December 6, 2024 • 37 mins
Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a three-episode series in which we visit spaces around New
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Episode Transcript
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Colby King (00:00):
[Music begins.] Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a
(00:03):
three-episode podcast series inwhich we visit spaces around New
York City that are sacredspecific communities. These
include historic Black churchesin Harlem as well as the Chelsea
Piers, a gathering place formembers of the ballroom scene.
There are many kinds of Blackchurches in the United States,
with hundreds of years ofhistory. Ballroom is community
of mostly queer and transperformers from Black and Latinx
(00:26):
backgrounds, originating inHarlem
Aya Labanieh (00:31):
Join us as we walk around these sacred spaces with
the people who love them. Wediscuss their personal journeys
with spirituality and how thespaces they've chosen to inhabit
connect to longer histories ofcivil rights, women's equality
and queer liberation.
Milan Terlunen (00:52):
We hope these conversations will connect with
your own experiences, whetheryou identify as LGBTQ+, as a
Christian or as part of anyother religious or spiritual
community - or none at all. Ifyou can, we encourage you to
listen to this podcast whilewalking around a place that is
sacred to you.
Colby King (01:15):
Our podcast team includes people with diverse
religious backgrounds and arange of racial, sexual and
gender identities. You can findout more about the team and the
project at our website,insacredspacespodcast.com.
Milan Terlunen (01:31):
We hope these episodes will inspire you to
reflect on your own uniquerelationship to spiritual
experience. Throughout eachepisode, we've included musical
interludes composed by StoneButler, that give you some
private moments to meditate onwhat you've heard.
Aya Labanieh (01:54):
For this episode, we're at Grace Congregational
Church of Harlem with PastorNigel Pearce and his wife Lisa
Pearce. Nigel and Lisa discusshow acting with love shapes
everything from their renovationof the church building to the
spiritual values of theircommunity.
We begin the conversationoutside the church on West 139th
(02:17):
Street, a quiet side street afew blocks away from where we
were for the first episode. It'sa morning in early summer, and
we're standing in front of alarge red brick building with
rounded windows, an old oak doorand a steep roof that rises high
above the surrounding houses.[Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (02:42):
So Nigel and Lisa, it's great to be here with
you, and we're out on the streetoutside of this building. So can
you tell us a bit about thisbuilding and a bit about the
church that is located here?
Nigel Pearce (03:00):
Okay, so you're situated right in Central
Harlem. And so Grace Churchstarted on 135th at the YMCA,
and they spent 10 years theresaving up $50,000, which I say
today is about three and a halfmillion dollars, to purchase, to
(03:20):
purchase this building.Remember, folks who were just,
you know, either out of slaveryor their parents were certainly
slaves with nothing, and wereable to put together $50,000 to
purchase this building and beginGrace Congregational Church, and
then celebrate here. 1923 iswhen they acquired, so next year
(03:44):
is our 100th anniversary here.
Milan Terlunen (03:49):
Yeah, so before we go inside, are there other
things that you know we shouldtalk about with this building?
Or I know the buildings aroundare also important to history of
this place?
Nigel Pearce (04:01):
Grace Church owns both buildings on both sides,
and so we've always providedhousing for folks, which has
provided additional income forthe church. So we've been
involved in what we callmoderate-income housing and
making sure people's living andenvironment, which is important
(04:23):
to people, right? A home is soimportant and vital to folks and
their lives. And so we wanted tomake sure that we preserve the
lives of those in thisneighborhood and keep rents at a
manageable level.
Milan Terlunen (04:35):
Yeah, because rents are increasing
dramatically, right?
Nigel Pearce (04:39):
Right. And even if you're on a living wage, $15 an
hour, you can afford to livenowhere in New York City. So it
is important that we find a wayto take care of people and curb
the housing issue andaffordability issue that we're
finding.
Milan Terlunen (05:00):
Lisa, is there anything else that you want to
say about the building, anythingabout the outside that...?
Lisa Pearce (05:08):
No, I think, I think, I guess, the most
important thing for me when Ifirst came to this church was -
and it wasn't that long ago,right? It was in 2016. I
thought (05:22):
it feels like home. I was expecting, I didn't know
what the church would look like.I, you know, had never, you
know, seen it before. And when Igot here, it felt like home. And
the reason it felt like home isbecause it's small. It's small.
I was expecting, you know, oneof these mega churches with lots
of people. It's Harlem. [Soundof road drilling in background.]
(05:44):
So when I came here, I thought,this is absolutely beautiful,
welcoming. Yeah, very much. So Ifelt, when I walked through the
doors, I felt, oh my gosh,there's this sense of peace and
tranquility, and that was reallyimportant.
Milan Terlunen (06:04):
I feel like the peace and tranquility right now
is being a little bit ruined bythe road repairs happening. [All
laugh.] Shall we continue thisin a more peaceful soundscape?
Aya Labanieh (06:19):
[Music begins.] We're now inside the church. We
(06:50):
feel small as we look up at theimposing roof. From below, in
one corner of the roof, we cansee some holes where the plaster
and wood have been broken away.[Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (07:09):
So we've come inside, and when I look up
towards the ceiling, I'm seeingsome areas where the, sort of,
the plaster has been brokenaway, and we can see the brick
and the kind of woodwork. Sowhat's, what's going on there?
Nigel Pearce (07:28):
So I apologize it looks a little disarray, because
after Sandy our slate rock wasshifted. And so we brought a
structural engineer. He said: not only do you need a new roof, (07:38):
undefined
but you need a whole newstructure to hold up the new
roof. And so we, I had toconvince the congregation that
we probably need to take thiswhole structure down and build a
new one. And so we have apicture of a new building, seven
storeys, which would allow us togo from eight units of
(07:59):
affordable housing to 42 unitsof affordable housing.
Milan Terlunen (08:02):
So the affordable housing in the
buildings next door to this,you'd be going from eight to 42
correct? It's a big jump!
Nigel Pearce (08:11):
It's a big jump, yeah. So we take down the
Lisa Pearce (08:12):
You know, I have to say, it has been a difficult
building next to us, we wouldexpand this space here, and then
we would go up seven storeys.And so you'll see the pieces
that have been cut away wereactually the demolition guys who
process,fussing. And I looked at her and
came here and started to see howthey were going to dismantle the
church. So those wereself-imposed, those things, and
(08:33):
you'll see others further up onthe balcony. But the rest of the
ceiling is because of the leaksthat we've had, and it's very
difficult to repair, very costlyto repair, I should say. So
we're going to be doing somerepairs because we didn't think
we'd be in this building aslong. We thought by this time we
would have been out andconstruction would have started.
(08:56):
But Landmark - we've gotlandmarked in the midst of our
plans, and so that has put us ona hold for a moment. And so
we're trying to work withLandmark to figure out, how do
we create a new church that fitsin but also allows us to be
financially well, as well?
I said (10:10):
isn't it beautiful, though? And I said to her
husband sees the church throughthe eyes of love, and love makes
even the things that arefalling, you know, in the
ceiling, love makes everythingbeautiful. And so, you know, I
(10:30):
look around and I see, you know,the issues, I... Clearly the
roof, you know... But it looksso incredibly beautiful, too.
Nigel Pearce (10:38):
Right.
Aya Labanieh (10:43):
[Music begins.] As we walk forward, we see a grand
(11:17):
piano ahead of us, and turningback, we see an organ with
gleaming pipes on a balconyabove. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (11:29):
So, so we've got...
Nigel Pearce (11:32):
We've got a baby grand here, and we've got an
organ, which the pipes are allin the balcony section. Yeah,
all still working. Very much. Soin fact, the guy's coming here
today to take a look at it. Butmusic was the centerpiece of
Grace Church. It was called theLittle Opera House of Harlem.
Opera House of Harlem. Becauseour pianist then, Dr Motley,
(11:55):
grew up with Dizzy Gillespie,Max Roach, Miles Davis, and he
played with all those folks. Andso Marian Anderson would come
and sing. Duke Ellington livedaround the corner. Hall Johnson
was a famous, or he put togethera lot of the Negro spirituals.
And he was very famous for that.And he trained our choir back
(12:17):
then in the day. So we had avery amazing, when I got here
there was about 30 people in ourchoir, and it was an amazing
choir that were veryprofessionally trained, and they
all came and had amazing voices.And you can hear the acoustics
in here. You almost don't need amicrophone that, you know, the
sound travels very well in thisroom.
Milan Terlunen (12:37):
Yeah. I mean, I feel like since we walked to the
front, I'm already hearing moreof an echo.
Nigel Pearce (12:42):
Yes.
Milan Terlunen (12:42):
That's clearly a design, right?
Nigel Pearce (12:44):
So people love to sing in this space, and so this
was a very important space, andespecially music in this, for
this church has always been verycenter...
Milan Terlunen (12:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Nigel Pearce (12:54):
Centerpiece!
Milan Terlunen (12:55):
Yeah.
Aya Labanieh (13:07):
[Music begins.] On this weekday, we're the only
ones inside the building, but itfeels like Nigel and Lisa are
picturing the church communitypast, present and future, all
(13:29):
gathered in this space. [Musicends.]
Milan Terlunen (13:38):
So, Lisa, you you mentioned, you know, looking
at this building with, you know,the eyes of love, and how that
transforms it. And I think, youknow, people might be a bit
surprised, just to kind of tohear that this church community
itself is, you know, wanting totake down this church and, you
(14:03):
know, build something new in itsplace. So that we're in this
space physically, you've beenpointing out all these kind of
beautiful, precious things aboutit, and at the same time, you
know, you're working towardstaking it down, building
something new
Nigel Pearce (14:18):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (14:19):
So...
Lisa Pearce (14:20):
What's that about?
Milan Terlunen (14:21):
Yeah, I'm just curious to hear a bit more about
that.
Lisa Pearce (14:24):
You know, I think... We want to continue to
exist, right? We want tocontinue to serve the community
and live out the GreatCommission. So part of it really
is about the survival of thechurch and the work that we do,
(14:47):
and unfortunately, where we areright now, we cannot sustain the
building. So we have to dosomething. We have to do
something, um...
Nigel Pearce (15:01):
Um, relevant...
Lisa Pearce (15:01):
And do more! Right?
Nigel Pearce (15:02):
Right.
Lisa Pearce (15:02):
We want to do more because there's so many needs
around us.
Nigel Pearce (15:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (15:07):
Well, I mean, and just concretely, you said
going from like eight affordableunits to 42 that's already doing
more in a really, you know,tangible...
Lisa Pearce (15:16):
... substantial way.
Nigel Pearce (15:17):
And building a church without pews, because we
could use this space in so manydifferent ways throughout the
week for the community. I knowwhen I first said it, the
congregation was like "off withyour head", but it made sense
when I took them to otherchurches, like 29th Street,
where they turned it into a dayfor lunch for folks from 11 to 2
(15:37):
and anybody can walk in, andthey serve 1800 lunches for
people, because they're able totake, there's no pews, they are
able to, you know, put tablesout and have people. So you can
have multi-functional, multiuses when you don't have fixed
furniture that really takes up alot of space, and you can do
really anything else with it.
Milan Terlunen (15:58):
Yeah. So, yeah, I'm hearing that, you know this,
this new church that you'rewanting to build, it could do
more for the community. It couldhave more functions. It could
serve more people more of thetime throughout the week.
Nigel Pearce (16:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (16:14):
Yeah... And maybe that also sort of, to come
back to this idea of, like, youknow, this idea of love, like,
there's, there's, you know,loving this building, loving
this place, but there is also,like, loving the people.
Colby King (16:30):
That's right, yeah. [Cell phone chime.] Right,
right.
Nigel Pearce (16:34):
Mmm-hmm.
Lisa Pearce (16:35):
Yeah... and sometimes, you know, you have to
make hard decisions based on,on, on that love, right?
Aya Labanieh (17:05):
[Music begins.] We continue walking forward between
the rows of wooden pews thathave stood here for many years,
but might not be here muchlonger. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (17:30):
So, I mean, can we talk a bit more about love,
you know, in a theologicalsense? So, you know, we've been
talking about some of the verykind of practical ways that you
can show love, like givingpeople affordable housing
Nigel Pearce (17:47):
Yeah.
Milan Terlunen (17:48):
But I think there is also something more
kind of immaterial, morespiritual, that, that love can
mean. So I'd love to hear, I'dlove to hear the two of you talk
a bit more about that.
Nigel Pearce (17:59):
Yeah I think one of the central sermons I
preached here early was (18:02):
love is a verb. And it talks about the
one where the woman, who was 18years bent over and Jesus saw
her. And so I talked about (18:11):
he saw her, he touched her, and he
spoke to her. And so loverequires those, sort of, three
components. Seeing people notfor who they are, but who they
can be. And so seeing the, youknow, we don't want to see with
all your warts and all yourblemishes, but who you really,
(18:32):
truly are is really on theinside. And so love requires us
to see people and see throughthe exterior and into their
hearts. But also touching peoplein a way that makes a profound
difference and change in theirlife.
Lisa Pearce (18:47):
And I'll tell you, I think I have to go back to our
first date. And the reason Ihave to go back there is
because...
Milan Terlunen (18:56):
Your first date with... Nigel?
Lisa Pearce (18:57):
With, with, with, yeah, with Pastor P. I had, you
know, I went down my list. [Alllaugh.] I went down my list
because, you know, the churchhas hurt so many people, so many
communities, and you know, Iwanted to understand where he
(19:17):
was theologically, and to ensurethat it aligned with my own
theology. And so I'll neverforget asking him how he felt
about the gay community, forexample. I have a dear friend
who is gay that I, that I grewup with from childhood, and I
(19:38):
said to him, I need tounderstand how you feel about
that, because I believe thatwhere the Bible says that "God
so loved the world", that thatmeant everybody. I have a nephew
who is transgender, and I'llnever forget when she came and
(19:58):
talked to me about what wasgoing on in her life, that she
now wanted me to refer to her asJason, and she explained
to say.
Nigel Pearce (20:07):
Right.
everything to me, and I lookedat him, and I said "Jason, a
rose by any other name wouldsmell as sweet", right?
Lisa Pearce (20:18):
And, you know, I think it's important for us to
be the people that God... thatwe believe that God has created
Milan Terlunen (20:29):
Yeah.
Lisa Pearce (20:30):
And so...
Nigel Pearce (20:34):
Cos she was checking off my list! [All
Lisa Pearce (20:34):
Hey, right, I had my checklist! And so, oh, the
Milan Terlunen (20:34):
You had a checklist...
laugh.]
Lisa Pearce (20:34):
You know, what does love mean to you?
other thing, of course, was Ilike to dance. So, you know,
Milan Terlunen (20:39):
You had the same list.
there are some traditions where,you know, that's a sin. So I
Nigel Pearce (20:42):
We had the same list. Yeah...
Lisa Pearce (20:42):
Yeah, what does love mean to you?
Nigel Pearce (20:44):
So I was smiling because she was checking off my
needed to understand where hewas there. And he was just
smiling the whole time.
list at the same time.
Lisa Pearce (21:02):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we're to love all of God's
creation.
Nigel Pearce (21:06):
Amen, amen.
Lisa Pearce (21:08):
It's incredibly important, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (21:10):
Well, and that story you were just telling
about your family member who'strans, like, it sounds like it
connects with what you weresaying earlier about like,
seeing people for who they areinside. And kind of, you know,
at least initially, if theoutside doesn't, doesn't match,
right, that, you know, you seethem the best way they can be.
Nigel Pearce (21:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Aya Labanieh (21:45):
[Music begins.] As we get close to the front, we
(22:12):
take care to avoid tripping overthe cables that run between
various microphones, lights,video cameras and a huge sound
mixing board. Since the pandemicbegan, this equipment has
allowed hundreds of people toattend the Sunday services at
Grace Church. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (22:32):
I wanted to ask a bit about womanist theology,
because I know that's somethingthat you know a lot about, have
a history with. And ReverendDerrick McQueen mentioned it
briefly in our previousconversation. But yeah, I would
love to hear a bit more, likefor people who don't know about
it, what is it and what's your,what's your history with it?
Lisa Pearce (22:56):
So when I went through seminary, it really was
when I was introduced towomanist theology. I worked with
the Reverend Dr Katie Cannon,who was an ethicist, a womanist
ethicist, and really started tounderstand... It really was a
response to Black theology,which was predominantly... it
(23:23):
rested and anchored in theexperiences of Black men,
feminist theology of whitewomen. So womanist theology
really was about centering theexperiences of Black women and
using that as the foundation andanchor upon which you, upon
(23:43):
which you live, live your lifeand live in the world. But it
also means and encompasses andincludes everyone, right? So it
doesn't matter who you are, andit's all about what we've really
been talking about, that it's aninclusive kind of theology that,
that loves everyone, and itreally is at the heart of the
(24:07):
way I think about my owntheology and, and the work that
we do in the church.
Milan Terlunen (24:14):
Can you spell that out a bit more just, so,
what does centering Black womendo to how we understand the love
that we've already been talkingabout?
Lisa Pearce (24:26):
Yeah, so when you think about the Black woman's
experiences in America, one ofthe things that we know is that
during slavery, families weretorn apart, and so Black women
found themselves in a spacewhere they had to embrace
(24:49):
children that may or may nothave been their own, right, and
that was at the heart ofbuilding community that we're
all here, you're all loved. Oneof the things that Dr Katie
Cannon does, she tells us, sheused to tell this beautiful
story about one of her ancestorswho, when slavery was abolished,
(25:09):
who went around to everyplantation, and she found her
children and said, "Yep, thatone is mine, and that one is
mine, and that one is mine", andthen embrace children whose
parents, you know, who were justkind of orphans. That's what
we've done. That's what wecontinue to do.
Milan Terlunen (25:29):
So, so not biologically hers but just
Lisa Pearce (25:30):
No, yeah, that's what we've done. That's what
anyone...
we've always done. Incommunities, when children
didn't have places to go andfood, we come together. I mean,
the Black church was at thecenter of everything that we
did, and Black women were justout there trying to make a
(25:50):
difference. And that all comesfrom a place of love. You know,
we've got to get there together,so everybody come and be a part
of this community of love.
Milan Terlunen (26:01):
But yeah, not, not a kind of, like, nice, fuzzy
love, like, it's a love thatreally is...
Nigel Pearce (26:08):
Right
Milan Terlunen (26:08):
... in a situation that is so terrible...
Lisa Pearce (26:11):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (26:11):
... you know, finding it even there.
Nigel Pearce (26:13):
And finding love even when you've been treated in
a very difficult and harshmanner.
Lisa Pearce (26:19):
Right.
Nigel Pearce (26:19):
How do you, where do you get that love to treat
others kind, still, when you'vebeen treated so harshly?
Aya Labanieh (27:11):
[Music begins.] We take a few steps up towards the
altar. Today it looks like anempty stage, but every Sunday
it's the focal point for music,ritual and prayer. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (27:26):
So you mentioned that you both came from other
denominations, other kinds ofChristianity, before arriving
here. And I'm curious to hear,maybe specifically with this
idea of kind of love being socentral to to the theology here
(27:47):
and to the community here, youknow, how is that different from
other churches you've been apart of? Or maybe, how is some
of the things that you'vebrought from those earlier
churches to the community here?
Nigel Pearce (28:02):
So I've had a circuitous route, sort of, to...
[Laughter.] ... to pastoringGrace Church. But, you know, I
started out, grew up Catholic,which had a very, you know... I
almost saw God as this old whiteman waiting for you to do
something wrong. And then goingto the Pentecostal Church, which
was all about the Holy Spiritand speaking in tongues, and,
(28:24):
and just much more open andfree, but also alive. And then
two years of being a Baptistminister helped me to, you know,
I... And I got there because DrKing, and I could see what
social justice... And that madea difference, that you could
(28:45):
actually help people by, bypreaching and speaking to people
in a way that showed them a moreloving, more excellent way. And
so that's got me on the path,and then that led me to Gandhi
and his, his love, and how hewas able to transform a country
in India by, by, by non-violent,right, revolt. And, and that led
(29:10):
me to Sufism and, and Tagore andRumi. And so I ended up in an
interfaith seminary, whichyou...
Milan Terlunen (29:19):
So interfaith, not just Christian?
Nigel Pearce (29:21):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (29:21):
Okay.
Nigel Pearce (29:22):
So you practice Hinduism with a Hindu priest.
You go to Islam, Islam, and youpractice with a iman, and you
know the Jews, and we go to seea rabbi, and we spend time to
learn their religion. And thebelief there is that there's
only one divine and you havemany paths, right, which was
very different than I grew upwith in the Catholic sense,
(29:44):
where it was just Christians andnobody else. But here it was:
there was one divine and manypaths. And so for me, that was
much more appealing to me andmuch more loving that, you know,
everybody has access to thedivine. And that's really what
opened me up to the, more,concept of love and really a
(30:07):
much more kinder Christian faiththan I had before.
Milan Terlunen (30:13):
How about you, Lisa?
Lisa Pearce (30:16):
So I grew up in the Baptist tradition, and I grew up
in what's called a "fire andbrimstone" church. And I was
scared of God. I did not see Godas loving or any of those
things. And it's interesting,because I... and both of my,
(30:38):
both of my parents are pastors.My father recently passed away.
My mother's the pastor of achurch in Virginia. And so what
happened to me is, you know, Ihit that first rough patch in my
life, and it was just horriblypainful, and I found my way back
to God. But I had to deconstructeverything I had... I knew about
(31:03):
God, and reconstruct God in away that was more loving. And
it's, you know, the elders knew,I could see it on their faces. I
look back on my... And so theyknew something that I didn't
know, that I wasn't getting fromthe experience I had in the
church, and the reason that Ikept going back, obviously, I
(31:24):
didn't have any choice, really,but there was so much love
there. The action was there, youknow, my grandmother and my
aunties and everybody, so youfelt the love. But in the
pulpit, you know, a preacherwas, you know, telling us "you
gotta do this and don't do that,and you're going to hell if you
do this" and all of that stuff.So I've had a wonderfully
(31:52):
expansive definition of lovesince, since those you know,
since those days when I was achild.
Milan Terlunen (31:59):
You mentioned having a gay friend from
childhood. So was that alsosomething that sort of took a
while to kind of find thattheology that would...
Lisa Pearce (32:10):
Embrace, embrace him.
Milan Terlunen (32:11):
Yeah.
Lisa Pearce (32:12):
Right. So yeah and I, and that's another reason why
I was just like, "Who is thisGod over here?", because I loved
my friend, and I knew that Godloved him, right? But that
wasn't the God that was over atthe church that I was in. So,
(32:34):
you know, sometimes at one pointI said, "Oh my gosh, I feel like
I'm schizophrenic. There are allthese things that are, that
don't make any sense to me. Howdo I reconcile all of this so
that I, you know, I come outwhole?" So again, it was just,
it was a process.
Aya Labanieh (33:04):
[Music begins.] As we feel our time coming to an
(33:32):
end, we turn back to face thewhole church and watch the light
stream in from outside. [Musicends.]
Milan Terlunen (33:42):
So I mean, I feel like one big thing that
I've been getting from thisconversation is, like, that your
own theology is something thatyou yourself can, can, you know,
that it's a long journey toarrive at something that you
feel really happy with and thatmatches your values, and that,
(34:04):
you know... I think that maybe alot of people think that
theology is something that iskind of, like, given to them,
and you either accept it or youreject it. And maybe especially
LGBTQ+ people have sometimesfelt like theology is a sort of,
like, you know, like, a stick tohit them with. Whereas you two
both kind of, you've really goneout and found the elements in
(34:28):
different theologies that reallysort of, you know, match your
values, match what you believein.
Nigel Pearce (34:35):
And feel right to us, right to have that feeling
about God, that intimacy withGod and, and so our spiritual
life has all been about a walk,a walk with a divine. And so
there's a divine spark in all ofus that we have to nurture. And
so the mystics, for me, speakof, you know, St Francis of
(34:57):
Assisi and Theresa Avila, whohad this connection with God
that was so intimate and soloving. That that's how... And
you know, I always say everypreacher has really one sermon.
It may sound different, they mayuse a different text, but it's
one sermon. And mine's alwaysabout the intimacy with God that
(35:20):
each and every one has to have apersonal relationship with God
and, and so walk in thespiritual journey. I mean,
that's, that's really what wewant to help people do.
Milan Terlunen (35:31):
Does that resonate with you as well?
Lisa Pearce (35:33):
It really does. God is love. You just said it. God
is love. Anytime you seesomething in the world, all you
have to ask yourself is (35:40):
"Does that align with a God who is
love?" It's really quite simple.And that, that I think takes you
and gets you to the right place.
Milan Terlunen (35:56):
Well, Nigel and Lisa, thank you so much. It's
been wonderful.
Aya Labanieh (36:00):
[Music begins.] That's the end of the episode,
but it's not the end of theconversation. We'll now leave
you with a little more music toreflect on everything you've
heard.
Milan Terlunen (36:53):
We'd love to hear your response to this
episode. If you have thoughts orstories to share, please send an
email or, even better, a voicenote to
team@insacredspacespodcast.com
Aya Labanieh (37:09):
This podcast was produced by Olivia Branscum,
Colby King, Milan Terlunen andme, Aya Labanieh.
Colby King (37:17):
With musical compositions by Stone Butler and
technical support from Evan Liand Ana Maria Rodriguez,
Aya Labanieh (37:23):
Thanks to our speakers and to the church and
ballroom communities forinviting us into their spaces.
Thanks also to MarÃa GonzálezPendás and Chris Chang for their
mentorship, and to Humanities NYand Columbia's Heyman Center for
the Humanities for theirsupport.
Milan Terlunen (37:40):
And most of all, thank you for listening. [Music
ends.]
[Music begins.] Welcome to In Sacred Spaces, a
(00:03):
three-episode podcast series inwhich we visit spaces around New
York City that are sacredspecific communities. These
include historic Black churchesin Harlem as well as the Chelsea
Piers, a gathering place formembers of the ballroom scene.
There are many kinds of Blackchurches in the United States,
with hundreds of years ofhistory. Ballroom is community
of mostly queer and transperformers from Black and Latinx
(00:26):
backgrounds, originating inHarlem
Aya Labanieh (00:31):
Join us as we walk around these sacred spaces with
the people who love them. Wediscuss their personal journeys
with spirituality and how thespaces they've chosen to inhabit
connect to longer histories ofcivil rights, women's equality
and queer liberation.
Milan Terlunen (00:52):
We hope these conversations will connect with
your own experiences, whetheryou identify as LGBTQ+, as a
Christian or as part of anyother religious or spiritual
community - or none at all. Ifyou can, we encourage you to
listen to this podcast whilewalking around a place that is
sacred to you.
Colby King (01:15):
Our podcast team includes people with diverse
religious backgrounds and arange of racial, sexual and
gender identities. You can findout more about the team and the
project at our website,insacredspacespodcast.com.
Milan Terlunen (01:31):
We hope these episodes will inspire you to
reflect on your own uniquerelationship to spiritual
experience. Throughout eachepisode, we've included musical
interludes composed by StoneButler, that give you some
private moments to meditate onwhat you've heard.
Aya Labanieh (01:54):
For this episode, we're at Grace Congregational
Church of Harlem with PastorNigel Pearce and his wife Lisa
Pearce. Nigel and Lisa discusshow acting with love shapes
everything from their renovationof the church building to the
spiritual values of theircommunity.
We begin the conversationoutside the church on West 139th
(02:17):
Street, a quiet side street afew blocks away from where we
were for the first episode. It'sa morning in early summer, and
we're standing in front of alarge red brick building with
rounded windows, an old oak doorand a steep roof that rises high
above the surrounding houses.[Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (02:42):
So Nigel and Lisa, it's great to be here with
you, and we're out on the streetoutside of this building. So can
you tell us a bit about thisbuilding and a bit about the
church that is located here?
Nigel Pearce (03:00):
Okay, so you're situated right in Central
Harlem. And so Grace Churchstarted on 135th at the YMCA,
and they spent 10 years theresaving up $50,000, which I say
today is about three and a halfmillion dollars, to purchase, to
(03:20):
purchase this building.Remember, folks who were just,
you know, either out of slaveryor their parents were certainly
slaves with nothing, and wereable to put together $50,000 to
purchase this building and beginGrace Congregational Church, and
then celebrate here. 1923 iswhen they acquired, so next year
(03:44):
is our 100th anniversary here.
Milan Terlunen (03:49):
Yeah, so before we go inside, are there other
things that you know we shouldtalk about with this building?
Or I know the buildings aroundare also important to history of
this place?
Nigel Pearce (04:01):
Grace Church owns both buildings on both sides,
and so we've always providedhousing for folks, which has
provided additional income forthe church. So we've been
involved in what we callmoderate-income housing and
making sure people's living andenvironment, which is important
(04:23):
to people, right? A home is soimportant and vital to folks and
their lives. And so we wanted tomake sure that we preserve the
lives of those in thisneighborhood and keep rents at a
manageable level.
Milan Terlunen (04:35):
Yeah, because rents are increasing
dramatically, right?
Nigel Pearce (04:39):
Right. And even if you're on a living wage, $15 an
hour, you can afford to livenowhere in New York City. So it
is important that we find a wayto take care of people and curb
the housing issue andaffordability issue that we're
finding.
Milan Terlunen (05:00):
Lisa, is there anything else that you want to
say about the building, anythingabout the outside that...?
Lisa Pearce (05:08):
No, I think, I think, I guess, the most
important thing for me when Ifirst came to this church was -
and it wasn't that long ago,right? It was in 2016. I
thought (05:22):
it feels like home. I was expecting, I didn't know
what the church would look like.I, you know, had never, you
know, seen it before. And when Igot here, it felt like home. And
the reason it felt like home isbecause it's small. It's small.
I was expecting, you know, oneof these mega churches with lots
of people. It's Harlem. [Soundof road drilling in background.]
(05:44):
So when I came here, I thought,this is absolutely beautiful,
welcoming. Yeah, very much. So Ifelt, when I walked through the
doors, I felt, oh my gosh,there's this sense of peace and
tranquility, and that was reallyimportant.
Milan Terlunen (06:04):
I feel like the peace and tranquility right now
is being a little bit ruined bythe road repairs happening. [All
laugh.] Shall we continue thisin a more peaceful soundscape?
Aya Labanieh (06:19):
[Music begins.] We're now inside the church. We
(06:50):
feel small as we look up at theimposing roof. From below, in
one corner of the roof, we cansee some holes where the plaster
and wood have been broken away.[Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (07:09):
So we've come inside, and when I look up
towards the ceiling, I'm seeingsome areas where the, sort of,
the plaster has been brokenaway, and we can see the brick
and the kind of woodwork. Sowhat's, what's going on there?
Nigel Pearce (07:28):
So I apologize it looks a little disarray, because
after Sandy our slate rock wasshifted. And so we brought a
structural engineer. He said: not only do you need a new roof, (07:38):
undefined
but you need a whole newstructure to hold up the new
roof. And so we, I had toconvince the congregation that
we probably need to take thiswhole structure down and build a
new one. And so we have apicture of a new building, seven
storeys, which would allow us togo from eight units of
(07:59):
affordable housing to 42 unitsof affordable housing.
Milan Terlunen (08:02):
So the affordable housing in the
buildings next door to this,you'd be going from eight to 42
correct? It's a big jump!
Nigel Pearce (08:11):
It's a big jump, yeah. So we take down the
Lisa Pearce (08:12):
You know, I have to say, it has been a difficult
building next to us, we wouldexpand this space here, and then
we would go up seven storeys.And so you'll see the pieces
that have been cut away wereactually the demolition guys who
process,fussing. And I looked at her and
came here and started to see howthey were going to dismantle the
church. So those wereself-imposed, those things, and
(08:33):
you'll see others further up onthe balcony. But the rest of the
ceiling is because of the leaksthat we've had, and it's very
difficult to repair, very costlyto repair, I should say. So
we're going to be doing somerepairs because we didn't think
we'd be in this building aslong. We thought by this time we
would have been out andconstruction would have started.
(08:56):
But Landmark - we've gotlandmarked in the midst of our
plans, and so that has put us ona hold for a moment. And so
we're trying to work withLandmark to figure out, how do
we create a new church that fitsin but also allows us to be
financially well, as well?
I said (10:10):
isn't it beautiful, though? And I said to her
husband sees the church throughthe eyes of love, and love makes
even the things that arefalling, you know, in the
ceiling, love makes everythingbeautiful. And so, you know, I
(10:30):
look around and I see, you know,the issues, I... Clearly the
roof, you know... But it looksso incredibly beautiful, too.
Nigel Pearce (10:38):
Right.
Aya Labanieh (10:43):
[Music begins.] As we walk forward, we see a grand
(11:17):
piano ahead of us, and turningback, we see an organ with
gleaming pipes on a balconyabove. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (11:29):
So, so we've got...
Nigel Pearce (11:32):
We've got a baby grand here, and we've got an
organ, which the pipes are allin the balcony section. Yeah,
all still working. Very much. Soin fact, the guy's coming here
today to take a look at it. Butmusic was the centerpiece of
Grace Church. It was called theLittle Opera House of Harlem.
Opera House of Harlem. Becauseour pianist then, Dr Motley,
(11:55):
grew up with Dizzy Gillespie,Max Roach, Miles Davis, and he
played with all those folks. Andso Marian Anderson would come
and sing. Duke Ellington livedaround the corner. Hall Johnson
was a famous, or he put togethera lot of the Negro spirituals.
And he was very famous for that.And he trained our choir back
(12:17):
then in the day. So we had avery amazing, when I got here
there was about 30 people in ourchoir, and it was an amazing
choir that were veryprofessionally trained, and they
all came and had amazing voices.And you can hear the acoustics
in here. You almost don't need amicrophone that, you know, the
sound travels very well in thisroom.
Milan Terlunen (12:37):
Yeah. I mean, I feel like since we walked to the
front, I'm already hearing moreof an echo.
Nigel Pearce (12:42):
Yes.
Milan Terlunen (12:42):
That's clearly a design, right?
Nigel Pearce (12:44):
So people love to sing in this space, and so this
was a very important space, andespecially music in this, for
this church has always been verycenter...
Milan Terlunen (12:54):
Yeah, yeah.
Nigel Pearce (12:54):
Centerpiece!
Milan Terlunen (12:55):
Yeah.
Aya Labanieh (13:07):
[Music begins.] On this weekday, we're the only
ones inside the building, but itfeels like Nigel and Lisa are
picturing the church communitypast, present and future, all
(13:29):
gathered in this space. [Musicends.]
Milan Terlunen (13:38):
So, Lisa, you you mentioned, you know, looking
at this building with, you know,the eyes of love, and how that
transforms it. And I think, youknow, people might be a bit
surprised, just to kind of tohear that this church community
itself is, you know, wanting totake down this church and, you
(14:03):
know, build something new in itsplace. So that we're in this
space physically, you've beenpointing out all these kind of
beautiful, precious things aboutit, and at the same time, you
know, you're working towardstaking it down, building
something new
Nigel Pearce (14:18):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (14:19):
So...
Lisa Pearce (14:20):
What's that about?
Milan Terlunen (14:21):
Yeah, I'm just curious to hear a bit more about
that.
Lisa Pearce (14:24):
You know, I think... We want to continue to
exist, right? We want tocontinue to serve the community
and live out the GreatCommission. So part of it really
is about the survival of thechurch and the work that we do,
(14:47):
and unfortunately, where we areright now, we cannot sustain the
building. So we have to dosomething. We have to do
something, um...
Nigel Pearce (15:01):
Um, relevant...
Lisa Pearce (15:01):
And do more! Right?
Nigel Pearce (15:02):
Right.
Lisa Pearce (15:02):
We want to do more because there's so many needs
around us.
Nigel Pearce (15:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (15:07):
Well, I mean, and just concretely, you said
going from like eight affordableunits to 42 that's already doing
more in a really, you know,tangible...
Lisa Pearce (15:16):
... substantial way.
Nigel Pearce (15:17):
And building a church without pews, because we
could use this space in so manydifferent ways throughout the
week for the community. I knowwhen I first said it, the
congregation was like "off withyour head", but it made sense
when I took them to otherchurches, like 29th Street,
where they turned it into a dayfor lunch for folks from 11 to 2
(15:37):
and anybody can walk in, andthey serve 1800 lunches for
people, because they're able totake, there's no pews, they are
able to, you know, put tablesout and have people. So you can
have multi-functional, multiuses when you don't have fixed
furniture that really takes up alot of space, and you can do
really anything else with it.
Milan Terlunen (15:58):
Yeah. So, yeah, I'm hearing that, you know this,
this new church that you'rewanting to build, it could do
more for the community. It couldhave more functions. It could
serve more people more of thetime throughout the week.
Nigel Pearce (16:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (16:14):
Yeah... And maybe that also sort of, to come
back to this idea of, like, youknow, this idea of love, like,
there's, there's, you know,loving this building, loving
this place, but there is also,like, loving the people.
Colby King (16:30):
That's right, yeah. [Cell phone chime.] Right,
right.
Nigel Pearce (16:34):
Mmm-hmm.
Lisa Pearce (16:35):
Yeah... and sometimes, you know, you have to
make hard decisions based on,on, on that love, right?
Aya Labanieh (17:05):
[Music begins.] We continue walking forward between
the rows of wooden pews thathave stood here for many years,
but might not be here muchlonger. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (17:30):
So, I mean, can we talk a bit more about love,
you know, in a theologicalsense? So, you know, we've been
talking about some of the verykind of practical ways that you
can show love, like givingpeople affordable housing
Nigel Pearce (17:47):
Yeah.
Milan Terlunen (17:48):
But I think there is also something more
kind of immaterial, morespiritual, that, that love can
mean. So I'd love to hear, I'dlove to hear the two of you talk
a bit more about that.
Nigel Pearce (17:59):
Yeah I think one of the central sermons I
preached here early was (18:02):
love is a verb. And it talks about the
one where the woman, who was 18years bent over and Jesus saw
her. And so I talked about (18:11):
he saw her, he touched her, and he
spoke to her. And so loverequires those, sort of, three
components. Seeing people notfor who they are, but who they
can be. And so seeing the, youknow, we don't want to see with
all your warts and all yourblemishes, but who you really,
(18:32):
truly are is really on theinside. And so love requires us
to see people and see throughthe exterior and into their
hearts. But also touching peoplein a way that makes a profound
difference and change in theirlife.
Lisa Pearce (18:47):
And I'll tell you, I think I have to go back to our
first date. And the reason Ihave to go back there is
because...
Milan Terlunen (18:56):
Your first date with... Nigel?
Lisa Pearce (18:57):
With, with, with, yeah, with Pastor P. I had, you
know, I went down my list. [Alllaugh.] I went down my list
because, you know, the churchhas hurt so many people, so many
communities, and you know, Iwanted to understand where he
(19:17):
was theologically, and to ensurethat it aligned with my own
theology. And so I'll neverforget asking him how he felt
about the gay community, forexample. I have a dear friend
who is gay that I, that I grewup with from childhood, and I
(19:38):
said to him, I need tounderstand how you feel about
that, because I believe thatwhere the Bible says that "God
so loved the world", that thatmeant everybody. I have a nephew
who is transgender, and I'llnever forget when she came and
(19:58):
talked to me about what wasgoing on in her life, that she
now wanted me to refer to her asJason, and she explained
to say.
Nigel Pearce (20:07):
Right.
everything to me, and I lookedat him, and I said "Jason, a
rose by any other name wouldsmell as sweet", right?
Lisa Pearce (20:18):
And, you know, I think it's important for us to
be the people that God... thatwe believe that God has created
Milan Terlunen (20:29):
Yeah.
Lisa Pearce (20:30):
And so...
Nigel Pearce (20:34):
Cos she was checking off my list! [All
Lisa Pearce (20:34):
Hey, right, I had my checklist! And so, oh, the
Milan Terlunen (20:34):
You had a checklist...
laugh.]
Lisa Pearce (20:34):
You know, what does love mean to you?
other thing, of course, was Ilike to dance. So, you know,
Milan Terlunen (20:39):
You had the same list.
there are some traditions where,you know, that's a sin. So I
Nigel Pearce (20:42):
We had the same list. Yeah...
Lisa Pearce (20:42):
Yeah, what does love mean to you?
Nigel Pearce (20:44):
So I was smiling because she was checking off my
needed to understand where hewas there. And he was just
smiling the whole time.
list at the same time.
Lisa Pearce (21:02):
Yeah. I mean, you know, we're to love all of God's
creation.
Nigel Pearce (21:06):
Amen, amen.
Lisa Pearce (21:08):
It's incredibly important, yeah.
Milan Terlunen (21:10):
Well, and that story you were just telling
about your family member who'strans, like, it sounds like it
connects with what you weresaying earlier about like,
seeing people for who they areinside. And kind of, you know,
at least initially, if theoutside doesn't, doesn't match,
right, that, you know, you seethem the best way they can be.
Nigel Pearce (21:33):
Yeah, yeah.
Aya Labanieh (21:45):
[Music begins.] As we get close to the front, we
(22:12):
take care to avoid tripping overthe cables that run between
various microphones, lights,video cameras and a huge sound
mixing board. Since the pandemicbegan, this equipment has
allowed hundreds of people toattend the Sunday services at
Grace Church. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (22:32):
I wanted to ask a bit about womanist theology,
because I know that's somethingthat you know a lot about, have
a history with. And ReverendDerrick McQueen mentioned it
briefly in our previousconversation. But yeah, I would
love to hear a bit more, likefor people who don't know about
it, what is it and what's your,what's your history with it?
Lisa Pearce (22:56):
So when I went through seminary, it really was
when I was introduced towomanist theology. I worked with
the Reverend Dr Katie Cannon,who was an ethicist, a womanist
ethicist, and really started tounderstand... It really was a
response to Black theology,which was predominantly... it
(23:23):
rested and anchored in theexperiences of Black men,
feminist theology of whitewomen. So womanist theology
really was about centering theexperiences of Black women and
using that as the foundation andanchor upon which you, upon
(23:43):
which you live, live your lifeand live in the world. But it
also means and encompasses andincludes everyone, right? So it
doesn't matter who you are, andit's all about what we've really
been talking about, that it's aninclusive kind of theology that,
that loves everyone, and itreally is at the heart of the
(24:07):
way I think about my owntheology and, and the work that
we do in the church.
Milan Terlunen (24:14):
Can you spell that out a bit more just, so,
what does centering Black womendo to how we understand the love
that we've already been talkingabout?
Lisa Pearce (24:26):
Yeah, so when you think about the Black woman's
experiences in America, one ofthe things that we know is that
during slavery, families weretorn apart, and so Black women
found themselves in a spacewhere they had to embrace
(24:49):
children that may or may nothave been their own, right, and
that was at the heart ofbuilding community that we're
all here, you're all loved. Oneof the things that Dr Katie
Cannon does, she tells us, sheused to tell this beautiful
story about one of her ancestorswho, when slavery was abolished,
(25:09):
who went around to everyplantation, and she found her
children and said, "Yep, thatone is mine, and that one is
mine, and that one is mine", andthen embrace children whose
parents, you know, who were justkind of orphans. That's what
we've done. That's what wecontinue to do.
Milan Terlunen (25:29):
So, so not biologically hers but just
Lisa Pearce (25:30):
No, yeah, that's what we've done. That's what
anyone...
we've always done. Incommunities, when children
didn't have places to go andfood, we come together. I mean,
the Black church was at thecenter of everything that we
did, and Black women were justout there trying to make a
(25:50):
difference. And that all comesfrom a place of love. You know,
we've got to get there together,so everybody come and be a part
of this community of love.
Milan Terlunen (26:01):
But yeah, not, not a kind of, like, nice, fuzzy
love, like, it's a love thatreally is...
Nigel Pearce (26:08):
Right
Milan Terlunen (26:08):
... in a situation that is so terrible...
Lisa Pearce (26:11):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (26:11):
... you know, finding it even there.
Nigel Pearce (26:13):
And finding love even when you've been treated in
a very difficult and harshmanner.
Lisa Pearce (26:19):
Right.
Nigel Pearce (26:19):
How do you, where do you get that love to treat
others kind, still, when you'vebeen treated so harshly?
Aya Labanieh (27:11):
[Music begins.] We take a few steps up towards the
altar. Today it looks like anempty stage, but every Sunday
it's the focal point for music,ritual and prayer. [Music ends.]
Milan Terlunen (27:26):
So you mentioned that you both came from other
denominations, other kinds ofChristianity, before arriving
here. And I'm curious to hear,maybe specifically with this
idea of kind of love being socentral to to the theology here
(27:47):
and to the community here, youknow, how is that different from
other churches you've been apart of? Or maybe, how is some
of the things that you'vebrought from those earlier
churches to the community here?
Nigel Pearce (28:02):
So I've had a circuitous route, sort of, to...
[Laughter.] ... to pastoringGrace Church. But, you know, I
started out, grew up Catholic,which had a very, you know... I
almost saw God as this old whiteman waiting for you to do
something wrong. And then goingto the Pentecostal Church, which
was all about the Holy Spiritand speaking in tongues, and,
(28:24):
and just much more open andfree, but also alive. And then
two years of being a Baptistminister helped me to, you know,
I... And I got there because DrKing, and I could see what
social justice... And that madea difference, that you could
(28:45):
actually help people by, bypreaching and speaking to people
in a way that showed them a moreloving, more excellent way. And
so that's got me on the path,and then that led me to Gandhi
and his, his love, and how hewas able to transform a country
in India by, by, by non-violent,right, revolt. And, and that led
(29:10):
me to Sufism and, and Tagore andRumi. And so I ended up in an
interfaith seminary, whichyou...
Milan Terlunen (29:19):
So interfaith, not just Christian?
Nigel Pearce (29:21):
Right.
Milan Terlunen (29:21):
Okay.
Nigel Pearce (29:22):
So you practice Hinduism with a Hindu priest.
You go to Islam, Islam, and youpractice with a iman, and you
know the Jews, and we go to seea rabbi, and we spend time to
learn their religion. And thebelief there is that there's
only one divine and you havemany paths, right, which was
very different than I grew upwith in the Catholic sense,
(29:44):
where it was just Christians andnobody else. But here it was:
there was one divine and manypaths. And so for me, that was
much more appealing to me andmuch more loving that, you know,
everybody has access to thedivine. And that's really what
opened me up to the, more,concept of love and really a
(30:07):
much more kinder Christian faiththan I had before.
Milan Terlunen (30:13):
How about you, Lisa?
Lisa Pearce (30:16):
So I grew up in the Baptist tradition, and I grew up
in what's called a "fire andbrimstone" church. And I was
scared of God. I did not see Godas loving or any of those
things. And it's interesting,because I... and both of my,
(30:38):
both of my parents are pastors.My father recently passed away.
My mother's the pastor of achurch in Virginia. And so what
happened to me is, you know, Ihit that first rough patch in my
life, and it was just horriblypainful, and I found my way back
to God. But I had to deconstructeverything I had... I knew about
(31:03):
God, and reconstruct God in away that was more loving. And
it's, you know, the elders knew,I could see it on their faces. I
look back on my... And so theyknew something that I didn't
know, that I wasn't getting fromthe experience I had in the
church, and the reason that Ikept going back, obviously, I
(31:24):
didn't have any choice, really,but there was so much love
there. The action was there, youknow, my grandmother and my
aunties and everybody, so youfelt the love. But in the
pulpit, you know, a preacherwas, you know, telling us "you
gotta do this and don't do that,and you're going to hell if you
do this" and all of that stuff.So I've had a wonderfully
(31:52):
expansive definition of lovesince, since those you know,
since those days when I was achild.
Milan Terlunen (31:59):
You mentioned having a gay friend from
childhood. So was that alsosomething that sort of took a
while to kind of find thattheology that would...
Lisa Pearce (32:10):
Embrace, embrace him.
Milan Terlunen (32:11):
Yeah.
Lisa Pearce (32:12):
Right. So yeah and I, and that's another reason why
I was just like, "Who is thisGod over here?", because I loved
my friend, and I knew that Godloved him, right? But that
wasn't the God that was over atthe church that I was in. So,
(32:34):
you know, sometimes at one pointI said, "Oh my gosh, I feel like
I'm schizophrenic. There are allthese things that are, that
don't make any sense to me. Howdo I reconcile all of this so
that I, you know, I come outwhole?" So again, it was just,
it was a process.
Aya Labanieh (33:04):
[Music begins.] As we feel our time coming to an
(33:32):
end, we turn back to face thewhole church and watch the light
stream in from outside. [Musicends.]
Milan Terlunen (33:42):
So I mean, I feel like one big thing that
I've been getting from thisconversation is, like, that your
own theology is something thatyou yourself can, can, you know,
that it's a long journey toarrive at something that you
feel really happy with and thatmatches your values, and that,
(34:04):
you know... I think that maybe alot of people think that
theology is something that iskind of, like, given to them,
and you either accept it or youreject it. And maybe especially
LGBTQ+ people have sometimesfelt like theology is a sort of,
like, you know, like, a stick tohit them with. Whereas you two
both kind of, you've really goneout and found the elements in
(34:28):
different theologies that reallysort of, you know, match your
values, match what you believein.
Nigel Pearce (34:35):
And feel right to us, right to have that feeling
about God, that intimacy withGod and, and so our spiritual
life has all been about a walk,a walk with a divine. And so
there's a divine spark in all ofus that we have to nurture. And
so the mystics, for me, speakof, you know, St Francis of
(34:57):
Assisi and Theresa Avila, whohad this connection with God
that was so intimate and soloving. That that's how... And
you know, I always say everypreacher has really one sermon.
It may sound different, they mayuse a different text, but it's
one sermon. And mine's alwaysabout the intimacy with God that
(35:20):
each and every one has to have apersonal relationship with God
and, and so walk in thespiritual journey. I mean,
that's, that's really what wewant to help people do.
Milan Terlunen (35:31):
Does that resonate with you as well?
Lisa Pearce (35:33):
It really does. God is love. You just said it. God
is love. Anytime you seesomething in the world, all you
have to ask yourself is (35:40):
"Does that align with a God who is
love?" It's really quite simple.And that, that I think takes you
and gets you to the right place.
Milan Terlunen (35:56):
Well, Nigel and Lisa, thank you so much. It's
been wonderful.
Aya Labanieh (36:00):
[Music begins.] That's the end of the episode,
but it's not the end of theconversation. We'll now leave
you with a little more music toreflect on everything you've
heard.
Milan Terlunen (36:53):
We'd love to hear your response to this
episode. If you have thoughts orstories to share, please send an
email or, even better, a voicenote to
team@insacredspacespodcast.com
Aya Labanieh (37:09):
This podcast was produced by Olivia Branscum,
Colby King, Milan Terlunen andme, Aya Labanieh.
Colby King (37:17):
With musical compositions by Stone Butler and
technical support from Evan Liand Ana Maria Rodriguez,
Aya Labanieh (37:23):
Thanks to our speakers and to the church and
ballroom communities forinviting us into their spaces.
Thanks also to MarÃa GonzálezPendás and Chris Chang for their
mentorship, and to Humanities NYand Columbia's Heyman Center for
the Humanities for theirsupport.
Milan Terlunen (37:40):
And most of all, thank you for listening. [Music
ends.]
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