Confessions of a Brothel Manager: What Really Happens Behind Closed Doors

This week I sat down with the fascinating Catherine DeNoire — manager of one of Europe’s largest legal brothels and a PhD researcher studying prostitution and policy. We talk about everything you’ve ever wanted to know about how legal sex work actually functions — from how the women are independent contractors, to the safety measures (like an 8-second panic-button rule!), to how European laws make the work safer and more empowering.

Catherine also shares the wildest client requests she’s ever seen (yes, there’s a polar bear involved 🐻), why American men are surprisingly the best clients, and how emotional intelligence—not looks—makes the top earners thrive.

If you’ve ever wondered what it’s really like behind the doors of a legal brothel, this episode will change how you see sex work forever.

Watch the uncut/uncensored versions with bonus Q&As exclusively on Patreon.https://www.patreon.com/c/hollyrandallunfiltered

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You were listening to a pleasure podcast. For more from
our sex podcast collective, visit pleasure Podcasts dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello everybody, Welcome back to Holly Randall Unfiltered. I have
a really special guest today. I've actually been following her
on Instagram for quite a while, and so when she
reached out to me and said that she was coming
out to LA, I just felt like this was a
conversation that was meant to be. She is somebody who
is truly redefining the conversation around sex work. She's the

(00:48):
manager of one of Europe's largest legal brothels, and she's
currently pursuing a PhD on prostitution and policy. She believes
sex work can be safe, dignified, and even empowering when
done voluntarily and within a legal framework. We'll talk about
what really goes on behind the doors of a European club,
why American men might actually be the best clients, and

(01:10):
the surprising way that sex work can change lives.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
Welcome Catherine de Noir. Thank you for having me. Yeah,
I know, thank you. I'm so excited to have you here.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
I just find you to be really fascinating and I
love that you're going out there and you're talking so
openly about what you do, because I always talk about
how there's such a mystery and you know, a veil
over sex work in general, and I, you know, come
from a many many years in the porn industry, but
you work on the other side of sex work in
a brothel. So like there's things that I don't really

(01:42):
know much about. So I'm excited to learn from you today. Now,
you started as a psychologist, so what led you to
brothel management?

Speaker 4 (01:49):
It was one big coincidence. So I decided to go
to psychology because like I always had discussion for like
talking with people, like being around people, and like I
like to think, like what is going on inside our heads.
So at some point I was like, Okay, maybe I'll
just try psychology. And it's like really hard to get in,

(02:09):
but like I managed to get in, and so I
started to study psychology, and then I found neuropsychology and
I did my internship in one of the biggest hospitals
in my country. And like I originally thought, like I'm
gonna do neuropsychology, like specifically studying dementias like il tell
My disease, Parkinson disease, and at some point, like I

(02:33):
found this article with a guy and he was a
manager of a brothel and it was called they call
me pimp, but I protect women. And I was like, ooh,
this is interesting, and like before that, like I knew
brothels existed, but like I didn't know anything about them.
So I was like, okay, cool, let's just read it,
and like he's actually not my colleagues, so that's funny.

(02:56):
So he spoke about the way like how they treat
this business as a regular business, like how they treat
women with respect, that actually the women they are not
their employees, but they are independent contractors, and that they
are actually their clients. And I was like, this dynamic
is something like I would never think of. And he

(03:16):
spoke about the role of sexuality society and I finished
the article and I was like that's it, Like this
is the work that I want to do for the
rest of my life.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
And it was like very random, So one article change
his mind in the direction of your life exactly.

Speaker 4 (03:31):
And I was like, oh, okay, so this is something
that I want to do. And then I managed to
find the company he works for and I got like
a little bit drunk and I decided to write them
an email. It's like they weren't searching for any like
new employees, but I was like, just please, like I
want to work with you. And like I was twenty two,

(03:53):
I didn't have like any experience with like sex work
or this industry or the management itself. So I was like,
just please give me a chance. I want to work
with you. And I think it was like the worst
motivational letter like ever. And yeah, by the time I
finished the letter, I was like pretty dronk, so I
just say and then I was like that's it, you know,

(04:15):
like I'll see. And then like a few days later,
they actually called me or hr she called me and
she was like, yeah, we read it and it was
like very original and I was like, oh shit, like
what I wrote that, Like I'm not quite sure.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, and then she.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Basically invited me for an interview and I went through
three rounds of the interviews and at the end like
I got the job. So yeah, and like since then,
it's been nine years and I'm still loving it. It's amazing.
I mean, I'm so glad it. I found this article
and it was like if you think about it, like
I couldn't like I could do anything else and like yeah,

(04:54):
I'm just there and it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
So what position did you apply for or did you
just write them say I'll do anything.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
No, I wanted to be the manager.

Speaker 2 (05:02):
Oh okay, you specifically applied to.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
You know, please give me this job. I mean, I
ready article. I think it's amazing. I'm willing to learn.
And it was the time when like so our company
we used to hire like the grown up managers like
coming from like hospitality or like nightlifelike bars, those kind
of stuff, and also like some sort of like corporate managers,

(05:28):
and like they were really good managers in like those companies,
but like if you manage people in a brothel, like
you can't manage them by the power. It's like the
sex workers. They are not our supportin its. We like
to like approach them as an equal because they are
they are independent contractors, so when they work with us,

(05:50):
they can like they decide about their prices about services,
they can always refuse the customer, like we never set
the schedule for them. So so it's different of the
management and I think like what really helps And those
people who were coming from like hospitality, like they knew
like different type of the management. So they were not

(06:12):
really good managers at brothel. And since I didn't have
like any concept of like what should I do as
a manager, like, they basically showed me everything, and like
over the years, I kind of developed this like very
unique managerial style, and like I believe, like I'm a
good manager at a brothel, but like I don't think

(06:33):
I would be a good manager like anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
There's a lot of parallels I can draw here, you know,
because as a director, you know, obviously directing people in
videos doing sex work, it is absolutely a job, like
you said, but you can't manage them like you would
like regular actors or any other job. There's a strange
nuance there because on one hand, it is a job,

(06:57):
it is a performance, but it's also sex. So there's
like the level of intimacy there that you have to respect,
and there's a level of vulnerability there that doesn't exist
in any other job. Really, I don't think, and you
have to understand that nuance, and not everybody does. Can
I ask you how many female managers had worked there
before you?

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Oh, like before me, I have no idea, but like
we have, so we have seven managers. We are like
top two of us, so it's me and my colleague
and then we have three girls and the rest are guys.
And it's actually kind of funny because like here in America,
like most of the managers, like they call themselves smartams,

(07:38):
they are girls, whereas like in Europe, like most of
the time, like the managers are guys. So with us,
it's like a little bit different, like we like to
have like more girls in a managerial team.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
But like, yeah, so what drew you?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I mean, you know, doing this pivotal change, you must
have obviously had certain feelings about like sex and sex
work before you made this decision, right, Like was there
a natural curiosity there? And this is what I.

Speaker 4 (08:09):
Was always like pretty open about like sex. I like
to try different things. I used to go to swingers
quite a lot because like in Europe it's fairly normal.
It's probably more normal than here, So.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
I would say, so I was like.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
Really open about like sex, and this place seemed like
sex positive place. I was like, yeah, it kind of
fits into like my own relationship to sex. And like obviously,
like if I would be like any like brutish type
of person, like probably I couldn't work there, but like

(08:44):
since I'm not, and like I respect that, Like everyone
can do whatever they want with their sexualities. Like they
can either sell it. They can either share it with
one person. They can either like decide like not to
do anything sexual at all, because like I believe that,
like we own our sexuality. So I guess I'm in

(09:07):
a good place.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, how did your family and friends react to this
career path?

Speaker 3 (09:12):
For people?

Speaker 2 (09:12):
Surprised?

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Yes, Like my friends, they they kind of knew about
this because like I was so thrilled about the article,
so like I told them, like I sent them the article,
I was like, you need to read this. And so
like my friends, they kind of expect this, but like
my family, they didn't. So they kind of thought that.
So most people in my family they either have PhDs

(09:35):
or I think my father his professor already. So like
I come from this family, and like everybody is slawyer
like economists, they do your research, and they kind of
thought that I will go into that path as well.
So when I started with the neuropsychology, they were like, good, okay, nice,
like this is what we kind of wanted you to do.

(09:58):
And then the brothel happened, and then I needed to
tell them. So like my father he just said and
listened and he was like, Okay, that sounds like a
really good place where you actually take care of the
women and like you really respect them. So he was cool.
But my mom she was not. I mean, she didn't

(10:18):
speak with me for some time, and she was like, oh,
so you're like you're going to be a pimp or what.
So like I needed to explain her everything, and like
eventually she was like, okay, yeah, like probably like you're
not some sort of like bad pimp, like you know,
beating girls or something. So yeah, but it took them

(10:39):
a while, Like especially my mother and I have a
brother and he's seven years younger than I am. So
for him, I'm like really cool sister, especially with the
socials and everything. Like for him, it's like, do you
know my sister?

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Does he send like his friends to your place?

Speaker 3 (10:55):
And big? I really know, I meant count I mean.

Speaker 4 (10:59):
He never he never tell me this, so like I
don't know, probably not.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
So walk me through a typical night at your club.
What can people expect when they visit a brottle.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
You basically, so we have stairs, you look up the stairs,
and there is a reception and our receptionist they will
first speak with you just to see like whether you
are drunk or like you're aggressive or something. So in
case like you are too drunk or you start to
behave like weirdly like, they will not let you in.

(11:30):
So first you need to go through a reception and
buy the entry ticket, which is wellid for twenty four
hours and it costs like twenty euros like dollars, and
then you're basically good to go. So there is a
part with the rooms, and there is a part for
the customers, so you can either chill at the bar
or we have like several lunges or like VIP area

(11:53):
so you can sit there and relax, like and a
lot of the guys they actually do this. So they
come to the brothel and they are like, oh, maybe
like I don't want to see the sex workers yet,
or maybe I'm just like here to hanging out with
my friends. So a lot of the guys they actually
come in and they just like stay at the bar,
and yeah, some of them they just go like straight

(12:13):
to the to the rooms. But there's like no pressure
to like choose the sex workers or like to choose
the services. Basically you can just like hanging out there
and if you decide like you want to meet the
girls or something, you just go there and then it's
up to you.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, So say I want to you know, order a service. Okay,
what are the next steps there?

Speaker 4 (12:38):
So you basically need to walk through the hallway and
the girls, like each of them, they have their own rooms,
so they are either standing in front of the room
or they are sitting in the room or like laying
down in the room. This is pretty much up to them,
and you just like walk past them. And when you
see somebody that you like, you need to start to
speak with her and like ask her, like what do

(13:00):
you want to do? Like what is your price range?
Because as I said, like the girls they are deciding
about the services and about the prices and like everything
by themselves, so like you need to speak with them,
and it might happen that she will like refuse you,
Like she will be like I don't work with you
for any reason. It's always there right to refuse the customer.

(13:22):
So you just basically need to speak with the ladies
and then if she decides that it's okay, you're good
to go and she will just basically invite you to
the room, close the door, and then the fun begins.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah, what if I went in there with a very
specific thing that I wanted, like say, I really wanted
to have anal right, like would I.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
See not actually very specific like a lot of the
guys okay, the top one surveys the guys won't, so.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Okay, okay. Actually, so after that question, to be the
penetrated one, like okay, okay, yeah, sure, okay, I want
to be penetrated. Okay, Well I said it anal because
not every girl wants to do anal right, And so
I was just wondering if if he's told okay, well
the girls in room three, six and seven anal, but
none of the rest of them do, or do you

(14:10):
have to go to each girl?

Speaker 4 (14:11):
And yeah, you have to go to each girl and
ask because like one of the things like we don't
do is like we don't advertise as services because if
she doesn't feel like doing this service at that moment,
like and if we say okay, like this girl she
does X Y Z, and like she wouldn't feel like
doing it maybe at the time or like maybe with

(14:33):
that customer, like she would feel pressure to do it,
so like they all decide like right away.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
So then, leaning on what you kind of said before,
what is like the most specific or interesting thing that
a client has looked for in a brothel?

Speaker 4 (14:50):
So, I mean I've seen everything, but like the top
one is like anal sex like they want to be
the one who's being penetrated gus and like also those
guys are usually like merrit or in the relationship and
they're like I would love to try this, like I
heard it's very pleasurable, but like I don't want to

(15:11):
ask my partner about it because she might think that
I'm like weird or like maybe something will change between them.
So like a lot of the guys who are in relationship,
they come to brothel to try to be penetrated. And
like the weirdest one, I think I've seen everything, so
like different role plays, different type of the Like what

(15:36):
I like about the brothel is that you get to
actually see like the erotic fantasies that are like not
erotic for everyone. So like a lot of the guys
they have their very specific fantasy and like you would say,
it's normal. I mean, like, so we have one customer
and he likes to watch girls eating pizza, like specifically,

(15:56):
have I pizza with the pineapple on it?

Speaker 3 (15:59):
And like the kind.

Speaker 4 (16:02):
I don't, I don't don't know, so like this is
his fantasy and like the girls are paid for eating
pizza in front of him.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
That's all they do. Yeah, Can I can I get
it in front of somebody all day?

Speaker 4 (16:15):
And like it's not like this every day? Okay, son?

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Can I only eat Hawaiian pizza? I mean you can,
you can, but.

Speaker 4 (16:23):
Like probably you will not make that kind of money
just with it, but like maybe you can try it.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
I mean, so, can you explain the rental model why
women are considered like the clients of them?

Speaker 4 (16:37):
We actually decide to have this model, and so our
company it's in the market around like thirty years, so
we are like kind of old and like the biggest
companies in Europe, and we kind of decide this because
we think that this is the most like fair thing
to do. So when you take the share of sex
workers earnings, that means that you will want her to

(17:00):
be working as much as she can because like you
will make a lot of money. And while when you
have this rent and the rent it's around two hundred
dollars for one day, So it doesn't matter if she
makes like three thousand euros a day or three hundred euros,
she still paid the same. And we think that this

(17:22):
is like the fairest model because she can decide like okay.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
I have enough.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
But like the negative aspect about this is like you
need to pay the rent in advance, so like it
might happen that you will be working and you leave
a zero or like with minus, and this sometimes happens.
So I always tell these girls when we have the

(17:49):
hiring the hiring interview, I always tell them like, look,
there's possibility that you will pay the money, you will work,
but like you will not make the money back. So
and for some girls this is like this is the
deal breaker. So they would rather go to club where
they need to share the earnings. But like they start
with zero and the the worst case scenario is that

(18:11):
they will leave with zero. But like with us, they
can live with like minus two hundred zeros.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
A lot of hairdressers do that. They like rent their
station and then they do whatever they do there and
that's and that's how it works.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
So that makes a lot of sense in this way.

Speaker 2 (18:27):
So then do girls like reserve the rooms and do
they are there girls who have a hierarchy in terms
of being able to book rooms before other girls or
do they just have to do in an advance.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
So they have application on their mobile phone, so they
need to book it through this app, and so they
can decide like, Okay, I want to book this room
in like two weeks, and then she just pays the
rent and that's it. She can always move the rent
by herself. But like there's like no hierarchy, so the
first one that pays the room is heard, and yeah,

(19:06):
so that's that's how we kind of decide.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
And then I'm assuming that you're, you know, you have
a selection process in terms of like who you're going
to allow to write rooms there, because you can't just
have like hundreds and hundreds of girls, So how does
that work.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
We actually don't have like selection process. I mean, if
she wants to try to work with us, she can.
So the first day when she works with us, it's
always free, so like we don't want to take their
money for something like she doesn't know if it's going
to work for her or not, So the first day
is always free and it's not like the selection. I

(19:42):
mostly just sit down with them and like I show
them around the club, like how it looks, and then
I told them the rules, and the rules are like
they need to decide by themselves, like what type of
the service, what price, if they will if they will
refuse the customer or not. And for some girls they
are coming from clubs where the manager really manage the business.

(20:05):
They're like, I don't know what to do. It's like,
you need to bring me the customer. And I'm like,
look here you are, like I mean we are there
for you to support you. There's security, but like you
need to speak to the customer, like you need to
set the boundaries. It's like you need to do the talking.
It's like I'm not going to bring you single customer.
And for some girls they're like I don' want to

(20:27):
work here. It's like I need somebody to bring me
the customer and then I'll do the service, but like
I don't want to talk with him, like I don't
know how. There is not a set so we don't
have even like a like a price list, because every
girl has her own prices, so they need to be
able to negotiate the prices. They need to be able
to negotiate the boundaries. And this is something that I

(20:48):
always tell the new girls, like we are here to
support you, but like you need to also stand up
for yourself and you need to be able to communicate.
And so if she if she hears this and she's like, okay, yeah,
I can do this, then I'm like, okay, yeah, then
you can work with us. But like if you think
that this might not be good for you, it's like,
I don't want to put you in position where you

(21:09):
will feel like stress or something. So some of the
girls they are like, no, I don't want to work
with you because I just can't do this.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah that makes sense, because I mean establishing boundaries can
be difficult and it's easy to get maybe pushed into
doing something you're not entirely comfortable with, especially if the
client offers more money.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
And yeah, exactly, this is always what I'm telling the girls,
and especially when they are new in the business. I'm like, look,
a lot of people will offer you a lot of
money for services, and like it's up to you if
you will decide it you will do them or not,
because like I'm not your boss, but you need to
decide and like there might be some consequences, and like

(21:51):
think about it in like long terms, so like you
will maybe do it once, but like then you will
not be able to work for another we so like
think about those at least like financial consequences, or like
think about it in like long term and try to
figure out some like strategy.

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for sponsoring the podcast. Okay, so let's talk about safety
because I'm sure that this is something people are probably
thinking about. Do you have safety measures at the clubs?
They're like a button that they hit if they're like
getting troubled exactly that.

Speaker 4 (23:13):
So yeah, exactly, I mean, this is one of the
measures that we have. So the first is the reception.
So if you are like drunk, drugged, aggressive, like the
guys and the girls working in reception, like, they will
not let you in. The second one is that when
we see that you already hit enough, because like a
lot of the people when they go to brothel, they

(23:33):
think that they can do like whatever, and they like
to drink a lot. So when we see that you
already hit enough, we are like, maybe you should go home,
like sleep a little bit. You can always come the
next day because the ticket is valid for twenty four hours,
so you can always come back. Maybe today it's not
your day. So this is second one. And the third

(23:54):
one is that the girls they all have panic button
in the in the room, so when she presses the
panic button, the guys in from reception they need to
be there within eight seconds from the time when she
press it.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Oh wow.

Speaker 4 (24:08):
And they are trained like quite regularly, so every month
they need to go through this training. Even though they
are with us like for many years, they still need
to repeat it. And we also have like new people,
so they need to learn it and they need to
know it by hard because eight seconds it's like really
short time. So they need to know where exactly the

(24:30):
brothel room is, Like what's the shortest way? Like they
need to communicate with us. They need to so two
of them, they need to decide, like who's gonna go there.
So it's like big procedure we need to that we
need to show them like how to do.

Speaker 2 (24:45):
And is this a procedure that you as the company created, Yeah,
this is just.

Speaker 4 (24:50):
Us, Like I've never seen anybody doing the procedure the same.
I was in Amsterdam, and like I spoke with some
of the workers, so they are my friends and they
work there, and I was like, so, like what will
happen if I will press the panic button? She was like, well, maybe,
like somebody will come in like three minutes. Maybe not.
I was like three minutes. It's a long time because

(25:10):
like we have eight seconds because like somebody told us,
like when you strangle somebody, it takes eight seconds until
you lose the consciousness. So like they need to be
there that fast.

Speaker 3 (25:20):
Wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
How do you collaborate with police or government agencies? Because
you know, brothels are illegal here in California, but in
Nevada they are, so we have all kinds of strange
rules against it. But brothels are not legal everywhere in
Europe just certain I mean Amsterdam, obvious.

Speaker 4 (25:40):
It kind of depends. So we have like few things
that we need to go through, like throughout of the years.
So we have like hygiene inspection coming in. We have
tax office, so we obviously need to pay taxes and
we need to pay correct amount. Then we have the police.
They are usually coming every two or something for a

(26:01):
check up, and they speak with the girls, they speak
with us, so that's it. Then we also need to
follow all the rules that we need to follow, and
so this is what we do.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
What are like some of the specific rules that you
have in order to have a brothel.

Speaker 4 (26:19):
So we can't advertise the services, so we can't say
like this girl will do this service for this amount
of money, Like this is what we can't say because
they are independent constructors, so they need to decide about
this by themselves. I know that some of the clubs,
they they kind of don't care about this, so they

(26:40):
just have the price list on their website. But like
we are very big and like we are really official,
so like we want to follow the.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Rules because you're a big target exactly.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
I mean, like since we are the biggest ones, I mean,
you know, we can't really break the rules even though
like we don't want to, but like.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Can you you advertise the brothel itself weekend?

Speaker 4 (27:02):
So like this is what we can do. We also
can't advertise that we are hiring anybody, so we can't say, hey, girls,
we are having like those very lovely rooms, come to
work with us. We can't do that either. We can't
advertise the brothel itself, like guys, you can come here
have a good time, but we can't say like what

(27:23):
specific time they will have.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
What about testing? What's your take on mandatory STI testing
in the US versus Europe?

Speaker 4 (27:32):
So I heard it in the US it's seven days.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
It depends. Yeah, yeah, it depends, so I think.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
And I haven't directed in like two and a half years,
but it used to be thirty days, like that's like
a while ago. And then it turned to and this
is all self regulated, right, like the industry is a
collective kind of decided upon this. It's two weeks, fourteen
days now, I believe, I believe it's but certain girls

(28:01):
can request shorter time periods. Certain girls can be like
certain girls be like I want a one day test. Yeah,
you know, you have to test a day before I
work with you. And that's entirely to them.

Speaker 4 (28:10):
So in Europe it kind of depends on the state.
So some states they don't regulate this at all, like
it's up to the worker to go to get tested
or like not to get tested. This is on her
because the condoms are always mandatory. So like technically like
they like the test like shouldn't even be a thing

(28:33):
in some places. But in so for example, in Austria,
there is eight weeks that the testing period, so like
every eight weeks the sex workers they need to go
to get tested. And what happened in Austria is that
the managers of those clubs they kind of decided that

(28:54):
they are healthy, so they should provide like oral sex
without a condom because this is what the clients ones,
and so the girls because they are healthy, and it
kind of provides you this like like false false feeling
of safety. This is what kind of led to managers

(29:16):
to push some women to do this, And like, I
don't think it's great because like you should decide about
your own body. So it kind of depends like how
are you going to approach it. It's like it can be
a good thing, it can be like absolutely shitty thing.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
Have you ever had this situation where like a girl
has not used condoms or you know, has has a
certain client that pays extra for not using condoms and
then you find out, I mean, is there any way
you can enforce that?

Speaker 4 (29:49):
So since they are independent contractors, Like I don't really
know what is going on in side of that room
unless she told me. So I know that some of
the girls they are offering extra, which is like or
without a condom. This is like the the most common
extra and I think it's like everywhere in Europe. So

(30:10):
some of the girls they do this, they choose the
clients like with whom they will do it, but like
sex without a condom, I don't think like I've ever
heard this, because like they know it's their safety, it's
their body, and like they don't want to risk it
for any amount of money and just to give you

(30:30):
like the context, Like the best earning women that works
with us, they make around like fifty thousand dollars a month,
so like they are not willing to risk it for
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So the women who make who are the most popular
and make the most amount of money at your club,
What are some common like traits that you see in them?
Like what makes a girl like a really great as
we call in person sex worker.

Speaker 4 (30:55):
So a lot of the people they think that it's
just because of the way how she looks, but that's
definitely not that. Like those women, they are like really
hard working workers. They usually work like six or five
days a week, like twelve hours, just like they are
really like determined to earn a lot of money. And

(31:16):
they usually stay in the industry for like five six years,
and they like I'm all set up, like I don't
need to work, And they have like a really big
like clientele base, so they have like a lot of regulars.
It's not even about the services. It's mostly like how
good you can be with people, And that's like the
most common trade. I would say, like being empathetic and

(31:38):
like know how to speak with people and like be
a really good salesperson because like you need to you
need to pursue them, like to spend a lot of
money with you. And like once the guy is in
the room, they're like, he's not leaving until he will
buy me a lot of money. And they know how
to do this, and they know how to do this,
and like the guy, he doesn't pressured, like he feels

(32:02):
like I had a really good time.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
My wallet's much lighter.

Speaker 4 (32:06):
But yeah, I mean I enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah, So what are the biggest misconceptions about brothels or
the women who work in it that you can.

Speaker 4 (32:17):
There's so many. So like a lot of the people
they think that sex workers are like some miserable human beings,
like this is their last resort and like they come
to displace because they like rationally decided that this is
the best possible way, like how to earn money or

(32:37):
like to have fun. Because like a lot of the
people they kind of assume that, like sex workers are
there just to get the money. And that's correct. I mean,
like you can't ignore the monetary aspect, Like if you
are making like fifty thousand dollars the money you can be.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Like yeah, whatever, all of us get Yeah, I mean
all of us work for money, right, and if you
can find a position that hays you more here usually
get take it as long as what you do falls
in line with what you're comfortable with exactly.

Speaker 4 (33:04):
But like a lot of the girls, they are coming
to the industry and they're like, look, I love the nightlife.
I like to get the attention from the guys. I
mean I would do this probably for free. So like
why I should have like a bad sex for free
when I can take money for the same thing. And
a lot of the girls they have this like some
sort of like adventures. So some of them they are

(33:26):
married and like the guy that is their husband, like
they have no idea.

Speaker 3 (33:31):
Oh my god, where do they think they go?

Speaker 4 (33:33):
Well, usually they say that they either work at the
bar or they are like private babysitters and they work
during the night, and like the guy had no idea exactly.
I mean sometimes sometimes it's very close to babysitting.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
Oh my god. Wow.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
Like the husbands, they have like no idea and like
they have all the tricks like how to how to
hide it, and they just basically have this like as
a huge adventure and then like after six am, they
just go back to their husband and they like live
the normal life. Right. A lot of the people they
think that, like the sex workers, they are like desperate

(34:10):
and like they didn't have like any other choices. But
the truth is at least like what I see, so
like I only see like small part of the industry,
and like we are talking about like indoor voluntary sex work,
like we are not talking about sex trafficking. So a
lot of the people they think that sex workers they

(34:30):
don't have any other choices, but like this is something
that I don't see because like most of the women
they have different choices, like they used to work in
different like industries like retail or like sales or something.
But they were like I have enough. It's like I
can't do this anymore. It's like the money isn't worthy.
Like maybe I will just try this. And like one

(34:52):
of my really good friends from the industry, she's a lawyer.
She speaks six languages, and like she's still in the
industry because she's like, I mean makes sense, like financially,
it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
So how do women describe the empowerment that they feel
in this line of work, because obviously you talk to
these girls on like a day to day basis.

Speaker 4 (35:10):
Yeah, well they don't describe it as empowerment, Like they
don't use this word, but like usually what I hear
it's like I like to get the attention. I mean
I feel like really powerful with the money because like
now they are in this place where they can like
afford everything, and like it's like nothing, it's it's a
problem for them. So they can buy the houses, they

(35:33):
can invest in properties, they can travel, they can do
like whatever they want. So like this gives them like
the sense of like I earned this. I mean, this
is what died it, Like I'm not depending on anyone. Also,
like the attention of the guys and the fact that
like they are their own boss. So usually when they

(35:54):
decide to quit the industry and they want to go
to like normal job and all of this and they
have the boss. I often see them coming back to
the industry and they're like I don't need the money anymore,
but like I don't want to be like anybody is
supporting it. It's like I felt like shit, Like they
treat me like shit. So like this sense of like

(36:17):
this is me. I'm deciding about my buddy, about my services,
about my own money, Like this gives them like the pleasure.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
To just like the financial freedom and the ability to
be independent and all. I mean it's the same.

Speaker 4 (36:34):
I mean also the attention. So like a lot of
them like you can I.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Be somebody who likes me al attention to do this job?

Speaker 4 (36:39):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Sure, Yeah. So what's the most surprising client request you've seen?
I mean, I know you've seen like a lot, but
there's has there ever been anything where Loide the pizza guy,
the pizza guy is the most surprised.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
I mean, I love the guy who came in and
he was dressed as a polar bear. So he had
this huge polar bear go and we were like, what
is going on here? And he was like, yeah, well
it's my fantasy. And like we have this procedure when
you are entering the club, you need we need to
see your face.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
So we were like just walking as a polar bear
and skate on pap no.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
I mean, we need it, like him to take off
the head so we can like see his face. Because
we have also like a blacklist of the people that
are like blacklist states, so we need to make sure
that he's not on that list. So and also because
of the CCTV, so he needed to take it off
and he was like, yeah, well this is like my
fantasy is like I want to play like a polar

(37:36):
bear costume fantasy, like she will be the one who's
going to haunt me and like at the end, like
she will haunt me and like we will have sex.
That is okay, Like why not?

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:48):
I think we call that furriese here, like people who
like to dress up as animals.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
Yeah, but this was like specifically the polar bear. Yeah,
it wasn't like I know the furries, but this was
like specifically like him being a polar bear in like
the polar circle and like she needs to hunt him.
So there was this aspect of like power play and
I actually loved it.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, that's so interesting. I wonder why polar bear specifically.
He must have had some kind of fascination with polar
bears growing up or something like that.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
I don't know, or maybe he just had a like
spara costume and he managed to create this fantasy around it.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Is it a good costume?

Speaker 4 (38:28):
It was nice? I mean I have pictures and it
was like nice because we obviously took a picture of him.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Does he have sex? With the costume still on.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
I don't. I don't think that would be possible. I
think like at some point he needed to at least like.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
Lower the like unless he's a special hole. Maybe he's
a flat I don't know.

Speaker 4 (38:49):
I mean, I don't know. I didn't ask it. Maybe
I should.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
I'm so curious to know if he like stays in
the costume, because I mean, you know, like mascot costumes
that they smell because people look sweat them, and I
mean I can't, but like some people they like it
so to each their own.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
Yeah, I mean I love to see this. I mean
I love to see people getting creative about like the
sexuality and like this is specifically what I love about
like working in brothel because you can see like a
lot of fantasies and like you can't like you don't
need to like identify with anything, so like the brothel
is usually like a playground where you can like try

(39:28):
different things. Like we have the pressure of like identify yourself,
like okay, are you straight or like are you into BDSM.
It's like this this like Western obsession with like identify
identifying ourselves so we can be like readable for others,
Like you don't need to do this in brothel. It's
like you can go there and be like, okay, I

(39:49):
want you to fuck me in like this, this and this,
and I want to wear like a polar bear costume,
and like you don't need to confess to anything. You
don't need to be like okay, well, like, guys, I'm
in two this please No, you can just like try
it and then you will see.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
Yeah, I mean it sounds like a wonderful place of
non judgment. Yeah, yeah, experiment. Because sex is multifaceted. There's
a lot of different ways that you can enjoy sex,
and being polar bears one of them exactly.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
And even though like the sex it's not involved, I
still like that people like to get creative and like
even though you're like okay, but like she didn't have
sex with him, but it was still a service. And
it doesn't matter if it's like dynamic play or if
it's just talking. A lot of the guys they actually
come to brothel just to talk. So sometimes the girls

(40:43):
say like, like I feel like a therapist. Yeah, Like
a lot of the guys they are like, listen, I
have this problem with my wife, Like can you please
maybe help me with the girls, Like, I.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Mean they charge them for that, right, Yeah, they do.
They have a rate for they charge my therapy rate.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Charge a lot for this actually because like sometimes the
guys they can go like three four hours, and it's
like it's a lot of emotional labor.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, and like this is something that a lot.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
Of the people they actually don't don't know about the
sex worker as well. It's like it's emotional labor. So
a lot of the time you actually spent talking, you
spent like comforting each other or like you spent talking
about the boundaries or like something. But it's not just
about sex. Yeah, mostly it's actually not.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah, I mean I heard that from a lot of
girls who escort, you know, and that most of the
date is talking and the sex might be like five
you know exactly, but like it's a four or five
hour date exactly. And I think that there's something about
sex workers where men can really feel not judged because
so many people, especially in this country, grow up with

(41:53):
such a sense of shame around sex, you know, when
they were raised in a family where sex is bad,
you don't talk about its taboo, And so when you
have these desires that you want to act upon like
any woman that you would meet in a bar. Like,
you know, if this guy went to a bar and
met some girl and took her home, was like, hey,
do you mind if I wear a polar bear costume?

(42:14):
She would probably be like, oh, I'm getting that, you
know what I mean? And that is the one place
where you know you're really not judged. It's it's kind
of a very freeing thing about it. So you've said
that American men are often the best customers.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
Why is that because they are not so used to
seeing sex workers and so they are like super polite.
Usually they are like they need to get themselves like
a little bit wrong because they are like not used
to it. Yeah, so like with us, Yeah, like with us,
like walking in the city and like you see the brothels,

(42:50):
it's like they are part of the city. So like
for you, like for the Europeans, it feels like normal
to be around brothels and at least like you know
about them and like you probably have some friends and
they want to want so like you know, it's a
thing and you know like how to behave at least,
But like Americans, like they don't know what to expect

(43:12):
to they're like can I please? And can I? And
I think it's really nice because like when you are
asking the sex workers like please, can I do this?
I think it actually shows like respect. And so some
of the workers they like really like to work with
Americans because like they are really respectful because like they
are a little bit scared, and they also don't have

(43:33):
like the bad heabas because like sometimes the guys when
they are a regulars, they're like, yeah, well, maybe like
I can I can push the boundary a little bit more.
It's like I can negotiate, like I can handle like
Americans like they don't do.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
This, yeah, because they're not coming in all the time.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
I can definitely see it, how I mean, you know
I see this on only fans. I'm sure you probably
do too. Like I've spent a lot of money on
you can I get scared, So I can definitely see
that happening for sure. How do European clients differ from
American ones just in that sense or anything I would say?

Speaker 4 (44:10):
And maybe this is just like my impression, but like
the guys from Europe, they are like not so uptight
about it. Like for them, it's like it's like a
normal experience to go to brothel, whereas like the Americans
say like, oh my god, I went to the brothel.
It's something. I mean, it's like one of the biggest
experiences in my life. And like the European guys are

(44:32):
like more chilled. Maybe they just go to the berthel
and they don't even engage with the sex workers. So
it's just like the place where they can like to
hang out. But Americans, when they are in a brothel,
they need to try a lot of things, and they're like,
just take the picture of me. It's like I am here.
You know, I'm gonna tell all my friends about this,
whereas like for us, it's like yeah, I mean, as

(44:54):
you said, like for us, it's a normal thing. I
mean we are surrounded by it. Like also the sex
culture is different in Europe, but like here in America,
it's like a big thing to go to the brothels. Yeah,
they're like, oh my god, I need to try everything
and those kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
So what about female clients, do you have many of those?

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Not many, We do have some. So some of the
girls they come to the brothel and these are like
usually the girls are like maybe I want to try
something I'm not quite sure. I'm like I was always
curious about this, and I want to do this in
a safe environment. Not every sex worker, though, works with
female clients, so for them it's like something different and

(45:38):
it kind of it's not part of their routine, so
they are like not used to it. So some of
them they're like no, I just like don't want to
do this, which is like fine. We actually had one
and it was really cool. So we had actually one
group of the girls and they came in and they
were like from I guess like Middle East or something.
They looked like princess, like Arabic princes, and they actually

(46:01):
sit down and they were like, this is part of
our culture. So when we are like starting with the
sex sex life, we need to be initiated by somebody
who like is more experienced. So they actually sit down
and they went they went to the room with the
girls and they were just asking about the things. It's like, okay,

(46:22):
so like what I should do, if what I should
do one? So I think this is cool.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
Well they just had like a class. Oh yeah, it's
like a workshop. Yeah, exactly, so interesting.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:34):
Wow, So do you actually have any men that ever
went after why.

Speaker 4 (46:40):
Would you love them working there? But no, we only
have girls, you like, no boys. No, we are like
pretty open to everyone. So we used to have like
few trans people in a past, but we never had boys,
and I think it's a shame. But they have their
own places and like we are very like atterosexual place

(47:01):
for them, it's it's not a good place to make money.
And as for like the girls as a clients to
do the male sex workers, like girls, they don't usually
want to pay for.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
This service because they can usually get it for free.

Speaker 4 (47:17):
Exactly like I think it's like so if I had
the opportunity, like I would definitely like to try it,
because I think it's like much more safer than like
go to the bar and like pick up some random guy.
You don't know who the person is. It's like you
don't know what is going to happen, and like he's
definitely not there to make you feel good. I mean

(47:39):
he's there to make him feel good.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
So wow, this is sort of like a little bit
off topic, but this is like the one place where
I feel I can I can fit in this interesting
piece of information because it's blew my mind. So there
was like a friend of the family that I was
talking to who wanted to have a kid. And she's single,
and so, you know, I assume she doing vitro like
most single women do, and so I was talking to

(48:02):
her about it. You know, it's very expensive. We're you
gonna go for the procedure, and she's like, oh, no, no, no,
I'm getting impregnated like by a man naturally. And I
was like, well, what do you mean. So there is
like a group and I don't want to say the
name of it because I don't want to call it out,
but apparently there's this group on Facebook I think is
where she found them, where you can literally go and

(48:24):
pay a man to impregnate you with the child.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Okay, how much you need to pay, I.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Don't know, but it's a lot less than vuture, I'll
tell you that, Okay, Yeah, and fature will be like
one hundred thousand.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Dollars, Like hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah. I know people who've spent that much because they've
had to do it time because it didn't work. With this,
you just keep this kind of makes sense, I mean,
like way cheaper.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
Yeah, buss, you have the sex, which is a good thing.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Yeah, but I just never I was like, that is nuts,
but yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:54):
That's a thing.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
Yeah, I mean it kind of makes sense.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
It does make sense, right, I mean if you can't
afford in beat your fertilization, which most people can anyways,
I just like, yeah, they just felt like I just
slide that little piece of information in there. Can you
break down the key differences between European clubs and Nevada brothels?
Have you been to the brothels? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Yeah, I visited four of them. It's completely different. I
mean just the location, so they are like in such
a remote locations. Like the rules that the girls need
to follow, I mean the places itself. It were like
they were nice, but like the rules that they need
to follow. I was like, this is like a little

(49:37):
bit steep, because like they need to be on the side,
Like they can't leave. So when they are working, they
need to work. Like the brothel they take the fifty
percent of them, plus they on top of that they
pay the rent as well. So but the rent was
like sixty dollars or like I think it was like
around one hundred dollars or something. I don't I don't know. So,

(49:59):
but so they need to pay the rent, they need
to pay the percentages and like they can't leave. And
this is something that really like stuck with me because
like imagine that like somebody tells you, okay, you can work,
but like there's basically like no autonomy, like you need

(50:21):
to stay there, like we will police you and like
we will check you, and like okay. The prices in
Nevada were like definitely higher. I mean it started with
like thousands, Like one thousand I think was the was
the base. You will not see this in Europe mostly,
so like Europe is like fairly cheap when you compare

(50:44):
this to to Nevada.

Speaker 2 (50:45):
So what's like maybe an aver if I just want
to straight up regular missionary boy girl sex.

Speaker 4 (50:53):
I would say for for half an hour, it's like
one hundred and fifty.

Speaker 2 (50:59):
Euros, Okay, so it's like I think that's six six Yeah,
I don't know. Now, last time I checked it was
like not exactly double, but that was a while ago.

Speaker 4 (51:10):
So yeah, I guess it's like two hundred dollars and
like you're good. Yeah, I think that this gives you
nowhere in America, so like nobody will ever even talk
with you for like two hundred dollars. So the girls
they are like making like less amount of the customer
throughout the day, but I guess like the money and

(51:31):
also like they need to pay the taxes, and like
here the taxes are like much more bigger because like
everything goes through the club like very officially. Yeah, so
the club they know like how much they are making,
whereas like with us, a lot of the girls they
just don't pay the taxis. Like they pay some sort
of taxes, but like don't pay the taxis in fully
because like nobody knows how much they are making. So

(51:53):
they're like I was just declared like the absolute minimum.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
So it's usually a cash business. Oh yeah, they don't
take it out benmo or paf.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
No, no, no, like the papal or like rehold or something.
They are very exactly so like mostly they just take
the cash. Some of the girls they to like bitcoins
in a past, but like.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
I'm assuming you have an ATM machine on insite, Oh.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Yeah we do. And like most of the guys, they
also like to use cash because it leaves no tracy.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yes, yes that makes sense from your perspective as a psychologist.
What role does shameplay and how society sees sex work,
And do you see a huge distinction between America and Europe?

Speaker 3 (52:33):
May I know the answer to that, I'm just gonna
ask anything.

Speaker 4 (52:35):
Well, I see like a huge difference between like America
and Europe. But like still overall people are like so
anxious about sex life and like sexuality, So we need
to confess about our sexuality. Like we are constantly checking
whether we are having like a lot of sex with

(52:56):
we are having like less sex than usual, like if
we should do this in like most normal way, Like
we are constantly like checking ourselves like if the sex
we are having is normal. And I just really don't
like this like western perspective, So like sex should be
something that it's like, it's like joyful, it gives you

(53:18):
pleasure and like as long as like everybody consent, and
like you're doing this because you want to and the
person or like the people around you who are like
you know, doing this with you, who are there like
willingly and they want to do this with you as well,
Like you should not feel anxious whether you are doing

(53:38):
something like not appropriate.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
So if a man's going to come to the brothel
and you know, try it out, what would you tell
them that maybe they should do beforehand. Is there any
advice that you give for guys.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Well, definitely be respectful towards the sex workers. So some
of the guys they kind of assume that when they
pay for the self, they pay for the for the
whole person. So it's not that case. So like the girls,
they always can say no, like I'm not going to
do this, and it's there right. So I always tell

(54:12):
the guys like respect like what they say, and like
don't do anything like she doesn't want you to do
ask her first, because like a lot of the guys
they kind of assume that like everything is okay, like
I can do this, I can do that, and they're like, no,
this is like this, this is not it. And like
also like don't get themselves drunk because like a lot

(54:32):
of the guys they are like they are maybe nervous,
or they like to party, or they may be like
to take drugs or a lot of the guys are
thinking that taking viagra it's a good idea, but like
usually when they are taking the viagra, it's not because
like they have this viagra prescribed, but they just found

(54:54):
it somewhere. Like the friends gave them to to the
friends gave the viagra to them, so and then they
take it and like they don't know what is going
to happen. And like once we actually needed to call
an ambulance because one guy, he was like seventy years
old or something, he took the viagra and like his
heart just like they didn't almost make it. So we

(55:17):
needed to call an ambulance. And like his son was
there and I was like what did he take and
he was like I don't know, I don't know. And
then he was like, yeah, well he took viagra. And
I was like, but you know, you can't take this
unless it's prescribed. And then he was like drinking. So
we needed to call an ambulance and like luckily they

(55:39):
saved him. But like a lot of the guys, they
think that this is a place like where they need
to show up and.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Like and show off and show off.

Speaker 3 (55:47):
Yeah yeah yeah wow.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Can you imagine dying of a heart attack and a
brothel because you took too much viagra and your son
is there and your son is there, do you see
a lot of like families come in sometimes like father's son,
sometimes mother daughter.

Speaker 4 (56:06):
I mean we have a mother and daughter working together.
Oh so that's like there was like a little bit unusual.
I mean I got used to it over the years.
But like they also sometimes take the guys like to
the room to you know, do the service, like both
of them, which like for me, when I picture myself
with my mother.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Like please no. Yeah, I feel like that's the case
for most of us. But yeah, but like we.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
Like recently we had a guy and he's quadriplegic.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Quadriplegic, yeah, quadruplegic.

Speaker 4 (56:39):
And his parents they actually take him to Russel quite regularly.
So I think this is nice and they are like
suctual love the people and the guy. He's also very nice.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
You know.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
That reminds me of this one time I we were
talking about sex work and we were talking about, you know,
how it should be legal and how people shouldn't be
shamed for hiring sex workers. And I actually had a
Patreon member who wrote me an email that I never forgot,
and he said, you know, he thanked me for the
interview and for the perspective, and he said, you know,

(57:13):
the thing is is that people don't really ever think
about those of us who really can't.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Experience intimacy with a woman in an easy way.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
He was in a wheelchair, and you know, people say, oh,
go out there and get a real girlfriend. He's like,
that is like very difficulty. You think I can go
to the barn, a girl's going to go home with me?
Like most women don't want to have sex with me
because I'm in a wheelchair, and so should I be
denied that human touch, you know, that experience because I'm

(57:46):
you know, crippled and going and seeing a sex worker
who is providing a service. You know, He's like it
it feel It makes me feel like loved and it
makes me feel so much better. And he said, you know,
these these sex workers, like I know that they care
about me, you know, in a way that like your

(58:07):
therapist cares about you when you see they're not gonna,
you know, ye move in with you, but they do
care about you. And Yeah, I just thought that it
was a perspective I'd never thought about, you know, because
you don't think about the men who you know, really
struggle to connect with women, and that there's a lot
of them out there. You don't even have to be handicapped. Yeah,
for that to happen exactly.

Speaker 4 (58:29):
I mean, we have quite a lot of guys and
they are coming in and they are like, they don't
identify themselves as an in cel, like in voluntary celibate,
but they are like, I can't get like anyone to
get to like me enough so they can have like
sex with me, So they just come to the brothel.
And I think it's like it's a good decision actually,
like instead of like hating girls for like not choosing

(58:53):
him or something, you just be like, okay, yeah, I
just pay for the service.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
And and I mean that can also be a comp
and s builed her too.

Speaker 4 (59:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
You know, like the more you do something, the more
comfortable you become with it, and then maybe you feel
more comfortable with women. But if you're not like having
any experiences with women at all, then you become more
and more isolated.

Speaker 4 (59:12):
Yeah, and also the girls they can like really feel it,
so sometimes they do like this confidence boost. So they
told this guy like, oh my god, you are the
best one. I was like, oh, yeah, thank you. And
they actually believe this.

Speaker 2 (59:24):
So I remember Alice Little came on and she talked
about how she oh she's amazing, Yeah, she's amazing. She
talks about how she works with a lot of like
autistic guys and how you know they have very each
one has a very specific you know need, like because
there are sensory you have sensory issues. You know, some
of them want to be touched really hard or touch soft,

(59:45):
and you know you have to know like how to
you know, touch them and in a way that works
for them, and how to.

Speaker 4 (59:53):
Work with them because it's it's work. So this is
like mostly when people think about sex work, they don't
think think about you need to actually have these people
skill and it's like a huge part of the job.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Yeah, I agree, what do you want the general public
to understand the most about sex work?

Speaker 4 (01:00:11):
I would really love to see sex work being like decriminalized,
and not only sex work, but also the third parties
as a like a brothels and those kind of like
supportive structures because when you say to the workers, okay,
only you can do sex work, but like you can't
hire anyone for your own safety, you need to make

(01:00:33):
sure that there will be nobody around you helping, like
in any way and like being for example, being an
independent escort, it takes a lot of energy and time,
so you need to find a place where you will
do it. You need to do all the laundry, you
need to do all the texting with the people, you
need to do the scheduling, and then on top of this,

(01:00:55):
you need to do the actual work and plus the security.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
So you need to be you need to make sure
you got a safe background checks that, yeah exactly. So
many women who have all these different ways that they
try to vet a customer, but like, you never you
can never be one hundred percent sure, right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:11):
Yeah exactly, and like you should be able to hire
somebody who will do this for you. So when you
say like, okay, you can do sex work, but like
you can't do anything to make you safer in this work,
like that's a little bit fucked up.

Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the last thing I want to
ask you about is your Instagram, Okay, because obviously that's
where I found you, and I know you have a
lot of followers. What give you the idea to start that?
And when did you really start to see it pick
up and realize like, oh I have an audience for this.

Speaker 4 (01:01:45):
Yeah. Well it was very randal So like after like
eighty years in the company, like I felt like a
little bit burned out. So I was like everything is
the same. And then like I also struggled, and I
think that this is something that like all people in
academia kind of struggle with. So you do the research,
you spend enormous time doing it, and then like you've

(01:02:10):
published the article and then like ten people read it
and like that's all you know, and like probably two
of those ten people are your parents, say like that's it.
So I felt that way, and I was like, maybe
I will just like start social media to talk about
like brothel industry, because like I felt this narrative is

(01:02:30):
kind of missing, like nobody does that. There's like a
lot of sex workers talking from their perspective, and I
love this. I think it's like really vital for people
to see this. But then like there is nobody talking
about the brothel side of the industry, about the manager,
about the managerial site. And this is also my PhD
two pick, so I study management of legal or the

(01:02:51):
criminalized sex work. And I was like, maybe just like
I will start the social media and talk about this
and I will just see like where this leads. And
like I didn't have any experience with social media, so
like my my personal instagram, I think I have like
thirty people following me or something like I don't I
didn't know how to do this. So at some point,

(01:03:12):
I think after like three months, it got like really
big and like everything went like viral, like all the
all the videos, and I was like, oh shit, like
what am I supposed to do now? Like I don't know,
like I wasn't ready for this. And then like I
found out like very quickly. Then Instagram it's like super prudish.
It's like I was ben it a few times, like

(01:03:35):
the things got flagged and I was like, shit, so
maybe this is like not the good place for me
to talk about those stuff. And then I was like,
maybe there is another platform. And then that's when I
found OnlyFans because like here I can basically like talk
about everything that I want to talk about, and like
I can do the content that I want to do
without like any fear that like somebody will read my

(01:03:58):
profile and like I will be like with nothing.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I'm going to assume that you haven't even tried
to do a TikTok account, because like.

Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
I mean, I I have TikTok.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Account, but you have to be more careful on that
than Instagram, right, Like it's weird how it's the dynamic
has changed.

Speaker 4 (01:04:13):
So now even though when I'm like posting the video,
I'm like this might get like bent me or something. Yeah,
like maybe this is the reason why I will lose
my Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
But it's all educational though, I mean yeah, but they
don't get.

Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
Yeah, they just don't get like the deep plot, like
the deep plat forming of the of the people who
talk about sex work and like sexuality.

Speaker 3 (01:04:36):
It's like it's a huge Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
It's like even though like I think it's okay, Instagram
doesn't think about it in that way.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
So, yeah, what do you think is the most challenging
thing about your job? And what's the most rewarding.

Speaker 4 (01:04:51):
There's like so many So first I need to get
used to the stigma obviously, so right now, like I
don't probably I'm just like really used to it or
maybe just like people don't say this into my face,
but I needed to get used to it. Like people
like judging me like quite heavily, and like a lot

(01:05:13):
of the people they actually told me, oh, you're a
manager of a brothel. That's even worse than if you'd
be prostitute.

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Right because they feel like you're you're the and you're
like pushing exactly exactly like a lot of the people
they told me, Oh, you're pimp, and I'm like I'm
actually not, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
So like let me explain it to your Yeah, but
like right now, like I just really don't care. Like
maybe this will sound mean, but like I don't care
about like opinions of people that like don't know anything
about the industry and like their opinion is based on emotions,
like not the real data or like statistics or facts,
and like they don't know anyone from the industry. They

(01:05:50):
think it's bad. And this is the reason why I
actually talk about it, because I've heard like so many
people telling me. Look like before I discovered your account
or something, like I knew that this this like industry
is a thing, but like I didn't know anything about it,
and like now I can see it can be good place,

(01:06:11):
it can be like super shitty place. Like I don't
want to glamorize the industry, but like I'm trying to
make people just see that like not everything is like
black and white. So I needed to get used to
the stigma and like obviously the most rewarding part, like
being in a brothel it's like seeing the girls becoming

(01:06:34):
like powerful and like independent and like really know, like
learning how to stand up for themselves and like being
this like better as bitches. Like I love to see this.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
I love that guy I can relate to like so
many things that you said, Well, thank you so much
for coming on. This is so interesting. I think you
answered a lot of questions that so many people have
about brothels. If people have more questions for you, where
should they follow you on social media?

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
So they can either follow me on Instagram which is
Catherine Underscore the Underscore Noir, or I have TikTok and
I have no idea what's my name there? So maybe
I'll just like send it to you any willing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
Don't worry. We will put a little like banner under
the video that will say you're the fence, so they
can decide what's your what's the only fans in? Uh,
it's Catherine Dinir okay, all no spaces, all forwards, okay
together amazing, amazing And you guys can follow me on
Instagram at Holly Randall also on Twitter as well. I

(01:07:40):
have a TikTok. I forgot what it is? Is it
Holly Randall and Filter Holly Randall, seventy eight. There I go.
I have a snapchat too, Holly podcast. One of my
videos went like kind of viral.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
The other day.

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):
Congratulations are you What was it about?

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
I think it was about me how I had a
small towel to draw myself off in the shower because
I forgot to bring towels to the gym. It was
not an okay, it was not interesting. No, it wasn't No,
it wasn't. Sorry that one got a lot of views
because of this. It was the the TikTok thing that
we did with the reading glasses. Don't do it, don't
do it, don't do it. And then I put on

(01:08:17):
reading glasses because anyways, yeah, because I need them because
I'm blind. One day, you guys will be watching the
show and then all of a sudden, I will have
reading glasses. And that's when you know that I am
officially like gone to seed.

Speaker 5 (01:08:31):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
If you want to support this podcast, watch these episodes live,
get access to bonus Q and a questions like We're
going to do next? Go to Patreon dot com slash
Holly Randall Unfiltered. Thank you guys so much for watching.
Couldn't do it without you. Appreciate you so much, and
I'll see you next week.