March 21, 2025 • 26 mins
Many companies face unnecessary complexity on a daily basis, wasting valuable time, adding to employees’ stress and chipping away at the bottom line.
Often, leaders will implement policies that aim to make employees lives easier, only to discover that nothing changes. And while workplace technology can help reduce complexity, the wrong tech, or even too much tech, can add to the problem instead of subtracting from it.
What steps can organizations take to eliminate wasteful processes and introduce more automation in the workplace? How does simplicity enhance your culture, employee well-being and your financial outlook?
Lisa Bodell, CEO of FutureThink, joins HR Break Room® podcast host Ariana Stark to answer these questions and discuss how:
- organizations can implement real change
- workplace simplicity gives companies a strategic advantage
- automation unlocks HR’s potential and improves the employee experience
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
HR Break Room is brought to you by Paycom,
empowering employees nationwide with HR
and payroll tech in one easy app.
Learn how Paycom simplifies business for your
entire workforce at Paycom.com.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the HR Break
Room, Paycom's podcast dedicated
to having quick conversations on the hot topics
(00:34):
in HR.
I'm your host, Ariana Stark.
Today, I'm joined by Lisa Bodell. Lisa
is the CEO of FutureThink
and bestselling author of Kill the
Company and Why Simple Wins.
Ranked among the top 50 speakers
worldwide, she motivates and inspires
leaders across organizations to
unlock their true potential and
(00:56):
find deeper fulfillment.
With her no-nonsense approach to simplification,
Lisa delivers radical insight
and actionable tools to fuel success.
In our conversation, we'll discuss unnecessary
complexity in the workplace, the cultural,
personal and strategic benefits of
workplace simplicity, the role automation
plays in unlocking HR's potential
(01:18):
and steps that organizations can
take to implement real change
that makes employees' lives easier.
With that, let's jump into the HR Break Room.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa.
-Thank you. I'm glad to be here. -Well, we're so
excited, so let's go ahead and jump right in. Are you ready?
All right, perfect.
Now before we get started, um,
(01:40):
how do you define unnecessary
complexity in the workplace? -Oh, I love that
question
because that's important, right? It's not about complexity,
it's unnecessary complexity. So
here's how I define it. Unnecessary
complexity
is work without the benefits.
So it, it's invisible waste
and we all know what that means, right? I
(02:01):
mean, because we experience it, it's the time sinks,
it's the things that drive you crazy, it's the things
that add no meaning or move you forward in
your job. That's what I mean by unnecessary
complexity. And I think all of us have
some unnecessary complexity. We know right
away that we could get rid of at work and our lives,
too. -Oh, absolutely. -Several
things come to mind,
right? I mean, it's easy. It's just, and that's really the
(02:22):
thing, which is there's so much that we can get
rid of. Now people just need the permission
to do it, right?-Right. No, that
makes sense.
Well, so what are some common problems
in the workplace that are caused by
unnecessary complexity?
-You know, I think, first of all, a lot of
complexity
is created with the best of intentions
because everyone's human, they want to move faster, especially
(02:44):
at work. They want to get things done and that's
how things get frankenstein,
and you know what I mean, you know, processes where
rather than really thinking through the process, we just add
on one more thing because it'll be faster and we can get it done
and then the next person inherits that and
so on and so on. And I, I think
what happens or the reason why complexity
just kind of compounds itself is
because,
(03:04):
um, we don't have time.
And we don't think that we have permission to
question work.
And so we have all these assumptions
that we carry around with us of "This is
how we're supposed to do it,"
right? So that's the way we've always done it. That's
such a common thing. Or I didn't know
I could question it.
And that's really what happens. If we could
start challenging our assumptions around work,
(03:26):
that's what simplicity lets us do, um,
we would get rid of a lot of that unnecessary
complexity that holds us back, and that's powerful.
-Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just the way
you described it, like frankenstein, you
know, having so many processes on
top of each other that you're, like, overcomplicating
it. -It's visual, too, and we all, the
thing that's so funny is that I think people listening,
(03:47):
they, they know it, right? They experience it.
It's like a visceral feeling,
um, but I think that's where a lot of really good
leadership can come in, you know, both
in HR and just across an organization
is giving people the permission to
question how
we work. And I, you know, I'll give you an example, actually,
of where this really
took hold. I was doing this project
(04:07):
at a publishing company
and
We were realizing there was all this unnecessary
complexity, and so I introduced one of our techniques
called kill a stupid rule, which everyone
loves and you get what it is, right? It's
about giving people permission to get rid of
stupid things.
And this publishing company,
when you ask their employees, "What are these
(04:27):
unnecessary complexities of these stupid
rules?" a theme emerged
quickly. Everyone hated
the MOR,
the monthly operating report. Now that's
not a rule, that's just a practice, right?
And I mean, it was like, you know, phones
at a concert, everyone like this when you said,
"Let's get rid of the MOR."
And what was so funny is that
(04:47):
the head of HR was at this session
and he stood up, it happened to be a he,
and he said, "All of you seem to really
dislike this MOR. It's just
unnecessary."
Loud applause, and he said,
"I created the MOR."
And so, you know, oh, they thought, "Oh, that's a
career limiting move. I shouldn't have done that." And
he said, "But it's so funny. I hate it, too.
(05:09):
I thought you guys liked it."
And one person actually raised their hand and said,
"You know, I do the monthly operating
report. I've now — I haven't sent it
in months. I'm just waiting to see who calls me
on it." He said, "No one's asked me about it."
So they realized just by having the conversation,
there's a lot of useless things and assumptions
that we probably can get rid of or streamline,
(05:30):
and that's powerful. You got our back.
-Absolutely. -The communication part is so key
there. It's key and people are more satisfied.
That's even the better benefit, which is there's this
like collective release of the shoulders.
They're just so happy that they can get rid
of something, right, and have that productivity
back where they maybe were doing this
just unnecessary little task, unnecessary
(05:51):
things.-Exactly, yeah.
OK, so, um, moving on,
um, how often do employees
typically
experience complexity in their day to day, would
you say?
-All right, let me ask you, so a scale of 0
to 100% of their time, how much, if you
ask people,
um, how much of your day is spent on
complexity? What do you think they would say?
(06:12):
-Oh, gosh. I don't know. I mean,
I could see people saying like 25%
or something, 75%.
-Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I'll ask people in
audiences or, you know,
different companies that we go into
how much complexity do you experience
and
the scale is, you know, it's either.
(06:33):
We usually say, "Not often, often,
very often, so often, dear God,
please make it stop," kind of thing, and
everyone's on the upper end of that scale,
and there's a lot of research that supports
it. There's, um, there's a great
research study that was done from Deloitte University
and people spend,
see if this resonates with you, 45%
of their time in meetings.
(06:55):
Over 30% in email. I
actually thought the email would be higher,
um, but the data was only during working
hours, by the way, and most people do their email
after working hours.
Um, there was another, what are we up
to 70%, uh, almost 20%
on unnecessary work,
which
I think a lot of meetings and emails are also unnecessary
(07:16):
and only 10% was spent on meaningful
things, and that's, like, that's such a red
flag, right? I mean, how many people are hired
for their meeting or email abilities? I don't
think anybody.
You know, were you ever asked when you were being
interviewed, "Tell me the best meeting you ever ran."
Or, "Show me the best email you've ever
sent," but it sucks up so much of our time
and it's, it's worth getting rid of and actually improving
(07:38):
because it would really make people happier at work.
-Absolutely, yeah. I'm just thinking about all
the, you know,
different passwords that technology has
brought into the workforce
and having different, you know, logs and
different platforms and everything just
kind of complicates it with the best of intentions,
but frankenstein's over time.
-Absolutely. -Well,
(07:59):
now speaking of technology,
technology does obviously play a huge part
in employees' lives.
So how can too much
technology, kind of like I mentioned,
um, create that
unnecessary complexity?-I get
asked this question a lot, right? Because the
holy grail was technology is going to solve
everything, but the answer is, if you
(08:20):
think about has technology helped us or hurt
us, the answer is yes.
So it, it all depends, like most
things, how you use it. So
I mean, I don't know about you, but
I can't not have my phone
because so much is at my fingertips. It's
accessible, it's centralized in one place. There's
so many apps. I can do so many things. I have so much
(08:40):
information
at my fingertips, but as I'm describing
it, notice the words I'm using is
so much
more.
So it also adds,
so we have to be careful. It's
not just about having technology to add more,
it's to help create space and subtract
too, right? So
the best technology or the best leaders
(09:00):
make sure
just because you can have access to lots
of technologies doesn't mean you shouldn't eventually
look at it and consolidate.
Just because you have access to so much
more data
doesn't mean that you should all of a sudden go from measuring
10 KPIs to 50,
which is very common, by the way. Just because
you can doesn't mean you should,
and we have to make sure that we use it to streamline,
(09:23):
not just do more.
-Absolutely. I think I really like what you said
there, too, streamlining and consolidating.
That's such a big piece because
you maybe need all these functions
or you need all these things, but,
you know, being able to consolidate and
just, uh, combine them into
one, um, easy-to-access
(09:43):
platform, one
software where you're not having to go
hunting for things and
writing interface,
understandable.
-Well, you know what you're saying is, is interesting, right?
So it's having it all in one place,
right? So the idea isn't just having
a lot,
it's making it usable. It's not the what,
it's the how.
(10:04):
And that's really what we're talking about.
Should you use technology? Yes.
"How" is really what we need leaders to think
through. -So from your research, um,
what are the cultural and
personal benefits of workplace
simplicity?
-There's so many. There's so many. Well, the obvious
ones, and this is usually what people think of
first, are the financial.
(10:24):
And so, let's start there because you're gonna save money,
you're gonna save time, you're gonna save,
I mean, upwards of millions of dollars,
hundreds of thousands of hours of time,
uh, you are able if you operate with
simplicity.
To
charge a price premium for your products, they estimate
6% higher price or more
because customers realize you value
(10:45):
their time. I mean, I know that. I mean, I'll pay
a little bit more if I can do something faster,
better, because it saves me
time
and that saves me money.
So you can charge more money. Also, companies
that operate with simplicity, their
stock outperforms
their peers by over 200%. So
it's, it's huge in terms of financial
benefits,
(11:06):
but I really — I caution people
to not just think of it that way because
complexity,
it's not just a productivity
drain it's a, uh, it's
a morality drain,
it's a, it's a cultural drain. So the other
benefits that operating with simplicity
have that are surprising are,
um, it's cultural
(11:27):
and that's really interesting, right? So people
are more engaged,
they are 60% more likely
to say they do meaningful work
and here's the one I love the most is that they are
95% more likely to
trust their leadership.
Because things are transparent,
right? It's confident, it's clear.
So cultural benefits are huge. The
(11:48):
final one I'll tell you that's really interesting,
especially for
this audience, is the health and
personal benefits.
The well-being that simplicity creates
is, it's shocking. We are in an epidemic
right now where
not just work is broken, but so are people
as a result,
and they are suffering in terms of high
levels of stress and incredibly all time
(12:09):
high levels of burnout.
If you operate with simplicity, the studies show
you cut burnout in half.
So people stay at their jobs because they're happier,
they're more engaged, and they're less stressed.
So let's get beyond just the financial
and realize that there's a lot of deep
HR related benefits that come
from simplifying. Well, now most
(12:29):
of us have experienced a workplace
where leaders can maybe implement
policies that are aimed at making employees'
lives easier,
but maybe nothing changes. So what
pitfalls or traps do
leaders face and fall into
when, um, they're trying to prevent
or reduce that complexity. It's a good
(12:50):
question,
because I know so many people have said, you
know, it's with the best of intentions that I tried something
and it had this kind of like unnecessary
impact.
Um, there's a trap that people fall into.
And so it's, again, because we're human.
So let me tell you some of the, I guess they're cultural
norms that we fall into. I call it the
complexity trap that
we should think about as leaders to escape.
(13:12):
Um, and, or I — I think as HR
leaders to think about how we change our
culture. So first of all, one of
the things that happens in organizations
is that
we confuse being organized with
being simplified.
And it's not the same thing, right? I
use the analogy where, you know, Marie Kondo,
the Japanese closet organizer everyone knows who
brings you joy by getting your closet organized,
(13:35):
her magic isn't in organizing all your stuff.
Her magic is getting rid of
what isn't necessary, right? So then what's left
is accessible,
usable and makes you happy.
And I joke with people that, you know, I'm
not saying you're going to look in your inbox every day
and go, you know, "Does this email bring me joy?"
because it won't, probably. But it's
(13:55):
about, you know, making sure that there are things
that you can get rid of that just bog you down,
so you can make space for the things that you were hired
to do in the first place. So
being organized isn't necessarily
being simplified, right? You can't organize
your way out of too much stuff.
-Right, right. -Um, the other thing
is
that we build too much value
(14:15):
on addition
and not subtraction.
So what I mean by that is, I
mean, think about it, every job you've ever been at,
you are rewarded for more.
For managing more people running
a bigger P&L, more products and services, more,
even if those things have outlived their time.
And so then when people complain about,
and rightfully so, too many priorities,
(14:37):
we wonder why
because being busy and having more is what we promote
people on, we bonus people on. We have
to start building in subtraction
and it's very powerful. I
see a lot of organizations building in,
um, processes called Stop It
where
they commit to all the things they're going to do
for a project, but also, they commit to the things they
(14:58):
will also stop doing and get rid of
so they can make the space for things to happen
that gets them out of the trap.
And the final thing I'll say is I think
another part of the complexity trap is
we are addicted to doing.
Overthinking thinking is a daring
act, right? I mean, how, how many people, how
much do you wish
you could have more time to think at work,
(15:20):
right? We, we all do.
And — but I think
we,
we perceive thinking as lazy. Isn't
that interesting?
If you ask somebody, like if you went to their office
and you said,
um, "Hey, can I ask you a question?" And you
caught them staring out the window.
And they said, "I'm sorry, I was, I was just thinking."
(15:40):
Most people would look at that person and go, "Must
be nice." Like, "I wish I could just sit
there and think all day."
But we want to have time to think, so we really
have to build in the fact that thinking is
important
and we have to make space for it, for innovation
to happen.
So doing is important but
so is thinking.
Simplification will help us do that.
(16:00):
So
organized, not simplified, right? That's
really, really important. Making sure we're
not just adding but subtracting and building in
time to think,
not just do. That'll help us move
forward.
-That is so important. And
having all of these, you know, little tasks
or things that are
taking up our time and bogging us down
doesn't allow for that time
(16:22):
and that space to think or to
prioritize, you know, work smarter, not
harder, you know, it's like we're working harder, not
smarter by
having so many different, uh, little
tasks or manual things that we have to do all
the time at work. Whereas, um,
you know, we can
leverage software, leverage
technology to help
clear up that space
(16:43):
and give us that time back. -And we know people
You know, when you, when you think about using software, for
example, that's, that goes back to that question you
asked earlier,
you know, as technology, how — what role does it play in
complexity or simplicity? Well, great
technology aids simplicity and creates the
space for you to do more meaningful work,
right? Not be busy. And so
it, what's great about — so
(17:04):
better software, better technology, better
work is that
simplicity allows good people
to thrive.
And the people that are not as
good at their job, right, and they hide
behind complexity, they're exposed. You
can't do that anymore.
And so really the, the best people rise
to the top with the right tools and the
right culture.
(17:24):
-Wow. Well, thank you for breaking that down and
sharing that with us. So now I want to talk a little
bit about,
um, your book. So obviously, there is that
common theme that, like we've been talking about, that,
um, simplicity not only enhances
processes, but it makes
the final product more impactful.
So do you mind talking a little bit more about that?
-Yeah, I,
(17:45):
we always think that, um,
value is more.
The value can also be less
focused,
meaningful, and so what I mean by that is
the best innovation comes often
from constraint
or from less because people are overwhelmed
and they just want a product that gives
them exactly what they need,
right? They're overwhelmed. Just, just tell me what
(18:07):
I need. So for example, I love the
example of, um,
you know, stemless wine glasses.
-Yes. -So that is a multibillion-dollar
industry that when first suggested
getting rid of the stem on the glass, um,
was just
regarded as a horrible idea because
wine's supposed to be exclusive. There's a certain
way that you hold the glass and getting rid of the stem
(18:28):
is, it's very pedestrian and mundane.
Uh, those types of glasses and wine
consumption took off because it made it more accessible
to people, right? The glasses were more durable,
they weren't breaking as much because they got rid
of something.
Um, kids, you know, when you see the kids with
balanced bikes that don't have pedals,
that has been the best way to teach kids
how to ride bikes because we got rid of the pedals
(18:50):
that got in the way to teach them to
balance. You focused on what was more important.
And that's, that's just a great
anecdote for innovation, simplicity,
creates space for meaning, it drives
value and allows you to really
focus on what's truly important.
That's when innovation takes off. -Those
are such great examples of
(19:11):
creating that space for
what matters. Like you said, just taking
away the, you know, unnecessary parts
or the things that are a distraction.
Um, and just getting right to the point. That's
great. -But think about it at work, think about it.
so, um, it's contracts that don't have to
be 20 pages, they're 10 or they're
in better language. It's processes where
(19:32):
you take unnecessary steps
out. It's software that consolidates or
has an easy user interface and
gets rid of
unnecessary buttons and and ways
that we interact with it,
so people do things faster. It's, it's
a collective relief when you simplify.
-Absolutely.
Now, do you have any examples, um,
any, uh, ways that simplicity
(19:54):
can give,
um, companies a more strategic
advantage when it is applied like that
as a whole to a company? You know, maybe
not just, you know, a team level, but
when it's,
you know, like we talked about, a software or
something like that.
-Simplicity allows people to focus
and it gives them a competitive, a strategic advantage,
right? So it's not just about that you
(20:16):
save money on the bottom line, you will,
but really what it is in a world that is just
moving so quickly, it gives you speed
because you can focus on what matters. You
can really figure out what are the features and functions
that people really want and you make those the
best,
right? It's not about doing everything it's about doing what
matters
and so what I think is really
interesting is that.
(20:36):
Let's look at the companies that actually simplified
and they didn't just compete
better but they completely transformed
industries.
So when you think about it,
Uber
challenged assumptions and they
completely transformed how we use
transportation. I mean, it, it is
stunning
(20:56):
how much people use that organization,
right? Because they completely simplify.
They challenged every assumption around taxi cabs.
Airbnb, it's simple to get a place to stay and
it goes on and on and on. But the, the
point is, is that
there are organizations, they didn't just use simplicity
to compete better, they completely changed
the game.
And that's what I think is so important,
(21:17):
is less can help you focus
and actually beat people when they're least expecting
it. That's power.
-So now that we've established
why workplace simplicity is so
important, what steps can
leaders
take to really simplify
their processes in their organizations?
-There's so, there's a framework I use because
(21:37):
I could give you a million examples of how you could
do it, but
the simplest thing to think about is three E's.
You want to eliminate it, so we,
we start by eliminating, and I'll explain it. Then
we need to embed it into the culture
because we need people to feel that they are
allowed,
empowered and can move without
fear, and I'll explain that.
(21:57):
And then we have to empower
employees to do it over time, so
the eliminates pretty easy, you
know, we can eliminate all kinds of stupid
things that we all know, but
complexity is like a weed, it grows back,
so we have to constantly build that in. That's where you
embed it into the culture. We expect
you to stop doing things. We
(22:18):
expect you to question work. That's
where it really takes off as part of the everyday
work, right? It won't grow back and
create another frankenstein process,
but the real benefit comes
with power.
So the thing I would say about people
wanting to simplify is
don't just get rid of things, don't just tell
people they can do it, but empower them
(22:39):
by modeling the behavior
and showing them that it's OK to
get rid of stuff because that doesn't just take
away friction.
It takes away fear, and
that is really key with
simplifying. The reason a lot of complexity stays
is because
people are afraid. They don't want to
get something wrong, they don't want to get rid of something
(22:59):
that would get them fired,
right? So by giving them the permission and
then showing people how to do it, like
to say no to meetings or whatever it is,
then people really get on board and
they feel empowered to make it a long-term
part of how they work. -You know, we
discussed earlier how simplicity makes
our work more impactful.
So what role does automation
(23:20):
play in unlocking HR's
full potential? -Well it's, it's huge.
Now there's a lot of things within HR right now
that are still manual processes,
um, you know, different software
and groups they don't talk to one another.
So being able to have a single place
that can automate tasks,
um, that unlock time for them to do more
meaningful work, to focus on more strategic
(23:42):
things. And, you know, the phrase we hear so
much working with — I work a lot with HR
and L&D leaders, you know, as a having
a a training and simplification business,
um, getting them a seat at the table.
You know, if all we're doing is doing tactical things,
you can't do strategic things
and I think automating so
many processes is going to move them away
(24:02):
from, um, checking the boxes, doing
reports, you know, being seen as managing a payroll,
for example, and actually being able to
do something strategic with it.
So I think that's the difference. It's not just about
inputting the data, it's the insights that go
along with it. That's what automation will help them
with. -Absolutely. Well,
now before we wrap up on this topic, um,
do you have any final thoughts?
(24:24):
-I, I have a lot of final thoughts on it. I
think, you know,
it's such an important topic for people,
um, and it seems so simple, but
we don't give ourselves permission to do it and I
would say, you know, it's really time
for people, for us to stop fixing
people
to do more work.
And start fixing work to
better leverage our people
(24:46):
and that's a really important mind shift, right?
Because so many of us think,
you know, "I think I'm organized. Why am I not getting it
right? How come everyone else is doing it?" And the reality
is people are struggling
and they think there's something wrong with them.
And I think as HR
professionals and as leaders,
what we can do again it's not just
fixing people to do more
(25:07):
work,
it's about really thinking about the systems
and the approach and the culture we have around
work so we can really let them do
what they were hired to do in the first place
because that's what HR is really good at.
-Well, thank you so much for joining, uh, HR
Break Room today. It was great.
-Yes, wonderful conversation.
Such a pleasure.-Thank you. I hope we'll go forth and simplify.
(25:27):
-Absolutely. Well, thank you,
um, and thank you listeners for joining the HR Break
Room. Today, we talked about achieving workplace
simplicity through automation.
Now with Paycom's truly single HR
and payroll software,
organizations can unlock full-solution
automation.
Paycom automates payroll, time off
decision-making and
every time-consuming task in between
(25:49):
to simplify life for you and
your employees.
Now to learn more about Paycom's
full-solution automation, visit Paycom.com
today. Thank you for tuning in, and we hope
you visit the HR Break Room again soon.
Be sure to follow and subscribe to HR
Break Room on Spotify, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen.
(26:10):
For more episodes, visit HRbreakroom.com
or follow us on social media. Thanks for
tuning into this episode and we can't wait
for you to join us again inside the HR
Break Room.
HR Break Room is brought to you by Paycom,
empowering employees nationwide with HR
and payroll tech in one easy app.
Learn how Paycom simplifies business for your
entire workforce at Paycom.com.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the HR Break
Room, Paycom's podcast dedicated
to having quick conversations on the hot topics
(00:34):
in HR.
I'm your host, Ariana Stark.
Today, I'm joined by Lisa Bodell. Lisa
is the CEO of FutureThink
and bestselling author of Kill the
Company and Why Simple Wins.
Ranked among the top 50 speakers
worldwide, she motivates and inspires
leaders across organizations to
unlock their true potential and
(00:56):
find deeper fulfillment.
With her no-nonsense approach to simplification,
Lisa delivers radical insight
and actionable tools to fuel success.
In our conversation, we'll discuss unnecessary
complexity in the workplace, the cultural,
personal and strategic benefits of
workplace simplicity, the role automation
plays in unlocking HR's potential
(01:18):
and steps that organizations can
take to implement real change
that makes employees' lives easier.
With that, let's jump into the HR Break Room.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Lisa.
-Thank you. I'm glad to be here. -Well, we're so
excited, so let's go ahead and jump right in. Are you ready?
All right, perfect.
Now before we get started, um,
(01:40):
how do you define unnecessary
complexity in the workplace? -Oh, I love that
question
because that's important, right? It's not about complexity,
it's unnecessary complexity. So
here's how I define it. Unnecessary
complexity
is work without the benefits.
So it, it's invisible waste
and we all know what that means, right? I
(02:01):
mean, because we experience it, it's the time sinks,
it's the things that drive you crazy, it's the things
that add no meaning or move you forward in
your job. That's what I mean by unnecessary
complexity. And I think all of us have
some unnecessary complexity. We know right
away that we could get rid of at work and our lives,
too. -Oh, absolutely. -Several
things come to mind,
right? I mean, it's easy. It's just, and that's really the
(02:22):
thing, which is there's so much that we can get
rid of. Now people just need the permission
to do it, right?-Right. No, that
makes sense.
Well, so what are some common problems
in the workplace that are caused by
unnecessary complexity?
-You know, I think, first of all, a lot of
complexity
is created with the best of intentions
because everyone's human, they want to move faster, especially
(02:44):
at work. They want to get things done and that's
how things get frankenstein,
and you know what I mean, you know, processes where
rather than really thinking through the process, we just add
on one more thing because it'll be faster and we can get it done
and then the next person inherits that and
so on and so on. And I, I think
what happens or the reason why complexity
just kind of compounds itself is
because,
(03:04):
um, we don't have time.
And we don't think that we have permission to
question work.
And so we have all these assumptions
that we carry around with us of "This is
how we're supposed to do it,"
right? So that's the way we've always done it. That's
such a common thing. Or I didn't know
I could question it.
And that's really what happens. If we could
start challenging our assumptions around work,
(03:26):
that's what simplicity lets us do, um,
we would get rid of a lot of that unnecessary
complexity that holds us back, and that's powerful.
-Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just the way
you described it, like frankenstein, you
know, having so many processes on
top of each other that you're, like, overcomplicating
it. -It's visual, too, and we all, the
thing that's so funny is that I think people listening,
(03:47):
they, they know it, right? They experience it.
It's like a visceral feeling,
um, but I think that's where a lot of really good
leadership can come in, you know, both
in HR and just across an organization
is giving people the permission to
question how
we work. And I, you know, I'll give you an example, actually,
of where this really
took hold. I was doing this project
(04:07):
at a publishing company
and
We were realizing there was all this unnecessary
complexity, and so I introduced one of our techniques
called kill a stupid rule, which everyone
loves and you get what it is, right? It's
about giving people permission to get rid of
stupid things.
And this publishing company,
when you ask their employees, "What are these
(04:27):
unnecessary complexities of these stupid
rules?" a theme emerged
quickly. Everyone hated
the MOR,
the monthly operating report. Now that's
not a rule, that's just a practice, right?
And I mean, it was like, you know, phones
at a concert, everyone like this when you said,
"Let's get rid of the MOR."
And what was so funny is that
(04:47):
the head of HR was at this session
and he stood up, it happened to be a he,
and he said, "All of you seem to really
dislike this MOR. It's just
unnecessary."
Loud applause, and he said,
"I created the MOR."
And so, you know, oh, they thought, "Oh, that's a
career limiting move. I shouldn't have done that." And
he said, "But it's so funny. I hate it, too.
(05:09):
I thought you guys liked it."
And one person actually raised their hand and said,
"You know, I do the monthly operating
report. I've now — I haven't sent it
in months. I'm just waiting to see who calls me
on it." He said, "No one's asked me about it."
So they realized just by having the conversation,
there's a lot of useless things and assumptions
that we probably can get rid of or streamline,
(05:30):
and that's powerful. You got our back.
-Absolutely. -The communication part is so key
there. It's key and people are more satisfied.
That's even the better benefit, which is there's this
like collective release of the shoulders.
They're just so happy that they can get rid
of something, right, and have that productivity
back where they maybe were doing this
just unnecessary little task, unnecessary
(05:51):
things.-Exactly, yeah.
OK, so, um, moving on,
um, how often do employees
typically
experience complexity in their day to day, would
you say?
-All right, let me ask you, so a scale of 0
to 100% of their time, how much, if you
ask people,
um, how much of your day is spent on
complexity? What do you think they would say?
(06:12):
-Oh, gosh. I don't know. I mean,
I could see people saying like 25%
or something, 75%.
-Yeah, you know, it's interesting. So I'll ask people in
audiences or, you know,
different companies that we go into
how much complexity do you experience
and
the scale is, you know, it's either.
(06:33):
We usually say, "Not often, often,
very often, so often, dear God,
please make it stop," kind of thing, and
everyone's on the upper end of that scale,
and there's a lot of research that supports
it. There's, um, there's a great
research study that was done from Deloitte University
and people spend,
see if this resonates with you, 45%
of their time in meetings.
(06:55):
Over 30% in email. I
actually thought the email would be higher,
um, but the data was only during working
hours, by the way, and most people do their email
after working hours.
Um, there was another, what are we up
to 70%, uh, almost 20%
on unnecessary work,
which
I think a lot of meetings and emails are also unnecessary
(07:16):
and only 10% was spent on meaningful
things, and that's, like, that's such a red
flag, right? I mean, how many people are hired
for their meeting or email abilities? I don't
think anybody.
You know, were you ever asked when you were being
interviewed, "Tell me the best meeting you ever ran."
Or, "Show me the best email you've ever
sent," but it sucks up so much of our time
and it's, it's worth getting rid of and actually improving
(07:38):
because it would really make people happier at work.
-Absolutely, yeah. I'm just thinking about all
the, you know,
different passwords that technology has
brought into the workforce
and having different, you know, logs and
different platforms and everything just
kind of complicates it with the best of intentions,
but frankenstein's over time.
-Absolutely. -Well,
(07:59):
now speaking of technology,
technology does obviously play a huge part
in employees' lives.
So how can too much
technology, kind of like I mentioned,
um, create that
unnecessary complexity?-I get
asked this question a lot, right? Because the
holy grail was technology is going to solve
everything, but the answer is, if you
(08:20):
think about has technology helped us or hurt
us, the answer is yes.
So it, it all depends, like most
things, how you use it. So
I mean, I don't know about you, but
I can't not have my phone
because so much is at my fingertips. It's
accessible, it's centralized in one place. There's
so many apps. I can do so many things. I have so much
(08:40):
information
at my fingertips, but as I'm describing
it, notice the words I'm using is
so much
more.
So it also adds,
so we have to be careful. It's
not just about having technology to add more,
it's to help create space and subtract
too, right? So
the best technology or the best leaders
(09:00):
make sure
just because you can have access to lots
of technologies doesn't mean you shouldn't eventually
look at it and consolidate.
Just because you have access to so much
more data
doesn't mean that you should all of a sudden go from measuring
10 KPIs to 50,
which is very common, by the way. Just because
you can doesn't mean you should,
and we have to make sure that we use it to streamline,
(09:23):
not just do more.
-Absolutely. I think I really like what you said
there, too, streamlining and consolidating.
That's such a big piece because
you maybe need all these functions
or you need all these things, but,
you know, being able to consolidate and
just, uh, combine them into
one, um, easy-to-access
(09:43):
platform, one
software where you're not having to go
hunting for things and
writing interface,
understandable.
-Well, you know what you're saying is, is interesting, right?
So it's having it all in one place,
right? So the idea isn't just having
a lot,
it's making it usable. It's not the what,
it's the how.
(10:04):
And that's really what we're talking about.
Should you use technology? Yes.
"How" is really what we need leaders to think
through. -So from your research, um,
what are the cultural and
personal benefits of workplace
simplicity?
-There's so many. There's so many. Well, the obvious
ones, and this is usually what people think of
first, are the financial.
(10:24):
And so, let's start there because you're gonna save money,
you're gonna save time, you're gonna save,
I mean, upwards of millions of dollars,
hundreds of thousands of hours of time,
uh, you are able if you operate with
simplicity.
To
charge a price premium for your products, they estimate
6% higher price or more
because customers realize you value
(10:45):
their time. I mean, I know that. I mean, I'll pay
a little bit more if I can do something faster,
better, because it saves me
time
and that saves me money.
So you can charge more money. Also, companies
that operate with simplicity, their
stock outperforms
their peers by over 200%. So
it's, it's huge in terms of financial
benefits,
(11:06):
but I really — I caution people
to not just think of it that way because
complexity,
it's not just a productivity
drain it's a, uh, it's
a morality drain,
it's a, it's a cultural drain. So the other
benefits that operating with simplicity
have that are surprising are,
um, it's cultural
(11:27):
and that's really interesting, right? So people
are more engaged,
they are 60% more likely
to say they do meaningful work
and here's the one I love the most is that they are
95% more likely to
trust their leadership.
Because things are transparent,
right? It's confident, it's clear.
So cultural benefits are huge. The
(11:48):
final one I'll tell you that's really interesting,
especially for
this audience, is the health and
personal benefits.
The well-being that simplicity creates
is, it's shocking. We are in an epidemic
right now where
not just work is broken, but so are people
as a result,
and they are suffering in terms of high
levels of stress and incredibly all time
(12:09):
high levels of burnout.
If you operate with simplicity, the studies show
you cut burnout in half.
So people stay at their jobs because they're happier,
they're more engaged, and they're less stressed.
So let's get beyond just the financial
and realize that there's a lot of deep
HR related benefits that come
from simplifying. Well, now most
(12:29):
of us have experienced a workplace
where leaders can maybe implement
policies that are aimed at making employees'
lives easier,
but maybe nothing changes. So what
pitfalls or traps do
leaders face and fall into
when, um, they're trying to prevent
or reduce that complexity. It's a good
(12:50):
question,
because I know so many people have said, you
know, it's with the best of intentions that I tried something
and it had this kind of like unnecessary
impact.
Um, there's a trap that people fall into.
And so it's, again, because we're human.
So let me tell you some of the, I guess they're cultural
norms that we fall into. I call it the
complexity trap that
we should think about as leaders to escape.
(13:12):
Um, and, or I — I think as HR
leaders to think about how we change our
culture. So first of all, one of
the things that happens in organizations
is that
we confuse being organized with
being simplified.
And it's not the same thing, right? I
use the analogy where, you know, Marie Kondo,
the Japanese closet organizer everyone knows who
brings you joy by getting your closet organized,
(13:35):
her magic isn't in organizing all your stuff.
Her magic is getting rid of
what isn't necessary, right? So then what's left
is accessible,
usable and makes you happy.
And I joke with people that, you know, I'm
not saying you're going to look in your inbox every day
and go, you know, "Does this email bring me joy?"
because it won't, probably. But it's
(13:55):
about, you know, making sure that there are things
that you can get rid of that just bog you down,
so you can make space for the things that you were hired
to do in the first place. So
being organized isn't necessarily
being simplified, right? You can't organize
your way out of too much stuff.
-Right, right. -Um, the other thing
is
that we build too much value
(14:15):
on addition
and not subtraction.
So what I mean by that is, I
mean, think about it, every job you've ever been at,
you are rewarded for more.
For managing more people running
a bigger P&L, more products and services, more,
even if those things have outlived their time.
And so then when people complain about,
and rightfully so, too many priorities,
(14:37):
we wonder why
because being busy and having more is what we promote
people on, we bonus people on. We have
to start building in subtraction
and it's very powerful. I
see a lot of organizations building in,
um, processes called Stop It
where
they commit to all the things they're going to do
for a project, but also, they commit to the things they
(14:58):
will also stop doing and get rid of
so they can make the space for things to happen
that gets them out of the trap.
And the final thing I'll say is I think
another part of the complexity trap is
we are addicted to doing.
Overthinking thinking is a daring
act, right? I mean, how, how many people, how
much do you wish
you could have more time to think at work,
(15:20):
right? We, we all do.
And — but I think
we,
we perceive thinking as lazy. Isn't
that interesting?
If you ask somebody, like if you went to their office
and you said,
um, "Hey, can I ask you a question?" And you
caught them staring out the window.
And they said, "I'm sorry, I was, I was just thinking."
(15:40):
Most people would look at that person and go, "Must
be nice." Like, "I wish I could just sit
there and think all day."
But we want to have time to think, so we really
have to build in the fact that thinking is
important
and we have to make space for it, for innovation
to happen.
So doing is important but
so is thinking.
Simplification will help us do that.
(16:00):
So
organized, not simplified, right? That's
really, really important. Making sure we're
not just adding but subtracting and building in
time to think,
not just do. That'll help us move
forward.
-That is so important. And
having all of these, you know, little tasks
or things that are
taking up our time and bogging us down
doesn't allow for that time
(16:22):
and that space to think or to
prioritize, you know, work smarter, not
harder, you know, it's like we're working harder, not
smarter by
having so many different, uh, little
tasks or manual things that we have to do all
the time at work. Whereas, um,
you know, we can
leverage software, leverage
technology to help
clear up that space
(16:43):
and give us that time back. -And we know people
You know, when you, when you think about using software, for
example, that's, that goes back to that question you
asked earlier,
you know, as technology, how — what role does it play in
complexity or simplicity? Well, great
technology aids simplicity and creates the
space for you to do more meaningful work,
right? Not be busy. And so
it, what's great about — so
(17:04):
better software, better technology, better
work is that
simplicity allows good people
to thrive.
And the people that are not as
good at their job, right, and they hide
behind complexity, they're exposed. You
can't do that anymore.
And so really the, the best people rise
to the top with the right tools and the
right culture.
(17:24):
-Wow. Well, thank you for breaking that down and
sharing that with us. So now I want to talk a little
bit about,
um, your book. So obviously, there is that
common theme that, like we've been talking about, that,
um, simplicity not only enhances
processes, but it makes
the final product more impactful.
So do you mind talking a little bit more about that?
-Yeah, I,
(17:45):
we always think that, um,
value is more.
The value can also be less
focused,
meaningful, and so what I mean by that is
the best innovation comes often
from constraint
or from less because people are overwhelmed
and they just want a product that gives
them exactly what they need,
right? They're overwhelmed. Just, just tell me what
(18:07):
I need. So for example, I love the
example of, um,
you know, stemless wine glasses.
-Yes. -So that is a multibillion-dollar
industry that when first suggested
getting rid of the stem on the glass, um,
was just
regarded as a horrible idea because
wine's supposed to be exclusive. There's a certain
way that you hold the glass and getting rid of the stem
(18:28):
is, it's very pedestrian and mundane.
Uh, those types of glasses and wine
consumption took off because it made it more accessible
to people, right? The glasses were more durable,
they weren't breaking as much because they got rid
of something.
Um, kids, you know, when you see the kids with
balanced bikes that don't have pedals,
that has been the best way to teach kids
how to ride bikes because we got rid of the pedals
(18:50):
that got in the way to teach them to
balance. You focused on what was more important.
And that's, that's just a great
anecdote for innovation, simplicity,
creates space for meaning, it drives
value and allows you to really
focus on what's truly important.
That's when innovation takes off. -Those
are such great examples of
(19:11):
creating that space for
what matters. Like you said, just taking
away the, you know, unnecessary parts
or the things that are a distraction.
Um, and just getting right to the point. That's
great. -But think about it at work, think about it.
so, um, it's contracts that don't have to
be 20 pages, they're 10 or they're
in better language. It's processes where
(19:32):
you take unnecessary steps
out. It's software that consolidates or
has an easy user interface and
gets rid of
unnecessary buttons and and ways
that we interact with it,
so people do things faster. It's, it's
a collective relief when you simplify.
-Absolutely.
Now, do you have any examples, um,
any, uh, ways that simplicity
(19:54):
can give,
um, companies a more strategic
advantage when it is applied like that
as a whole to a company? You know, maybe
not just, you know, a team level, but
when it's,
you know, like we talked about, a software or
something like that.
-Simplicity allows people to focus
and it gives them a competitive, a strategic advantage,
right? So it's not just about that you
(20:16):
save money on the bottom line, you will,
but really what it is in a world that is just
moving so quickly, it gives you speed
because you can focus on what matters. You
can really figure out what are the features and functions
that people really want and you make those the
best,
right? It's not about doing everything it's about doing what
matters
and so what I think is really
interesting is that.
(20:36):
Let's look at the companies that actually simplified
and they didn't just compete
better but they completely transformed
industries.
So when you think about it,
Uber
challenged assumptions and they
completely transformed how we use
transportation. I mean, it, it is
stunning
(20:56):
how much people use that organization,
right? Because they completely simplify.
They challenged every assumption around taxi cabs.
Airbnb, it's simple to get a place to stay and
it goes on and on and on. But the, the
point is, is that
there are organizations, they didn't just use simplicity
to compete better, they completely changed
the game.
And that's what I think is so important,
(21:17):
is less can help you focus
and actually beat people when they're least expecting
it. That's power.
-So now that we've established
why workplace simplicity is so
important, what steps can
leaders
take to really simplify
their processes in their organizations?
-There's so, there's a framework I use because
(21:37):
I could give you a million examples of how you could
do it, but
the simplest thing to think about is three E's.
You want to eliminate it, so we,
we start by eliminating, and I'll explain it. Then
we need to embed it into the culture
because we need people to feel that they are
allowed,
empowered and can move without
fear, and I'll explain that.
(21:57):
And then we have to empower
employees to do it over time, so
the eliminates pretty easy, you
know, we can eliminate all kinds of stupid
things that we all know, but
complexity is like a weed, it grows back,
so we have to constantly build that in. That's where you
embed it into the culture. We expect
you to stop doing things. We
(22:18):
expect you to question work. That's
where it really takes off as part of the everyday
work, right? It won't grow back and
create another frankenstein process,
but the real benefit comes
with power.
So the thing I would say about people
wanting to simplify is
don't just get rid of things, don't just tell
people they can do it, but empower them
(22:39):
by modeling the behavior
and showing them that it's OK to
get rid of stuff because that doesn't just take
away friction.
It takes away fear, and
that is really key with
simplifying. The reason a lot of complexity stays
is because
people are afraid. They don't want to
get something wrong, they don't want to get rid of something
(22:59):
that would get them fired,
right? So by giving them the permission and
then showing people how to do it, like
to say no to meetings or whatever it is,
then people really get on board and
they feel empowered to make it a long-term
part of how they work. -You know, we
discussed earlier how simplicity makes
our work more impactful.
So what role does automation
(23:20):
play in unlocking HR's
full potential? -Well it's, it's huge.
Now there's a lot of things within HR right now
that are still manual processes,
um, you know, different software
and groups they don't talk to one another.
So being able to have a single place
that can automate tasks,
um, that unlock time for them to do more
meaningful work, to focus on more strategic
(23:42):
things. And, you know, the phrase we hear so
much working with — I work a lot with HR
and L&D leaders, you know, as a having
a a training and simplification business,
um, getting them a seat at the table.
You know, if all we're doing is doing tactical things,
you can't do strategic things
and I think automating so
many processes is going to move them away
(24:02):
from, um, checking the boxes, doing
reports, you know, being seen as managing a payroll,
for example, and actually being able to
do something strategic with it.
So I think that's the difference. It's not just about
inputting the data, it's the insights that go
along with it. That's what automation will help them
with. -Absolutely. Well,
now before we wrap up on this topic, um,
do you have any final thoughts?
(24:24):
-I, I have a lot of final thoughts on it. I
think, you know,
it's such an important topic for people,
um, and it seems so simple, but
we don't give ourselves permission to do it and I
would say, you know, it's really time
for people, for us to stop fixing
people
to do more work.
And start fixing work to
better leverage our people
(24:46):
and that's a really important mind shift, right?
Because so many of us think,
you know, "I think I'm organized. Why am I not getting it
right? How come everyone else is doing it?" And the reality
is people are struggling
and they think there's something wrong with them.
And I think as HR
professionals and as leaders,
what we can do again it's not just
fixing people to do more
(25:07):
work,
it's about really thinking about the systems
and the approach and the culture we have around
work so we can really let them do
what they were hired to do in the first place
because that's what HR is really good at.
-Well, thank you so much for joining, uh, HR
Break Room today. It was great.
-Yes, wonderful conversation.
Such a pleasure.-Thank you. I hope we'll go forth and simplify.
(25:27):
-Absolutely. Well, thank you,
um, and thank you listeners for joining the HR Break
Room. Today, we talked about achieving workplace
simplicity through automation.
Now with Paycom's truly single HR
and payroll software,
organizations can unlock full-solution
automation.
Paycom automates payroll, time off
decision-making and
every time-consuming task in between
(25:49):
to simplify life for you and
your employees.
Now to learn more about Paycom's
full-solution automation, visit Paycom.com
today. Thank you for tuning in, and we hope
you visit the HR Break Room again soon.
Be sure to follow and subscribe to HR
Break Room on Spotify, Apple Podcasts
or wherever you listen.
(26:10):
For more episodes, visit HRbreakroom.com
or follow us on social media. Thanks for
tuning into this episode and we can't wait
for you to join us again inside the HR
Break Room.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!