Team Conrad vs. Team Jeremiah with Bianca Pastrana

In this episode, Kathryn Benko and Bianca Pastrana engage in a lively debate about the characters Conrad and Jeremiah from 'The Summer I Turned Pretty.' They explore themes of friendship, nostalgia, personal growth, and the complexities of love, while sharing their own experiences and perspectives on relationships. Bianca and Kathryn delve into the complexities of character development in TSITP, focusing on the love triangle between Belly, Conrad, and Jeremiah. They explore the differences between the book and the show, share theories about future relationships and the show ending, and reflect on emotional moments throughout Season 3. Tune in for a very divided and healthy debate! 

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00:00 Introduction and Friendships
02:56 The Battle of the Brothers
05:56 Nostalgia and Personal Connections
08:54 Character Analysis and Relationships
11:58 Debating Team Conrad vs. Team Jeremiah
14:53 The Impact of Relationships on Personal Growth
17:56 The Role of Therapy and Personal Struggles
21:00 Concluding Thoughts and Future Predictions
22:01 Character Analysis: Belly and the Villain Debate
25:04 The Complexity of Jeremiah and Conrad's Relationships
29:14 Nostalgia and Personal Connections to Characters
33:27 The Impact of Communication in Relationships
35:53 Character Development and Growth in Season Three
41:33 Theories and Predictions for the Series Finale
45:30 - 51:00 SPOILER ALERT!!!!
54:02 Emotional Moments and Character Growth
56:40 Navigating Love and Friendship Dynamics
01:01:08 Reflections on Fictional Relationships and Real-Life Lessons

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to the Heart and Soul Podcast with Catherine Banko.
I'm on a mission to celebrate breakthrough, empowerment and shameless
living in the lives of women everywhere. Join me and
let's live unashamed together. What's going on?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Everybody? Welcome back to Heart and Soul.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
I think I'm just gonna take this out of the
mic saying and yes, I'm leaving that in. Today I
am joined by a long distance friend, miss Bianca Pastrana.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
Welcome back to the pod.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Not your first time here.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
I know I was actually thinking this morning whenever we
set this up, I was like, I need to go
back and listen to what in the world I said
years ago, and if I even I don't remember what
we talked about maybe dating was like, I need to
see if I even agree with my own stance at
that time of my life.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Well, we might look back at this episode next year
and disagree with both of our own stances.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
So you know, like, that's just it's called evolution, it's
called growth.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's called growth.

Speaker 4 (00:57):
We honestly might look back at this episode in four
weeks when the final episode launches, and be like, wow,
we were so off base.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
We just don't know. We don't know if we're gonna
be off base. We don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
And that's the beauty of just like living in the moment.
So Bianca has been on. I thought you've been on twice.
Have you been on twice?

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Honestly, maybe I.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Think she's been on.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
I think you've been on twice, But it's been a
couple of years at least since you've been on.

Speaker 3 (01:22):
She was on.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
So my friend Carle is now Bianca's best friend in Dallas,
and Bianca, I know through Michael. It's kind of a
confusing web, but really Michael and Bianca did y'all went
to church together and did like a discipleship school together
back in Dallas. And then Carly who lived in Wilmington,

(01:43):
who has also been on the podcast, Carly Fink shout out, Goral,
you better be listening. She moved, Yeah, duh, she moved
from Wilmington to Dallas, which is funny, we kind of
flip flop switch places. And she was like, do you
have any single friends and woman or in Dallas? And
I was like, I have one, and and I'm also like,

(02:06):
not really her friend yet.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
And also I've never met her in real life, but
we're just trusting Michael at this point.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
The crazy thing is, like all of my friends from
Dallas either moved, got married or whatever. So I when
I go back home, I really only see my friend
Taylor and then like Carley sometimes. Yeah, so it's kind
of crazy, like Dallas is like such a distant memory now.
But anyways, hooked y'all up and it was love at
first sight, and y'all, y'all are true best friends.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
True, we really did COVID together.

Speaker 4 (02:38):
That was what like joined us as like, okay, we
are both single and we live alone. How do we
survive this year? And it's really bonded us forever. And
now she's about to have little twiny boys and it's
about to be so fun and special season.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Now I cannot like only god, but like, oh my god,
it's amazing, and she better name those boys Conrad and Jeremiah.

Speaker 5 (03:04):
Literally except except like please don't except literally don't, although
I will say I love the name Conrad, and it's
not just because of my love for Conrad.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's a cool name. No, I'm like Jeremiah is also
a cool name. That's so cool. Yeah, I do, I
do like it. I do. I like them both.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
But if I were to name a son Conrad or Jeremiah,
everyone would know why.

Speaker 4 (03:28):
No, Like, I really do think we're gonna have a surge.
It's about to. We know we're going about to have
this huge surge of Conrad's and.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Conrad's, Jeremiah's, Isabelle's bellies whatever.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Please, although belly's the worst.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
And if you haven't, if you haven't like noticed yet,
that's what we're gonna be talking about today. We are
going to have a very healthy emphasis on healthy debate
on so funds.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
And yeah, the Battle of the brothers, the Battle.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Of the brothers, and I am team Comrad and Bianca's
team Jeremiah. And I will always have you, always have been.
And I will say so I did read the books.

Speaker 4 (04:10):
Okay, and that's where we differ, and I do there
is there is It's hard because I can't go back now.
Yeah my opinion, Yeah, I just so, and maybe I
will just to see.

Speaker 3 (04:22):
I just don't know. I'm too biased at this point.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
So I can be honest and say that I do
think there is a chance I would feel differently like
I really I can be I can humble myself and
say there's a chance.

Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
But also I will say that Jenny Hahn has done
a good job of bringing like the most important parts
from the books into the show, Okay, to where like,
obviously it's so helpful because, like especially the third book,
like it goes back and forth chapter in chapter between
Conrad's point of view and Belly's point of view. So
obviously that's really helpful because you get to hear his background,

(04:59):
like inner thoughts. But so we'll debate this based solely
on the show. But I just want you to know
that I know you know, you know the truth.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
I know the truth.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
And also I did watch your Instagram reel very informal.

Speaker 4 (05:16):
My seven minute reel. It was it was so funny
because I've been telling Carly that I wanted to make
this video because I felt so strongly, especially since I
just recently went back and rewatched season one and two
because it comes out, you know, every year. So I
had missed so much I'd forgotten.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well, and some You Can Do came out in twenty
twenty three.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's been two years, Okay, Yes, So I just had
forgotten so much and I felt such a disconnect watching
season three now, and so I had to go back.
I have a long list of notes on my phone
and I just that video was like waiting to be made,
and you could tell by.

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Me being in it.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
I was screaming by the end, love, why do I
care so much? Why do I care?

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Why?

Speaker 1 (05:58):
And I when I watched it, I thought, well, I
texted you and Carl or mess it a DM Carl.
I don't know how it happened, but I was like,
I think this would be a fun podcast because a
lot of the points that you make I agree with,
by the way, right, and.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
Yeah that I think Honestly, I think so many of us, like,
no matter what team you're on, we're at this point
now where we're like, can we please end this show?
Like everyone needs to go their separate ways, Like I said,
everyone needs to get their frontal lobes in check, and
we need to just all like find somebody else.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
There are so many people in the world.

Speaker 4 (06:31):
I think we're all just like so tired, like we're
so ready for this saga to be over, which is
sad because it's been such a fun ride. But you
get to this point where you're like, I'm not sick,
I don't even care.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, and I totally agree.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
I would like to preface our conversation with when I
watched this ship. Okay, maybe I should just start by
talking about like the deep dark obsession I have with
this show. One is it's filmed in Wilmington, which it's
just fun. It's just fun to like see like all
the places that, like the coffee shop there and I

(07:05):
go to weekly you know, so that's just like fun.
And then also I'm just going to say that this
brings and I've seen a lot of tiktoks and reals
about this just doing my research, but this brings like
my millennial heart so much like nostalgia because of one

(07:25):
my generation. So I'm we are we the same age.
I'm thirty four, Okay, I'm thirty six, so basically I'm
just like two years older. Nobody will and so this
like makes me feel like it's very like Leonardo DiCaprio,
like the boy bands, Like just like from an esthetic
point of view, like Conrad and Jeremiah both both of

(07:46):
them have that look that is like the look that I.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
Loved and fond over in high school.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
So A really truly watching the show, I feel like
a high school girl again, and I'm a thirty six
year old mom of two who is nowhere near where
they're at in their life.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
But if that's so fun, because it's like this is
so far from the life that I'm currently living, I
get to like insert myself into this story. The amount
of people I know that our age were like watching,
even like men, like I have guy friends that are
watching the show just because they're like, it's it's just

(08:23):
so good and also so bad. That act is so
I get secondhand embarrassment watching Steven act. It paints and Laurel.
It paints me so much. But I'm still I'm in.
I'm like, I have to know what happens. I can't
be stopped.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I will say, though season three acting from Belly and
Conrad is phenomenal.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yes, it's definitely good.

Speaker 1 (08:44):
I've never thought that phenomenals may be a stretch, but
like really good compared to especially well. I actually always
think that Conrad has been a pretty good actor.

Speaker 3 (08:53):
I think so too, I'd agree.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Jeremiah is just like a pretty face, like he's really
never been like I've never been looking at him and
being like wow, at.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Right any And I don't think he's his type of
character has like given him the stage to show off
his acting skills, because he's kind of that goofy like fun.
But this last episode, especially like Conrad with his monologue,
I think we really got to see like okay, like
you're legit.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, And I'm going back just like you, just for
nostalgia's sake. I have been going back and watching the
old season. So I finished season one. I'm like halfway
through season two, which was the worst season.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
We all know.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
Season two was the worst season. Season two was rough.
It was it was tough, really tough.

Speaker 1 (09:34):
But I did I did want to go back for
the same reasons as you, to like kind of back
up what I'm thinking. And I think for the most part,
I am sticking to my guns. However, I do see
how they have, like you said, and you're reel, they
have like really switched Jeremiah's character in season three, where like,

(09:57):
well we'll get into.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
It, we'll get it.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
But anyways, I love watching the show for those reasons.
It feels nostalgic. And I also when I watch it,
I watch it from the perspective of like a high
school girl. And for sure, and so I will say that,
like I know a lot of the logic is out
of my brain when I have this debate. Okay, I'm
going based off like I'm belly. Okay, if we.

Speaker 4 (10:22):
Were all belly, we would be choosing Conrad, like we
would because we're we were all idiots in high school.

Speaker 3 (10:27):
None of us were not idiots.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Did you have a Conrad? By the way, did I ever?

Speaker 3 (10:33):
I've had both.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
I've had a Conrad and I've had a Jeremiah, which
makes me feel like I can speak to this, but
I wanted to ask you, do you feel like you
married a Conrad or a Jeremiah. I know the answer
because I know your husband.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Okay, so he's my best friend, So there's the Jeremiah aspect.
I feel like Michael's just like not real. So with
I feel like with Michael, he is like peace to me.
So I've had the Conrad, like whiplash love I've had.

(11:11):
I've even had the Jeremiah like mostly just friends kind
of love but like still dated.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
And then Michael.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
He's like a good combo of both with like zero
whiplash and like all peace. Yes, steady, He's steady, which
I think Conrad is steady.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
And we'll get into that. Well, not with belly, but
like his feeling.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
I would say, yeah, I would says he's more steady
in a way than I would say Jeremiah is very
like impulsive.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
He's impulsive, he's flippant, he's he's very much a twenty
one year old boy.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
Totally.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, And so I don't think I married either Michael
or sorry, either Jeremiah or Conrad. I think like that's
kind of I think you need to kind of have
all those types of loves though you don't need to,
but like it's very important to like kind of get
that perspective. And then when you find like you're forever,
it feels like steady peace and it feels like I'm

(12:06):
not going to be on this like roller coaster.

Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah, I'm just like I'm chilling.

Speaker 3 (12:11):
We vibe in, We love that. Why are we all
looking for that?

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Michael cracks me up because he won't watch the show
because you know, he is alive, and but like he'll
he gets into like my debates about.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
It because he knows enough.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
He knows enough, and it's also the most predictable show
of all time. So he like me and my friend,
me and his friend, actually his best friend Austin loves it,
and so we have a group text me, Austin and
Michael where Austin and I debate over the show and
like recapped episodes, and then Michael just like throws in
based off what we've said, like a long prediction for

(12:49):
the next week, and let me tell you, it has
come true every single time.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
And I'm like, I'm a genius.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
I have read the books.

Speaker 3 (12:57):
Did you read the book behind my Back? I'm really
you don't get it.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
Okay, well let's just get into the debate.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
Let me Why don't you start with your reasons going
from season one to season three of why your team
Jeremiah think?

Speaker 4 (13:13):
Okay, to preface, my last relationship was a Conrad like
worst of all time, you never believe, so I think
other types of versions of me would for sure be like,
of course Conrad. That like the Way I Loved You
by Taylor Swift is like my all time favorite song.
It's like I miss screaming and fighting and kissing in

(13:34):
the rain, and that is me.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
And I think that song is for sure played in
a Conrad moment because season one, we just love that,
we love that like I do, so I do see it.

Speaker 4 (13:47):
However, I just love the like golden retriever best friend energy,
and I think we can all agree that season one
and two they really put like Jeremiah as the like
he was it because Conrad was going through so much,
and I just like clung to that clunged clung, I

(14:08):
clung to that whatever. But it was it was just
like I just from the get go was like, I'm
in on this guy. And obviously now in season three,
there's a lot to be said about what's been going on,
but I think I just like, I love that he's
always loved Belly, like he just has always had eyes
for her, which feels really special to me.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
And I'm so anti.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
That like really high highs the really low lows of
Conrad where it's it feels so like idyllic, like it's
this you want what you can't have, Like he only
wants her when he like can't have her and he
can't express his feelings. He's like emotionally unavailable and he's
going through so much. But you're also just like, then
there's this real guy right in front of you that

(14:54):
like shows up and wants to give you everything, And
I'm like, why would you not want that guy? It's though,
because I also feel like I've lived lives or lived
moments in my life where I have been second choice
and I'm like, I don't want it, and no one
should be second choice. So genuinely, at this point, I
don't want her to end up with Jeremiah, so I

(15:15):
feel more Team Jeremiah as like a concept like if
I had between the two, but I'm I want her
to end up with Conrad because like, I don't want
to deal with that backlash from the world like it
imagine if we get all this way and she ends
up with Jeremiah.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Like the world's gonna be pissed.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
No, Like it's worse than a political campaign, like we
would be unwell and if you're so unwell, I feel
this like I feel like I'm the like opposite of
what the world is saying politically, and I'm like scared
to speak up and I'm going to like lose followers.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
That's how I feel.

Speaker 4 (15:50):
Now.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
I've actually recently gotten on Team Jeremiah. TikTok.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
I've somehow finagled my way over there where I belong,
and it's really helping me be like, Okay, I'm not alone,
nor you're one that feels like the only one.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah, I probably should have like prefaced this with like
the healthy debate, Like we're not going to be the
presidential election debate of the last eight years. Let's be honest,
We're gonna have a healthy debate because we see each
other so polarizing. I want to see your side, and
I will say, based off the shows, I'm taking the
books out of it, based off the shows, like season

(16:31):
one was it's not that I was team Jeremiah. Well,
can we just talk about like and this is like
nothing to do with like LGBTQ plus or whatever, but
like why did Genny Han change the story and make
him bisexual for odd day and then day and then
like never talked about it again. It's like, so like

(16:52):
I commented on your post last night. I don't know
if you saw it, and then I deleted it because
I wanted to talk about it today because at one
point in your I literally commented and then I was like, no,
she's coming on the podcast. Delete oka because I want
to talk about it. So you were saying, like in
season one, like lest we not forget that Conrad was
dating that girl Taylor Earth, not the cole the cole yeah, well.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
Jeremiah was dating that boy, like that's not talked about.

Speaker 4 (17:21):
Well and that it was also like there's so much
insinuation in this show that you like can't even know
who's dating who when. But it was like in my head,
I was like, he had this one random moment he
kissed this guy that could not have come more out
of left field. And to me, I'm like, Okay, I understand,
we're like living in a more progressive world at this point,

(17:42):
so I'm like, okay, like I get that, that's that's
that's part of this, but I'm like, if you're gonna
do it, like go all the way, it was just
this weird like drop.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
And then never again, like you said, never talked about again.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, and like maybe I'm like confused. Maybe I'm not
confused because I don't it was never in the books.
And then there's like some line. Am I like making
this up? There was like some line where like his
ex boyfriend was the guy at the bachelorette party or
bachelor party.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
We're gonna get to that. Put a pin in that
because I have thoughts on that. Okay, is true.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
My feels is like what Conrad was doing with Nicole
that summer is the same thing that Jeremiah was doing
with what's his butt, like hooking up but not really serious.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
Well, yeah, we don't even know this man's name. I
couldn't party. He came back.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
He's in season three. He literally was at the bachelor party.

Speaker 3 (18:34):
Yeah, that's I think.

Speaker 4 (18:36):
Lest we forget everyone's cheated Stephen and Taylor, like everyone's
and no one's ever like officially with people. So it's
kind of just a big messy the big.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
Like like foggy area of like is it cheating? And
I I can go back and forth on season three
of like did Jeremiah cheat or were they broken up?
Were they on a break? I can go back and
forth on that they were broken up, and.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
So I not make it okay.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
I can see how he was like, no, we're broken up,
it's fine. What I don't love about it is the
flippancy of like, I cheated on you, so let me
save this by proposing, and that is like and then
two months later, Like That's why I really appreciated Conrad
saying in the Lifeguard stand like that.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
Was tookaba was two months.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
Ago, right, Like you're getting married two months after one
of like a really big things that happens in it.

Speaker 4 (19:31):
I do think the proposal was so I was so
I was like, uh oh oh, here we are. And
it just shows that side of Jeremiah that's so impulsive,
so flippant, So just like in the moment, obviously immature.
We're twenty one years old, like are we kidding? And
it was just so weird to like end a conversation

(19:56):
like healing, this healing conversation of like okay, I forgive with.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Like okay, let's get married. Get married.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
And also in the books, they it's not four years
go by, And I actually like that they did that
in the show because in the books it's like literally
her sophomore year and they're engaged, Like it's so dumb
because she's like literally nineteen, and it's like, no, like
this is so stupid. Now I will say, four years later,

(20:25):
don't make it any less stupid, because I think they
are totally like I'm team Laurel on that, like you
are dumb, like move in together. They go to Paris
graduate like then figure it out. So I like that
they waited four years in the show, but I also
think like it's still too soon, too much too soon.

Speaker 4 (20:45):
I think what was hard about the four year gap
for me is the disconnect between season two and season
three is so vast to me, like it is insane,
just like the difference. And in my head, I'm thinking, Okay,
do they think that just so much happened in that
four years but we really missed out if you're really
saying there's four years difference of this growth, and I

(21:07):
guess they're trying to portray it, but to me, it
just feels like.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Like there was no just like segue bridge to get
us to that place.

Speaker 4 (21:17):
It was just like, Okay, now we're four years later
in comrades and therapy, lying to his therapist, we'll get
to that too.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
That part of your real really got me because I'm
not gonna lie I didn't clock that because I'm so
obsessed with him, I know.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
And I've gotten so many people being like the comrades
and therapy he's working on himself. I'm like, what good
is therapy if you're lying to your therapist about why
you don't want to go to your mom's memorial? Like,
therapy doesn't work if you're not truthful.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
But they're also just very flawed humans.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
Oh course, and they all need Jesus and they need
to go to jail. But in jail, Jesus in Jail,
Jesus in Jail. New title, the title Battle of the
Brothers Jesus in Jail Jesus. Yeah, and then season two
was what was season two.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Like it was still a Jeremiah moment, it was Susannah
had died.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Rip.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
But also do you feel like Susannah is also like
really toxic.

Speaker 2 (22:13):
In the show.

Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yeah, in the books she is like you get more
of her, you get more of everyone's perspective in the book,
so it's like you have a little more empathy for everyone.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
Now.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, I think she's toxic. And the fact that she's like,
you will marry a Fisher.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
One hundred percent.

Speaker 4 (22:29):
And I just think the pressure on Belly, so much
pressure on Belly. And however, I.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
Like, I think we can both agree that Belly is
the villain.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
She is the worst character I've seen actress, but she's
the worst seeing that.

Speaker 4 (22:43):
Meme, that's like Belly has now taken over Rory Gilmore
as the worst fictional character of all time.

Speaker 3 (22:48):
And I couldn't agree more. It's it's really it's really hard.

Speaker 4 (22:53):
I mean, what would I do if I was in
Belly's situation, like two hot guys are like obsessed with
me of course or something to go back and forth.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
If I'm twenty. Yeah, that one season.

Speaker 1 (23:05):
I was really okay. So I'll share my thoughts on
Jeremiah first and second season. First season, I'll finish that thought.
First season, he was like clearly a bestie. I think
that all three seasons his motive for being with Belly
is one it's easy, and two it's a competition for
him with Conrad.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
He wants to beat Conrad in something, and that.

Speaker 1 (23:28):
That is debatable, I guess, but like the common theme
between these two brothers is like Conrad's put on a
pedestal and Jeremiah gets overlooked, and so this is something
for him that if he wins Belly, he wins. And
so now do I think that means he doesn't love Belly. No,
But I think that his motives in all three seasons

(23:49):
have been I gotta beat Conrad, I gotta win. Now
to Jeremiah, I really liked I. We also that one
episode from his perspective, which was really helpful. But I
really liked him. I understood why he like backed off

(24:09):
during the year while they were dating. Like I understood
all that. I think that Belly is the worst in
season two because she is clearly in love with Conrad
and is just soaking up the attention she's getting from
Jeremiah and she literally it's like she makes this decision
in her mind of Okay, Conrad doesn't want me, even

(24:30):
though I still love him. Jeremiah does, so I'll be
with Jeremiah.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Right, which is awful.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Awful.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
She's the worst. She's terrible.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
She's the worst.

Speaker 4 (24:42):
The thing, though, is and I also want to talk
about this and your thoughts on this is I understand,
and I that was one of the reasons why I
had to go back and watch season one and two
is because I was feeling this disconnect about Jeremiah and
his dad's relationship in season three and this whole Conrad's
the best, most perfect child of all time because season

(25:02):
one starts and Conrad was supposed to go to Brown
and play football and he's like disappointing his dad, and
he's also kind of just pissed at his dad all
season one and two because he knows about him cheating
with Kayley. And just like I was watching all the
interactions that was hard to watch, so I and I
do think Jeremiah does present that point, like you said

(25:23):
about like Conrad always being better, faster, stronger, smarter, whatever.
And I didn't catch that the first time round that
I watched, So I do see that, and I can
totally see your point of like he does. He does,
of course, like you have that competition, you do want
to win out in something. And I do think he
genuinely loves Belly for sure, But I definitely can see

(25:44):
how that's like, you know, just in the back of
the head.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
I think that also when he like proposed it was
like a little bit of oh my gosh, I'm gonna
lose my prize and so we're about to go back
to cousin. Like I think he genuinely was like, we're
about to see Conrad. It's like gonna all happen again.
I'm gonna lose her. So what can I do to
secure it. I'm gonna propose instead of being like, why

(26:08):
don't we just date like normal humans?

Speaker 4 (26:10):
Why don't we date and you choose me and I
don't have to like lock you in.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yes, I can see that.

Speaker 4 (26:15):
I hadn't thought about that before and I definitely can
see that that is an attribute that Jeremy has for sure.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think like this debate for me why I'm team
Conrad comes from the perspective of, like, if I actually
was that age and that immature, if my frontal lobe
was not developed, because I like had a Conrad in
the sense of like literally family's vacation together every summer
at ocean Iole Beach for a week, and like this

(26:48):
was an older Okay, so his sister was my friend.
He was three years older than us. I had a
crush on him from like age ten until twenty too,
like on and off, on and off, on and off.
I had a boyfriend in between the on and off,
but like for me, it was always like, oh my gosh,
his name was Ben, and if you listen to this Ben,

(27:09):
you already know this. So whatever, it was like every
summer I couldn't wait to get older so that Ben
would recognize me in that way I'm telling you I'm belly,
except I'm not toxic.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
And then when I got to of course I'm perfect.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
When we got to senior year of high school, I
had just broken up, so senior year. In between senior
year and freshman year of college, I had just broken
up with my high school boyfriend because it's like college
and we like go to the beach week and me
and Ben like start flirting and we make out, and

(27:44):
I'm like, he's the love of my life. Like I
went from zero to one thousand, like this is meant
to be. Our families are intertwined, la la, and like
same thing. Like during the year, like he would call
me from college and we'd talk on the phone for
hours and I was like, oh my gosh. So I
think this show literally feels like a little bit of
my life. And maybe that's why I'm a little teen

(28:06):
Conrad because for me, although I have zero regrets about
not being with Ben, it's always like that little like
part of my childhood where I'm like that was so
exhilarating and just like kind of like the one who
got away, you know, And it's like he just feels
like the what ifs are so I don't know they

(28:26):
haunt you not anymore because I have like children and
like I'm obsessed with my right. But like for a
good while of my twenties, I was like I wonder
if like me and Ben wouldever reconnect.

Speaker 4 (28:36):
Which is funny because my when I was twenty one,
I dated my Jeremiah and so and he was like
my best friend for two years. It took him like
two years to realize he liked me, and then we
have this like sweet like relationship, and it always felt
like he was the one that got away, Like I thought.

Speaker 3 (28:55):
We were gonna get married and then we didn't. Never
getting married.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
So constantly we're like thinking from our childhood perspectives.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
And you can't not think from your perspective, Like I
just like loved the guy that I did that was
like my Jeremiah, Like I still think so fondly of him,
and he was just like my best friend and that
was That's like the type of guys that I always
get stuck liking like for years, Like I'll like guys
for two years because they're just like my best guy friend.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
And I'm like, I just want to end up with
my best guy friend.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
And I think I feel the same way you do,
just opposite where like I want to see this play
out because this wasn't my story.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
It hasn't been my story. Yeah that's interestrating. I like that.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Okay, Well, while while I'm talking about Conrad, I'll tell you,
like why I am team Conrad and I and I
will admit that he has many many flaws, the first
being like he was seventeen years old or eighteen, I
don't know what he was in season one. He just graduated,

(29:59):
so he was probably like he was eighteen because he
was about to go to college. So he's eighteen years old.
He's the only one who's carrying this secret about his
father cheating and the secret of his mother dying, and
he's always been told by this is probably toxic from Susannah.
Susannah to like look out for his little brother, and

(30:20):
so for him, he really was like holding everything in
and letting it fester. And so naturally he had anxiety,
he had panic attacks, He couldn't express himself.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
So I have a lot of grace for that.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Also, I have a lot of grace for the fact
that his frontal low was not developed because he was
eighteen and he's dealing with some of the heaviest things
you have to deal with. However, I do think that
given the history of Conrad and Belly, he has always
loved Belly really yeah, and maybe that like is touched

(30:54):
on more in the book, But like even the flashbacks
that they've provided in the show throughout three seasons, like
he has all always looked out for Belly and subconsciously
like loved her, and where Jeremiah like was a kid,
but Jeremiah was always like when it's like convenient for me,
or when it's like convenient for me to win, I'll
like draw myself to Belly. But for Conrad, he always

(31:16):
goes back to Belly.

Speaker 3 (31:18):
That's so funny because I see it as the opposite.
I think we're just blinded by art.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
Made by our own perception of reality, like perception is reality.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Oh, because I feel like the.

Speaker 4 (31:29):
Flashbacks don't make any sense to me. And again I
didn't read the books, but I just see like every
time I'm like Jeremiah is there for he's like making
a breakfast, he's showing up, he's doing this, he's showing
up to pick her up, and he's doing whatever. I
just like see Conrad coming in whenever he wants to win.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Interesting, I know that opposite. Okay and Conrad.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
Season two is like on the cuss of, so like
we forget about the timeline, but like his mom in
April and this is May, so it's been three and
a half, four weeks since the funeral when season two
starts and they're losing the beach house, so it's like
he just lost his mom.

Speaker 2 (32:10):
Now he's losing the only thing that ties them to her.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
And he also got broken up with by Belly, and
people forget that, like, hey, Ellie.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Broke up with him when a problem.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
She broke up with him because he was acting moody,
he was acting and we've all been there. I have
to tell you this story. I think she'll actually shared
this on the podcast. Before Michael told me he loved
me for the first time, I almost broke.

Speaker 3 (32:33):
Up with him. I know, I feel like I feel
like it in Paris. In Paris, Oh, so she has
her own something rite term pretty. I did.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
But I thought he was going to break up with me.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
So it was like a self protection thing of like
he was so in his head because he was going
to tell me he loved me, and so he was
shut down and like nervous and like not talking to
me for literally twenty four hours. We're on the trip
and I'm thinking he's gonna break up with me. He
went on this trip and he realized I can't travel
with this chick like I don't like it, so I'm
like self protection mode. I set up the tea for

(33:08):
him to break up with me, and he was so confused,
and I was like, are we done? Like do I
need to get a ticket home? Like so dramatic, and
he was like no, I was gonna tell you I
love you, you idiot. But I think that so anyways, I've
been through that where I like self sabotage to self
protect and I think that that is what Belly did
because he was acting a fool. But I know you
because his mom was dying, I know, but do you

(33:31):
know she didn't give him a second to be like, hey,
I'm hurting, like can I just have a night?

Speaker 2 (33:39):
Can I go home and sleep?

Speaker 4 (33:41):
But I feel to me, it felt like he was
like pushing her away so that like she would be
the one to end it and he didn't have to.

Speaker 3 (33:48):
That's fair.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
I can see that, Like we'll never know, but it
just is like as a team Jeremiah Stan that's the
visual that I saw at Promise. I was like he
he was like being so selfish and couldn't like put
away his feelings for a night, which again, like you're
going through so much of course, Like I don't know
if I would be able to either. I'm a person

(34:09):
who also has every emotion is on my face. I
can't like push through a lot. So I get that,
and I do have some grace for that, but I
think the way it was handled it just just so
hard to me where I'm like to always have to wonder,
like I feel like Bellie's always having to wonder how.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
I hate that.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
I do hate that, like the give and take away thing. Yes,
I do hate that.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
I do.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
And maybe it's the book in me of like I
know his thoughts and that scene, like he really didn't
want it to end it, but then at that point
he was like, I am losing everything, Like imagine being
so depressed. You've lost your mom or you're about to
lose your mom, right, and you've lost your Standford dream
and you're brown and blah blah blah and and being

(34:54):
so depressed, and then your girlfriend breaks up with you.
You just don't have any fight in you. You're like,
I am worthless, nobody loves me.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
I'm depressed.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
He never said that, and that's where he's wrong, right,
He never he never voiced his feeling.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
No, and that's it's so hard because you it's like
there's so much narrative and story that like, as women,
especially if you're in your twenties, you can just we
just create our own stories, which is our one of
our downfalls, I think, And I just can imagine that.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Yeah, that Belly is like she has to fill in
so many gaps of what Conrad's not saying, and I
think that is to her own detriment because she doesn't
really know and maybe Conrad does feel so differently than
what we're is perceived. But again, perception is reality. So
we're watching this and we're like, Okay, you're showing that

(35:49):
you literally cannot man up and say how you feel
like you hold everything in and all you're doing is
like saying things then retracting it, saying it and retracting it.
So it's like, how do you hold on to what's
real and what's true and what's lasting if.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
You're constantly changing your mind?

Speaker 4 (36:04):
And I think that's the part that's hard for me
to think about it lasting a long time.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
I agree, And I think with Belly in season two
when all that was going on, one of her flaws
and kind of always her flaw is like she lives
in La La Land and so she like wouldn't accept
that Susannah was dying. And I think if I'm Conrad,
that wouldn't help my grief at all. Like I remember
when we were going through our miscarriages and I Michael

(36:31):
just didn't get it because it's not happening inside of
his body, and like that was a real hard time
for us because for him it was like, well, you know,
we'll try again, or it's not like you got you know,
like all the isms that you should hear, but like
we had to like go to therapy to talk about,
like that's not helpful because I'm grieving and like I
need to be able to like process my feelings without

(36:53):
this like bow on it, because there's no bow to
put on this moment.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
It's not what happened totally.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
So Conrad season three, though, is what Karn love him.
He's the He's the Conrad that was portrayed throughout the books,
and I think that's why I love season three so much.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
Do you feel like he was portrayed that way like
throughout all three books or like especially the third book.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Definitely especially the third book, but I think in all
three books, you understood that Conrad loved Belly back. Yeah,
where like in the show, you kind of second guests,
You're like, does he like love her?

Speaker 2 (37:33):
Does he you know, kind of all the things we've
been debating.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Yeah. Well, and first before we get into season three,
the last episode of season two where Jeremiah goes to
Conrad and is like, hey, do you still have feelings
for Belly? And he says yes, and he's like, y'all
need to work this out.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
Y'all need to have a conversation because I don't want
to go through this again. And he goes to Belly
says I still want you, and then the next morning
he takes it back as he does. And so what
pisses me off is that it's like, Okay, Conrad still
loved Belly. And so then we flash forward four years

(38:12):
and clearly he like still is pining after loving her,
missing her, and regretting his decision, and he waits they
spent the whole summer together, while she's with Jeremiah engage.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
That it was just a week. It was a week.
Why do I say it was a week? Okay, whatever,
they spent a whole week.

Speaker 4 (38:30):
Still, so much time a whole week together and cousins alone,
when he could have said so many things, and he
waits until two days before their wedding to like confess
and be like, don't be.

Speaker 1 (38:42):
You mean season three? Season three was a whole summer.
I thought you met season two.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
No, it was one week and three, so like the
fast forward four years.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
And then he like still loves her, and then they
spend like this whole summer together or at least most
of the summer, and then he waits two days before
they are getting married to be like, actually, pick me,
choose me, love me. Gras anatomy moment.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
I think I keep picking at my toe because I
have this like hang now and that's really gross, but
I can't stop picking at it. So I'm gonna get
my toe out of the camera. But I think that
I totally get that is so annoying. But also when
she came to stay, she was engaged, so he's like
thinking all summer, I just gotta suck it up and
like be on board for this wedding, which he really

(39:26):
did try until that little peach slip, but he really helped.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I got admit that was hot as a girl who
like really doesn't think that.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Conrad is that attractive like that. I was like, okay,
like I get it.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
I can have a moment of weakness and say and
I can admit that was hot.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
That was hot in the bathtub when he like looked
up the bathtub.

Speaker 4 (39:47):
Was hot, except that like he was being such a baby,
Like I'm like, be's so for real, Like you're not.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
He's like, oh oh.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Oh, he's a man. Men can't handle pain. Mikel has
a cold right now and you would think he's dying right.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
The man flew man, it's not real. But also just the.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
Fact too that in season three it's like Jeremiah was cheating,
but also everyone's cheering on, like they would have lost
their mind if Belly and Conrad would have kissed at
either of those moments.

Speaker 3 (40:15):
It's like we're so twisted.

Speaker 1 (40:17):
I myself being like cute, it's so bad.

Speaker 6 (40:25):
It's so so bad. It's really so bad. It's all
so bad. But we're taking the reality out and the
logic out. Like I just can't help but love Connie Baby.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
I just love the baby. I do like the nickname
Connie Baby, and I do like jere It's cute.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
And Taylor's always been such a Jeremiah fan, and I
didn't even really realize that until I went back and
watched and I was like, I actually I love her
and I want her to end up with Stephen a Spirit,
so over this Denise girl.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
Like from the get go, I was like, this isn't
my girl.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
I know, I think, like, so there's teasing that Jenny
says it's gonna not end exactly the way the book
ends or something, and I'm wondering, so, actually, that wouldn't
be it because in the books, Steven and Taylor really
aren't main characters. Like they are characters, but they don't
have this storyline. I don't even think they're in love

(41:17):
in the books. I don't even think they date.

Speaker 4 (41:19):
Yeah, I do want to go through like your theories
of what you think is gonna happen, because I have
some theories.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
And another thing that was.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
Really interesting that one of my friends shared with me,
my friend Lydia, that is just really overall like an
interesting topic, but that just that we have so much
character development for Jeremiah and Conrad. But when we look
at movies that we grew up with, like The Notebook,
Hunger Games, Twilight, what else something.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
Else it's like Edward or Jacob, but.

Speaker 4 (41:52):
There was always that, but it's like one always had
way more character development that you like knew which one
she was gonna end up with, even though like some
people would still be Team Jacob, but you just knew, like, Okay,
it's Edward, Like there just wasn't as much. But in
this show, we have so much character development for both
of them that it's really hard to like it just

(42:14):
makes sense that there's that. It's I feel like one
of the most polarizing of our generation of this like
team There's something about it that's just like because like
they're just so developed.

Speaker 3 (42:26):
We just feel so strongly, which also.

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Sign as a girl to like be team boy verus
team boy.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Like just fun, it's the best and it's the worst.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
It's the best and the worst.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
I think with Jeremiah, though, like we forget that, you know,
his character did change when he went to college because
he kind of changed, he like became a frat boy.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Like that's also harped on a little bit more in
the book.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
He's like a frat boy and he's really hates the
fraternity and like they're just very different in college. Like
even who she hangs out with and all that stuff,
like she doesn't like his friends. They kind of touch
on that, like how she doesn't like the fraternity, but
it's just very much more evident. So I think that
in the books maybe you can just see more of

(43:10):
like they're really not a fit. I mean they're they're
they're like meant to be friends.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
I think, yes, And that is why I think that
he's gonna end up with red Bird.

Speaker 6 (43:24):
Really.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, So back to.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
The pin that we put on Blake, I think his
name is Blake, the ex boyfriend being at has Bocher party.
It's like, Okay, the first episode we got the bisexual moment,
and then we like have barely talked about it. And
then in this third season we're having kind of it's
brought up again and we've we've like very briefly talked

(43:50):
about how Redbird is gay.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
I don't know if you have caught that.

Speaker 4 (43:53):
Yes, when in season three there has been there have
been like I can't even pinpoint, but like I know
there have been moments and maybe even that episode, So.

Speaker 3 (44:05):
Ask them chatty Daddy Duck, is Redbird gay?

Speaker 2 (44:08):
That's all I ask?

Speaker 4 (44:09):
So, And so I've also heard an interview or saw
a TikTok of an interview with Redbird saying he's in
every episode until the end of the series.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
So that gives me a little something.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
And what I think is that obviously the wedding's not
going to happen for whatever reason. But it's crazy that
we have four more episodes because so much happens in
this in these episodes, I know.

Speaker 3 (44:36):
So I'm like, what is going to go on.

Speaker 4 (44:37):
I think that she's obviously not going to marry Jeremiah
one way or another.

Speaker 3 (44:42):
She's going to go to Paris. Her and Conrad are
going to reconnect.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
Maybe they'll do like cause you can't go from being
engaged to one brother to immediately starting to date the other.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
That is actually psychotic. There is no way in the
world that that that would be okay.

Speaker 4 (44:56):
And so I feel like some time has to pass,
We're going to do another flash forward whatever. And then
I think when her and Conrad get married, I think
that Jeremiah is going to be with Redbird, and that's
the only way that this can like end in a
way that is somewhat peaceful for them to be family forever.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yeah, I well, I know how the books end.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
Well, I also I got I like, don't mind being
spoiled by the books because I'm like, I also know
that the show's going to be a little different than
I already know, Like she's for sure we're gonna end
up with Conrad.

Speaker 3 (45:28):
But I've heard I've heard a little bit about a letter.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Yeah, do you want me tell you?

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Sure? Spoiler alert, spoiler alert.

Speaker 1 (45:36):
If you don't want to hear how the books end,
don't like just posit posit, pose it and I'll tell
you at the I'll put in the show notes when
you can skip to the next part or whatever. Okay,
So in the books, it's like this so far, they've
been like really aligned with how the storyline goes with

(45:56):
the books. Because in the books, which I think we're
going to see next episode, because they kind of tease,
like Jeremiah punches Conrad. So in the books they meet
in the garden or Jeremiah goes missing because Belly ends
up telling Jeremiah what Conrad said, like he admitted his
love for her, and so he's like really in his
head obviously it's like his wedding day and he just

(46:19):
like goes missing on the wedding day and Conrad goes
after him or goes to look for him and finds
him at the garden, like the mom dedication garden or whatever,
and he has a letter that Susannah has written. So
do you remember in season two or season one maybe
when she was like writing those letters while Belly was

(46:39):
talking to her. They very vaguely like touched on it,
which I kind of like how they did that she
was writing a Belly or a letter to Belly, Conrad
and Jeremiah for their wedding day.

Speaker 4 (46:51):
So I don't feel like I remember that exactly, But
is it when Laurel like comes, she's like, I'll put
this away like I'm gonna.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
And you kind of notice that she's like scrambled, so
in the letter in the in that part, she actually
puts Conrad's letter in Jeremiah's envelope and Jeremiah's letter in
Conrad's envelope. And I think they're going to stick to
that because in the garden, Conrad's like apologizing and he's like,

(47:18):
I'm so sorry, like I can leave, blah blahlah blah.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
I do want you to have this.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Mom wanted you to have open this on your wedding
day and he opens it and it says all that
it shares in the book is like dear Conrad. Nope, okay,
So it says that he's like reading it, and he
starts to cry, and but they never share what the
letter says, and then he like drops it and he
just punches the crap out of Conrad. And then con

(47:43):
he drops the letter and Conrad looks at it and
it says, dear Conrad. And then we kind of get
the insinuation that it says like you're marrying Belly today
or whatever, like the mom always wanted Conrad with Belly.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
This was like explained to me kind of like that,
but not in such a way that made me so
shuck my I think it was explained to me that
Belly got a letter that was like dear okay, but
it was like I always knew it would be Conrad
or something like that.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
It's like girl.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
So in the books and in the show, I believe
they won't. They don't really share what the letters said
that Jeremiah opened. They just kind of insinuate, yeah, Jeremiah's pissed,
and all they say. All it says is Conrad picks
up the letter from the ground and he reads it
and it says, dear Conrad, and then the chapter ends,
so he realizes I gave him the letters were mixed

(48:36):
up or whatever. It doesn't say what it says, though,
but you can insinuate that it says something about like so.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Shook, Like I actually do think I need to go
back and read the books.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
Yeah you should.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
If I didn't read them, I listened to them and
that was way fun because the narrators on the New
Audible are the voices of the actors in the show. Okay, fun, Okay,
So that happens, and then it does like the wedding's
called off, and Belly's just like, I need to go
find myself.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
I've never known myself outside of the Fisher Boys.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
Which were going I could have told you that season
one episode one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
So she does go to It's not Paris in the books.
I think it's like Spain or.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
Something, so like whide you switch. I don't know, but i't.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
She studies abroad and while she's studying abroad, Conrad is
writing her letters and she never responds to the letters,
but she's getting letters like weekly from Conrad, just like
have him sharing not like anything that's very flirty. It's
just like him sharing like here's what's going on back
home or whatever, and like casually like joking, and then

(49:39):
like randomly ending the letters with like you sell them
a written me back, like back, and she doesn't write
him back. And then at the very end, when she
gets or when she's about to come home, she writes
him a letter. And he had mentioned something about the
Christmas where they were home, the one that they flashed
back to with the chocolate and the last letter, and
she said, I do remember that Christmas. It was my
best Christmas too, And that's how that ends. And then

(50:02):
it flashes forward to a letter from Susannah to Belly
on her wedding day. So it's like years later, a
couple of years later, wow, And on the wedding day
it's like something about or on the in the letter,
it's like something about like Fisher, you'd have the last name.
I always knew you'd have the last name Fisher, or
something like that, and she says in her own narration,

(50:22):
she says something like, it's not je The crazy thing
is I am marrying a boy named Fisher. It's not Jeremiah, though,
it's Conrad or something like that, and so it flashes
just to their wedding day and that's how it ends.
But it's like nothing, there's no conversation between her and
Conrad that's like really gets it. It's like Belly leaves,
ignores them for a while, finds herself, and then realizes

(50:44):
it's always been.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, I think that. I feel like all of that
is gonna happen, and then I fe do too. I
think that all that's gonna happen. And the thing that's
going to be slightly different is that Jeremiah is with Redbird.
Because isn't there a part that's like I.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Like that theory from you because that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (51:01):
And oh, at the end, sorry, at the end when
it's a wedding, Jeremiah has a date, yes, and he's
at the wedding and they kind of smile at each
other and it seems as if they've forgiven each other
and they're kind of past it because it's been years
at this point.

Speaker 4 (51:15):
That's what I think's gonna happen, and like obviously still
right live forever after, Like I love them together, Stephen
and Taylor, so they have to get together.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Do you think that Laurel and the dad are going
to get back together.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
So I had I heard this theory on TikTok that
you know in the promo picture where or the part
of the promo video where Belly's about to like walk
down the aisle and she looks down and it's like
Laurel and her dad and.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
Taylor's in the back. Taylor's the veil. There's two theories.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
One Taylor has a veil, so they think it's Steven's
wedding and she's just a bridesmaid. But then there's another
theory that like because they call off the wedding and
the like venues already booked and everything's like already bought.
That Like there's another theory that Laurel and her dad
get remarried. Yeah during that what would have been their wedding,
which I'm cool with.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
I like that cool with, but can you imagine bellies like,
oh my, my wedding's not happening that was supposed to
happen to say, like okay, cool, like you can get married.

Speaker 3 (52:13):
I'm domb with that.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Like she just like, oh let me just wipe my eyes,
like okay, here we are so true. I kind of
think it's Taylor though, because she is wearing a veil.

Speaker 4 (52:24):
Yes, And I also can't imagine that like Adam would
be like, sure, I'll let y'all have my whole like
wedding situation that I paid.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
For for Laurel. Like they kind of hate each other,
you know. Did you ever see that Thing you Do?

Speaker 1 (52:38):
The show the movie Adams, the Adam's act the actor
who plays Adam. He's the lead in That Thing You Do,
which is like one of my favorite like nineties early
two thousands, like rom coms, okay, and he was like
so hot and cool in that in that show, and
like now he's kind of like a ba hole.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
But I would eat up.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
I was eating at a restaurant and during Christmas time,
and I was at the table right next to the
actor he was eating. They were filming. They film in
the winter, and I didn't know that, but I was like, like,
all I want to do is go up and ask
him for an autograph. But it's because of that thing
you do, y'all, it's not with girlfriends. I was like,
it's not because of the summer. I dured pretty, I promise,
but I didn't ask.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
I just chickened out. But that is so funny.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Total side note, but I think your theory about Redbird
is correct.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
Also, Redbird is so hot, Like why wasn't he one
of the brothers, Like are you twing? Where's this man been?
I've never seen him before, but like he is hot
being on my screen. Please.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah, I just don't think like Jenny Hahn is very
meticulous in her writing. I don't think she would write
in the bisexual thing and not like circle back.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
And it seems like we in this last episode we
did circle back like enough and then I want to
make it think. Oh, I found a video that was like, because.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
I really hadn't seen a lot of theory videos about
about just what's going to happen or that Jeremiah was
gonna end up with Redbird. I saw that was like
red Bird was leading Jeremiah away at the bar, away
from Belly, into his future and then Jeremiah is looking
back at his past like you know how that people
just eat up.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah, because when they walked away and she stayed and
talked to Belly or stayed in to talk to Conrad.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Yes, we just can we just wrap up this episode
with episode seven?

Speaker 3 (54:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (54:23):
Okay, so episode seven.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
If you haven't watched it yet, you're dumb, because it's like,
by the time this comes out, it's Wednesday, and episode
eight will have come out, which I cannot wait for.
Episode seven is the Bachelor Raucherette party and Belly takes
that Belly gets tipsy and takes that gummy and when
that flashback, those flashback sines started playing in her head

(54:47):
while she's dancing and Ariana Grande.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Is playing we can't be friends. The feelings I fell.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
In that moment.

Speaker 3 (54:53):
I was like, you were like, I'm high with you.
I'm high with you. Okay?

Speaker 4 (54:57):
We also can we talk about the fact that why
does she only have a two friends? There were like
seventy five people at her bridle shower. I thought the
sudden Jeremiah has a slew of men, and it's like, oh,
how is this gonna look when you're standing up again,
like next to each other at your wedding?

Speaker 3 (55:12):
This was mazationally has.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
Two friends because she's been obsessed with these Fisher boys
her whole life and has im poured into friendships.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
One hundred percent. Actually, and why wasn't she allowed to
go in this candy store? Her friends are like in
the candy store and she's just like standing outside and
they're like keep coming up, being like, belly, do you
do you have cash?

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Do you have money?

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Whatever it was, it was like I think we were
buying gummies and she like remember she was anti weed,
which is so funny because then anyone knows. Yeah, then
she was pissed because she found out about Laurel and
she was all in her head, or she found about
Conrad getting Laurel there, which, by the way, when Conrad
got Laurel to the Bridle Shower when that song Time
after Time started playing and she peers through the people

(55:50):
in the bridle shower and her mom's there.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
I weaked. I don't know, because I'm a mom. I
was like I couldn't handle it. I couldn't handle it.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
And then the flashback with Jared or with Conrad and Susannah,
I'm a puddle when she's like on her deathbed, I'm
not okay, it's because of the whole mom part of
my life.

Speaker 3 (56:08):
But he's like take care. She's take care. I'm not
ready and.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Like falls into her arms like yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Anyways, season she's on she's high on gummies now and.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
She has that flashback. That flashback did some things for me.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
I'm sure it actually did nothing for me. What did
do something for me was them her and Taylor in
the bathroom and Taylor, Taylor just being like she's so
she's just so supportive and she's like, okay whatever, like
she's like, why did you lie? That's okay, Like let's
just let's work through what we got to work through now,

(56:46):
because we're in this like waves of mercy, waves of grace,
literally like we're in it well.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
And in that scene before when she's talking to Conrad
and Conrad's like, I just wanted you to have everything
you ever pictured, the word pictured is so key. That's
why I love Jenny Haunt because she's like, I went,
uh huh. And then she says in the bathroom, I
never pictured any of this. I only ever pictured Conrad.
And then later on the beach when he's doing his monologue,

(57:15):
he's like, you're getting married at a country club. You
never pictured any of that? Like the word pictured comes back,
and I'm like, it is.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
I know her and Taylor are doing their little like collab,
their East Rags. It's it is really good. I do
I do agree.

Speaker 4 (57:33):
I do think it was so sweet that he talked
to Laurel and got her to go to the Bridle shower.
But I'm also like everyone said so many things like
of course, well, of course it had to be Conrad,
because like that's how the story is unfolding. But I'm like,
he didn't say anything different than anybody else. Ha said,
But but Laura loves Conrad.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
They have a type.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
Yeah, they have the type.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
But it is just funny to me, how does the
whole thing? Oh, this was the one thing that was
also the Redbird thing. Redbird was the one that brought
up in the bar about the Cabo thing.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Yeah, it's like you're just apotaging it.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
And then other people, Okay, this is another interesting theory,
which it could be part of it, but like also
I don't think it would unlike ravel this way, like
we wouldn't get to know.

Speaker 4 (58:22):
But it was like or Jeremiah says he was drunk
whenever he was in Cabo, but like the way we
see him drunk in this episode is like he literally
can't handle his liquor, which is what Conrad said, and
he's just acting so crazy that we're like, could he
even be able to like hook up with a girl,
you know, in this state, and so then there's like

(58:42):
this whole thing of like Redward was in Cabo, so
maybe it was really that, like he wasn't drunk and
he hooked up with red like you know, all of
the potential narrate.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Like kind of like that well in the book too,
And I don't know if they talked about this in
the show, but like when he hooked up with Lacey,
it wasn't just once, like it happened twice in Cabo.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
Yes, that's like in the show too.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
Okay, that's like another thing where it's like he like
wanted it twice. It wasn't just like a lapse in judgment.
I had too much to drink, Like he did it twice.

Speaker 4 (59:13):
Right, And like lazy, she like wasn't so cute to me.
I was like, she's just kind of like a regular degular.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I was like, okay, regular dogular, lazy, and now she's
like the hottest girl on campus, that Finch.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Yeah, I was so confused by that, but like not
to you.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
Know, did you have any feelings of all when Conrad
delivered that monologue that was so epic. Probably not because
you hate him, because you thought he was being toxic
because he now he tells her he loves her, it's
two days before the wedding.

Speaker 3 (59:41):
Blah blah, yeah a little bit. I just it just
like hurts so much for me for Belly, and no,
I genuinely felt nothing.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
Like I.

Speaker 3 (59:54):
I just genuinely was like, Okay, yeah, say you're but
like that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
It is just crazy though, because in that moment, I
was so proud of Belly because everything that she said
in that moment was like how I would have responded
with being team Jeremiah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:13):
I was. I was like, yes, Belly, I was so
proud of her. I was like, get it, get it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
But of course I know that she's gonna end up
with him, so I'm like, how are we gonna how
are we gonna get around this?

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Because notice too, in that scene, she was like, Jeremiah
loves me more than anyone.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
It was never how she felt about Jeremiah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
It was all watch so I can watch it because
it's all how he treats her, how he feels about her.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
She's like totally like just numb to the fact that, like, wait,
do I even love him right?

Speaker 3 (01:00:41):
Or is this just easy?

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
And by the way, like Catherine, logical adult Catherine knows that, like,
it is so much better to marry your best friend. Like,
let me just say that I think that as I did.
I love my best friend. His name is Michael, and
it should be it should be easy. It shouldn't like
I always say, like, I get pissed when people say, like,

(01:01:04):
maybe it's just so hard. Actually no, life is hard
and you just have to navigate hard things in life
with someone at all times. But like marriage itself, like
you should genuinely like each other. It's actually kind of fun.
You get to like watch shows together and like talk
about life and always have someone like that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Part's great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Life is hard and you have to navigate it with
someone else where you have different opinions and that gets difficult.
But anyways, all that to say, I do think you
should end up with your best friend. For those listening,
I'm not that toxic, however, I just I just think
that Belly and Conrad, if we're looking at it from
a total fictional state, are OTP.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
I mean I think so too, in the sense that
it's like, Okay, this is the person you've always pictured
like and he apparently wants to be with you like
for the next five minutes, like sure, go.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Go be with him, and I want it to be
with her the entire time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
Yeah, okay, until until he does something to mess it up,
Like it just feels so tumultuous.

Speaker 3 (01:02:02):
Like that's the part that just feels so hard for
me thinking of Belly.

Speaker 4 (01:02:06):
I mean, I don't know why I'm wanting to wish
well on her at this moment, but like that she's
going to go into this relationship and it's just.

Speaker 3 (01:02:13):
Like constantly wonder, just so back and forth.

Speaker 4 (01:02:17):
Yeah, I hope, like I hope that he figures it
out like that one day he'll be in a healthier
way and he can express his feelings as they come
and they can worry.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
I think that's why Genny Han made it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
I know you disagree with the therapy of it all,
but she did show in season three that he has grown,
Like he's taking care of the house, he's fixing everything,
he's making.

Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
He's having his notebook no a moment totally and like
making ut season chicken, he's.

Speaker 3 (01:02:44):
Doing the chicken.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
And even when they're driving, like to myels and he's
like opening up like I didn't get into Like those
are things he never or I got fired. Those are
things he never admitted. Like he's fine totally, Like it's
okay to be weak. I do.

Speaker 3 (01:02:57):
I do see a little bit of growth. It's still
taking it some time.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
Like his timing of those moments isn't as punctual as
it should be, but like it's at least coming out.
And so maybe over time he can stop lying to
a therapist and share promptly when he's feeling a certain way.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
And I hope that for him it was just one
little white lie. We've all lied. This isn't a lie
lied when we're in times of struggle.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
I'm just cracking up because this is the longest episode
I've filmed all season, and it's about fictional characters. Like
this is how passionate we get about things that really
don't matter, but they matter.

Speaker 3 (01:03:35):
It matters. It's I feel like I've learned so much
about my perception of the world. Yeah, and know what
and what not to do.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
And also I need Conrad to have that tan and
that haircut and be at those angles at all times
in order for.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
Me to just like and kind of like sweaty and bloody.

Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
Wewetty and Buddy sweaty and bloody. I to say it,
but I was like, oh my god, check yourself. Gathered life.
I know, but it's because it's like so Leonardo DiCaprio
and The Titanic, which is like that movie for us.

Speaker 3 (01:04:10):
It really is. It makes sense, it really does.

Speaker 1 (01:04:13):
It's just so nostalgic it is. But that being said,
you are totally right. This needs to be the last season.
Thank god it is. We need to let these actors
go off and shine, and we need to decompress and
forget these characters altogether.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
We do. We need to like move forward, and I
can't wait to see what they do next.

Speaker 4 (01:04:33):
I don't know what they're gonna do and how we'll
ever be able to distinguish them outside of being Conrad
and Jeremiah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
I think Conrad's already done like mean girls and stuff.
I think he'll probably he's definitely the best actor. I
think he has more range in them.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
I agree.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
Belly is like Broadway girly, like she does singing and
stuff really place like she's a big play girl.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Oh she has a stunning voice. Okay, yeah, this was fun,
so fun. I'm like, we didn't even get in a fight.

Speaker 3 (01:05:05):
No, of course not.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
And I'm so excited to see like the next episodes
and just what's gonna come from it and how they
wrap up.

Speaker 1 (01:05:12):
I really think you're right about this redbird theory. I'd
never thought about that before.

Speaker 3 (01:05:18):
Okay, well, and I can that would be my own.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
That would be such a like easy closed door for
Jeremiah Vans to be like, oh well, he wanted to
be with a man, so it was never gonna be
Belly anyway, like my ex boyfriend who's now gay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:32):
Like once I found out, I was like, oh well,
I'm done, Like I'm over it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:37):
Yeah, I'm over it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
There's no going back now.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
There's the only way we can be family forever is
if you're not with another woman. Literally. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Yeah, that's a really good point, isn't it so weird
that in the books also, I can't stop talking about it.
But in the books also she didn't sleep with Jeremiah.
They never slept together. Really yeah, so like they're all
that time, uh huh so, And I really liked that
about the books because it like protected that part between
the brothers of like she had a sexual relationship with

(01:06:11):
she did the fireplace scene happens in the books, like
she does sleep with Conrad, but she never slept with
Jeremiah because she just like wanted to wait till her
wedding day.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
She was very just an innocent girly And.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
I like that clean break for them because I feel
like it's so freaking weird that, like now and if
she ends up with Conrad in the book, in the
movie or in the show, that she's like had a
she had sex with his brother for four years straight, right,
that's cool crazy been with Yeah, the only two people

(01:06:42):
she's ever been with her brothers and now he's her
brother in law. No, I wish they would have I
wish they would have protected that a little bit more.
I know that, like we're in a progressive world or whatever,
but I wish you would have protected that part because
that made it also a little more innocent to like
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:06:58):
Know, and I think would differentiate that like team Conrad
team Jeremiah, like just the like would make Conrad be like, Okay,
she really is into this guy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
Yeah, And also maybe I explain why she's so obsessed
with Conrad because they said they had sex.

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
Yep, soul ties ever heard of them? Full times, She's
full tied to everybody. She needs to go to therapy
and jail, jail. She needs to go to jail.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
All right, So really, Belly's a villain. I'm still team Conrad,
You're still team Jeremiah, and we're still.

Speaker 3 (01:07:30):
Frindsing changed and we're still friends.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, all right, listeners, I hope that you enjoyed that
healthy debate. And I really hope that when I said
spoiler alert and you didn't want to hear the end,
that you really didn't keep listening because the way I
ruined everything for y'all, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
If you did, that's your fault. That's on you, it's
not on me. Thanks so much for chatting with me.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
I know I loved it, Love you, Love you all right, well, listeners,
I'm going to be back next week with a married
couple and we are not talking about anything serious. We
were talking about the Bachelor in Paradise finale, so with
a male perspective, so I want you to have that
males male's perspective, okay, because we females would be culpit.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
All right, listeners, love you so much, and I'll talk
to you next week.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
Bye.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
Thanks for listening to Heart and soul. If this episode
encouraged you in any way, please leave a review on
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Talk to you next week.