Bob Dylan: Prophet Without God (Guest: Jeffrey Edward Green)

Heartland’s Tim Benson is joined by Jeffrey Edward Green, Professor of Political Science and Director of the Andrea Mitchell Center for the Study of Democracy at the University of Pennsylvania, to discuss his new book, Bob Dylan: Prophet Without God. They chat about how Green sees Dylan as a modern-day prophet, but a prophet of diremption rather than a prophet of salvation. They also discuss how Dylan has made novel contributions to the meaning of self-reliance, the quest for rapprochement between the religious and non-religious, and the problem of how ordinary people might operate in a fallen political world.

Get the book here: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/bob-dylan-9780197651742?cc=us&lang=en&

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Episode Transcript

Tim Benson (00:19):
Hello everybody, and welcome to the Illiteracy
Podcast. I'm your host, TimBenson, a senior policy analyst
at the Hartman Institute, anational free market think tank.
I believe this is episode 172 ofthe podcast. Maybe 171, maybe
173. Anyway, around theresomewhere in the 1 seventies.

(00:39):
So, we've been around for a bit,but if you're just tuning in for
the first time, basically, whatwe do here in the podcast is I
invite an author on to discuss abook of theirs that's been newly
published or recently publishedon someone or some idea, some
event, something, etcetera,etcetera, etcetera that, we
think you guys would like tohear a conversation about. And
then hopefully at the end of thepodcast, you go ahead and, give

(01:01):
the book a purchase and give ita read. So if you like this
podcast, please consider givingIlliteracy a 5 star review at
Apple Podcast or wherever youlisten to the show and also by
sharing with your friendsbecause that's the best way to
support programming like this.And my guest today is doctor
Jeffrey Edward Green, and doctorGreen is professor of political
science and director of theAndrea Mitchell Center for the

(01:22):
Study of Democracy at theUniversity of Pennsylvania. He's
the author of The Eyes of thePeople, Democracy in an Age of
Spectatorship, The Shadow ofUnfairness, A Plebeian Theory of
Liberal Democracy, and he isalso the co editor of The
Changing Terrain of ReligiousFreedom.
And he is here today to discusshis latest book, Bob Dylan,
Prophet Without God, which waspublished back in August by

(01:45):
Oxford University Press. So,doctor Green, thanks so so much
for coming on the podcast. Iappreciate it.

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:50):
Thanks, Tim.

Tim Benson (01:51):
Oh, no problem. Yeah. I mean, I guess just
starting off, I mean, youobviously gotta be, I assume
you'd have to be a Dylan guy towrite, you know, a whole, you
know, 350 page book on on Dylan.So, yeah. You know?
So what got you into Dylan?How'd you get into Dylan, and

(02:14):
how much of a bob head, actuallyare you?

Jeffrey Edward Green (02:18):
Well, I guess I'm guilty as charged.
Since being, exposed to Dylanaround the age of 16, I've been
fascinated by him and listeningto him ever since. I'm 50 years
old now. And, there've been someebbs and flows, but mostly just,
great deal of appreciation forthe man.

Tim Benson (02:38):
So how did you what was your entree into into Dylan?
Where did you, how did you getstarted on the in your journey
through the canon?

Jeffrey Edward Green (02:46):
I got the Biograph, CD box set around
1990, which, for listeners whodon't know, was a kind of, I
guess, greatest hits like albumwith some unreleased bootlegs as
well. And so it was, a 3 discset, a lot of songs, a lot of

(03:06):
different moments of Dylan'scareer. Many, if not most of
them, were well beyond me wellbeyond my ability really to
appreciate them. But there weresome that stuck with me, and I
built out from there. And, astime goes by, feels as if I'm
gradually, understanding more,not less, appreciating certain

(03:27):
songs more deeply.
And, some things, dissipate withage, but perhaps appreciation of
music is not one of them.

Tim Benson (03:35):
Mhmm. Do you have a favorite era or album? You know,
what's your there's you know,Bob contains multitudes. So,
there's lots of differentperiods in Dylan's, career
recording career.

Jeffrey Edward Green (03:53):
Well, part of what makes him so special is
his long, period on the publicstage that he's been around for
60 plus years, that he's givenus so many different looks.
That's part of what's remarkableabout him. So it's very hard for
me to pick. I, like many, youknow, was very struck early on
by sixties Dylan and and theGoing Electric Dylan and those

(04:14):
3, triumphant albums, bringingit all back home, Highway 61 and
Blonde on Blonde. In my lateryears, I really became a huge
fan of the gospel period, 3 socalled Born Again Bob albums.

Tim Benson (04:28):
Yeah.

Jeffrey Edward Green (04:29):
Slow Train Coming, Saved, and, also, Shot
of Love. The 21st century hasbeen the hardest for me, to
appreciate with the same,extreme, joy. But as time goes
by, that's where I'm gettingmore and more interest. And the

(04:50):
Modern Love album, I findFantastic Tempest, But it's a
very different voice and,perhaps very different
mentality. So I don't have aspecific era that I favor, but
but, like so many, you know, thethe sixties is so special.
But, also, I should add, theseventies albums, desire, the

(05:12):
blood on the tracks, and I'm ahuge fan of, infidels, the first
album after the gospel period.And right now, if you're if you
wanna know what I'm listening toall the time in the Dylan
department, it would be thespringtime in New York, a
bootleg album from unreleasedtracks around the time of
infidels in 83. And, that's beenmy my November, early December,

(05:36):
go to for Dylan.

Tim Benson (05:38):
There you go. Yeah. I mean, for the record, I guess
I'll state my my journey too. SoI'm a tad bit younger than you.
Pretty sure the first Dylanalbum I ever had was probably
the the first greatest hitsrecord.
But then when I was a freshmanin high school, it's, like,
1997, 98, my friend's brother,basically drove us to school

(06:06):
every day, and he was a seniorcross player, kind of a big
stoner. He had, like, this,like, 4 album rotation in his
car for, like, the entire year,which was, The Doors' first
album, Fashion Nugget by Cake,that White Town album, you know,

(06:27):
the I can never be your woman.Remember that song? And then the
4th album was Desire. And, sothat was my and I had known
heard Hurricane before in,obviously, in Dazed and Confused
and that famous scene whereMcConaughey comes walking into
the pool hall looking cool asshit.
And, so I'd heard that andgotten into Desire. And then,

(06:52):
from there, I had a job in a, arecord store in high school and,
you know, just went back and,you know, again, this that
sixties triumvirate of theelectric albums that you
mentioned, Blonde on Blonde,Highway 61, bringing it all back
home. And, yeah. And from there,it kinda took off. And, you

(07:15):
know, I saw Dylan, I think maybemy freshman year, my sophomore
year of high school, saw himlive with the Brian Setzer
Orchestra opening.
Yeah. So that was my pathway.And then, of course, you know,
blood on the tracks, you know,that was, like, my go to, you
know, after, you know, gettingmy heart broken my junior year

(07:36):
of high school. So that was onthe regular rotation and, you
know, just from there. And Iremember when I got to college,
I think, like, the first, like,contemporary album, I think,
because Time Out of Mine hadalready come out, I think, by
the time I was in high school.
And then so the firstcontemporary album I could have
bought was Love and Theft, and,like, I had a plan. You know,

(07:57):
when I was in college, like, youknow, I'm gonna wake up in the
morning, go down, and and getlove and theft from the local
from the, you know, CD store oncampus. And that morning turned
out to be 911. So, you know,that delayed my purchase for a
few days. Anyways but, yeah.
So I've been a he's a sort of abig Bob fan ever since, high

(08:21):
school. I've seen him in concertnow numerous times. Pretty much
dig the whole, the whole oeuvre,if you will. I know as big as a
fan I I think the, like, the thegospel period, I think it's
interesting. I don't listen toit as much as the others,
although the the concerts fromthat period are fantastic.

(08:45):
They did the, one of the bootlegseries a few years ago, maybe,
like, 4 or 5 years ago was onthe gospel period and had a
bunch of Dylan's shows from thatperiod, and they're really,
really fantastic. But, yeah, the21st century stuff, I mean, I
really like Love and Theft and,like you said, Tempest, Modern
Love, pretty good. Not reallysure still what to make of the,

(09:12):
the standards albums, which was,was it triumvirate or whatever
the 3 CD? The new one was prettygood. I forget the name of it,
the one with Murder Most Val andKey West and all that stuff.
But, anyway, so Yeah. So I sortof, obviously, when there's any
sort of new Dylan book on thethat, you know, comes across the

(09:34):
transom. I'm always, you know,I'm always interested in reading
it. So I was really interestedin reading your book, and it's a
really, really fascinatingfascinating book, and it's, you
know, unlike any, other book onon Bob that I've ever read. So,

(09:57):
so I guess getting into thebook, you know, the sort of
entry question everybody gets,you know, what, you know, what
made you wanna write this book?
What was, you know, what was thegenesis of the of the whole
project?

Jeffrey Edward Green (10:09):
Well, I suppose I've had this lifelong
fascination with Dylan, and thebook among other things is my
effort to, make sense of thatfascination, to try to
conceptualize it, and do so byputting Dylan in context with
the tradition that I'm mostfamiliar with, from a scholarly
perspective, the tradition ofWestern political thought. And,

(10:31):
the overarching idea of the bookis that Dylan is a prophetic
figure, but not just anyprophetic figure, very special,
unusual, almost unprecedentedkind of prophetic figure. And I
try to flesh that idea out innumerous gestures, and each one
of those leads me to put Dylanin conversation with people that
I was already familiar with, whoDylan is both like and unlike,

(10:54):
Emerson and Thoreau, a certain20th, 21st century philosophers
of the post secular, politicalrealists like Thucydides or
Machiavelli, and I could talkmore about that. But, I was
interested in Dylan, first ofall, academically as a prophetic
figure in the 19 sixties, whereI thought he was doing something

(11:16):
very unusual. He was affiliatedwith the civil rights movement,
and then he withdrew from themovement, publicly saying, I'm
not gonna do this anymore, andsang songs about that
withdrawal, made statementsabout that withdrawal.
And I'm not familiar with verymany people who do this, who are
seen as a leading figure in asocial justice movement, and
then publicly say they're notgonna be part of the movement

(11:38):
any longer, not because theydon't agree with the movement,
but because they just can't bebothered. They can't sacrifice
the time and energy to be adependable agent for that
movement. So I, from an earlyage, was fascinated by that and
then began to write about that,putting Dylan in conversation
with Ralph Waldo Emerson, HenryDavid Thoreau, the only other
people I'm aware of who dosomething roughly similar. But

(12:00):
then the project morphed beyondthe sixties episode, and I
realized that Dylan had otherprophetic moments besides the
unusual one I just described.He's not just any type of
evangelical Christian in thelate seventies early eighties,
but a very special one who'sunusually good at speaking to
militant atheists.
That's, second of 3 main partsof the book. And then the final

(12:21):
part is that he's a prophet ofpessimism and is more
pessimistic than ordinaryprophetic figures are. So I had
the germ in a way from thatsixties, Dylan withdrawing from
the civil rights movement, but Ibroadened out the scope to to
have it be a meditation on Dylanas a prophetic figure more
generally. And I I did so inawareness that I was pushing
back against the grain ofDylan's scholarship, and against

(12:44):
many of Dylan's own comments,all of which caution against
treating him in prophetic terms.The usual, message is Dylan's
not a prophet.
He's a musician. He's not aprophet. He's a poet. He's not a
prophet. He's an entertainer ora businessman.
And I get what those criticismsare trying to say, but I still
think quite seriously that it itis correct to see Dylan as

(13:05):
playing a prophetic role in ourculture, but it matters what
kind of prophetic role. And mybook was trying to answer that
question.

Tim Benson (13:13):
Yeah. I have to admit, when I came into reading
the book, I was probably more onthe skeptical side of, you know,
whether he's a prophet. I mean,you know, if you're I'm sort of
late Gen x, early millennial. Idon't know. I'm in sort of that,
like, buffer area, when I wasborn.

(13:37):
So, you know, we're we got thesort of the full brunt of all,
like, that boomer exuberance forthe sixties and their youth
culture and, you know, just, youknow, rock and roll as being
something more than just music,but having some sort of,
societal import and, you know,and all that sort of self

(14:00):
congratulatory stuff that, like,the boomers, do. And I never
really thought of, you know,Dylan was just because we didn't
experience Dylan, you know, inthe early 19 sixties when he
was, you know, making his bonesas a protest singer. We didn't
experience the, you know, theturn away from that. We didn't

(14:21):
experience, all that stuff. Imean, he was just I mean, there
was a reason he was Bob Dylanbecause, you know, the guy wrote
a ton of excellent songs, andhe's obviously a sort of
unparalleled songwriter, atleast in, you know, the the rock

(14:42):
era of popular music.
But the whole idea of, like, youknow, like a musician being a
savior or a prophet or somethinglike that just seemed just kinda
silly. You know, especially Idon't know. Maybe it's, you
know, the the one guy of sort ofmy generation like that growing

(15:04):
up that was sort of presumed tobe the same sort of thing or
like a spokesman for thegeneration or something like
that. You know, was, you know,Kurt Cobain, and he ended up,
you know, sticking a shotgun,you know, under his chin. And so
we didn't really take that asseriously, maybe.
But, I I do think there'ssomething to it, the the the

(15:29):
idea of Dylan as prophet orthat, you know, I was initially
skeptical. But I guess maybe I'mrambling a little bit. So I
guess just sort of define for uswhat what is a prophet, why do
you consider Dylan 1, and, youknow, why why do we listen to

(15:51):
prophets?

Jeffrey Edward Green (15:53):
I think at the most basic level, what makes
someone a prophetic figure wouldbe 2 qualities. 1, that other
people, right or wrong, thinkthat the person is special and
has something to say. And,they're gonna listen to this
person first and foremost forwho he or she is. Not because

(16:14):
they've gone to school, notbecause they've gotten an
accreditation, not becausethey're an expert, not because
they've inherited some role, butjust there's something about
this person that makes you heedthem. You might think that they
have this aura, or that they'rea genius, or that they have this
natural leadership quality.
Whatever it is, when you aredrawn to someone in this
charismatic way, that is one ofthe 2, I think, defining

(16:37):
features of being a prophet. Andthe other is that this person
that you're attending to isspeaking about profound matters.
They're not just, you know, inthe entertainment world, you
know, just just, speaking aboutwhatever there. And as I
mentioned in the book, typicallyspeaking about 1 or all or 2 of

(17:00):
these 3 profound values thathave inspired the prophetic
tradition, adherence to God,social justice, and matters of
individual freedom, yourresponsibility to yourself as a
free being. And so I think whenyou start to listen to someone
and think they have the answersor something very important to
say about those values and youtrust them, believe them, you

(17:20):
have some faith in them, thenyou have a prophetic
relationship.
And it really that means it'snot totally up to the prophetic
figure to decide whether he orshe is a prophetic figure. If
people are following you as ifyou're a prophet in some ways,
you automatically therefore are.

Tim Benson (17:36):
So, like, Brian in the life of Brian, you know, the
Monty Python movie. So Brian isactually a prophet then because
people follow him and believe heis 1.

Jeffrey Edward Green (17:47):
Yeah. And to the extent that they were
yes. Yes. And it raises thequestion of whether there even
is such a thing as a falseprophet. Someone is manipulating
you and trying to just extractmoney from you.
I mean, maybe you could say thatas a false prophet. But but it
is a sociological relation aboveall, not an objective quality.

(18:08):
And it was interesting to melearning that a lot of the,
prophetic figures from theHebrew Bible, often taken to be
the paradigm case of prophecy,were themselves reluctant
prophets. Moses or Gideon orJonah or Jeremiah were not

(18:28):
welcoming their prophetic role.And so to some degree, and I
don't mean to say Dylan isprecisely like them.
It's not my point at all. Butbut Dylan's gesture that he
typically, but not alwaysperforms of saying I'm not a
prophet, in some ways is the isthe signature of a prophetic
person who has a following.

Tim Benson (18:48):
Right. Okay. So what separates Dylan from his, you
know, these sort of these otherrock musicians who, you know,
might have some sort ofprophetic element to their, to
their act or to the person thatyou know, someone like,

(19:10):
Springsteen, say, or or, I don'tknow, Bono or somebody like
that.

Jeffrey Edward Green (19:16):
Right. I mean, there are other prophetic
figures in our culture. Ourculture actually has many of
them. What makes Dylan distinct,I believe, is the depth and
breadth of the prophetic, like,following the number of people
who who treat him as having akind of wisdom to impart. On the

(19:36):
formalistic level, he, his hislyrics are so Bible laden that
that invites the prophetic labelto some degree as do other
formalistic aspects of his,lyrics there.
His use of the imperative mood,for example, his use of language
that seems quasi archaic thatcould come from another more

(19:59):
distant time. A lot of Dylan'swords sound like they could be
from 100 of years ago eventhough they're not. But most of
all, Tim, what separates Dylan,and this is the whole point of
the book, is that Dylansubstantively is different. That
the other, musicians when theyare prophetic like either don't
spell out messages about freedomor God or social justice, or if

(20:21):
they do spell it out, they'remore what we're used to. And
what we're used to is either thevery good news that you get all
those three values together,freedom, justice, adherence to
God.
You could see that maybe in BobMarley. You could see that in
non musical prophetic figureslike Gandhi and Martin Luther
King. Or there's anothertradition that will tell you

(20:42):
which of those three values topick at the expense of the other
2. But Dylan, my overallargument is, speaks to these
three values that have informedthe prophetic tradition,
freedom, adherence to God,social justice, but is at his
most distinct in testify to thecollision between these values.
That, first of all, he doesn'tgive you a final answer.
He's moving and migrating fromdifferent values over different

(21:06):
parts of his career. But beyondthat migration and movement, he
is very often testifying to thekind of tragic circumstance that
these prophetic values don't allcoalesce and are in conflict
with each other. And there aresome implications from these
conflicts, but I take that to bea prophetic gesture that I'm
actually unaware with other I'munaware of other people doing.

(21:28):
So I think substantively, he'smost distinct from Springsteen
and other other propheticfigures you were maybe, alluding
to.

Tim Benson (21:36):
Gotcha. Alright. So I guess let's move on to the the
first part of the book a littlebit, and this this sort of
struggle or the the conflictbetween individual freedom or
individualism on on one sideand, a commitment to justice or

(22:00):
social justice or whatever onthe other. And, basically, you
read about Dylan suggests thatthere's a there's a strategic
choice between commitments toone or the other or between the
2 of them. Can you talk aboutthat a little bit?

Jeffrey Edward Green (22:17):
Well, I think to appreciate what makes
Dylan so special, we just haveto remind ourselves how
affiliated he was with the civilrights movement, that he
performed at the March onWashington in, late summer 63.
Earlier in the summer, heperformed at a voter
registration rally in Greenwood,Mississippi honoring Medgar
Evers a month after Evers'assassination. Also in 63, he'd

(22:42):
become a hero of the left whenhe walked off the Ed Sullivan
show, which would have been hisfirst national TV performance
when the network executivesasked him not to perform his
song, talking John BirchParanoid Blues. And as you know,
he wrote dozens of songs railingagainst racism, poverty, and
militarism. And at the age of22, he was given the 1963 Tom

(23:06):
Paine award from the EmergencyCivil Liberties Committee for
his civil rights work.
So he had a lot of, credibilityand influence within the civil
rights movement, but thenstarting at, in a way, his,
reception for his award inDecember 63, where he went on a

(23:26):
drunken, perhaps, rant andinsulted people in the audience,
the the the civil libertarianswho were working to protect,
people being persecuted byMcCarthyism and and and were
working for civil rights,accused him of being old and
bald, and likened himself to LeeHarvey Oswald, who had just shot
Kennedy the month before.Starting then, as far as I know,

(23:48):
there's been a consistentprovocation of of the left, a
consistent refusal to identifyhimself easily within it. He
started using the phrase in thatrant from late 63 that I wanna
get younger. It's taken me awhile to get younger. All you
libertarians are old, and Iwanna get young.
And that motif becomes at thecenter of what I take to be his

(24:09):
most important style ofpolitical valedictory, my back
pages from 64. So, you mentionedthe the baby boomer generation
and Dylan, being seen by some asthe voice of that generation,
and he's not wanting to be seenas the voice of that generation.
And in a way, I think both sidesof the debate have a point that

(24:30):
Dylan is telling us in 64 andafterwards, I'm not your guy. I
feel that there's a conflictbetween my individual freedom
and my commitment to socialjustice. I don't want to engage
regularly with civil rightsbecause it's boring, as he
suggested in his song, MaggieMaggie's Farm.
Or because yep, please.

Tim Benson (24:51):
It's an it I mean, it's basically an artistic cul
de sac. I mean, once you makethat decision that, you know,
I'm gonna be a protest singer, Imean, that's I mean, the reason
I mean, I guess there's a reasonwe, you know, still talk about
Dylan and that we don't, youknow, still talk about Phil
Oakes or or or even, you know,Joan Baez or somebody like that

(25:15):
to, you know, to that degree.You know? I mean, the it's sort
of an artistic straight jacket.You know, just committing
yourself in your art, and yoursong craft to, you know, quote
unquote the movement.
And, I mean, I could completelyunderstand his desire to you

(25:39):
know, whatever his politics maybe, his desire to move away
from, you know, just sort ofhemming himself into that lane,
as as an artist.

Jeffrey Edward Green (25:53):
It's true. And I think that that makes a
lot of sense that Dylan, wantedto go in other artistic
directions and did musically inthe mid sixties. His withdraw
from civil rights was coincidentwith going electric and singing
less folk like songs. But Ithink what's interesting about
his meditation on his withdrawalfrom civil rights is that he

(26:15):
doesn't he's confident in doingit, but he's not saying he's
fully justified in doing it. Heseems to recognize that there's
a moral cost.
To say that you're not gonna bedoing civil rights because it's
boring or because it becauseit's conforming, doesn't mean
that those are not usually moraljustifications. They may be
understandable to us, but theydon't have a lot of moral force.
And I was struck by what he saidin a 1965 interview with Playboy

(26:39):
Magazine, that the politicalwork he's not doing, quote,
definitely has to be done. Andhe's acknowledging in that
interview that, quote, peopleare starving, and that lots of
people are in bad trouble. Andso that, I think, is what makes
it fascinating, that he's notsimply saying, you're burdening
me, civil rights movement, and Ineed to liberate myself, and I'm

(27:00):
fully justified in doing so.
He seems to be saying instead, Ifeel the legitimate call of
social justice, which I've beendoing for some time, but I feel
this other call of of being aself reliant free being, and I'm
gonna go in that direction now.But I recognize in going in that
direction, I'm turning my backon worthy just causes. And so,

(27:22):
it's very I think so many of usgoing back to the the the baby
boomer generation, they mighthave seen themselves as fully on
the side of civil rights. Butmaybe in retrospect, what Dylan
is publicly claiming, a lot ofus did and do. Very few of us do
all we can do to to execute ourown sense of what justice
requires.

(27:42):
But what makes Dylan differentis that he's acknowledging it.
Very few people come out andsay, you know what? I'm not
performing fully in light of myown moral conscience. And so I
think that he's such an unusualprophetic figure in this period
because he's a prophetic figuresaying, I'm not fully good.
Usually, we expect the propheticfigure to be morally exemplary.

(28:02):
And Dylan, I think, is playing adifferent type of prophetic
leadership role precisely by notdoing that and saying, hey,
let's be honest. Not all of us,but many of us are not fully
committed to these causes. Weprefer our own comfort and
freedom, and there may besomething to that individuality
that our comfort and freedomenables. But it also has a moral

(28:22):
cost too. And so it's a morepuzzling, ambiguous circumstance
and one we would normally expectto be articulated from a
prophetic figure.

Tim Benson (28:35):
Yeah. Alright. So you you brought up, Emerson and
Theroux before. So I just wannaask you, you know, what does
Dylan really inherit from those2? You know, what are what are
the common commonalities, theyshare between their, you know,

(28:55):
resistance to full timepolitical activism?
And how does Dylan's idea or hisform of self reliance lack, in
your terms, Emerson andThoreau's, the sort of self
satisfaction that they have?

Jeffrey Edward Green (29:11):
Yes. This this, continues on the point of
Dylan being a prophetic figurewho is interesting for not being
fully good and is provocativelytestified to the collision
between freedom and justice.Emerson and Thoreau are in the
book because they're the onlyother people I'm aware of in
history of political thought whoacknowledge that they themselves

(29:32):
are not doing all they could doto execute their own moral
conscience. In the 19th century,they were both involved with
antislavery among other causes,and both fully believed that
antislavery was was a completelyjust cause. But they both
acknowledged in private or morein public statements as well
that they could be doing more,and that they they were choosing

(29:53):
their own focus on their ownintellectual life, their own
creative life at the expense of,being a more dependable, more
consistent social justice agent.
And so Dylan is very similar tothem. However, he's different
too. And as you, suggested, theyare, more justifying their

(30:15):
withdrawal from from activepolitical life. They do three
things that Dylan doesn't do.1st, they say that there's this
providentialism, that god willtake care of it at the end of
the day anyway.
So if they don't consistentlyfight against slavery, it will
still work out in the end. 2,they have this idea that if they
didn't fully commit the evils,then they're not complicit with

(30:38):
the evils going on. But thatthis idea of non complicity that
comes from not being directlyresponsible for for the evils
that are going on. And 3rd, theyhave this idea that they could
not be effective as politicalagents if their heart wasn't in
it. If they were doing it out ofjust a kind of abstract moral
obligation and not because theywere truly inspired, it wouldn't

(30:58):
they wouldn't be able tomeaningfully act in the name of
fighting, injustice.
And Dylan doesn't allow himselfany of those self
congratulatory, self satisfiedlogics. When he withdraws and
discusses his withdrawal, hedoesn't claim to be exonerating
himself in the way that Emersonand Thoreau do, and so I find

(31:18):
that interesting. Again, it goesback to my underlying point with
sixties Dylan that he's aprophetic figure who wants to
not just sing about justice andfreedom, but about the conflict
between them. And he's notreally telling you or I or or
Joan Baez or whomever in thesixties which way to go, whether
you should go be a civil rightsactivist or whether you should

(31:40):
pursue your own individualfreedom away from, the demands
of social justice. But he issuggesting that for some people,
it is a genuine choice and youcan't have it all.
And those people for whom it isa choice, I think we could call
bourgeois. People who whosenotion of individuality requires
some comfort and and excess oftime that they at some point

(32:01):
turn away from what their ownconscience requires. And and
it's very familiar. I think somany people live like this in a
in a prosperous, culture. Butvery few people call our
attention to it and and ask us,I think, to to to locate
ourselves with regard to thisissue.

Tim Benson (32:17):
Do you think resistance to this, you know,
full time sort of activism? Doyou think it deserves, a
justification? Do, you know, arepeople who withdraw or don't
dedicate themselves fully tocauses that, you know, moral or

(32:39):
political causes that they aresympathetic toward? Are they,
complicit, in any way withinjustice or whatever?

Jeffrey Edward Green (32:50):
I think, Tim, it's gotten more likely
that they are. We live in anunprecedented moment that I
guess was happening also forDylan. This modern moment when
unlike before, you can knowabout distant suffering in real
time. You can do something aboutdistant suffering in real time.
Give to Oxfam, give to UNICEF,pick your pick your, entity.

(33:13):
And more so than in the past,it's credible that that we are
the causes of distant suffering,given the globalized
interconnected world we live in.So, you know, and that might be
another difference betweenEmerson and Thoreau in the 1800
and Dylan in the late 20thcentury. That there was a limit
to what Emerson and Thoreau feltthey could even hope to address.
They couldn't find out in realtime about a terrible

(33:35):
humanitarian crisis on the otherside of the world. And even if
they wanted to do somethingabout it, how could they?
But those situations havechanged for us today, and so we
are the recipients ofunprecedented messages for help,
messages to to to alleviatesuffering. What to do about
those messages is a big ethicalquestion. And and your question
is, can we in fact justifiablyturn our back on some of those

(33:59):
calls for suffering? Can we drawa limit and assert it not just
confidently, but with some moraljustification? And that's a big
and important question.
I'm not sure about it. I thinkDylan sings as someone who is
not claiming to be justifiedwhen he turns his back, and yet
is confident he is gonna turnhis back. And I think that
that's, an important andfamiliar perspective.

Tim Benson (34:23):
Mhmm.

Jeffrey Edward Green (34:24):
But I mean, what do you think?

Tim Benson (34:27):
Well, I mean, I'm just, you know, I don't know.
It's, no. I don't think so.Because, you know, there's, let
me see it. But there's so muchmore to life than just being,

(34:53):
not to be derogatory oranything, or a do gooder or a,
or an activist of some kind.
Or, you know, the the thing thatmakes missionaries special, I
guess, is that they have acalling to be a missionary that,
you know, most people don't. Imean, but I don't think there's

(35:15):
necessarily anything wrong withbeing a person who's like, look.
I mean, I agree with, you know,whatever goal x or goal y or the
alleviation of suffering orpoverty or, you know, anything
like that. And if someone says,look. I'll, you know, I'll do
what I can.
I'll, you know, I'll donate sometime to a soup kitchen or, you

(35:36):
know, donate money here and helpout, in my community in some
way, or I'll donate to, like yousaid, Oxfam or, you know,
Doctors Without Borders orsomething like that. I'll be
more than happy to do that. ButI also have a life to leave life
to live, and, you know, I I neednourishment from other sources.
You know, I have a family toraise. You know, I have children

(36:01):
to raise.
You know, I have, you know, justother, you know, you know, I
have impediments on my time, youknow, from other sources, and I
don't necessarily think it'sit's unvirtuous, in any way to

(36:25):
not be, you know, fullycommitted to, you know, or even
say in Dylan's case in the 19early 19 sixties, not being
completely or or disengagingfully from the civil rights
movement, you know, in airquotes there for everybody at
home. I don't think that's somesort of, like, moral black mark

(36:49):
against Dylan. I mean, I think,again, more to, like, the, you
know, his sort of politicalrealism.
don't wanna sound fatalist, butI think he's kinda right that,
you know, there's that best wayto put this. Being part of a or

(37:16):
the movement isn't really doingshit. You know, I mean, when we
look at or just say, you know,we talk about Dylan's songs in
these periods, blowing in thewind, times they are changing,
hard rain, masters of war, allthese things. Maybe they did

(37:39):
have an impact on racism or racerelations and civil rights and
whatever. Maybe not.
I mean, maybe all they did wasjust make a bunch of, you know,
white liberals feel good aboutthemselves. They're like, oh,
this song is great, and I feelthis way too. And look at me.

(38:01):
I'm out there helping, you know,the Negro, or, you know,
something like that. And, I meanI mean, what was it's hard to
gauge the, you know, Dylan'simpact.
You can to to say that, youknow, blowing in the wind led to
this, which, you know, led tothe civil rights act, which, you

(38:24):
know, or whatever. Now I sort oflost my thought. But but, do you
see the point I'm I'm sort oftrying to make?

Jeffrey Edward Green (38:33):
I feel like there's many ways to
interpret the predicament ofsomeone withdrawing from active
civil rights work. And one wayto think about it would be to
say maybe he wasn't thateffective or as effective as we
think he is in that work, and sothe withdrawal is less costly
than it seems. Mhmm. You may beright about that. I I do try

(38:53):
though to interpret Dylan, inthis part of my book in a way
that that keeps alive the theplausibility of us living in a
very uncomfortable situationwhere we're surrounded by all
these horrible emergencies, kidsdying every day, and us with the
ability to do something aboutit.
So not just the civil rightsmovement, but this broader

(39:14):
circumstance of moral or or orhumanitarian emergency in our
teched up world where ordinaryprosperous people could do
something about it. And so wehave to face this like never
before, this question betweenself and other. And there are
lots of ways of reconciling itand and making sense of how to
to harmonize these two concerns,carrying it in the right way to

(39:36):
the right amount for others, andcarrying also in the right way
to the right amount foryourself. But it is possible
that there's a chaos here. Andthat given the depth of the
emergencies around us, it'salways gonna be a bit
uncomfortable when you don't domore.
And I think Dylan at leastspeaks to that possibility, and

(39:57):
and sings about it, and andattends to it. And I think going
back to your earlier questionabout what makes him special, I
mean, show me another rock androller from the sixties who's
taking us down this path, andhaving us think about, this
ethical, challenge that that weface. Whether he's really right
about it, whether myinterpretation about him is the

(40:19):
only one, it's in a waysecondary. He he's bringing us
to to this potent, topic thatthat is relevant not just in the
sixties, but in our own time.And I think that this is to the
credibility of of his of hisvoice, of of what he brings.
It's this type of moralseriousness, in addition to many

(40:40):
other qualities along the way.

Tim Benson (40:42):
No. I mean, there's certainly something I mean,
there I mean, you can clearlysee the reason why he was held
in such high regard by people inthe movement, people on the left
in the early sixties. I mean,his songs are, you know,

(41:05):
genuinely, you know, withoutpeer. I mean, like, the first
time I heard the lonesome deathof, you know, Hetty Carroll,
that song totally knocked me onmy ass. You know, that was I
mean, I still have a hard time,listening to it.

(41:27):
But there's just something Idon't know. I guess the point of
so as a, you know, small cconservative by bent, I don't
know. There's something about,like, movement politics or
movement in or any sort ofpolitical advocacy in general

(41:52):
that just just doesn't that'snever just appealed to me in any
way. You know, like, the TeaParty never appealed to me or
anything like that. But, like, Ijust don't see I mean, to be
totally committed so, you know,like I said, what can, you know,
people do?
I mean, obviously, you can goahead and, like I said, give

(42:13):
money to something or, you know,give time. But say, like,
hypothetically, you know, like,the Chinese treatment of, you
know, Uighur Muslims, in WesternChina, like, you know, like,
what what can I really do aboutthat? I mean, I guess I can go

(42:35):
down to the Chinese consulatedown here in Florida and, like,
pick it or something like that,and it might make me feel
better, might make me feelvirtuous, but is it having any
sort of, you know, impact? Imean, I could, you know, go
light myself on fire in front ofit like that, that air force kid
did a few months ago about thewhole Gaza thing, but did that

(42:56):
really change anything? I mean,you know, no.
Most likely. You know? But, youknow, almost guaranteedly not.
So, I mean, I just I don't havea problem with people just
saying, like, look. I'm doingthe best I can.

(43:18):
You know? I mean, I guess that'smy my general you know, like, I
or just someone who's like,look. I, you know, volunteer at
my church. You know, we do,Habitat for Humanity or, do a
soup kitchen or a food drive orclothing drive or something like
that. And to problems that aremore, you know, that aren't as

(43:38):
local.
If there's something like, youknow, relief for hurricane
Helene or something in NorthCarolina, you know, we can send
money to the Red Cross orsomething like that. But beyond
that, you know, there's reallynot much more I feel I can do,
and I feel like I'm doingenough. And, you know, I don't
then I don't feel like I have tojustify not doing more than I

(44:00):
do. You know, and I'm surethere's lots of people that
don't do shit and, you know,don't give any time or anything
to, you know, volunteer work orwhat have you. And I think then,
yes, there is, you know, youknow, maybe something where you
could point to.
But just in general, I don't inin regards to Dylan and his

(44:27):
turning away from it, like, Icompletely understand the
reasons why he did it. You know,I don't really think I don't
really think he owed, you know,the civil rights movement
anything beyond what he'dalready given them, which was I
mean, they basically got, youknow, Dylan's tremendous gift

(44:51):
sort of, you know, predominantlyin their service for at least a
year and a half, you know, maybea little longer. And look what
he did in that time period, andthey should just sort of be
thankful. I mean, you know,like, the whole reaction to, you
know, Dylan going electric and,you know, like Pete See or, you

(45:14):
know, that apocryphal story maybe true, maybe not about, you
know, trying to, you know, cutthe microphone cord at Newport
and, which totally makes sensewith an old commie like Pete
Seeger, you know, and the wholeJudas thing and, all that stuff.
It's I did like some I'mrambling.

(45:37):
You're really talking 45minutes. No. It's just,
obviously, in I mean, I thinkeverybody now at you know, can
look back at that and be like,oh my god. What a silly reaction
to, you know, this man justwanting to, you know, do the
kind of write the kind of songshe wants without, you know,

(46:00):
anyone telling him that, like,you have to do this. And, you
know, I mean, that's kind of thewhole point of being a rock
musician in the first place iswhen someone says, oh, you gotta
do this is basically to go, youknow, fuck yourself.
I'm doing what I wanna do. We'reprobably gonna have to slap the
explicit label on this one. But,you know, so I don't know. I'm

(46:22):
just saying that I, I don't feelas if that Dylan's turning away
from it is quite the moralquandary that, you know, maybe

(46:44):
you see it or or certainly as,you know, Pete Seeger and John
Byatt and all those people sawit, you know.

Jeffrey Edward Green (46:54):
Well, one way to think about it is, you
know, where is the the propheticedge coming in this period? What
is the target of these types ofreflections? I don't think he,
is speaking out againstauthentically committed moral
leaders who are giving all theyhave to fight against injustice,
someone like, Martin LutherKing. And I don't think he's

(47:15):
speaking out against people whoare saying, look, I'm not doing
everything, but I'm doing thebest I can, you know, and and
I'm not asking for any, credit.I think that that maybe the the
target of of a Dylan typeproduction for the sixties are
people who are a little tootriumphant, a little too
complacent, a little too muchfeeling their virtue in the

(47:40):
movement, but are actually notdoing so much.
You know? So I think that's oneway to see the the the payoff if
you will. Yeah. Feel in selfconsciousness of not doing as
much, you know. That that, as Ias I've said a few times, so
many of us live this way, but wedon't acknowledge it.
Well, some of the people wholive this way are in the
movement. And they're they'refeeling a little too good about

(48:01):
themselves. They're a little toocomfortable as part of what, for
right or wrong, bothered himabout these, older, people at
the, award dinner in 60 63 whenhe got the Tom Pate award. That
he's, like, you guys are havinga fancy dinner at a nice
restaurant, congratulatingyourselves for how much social
justice you're doing. And thatthat's not something he felt

(48:21):
comfortable with.
And and and maybe, you canrecognize that too, that that,
we do live in in a world ofmoral emergency, and very few of
us are making it a a singularpriority. And maybe you're
right, that that's fullyunderstandable. Maybe it's it's
more of a puzzle, as I'msuggesting. But either way,

(48:41):
there can be a broader agreementthat that some people are are
feeling a little too good aboutthemselves.

Tim Benson (48:48):
Oh, I think that's true of any sort of political
movement that has some sort of,like, moral cause behind it. I
mean, we're just, you know, andthat there's just always, you
know, like, how many kids in thesixties, you know, got involved

(49:10):
with these movements because,you know, they're really truly
committed to them or how many ofthem actually did it just to,
you know, like, look cool. Youknow? Or, or in the case of,
like, the Vietnam war protests,the anti war movement. I mean, a
lot of that is sort of selfserving, you know, because those

(49:32):
are the people that were, youknow, of the age that had to
fight it.
I mean, it's more justifiable, Iguess, maybe or maybe not. But,
but that was only a certainsegment of the popular I've
actually read somewhere that,like, the last, like, age group
to turn against the, you know,the Vietnam War, you know, in

(49:56):
public polling during thisperiod, you know, the late
sixties, early seventies, thelast age group to you know,
where a majority of that agegroup were against continuing
the war in Vietnam, were peoplelike 8 between 18 30 or or 18 25
or something like that. I can'tremember specifically. But, you
know, that's but we have, like,this image of the sixties that,

(50:19):
like, you know, the youthmovement was out in the streets,
you know, fighting the you know,burning the draft cards and, you
know, fighting against Jim Crowand all this stuff. And, I mean,
that's not true.
I mean, like, there was acertain amount of people that
were doing that, but, you know,but most most youth in the
sixties was not, you know, youknow, out in the streets, you

(50:40):
know, up against the wall,motherfucker, that sort of
thing. So but, yes, it it butit, I I don't think that's
something that's but the theself satisfaction, of people
involved in these movements, Idon't think that's something
that's, unique to the left orunique to the right in any sort
of way. I think that's just sortof the, you know, any sort of

(51:04):
moral, any movement in insupport of some cause they think
is moral is, you know, apt to tobecome, or to start out as self
congratulatory, I think.

Jeffrey Edward Green (51:21):
That reminds me of one of Dylan's
early songs with God on ourside, which Mhmm.

Tim Benson (51:25):
You

Jeffrey Edward Green (51:25):
know, in base against this tendency to
think that you're in youractions, morally right when
maybe it's much more unclear orambiguous. And, look, Dylan's a
kind of bridge in our culture.People from all sides of the
political spectrum cannot justappreciate his music, but
actually find some of theirviews mirrored back to them. And

(51:45):
Dylan could be seen as beingfor, but then in some ways not
supportive of the civil rightsmovement. By the late sixties,
he came out with a country albumand wouldn't say that he was
against the war in Vietnam.
I think he was, but he wouldn't.He frustrated interviewers'
attempts to get him to come outagainst the war. And he said
being for or against the war inthe abstract is meaningless,

(52:06):
sort of consistent with what youwere getting at, I think.

Tim Benson (52:08):
Mhmm.

Jeffrey Edward Green (52:09):
And then later, you know, he he he's a
icon of self reliant skepticalindividuality, pushing back on
organized religion and all otherinherited sources of value, but
then he becomes an evangelicalChristian. Yeah. He's a bridge
between, you know, skepticismand and theism. And, you know,
he's he has, a lot of pessimismand despondence in his music,

(52:31):
but there's often, also anemotion and sentiment of hope.
So, I guess a lot of greatartists will, not will defy any
easy categorization andpolitical label.
But even more than that, I thinkDylan can speak to some of the
divides or bridge some of thedivides in American culture or

(52:52):
broader, contemporary culture.

Tim Benson (52:54):
Yeah. And I think your point that, you know, as
you said, him not, you know,sort of going out of his way to
not endorse the anti warmovement or, even saying he was,
you know, against the war, whichhe probably was, and I'm almost
assuredly was. I mean, it's justthat seems to be something,

(53:16):
that's just in his characterthat he doesn't want to be or
that he doesn't want people toput labels on him or something
like like, I was wondering whenI was reading the book, I was
wondering if you were gonna getto it, and, it turns out you
didn't in the third part,because I was thinking about
that that interview we did with,I think it was Michael Gilmore

(53:38):
for Rolling Stone, after Obamagot elected and or reelected
maybe. I can't remember when theinterview was. And, like, I I
remember reading it at the time,and it was just like Michael
Gilmore being like, alright.
Can you tell us how much youlove Barack Obama? And, like,
say something nice about BarackObama. And Dylan just, like,

(53:59):
keeps, like, you know, just sortof not ducking it, but, but he
just doesn't wanna give the guywhat he wants. And, you know,
and and Gilmore is just like,you you know, can you say
something nice about Obama? And,like, Dylan, at one point, is
just like, what the fuck do youwant me to say?
Right? Like, and there's justsomething in and I don't know.

(54:23):
Something about Dylan, there'ssomething very opaque about him
as just like a person. Like,when it comes to, like, other,
like, musicians, you know, like,I feel like I get Springsteen,
you know, who Springsteen is or,you know, Prince or, like, Bowie

(54:43):
or, like, I I fundamentallyunderstand, like, who, you know,
they are. But, like, with Dylan,like, I still feel like I you
know, no freaking clue as to,like, what, you know, like, what
this guy or or who he is as aperson.
I mean, he's just very I thinkhe's done a much better job of,

(55:06):
like, handling mystique in a waythan, you know, anybody else of
of that, you know, that entire,like, rock or, you know, the,
sense that that the the conceptof rock artist, whoever. You
know, I think he's handled thatbetter than or, the mystique

(55:30):
thing, much more, well, I don'tknow. It's I don't know if it's
purposeful. I mean, it probablyis purposeful, but he's just,
he's hard to nail down. Youknow?

Jeffrey Edward Green (55:42):
Hard to nail down, opaque like you say,
surprising Yeah. With withmentalities, ideas, opinions
that that you didn't expect fromhim, maybe you hadn't considered
at all. And, that's part of,what makes him special, the the
the sense of mystery surroundinghim. And I both wanna be

(56:05):
appreciative of that in myaccount, but also push back
against this I'm not therephilosophy of Dylan. I'm
thinking now of that song of hisI'm not there, which becomes the
title of the wonderful film byTodd Haynes, that is about Dylan
with various different actorsplaying Dylan.
And and many commentators wouldsay this is their overall

(56:27):
theory, that he's just a aperson committed to endless self
invention, That there is noparticular, genuine, Dylan to be
understood. That he's always, aman in motion, and making use of
his freedom to try new ideas andnew personas out. And there's so
much that's true about that, butI feel as if it's too extreme to

(56:51):
suggest that our appreciation ofDylan is just an appreciation of
endless reinvention. I thinkthere are some recurring
patterns of of ideas,commitments, and we spoke about
one of them. I mean, there's nodoubt in my mind, and I don't
think anyone else is, that Dylanwas a part of the civil rights
movement and then Mhmm.
There's no doubt that he wasn'tan evangelical Christian and

(57:13):
then became one. And and sothere are some genuine, rich,
biographical features of hislife that he also sings about
that that lends some, air to towho he is, and it's not just I'm
there. At the same time, ininterpreting Dylan the way I do
is saying he's endlesslywrestling with these three

(57:35):
foundations, freedom, justice,and adherence to god, I tried to
respect the fact that there's noeasy label. There's no single or
final answer that he's giving,that there is indeed a lot of
motion. But I think it's motionthat's structured around some
enduring, concerns.
And to go back to your initialquestion about, you know, what

(57:56):
makes Dylan different, inaddition to his being so
profound and talking about,weighty issues, it's that
mobility, or opacity in yourterms that that I think is also
special. I mean, we have, youknow, Cat Stevens who becomes
Yousef Islam and go through aconversion around the same time
as Dylan and becomes up untilrecently, you know, a a focused

(58:20):
singer of an Islamic message.But Dylan has his gospel period,
and then the fervor of thatperiod dissipates. And he
returns to secular topics andsings about, more so than Cat
Stevens' Reese of Islam, singsabout doubt. Wonders if, you
know, at some in some moments,whether what he's just been
through is illusory.

(58:40):
So that's just one example, ofDylan experiencing, with great
depth and passion, variousmentalities, and I think in a
genuine and earnest way, but notstaying not staying put like you
expect more familiar people to,even more familiar artists. Bob
Marley never stopped being aRastafarian, So compare him to

(59:02):
Bob.

Tim Benson (59:02):
Oh, I actually I actually read that he converted
to Ethiopian Christianity aroundthe time of his death. So, I
mean I mean, but, like, hisentire yeah. Right. But I got I
get what you're saying. But Iwas so shocked by that too.
I always thought he, you know,died of Rasta. But, anyway,

(59:25):
sorry for cutting you off. Iknow we've already gone, like,
an hour. Do you have time to goa little bit longer? Because I
just wanted to ask you a littlebit about the the gospel period

Jeffrey Edward Green (59:35):
Sure.

Tim Benson (59:36):
Just because you said it was your I guess you
said it was your favorite periodof Dylan or or One

Jeffrey Edward Green (59:42):
of them. One of them. Yeah. One of them.
Yeah.

Tim Benson (59:44):
And it's it's the longest section of the book too,
and, I thought the mostinteresting as well. Yeah. So I
just wanna watch, so you writeor, you know, you propose that
the, the secular audience is thecore audience of Dylan's gospel
period or more precisely theconstituency in relation to

(01:00:06):
which his message finds itscharacteristic novelty and edge.
The fact that Dylan's audiencehas always been not at all
specifically Christian makes hisChristian conversion and gospel
period significant, not forbringing listeners to Christ,
but for exemplifying for secularand especially secularist
audience, how religious faith ispossible, how it can respect and

(01:00:26):
reflect intellectual integrity,and thus how the non religious
themselves possess the potentialto pursue religiosity at any
time. So I wonder if you couldjust, you know, expand on that
and talk about that a littlebit.

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:00:38):
Yeah. I think it's that last concept you
mentioned that that religion andnon religion ought to be seen as
plausible alternatives that anyof us at any time can inhabit. I
take that to be, what makesDylan's evangelical period
special. There's lots of otherpeople who have converted to
Christianity, preachingChristianity, and it's still

(01:00:58):
largely Christian culture. ButDylan, on the one hand, has
always had, as you just read, arelationship to a non Christian
audience that was often shockedby his, conversion, at least at
first.
And so they were listening toit, and they were coming at it
not as, future believers. Somepeople were converted as a
result of Dylan, but but mostwere not. But I I tried to show

(01:01:20):
that a sizable number of thosewho were not, nonetheless, could
learn from Dylan about thisissue of the plausibility of
their being religious, that weshouldn't just see ourselves as
inherently religious or nonreligious. And we shouldn't see
questions of religion as beingonly about matters of truth.
What it genuinely exists ordoesn't exist, that it's more a

(01:01:41):
question of existential stances,and that Dylan has operated in
multiple of these skepticalapproaches towards organized
religion in his early life,fervent evangelical Christianity
in the gospel period.
And then as I understand it, 40years into this post conversion
period of less fervent religiousfaith, more doubt, more

(01:02:02):
hesitancy, but never renouncingit. And Dylan in himself in
himself models alternateapproaches towards religion and
non religion. But and this is, Iguess, the real point. I tried
to show that in his music andstatements, he, demonstrates the
plausibility of religiosity to anon religious person. And so who

(01:02:23):
is the plomical target of thisperiod?
We said maybe the plemicaltarget of the sixties was the
complacent, triumphalist, virtuesignaling member of a movement
who wasn't honest about theirown lack of full commitment. I
think the the plemical target ofDylan in the gospel period is
the militant atheist, notatheism as such, but those who
think that atheism is superiorto theism, those who think that

(01:02:46):
atheism is more natural, morerational, more harmony with
history.

Tim Benson (01:02:50):
The Dawkins, Kitchens, Gilmore kind of
people. Yeah.

Jeffrey Edward Green: Absolutely. And, and I try to (01:02:54):
undefined
talk about 3 or 4 ways thatDylan, performs his religiosity
in a way that ought to beinstructive to militant
atheists. I I could explain thata bit more if you wanted, but

Tim Benson (01:03:20):
Sorry. My mic was muted. I didn't realize that.
No. We've already gone along.
So I won't have you do that.But, do you wanna talk to you
just real quick before we go,though? The I was kind of amused
by this when I was reading aboutit because I didn't know about
it. So, Joel Seldon has actuallybeen on this podcast, like, 3

(01:03:41):
times, maybe 4 at this point. Sohe's a friend of the show.
So when he popped up in here,like, I am, you know, that,
like, his reaction to, you know,seeing Dylan in concert in 79 or
80, you know, after hisconversion, the fact that it so

(01:04:02):
pissed off Dylan that, like,Dylan actually called him at
home to to yell at him about it.I had you know, like I said,
I've had him on the show a fewtimes, and I've I've never heard
that story. So next time I talkto him, I'm gonna have to I'm
gonna have to ask him about it.I'm just, pretty good one.

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:04:18):
Yeah. I mean oh, sorry.

Tim Benson (01:04:19):
Go ahead. No. Go ahead.

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:04:21):
Just I love that episode of Dylan's
life that he cared so much abouta negative 1980 review about his
gospel show that he called,Sullivan's house, ended up
speaking with Sullivan's wife,and told Sullivan's wife to tell
her husband, you know, yourhusband's lost his license to
review. And that that, you know,plays to another dimension of
Dylan, that he's he's humorous.He's he's he's, willing to

(01:04:43):
engage, in in surprising ways.There's tapes you can listen to
on YouTube with him having phoneconversations with AJ
Webbermann, kind of crank typefigure from the late sixties who
was really upset that Dylan leftthe civil rights movement and
wanted

Tim Benson (01:04:56):
Webbermann was the guy that used to, like, go
through his trash. Right?

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:04:58):
Yeah. And, actually, Dylan beat him up. But
but there's these tapes of ofhim talking on the phone with
with Webbermann. Webbermann'ssaying he's a sellout, and
Dylan's, like, arguing with him.So you see, you know, just a
candid Dylan caring about whathe's doing enough to to to deal
with these critics.
But but Sullivan's alsoimportant because I fast forward

(01:05:20):
to 2,008 when Sullivan's beinginterviewed retrospectively
about Dylan's gospel period. Andhe says, upon reflection, I
would have a lot more respectnow for what Dylan did, see it
as having more integrity. And tome, this is what Dylan's gospel
period in a nutshell is about ifwe wanna talk about what's
distinct about it. Educating,disciplining people like Selvin

(01:05:41):
not to become religious, but tohave more respect for those who
are religious.

Tim Benson (01:05:45):
Right. Yeah. No. And to your point about Dylan being
funny, I mean, people sort of, Ithink, don't realize how funny
of a cat he actually is. I mean,especially he's like a
songwriter.
Like, the songs like, let melike like Bob Dylan's a 115th
dream, you know, that kind ofstuff. Those, I always thought
those songs would make, wouldhave made really great videos,

(01:06:07):
you know, if they would havethem at the time. Just, you
know, Dylan getting involved inall this, like, crazy ass, you
know, things, just walkingaround being Dylan. But, anyway,
yeah, like I said, we kept youlong. I wish we had more time to
talk about the, the gospel stuffand, the third part of the book.

(01:06:28):
But, I just, I guess I'll justask you, like, one question on
that, and then I promise I'lllet you go or or 2 more
questions, but but this one,specifically on that third
section. Why is there ademocratic interest in taking,

(01:06:49):
profits or or people like Dylanseriously?

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:06:54):
Right. That's a good question. I think
that being a prophet is notexactly a democratic relation
because you just listen to theprophetic figure. You don't
elect them. You you heed them.
Nonetheless, there is a popularelement to prophetic movements.
They they have their forceprecisely because they inspire a

(01:07:17):
mass of people to be part of itand and and to to create a
following. And so I thinkinsofar as we care about the
people, insofar as we careabout, large numbers of people
for being large numbers, weshould be interested in those
figures who have inspired thepeople, who have made them take

(01:07:37):
heed, especially when thefigures who do that have so much
literary, poetic, prophetic heftto go along with it. And I think
Dylan, among the other thingsthat makes him so unusual, is
that he combines being a popcultural icon with with mass
appeal, on the one hand, with,great critical acclaim as a
literary figure on the other.And there's certainly lots of

(01:08:01):
other pop cultural figures.
There's dozens, not too many,but dozens of others who have
sold more records than he has.And there are, you know, modern
poets and other literary figureswe would, you know, just be be
as impressed by. But very fewpeople bring these two things
together, bring together a massappeal and such a profound
literary poetic, I would say,prophetic quality. And so any I

(01:08:24):
think anyone should beinterested in those who combine
those two things. But butinsofar as we care about the
people and not just in thetypical ways, you know, what
what what policies they want,what parties they're gonna vote
for, you know, we could say,what does it say about us in our
moment that this man has been sofascinating to us?
That's another way to ask himthe question of my book. What

(01:08:46):
does he reflect back to us, inbeing someone who has drawn
maybe people like you, peoplelike me, and so many others in.

Tim Benson (01:08:57):
Alright. Cool. Alright. So the final question,
normal exit question everybodygets, and you might have touched
on it there a little bit in yourlast answer, but, I'll go ahead
and ask it just in case there'sanything you wanna add. But, you
know, what would you like theaudience to get out of this

(01:09:17):
book?
Or, you know, what's the onething you'd want a reader to
take away from it having readit?

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:09:25):
Well, I suppose simply a deeper
appreciation for for Dylan'smusic, and to and to to see more
maybe what they already havebeen drawn to in in slightly
clearer terms, to or or at leastan apparatus that lets them say
more clearly to themselves whatthey find, fascinating about

(01:09:48):
Dylan. And if they've neverlistened to Dylan, maybe it's
it's some slight, encouragementto to be more fascinated.

Tim Benson (01:09:57):
Alright. And if you were going to, have a
recommendation for an entrywayinto Dylan for people who've
never listened to him before,what would you what would you
suggest they do? Or where shouldthey start?

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:10:11):
I think, I'll go with where I'm right at
right now. The the springtime inNew York album. It's fantastic.

Tim Benson (01:10:18):
Alright. Great. Okay. Again, the name of the
book is Bob Dylan, ProphetWithout God. Fantastic,
fascinating, extremely original,extremely creative, reading of
Dylan's life and his work, thatand uniquely so of all the books

(01:10:48):
I've ever read about Dylan, andI've got a whole shelf of them
somewhere.
I've read quite a bit of them.Really, really fascinating. It
took me it actually took mequite a bit to normally, you
know, I read these books reallyquickly when I do them for the

(01:11:09):
podcast, or I have to because I,you know, try to do, like, a
book a week, so it's a lot ofturnaround time. But I had some
vacation time, with the holiday,you know, Thanksgiving holiday
coming in. And, so, took it withme on vacation and had, you
know, a little bit more time todigest it than, than I normally
do, like the books that I I readon here.
That's one of the things thatsucks about doing, like, a book

(01:11:31):
a week. You don't really havetime to marinate with the book a
little bit before you have to goon to the next book and, you
know, sort of set your mind toit. So I had a lot of time to,
you know, really digest it, andI've been, you know, thinking
about it practically every daysince I started reading it. So
it's really, really, justfascinatingly good, look at, you

(01:11:56):
know, this idea of Dylan as aprophet. And I know we didn't
get to talk much about thegospel period or or, you know,
the the third section of thebook, which deals with, you
know, political realism andDylan's pessimism and, you know,
his linkage to the politicalrealist and, you know, the
paradox of political moralaction, disharmony of means and

(01:12:20):
ends, and all that sort ofstuff.
But it's so it's just, so I'mbummed we didn't get a chance to
talk about that stuff. But,really, really, really
interesting. Highly, highlyrecommended out there for
anybody who's interested in inDylan or in, moral philosophy or

(01:12:40):
political philosophy, anything,it's a fantastic, fantastic
work. And, again, once again,highly, highly recommend it to
everybody out there. So the nameof the book again, Bob Dylan,
prophet without God, the author,doctor Jeffrey Edward Green.
So, doctor Green, thank you soso much for coming on the
podcast to talk about the bookwith me. Thanks for staying a
little late. I appreciate it.And, you know, thank you for

(01:13:01):
taking the time out of your lifeto actually, you know, write the
sucker so that we could allenjoy the, the fruits of your
labor.

Jeffrey Edward Green (01:13:08):
So I appreciate it. That's very kind.
Happy to be here. Thank you.

Tim Benson (01:13:12):
Alright. Thanks a lot. And again, if you like this
podcast, please consider leavingus a 5 star review and sharing
with your friends. And if youhave any, questions or comments,
or if you have any suggestionsfor books you'd like to see,
discussed on this podcast, youcan always reach out to me at,
[e-mail]. That's tb e n s o n at heartland.org.
And for more information aboutthe Heartland Institute, you can

(01:13:33):
just go to heartland.org and,what else? Oh, yeah. We have
our, Twitter, x account. For thepodcast, you can follow us there
too at what is it? Atillbooks@illbooks.
So make sure you check that outand, you know, give us a follow,
all that kind of stuff. Yeah.That's pretty much it. So thanks

(01:13:53):
for listening, everybody. We'llsee you guys next time.
Take care. Love you, Robbie.Love you, mom. Bye bye.