December 23, 2024 • 23 mins
Kris O’Neill has a love letter to two girls who she misses terribly, her breasts.
After being diagnosed with breast cancer almost two years ago, Kris made the choice to go flat. A complex journey wrapped up in fear, celebration and survival.
Kris is now on a mission to change the perceptions of mastectomy. Talking to anyone who has gone flat or foob, or supporting someone who has, to help find the joy in the Breast Case Scenario.
Read Kris's full Little Love Story Here
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CREDITS:
Host & Producer: Grace Rouvray
Guest: Kristie O'Neill from Breast Case Scenario Podcast
Audio Producer: Lu Hill
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to another Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges the
traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this podcast
on the Gatagul people of the Eor Nation. We pay
our respects to their elders past and present, and extend
that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Rate islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi, it's Annalise Todd here from This Glorious Mess introducing
Hot Pod Summer, one hundred hours of curated listening across
the Mummameer network, just for you to escape the chaos
and enjoy with the kids at home and the weather
warming up. We've got episodes of Little Love Stories and
(01:04):
Parents Anonymous to share. Little Love Stories is an open
hearted conversation with someone who has loved to share that
love can be to anything. Maybe it's a time in
someone's life, a person, or even an object. It's all
about discovering the magic everywhere you look. If you're looking
(01:24):
for something else to listen to, Mama Mia is officially
presenting one hundred hours of summer listens, from meaningful conversations
to incredible stories, fashion, beauty and more.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There's a link in the show notes.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I Love you, Have you lived with you?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
From Mamma Mia.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
This is this glorious mess, and welcome back to Little
Love Stories. I'm Grace Ruvery, the producer of this glorious mess.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What defines a tough time?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
That's saying tough time is often the term used by
the viewer on the outside and not the person experiencing it,
because for those who are actually experiencing the tough time,
it's more like a kaleidoscope of human emotions, morphing and
changing every second from hard, terrifying, refreshing and even exhilarating.
(02:20):
Today's Little Love story comes from Chris O'Neill. Almost two
years ago, Chris was diagnosed with breast cancer and she
went through and continues to wade through a myriad of
complex emotions. One of those is her now very layered
position as suddenly an inspirational survivor.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Is because you have this portrayal of what a survivor is,
which is often one dimensional, sometimes you know, very masculine,
and it's a juxtaposition to what it is actually that
you feel inside. It's more than just surviving. It's resilient,
it's courageousness. It's being terrified and then having to push
(03:04):
on anyway because, like you said, you actually have no choice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Whilst her survival is of course a cause for celebration,
Chris had to make the choice to get a double
mistectomy and it kicks downed a whole new journey now
trying to figure out who she was in the aftermath,
whilst also being grateful that she's here today.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
And I don't want to feel regret. It's too late
for regret. But I also feel like it's like a
time in my life that it just feels like it's
not even me anymore, and I really am fundamentally different.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Chris didn't write a love letter to herself about resilience
or surviving. Chris write a letter to her breasts, her girls,
the choice to say goodbye to them, and the choice
her choice to say no to reconstruction.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
We should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter
if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am
a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter
if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I
should have all of my choices on the table, and
I should not have to fight or even ask for
(04:15):
one that's not offered to me, but he's actually available
to me if I choose.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
There's another word that gets thrown up round from the outside,
and that's legacy. It's used as a way to discuss death,
to keep a memory alive, or reflect on a person.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
But for Chris and our.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Best friend Cass, they're creating a living legacy to help
people feel seen and supported, as well as finding a
way to love their new self after going through such
fundamental change. But before we get there, here's what a
little bit of love sounds like today.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I think it just unconditional caring, really and absolutely happy.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
It's like, regardless of highs and lows, being.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Completely comfortable, knowing that you're secure, you have that person,
They've got you.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
De la Maree, very beautiful, passion, romantic.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's like the hardest thing to describe.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I reckon. I think you know when you feel it warmth.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
My husband's ninety three and I'm ninety one. This is
our seventy eight year ups and downs, having a squabble,
all sorts of interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's kind it dental, It's like caring.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Chris. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
The house stories I want to start with the term
survivor and how that can be a controversial term, and
I think people can think that it's supportive or you've
gone through this journey, but it can be quite polarizing
for some people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Could you tell me your relationship with the word survivor.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Yeah, I probably don't really identify myself as a survivor,
but I do know, like you said, it is polarizing,
and I think it's actually very individual. From what I've
seen in social media and the amazing humans that I
follow that inspire me, some of them very much identify
(06:06):
as survivors and it's in their title. But then I
just think you have such a varying degree of greatness
when it comes to what it means to survive, what
it means to thrive, or what it means to be
a previver, which we also see is an example of
someone identifying their journey either with a health challenge or
(06:30):
preventing health in some respects cancer. It's very individual what
makes them a survivor to you? And how can you
be more articulate in that space? So, if you are
looking at someone as a survivor, is it because they're
showing resilience? Is it because they're showing vulnerability. Is it
(06:50):
because they're showing both and then core that out so
that you don't have to worry about labeling people or
offending people.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, it's like when people put this weight on you,
it's from the outside. Do you feel I guess an
imposter syndrome at being seen as a survivor or you're
a motivational speaker now that you've had this shit thing
happened to you, where in reality, you didn't have a
choice but to face it. I know you and your
podcast co host Cass have recently done an episode on this.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
YEP, we talk about this often. Is because you have
this portrayal of what a survivor is, which is often
one dimensional, sometimes very masculine, and it's a juxtaposition to
what it is actually that you feel inside. It's more
than just surviving. It's resilience, it's courageousness. It's being terrified,
(07:43):
it's being doubtful, it's feeling like absolute shit and then
having to push on anyway, because, like you said, you
actually have no choice. And I guarantee that from an
outsider's point of view, if you were placed in that position,
they would absolutely do the same thing. And it's the
essence of what we talk about. Stan Grant talks about
(08:05):
that when you put in a situation where you have
no choice, it's the essence of you that rises to
the surface for you to be able to overcome the challenge,
whether it be sickness.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Whatever it is. And it is a form of grief.
And that's something that you written in your little love story.
Could you just read out that part for me.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I often place my hands on the space you both
used to sit. I press down like an iron, remembering
the warmth you both left that now feels cold and numb.
Your absence is reflected in the most intimate of moments.
I have photos to remember you buy, but it is
way too early to gaze on those.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And for what purpose would it serve.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
There is a great heaviness to your absence, a feeling
not unlike grief.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's just sad.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's going to hit different on different days, isn't it.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
And that's what's so complex about grief. Sometimes you do
feel really positive, and sometimes you feel the quiet spaces
with things to do, tasks to complete, so you can
always almost distract yourself from the grief and it just
goes in waves.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So it's about.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Riding the highs, riding the lows, and drawing on the
support you need.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I want to talk about the photos that you have
you haven't looked at. Why haven't you looked at them yet?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Because I'm afraid of what it will surface. Yeah, I
guess it's a form of avoidance. And I don't want
to feel regret. It's too late for regret. I think
it just feels like it's not even me anymore. And
what this I guess event or life challenge that I've
(09:46):
had to go through has just created I don't know.
I'm just so different. I know it sounds very cliche,
but I really am fundamentally different. So now I'm in
this kind of self discovery phase of how I now,
I guess identify, and so I just don't think I'm ready.
(10:09):
But you know, what might be an anti climax. I
could look at those photos and go, oh gosh, that
was nothing.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
What was I worried about?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, the fundamental different person is it's a life marker.
All of these moments in life before it happened, Like
that's the last page of a chapter, but you have
started the next chapter. Yeah, and in that next chapter,
I would like you to read the next part of
your essay where you talk about the relief and finding oxygen,
which I'm really curious to hear about.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Like an unfeeling fist that has been clenched for way
too long, your loss has returned oxygen to aspects of
myself that I buried under to do lists and tasks
that filled every moment of my waking life. I no
longer swallow uncomfortableness like dry bread clogging up my airways,
but instead I cry all types of cries, really silent cries,
(10:57):
loud cries, angry cries, marathon like cries, ugly cries. I
think I've experienced them more. If the body keeps the score.
I've been on a losing streak until now. What do
you think your losing streak was up until that time?
I've described myself as a one dimensional person, where ye,
(11:21):
my identity was just wrapped up in what I.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Did for work.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
I love my work. It makes a difference, but it's
also relentless, and I'm the kind of person that I
thrive on fast paced type of environment, so it was
almost like it was feeding a negative part of myself.
(11:46):
And it ended up just taking over my whole life.
And I've done that for most of my working life,
and so when this actually happened, the first emotion that
I felt was relief, which is really fucked up. How
do you feel relief? Like it does not make sense?
And yeah, I had to have six weeks off and
(12:08):
that really woke me up because I thought, yeah, that
was a real turning point for me. And I took
those six weeks to really evaluate, first of all, around
how I was going to turn back up at work.
So I made some really key decisions in that respect,
but also bring to the surface all the other parts
(12:30):
of me that i'd pretty much lay dormant because I
let work just overrun my life.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
What is that re entry back into life like where
you've gone through something massive and then you are sort
of being met with people from a voyeuristic perspective of
you know, you're kind of behind a amusing an exhibit
of like survivor Brave. What was it like having to
deal with the conversations with people that they put on you,
(13:07):
And I guess sometimes you end up counseling them through
your journey.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
You know, I'm so lucky to be surrounded by so
many incredible humans. You know, whether I work with them,
live with them, I loved by them, and so everyone
just means so well. I always take that with thankfulness really,
and you know some people will yeah place that kind
(13:32):
of survivor or that bravery title on you, or ask
you how you're doing it and how you're possibly moving
on with you couldn't possibly, Yes, I couldn't possibly, which
comes from a place of fear, right, So I think
it was actually really empowering because being in a place
where I had to undergo this experience and no one
else had to, it gave me a reason to change,
(13:57):
and it gave me permission to do so.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You do go into talk about in the essay that
it's not easy, like to make that decision, even though
it is about saving your life, but it's still not
easy to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I'd love for you to read that part.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
This decision came with great anxiety, and the inception of
this anxiety stemming from the literature that I was reading
about masectomy and the clear messaging that to me favored
reconstruction as a way to assure or improve my quality
of life. I did not have to fight to go flat,
like so many other women in this world have to.
But I did have to clearly ask for it. Beyond
(14:35):
surgery and physical recovery, there is still not enough guidance
on how to address my grief or navigate my wobbly
moments beyond flippant advice to go and seek psychological help.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
What is fight to go flat? That's not a term
that I've heard before. I'd love to know more about it.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it was a
high grade form of cancer called ductor castinoma in situ,
so I got it early. It was early form, it
was not yet invasive, and so when I first got diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I thought, oh, thank God, I'll.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Just get that thing cut out and I'll just move
on with my life. Might have to have a radiation,
have a couple of days off work, and that I
can resume my one dimensional life. I was then rudely
told that my mass was so large and because of
the ratio of the mass that was inside my left
breast compared to the size of my breast, because I
had quite small breasts, they were unable to save that breast.
(15:30):
And so what I had to do was make the
decision around whether I would go flat, or go with
an immediate reconstruction, or go with a delayed reconstruction, or
have a double miss ectomy. Now, they were all the
options that I could take, but the only options that
were offered to me was either an immediate reconstruction or
(15:54):
a delayed reconstruction of the left breast. And so when
I talk about fighting to go flat, the challenge in
this arena is that so many women across the world
are not afforded that option. If they're brave enough like
I was, to actually ask for it, and if they
(16:15):
have a surgeon like I did, who so graciously said,
of course, it's your body, it's your decision, some surgeons refuse. Basically,
we should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter
if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am
a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter
(16:36):
if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I
should have all of my choices on the table, and
I should not have to fight or even ask for
one that's not offered to me, but he is actually
available to me if I choose. And so whether it
was my age, whether it's just the surgical culture, whatever
it is, we know that women across the world oftentimes
(17:00):
have to fight to go flat, and in some cases
actually lose that fight. Because in my case, I asked
for a double missectomy, knowing that I would be taking
my second breast, which was completely healthy tissue, and I
did that for many reasons, and yeah, my breast surgeon said, yes,
of course I didn't want implants, and I know many
women do and that's their choice, but for me personally,
(17:24):
I knew I didn't want implants and thankfully was given
that option.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
As part of the section that you just read out,
you said, there's not a lot that's been done to
support you apart from go and seek psychological help. What
options do you want to see out there for women
like yourself who are struggling after this procedure.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
I can only talk in the breast cancer area and
my own personal experience. There is such a wealth of support,
and I mean I'm talking about myself. I am a
woman in a metropolitan city who has a very stable job,
who can take leave. I have so much support and
access to surgical procedures and options and medical support, and
(18:06):
I know that's not the case for everyone. So through
that lens, after the surgery, after you physically heal, after
the scars, what then after the breast can nurses stop
coming and calling? What is actually available from there? Because
it's not just about the physical recovery, it's about navigating
(18:29):
the world in your new body, in your new identity.
And yes, I could and do see a psychologist, but
it's more of a community that we need to see
that recognizes being flat as about a choice, recognizes that
women of all ages, sizes, colors may want to go flat,
(18:52):
that's okay, and that we should be able to embark
on the world just like every other human, whether you've
got a boob or not.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What you're doing now is you're creating that community yourself. Yes,
I'd love for you to tell me about the podcast
that you have with your friend, yes, and what you're
hoping to deal with it.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
So my best friend Cass, who's also had a double
mis ectomy for a very different reason, we decided to
start a podcast and that podcast is called breast Case Scenario.
So the inception of the idea started when I walked
into this was two weeks before I was to have
my surgery. I started thinking about prosthetics because at the
(19:33):
time I was most worried about looking like I had boobs,
even though I hadn't, and that's just completely different now.
So I walked into this brass store that showed mastectomy
where and she directed me to the offerings of swimwear.
I looked at the rack and just I was just
really sad actually, because nothing there represented what I would wear.
(19:56):
It was really interesting. I thought, Wow, I think there's
a gap in the market here. So that's how it started.
But then it evolved into the navigating the world and
body and identity and self love, all of that kind
of thing. And we realized that even between Cass and I,
yes we've both had double misseectomies, but our scenarios cannot
(20:17):
be more different. And so we've created space of like
minded humans who can engage with light, with laughter, with gratefulness,
with reflection about our experiences, and support each other post
surgical perspective of misectomy. And we love doing every minute
(20:40):
of it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And what's the response been.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Have you found more women who have been like, yes,
thank you, We've needed this.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Yeah, it's been very emotional. Actually, you know, it's an
absolute labor of love. Cass and I both work full
time and we spend every other waking minute of our
lives just delving deep into creativity. It's a form of writing,
right And when you get the feedback from women saying
thank you so much for putting this out here, you
(21:06):
have put words to how I feel, and I wasn't
able to articulate them. In some respects, our listeners are
actually putting into words things that we can't articulate ourselves
because we're still processing and try to understand that psychological
aspect of this event happening. We've just met so many
(21:26):
incredible people along the way. We have a long list
of people we'd like to interview or have interviewed. You know,
we're all about inclusivity. So when we're talking about maseectomy,
yes it predominantly impacts women with breast cancer, but there's
also prophilectic misectomies, there's also masseectomies in men, and there's
(21:48):
also top surgery for those undertaking gender transitions. So we
are going to represent the more and we are really
excited about that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So we end every little love stories by asking what
does love mean to you?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Well, for me, When I think of what love means
to me, now that I've fifteen months postmasectomy, I think
it all comes down to presence, giving someone your unreserved presence,
and that's something that I don't think I did very
well up until that time. I think I was constantly
(22:23):
distracted about what I should be doing instead of engaging
with my beautiful nephews or nieces or sisters, or mother
or father or my own family. So, whether it be
by giving your time or prioritizing what you hold deer
in terms of your values, I think that's really important. Yes,
it's giving up blocks of time and days, but it's
(22:45):
also in the fleeting moments with those that you spend
the most time with. So for me, my two beautiful
boys and my husband, and just taking advantage of all
those small moments that you have dinner together because those
moments are so few far in between. I mean, I
have teenage boys, so they don't want to bar of me,
(23:06):
and putting the phone down, sitting down and taking the
time to bring your whole self because they deserve your
whole self. That's what love means to me.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Thank you so much for sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Thank you for having me thank you for listening to
Little Love Stories. You can read Chris's full essay on
the mum and mea website. There is a link to
it in our show notes. If you have a love
story to share, we'd love to hear it. Don't be
afraid to think outside the box of the story you
want to tell and the love you want to share.
You can find all the details on how to submit
your story in our show notes
You're listening to another Mia podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges the
traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this podcast
on the Gatagul people of the Eor Nation. We pay
our respects to their elders past and present, and extend
that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Rate islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi, it's Annalise Todd here from This Glorious Mess introducing
Hot Pod Summer, one hundred hours of curated listening across
the Mummameer network, just for you to escape the chaos
and enjoy with the kids at home and the weather
warming up. We've got episodes of Little Love Stories and
(01:04):
Parents Anonymous to share. Little Love Stories is an open
hearted conversation with someone who has loved to share that
love can be to anything. Maybe it's a time in
someone's life, a person, or even an object. It's all
about discovering the magic everywhere you look. If you're looking
(01:24):
for something else to listen to, Mama Mia is officially
presenting one hundred hours of summer listens, from meaningful conversations
to incredible stories, fashion, beauty and more.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There's a link in the show notes.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
I Love you, Have you lived with you?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
From Mamma Mia.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
This is this glorious mess, and welcome back to Little
Love Stories. I'm Grace Ruvery, the producer of this glorious mess.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
What defines a tough time?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
That's saying tough time is often the term used by
the viewer on the outside and not the person experiencing it,
because for those who are actually experiencing the tough time,
it's more like a kaleidoscope of human emotions, morphing and
changing every second from hard, terrifying, refreshing and even exhilarating.
(02:20):
Today's Little Love story comes from Chris O'Neill. Almost two
years ago, Chris was diagnosed with breast cancer and she
went through and continues to wade through a myriad of
complex emotions. One of those is her now very layered
position as suddenly an inspirational survivor.
Speaker 5 (02:41):
Is because you have this portrayal of what a survivor is,
which is often one dimensional, sometimes you know, very masculine,
and it's a juxtaposition to what it is actually that
you feel inside. It's more than just surviving. It's resilient,
it's courageousness. It's being terrified and then having to push
(03:04):
on anyway because, like you said, you actually have no choice.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Whilst her survival is of course a cause for celebration,
Chris had to make the choice to get a double
mistectomy and it kicks downed a whole new journey now
trying to figure out who she was in the aftermath,
whilst also being grateful that she's here today.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
And I don't want to feel regret. It's too late
for regret. But I also feel like it's like a
time in my life that it just feels like it's
not even me anymore, and I really am fundamentally different.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Chris didn't write a love letter to herself about resilience
or surviving. Chris write a letter to her breasts, her girls,
the choice to say goodbye to them, and the choice
her choice to say no to reconstruction.
Speaker 5 (03:54):
We should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter
if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am
a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter
if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I
should have all of my choices on the table, and
I should not have to fight or even ask for
(04:15):
one that's not offered to me, but he's actually available
to me if I choose.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
There's another word that gets thrown up round from the outside,
and that's legacy. It's used as a way to discuss death,
to keep a memory alive, or reflect on a person.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
But for Chris and our.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Best friend Cass, they're creating a living legacy to help
people feel seen and supported, as well as finding a
way to love their new self after going through such
fundamental change. But before we get there, here's what a
little bit of love sounds like today.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
I think it just unconditional caring, really and absolutely happy.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
It's like, regardless of highs and lows, being.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Completely comfortable, knowing that you're secure, you have that person,
They've got you.
Speaker 5 (04:58):
De la Maree, very beautiful, passion, romantic.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
It's like the hardest thing to describe.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I reckon. I think you know when you feel it warmth.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
My husband's ninety three and I'm ninety one. This is
our seventy eight year ups and downs, having a squabble,
all sorts of interesting thing.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's kind it dental, It's like caring.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Chris. I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
The house stories I want to start with the term
survivor and how that can be a controversial term, and
I think people can think that it's supportive or you've
gone through this journey, but it can be quite polarizing
for some people.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Could you tell me your relationship with the word survivor.
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Yeah, I probably don't really identify myself as a survivor,
but I do know, like you said, it is polarizing,
and I think it's actually very individual. From what I've
seen in social media and the amazing humans that I
follow that inspire me, some of them very much identify
(06:06):
as survivors and it's in their title. But then I
just think you have such a varying degree of greatness
when it comes to what it means to survive, what
it means to thrive, or what it means to be
a previver, which we also see is an example of
someone identifying their journey either with a health challenge or
(06:30):
preventing health in some respects cancer. It's very individual what
makes them a survivor to you? And how can you
be more articulate in that space? So, if you are
looking at someone as a survivor, is it because they're
showing resilience? Is it because they're showing vulnerability. Is it
(06:50):
because they're showing both and then core that out so
that you don't have to worry about labeling people or
offending people.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Yeah, it's like when people put this weight on you,
it's from the outside. Do you feel I guess an
imposter syndrome at being seen as a survivor or you're
a motivational speaker now that you've had this shit thing
happened to you, where in reality, you didn't have a
choice but to face it. I know you and your
podcast co host Cass have recently done an episode on this.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
YEP, we talk about this often. Is because you have
this portrayal of what a survivor is, which is often
one dimensional, sometimes very masculine, and it's a juxtaposition to
what it is actually that you feel inside. It's more
than just surviving. It's resilience, it's courageousness. It's being terrified,
(07:43):
it's being doubtful, it's feeling like absolute shit and then
having to push on anyway, because, like you said, you
actually have no choice. And I guarantee that from an
outsider's point of view, if you were placed in that position,
they would absolutely do the same thing. And it's the
essence of what we talk about. Stan Grant talks about
(08:05):
that when you put in a situation where you have
no choice, it's the essence of you that rises to
the surface for you to be able to overcome the challenge,
whether it be sickness.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Whatever it is. And it is a form of grief.
And that's something that you written in your little love story.
Could you just read out that part for me.
Speaker 5 (08:24):
I often place my hands on the space you both
used to sit. I press down like an iron, remembering
the warmth you both left that now feels cold and numb.
Your absence is reflected in the most intimate of moments.
I have photos to remember you buy, but it is
way too early to gaze on those.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And for what purpose would it serve.
Speaker 5 (08:46):
There is a great heaviness to your absence, a feeling
not unlike grief.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
It's just sad.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's going to hit different on different days, isn't it.
That's exactly right.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
And that's what's so complex about grief. Sometimes you do
feel really positive, and sometimes you feel the quiet spaces
with things to do, tasks to complete, so you can
always almost distract yourself from the grief and it just
goes in waves.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So it's about.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Riding the highs, riding the lows, and drawing on the
support you need.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
I want to talk about the photos that you have
you haven't looked at. Why haven't you looked at them yet?
Speaker 5 (09:24):
Because I'm afraid of what it will surface. Yeah, I
guess it's a form of avoidance. And I don't want
to feel regret. It's too late for regret. I think
it just feels like it's not even me anymore. And
what this I guess event or life challenge that I've
(09:46):
had to go through has just created I don't know.
I'm just so different. I know it sounds very cliche,
but I really am fundamentally different. So now I'm in
this kind of self discovery phase of how I now,
I guess identify, and so I just don't think I'm ready.
(10:09):
But you know, what might be an anti climax. I
could look at those photos and go, oh gosh, that
was nothing.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
What was I worried about?
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, the fundamental different person is it's a life marker.
All of these moments in life before it happened, Like
that's the last page of a chapter, but you have
started the next chapter. Yeah, and in that next chapter,
I would like you to read the next part of
your essay where you talk about the relief and finding oxygen,
which I'm really curious to hear about.
Speaker 5 (10:35):
Like an unfeeling fist that has been clenched for way
too long, your loss has returned oxygen to aspects of
myself that I buried under to do lists and tasks
that filled every moment of my waking life. I no
longer swallow uncomfortableness like dry bread clogging up my airways,
but instead I cry all types of cries, really silent cries,
(10:57):
loud cries, angry cries, marathon like cries, ugly cries. I
think I've experienced them more. If the body keeps the score.
I've been on a losing streak until now. What do
you think your losing streak was up until that time?
I've described myself as a one dimensional person, where ye,
(11:21):
my identity was just wrapped up in what I.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Did for work.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
I love my work. It makes a difference, but it's
also relentless, and I'm the kind of person that I
thrive on fast paced type of environment, so it was
almost like it was feeding a negative part of myself.
(11:46):
And it ended up just taking over my whole life.
And I've done that for most of my working life,
and so when this actually happened, the first emotion that
I felt was relief, which is really fucked up. How
do you feel relief? Like it does not make sense?
And yeah, I had to have six weeks off and
(12:08):
that really woke me up because I thought, yeah, that
was a real turning point for me. And I took
those six weeks to really evaluate, first of all, around
how I was going to turn back up at work.
So I made some really key decisions in that respect,
but also bring to the surface all the other parts
(12:30):
of me that i'd pretty much lay dormant because I
let work just overrun my life.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
What is that re entry back into life like where
you've gone through something massive and then you are sort
of being met with people from a voyeuristic perspective of
you know, you're kind of behind a amusing an exhibit
of like survivor Brave. What was it like having to
deal with the conversations with people that they put on you,
(13:07):
And I guess sometimes you end up counseling them through
your journey.
Speaker 5 (13:11):
You know, I'm so lucky to be surrounded by so
many incredible humans. You know, whether I work with them,
live with them, I loved by them, and so everyone
just means so well. I always take that with thankfulness really,
and you know some people will yeah place that kind
(13:32):
of survivor or that bravery title on you, or ask
you how you're doing it and how you're possibly moving
on with you couldn't possibly, Yes, I couldn't possibly, which
comes from a place of fear, right, So I think
it was actually really empowering because being in a place
where I had to undergo this experience and no one
else had to, it gave me a reason to change,
(13:57):
and it gave me permission to do so.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
You do go into talk about in the essay that
it's not easy, like to make that decision, even though
it is about saving your life, but it's still not
easy to make that decision.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
I'd love for you to read that part.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
This decision came with great anxiety, and the inception of
this anxiety stemming from the literature that I was reading
about masectomy and the clear messaging that to me favored
reconstruction as a way to assure or improve my quality
of life. I did not have to fight to go flat,
like so many other women in this world have to.
But I did have to clearly ask for it. Beyond
(14:35):
surgery and physical recovery, there is still not enough guidance
on how to address my grief or navigate my wobbly
moments beyond flippant advice to go and seek psychological help.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
What is fight to go flat? That's not a term
that I've heard before. I'd love to know more about it.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
When I was diagnosed with breast cancer, it was a
high grade form of cancer called ductor castinoma in situ,
so I got it early. It was early form, it
was not yet invasive, and so when I first got diagnosed.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
I thought, oh, thank God, I'll.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
Just get that thing cut out and I'll just move
on with my life. Might have to have a radiation,
have a couple of days off work, and that I
can resume my one dimensional life. I was then rudely
told that my mass was so large and because of
the ratio of the mass that was inside my left
breast compared to the size of my breast, because I
had quite small breasts, they were unable to save that breast.
(15:30):
And so what I had to do was make the
decision around whether I would go flat, or go with
an immediate reconstruction, or go with a delayed reconstruction, or
have a double miss ectomy. Now, they were all the
options that I could take, but the only options that
were offered to me was either an immediate reconstruction or
(15:54):
a delayed reconstruction of the left breast. And so when
I talk about fighting to go flat, the challenge in
this arena is that so many women across the world
are not afforded that option. If they're brave enough like
I was, to actually ask for it, and if they
(16:15):
have a surgeon like I did, who so graciously said,
of course, it's your body, it's your decision, some surgeons refuse. Basically,
we should be afforded choice, every choice. It shouldn't matter
if I'm a woman. It shouldn't matter if I am
a man. It shouldn't matter my age, it shouldn't matter
(16:36):
if I've had children or not. It's not discriminative. I
should have all of my choices on the table, and
I should not have to fight or even ask for
one that's not offered to me, but he is actually
available to me if I choose. And so whether it
was my age, whether it's just the surgical culture, whatever
it is, we know that women across the world oftentimes
(17:00):
have to fight to go flat, and in some cases
actually lose that fight. Because in my case, I asked
for a double missectomy, knowing that I would be taking
my second breast, which was completely healthy tissue, and I
did that for many reasons, and yeah, my breast surgeon said, yes,
of course I didn't want implants, and I know many
women do and that's their choice, but for me personally,
(17:24):
I knew I didn't want implants and thankfully was given
that option.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
As part of the section that you just read out,
you said, there's not a lot that's been done to
support you apart from go and seek psychological help. What
options do you want to see out there for women
like yourself who are struggling after this procedure.
Speaker 5 (17:44):
I can only talk in the breast cancer area and
my own personal experience. There is such a wealth of support,
and I mean I'm talking about myself. I am a
woman in a metropolitan city who has a very stable job,
who can take leave. I have so much support and
access to surgical procedures and options and medical support, and
(18:06):
I know that's not the case for everyone. So through
that lens, after the surgery, after you physically heal, after
the scars, what then after the breast can nurses stop
coming and calling? What is actually available from there? Because
it's not just about the physical recovery, it's about navigating
(18:29):
the world in your new body, in your new identity.
And yes, I could and do see a psychologist, but
it's more of a community that we need to see
that recognizes being flat as about a choice, recognizes that
women of all ages, sizes, colors may want to go flat,
(18:52):
that's okay, and that we should be able to embark
on the world just like every other human, whether you've
got a boob or not.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
What you're doing now is you're creating that community yourself. Yes,
I'd love for you to tell me about the podcast
that you have with your friend, yes, and what you're
hoping to deal with it.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
So my best friend Cass, who's also had a double
mis ectomy for a very different reason, we decided to
start a podcast and that podcast is called breast Case Scenario.
So the inception of the idea started when I walked
into this was two weeks before I was to have
my surgery. I started thinking about prosthetics because at the
(19:33):
time I was most worried about looking like I had boobs,
even though I hadn't, and that's just completely different now.
So I walked into this brass store that showed mastectomy
where and she directed me to the offerings of swimwear.
I looked at the rack and just I was just
really sad actually, because nothing there represented what I would wear.
(19:56):
It was really interesting. I thought, Wow, I think there's
a gap in the market here. So that's how it started.
But then it evolved into the navigating the world and
body and identity and self love, all of that kind
of thing. And we realized that even between Cass and I,
yes we've both had double misseectomies, but our scenarios cannot
(20:17):
be more different. And so we've created space of like
minded humans who can engage with light, with laughter, with gratefulness,
with reflection about our experiences, and support each other post
surgical perspective of misectomy. And we love doing every minute
(20:40):
of it.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
And what's the response been.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Have you found more women who have been like, yes,
thank you, We've needed this.
Speaker 5 (20:46):
Yeah, it's been very emotional. Actually, you know, it's an
absolute labor of love. Cass and I both work full
time and we spend every other waking minute of our
lives just delving deep into creativity. It's a form of writing,
right And when you get the feedback from women saying
thank you so much for putting this out here, you
(21:06):
have put words to how I feel, and I wasn't
able to articulate them. In some respects, our listeners are
actually putting into words things that we can't articulate ourselves
because we're still processing and try to understand that psychological
aspect of this event happening. We've just met so many
(21:26):
incredible people along the way. We have a long list
of people we'd like to interview or have interviewed. You know,
we're all about inclusivity. So when we're talking about maseectomy,
yes it predominantly impacts women with breast cancer, but there's
also prophilectic misectomies, there's also masseectomies in men, and there's
(21:48):
also top surgery for those undertaking gender transitions. So we
are going to represent the more and we are really
excited about that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So we end every little love stories by asking what
does love mean to you?
Speaker 5 (22:02):
Well, for me, When I think of what love means
to me, now that I've fifteen months postmasectomy, I think
it all comes down to presence, giving someone your unreserved presence,
and that's something that I don't think I did very
well up until that time. I think I was constantly
(22:23):
distracted about what I should be doing instead of engaging
with my beautiful nephews or nieces or sisters, or mother
or father or my own family. So, whether it be
by giving your time or prioritizing what you hold deer
in terms of your values, I think that's really important. Yes,
it's giving up blocks of time and days, but it's
(22:45):
also in the fleeting moments with those that you spend
the most time with. So for me, my two beautiful
boys and my husband, and just taking advantage of all
those small moments that you have dinner together because those
moments are so few far in between. I mean, I
have teenage boys, so they don't want to bar of me,
(23:06):
and putting the phone down, sitting down and taking the
time to bring your whole self because they deserve your
whole self. That's what love means to me.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Thank you so much for sharing your story.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Thank you for having me thank you for listening to
Little Love Stories. You can read Chris's full essay on
the mum and mea website. There is a link to
it in our show notes. If you have a love
story to share, we'd love to hear it. Don't be
afraid to think outside the box of the story you
want to tell and the love you want to share.
You can find all the details on how to submit
your story in our show notes
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