April 23, 2025 • 36 mins
Krista St. Germain is a Post-Traumatic Growth and grief expert and host of the popular Widowed Moms Podcast, Krista has been able to take from her own experience and help thousands of widows navigate their lives after loss and not only survive, but thrive. Today, we chat about how grief is not linear, that the 5 stages are a myth, and how your brain is rewired through tragedy.
Follow me on Instagram:
Kathryn @kathryn_benko
Heart + Sole @heartandsolepodcast
Sole Fitness @sole_fitness
Follow Krista on Instagram: @lifecoachkrista
Check out her website HERE!
Listen to her podcast HERE!
Subscribe to our new YouTube Channel and WATCH all episodes!
Follow me on Instagram:
Kathryn @kathryn_benko
Heart + Sole @heartandsolepodcast
Sole Fitness @sole_fitness
Follow Krista on Instagram: @lifecoachkrista
Check out her website HERE!
Listen to her podcast HERE!
Subscribe to our new YouTube Channel and WATCH all episodes!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Heart and Soul Podcast with Catherine Banko.
I'm on a mission to celebrate breakthrough, empowerment and shameless
living in the lives of women everywhere. Join me and
let's live unashamed together.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to Heart and Soul Today.
I am joined by Christa Saint Germain, who is a
post traumatic growth and grief expert, and she's also the
host of her very own popular podcast called Widowed Mom's Podcast.
And today she's just gonna join us and share a
(00:34):
little bit about her story and how she stepped into
this line of work.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And so thank you so much for joining me today, Christa.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Where are you located.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
I'm in Wichita, Kansas, right in the middle.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Okay, gotcha? Ye. I'm in North Carolina, so on the
east coast.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
But I went to school.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I grew up in Dallas, and I went to school
in Oklahoma, Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
High school.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Sweetheart went to school in Kansas. So I always grew
up or and I always grew up in college. I
would go visit him like once a month in Kansas.
Speaker 5 (01:09):
Oh fun, small world. Where'd you go to school in Oklahoma?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I would owe you?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
But you okay, Boomer?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
All right, yeah, sooner. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, it's nice to meet you, and I hope to
get to know you a little bit more. Why don't
you just start out by sharing with my listeners a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
More about who you are and what you do, and
then we'll go from there.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Yeah. So I am a life coach for widowed moms.
That is my specialty, not really everything anything I ever
intended to do, to be honest, When I was forty,
I had just remarried second marriage. First one went down
in painful flames. Second marriage was like proof that good
humans do exist and you can have what you want
and be treated the way you want to be treated.
(01:50):
And then we got married in April and the end
of July we were coming back from a trip that
we had taken. We'd driven separately and had a flat
tire and we pulled over on the side of the interstate.
He wanted to change the tire, very stubborn human that
he was, didn't want to wait on triple A and
so bless him. You know, baby, I just want to
(02:12):
get home, and so standing on the side of the
road hazard lights on still daylight five point thirty on
a Sunday, and a driver who we later found out
had alcohol in his system as well as math, so
he was not having a great life, did not see us,
just crashed right in the back of Hugo's car and
trapped him in between his car and mine, And literally
(02:33):
it was like the whole rug got ripped out from
under me. And I went from my best daser in
front of me to it's a you know, like I'm
never going to be happy again. And I had a
really good therapist from my divorce before, so I went
back to her pretty fast, and she was amazing. But
I kind of pretty quickly realized that what I thought
(02:54):
I knew about grief and what I thought would be
helpful in grief wasn't really all that helpful and it
really wasn't very accurate. And so fast forward quite a
bit to a point where I discovered life coaching, and
I discovered and I had to do my own research
about grief and read and learn and see what worked
for me and what didn't. You know, I just got
myself to a place where I decided I didn't really
(03:15):
want other people to have the same experience that I had,
and so that's kind of how I came into this
work is I just decided, you know, I want to
be helpful, and so I quit my corporate job and
certified to become a coach.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
And that was you know. He died in twenty sixteen.
So here we are.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Wow. I am so sorry, thank you.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah, it was right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I cannot imagine not only losing a husband, but.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Also seeing it and it being.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So sudden, just like a typical, normal, everyday thing you
get a flat tire and change the tire, not thinking
what's that That was a possible outcome.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So I am so sorry, thank you. It sucks that
just like really sucks.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Indeed, that would be a good word for it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It's just horrible and I cannot imagine. And that was
you said in twenty sixteen, so nine years ago, and.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
You said you have In fact, there was our wedding
anniversary yesterday.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Oh I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
No, it's okay, thank you.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
But it's just wild how time passes grief. Time is weird.
But yes, I have two children, but I have a
At the time, my daughter was twelve and my youngest
was nine, and they're now twenty one and seventeen, and
then he had at the time, his son was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, Okay, So this horrible tragedy happens, and you go
back to your old therapist and found that it just
wasn't helpful.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
What happens next? Do you go and seek out a new.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Therapist or like, what are your next steps when you
find that that wasn't helpful for your grief?
Speaker 5 (04:58):
It actually was how helpful to an extent, it just
kind of had a limit. So the talking was really
helpful in the beginning because I didn't want to burden
anybody else with what was going on, and I, you know,
it was hard to be honest with the people that
you're close to. So that was such a gift to
be able to be honest and not worry about being
judged and just be able to kind of puke it
all out and like, you know, leave it in her office.
(05:20):
And then I got to a place that I now
call a grief plateau, which is where for me, I
was back to functioning and everybody was telling me how
great I was doing, and I was back to work,
and I was like checking the boxes right, the to
do list was getting done.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
The kids were getting to where they needed to.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Go, and so on the outside I looked like I
was doing fine, but on the inside, I didn't feel great.
You know, I felt like empty and kind of hollow
and just I was just calling it in and really
worried but kind of not willing to articulate it that
my best days were behind me.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Like that was one of the thoughts that.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
I had, like I'd be okay, I'd be happy, you know,
I'd just work for the kids and focus on them,
but my shot at happiness was probably gone. And it
was really just kind of serendipity that I happened to
have been following a life coach and listening to her podcast,
and she launched a program that was perfect for me.
It wasn't grief related, it was just general life coaching,
(06:16):
and so I joined that program, and the tools I
started to learn from her were what started to show me, oh,
that that idea that my best days are behind me
isn't actually true.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It's just something in my brain.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
I don't actually have to listen to that, but if
I keep listening to it, I'm in trouble, right because
I'm going to prove that true. And so I started
learning about mindset, and I started learning things that were
that started to move the needle in a way that
was different from what I was experiencing in therapy.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right, So, what were some of the tools that that
life coach kind of enlightened you on?
Speaker 5 (06:48):
First of all, I learned how to feel feelings?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Who knew?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Yeah, I mean like an actual way to do that.
I don't think that I was completely avoiding feelings, but
there were a lot of feelings that I was kind
of trying to get away from, you know, I was
like eating my feelings. I was shopping to get away
from feelings. And so I learned how to how to
actually feel them so that I didn't need to cover
them up with behaviors. And then the biggest piece was
(07:15):
just starting to see my thoughts as objects that I
could pick up and put down. Oh yeah, right, Like
it kind of blew my mind that, oh, you're not
actually your thoughts. You're the thinker of your thoughts, and
those thoughts are just things that float through your mind,
and they're just pathways in your brain, and they're just habits.
And so being able to separate myself from the thoughts
that were taking me away from what I wanted and
(07:36):
then choose new thoughts on purpose to take me toward
what I wanted. Like, yeah, you know, huge, huge change
in the trajectory of what I believed was possible for myself.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I love I love that idea, and it's something that
I used as well when I This whole podcast kind
of was birthed from twelve years ago thirteen years ago
with an eating disorder and then now thankfully I'm healed
and hopefully helping others break the breakthrough those lies in
(08:08):
their heads about who they are and their identity.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And that was one of the.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Tools that I learned, was to take every thought captive,
like you are not your thoughts, so this lie that
you might be hearing in your head is not necessarily true.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
And kind of the way you said that take every
thought captive.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, that's actually in the Bible, And so I read
that verse one day years ago and it just kind
of hit me in that specific season of life as
I was trying to navigate the lies and the truth
and anyway, yeah, it it became kind of my like
life verse because it's so true, like our thoughts, especially
(08:49):
if they are not true, they're like thoughts that we've
convinced ourselves are true.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
They have the ability to make us prisoner to them.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And so if we take it captive, then we actually
take the thought and we lock that thought up and
take it prisoner, and then we get to walk in
freedom because we've chosen to replace it with what is true.
So anyways, I love that tactic that you learned from
that life coach, and it's it's so helpful because there's
so many things that we think daily. I mean, it
(09:20):
could be anything from like you're running an errand and
you think and you should go here, and it's just like.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
The thoughts that I have in my head. I don't
understand those people.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Who are like I have no no thoughts.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's like what did they call that?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's like, do you an inner voice or something like?
I have no inner voice?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes I am. I am writing a.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Sai ye and I know what I'm not doing something
I'm not thinking about it, and that's just like mind
blowing to me.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So it is so important to learn that tactic, and
I'm so glad that you did.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
At what point point, after being encouraged by.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
This life coach that you connected with, did you decide
this is a path that I.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Want to take, like towards my Collie, my future.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
It was interesting because actually what I was pursuing first
was becoming a therapist. So my therapist said, you should
be a therapist, you know, because you go through something
like this and you all of a sudden you look
around and you're like, am I even doing what I
want to do on the planet? Like I don't really
like this job, Like it pays well, but do I
love it?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No?
Speaker 5 (10:31):
I didn't love it. My my husband loved it. We
worked together at the same company and he was an
engineer and it was his passion. He loved planes. I
didn't care. It was just a check to me. I
like the people there, but I didn't really care about
the job. So I was already kind of looking for
something that was going to feel more fulfilling to me.
And my therapist was saying, become a therapist. I'll help
you get into an MFT program. When you become a therapist,
(10:53):
you can come work for me when I retire. You
can buy my business, like she had like planned it
out and so, and I was on board. And so
I actually enrolled in an MFT program and I was
waiting for it to start. I was taking an abnormal
site class because I didn't have that in my undergrad
and I was waiting for this therapy program to start
in August. And at the same time, I enrolled in
this life coaching program. So I was like fully intending
(11:17):
just to be a client in this program. And then
I was like, hmm, this would be a good compliment
to being a therapist.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
And I was like, hmm, this could.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Be as I go through two years of MFT. Because
I was going to work full time and go through
this MFT program. I could do this as like a
side hustle.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
And then eventually I just kind of got to the
point where I was like, I don't I actually think
I want to do the coaching thing. I don't think
I really want to do the therapy thing. I'd gone
to their orientation. It didn't really feel like my people,
and so ultimately I pulled myself out of that MFT
program before it started. It was supposed to start like
late August early September, and I just put myself into
(11:52):
the Life Coaching program instead. Then I did that certification
that took from it started in August, and I finished
it in December, and then quit my job after that
in January. Wow, actually quit my job to go and
work for the Life Coach School where I had studied. Thankfully,
that did not work out. I only spent like six
weeks as an employee there, and since I had already
quit my job, I was I just decided, I'm not
(12:14):
going to go back.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I'm just going to figure this out. So I just
figured it out.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Mad respect for just like being bold with that and
you know, taking a leap of faith and hope.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Yeah, and it was a lot of like, you know,
definitely a leap of faith, but also just it really
just felt important to me to do something meaningful, right.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Okay, So grief, m.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, it's a tough topic and I feel like it's
different for everybody, and there's different levels of grief as well.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
The closest I've come to.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Very difficult grief was we've we've had four pregnancy losses.
And it's interesting you think you know how to grief
based off like what context tells you, and then you're
like in it and you're like, oh, that's that actually
is not that helpful.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
So five stages are of grief are What are they?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Okay? Do I have to say it?
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, Okay, all those things?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Hear I say that?
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Can you see nobody can see my face, but I'm
scrunching it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Okay, what's going to that?
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Then?
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
What what makes you scrunch your faith at the idea
of five stages of grief? And I'm using air quotes
because you can't just limit it to five stages, I'm sure.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
But it's just wild to me that something that was
created as a study of hospice patients, right, it was
about people coming to terms with their own mortality. It
wasn't even about what it's like to lose someone or something, right,
It was about I've been diagnosed with the terminal disease?
How do I reconcile with that? But I didn't say
I know, and most people don't, and that's why I
(13:56):
find so frustrating. And also, it was nineteen sixty nine.
It's twenty twenty five. Everything evolves, and somehow we have
just picked up on the five stages, And even though
there are many other grief theories, they just haven't gained traction,
and people don't talk about them. And so it's frustrating
to me as someone who went through something so significant,
(14:17):
and then also to watch all of my clients get
to that experience and then expect, right, they fall back
on this idea. Okay, well, first I'm supposed to be
in denial, then I'm supposed to get angry, and then
I'm supposed to bargain. And it makes me a little nuts.
And I do have great respect for Elizabeth kople Ross,
who created the Five Stages, especially given that in that
time nobody was even talking about it, so it's so
(14:40):
important and such a valuable conversation. And then also she
never meant for her work to be taken the way
that we took it. She never meant for it to
be staged or linear or to imply that grief ends.
And later in her life, you know, she reflected back
on that, and but it's still just what has caught
on and it drives me nuts.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I think also, well, one, I didn't know that that
was how it was, how it was creating.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
I think also it's kind of.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Naive to think that there's like you can compartmentalize grief
or your feelings in general. And I'm such an overthinker
just like it that way, and also a perfectionist.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So I was when I.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Was grieving, I was thinking like, well, I'm not in
this stage, so I'm not doing it right, Like, let
me take.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Steps back and like plan out my grief.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
And yes, it didn't work.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
It was not help it was not helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Sorry, So how can we What would you tell a
client who comes to you is grieving and is like,
these stages aren't working. How would you break it down
for them on how they can grieve?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Yeah, so I would say, of course, these stages aren't working.
That's not how it works. I would say all feelings
are fine in no particular order, right, And I mean
it's okay to feel relief in grief, It's okay to
feel joy in grief.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
It's not just the emotions that we tend to think
about is undesirable. All of the emotions are okay. It's
definitely not linear, and it's not something we're trying to
get to the end of because it doesn't end.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
So, grief is the natural human response to a perceived loss. Right,
So you had wanted those babies. It felt like a
loss to you obviously, and grief is the natural human
response to that. We're always going to have a response
and we can't undo the loss, which means the response
can change over time. Right, we can integrate the grief,
(16:44):
we can choose a response on purpose, and we're never
going to undo the loss.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
So there is no end.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
So this idea of acceptance, yes, it's lovely, and it's
not a finite place that we reach. Right, So you
might accept aspects of the loss, but then you have
secondary losses. Right. So now it would have been that
child's tenth birthday and that feels like a loss to you, right,
Or you go to someone else's wedding and your child
is not getting me like you know.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
So there's all.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
There's the initial loss that happens, and to some extent
we can choose to accept that, and then the secondary
losses keep coming. So it is don't make yourself wrong
for how you feel. There is no timeline here, there
are no stages. We're not trying to reach some fictional
place that doesn't exist. We're trying to support ourselves as
(17:36):
we integrate this grief experience into our lives so that
we can decide who we want to be given that
it's happened what we want to make of it totally.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's really, that's really true because there are, you know,
different dates that come up that might chegger some response.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And I think this idea with the.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Five stages of grief of accepted almost makes you feel
like you've accepted.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
So you forget it and you never really forget it.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I mean, sure you there's growth and you don't think
about it as often, or little things might not trigger
you as much, but.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
It's always there. It's a part of like your DNA now.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, and I think to forget it is almost a
loss in itself because it doesn't help you evolve as
it as a human. It creates empathy, it creates connection,
there's so many it can.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
It can help get you so much more aligned with
what you value. Yeah, so that you're you're taking action
from those values.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Okay, So post traumatic growth a topic I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
I've heard extress.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
You know you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Talk to me about your title a post traumatic growth expert.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So I didn't create post traumatic growth, but like you,
I hadn't heard of it either. But it was coined
in the mid nineties by a couple of researchers at
the time, what we thought was that when something quote
unquote traumatic happened right when, we thought of trauma differently
than than we do now, much more like objective, whereas
now we know it's very subjective. But the idea was like,
(19:10):
someone would be experiencing a certain level of wellness or
quality of life, something traumatic would happen, and then there
were two options. You would dip down and stay there,
or you could dip down and then eventually bounce back
to where you were. And what these researchers discovered was
there was a third option, which is you could dip down,
but not just bounce back. You could actually bounce forward.
(19:32):
And so they were noticing that people were going through
experiences that were traumatic and then choosing who they wanted
to be in the face of that right, deciding what
they wanted to make it mean, deciding how they wanted
to live. And as a result, we're experiencing higher levels
of life satisfaction or quality of life, not in spite
(19:52):
of what they had been through, but literally because of it.
And it's not a moral imperative, it's not superior, it's
just it's nice to know that it's an option.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I mean if you're not growing from it, then you're
not able to use that to like enhance other experiences,
or not even just enhance, but like to really feel
other things as well.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah. I would say.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
One thing for me that I gained from losing babies
is this level of empathy that I have for something
that is so common that I didn't realize was so common.
And I'm sure I'm sure anyone grieving has had these
thoughts of like, you know, growing up, you kind of
live in this like when you're a kid, this naivete
(20:34):
that's like so beautiful and innocent, and you think you
hear about bad things that happen, or you watch them
in movies and you think, oh, well, that just happens
to other people, it doesn't happen to me. And so
then when something does happen to someone else, it's like
you don't know how to meet them where they're at
unless you you too have like kind of experienced that
(20:56):
same kind of loss or I don't know, hurt. And
so for me it was it's been beneficial to see
to talk about what I went through with pregnancy loss
and to see all the people who like pour into
my DMS or call me if they're at a doctor's
appointment and they don't see a heartbeat or and that
(21:17):
level of empathy has made me grow so much as
a human and also value things differently, value my children
who are here differently, value experiences differently. So it really
is although trauma is what initiated, it really has evolved
into me growing as a human. You know, I'm sure
(21:38):
you prior to becoming a widow, never thought I'm going
to be a widow one day. That's not something you think.
What happened to you? It's something you.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
See happens to other people every now and then, but
it's not going to happen to me.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So how do you feel like this concept of post
traumatic growth impacted you personally? Not just your business and
how people, but you and your grief?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean in so many ways.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
So for one, just greater life satisfaction, and that is
related to my business because that was growth for me,
right to recognize, Oh, I'm not actually doing what I
want to be doing every day, So now I do
what I want to be doing every day. Is it
amazing all the time?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
No? But is it meaningful? Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right?
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Also, relationships changes in relationships can be a really big
part of post traumatic growth. I think, you know, when
you go through something big like that, one of the
opportunities it gives you is the chance to pull back
and just reassess how am I in relationship with people?
Who am I in relationship with people? Are there people
that you know, I'm investing a lot of time in
(22:43):
that aren't investing time in me? Are there are there
people I've you know, relationships that were meant for a
season that I am clinging to and it's not really
working for anymore, that need to be right sized or
closed or you know. So it just really gives you
the opportunity to look around and go my living life
aligned with what I value here?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
You know, so much of a greater appreciation for.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Life can be a part of post traumatic growth, right,
Like I remember just being so sad and also completely
grateful for the littlest things.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, and both exist.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yes, It's like you all of a sudden you realize,
oh wow, it is precious. It can be taken away.
People you love can be taken away unexpectedly, which for
me made me want to show up differently in relationships.
For a lot of people it can be really spiritual. Right,
So you grow up with this particular faith perspective or
beliefs that you've learned, and maybe you didn't choose them
(23:40):
for yourself. Maybe you're just going along with the programming
that you grew up with, right, And then for a
lot of people, that's when they stop and they go, wait,
wait a minute, is this what I believe? Is this
working for me? And maybe ultimately it is, and maybe
ultimately it's not. But then they get to choose for themselves,
and so their spiritual lives get richer and deeper because
(24:00):
of what they've done in the aftermath.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
How did people when you first experienced your loss? In
what ways did people show up for you that were
very helpful? And in what ways did they show up
for you that were just not it?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
The people who were like acts of service people really
weren't just such gems. I mean, so many people just
kind of took over and started doing things for me.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I didn't even.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Know what planet I was on there for a while,
So to have some people I knew just come over
and mow my lawn, and one of my friends just
went and bought my kids' school supplies.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
So I didn't have to worry about it.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
And you know, things like that were really helpful. Also,
any friend who was willing to just come and be
with me and not try to change how I was feeling,
not try to cheer me up.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, such a gift.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
That was the opposite of that was what was most
difficult to deal with. And I see it now, I
see you know, we've been taught to believe that feelings
are problems and that we don't really have much of
a capacity to be with other people people in their pain.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
If we're uncomfortable with their pain, we want to say things, Oh,
they're in a better place and at least you're young
and you can try again, and you know he would
want you to be happy and the But we say
those things because we don't know how to be okay
when other people aren't okay.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And so yeah, I just remember so much of that.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
I knew their hearts were in the right place, but
I didn't want to be cheered up.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Yeah, and I didn't want to find a silver lightning.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I think I learned that a lot too.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Is what helped me is people showing up and saying
like this freaking sucks.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Yes, and I'm here with you and I'm just in it.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then there where other people like everything happens for
a reason. Well, if you didn't lose this baby, then
you wouldn't get this baby. And it's like, you know,
their heart is not in, their intentions are not negative.
You know they're really trying to help in the capacity
that they have and that they know how to. But
it wasn't helpful. It didn't cheer me up, but didn't
(25:57):
make me like have aha moment. I'm like, oh, that's
why that happen.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, oh did.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
It happen for a reason.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But the people who just sat with me, drank wine
with me, let me cry, let me escape. I had
one frame come over and we just watched movies, and
I was like, I don't want to talk.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
I don't want to talk about anything going on in life.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Let's just watch Moviesah, let's escape, and she's like, right, cool,
I'll sit.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Here and I'll watch movies with you. And that was huge.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
So yeah, which, by the way, can I tell you
how well that fits into my favorite grief theory please,
Because some people might say that's avoiding grief. So my
favorite grief theory is called the dual process model, and
essentially what it does is it divides anything we do
after a loss into two categories. So there's the loss
related category, so it's like thinking about it, feeling about it,
logistics of it, right, dealing with it, and then anything
(26:46):
else restorative. So that's distracting from it, taking a break
from it, laughing Netflix binges, watching a movie and saying
I don't want to talk about it, right, healthy distraction.
And most of us, especially like you said, you're a
perfectionist and you were going to get a you know
that was me too. We are less inclined to give
ourselves a break when we think that what we're supposed
(27:07):
to be doing is doing the work of grief quote unquote,
and so then we can make ourselves feel guilty when
we actually take a break.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
But really, what.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
The dual process model says is that that's where healing is,
is the oscillation back and forth, back and forth. So
we take a break, we distract ourselves from it, and
then we deal with it, and we take a break,
and then we deal with it back and forth, back
and forth. And most of us women especially, we have
a harder time letting ourselves take a break, and we
guilt ourselves when we do that, and so I think
(27:36):
it's that's why I love hearing about that one, because
it's so important to just yeah, zone out, take a break,
distract yourself. That's nothing to feel guilty about. It's actually healing.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, no, that I hope that that What you just
said free someone up who's listening to this right now, is.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
You don't have to get through a checklist that in
order to heal.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I mean, maybe part of it is just escaping for
a little bit and enjoying like a sense of relief
from all the stuff going on in your in your
current world.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's so helpful to do that.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
One thing that someone did for me, or someone asked
me when I was grieving was what or how can
I best be there for you right now?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
And that question really was.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Really nice to hear because typically people just take charge
and do what they think is right for you in
the moment. And so now I've like really used that
question a lot when that people are experiencing loss or
grief in some way, I'm just like, what do you need?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Do you want me to drop off a meal.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you want me to not talk to you for
a couple of days and give you time to process
what do you need? Because everyone is different, everyone processes differently,
and that question really freed me up.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
And what someone needs today might not be what they
need to tomorrow. And so I think it's important to
give ourselves permission to let our answer change, or to
let ourselves kind of not know. Yeah, because sometimes you
just you're like, I don't even know what I need. Yeah,
you know, and that's that's an okay answer to But
I love that question.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I like that answer too, Like sometimes it's today I
might need this, and tomorrow I might need that, and
that's okay, and I don't know what I need right now.
This has been so enlightening. What is like one thing
you want to leave my listeners with who are possibly
dealing with grief or have someone in their life who
is dealing with that. What's like one aha thing want
(29:37):
post it? No little piece of encouragement that you want
to leave them with.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
You know, I would love for people to also know
about the role of time in grief because a lot
of us are walking around believing that time heals all
wounds and because it is an ism, we love anism, yes,
and and it's a little bit more nuanced than that, right,
So it's for sure. It wouldn't it be lovely if
(30:04):
time just passed? And that's all we had to do
is wait for time to pass. But that's not all
we have to do, you know. We have to figure
out how to support ourselves as time passes. Right, we
have to figure out how do I, how do I
create enough safety in my body that I can feel
what I'm feeling. And then also there is a role
that time does play, and so we want to we
(30:26):
want to understand that what is happening as time passes
is that in our brain is relearning, so especially when
it comes to spousal loss, but really anything that's that's
really important.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Our brain has a way, in order to meet our
attachment needs of predicting with relative certainty where our person is,
when we're going to see them again, how long it
will take to get to them, so that we don't
have to be thinking about that every day, every moment
of every day. Right. But when they die or when
we experience a significant loss, even if it's not a
death loss, it takes time for our brain to get
(30:59):
enough exposure to the new reality to update the predictions
that it makes. And so it's really normal to intellectually
know that it happened, but to keep acting or feeling
like it didn't. And that doesn't mean you're in denial.
That just means your brain is relearning and it needs
more exposure to the new data to stop telling you
(31:20):
that I should pick up the phone and tell them
about my day, or when I reach over in the pillow,
they should be there, or you know, whatever it is.
And so don't make yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Wrong for that.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Just know that your brain is learning and that's a
very important part of grief, and that really only.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Does happen with the passage of time.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Wow, I'm like seeing two different things.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
One is like when you need an update for your
phone and you have to have to take the time
to like plug it in and connect it to Wi
Fi and it takes forever to update, and then you
have to.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Relearn your phone.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Almost Yeah, your brain is like downloading new software as
you're going through time, and you have to relearn yourself
and relearn your new normal. And then also I'm sure
you have, but have you seen the movie inside Out.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Oh my gosh, my favorite, literally, my favorite movie ever.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
We watched that all the time in my house because
I have three year old. It kind of makes me
think when you were saying the brain is like relearning,
Like we have these little people in our head who
are like storing up new memories and downloading new I
don't know, new processes for going through things. And they
it was the movies about a teenage girl who's just
(32:33):
changing in life.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Is hard for a teenage girl, but I think it's
true for all of us.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It's like, if you could just think about these little
characteristics in your brain that are just doing work for you.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Yeah, that and one day, and there's so much, I mean,
I could. I've literally done podcast episodes on Inside Out,
that's how obsessed I am with it. Like even just
the role of sadness, Yes, but I still like the
first one more.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I do too.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I really the takeaway for me is so big that
the value of sadness and just you know, not thinking
that not approaching life is though joy is superior, but
really just yeah, yeah, all of it such a good
so many good lessons and their picks are I know.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And then the second one, although not as good. The
anxiety aspect was interesting for especially for a teenage girl,
because you know, we watched her as a kid in
the first one, and then she's growing up, she's like
having all these like yeah questions.
Speaker 5 (33:26):
And grief has so many parallels to Riley's experience in
the second one, right, because it's it's a full body, hormonal,
unexpected thing that happens. And anxiety is often such a
big piece of grief too that people don't expect. We
look at teenagers and we expect it for them. You know,
they may not expect it for themselves, but we don't
often think that our confidence is going to take a
(33:47):
hit or anxiety is going to become more prevalent. But really, grief,
I mean, there's nothing in your body that's not affected.
Your hormones are off, you're not sleeping, Like it is
a whole thing. Yeah, it's so common to have that
just complete disruptive feeling like you're under construction. Who even
am I anymore? What is happening to me?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Experience?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So I guess listeners, give yourself grace whatever part of
the process you're in, because time doesn't heal all wounds,
but time will change you and rewrite your brain and
give yourself grace in between, because we all need it,
whether it's with grief or something else in our life.
We just are constantly evolving and changing and life is
(34:28):
really really hard. You're here, give yourself some grace. We're
all just kind of figured it out together. Okay, what
is the best way for my listeners to connect with
you and to hear more of your wisdom?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
So the Widowed Mom podcast is my podcast, and anybody
is welcome to listen. It's not just for widows. I
talk all about grief and post traumatic growth. And then
also I created a download downloadable journal that anybody is
welcomed have if they want, and it is called Memories
That Matter. One of my biggest fears after Hugo died
was that I would forget my memories of him, and
(35:07):
so later I wrote down one hundred journal prompts to
help you remember your person. So if anybody love that, Yeah,
if anybody would like that or would like to give
it to another widow or use it for themselves, they're
welcome to have it. It's at coaching with Krista Krista
dot com, Forward slash Heart and they can just go
there and get that for themselves and share it with
(35:27):
anyone they want.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Perfect and I will put all those links in the
show notes listeners so that you can find it easy.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Thank you so.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Much for being vulnerable and sharing your story to everyone
through your podcast and through other podcasts. It's a lot
a lot of people need to hear your story and so.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
I love doing it.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Thank you for being willing to talk about hard things
and grief because so many people don't want to talk
about it. And it's conversations like this that I think
will prepare people for their next grief because maybe they're
going through it right now, maybe they're not, maybe they're
trying to support someone. But kudos to you for you know,
wanting to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Well, I think that's just it.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Also is it is inevitable you will experience some type
of grief on some level.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Yeah, and you're probably right now.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, maybe you are right now ten times in your life.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And so to have these types of conversations to fall
back on is huge for people to know how to
navigate through their own grief.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'm definitely going to be tuning into your podcast and
I hope to connect with you again.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
In the future.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Same Catherine.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
All Right, listeners, I will be back next week with
another special guest, and I will talk to you a
bit bye.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thanks for listening to Heart and Soul. If this episode
encouraged you in any way, please leave a review on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get to your podcast.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Talk to you next week.
You're listening to the Heart and Soul Podcast with Catherine Banko.
I'm on a mission to celebrate breakthrough, empowerment and shameless
living in the lives of women everywhere. Join me and
let's live unashamed together.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to Heart and Soul Today.
I am joined by Christa Saint Germain, who is a
post traumatic growth and grief expert, and she's also the
host of her very own popular podcast called Widowed Mom's Podcast.
And today she's just gonna join us and share a
(00:34):
little bit about her story and how she stepped into
this line of work.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
And so thank you so much for joining me today, Christa.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Where are you located.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
I'm in Wichita, Kansas, right in the middle.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Okay, gotcha? Ye. I'm in North Carolina, so on the
east coast.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
But I went to school.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I grew up in Dallas, and I went to school
in Oklahoma, Okay.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
High school.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Sweetheart went to school in Kansas. So I always grew
up or and I always grew up in college. I
would go visit him like once a month in Kansas.
Speaker 5 (01:09):
Oh fun, small world. Where'd you go to school in Oklahoma?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
I would owe you?
Speaker 4 (01:13):
But you okay, Boomer?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
All right, yeah, sooner. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Well, it's nice to meet you, and I hope to
get to know you a little bit more. Why don't
you just start out by sharing with my listeners a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
More about who you are and what you do, and
then we'll go from there.
Speaker 5 (01:29):
Yeah. So I am a life coach for widowed moms.
That is my specialty, not really everything anything I ever
intended to do, to be honest, When I was forty,
I had just remarried second marriage. First one went down
in painful flames. Second marriage was like proof that good
humans do exist and you can have what you want
and be treated the way you want to be treated.
(01:50):
And then we got married in April and the end
of July we were coming back from a trip that
we had taken. We'd driven separately and had a flat
tire and we pulled over on the side of the interstate.
He wanted to change the tire, very stubborn human that
he was, didn't want to wait on triple A and
so bless him. You know, baby, I just want to
(02:12):
get home, and so standing on the side of the
road hazard lights on still daylight five point thirty on
a Sunday, and a driver who we later found out
had alcohol in his system as well as math, so
he was not having a great life, did not see us,
just crashed right in the back of Hugo's car and
trapped him in between his car and mine, And literally
(02:33):
it was like the whole rug got ripped out from
under me. And I went from my best daser in
front of me to it's a you know, like I'm
never going to be happy again. And I had a
really good therapist from my divorce before, so I went
back to her pretty fast, and she was amazing. But
I kind of pretty quickly realized that what I thought
(02:54):
I knew about grief and what I thought would be
helpful in grief wasn't really all that helpful and it
really wasn't very accurate. And so fast forward quite a
bit to a point where I discovered life coaching, and
I discovered and I had to do my own research
about grief and read and learn and see what worked
for me and what didn't. You know, I just got
myself to a place where I decided I didn't really
(03:15):
want other people to have the same experience that I had,
and so that's kind of how I came into this
work is I just decided, you know, I want to
be helpful, and so I quit my corporate job and
certified to become a coach.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
And that was you know. He died in twenty sixteen.
So here we are.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Wow. I am so sorry, thank you.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Yeah, it was right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
I cannot imagine not only losing a husband, but.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Also seeing it and it being.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
So sudden, just like a typical, normal, everyday thing you
get a flat tire and change the tire, not thinking
what's that That was a possible outcome.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So I am so sorry, thank you. It sucks that
just like really sucks.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
Indeed, that would be a good word for it.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It's just horrible and I cannot imagine. And that was
you said in twenty sixteen, so nine years ago, and.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
You said you have In fact, there was our wedding
anniversary yesterday.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Oh I'm so sorry.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
No, it's okay, thank you.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
But it's just wild how time passes grief. Time is weird.
But yes, I have two children, but I have a
At the time, my daughter was twelve and my youngest
was nine, and they're now twenty one and seventeen, and
then he had at the time, his son was seventeen.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Okay, Okay, So this horrible tragedy happens, and you go
back to your old therapist and found that it just
wasn't helpful.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
What happens next? Do you go and seek out a new.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Therapist or like, what are your next steps when you
find that that wasn't helpful for your grief?
Speaker 5 (04:58):
It actually was how helpful to an extent, it just
kind of had a limit. So the talking was really
helpful in the beginning because I didn't want to burden
anybody else with what was going on, and I, you know,
it was hard to be honest with the people that
you're close to. So that was such a gift to
be able to be honest and not worry about being
judged and just be able to kind of puke it
all out and like, you know, leave it in her office.
(05:20):
And then I got to a place that I now
call a grief plateau, which is where for me, I
was back to functioning and everybody was telling me how
great I was doing, and I was back to work,
and I was like checking the boxes right, the to
do list was getting done.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
The kids were getting to where they needed to.
Speaker 5 (05:36):
Go, and so on the outside I looked like I
was doing fine, but on the inside, I didn't feel great.
You know, I felt like empty and kind of hollow
and just I was just calling it in and really
worried but kind of not willing to articulate it that
my best days were behind me.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
Like that was one of the thoughts that.
Speaker 5 (05:54):
I had, like I'd be okay, I'd be happy, you know,
I'd just work for the kids and focus on them,
but my shot at happiness was probably gone. And it
was really just kind of serendipity that I happened to
have been following a life coach and listening to her podcast,
and she launched a program that was perfect for me.
It wasn't grief related, it was just general life coaching,
(06:16):
and so I joined that program, and the tools I
started to learn from her were what started to show me, oh,
that that idea that my best days are behind me
isn't actually true.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
It's just something in my brain.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
I don't actually have to listen to that, but if
I keep listening to it, I'm in trouble, right because
I'm going to prove that true. And so I started
learning about mindset, and I started learning things that were
that started to move the needle in a way that
was different from what I was experiencing in therapy.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Right, So, what were some of the tools that that
life coach kind of enlightened you on?
Speaker 5 (06:48):
First of all, I learned how to feel feelings?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Who knew?
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Yeah, I mean like an actual way to do that.
I don't think that I was completely avoiding feelings, but
there were a lot of feelings that I was kind
of trying to get away from, you know, I was
like eating my feelings. I was shopping to get away
from feelings. And so I learned how to how to
actually feel them so that I didn't need to cover
them up with behaviors. And then the biggest piece was
(07:15):
just starting to see my thoughts as objects that I
could pick up and put down. Oh yeah, right, Like
it kind of blew my mind that, oh, you're not
actually your thoughts. You're the thinker of your thoughts, and
those thoughts are just things that float through your mind,
and they're just pathways in your brain, and they're just habits.
And so being able to separate myself from the thoughts
that were taking me away from what I wanted and
(07:36):
then choose new thoughts on purpose to take me toward
what I wanted. Like, yeah, you know, huge, huge change
in the trajectory of what I believed was possible for myself.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I love I love that idea, and it's something that
I used as well when I This whole podcast kind
of was birthed from twelve years ago thirteen years ago
with an eating disorder and then now thankfully I'm healed
and hopefully helping others break the breakthrough those lies in
(08:08):
their heads about who they are and their identity.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
And that was one of the.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Tools that I learned, was to take every thought captive,
like you are not your thoughts, so this lie that
you might be hearing in your head is not necessarily true.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
And kind of the way you said that take every
thought captive.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, that's actually in the Bible, And so I read
that verse one day years ago and it just kind
of hit me in that specific season of life as
I was trying to navigate the lies and the truth
and anyway, yeah, it it became kind of my like
life verse because it's so true, like our thoughts, especially
(08:49):
if they are not true, they're like thoughts that we've
convinced ourselves are true.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
They have the ability to make us prisoner to them.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And so if we take it captive, then we actually
take the thought and we lock that thought up and
take it prisoner, and then we get to walk in
freedom because we've chosen to replace it with what is true.
So anyways, I love that tactic that you learned from
that life coach, and it's it's so helpful because there's
so many things that we think daily. I mean, it
(09:20):
could be anything from like you're running an errand and
you think and you should go here, and it's just like.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
The thoughts that I have in my head. I don't
understand those people.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Who are like I have no no thoughts.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's like what did they call that?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
It's like, do you an inner voice or something like?
I have no inner voice?
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yes I am. I am writing a.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Sai ye and I know what I'm not doing something
I'm not thinking about it, and that's just like mind
blowing to me.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
So it is so important to learn that tactic, and
I'm so glad that you did.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
At what point point, after being encouraged by.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
This life coach that you connected with, did you decide
this is a path that I.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Want to take, like towards my Collie, my future.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Yeah, it was.
Speaker 5 (10:11):
It was interesting because actually what I was pursuing first
was becoming a therapist. So my therapist said, you should
be a therapist, you know, because you go through something
like this and you all of a sudden you look
around and you're like, am I even doing what I
want to do on the planet? Like I don't really
like this job, Like it pays well, but do I
love it?
Speaker 2 (10:31):
No?
Speaker 5 (10:31):
I didn't love it. My my husband loved it. We
worked together at the same company and he was an
engineer and it was his passion. He loved planes. I
didn't care. It was just a check to me. I
like the people there, but I didn't really care about
the job. So I was already kind of looking for
something that was going to feel more fulfilling to me.
And my therapist was saying, become a therapist. I'll help
you get into an MFT program. When you become a therapist,
(10:53):
you can come work for me when I retire. You
can buy my business, like she had like planned it
out and so, and I was on board. And so
I actually enrolled in an MFT program and I was
waiting for it to start. I was taking an abnormal
site class because I didn't have that in my undergrad
and I was waiting for this therapy program to start
in August. And at the same time, I enrolled in
this life coaching program. So I was like fully intending
(11:17):
just to be a client in this program. And then
I was like, hmm, this would be a good compliment
to being a therapist.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
And I was like, hmm, this could.
Speaker 5 (11:24):
Be as I go through two years of MFT. Because
I was going to work full time and go through
this MFT program. I could do this as like a
side hustle.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
And then eventually I just kind of got to the
point where I was like, I don't I actually think
I want to do the coaching thing. I don't think
I really want to do the therapy thing. I'd gone
to their orientation. It didn't really feel like my people,
and so ultimately I pulled myself out of that MFT
program before it started. It was supposed to start like
late August early September, and I just put myself into
(11:52):
the Life Coaching program instead. Then I did that certification
that took from it started in August, and I finished
it in December, and then quit my job after that
in January. Wow, actually quit my job to go and
work for the Life Coach School where I had studied. Thankfully,
that did not work out. I only spent like six
weeks as an employee there, and since I had already
quit my job, I was I just decided, I'm not
(12:14):
going to go back.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I'm just going to figure this out. So I just
figured it out.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
That's cool.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Mad respect for just like being bold with that and
you know, taking a leap of faith and hope.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Yeah, and it was a lot of like, you know,
definitely a leap of faith, but also just it really
just felt important to me to do something meaningful, right.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Okay, So grief, m.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, it's a tough topic and I feel like it's
different for everybody, and there's different levels of grief as well.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
The closest I've come to.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Very difficult grief was we've we've had four pregnancy losses.
And it's interesting you think you know how to grief
based off like what context tells you, and then you're
like in it and you're like, oh, that's that actually
is not that helpful.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
So five stages are of grief are What are they?
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Okay? Do I have to say it?
Speaker 5 (13:14):
Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance, Okay, all those things?
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Hear I say that?
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Can you see nobody can see my face, but I'm
scrunching it.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Okay, what's going to that?
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Then?
Speaker 5 (13:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:25):
What what makes you scrunch your faith at the idea
of five stages of grief? And I'm using air quotes
because you can't just limit it to five stages, I'm sure.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
But it's just wild to me that something that was
created as a study of hospice patients, right, it was
about people coming to terms with their own mortality. It
wasn't even about what it's like to lose someone or something, right,
It was about I've been diagnosed with the terminal disease?
How do I reconcile with that? But I didn't say
I know, and most people don't, and that's why I
(13:56):
find so frustrating. And also, it was nineteen sixty nine.
It's twenty twenty five. Everything evolves, and somehow we have
just picked up on the five stages, And even though
there are many other grief theories, they just haven't gained traction,
and people don't talk about them. And so it's frustrating
to me as someone who went through something so significant,
(14:17):
and then also to watch all of my clients get
to that experience and then expect, right, they fall back
on this idea. Okay, well, first I'm supposed to be
in denial, then I'm supposed to get angry, and then
I'm supposed to bargain. And it makes me a little nuts.
And I do have great respect for Elizabeth kople Ross,
who created the Five Stages, especially given that in that
time nobody was even talking about it, so it's so
(14:40):
important and such a valuable conversation. And then also she
never meant for her work to be taken the way
that we took it. She never meant for it to
be staged or linear or to imply that grief ends.
And later in her life, you know, she reflected back
on that, and but it's still just what has caught
on and it drives me nuts.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I think also, well, one, I didn't know that that
was how it was, how it was creating.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
I think also it's kind of.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Naive to think that there's like you can compartmentalize grief
or your feelings in general. And I'm such an overthinker
just like it that way, and also a perfectionist.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
So I was when I.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Was grieving, I was thinking like, well, I'm not in
this stage, so I'm not doing it right, Like, let
me take.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Steps back and like plan out my grief.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
And yes, it didn't work.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
It was not help it was not helpful.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Sorry, So how can we What would you tell a
client who comes to you is grieving and is like,
these stages aren't working. How would you break it down
for them on how they can grieve?
Speaker 5 (15:59):
Yeah, so I would say, of course, these stages aren't working.
That's not how it works. I would say all feelings
are fine in no particular order, right, And I mean
it's okay to feel relief in grief, It's okay to
feel joy in grief.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:12):
It's not just the emotions that we tend to think
about is undesirable. All of the emotions are okay. It's
definitely not linear, and it's not something we're trying to
get to the end of because it doesn't end.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:23):
So, grief is the natural human response to a perceived loss. Right,
So you had wanted those babies. It felt like a
loss to you obviously, and grief is the natural human
response to that. We're always going to have a response
and we can't undo the loss, which means the response
can change over time. Right, we can integrate the grief,
(16:44):
we can choose a response on purpose, and we're never
going to undo the loss.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
So there is no end.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Right.
Speaker 5 (16:51):
So this idea of acceptance, yes, it's lovely, and it's
not a finite place that we reach. Right, So you
might accept aspects of the loss, but then you have
secondary losses. Right. So now it would have been that
child's tenth birthday and that feels like a loss to you, right,
Or you go to someone else's wedding and your child
is not getting me like you know.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
So there's all.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
There's the initial loss that happens, and to some extent
we can choose to accept that, and then the secondary
losses keep coming. So it is don't make yourself wrong
for how you feel. There is no timeline here, there
are no stages. We're not trying to reach some fictional
place that doesn't exist. We're trying to support ourselves as
(17:36):
we integrate this grief experience into our lives so that
we can decide who we want to be given that
it's happened what we want to make of it totally.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's really, that's really true because there are, you know,
different dates that come up that might chegger some response.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
And I think this idea with the.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Five stages of grief of accepted almost makes you feel
like you've accepted.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
So you forget it and you never really forget it.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
I mean, sure you there's growth and you don't think
about it as often, or little things might not trigger
you as much, but.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
It's always there. It's a part of like your DNA now.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, and I think to forget it is almost a
loss in itself because it doesn't help you evolve as
it as a human. It creates empathy, it creates connection,
there's so many it can.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
It can help get you so much more aligned with
what you value. Yeah, so that you're you're taking action
from those values.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Okay, So post traumatic growth a topic I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
I've heard extress.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
You know you're not alone.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Talk to me about your title a post traumatic growth expert.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So I didn't create post traumatic growth, but like you,
I hadn't heard of it either. But it was coined
in the mid nineties by a couple of researchers at
the time, what we thought was that when something quote
unquote traumatic happened right when, we thought of trauma differently
than than we do now, much more like objective, whereas
now we know it's very subjective. But the idea was like,
(19:10):
someone would be experiencing a certain level of wellness or
quality of life, something traumatic would happen, and then there
were two options. You would dip down and stay there,
or you could dip down and then eventually bounce back
to where you were. And what these researchers discovered was
there was a third option, which is you could dip down,
but not just bounce back. You could actually bounce forward.
(19:32):
And so they were noticing that people were going through
experiences that were traumatic and then choosing who they wanted
to be in the face of that right, deciding what
they wanted to make it mean, deciding how they wanted
to live. And as a result, we're experiencing higher levels
of life satisfaction or quality of life, not in spite
(19:52):
of what they had been through, but literally because of it.
And it's not a moral imperative, it's not superior, it's
just it's nice to know that it's an option.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
I mean if you're not growing from it, then you're
not able to use that to like enhance other experiences,
or not even just enhance, but like to really feel
other things as well.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Yeah. I would say.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
One thing for me that I gained from losing babies
is this level of empathy that I have for something
that is so common that I didn't realize was so common.
And I'm sure I'm sure anyone grieving has had these
thoughts of like, you know, growing up, you kind of
live in this like when you're a kid, this naivete
(20:34):
that's like so beautiful and innocent, and you think you
hear about bad things that happen, or you watch them
in movies and you think, oh, well, that just happens
to other people, it doesn't happen to me. And so
then when something does happen to someone else, it's like
you don't know how to meet them where they're at
unless you you too have like kind of experienced that
(20:56):
same kind of loss or I don't know, hurt. And
so for me it was it's been beneficial to see
to talk about what I went through with pregnancy loss
and to see all the people who like pour into
my DMS or call me if they're at a doctor's
appointment and they don't see a heartbeat or and that
(21:17):
level of empathy has made me grow so much as
a human and also value things differently, value my children
who are here differently, value experiences differently. So it really
is although trauma is what initiated, it really has evolved
into me growing as a human. You know, I'm sure
(21:38):
you prior to becoming a widow, never thought I'm going
to be a widow one day. That's not something you think.
What happened to you? It's something you.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
See happens to other people every now and then, but
it's not going to happen to me.
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
So how do you feel like this concept of post
traumatic growth impacted you personally? Not just your business and
how people, but you and your grief?
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean in so many ways.
Speaker 5 (22:06):
So for one, just greater life satisfaction, and that is
related to my business because that was growth for me,
right to recognize, Oh, I'm not actually doing what I
want to be doing every day, So now I do
what I want to be doing every day. Is it
amazing all the time?
Speaker 4 (22:20):
No? But is it meaningful? Yes?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Right?
Speaker 5 (22:22):
Also, relationships changes in relationships can be a really big
part of post traumatic growth. I think, you know, when
you go through something big like that, one of the
opportunities it gives you is the chance to pull back
and just reassess how am I in relationship with people?
Who am I in relationship with people? Are there people
that you know, I'm investing a lot of time in
(22:43):
that aren't investing time in me? Are there are there
people I've you know, relationships that were meant for a
season that I am clinging to and it's not really
working for anymore, that need to be right sized or
closed or you know. So it just really gives you
the opportunity to look around and go my living life
aligned with what I value here?
Speaker 4 (23:03):
You know, so much of a greater appreciation for.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Life can be a part of post traumatic growth, right,
Like I remember just being so sad and also completely
grateful for the littlest things.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, and both exist.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
Yes, It's like you all of a sudden you realize,
oh wow, it is precious. It can be taken away.
People you love can be taken away unexpectedly, which for
me made me want to show up differently in relationships.
For a lot of people it can be really spiritual. Right,
So you grow up with this particular faith perspective or
beliefs that you've learned, and maybe you didn't choose them
(23:40):
for yourself. Maybe you're just going along with the programming
that you grew up with, right, And then for a
lot of people, that's when they stop and they go, wait,
wait a minute, is this what I believe? Is this
working for me? And maybe ultimately it is, and maybe
ultimately it's not. But then they get to choose for themselves,
and so their spiritual lives get richer and deeper because
(24:00):
of what they've done in the aftermath.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
How did people when you first experienced your loss? In
what ways did people show up for you that were
very helpful? And in what ways did they show up
for you that were just not it?
Speaker 3 (24:14):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:16):
The people who were like acts of service people really
weren't just such gems. I mean, so many people just
kind of took over and started doing things for me.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I didn't even.
Speaker 5 (24:25):
Know what planet I was on there for a while,
So to have some people I knew just come over
and mow my lawn, and one of my friends just
went and bought my kids' school supplies.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
So I didn't have to worry about it.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
And you know, things like that were really helpful. Also,
any friend who was willing to just come and be
with me and not try to change how I was feeling,
not try to cheer me up.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Yeah, such a gift.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
That was the opposite of that was what was most
difficult to deal with. And I see it now, I
see you know, we've been taught to believe that feelings
are problems and that we don't really have much of
a capacity to be with other people people in their pain.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Right.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
If we're uncomfortable with their pain, we want to say things, Oh,
they're in a better place and at least you're young
and you can try again, and you know he would
want you to be happy and the But we say
those things because we don't know how to be okay
when other people aren't okay.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
And so yeah, I just remember so much of that.
Speaker 5 (25:19):
I knew their hearts were in the right place, but
I didn't want to be cheered up.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Yeah, and I didn't want to find a silver lightning.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I think I learned that a lot too.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Is what helped me is people showing up and saying
like this freaking sucks.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
Yes, and I'm here with you and I'm just in it.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And then there where other people like everything happens for
a reason. Well, if you didn't lose this baby, then
you wouldn't get this baby. And it's like, you know,
their heart is not in, their intentions are not negative.
You know they're really trying to help in the capacity
that they have and that they know how to. But
it wasn't helpful. It didn't cheer me up, but didn't
(25:57):
make me like have aha moment. I'm like, oh, that's
why that happen.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, oh did.
Speaker 5 (26:01):
It happen for a reason.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Thank you so much for pointing that out.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
But the people who just sat with me, drank wine
with me, let me cry, let me escape. I had
one frame come over and we just watched movies, and
I was like, I don't want to talk.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
I don't want to talk about anything going on in life.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Let's just watch Moviesah, let's escape, and she's like, right, cool,
I'll sit.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Here and I'll watch movies with you. And that was huge.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
So yeah, which, by the way, can I tell you
how well that fits into my favorite grief theory please,
Because some people might say that's avoiding grief. So my
favorite grief theory is called the dual process model, and
essentially what it does is it divides anything we do
after a loss into two categories. So there's the loss
related category, so it's like thinking about it, feeling about it,
logistics of it, right, dealing with it, and then anything
(26:46):
else restorative. So that's distracting from it, taking a break
from it, laughing Netflix binges, watching a movie and saying
I don't want to talk about it, right, healthy distraction.
And most of us, especially like you said, you're a
perfectionist and you were going to get a you know
that was me too. We are less inclined to give
ourselves a break when we think that what we're supposed
(27:07):
to be doing is doing the work of grief quote unquote,
and so then we can make ourselves feel guilty when
we actually take a break.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
But really, what.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
The dual process model says is that that's where healing is,
is the oscillation back and forth, back and forth. So
we take a break, we distract ourselves from it, and
then we deal with it, and we take a break,
and then we deal with it back and forth, back
and forth. And most of us women especially, we have
a harder time letting ourselves take a break, and we
guilt ourselves when we do that, and so I think
(27:36):
it's that's why I love hearing about that one, because
it's so important to just yeah, zone out, take a break,
distract yourself. That's nothing to feel guilty about. It's actually healing.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Yeah, no, that I hope that that What you just
said free someone up who's listening to this right now, is.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
You don't have to get through a checklist that in
order to heal.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
I mean, maybe part of it is just escaping for
a little bit and enjoying like a sense of relief
from all the stuff going on in your in your
current world.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's so helpful to do that.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
One thing that someone did for me, or someone asked
me when I was grieving was what or how can
I best be there for you right now?
Speaker 3 (28:26):
And that question really was.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Really nice to hear because typically people just take charge
and do what they think is right for you in
the moment. And so now I've like really used that
question a lot when that people are experiencing loss or
grief in some way, I'm just like, what do you need?
Speaker 3 (28:43):
Do you want me to drop off a meal.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you want me to not talk to you for
a couple of days and give you time to process
what do you need? Because everyone is different, everyone processes differently,
and that question really freed me up.
Speaker 5 (28:56):
And what someone needs today might not be what they
need to tomorrow. And so I think it's important to
give ourselves permission to let our answer change, or to
let ourselves kind of not know. Yeah, because sometimes you
just you're like, I don't even know what I need. Yeah,
you know, and that's that's an okay answer to But
I love that question.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
I like that answer too, Like sometimes it's today I
might need this, and tomorrow I might need that, and
that's okay, and I don't know what I need right now.
This has been so enlightening. What is like one thing
you want to leave my listeners with who are possibly
dealing with grief or have someone in their life who
is dealing with that. What's like one aha thing want
(29:37):
post it? No little piece of encouragement that you want
to leave them with.
Speaker 5 (29:42):
You know, I would love for people to also know
about the role of time in grief because a lot
of us are walking around believing that time heals all
wounds and because it is an ism, we love anism, yes,
and and it's a little bit more nuanced than that, right,
So it's for sure. It wouldn't it be lovely if
(30:04):
time just passed? And that's all we had to do
is wait for time to pass. But that's not all
we have to do, you know. We have to figure
out how to support ourselves as time passes. Right, we
have to figure out how do I, how do I
create enough safety in my body that I can feel
what I'm feeling. And then also there is a role
that time does play, and so we want to we
(30:26):
want to understand that what is happening as time passes
is that in our brain is relearning, so especially when
it comes to spousal loss, but really anything that's that's
really important.
Speaker 4 (30:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (30:37):
Our brain has a way, in order to meet our
attachment needs of predicting with relative certainty where our person is,
when we're going to see them again, how long it
will take to get to them, so that we don't
have to be thinking about that every day, every moment
of every day. Right. But when they die or when
we experience a significant loss, even if it's not a
death loss, it takes time for our brain to get
(30:59):
enough exposure to the new reality to update the predictions
that it makes. And so it's really normal to intellectually
know that it happened, but to keep acting or feeling
like it didn't. And that doesn't mean you're in denial.
That just means your brain is relearning and it needs
more exposure to the new data to stop telling you
(31:20):
that I should pick up the phone and tell them
about my day, or when I reach over in the pillow,
they should be there, or you know, whatever it is.
And so don't make yourself.
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Wrong for that.
Speaker 5 (31:30):
Just know that your brain is learning and that's a
very important part of grief, and that really only.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Does happen with the passage of time.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
Wow, I'm like seeing two different things.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
One is like when you need an update for your
phone and you have to have to take the time
to like plug it in and connect it to Wi
Fi and it takes forever to update, and then you
have to.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
Relearn your phone.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Almost Yeah, your brain is like downloading new software as
you're going through time, and you have to relearn yourself
and relearn your new normal. And then also I'm sure
you have, but have you seen the movie inside Out.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
Oh my gosh, my favorite, literally, my favorite movie ever.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
We watched that all the time in my house because
I have three year old. It kind of makes me
think when you were saying the brain is like relearning,
Like we have these little people in our head who
are like storing up new memories and downloading new I
don't know, new processes for going through things. And they
it was the movies about a teenage girl who's just
(32:33):
changing in life.
Speaker 3 (32:33):
Is hard for a teenage girl, but I think it's
true for all of us.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
It's like, if you could just think about these little
characteristics in your brain that are just doing work for you.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Yeah, that and one day, and there's so much, I mean,
I could. I've literally done podcast episodes on Inside Out,
that's how obsessed I am with it. Like even just
the role of sadness, Yes, but I still like the
first one more.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I do too.
Speaker 5 (32:55):
I really the takeaway for me is so big that
the value of sadness and just you know, not thinking
that not approaching life is though joy is superior, but
really just yeah, yeah, all of it such a good
so many good lessons and their picks are I know.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
And then the second one, although not as good. The
anxiety aspect was interesting for especially for a teenage girl,
because you know, we watched her as a kid in
the first one, and then she's growing up, she's like
having all these like yeah questions.
Speaker 5 (33:26):
And grief has so many parallels to Riley's experience in
the second one, right, because it's it's a full body, hormonal,
unexpected thing that happens. And anxiety is often such a
big piece of grief too that people don't expect. We
look at teenagers and we expect it for them. You know,
they may not expect it for themselves, but we don't
often think that our confidence is going to take a
(33:47):
hit or anxiety is going to become more prevalent. But really, grief,
I mean, there's nothing in your body that's not affected.
Your hormones are off, you're not sleeping, Like it is
a whole thing. Yeah, it's so common to have that
just complete disruptive feeling like you're under construction. Who even
am I anymore? What is happening to me?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Experience?
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:07):
So I guess listeners, give yourself grace whatever part of
the process you're in, because time doesn't heal all wounds,
but time will change you and rewrite your brain and
give yourself grace in between, because we all need it,
whether it's with grief or something else in our life.
We just are constantly evolving and changing and life is
(34:28):
really really hard. You're here, give yourself some grace. We're
all just kind of figured it out together. Okay, what
is the best way for my listeners to connect with
you and to hear more of your wisdom?
Speaker 4 (34:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 5 (34:46):
So the Widowed Mom podcast is my podcast, and anybody
is welcome to listen. It's not just for widows. I
talk all about grief and post traumatic growth. And then
also I created a download downloadable journal that anybody is
welcomed have if they want, and it is called Memories
That Matter. One of my biggest fears after Hugo died
was that I would forget my memories of him, and
(35:07):
so later I wrote down one hundred journal prompts to
help you remember your person. So if anybody love that, Yeah,
if anybody would like that or would like to give
it to another widow or use it for themselves, they're
welcome to have it. It's at coaching with Krista Krista
dot com, Forward slash Heart and they can just go
there and get that for themselves and share it with
(35:27):
anyone they want.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Perfect and I will put all those links in the
show notes listeners so that you can find it easy.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Thank you so.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Much for being vulnerable and sharing your story to everyone
through your podcast and through other podcasts. It's a lot
a lot of people need to hear your story and so.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:48):
I love doing it.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
Thank you for being willing to talk about hard things
and grief because so many people don't want to talk
about it. And it's conversations like this that I think
will prepare people for their next grief because maybe they're
going through it right now, maybe they're not, maybe they're
trying to support someone. But kudos to you for you know,
wanting to talk about it.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
Well, I think that's just it.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Also is it is inevitable you will experience some type
of grief on some level.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
Yeah, and you're probably right now.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, maybe you are right now ten times in your life.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
And so to have these types of conversations to fall
back on is huge for people to know how to
navigate through their own grief.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I'm definitely going to be tuning into your podcast and
I hope to connect with you again.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
In the future.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
Same Catherine.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
All Right, listeners, I will be back next week with
another special guest, and I will talk to you a
bit bye.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thanks for listening to Heart and Soul. If this episode
encouraged you in any way, please leave a review on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get to your podcast.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Talk to you next week.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com