December 21, 2025 • 36 mins
Big news, friends. Jessie Stephens and Amelia Lester are bringing a whole new vibe to parenting podcasts... introducing: Parenting Out Loud.
If you're deep in the trenches, Parenting Out Loud will help make your world feel just that little bit bigger with the week's hot topics explored, examined and digested. Because if parents are thinking about it, we're talking about it.
This summer we've curated your Help I Have A Teenager playlist with a healthy dose of culture-savvy conversation parents actually want - Parenting Out Loud.
On this week's episode, grandparents get a long overdue performance review, we unpack the article that stopped us in our tracks, take a deep dive into Mormon Wives (and mothers), and investigate the playroom that got Amelia all riled up.
Plus, recommendations: A fool-proof recipe, a genius toy to get kids off screens and a book that shines a light on sibling relationships.
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Recommendations
Jessie wants you to bake these oat bars and recommends the toy, Tonies.
Amelia wants you to read Intermezzo by Sally Rooney.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mumma mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this
podcast on the Gatagoul people of the Eur Nation. We
pay our respects to their elders past and present, and
extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torres strained Islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia
and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast,
Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening
with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents
actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissible episodes
right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted.
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
(01:03):
Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across
the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Hello and welcome to Parents out Loud. I am Jesse
Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester. We are
embarking on a mini series all about what's happening this
week through the lens of being a parent. And to
be clear, we are not going to be talking about
wheatbix in our hair or vomit on our shirts. This
is not your mother's group. It's a series that we
(01:39):
hope will make your world feel just a little bit bigger.
In short, if parents are thinking about it, we are
talking about it. Welcome Amelia Lester. How old are your
kids now?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And it's not all the day care fes.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
No, it's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia
from the US, where I've spent the last twenty years
on and off last year, and I guess I should
say that in my day job while my children are
at school, I am a journalist.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as own. And you may know my
voice from mummy are out loud or I also hosted
The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire and
Hello Bump, which is all about pregnancy I'm on Mummy
Out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm sure
you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents are
(02:38):
not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since when
did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the boy
who came back, the searingly honest article that got us
thinking about what it means when your world as a
parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon Wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(03:00):
this secret lives of Mormon wives, We've got tadwife culture.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(03:39):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yes, well, I think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(04:24):
the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home,
and there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So Ballerina Farmer's Mormon.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yes, And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it. Because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house. Yes,
(04:53):
really works.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a loophole which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and wear all. Consuming it and making money is part
(05:19):
of Mormonism in or way. It's not part of Catholicism.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States, I believe in
upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringing them back knowledge to this and it
makes sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy, and I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting, rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Lots of soft my god, this is crazy talk, Jesse.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(06:33):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging Yes, and I don't think they mean
playgrounds no no.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And I think that it's like there are rules, but
they're weird rules.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Right, And I think part of this also, I agreed
completely on the tadwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
robot overlords are going to take over that we're all
diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(07:15):
right now.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Oh so true. And that's the thing is that Mormon
wives slash Mormon women are mothers, but they get to
be sexy, and we'd all like to still be a
bit sexy. But this vision of motherhood that we've been
left with is kind of like your asexual, your drab,
and so there is something that feels almost aspirational, being like,
(07:38):
look at their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty
and they're great mums.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
It's prairie addressment. Make it sexy. It makes total sense
to me. Now, are grandparents underperforming? It's time for a
performance review. A recent article in The Atlantic unpacks a
sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are not chipping in
enough to help with their families. But then it argues
that contrary to that perception, grandparents are doing a lot.
(08:03):
They're doing more than ever. In fact, we're in the
era of something called peak grandparenting. Let me outline this
argument because I'm very curious to see whether you agree, jess.
It argues that parents struggle has become grandparents struggle because
grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians or the playmates that
they used to be, but their co parents. And a
sociologist quoted in the article says that the grandparents fall
(08:24):
into three categories. You're ready for them. Yes, there are
those who look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids.
Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Second category those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I do, and we'll get to them. Okay, good, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And a third category, which I really that's what I
want to talk about today, is grandparents who want to
be involved, but they also want to set boundaries. Some
strategies that these grandparents try. They commit only to doing
fun things with the kids. That means no dentist visits,
no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. They semi regularly
ignore their adult child's cause, and they help out only
(09:05):
on certain days. And they do this because they're tied.
It's only very recently that we've developed this idea that
grandparents should be always available, and oh yeah, looking back
on my childhood in the nineties, I realized that was true.
It's a very recent phenomenon. It's basically happened for reasons
you might expect. A lot more people are working outside
the home now, parenting itself has intensified, and people are
(09:28):
living longer. So Jesse, what do you make of this
rise of grandparenting as a full time job? And what
do you say to these grandparents who say, I love
to be around my grandchildren, but I also need my
me time.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club Sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind of smushed between these three generations.
(10:05):
And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are
we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work, to give up
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(10:26):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(10:48):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is a choice, right, because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says,
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days,
(11:11):
and you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culture we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused to an extent.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Well. This article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience, I think for all parties, and I think
(11:57):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those things in part because my parents
have had to make trade offs. I don't want to
speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(12:19):
once a year trips. But they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(12:40):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I call them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter, because it's not fair to use them as
(13:03):
just sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while
my kids are asleep. I want them to be able
to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun, not to developing in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(13:23):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class, as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects, and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(13:44):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work,
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grandparents in Australia help out with childcare.
But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy
and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with
(14:13):
not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease online and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yet when I throw this back at my parents, this
is helping with your cognition exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I'm giving you ten x three years. I've given you purpose.
But on the other hand, I was speaking to a
family friend recently who said that she moved cities so
that she couldn't be asked because she was starting to
feel so trapped by the expectations. And I think she
was in a bind because you off for child one
(14:47):
a certain level of care, so you go, I'll look
after them a day a week, but then their second
child comes, maybe their third child comes, But then what
if they got siblings and then you've got seven and
you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week with children, yep,
and I don't have the retirement that I wanted. I
don't have any of the freedom. And then I think
it also puts adult children who are adult parents in
(15:08):
a situation of going Maybe they feel entitled to that privilege.
Like I know, I'm not sure what your experience is,
but when I speak to friends about I'm almost self
conscious about how much help I get because I know
that it is such a privilege and not everyone is
afforded it. Either they have lost their parents, and this
is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss because
(15:29):
they know their parents would have loved to their parents
can't due to disability, DUDI, mobility issues, or their parents
don't want to and that stinks.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who, by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You
know they're never going to say no, you know they're
always going to express delight about being asked. But do
(16:00):
you have to therefore second guess how much you're asking
them to do?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yes, and the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me. So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(16:38):
relationship with her two grandmothers is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, Oh my god,
they love each other so so much, but you're also
like you need a break.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got to supervise
their homework, I've got to provide them with educational activities,
and all of them were taken aback by how intensified
(17:09):
grandparenting has become.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different. If it's paid, I think it's different,
if it's someone who's babysit different, whatever.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you wan
want to.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
What you want, and there's a really clear exchange going on.
But when it is family, and you also know that
they raise their own kids like they do, have a
good cv, you just go, is your rules? Like I
called Mum the other day and it was ten am
and Luna had a bickie in each hand in this
movie and I just went.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Wait, no, it was.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what grandma's teaching.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting Biki's But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision that do your homework. There was never that.
(18:12):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was and I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know care.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I am so glad you raised this, because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old and then get smart always gets
(18:41):
stuck in the afternoon mash do you ever have mash
on them? Burjoe's catchphrase with the other one. And I
loved old people loved them, and I'd eat my cubes
of cheese and then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't
providing me with any educational resources now. She wasn't even
saying you should really do your piano practice. That fell
to my mother. And yet I think now I do
(19:03):
have this sort of expectation that my parents are going to,
for instance, tell my son to do his piano practice
and why did that happen?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that, we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I noticed it with my mom. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and we'll be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching Luna? Well, like, I'm
so intense in that situation, But I go, you raised
two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of it somehow,
(19:32):
and I think she'll be fine. There was an article
published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled. It
was so beautifully written and so rich with insights and
detail about one of the most difficult things a parent
could ever go through. And it's funny. I often actively
avoid this content, but this was going around. My sister
sent it to me and told me I had to
(19:53):
read it, and once I started, I couldn't put it down.
It was stunning. The story was written by Archie Bland
and it's called The Boy Who Came Back, The Near
Death and Changed Life of my son Max, and it
tells the story of how when Archie's son Max was
seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep. It
was described as an interrupted sid's situation is what they
(20:16):
think happened. They had a night nanny at the time,
her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran
into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against
the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max
lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too
how this will impact him going forward. They know he
has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function
(20:40):
amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also
read this article. What do you think it was that
resonated with people so much and made it so deeply
kind of affecting.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about is the social impacts and
effects of having a sick child, because it's not the
same as arching his family. Every situation is of course different,
but having had a child in hospital for an extended period,
(21:15):
there were parts which really resonated with me. What I
found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because
you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital,
everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there
were meal trains. People were constantly checking in with me.
It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no
one knows what to say. And the fact is that
(21:38):
nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this. And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(22:03):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece, basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm gonna hug my own children tighter tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I hate that. I hate that. I suppose there's a
truth in that that whenever we consume things about parenting
or kids. We're always seeing our own It's empathy, but
it also almost dehumanizes his own son. And I found
he had a few things that people said to him,
like comparing going, oh, well, you know, my son was
(22:46):
really slow to sit.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently. And again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same situation as
the one depicted in the article. But the power of
this piece is that some of the things Archie describes
so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen
(23:13):
words around them before. It's interesting what you say that
there's people rally, but your focus is so singular, and
I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping,
you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and
even being in that environment is hell on earth. Like
to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful,
(23:35):
And so to have him describe it. He describes the
orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and
still people understand this is around a hospital, this is
like serious shit. But then you go into the quote
unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like,
you have no idea.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
How can you go?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for that
entire year, I was very aware of the fact that
I was pushing my friends away because anytime they tried
to reach out, I was filled with anger and resentment
that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't understand
what I'd gone through. My life was so much harder
than theirs, and I was just furious at them. And
(24:17):
he pulls out a few things that people said that
really bother him. So, for instance, one that really got
to me was that he said, don't tell me that
this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be for
you to have your kid in the hospital. And that
got me because that's something that I've said to people.
I would say in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(24:38):
But he says, it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(25:01):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids at are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(25:23):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I love that. And I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary
being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic,
just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want
the good news. That's why they're checking in because they
want the good news, and it's like it's not here,
(25:48):
and when it's when there's ongoing struggles. I think, yeah,
people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what
to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go,
here's what you do say.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things, because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, like all this test came back, and
they don't really know what's going on, and a lot
of the time they didn't know what's going on, and
so it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I
(26:19):
would find myself sending these group emails and asking people
just to read, but not right back, because then I
have the labor of having to respond to them. It
took me a long time to get over the anger
that I felt, a lot longer than it took for
my child to get better. And I just really appreciate
how he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back,
(26:42):
he could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and a tech
(27:05):
entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood of the
West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door
to their four bedroom apartment just to turn it into
a retreat for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know
if they've heard of making a fort with blanks and
dining room chairs, but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment
(27:25):
works too.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
When I was a kid, I made that fort and
I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle,
and I'll tell you there was holes in the bottom
of those chairs. Mom still remembers it.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I live in a two bedroom apartment. That's my two
young children's retreat. Anyway. Sitting aside the extravagance of it all,
what is making people incensed, and I guess by people,
I mean me, is that there are no colors in
this retreat. At the request of the color of verse clients.
The designers embraced monastic restraint. The Raw Street Journal rights
(27:55):
it's very muted. The interior designer is quoted as saying,
so let me paint you a picture, Jesse, because this
is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, a custom mural chairs
from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, or as the
designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope, bone and ash.
Why is everything to do with kids suddenly looking like
(28:16):
a Skims catalog.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense. It
gets such a bad rap. And I bought like linen
for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went, that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over
(28:39):
stimulating in my house, despite my love of for the neutrals.
I've got a red Elmo, I've got a blue bluey.
They yell in the middle of the night sometimes for
no reason because their batteries go off. There is plato,
there are crayons there, and then you know, if the
TV goes on, don't even talk to me about the
colors that come up. We've got the wiggles like there
(28:59):
is so much color. It is an assault on the senses.
Raising kids is an assault on the senses. It is
very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that I get
given on on social media sometimes, and I love when
they walk in and it's also neat, and.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies, and I think, oh,
you never, you never do. Then it's just and the
like washing of the onesies and the putting them back in.
But the neutral I mean, I will also say that
(29:51):
it's a real benefit for hand me downs, like because
we have a lot of beige. I have friends who've
had boys, girls whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
True, that's gender neutral.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Very ginger neutral, which is great. And if you don't
know the sex with baby, beige is also really good
to throw it in. I mean, look, I'm not too
essentialist about gender. I think girls can wear blue and
boys can wear pink. But some people, Yeah, that's why
we go very yellow during that period. I think the beige.
I've seen an attack on beige, and I just think
I think we can allow it and embrace more of
(30:21):
the beige.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit mal a light pool.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I think you just smudge it in. It does look
like it's tonal. It's actually tonal.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood,
seamen or urine. God, I hope it's urine.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
We should say your husband is a doctor.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Sorry, yeah, relevant.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
He deals with bodily fluids for a living Amelia. It
is time for our recommendations of the week. And look,
the rule for this is that it's recommendations that might
apply to parents parenting adjacent. That is the rule. What
is your recommendation?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
It is a book. It is called INTIMATESO. It is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may have heard of her. No, she's in fact probably
the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book. I started it and I put it down.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
No, I get it, I get it. I'm here to
sell you on it. It's not a new book. It
came out last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah,
I was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy
her last book. I just sort of felt like I
understood the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and
out of love, did not need to.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Read that the love awkward Irish people.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But this was like, it's just too much. You know.
This is like her third or fourth book, and I
get it. But then I just picked it up at
the library and needed something to read. And I think
it's my favorite of her books. And it's absolutely the
best book I've read all year. And I want to
say what I think people miss? They miss the point
to me, I think that this is a book about
(32:06):
two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, and I
love that because I have a brother and I'm always
reading books about relationships between sisters. And I think that's
because novels these days are read and written by women,
so naturally I think we're going to gravitate towards stories
about women. But this really made me think about and
(32:28):
reflect on my relationship with my brother, and it helped
me to understand it a little bit more. I loved
that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt to live
inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Well. To be honest, I have no idea if she
did it well or not, because I'm not a man,
But to me it was just really compelling. Whether or
not it was accurate or not, I will have to
leave that to the men. But it did give me
a sense that I understood my brother better and my
relationship with him a little better. So basically, about Peter
and Ivan Kuebec. They are brothers who live in Dublin.
(33:09):
Their fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight of feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a Tony box.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Have you heard of those? Yes, yes, I have one,
and I need to dig it up. Remind me why
it's good.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called. And we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig and you
put it on top and it either sings songs or
tells stories or whatever. And the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens. It's really interactive and
(34:04):
they love it, and so it's a great way for
them to feel really entertained by purple Pig without looking
at a screen. And as we know, that is parenting
in twenty twenty five. Just finding weazelways around screens.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Is Luna's favorite Pepper. No.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Her favorite is the dog because it round and round.
There's some song that she loves doing because she does
the dances to it, but we have to do it
every night. There's one that does lullabies, so we put
that on before bed. And full disclosure, this was a gift,
so I didn't buy this myself, and then I looked
up how much it was, and that's why I was
a little bit self conscious about my recommendation because they
cost I think it's about one hundred and eighty nine
(34:39):
dollars for a box, and the tonys are twenty nine
dollars each, so I understand that that's a lot. And
I always get funny when like toys are recommended that
are really expensive and it feels like they would make
parenting easier, Like I just don't love that. I also think,
from what I've heard, they last for years and years.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
We've had us for years.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in
a different way than it appears to a two year old.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kid's piciaters. I know we're
not meant to use that term, but are they pickiters.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Not really to be honest.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But people who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the
ones that are like my child.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Oh, let me tell you.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
They grab the food and it's like, my child eats
four foods. Let's just say that. The list in my
phone of foods my Childie's the God send for us
have been these things called oat bars, and this would
work for kids. That sounds fibrous, yes, yes, fibrous and
has nutrients. And I'm just like, if she has one
of those, at least she had something. It's like a
(35:41):
really good music. But I would eat one. And so
it's oats. You put in bananas. The more ripe they are,
the better, and then you can literally throw in like
carrots or dates or prunes or one time I throw
on some beech truths and then you check at the
oven and they last. I make them every week and
you can freeze them and whatever, and Luna lives off them,
and every time she eats them, I feel like a
good because I know it has things in it that
(36:02):
is good. There is a link in the show notes.
It's I do not cook. There are about two things
I can cook, and this is one of them. And
it has saved my life over the last year.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
And do you know what else is great about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. She doesn't matter. Beige,
loaumbe brilliant. It's fine. That is all we have time
for on parenting out Loud today. Bye h.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mumma mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this
podcast on the Gatagoul people of the Eur Nation. We
pay our respects to their elders past and present, and
extend that respect to all Aboriginal and torres strained Islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello. I'm Stacy Hicks. I'm the editor of Mamma Mia
and I'm also the host of our new parenting podcast,
Parenting out Loud. And this summer, we're curating your listening
with a healthy dose of culture savvy conversations that parents
actually want. This holiday season, we're bringing you unmissible episodes
right here into your podcast playlist. It's your summer listening sorted.
And if you're looking for more to listen to, every
(01:03):
Muma Mia podcast is curating some are listening right across
the network, from pop culture to beauty to powerful interviews.
There's something for everyone. There's a link in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Hello and welcome to Parents out Loud. I am Jesse
Stevens and I am joined by Amelia Lester. We are
embarking on a mini series all about what's happening this
week through the lens of being a parent. And to
be clear, we are not going to be talking about
wheatbix in our hair or vomit on our shirts. This
is not your mother's group. It's a series that we
(01:39):
hope will make your world feel just a little bit bigger.
In short, if parents are thinking about it, we are
talking about it. Welcome Amelia Lester. How old are your
kids now?
Speaker 4 (01:51):
My kids are five and seven. They're both in school,
which has given me an unexpected sense of order and
serenity because I know where they'll be most days and
I don't have to think about it anymore.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
And it's not all the day care fes.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
No, it's very cost efficient. I moved back to Australia
from the US, where I've spent the last twenty years
on and off last year, and I guess I should
say that in my day job while my children are
at school, I am a journalist.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And I have a toddler as well as a niece
who I claim as own. And you may know my
voice from mummy are out loud or I also hosted
The Baby Bubble recently with my twin sister Claire and
Hello Bump, which is all about pregnancy I'm on Mummy
Out Loud thirty three times a week, so I'm sure
you know me well. On today's show, the grandparents are
(02:38):
not okay. In fact, they're reaching their limit. Since when
did grandparenting become a full time job? Plus the boy
who came back, the searingly honest article that got us
thinking about what it means when your world as a
parent implodes and the reaction of the people around you.
But first, Mormon Wives, We've got Ballerina Farm, We've got
(03:00):
this secret lives of Mormon wives, We've got tadwife culture.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
People keep grabbing my arm and telling me I have
to watch this, And as someone who loves selling Sunset,
but that's kind of the extent of my reality TV immersion,
I need you to explain why it's suddenly the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I have looked at what it is about this moment
that has made Mormon culture so prominent, right because there
was an article in the Washington Post end of last
year which was all about how twenty twenty four was
the year of Mormon women specifically, and this is what
the article said that Mormonism, and to be clear, that's
the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ in the
(03:39):
Latter day Saints, and it emphasizes a Christian view of
God and Jesus while incorporating sort of unique doctrines and practices.
So as someone who grew up Catholic, recognize some things,
don't recognize a lot. But it pairs very well with
social media and capitalism.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
But isn't it like all about not drinking coffee or
alcohol and wearing odd undergarments.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yes, well, I think that that's what's interesting is the
way in which it is engaging with the present moment,
right because part of Mormonism is about the performance of purity.
It's about performance, which obviously lends itself to social media.
It is about perfectionism, which you'll see in like a
Ballerina farm representation where it's all the matching clothes of
(04:24):
the kids and the beautiful hair and the beautiful home,
and there's something quite alluring about that.
Speaker 4 (04:29):
So Ballerina Farmer's Mormon.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yes, And it's the prairie dress as well, which is
there's something that feels quite nostalgic about it. Because in
the US, probably even more than here, but in Australia too,
parents are kind of broken. So the idea that you
live in this stunning farmhouse with all the kids you
could ever want, and you barely need to leave the house. Yes,
(04:53):
really works.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
I'm in.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
And the other thing is that Mormon women traditionally are
not meant to work outside the home. Now social media
has given them a loophole which means that they can work.
They can actually make a heap of money and never
walk out their front door. So they're doing the cooking
and the sewing and all of that quite aspirational stuff
and wear all. Consuming it and making money is part
(05:19):
of Mormonism in or way. It's not part of Catholicism.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It's like God blessed you if you walk around with
something very fancy.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
Because it's very intertwined with it's a very American religion.
It was found in the United States, I believe in
upstate New York. I have seen the Book of Mormon. Yes,
so I'm bringing them back knowledge to this and it
makes sense that therefore it would be more comfortable with capitalism.
So is this show about them sort of performing their
purity on social media because that sounds a bit boring.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Well, I think that it's about the hypocrisy, and I
suppose this is what makes it an interesting, rich text
on social is that we know what the doctrine says,
and we know what the Bible says, and then you've
got people putting botox in their face, or drinking lots
of soft drink, or doing.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Lots of soft my god, this is crazy talk, Jesse.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Or doing certain drugs. It's like the loopholes that they
find while also looking stunning. And also I read this
line in The Atlantic recently that said America loves mothers
more than it loves women, and I thought, there's something
about these Mormon mothers that we find particularly aspirational. If
you're in that, then you get a lot more license
(06:33):
to sort of muck around with the other stuff. But
it does make it addictive.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I also read that there's a whole subplot of something
called soft swinging Yes, and I don't think they mean
playgrounds no no.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And I think that it's like there are rules, but
they're weird rules.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
Right, And I think part of this also, I agreed
completely on the tadwife element, and it so speaks to
the anxieties of our times and not knowing whether the
robot overlords are going to take over that we're all
diving deep on people who are perfecting their bread recipes.
But the soft swinging, I think is also part of
an exploration of polyamory that is happening amongst elder millennials
(07:15):
right now.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Oh so true. And that's the thing is that Mormon
wives slash Mormon women are mothers, but they get to
be sexy, and we'd all like to still be a
bit sexy. But this vision of motherhood that we've been
left with is kind of like your asexual, your drab,
and so there is something that feels almost aspirational, being like,
(07:38):
look at their incredible sex lives. Yes, and they're pretty
and they're great mums.
Speaker 4 (07:42):
It's prairie addressment. Make it sexy. It makes total sense
to me. Now, are grandparents underperforming? It's time for a
performance review. A recent article in The Atlantic unpacks a
sentiment amongst millennials that their parents are not chipping in
enough to help with their families. But then it argues
that contrary to that perception, grandparents are doing a lot.
(08:03):
They're doing more than ever. In fact, we're in the
era of something called peak grandparenting. Let me outline this
argument because I'm very curious to see whether you agree, jess.
It argues that parents struggle has become grandparents struggle because
grandparents now aren't just the disciplinarians or the playmates that
they used to be, but their co parents. And a
sociologist quoted in the article says that the grandparents fall
(08:24):
into three categories. You're ready for them. Yes, there are
those who look for every opportunity to look after their grandkids.
Those people are called Anne Stevens.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Yes, exactly right. That is my mother to a TEA.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Second category those who don't want to do any care
of grandkids. I don't actually know many grandparents who fit
this description.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
I do, and we'll get to them. Okay, good, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
And a third category, which I really that's what I
want to talk about today, is grandparents who want to
be involved, but they also want to set boundaries. Some
strategies that these grandparents try. They commit only to doing
fun things with the kids. That means no dentist visits,
no math tutoring, just the fun stuff. They semi regularly
ignore their adult child's cause, and they help out only
(09:05):
on certain days. And they do this because they're tied.
It's only very recently that we've developed this idea that
grandparents should be always available, and oh yeah, looking back
on my childhood in the nineties, I realized that was true.
It's a very recent phenomenon. It's basically happened for reasons
you might expect. A lot more people are working outside
the home now, parenting itself has intensified, and people are
(09:28):
living longer. So Jesse, what do you make of this
rise of grandparenting as a full time job? And what
do you say to these grandparents who say, I love
to be around my grandchildren, but I also need my
me time.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I worry about the ones who don't have the guts
to say that, because I think that you can easily
be exploited and then feel very exploited. But we talk
about the Sandwich generation, right, the generation that has elderly
parents who might require care and kids. But now there's
like a club Sandwich generation, which is that those kids
have grandkids, so they're kind of smushed between these three generations.
(10:05):
And let's be honest who we're talking about here. Are
we talking about grandparents or are we talking about grandmothers?
Because the economy relies in order for mothers to go
back to work, they require their mothers or their in
laws to give up some paid work, to give up
whether it's exercise, whether it's socializing, all of those things
(10:26):
which are like sacrifices after having done that for a
period of their lives, which is a big ask. So
I think that the economy and I remember, I think
it was last year JD. Vance was being asked about
the situation in the US and he said, maybe grandparents
could step up more. So you want them to fill
holes in the economy or the fact that childcare is
(10:48):
prohibitively expensive, or that every family requires two parents to
be working pretty close to full time. You're then relying
on the unpaid work of this generation. I think it's
about how much of it is a choice, right, because
in some situations, if you've got a mum who says,
we can't pay the bills unless I go back five days,
(11:11):
and you have someone in their seventies doing five days
a week like that is an enormous ask. And I
don't think culture we've decided yet whether child rearing is
work or not. Like I think that our conception of
work is really like confused to an extent.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
That's so true.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
What's your relationship like with your parents and help.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Well. This article really opened my mind because I moved
from the US back to Australia last year in part
because I wanted to spend more time with my parents,
and I wanted my children to spend more time with
my parents. And that has been such a rich and
rewarding experience, I think for all parties, and I think
(11:57):
for all parties, it has also been a challenging experience.
It's been both those things in part because my parents
have had to make trade offs. I don't want to
speak for them, but I can see and observe that, yes,
they have gained the company and the friendship with their
grandchildren that is so special, which can't be nurtured in
(12:19):
once a year trips. But they've also had to give
some things up. So the first and biggest thing they've
had to give up is they're retired. They used to
enjoy traveling. They kind of feel like they can't travel
like they used to now because I need them because
both my partner and I work full time, and although
both my children are in school, there's just so many
(12:40):
cracks that you have to paper over or stand over.
And so, for instance, anytime one of my kids is sick,
I call them, and I hate doing that because when
it comes to planned social events, I never call them.
I have a little bit of a rule, which is
that if I'm doing something fun, I have to get
a babysitter, because it's not fair to use them as
(13:03):
just sort of unpaid labor sitting around my place while
my kids are asleep. I want them to be able
to do fun things with them and to develop their relationship,
and doing bed time not fun, not to developing in
a relationship. So I get babysitters for that. But when
they're sick and have to come home from school, I
do have to call them because I've got to make
(13:23):
money and do my job. So I'm aware that that
means that, for instance, my mom might want to go
to her exercise class, as you mentioned, or my dad
might want to do his projects, and then they have
to drop them to pick up the kids from school. Yeah,
and that sense of freedom that is being sacrificed, I
think is real. And I really loved that this piece
(13:44):
articulated that in a non judgmental way, because I think
this is a conversation we're only just beginning to have.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
And just because you love someone doesn't mean it's not work,
And there was some really good points. I think it
was in this article. It might have been another one
that was more Australian focused, and it was saying that
one in three grandparents in Australia help out with childcare.
But there's been studies done about grandparents and life expectancy
and how it really helps with cognition, really helps with
(14:13):
not feeling lonely, and how those connections can give you know,
some people are totally new lease online and.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
Yet when I throw this back at my parents, this
is helping with your cognition exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
I'm giving you ten x three years. I've given you purpose.
But on the other hand, I was speaking to a
family friend recently who said that she moved cities so
that she couldn't be asked because she was starting to
feel so trapped by the expectations. And I think she
was in a bind because you off for child one
(14:47):
a certain level of care, so you go, I'll look
after them a day a week, but then their second
child comes, maybe their third child comes, But then what
if they got siblings and then you've got seven and
you're like, I'm doing fourteen days a week with children, yep,
and I don't have the retirement that I wanted. I
don't have any of the freedom. And then I think
it also puts adult children who are adult parents in
(15:08):
a situation of going Maybe they feel entitled to that privilege.
Like I know, I'm not sure what your experience is,
but when I speak to friends about I'm almost self
conscious about how much help I get because I know
that it is such a privilege and not everyone is
afforded it. Either they have lost their parents, and this
is a particularly difficult time to feel that loss because
(15:29):
they know their parents would have loved to their parents
can't due to disability, DUDI, mobility issues, or their parents
don't want to and that stinks.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Yeah, it must be hard. I'm curious for you because
you do have two grandmothers who, by all accounts pretty
enthusiastic about the task. Yeah, but that must put a
bit of pressure on you to just be a little
aware of how much you're asking them to do. You
know they're never going to say no, you know they're
always going to express delight about being asked. But do
(16:00):
you have to therefore second guess how much you're asking
them to do?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yes, and the big one has been my twin sister
had a baby five months after me. So we now
constantly check in and go how many days.
Speaker 4 (16:13):
I've got to coordinate.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
We've got to coordinate because Mom's not gonna tell us,
and so I got no, she's not doing five days
between us. She'll do one day with me and maybe
she'll do one or two days with you. But I
know her exercise class is on a fast and we
are not asking her. We're very careful about that because
we want to protect her because if we ask, she
will say yes. And that relationship, like watching my daughter's
(16:38):
relationship with her two grandmothers is one of the greatest
jows of my life. Like it is, Oh my god,
they love each other so so much, but you're also
like you need a break.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
Yeah, they need rest. One thing I thought was really
interesting is that there was a study done in twenty
twenty one of British grandmothers and apparently all these British
grandmothers were like, why do I have to supervise these
children on everything? They were like, I've got to supervise
their homework, I've got to provide them with educational activities,
and all of them were taken aback by how intensified
(17:09):
grandparenting has become.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I've had to go. My sister and I have talked
about this. When they are in the care of grandparents.
I think it's different. If it's paid, I think it's different,
if it's someone who's babysit different, whatever.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
Then you can just tell them exactly what you wan
want to.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
What you want, and there's a really clear exchange going on.
But when it is family, and you also know that
they raise their own kids like they do, have a
good cv, you just go, is your rules? Like I
called Mum the other day and it was ten am
and Luna had a bickie in each hand in this
movie and I just went.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Wait, no, it was.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Between her eggs. It was the gross motor skills. That's
what grandma's teaching.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Are you truly able to surrender control like that?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
I am in that situation. There are moments where it's
hard because I go, when she's with me, she's not
getting Biki's But I go, it's my rules when I'm
looking after her and the grandparents, and maybe it's my
Nan lived with me growing up, and interestingly, I didn't
feel like she was a parent in that she didn't
that supervision that do your homework. There was never that.
(18:12):
But she was just this presence, a companion I thought
Nan was and I laughed with Mum sometimes I go,
Luna thinks you're just a friend who comes over. She
doesn't know care.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I am so glad you raised this, because I think
this is the other thing that has changed over the generations.
I also had my grandmother living with us for much
of the time, and she and I were really good friends.
And she did not supervise my homework. She cut up
cubes of cheese for me to watch the Barcelona Olympics. Yes,
I am that old and then get smart always gets
(18:41):
stuck in the afternoon mash do you ever have mash
on them? Burjoe's catchphrase with the other one. And I
loved old people loved them, and I'd eat my cubes
of cheese and then she make me cupcakes. She wasn't
providing me with any educational resources now. She wasn't even
saying you should really do your piano practice. That fell
to my mother. And yet I think now I do
(19:03):
have this sort of expectation that my parents are going to,
for instance, tell my son to do his piano practice
and why did that happen?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, that's so true. I think that we became more
intensive and with that, we're projecting it because we're more anxious.
But I noticed it with my mom. Sometimes my daughter
will be doing something and Mum will walk me out
the front door and we'll be standing on the thing
and I'm like, mate, who's watching Luna? Well, like, I'm
so intense in that situation, But I go, you raised
two sets of twins. Yeah, we got out of it somehow,
(19:32):
and I think she'll be fine. There was an article
published in The Guardian last month that I inhaled. It
was so beautifully written and so rich with insights and
detail about one of the most difficult things a parent
could ever go through. And it's funny. I often actively
avoid this content, but this was going around. My sister
sent it to me and told me I had to
(19:53):
read it, and once I started, I couldn't put it down.
It was stunning. The story was written by Archie Bland
and it's called The Boy Who Came Back, The Near
Death and Changed Life of my son Max, and it
tells the story of how when Archie's son Max was
seven weeks old, he stopped breathing in his sleep. It
was described as an interrupted sid's situation is what they
(20:16):
think happened. They had a night nanny at the time,
her name is Gina, who realized he'd gone quiet, ran
into his parents and they immediately called an ambulance. Against
the odds, he was revived and as a result, Max
lives with a disability. It's unclear he's not yet too
how this will impact him going forward. They know he
has cerebral palsy, which impacts speech and gross motor function
(20:40):
amelia separately. Without us even discussing it, you had also
read this article. What do you think it was that
resonated with people so much and made it so deeply
kind of affecting.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
There are so many things in this piece that we
could talk about for hours. One aspect of it that
I want to talk about is the social impacts and
effects of having a sick child, because it's not the
same as arching his family. Every situation is of course different,
but having had a child in hospital for an extended period,
(21:15):
there were parts which really resonated with me. What I
found interesting about it was how isolating it was, because
you'd think that when you have a child in the hospital,
everyone rallies around, and yes they did. You know, there
were meal trains. People were constantly checking in with me.
It's not that people didn't care, but it's that no
one knows what to say. And the fact is that
(21:38):
nothing anyone says is the right thing, and.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
In fact, a misstep or a clumsy statement does so
much harm that I think that people get scared. And
that's what I found in this. And maybe I looked
at why I read it, and I think I've had
friends in that situation with sick kids, go through awful,
awful trauma of all different kinds, and you do the
gymnastics of trying to find the right thing to say.
(22:03):
And I was looking through this going I found it
really interesting what was the wrong thing to say? And
also he said so early on in the piece, basically,
I don't want to be the story that you look
at that then makes you really grateful for your own kids.
That's really irritating.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
Pull out the aphorisms, don't say things to him like, well,
I'm gonna hug my own children tighter tonight.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
I hate that. I hate that. I suppose there's a
truth in that that whenever we consume things about parenting
or kids. We're always seeing our own It's empathy, but
it also almost dehumanizes his own son. And I found
he had a few things that people said to him,
like comparing going, oh, well, you know, my son was
(22:46):
really slow to sit.
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Up, or like, my son's just forever throwing his porridge
around the room. Yeah, he's a mess too.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
As though it's the same when it absolutely isn't. But
I had someone close to me with a child in
hospital for a time recently. And again I'm not saying
that this is comparable or it's the same situation as
the one depicted in the article. But the power of
this piece is that some of the things Archie describes
so beautifully did feel really familiar, and I hadn't seen
(23:13):
words around them before. It's interesting what you say that
there's people rally, but your focus is so singular, and
I don't think there's anything like it. You are not sleeping,
you have no appetite. It is hell on earth, and
even being in that environment is hell on earth. Like
to be in an environment with other sick kids is awful,
(23:35):
And so to have him describe it. He describes the
orbits of like you walk out of the hospital and
still people understand this is around a hospital, this is
like serious shit. But then you go into the quote
unquote real world and there's just fury because it's like,
you have no idea.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
How can you go?
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
So basically this happened in twenty twenty, and for that
entire year, I was very aware of the fact that
I was pushing my friends away because anytime they tried
to reach out, I was filled with anger and resentment
that they didn't know what I'd gone through, couldn't understand
what I'd gone through. My life was so much harder
than theirs, and I was just furious at them. And
(24:17):
he pulls out a few things that people said that
really bother him. So, for instance, one that really got
to me was that he said, don't tell me that
this is scary. Oh, how scary this must be for
you to have your kid in the hospital. And that
got me because that's something that I've said to people.
I would say in hospital, is that must be scary,
because that's what I think is the true thing to say.
(24:38):
But he says, it's not scary. Scary is losing your
kid at the shopping mall. This is a whole other
existential level. And another thing that he doesn't want people
to say is to talk about how it makes them
grateful for their own lives and their own children, and
just let's talk about where we're at. So then he
mentioned some things that were helpful. One of them was
(25:01):
a friend of his pulled his son aside and put
him in front of the TV with all the other
kids at are social gathering. Didn't make a big fuss
about it, didn't check if that was okay for his
son to be there, just did this thing, this quiet
act of grace that enabled both the father to get
along with his socializing, but also for his son to
feel like a normal child amongst the other children. And
(25:23):
I thought that was such a beautiful, practical thing that
someone did for him.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I love that. And I think there's a sense when
someone's in hospital that the people around you really just
want it to be over. So saying that it's scary
being positive in a way that's actually not not realistic,
just makes a person feel really unseen. People just want
the good news. That's why they're checking in because they
want the good news, and it's like it's not here,
(25:48):
and when it's when there's ongoing struggles. I think, yeah,
people lean on cliches, probably because I don't know what
to say, but I think it's helpful to kind of go,
here's what you do say.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
I didn't want people texting me for precisely that reason,
saying how are things, because it's exhausting to have to
update people with uncertain news. A lot of stuff that
happens in hospitals is uncertain, Like that's why I realized
through this process, like all this test came back, and
they don't really know what's going on, and a lot
of the time they didn't know what's going on, and
so it's hard to give people definitive updates. So I
(26:19):
would find myself sending these group emails and asking people
just to read, but not right back, because then I
have the labor of having to respond to them. It
took me a long time to get over the anger
that I felt, a lot longer than it took for
my child to get better. And I just really appreciate
how he went there with this piece. He didn't hold back,
(26:42):
he could see that people were trying to help. But
it's also important that people understand how hard it is
to accept and receive that help at a time like this.
If you've ever wondered how a secession character might design
a playroom, the Wall Street Journal has you covered. A
recent Wall Street Journal article featured a playroom that's getting
me angry. It's a venture capitalist mother and a tech
(27:05):
entrepreneur father in the New York City neighborhood of the
West Village. They purchased a two bedroom apartment next door
to their four bedroom apartment just to turn it into
a retreat for their young daughters. Okay, I don't know
if they've heard of making a fort with blanks and
dining room chairs, but anyway, buying a two bedroom apartment
(27:25):
works too.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
When I was a kid, I made that fort and
I put the blankets out, and then I lit a candle,
and I'll tell you there was holes in the bottom
of those chairs. Mom still remembers it.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I live in a two bedroom apartment. That's my two
young children's retreat. Anyway. Sitting aside the extravagance of it all,
what is making people incensed, and I guess by people,
I mean me, is that there are no colors in
this retreat. At the request of the color of verse clients.
The designers embraced monastic restraint. The Raw Street Journal rights
(27:55):
it's very muted. The interior designer is quoted as saying,
so let me paint you a picture, Jesse, because this
is a podcast, hand tufted rugs, a custom mural chairs
from Copenhagen, and fifty shades of beige, or as the
designers call it, oatmeal, flax, cream, stone, rope, bone and ash.
Why is everything to do with kids suddenly looking like
(28:16):
a Skims catalog.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I love beige. I will launch a passionate defense. It
gets such a bad rap. And I bought like linen
for my bed recently and it was oatmeal with flax.
It was those shades that I went, that's perfect. And
here's the reason everything to do with children is over
(28:39):
stimulating in my house, despite my love of for the neutrals.
I've got a red Elmo, I've got a blue bluey.
They yell in the middle of the night sometimes for
no reason because their batteries go off. There is plato,
there are crayons there, and then you know, if the
TV goes on, don't even talk to me about the
colors that come up. We've got the wiggles like there
(28:59):
is so much color. It is an assault on the senses.
Raising kids is an assault on the senses. It is
very overstimulating, quite like a nursery tour that I get
given on on social media sometimes, and I love when
they walk in and it's also neat, and.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
They've always got these special custom designed cubes. Yes, yes,
And I tried doing that in my house and I
made signs with my apartment and I made signs for
them for the kids, like this is my son's toys,
this is my daughter's toys. Do you know how long
it took for that whole taxonomy to be completely tossed aside.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
That's what's so funny is that the naivety of a
nursery is always like they barely go in there for
the first first little bit, and then the way that
people line up all the nappies, and I think, oh,
you never, you never do. Then it's just and the
like washing of the onesies and the putting them back in.
But the neutral I mean, I will also say that
(29:51):
it's a real benefit for hand me downs, like because
we have a lot of beige. I have friends who've
had boys, girls whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
True, that's gender neutral.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
Very ginger neutral, which is great. And if you don't
know the sex with baby, beige is also really good
to throw it in. I mean, look, I'm not too
essentialist about gender. I think girls can wear blue and
boys can wear pink. But some people, Yeah, that's why
we go very yellow during that period. I think the beige.
I've seen an attack on beige, and I just think
I think we can allow it and embrace more of
(30:21):
the beige.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
You know, you are convincing me here. And another thing
about beige or oatmeal or flax or the cereals is
that you can throw things on them and it's sort
of just all blends into the sort of beige camouflage
of it all. Vomit mal a light pool.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
I think you just smudge it in. It does look
like it's tonal. It's actually tonal.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
As my husband is fond of saying it's either blood,
seamen or urine. God, I hope it's urine.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
We should say your husband is a doctor.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Sorry, yeah, relevant.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
He deals with bodily fluids for a living Amelia. It
is time for our recommendations of the week. And look,
the rule for this is that it's recommendations that might
apply to parents parenting adjacent. That is the rule. What
is your recommendation?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
It is a book. It is called INTIMATESO. It is
by Sally Rooney. She's a really unknown niche writer. You
may have heard of her. No, she's in fact probably
the most famous writer of AH generation.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
I guess I have to say I have a confession
about this book. I started it and I put it down.
Speaker 4 (31:27):
No, I get it, I get it. I'm here to
sell you on it. It's not a new book. It
came out last year and it got very mixed reviews. Yeah,
I was not going to read it. I didn't enjoy
her last book. I just sort of felt like I
understood the stick of awkward Irish people falling in and
out of love, did not need to.
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Read that the love awkward Irish people.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
But this was like, it's just too much. You know.
This is like her third or fourth book, and I
get it. But then I just picked it up at
the library and needed something to read. And I think
it's my favorite of her books. And it's absolutely the
best book I've read all year. And I want to
say what I think people miss? They miss the point
to me, I think that this is a book about
(32:06):
two brothers. It's about the relationship between brothers, and I
love that because I have a brother and I'm always
reading books about relationships between sisters. And I think that's
because novels these days are read and written by women,
so naturally I think we're going to gravitate towards stories
about women. But this really made me think about and
(32:28):
reflect on my relationship with my brother, and it helped
me to understand it a little bit more. I loved
that Sally Rooney made such a valiant attempt to live
inside the minds of two men. This never happens.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
She did do that very very well, and the inner
world of the men came across as very authentic.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Well. To be honest, I have no idea if she
did it well or not, because I'm not a man,
But to me it was just really compelling. Whether or
not it was accurate or not, I will have to
leave that to the men. But it did give me
a sense that I understood my brother better and my
relationship with him a little better. So basically, about Peter
and Ivan Kuebec. They are brothers who live in Dublin.
(33:09):
Their fathers just died. They're both negotiating romantic relationships with women.
It is in fact about awkward Irish people. I need
to make that clear up front. But I loved getting
an insight of feeling like I got an insight into
how men think about women and how men think about
their siblings. And that's why I'm recommending it.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Maybe I should pick it back up. I have two recommendations.
My first recommendation is a Tony box.
Speaker 4 (33:35):
Have you heard of those? Yes, yes, I have one,
and I need to dig it up. Remind me why
it's good.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Okay, So the tony box is like a soft box thing,
and then you get Tony's what they're called. And we've
got like a gruffalo or a pepper pig and you
put it on top and it either sings songs or
tells stories or whatever. And the idea is the way
that a lot of people talk to me about it
was you get them off screens. It's really interactive and
(34:04):
they love it, and so it's a great way for
them to feel really entertained by purple Pig without looking
at a screen. And as we know, that is parenting
in twenty twenty five. Just finding weazelways around screens.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Is Luna's favorite Pepper. No.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
Her favorite is the dog because it round and round.
There's some song that she loves doing because she does
the dances to it, but we have to do it
every night. There's one that does lullabies, so we put
that on before bed. And full disclosure, this was a gift,
so I didn't buy this myself, and then I looked
up how much it was, and that's why I was
a little bit self conscious about my recommendation because they
cost I think it's about one hundred and eighty nine
(34:39):
dollars for a box, and the tonys are twenty nine
dollars each, so I understand that that's a lot. And
I always get funny when like toys are recommended that
are really expensive and it feels like they would make
parenting easier, Like I just don't love that. I also think,
from what I've heard, they last for years and years.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
We've had us for years.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Yes, and it appeals to a five year old in
a different way than it appears to a two year old.
I'm going to check another one out there, which is
a recipe Amelia I your kid's piciaters. I know we're
not meant to use that term, but are they pickiters.
Speaker 4 (35:11):
Not really to be honest.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
But people who hesitate, I'm like, they're fine. It's the
ones that are like my child.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Oh, let me tell you.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
They grab the food and it's like, my child eats
four foods. Let's just say that. The list in my
phone of foods my Childie's the God send for us
have been these things called oat bars, and this would
work for kids. That sounds fibrous, yes, yes, fibrous and
has nutrients. And I'm just like, if she has one
of those, at least she had something. It's like a
(35:41):
really good music. But I would eat one. And so
it's oats. You put in bananas. The more ripe they are,
the better, and then you can literally throw in like
carrots or dates or prunes or one time I throw
on some beech truths and then you check at the
oven and they last. I make them every week and
you can freeze them and whatever, and Luna lives off them,
and every time she eats them, I feel like a
good because I know it has things in it that
(36:02):
is good. There is a link in the show notes.
It's I do not cook. There are about two things
I can cook, and this is one of them. And
it has saved my life over the last year.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
And do you know what else is great about it?
It matches your preferred color scheme.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
It does because it's smushed into the lounge. She doesn't matter. Beige,
loaumbe brilliant. It's fine. That is all we have time
for on parenting out Loud today. Bye h.
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