July 16, 2025 • 26 mins
Three-time Olympic gold medalist Carrie Bates isn't just celebrating over a decade of sobriety—she's revolutionizing how workplaces approach addiction recovery. As Director of Strategic Growth and Advocacy at Caron Treatment Centers, Carrie brings a powerful dual perspective to the conversation on substance dependence in professional environments.
Over 26 million Americans report struggling with addiction, with countless others suffering silently. Furthermore, 80% of people who abuse substances are employed. Yet stigma and fear of career consequences keep many from seeking help through their HR departments or employee assistance programs. This silence allows addiction to progress unchecked, affecting productivity, attendance, and overall culture.
Caron Treatment Centers stands out in the recovery landscape through its focus on brain health and neuro-restorative care. Using advanced technology like PET scans, they examine blood flow and neural activity, often discovering that patients have been misdiagnosed with conditions like ADHD or bipolar disorder. This neurological approach treats addiction as a medical condition rather than a moral failing—a crucial distinction for workplace policies.
In this discussion with Bill Banham, Carrie shares candidly about losing her career in sports marketing because of a lack of supportive recovery protocols. "There was no culture, no environment to which this was an acceptable conversation to have," she explains. This experience fuels her advocacy for HR policies that treat addiction with the same compassion as other medical conditions, including graduated return-to-work plans and appropriate accommodations.
Corporate culture often unwittingly excludes those in recovery through alcohol-centered events like "Thirsty Thursdays" and "Wine Wednesdays." Carrie doesn't suggest eliminating these traditions but recommends including appealing non-alcoholic options so everyone feels "a part of, rather than apart from" these important social experiences. For executives and high-profile individuals, Caron's Ocean Drive program offers specialized treatment that balances recovery needs with limited work responsibilities, addressing a major barrier to seeking help.
Ready to transform your workplace? Visit caron.org.com to learn more or connect with Carrie Bates on LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and thanks for tuning in to this episode of the
HR Chat Show.
I'm your host today, billBannam, and in this episode
we're going to consider theimpact that substance dependence
can have on a company's cultureand what a recovery-friendly
workplace actually means.
Tune in as we also explore thechallenges that HR pros face
when trying to persuade wealthyand powerful individuals, such
(00:55):
as CEOs, to pursue mental healthand addiction treatment.
My extremely inspiring guesttoday is Carrie Bates, a
three-time Olympic gold medalistswimmer, recovering alcoholic
and the new director ofstrategic growth and advocacy
for Karen Treatment Centres.
(01:15):
Carrie is celebrating more than10 years of sobriety from
alcoholism and she is passionateabout what HR professionals
must know now about the mentalhealth of their employees.
This is, listeners hands down,one of the most powerful
conversations that I've had witha guest on the HR Chat Show and
(01:37):
I very much hope that you findit useful.
Carrie Bates, it's my pleasureto welcome you to the HR Chat
Show today.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm doing great, Bill .
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you very much for joining us, as we always
like to do, on this show.
Why don't you start by taking aminute or two and telling our
listeners a bit more aboutyourself, your career background
and what brought you to whereyou are today?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
My name is Carrie Bates and I'm currently the
Director of Strategic Growth andAdvocacy for Care and Treatment
Centers, and I've been workingin the recovery industry now for
about the last decade, butreally what brought me here was
most of them.
This is a second career for me.
Most of my career was in thesports industry with some of the
largest sports brands in theworld, and that was based on my
(02:26):
background as a three-timeOlympic gold medalist in
swimming, and I found my wayinto the recovery, addiction and
recovery world through my ownpersonal journey with addiction
and recovery.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I understand that Karen Treatment Centers are
unique in focusing on brainhealth and neuro-restorative
care.
Can you tell us a wee bit moreabout that and why Karen is
particularly unique in thatspace?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Definitely.
You know, karen in my mind, andone of the reasons that drew me
to Karen personally was theadvancements and the cutting
edge technology that we're usingon neuro restorative health.
You know, it's really the firsttime that I've seen in a
treatment environment that we'reactually treating the afflicted
(03:12):
organ, which is the brain,rather than just the symptoms of
the disease, which is obviouslythe drinking and using of drugs
.
So, you know, through thesebrain scans, these FTP, pet
scans, etc.
What we're able to learn iswhat is going on with the brain.
(03:35):
We're able to see blood flow incertain places, lack thereof.
People are being misdiagnosedprior to coming in with anything
from ADHD to bipolar disorder.
And we're coming, we're findingthrough our technology and
through the scans that in factthey don't have those things and
(03:56):
discovering what they do have.
So it's really in, it's reallylive and living color answers to
what most of us that areseeking recovery are looking for
.
Why, why are we like this?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
OK, thank you.
So this podcast obviously isgeared towards HR leaders,
business leaders and so on.
Share some of the effects ofaddictions from from employees
on on their productivity, on on,potentially, their colleagues
(04:31):
and and overall on the companyculture and and also perhaps as
part of the answer.
My sense is you don't becomeaddicted overnight.
It's something that can creepup over time.
So maybe maybe thoseconsequences are things that
leaders should be aware of, asotherwise they can snowball.
(04:52):
You know, maybe there areopportunities to help earlier on
.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
For sure, and you know HR plays a really important
role in the recovery processfor people they can play and
oftentimes we're not seeing thatbecause there are so many
people struggling with addictionthat you know this is such a
shame-based disease that peopleare afraid to talk about it in
(05:16):
the work environment.
They're afraid to go in andtell their HR departments or
their EAPs that they need helpbecause there's a lot of fear of
losing their jobs and thestigma kind of around addiction.
You know, I often say closeyour eyes and think about what's
the first image that comes toyour mind when you say alcoholic
(05:39):
or drug addict.
And typically for people it'swhat we all think of of the guy
under the bridge with the brownpaper bag and a bottle right.
But what most of the worlddoesn't understand is that over
80% of people that abuse alcoholand illicit drugs are actually
employed, and so what that tellsus is that this is the great
(06:03):
equalizer when it comes to workenvironments.
This is not something that isstrictly reserved for people
that are houseless and living onthe streets.
This is affecting everyfamily's life.
Typically, that's in those workenvironments, and really HR can
be the catalyst for peoplegetting help and you're going to
(06:24):
see that in their productivityfor sure.
I mean there are more misseddays of work, more people
showing up late for work.
There are signs of problemsgoing on and people typically
just don't want to ask why andare you okay?
Because behind that question isoften an answer that scares
(06:44):
people.
When we're talking aboutbehavioral health in general
Right Mental health, addiction,alcoholism it's all under that
behavioral health category,which can feel very scary for
people to want to talk about.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the HR Chat podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll
love our articles on the HRGazette.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And now back to the show addictions you mentioned
just a moment ago are in theworkplace.
I wonder if you can share anynumbers around the percentage of
folks in the general populationwho are fighting an addiction
(07:31):
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what we do know in the US is that we're looking
at somewhere in the number ofabout 26 million people that are
reporting, struggling withaddiction.
So if that many people arereporting, we can only surmise
and guess that there's many,many more that are struggling
that aren't talking about itright, and so it isn't of
(07:58):
epidemic proportions here in theUS for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
If you'd be open to it, carrie, I'd love now to
understand a little bit moreabout your personal journey.
You mentioned earlier thatthere is a stigma, there is a
shame attached with addictions.
Lots of company policies saydon't turn up to work drunk.
So that's another reason whypeople are very hesitant to
(08:23):
speak to their HR departments ortheir bosses.
You know which is terrible ifthey need help, if they're not
very well In your case, wasthere a moment where you
realized that you needed?
You needed help.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Sure, you know, my moments of needing help were
usually at someone else'ssuggestion.
You know, unfortunately, thisis a disease that is progressive
, as you mentioned, it'sincurable and it's fatal, one of
(08:59):
those diseases that sit in thatcat, in those three categories,
that tells us we don't have it.
So when we are in active use,we have a disease that says
you're fine, you're fine, itwon't be that bad tonight.
So, um, you know, for me, I Iwas a person that started going
into residential treatment, umin 2010.
(09:19):
And I ended up going four timesin a two-year period of time.
I really struggled to findsustainable recovery and I lost
everything and nearly lost mylife to this disease.
And you know, all through that,ultimately, what ended up
happening to me was I lost mycareer and and the reason for
(09:43):
that is because there was noculture, there was no
environment to which this was anacceptable conversation to have
.
This was not something that waswidely looked at as a problem
that could be addressed, similarto the leave that we give
people for cancer or for heartdisease or open heart surgery,
(10:07):
right, and so there was nograduated coming back to work
plans.
There was no, you know, becauseaddiction treatment isn't just
when you walk in the doors andyou stay in a facility for 30,
60 or 90 days.
The real work begins when we gethome the aftercare which every
(10:27):
disease has, aftercare protocolsof which need to be followed,
and so this you know, ultimatelylosing my career was what
really really prompted mypassion for helping
organizations understand that,even if they don't want to
(10:50):
believe it, know you do have aproblem within your organization
, because there's not one personthat isn't affected by someone
by this disease, whether it'snot themselves, it's a family
(11:10):
member, a child, a father, amother everyone knows somebody,
and so having an open dialogue,having the ability to come to HR
and tell them I'm reallystruggling, just like we would
if we were diagnosed with cancer, would really help intervene
and there's never a failedintervention when it comes to
(11:32):
this disease.
It would help intervene beforethe bottom continues to get
lower and lower and lower andyou end up like me and you
ultimately end up losing yourjob.
There's a kind of a way toraise that bottom for somebody
in order for them to get thehelp they need at a time where
(11:53):
they can still come back and be.
I mean, the thing about this isthat companies don't even
realize the potential and thetalent in the people that are
struggling with substances.
Because if they're okay at worknow and they're sick and maybe
they're showing up late, maybetheir productivity is a little
(12:14):
bit lower, but they're stilldoing a pretty good job, imagine
just imagine what kind ofemployees those people would be
if they were in recovery.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
As someone who's been through it, talking to our HR
audience today, what would beyour advice to an HR leader who
has someone come into theiroffice and they open up and they
share that they have an illness, they have an addiction to
alcohol or drugs.
What would you suggest is themost appropriate way to try and
(12:45):
help that person?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah, I think that HR departments within
organizations need to create asafe space for all employees to
come to them to discuss whateverit is that's going on in their
lives.
I mean, that's why mostcompanies have leave benefits is
to use those when we reallyneed them, and so the first and
(13:08):
foremost thing is to create anenvironment where employees feel
safe to come in and talk aboutthis stuff.
The second area is to haveresources that you can give them
, referrals that you can givethem, and if that's not
something that's in their quoteRolodex or at their fingertips,
(13:30):
they should work with theirinsurance carrier to find out
who are those in-networkproviders or who are those
ethical providers for ourexecutives, for example, that we
can use and utilize and offerto our employees to create an
environment to where weencourage them to get well.
(13:53):
The other part that HR canreally really do to help these
people that are struggling, likemyself, in a work environment.
I came from the sports world,which was, you know, consisted
of thirsty Thursdays and wineWednesdays and all these other
things in the office, so therewas no culture for the
(14:20):
non-drinkers, right, and it'snot to say you can't continue to
have this culture of bondingand togetherness and celebration
and rewarding employees for ahard week of work and a job well
done.
A hard week of work and a jobwell done.
(14:43):
But what are we doing to caterand to really allow the
non-drinking population to feelsafe and part of, because part
of something?
You know, addiction makes usapart from everything.
Recovery makes us a part ofsomething, but we have to be
able to carry that into our workenvironment too.
So can we have thirstyThursdays but also include
(15:05):
mocktails or NA beers or or,frankly, just sodas, right Like?
We need to be able to combineboth cultures, because they can
coexist within one organization,to make sure that we're making
everyone feel a part of, ratherthan apart from, the
organization.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So terribly important to give folks other options so
they're not feeling like they'rebeing alienated by going to an
alcoholic drinks event drinksevent.
There are some companies outthere that still have a zero
tolerance policy around drinksand drugs, which fuels this fear
of coming forward.
What would you say to thoseleaders of those companies with
(15:49):
zero tolerance policies?
Would you say, for example,that they're a bit outdated?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Well, for sure, I mean, I would say that a zero
tolerance unless it's a safetysensitive position, like if
you're flying airplanes or ifyou're operating on somebody in
an OR or something along thoselines.
You know, I think that there'scertainly safety sensitive
positions that we would have azero tolerance policy.
I know for one, I probablywouldn't be someone that would
(16:16):
love to have, like my school busdriver with my kids in the bus
allowed to drink, right.
So I think that there arecertain professions, safety
sensitive professions, thatreally demand and require kind
of a zero tolerance policy.
So I'm all for that in thoseroles If it's a general
(16:36):
organization that isn't safetysensitive.
You know, I think a zerotolerance is, especially today,
is tough.
It's really tough to enforcesomething like that.
It's expensive to enforcesomething like that.
If you're giving people drugand alcohol UAs and tests and
all these other things.
(16:56):
I mean this is a hugeexpenditure for a company to
kind of maintain.
And so what's the balance right?
Where's the middle groundbetween zero and excess?
And I think that that's thechallenge for every organization
is to find the balance betweenevery week, thirsty Thursdays
and Wine Wednesdays to and aChristmas party that ends up
(17:18):
with people, you know, blackingout and not knowing how they got
home.
You know, where is that middleground?
And it does exist, it does andit can coexist with that, with
that culture of celebration.
But you know it's getting, itcan get dangerous.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Karen has a special, rather luxurious treatment
facility Ocean Drive in PalmBeach, florida.
Now there's a place I wouldlove to go, palm Beach, designed
to help treat globalcelebrities, corporate CEOs and
other prominent high net worthindividuals.
Can you tell us more about thechallenges that HR executives
(17:57):
can overcome to convince thosepowerful individuals to enter
treatment?
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Sure, you know, karen , ocean Drive program in Delray
Beach, florida, is a wonderful,wonderful program for these high
net worth, high levelexecutives, multi-generational
wealth individuals to havereally a very concierge,
(18:26):
thorough service.
It includes, of course, all ofthe brain scans and the brain
health, but it also gives themthe ability to have a lot more
access to their primary caretreatment providers, et cetera.
They're meeting with them five,six times a week, but we also
are carving out a period of thattime for them to be able to
(18:48):
continue their work.
We're really not shutting thesepeople off from the world.
I mean, in many cases thesepeople are running boards,
they're running Fortune, youknow, fortune 500 companies, et
cetera, and they really can'twalk away.
And that and that's a bigbarrier to treatment for this
population is to be able, is tofeel like they have to walk away
from their entire life for 30,60, or 90 days, because in many
(19:11):
cases for these high levelexecutives that's an
impossibility.
And so what we've really triedto do with Ocean Drive is really
remove those barriers but alsobe, at the same time, educating
them on maybe some boundariesaround work, how often they're
working.
You know this population isoften told yes, all the time,
(19:34):
and so I think one thing that HRcan do is really work with
these individuals to let themknow that this is not a moral
failing, that there's a ton ofsupport behind them from the
organization they may own thecompany, which makes it even
more challenging, right?
Because, as the owner of thecompany, there's not a lot of
people that can tell them whatthey have to go do, that can
(20:00):
tell them what they have to godo.
But I think that there's agentle way, from a place of love
and tolerance and kindness,that we can really express our
concern for these people and tolet them know that there is a
solution and there is a placethat they can go that demands
privacy, it allows them to staysomewhat anonymous because their
exposure to other patients, etcetera, is very minimal, and it
(20:22):
gives them a place to go andheal in an environment that
they're used to.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So, if my math is correct, based on the numbers of
millions of people that youmentioned earlier on who are
currently recorded as battlingaddiction, that would be around
7% or 8% of the US population,but to your point, it's much,
much higher than that.
One thing we haven't spokenabout yet, and I would be keen
to get your thoughts, is whatwas the impact of the pandemic
(20:50):
and people working remotely onincreases in addictions.
You know, when you're away fromyour colleagues, when you're
not being watched, when you'reterribly down because it feels
like the world is collapsing.
And here we are way past thepandemic, but many people feel,
still feel like the world iscollapsing for different reasons
at the moment.
What, what can that do toincrease the, the potential of
(21:13):
of developing an addiction todrink or drugs?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
yeah, you, you know the pandemic was brutal for, I
think, every segment of thepopulation right, I look at our
kids and how they sufferedsocially, health-wise, all of it
, but in particular withaddiction, what we saw really in
(21:36):
the field at that time was alot of people that had had some
sobriety that returned to useduring that period of time,
because it really removed people.
You know, the opposite ofaddiction really is connection,
and so when you remove thatconnection to other people,
especially those of us inrecovery, it really kind of puts
(22:00):
us back on that isolated islandthat got us in trouble in the
first place, where we kind offelt most comfortable right, and
so we did see a lot of returnto use during that period of
time.
We also saw a lot of newlydiscovered people that were
struggling because they had beenhiding it so well from spouses
(22:24):
and friends and things like that, maybe using or drinking in
their own home without peopleknowing, and then we're all in
one place and nobody's leaving,and then kind of the secret is
exposed about how much what'sbeen going on in the house,
maybe when the spouse is workingat the office, et cetera, and
so we saw a lot of people comeduring that time for that as
(22:46):
well.
Right, maybe they had beenusing or drinking for some time,
but they'd still beensuccessful at hiding it, so we
saw it come back.
You know isolation whether it'sthe pandemic or just in everyday
life you know, working fromhome can be very isolating for
people.
Some people manage itbeautifully.
Other people really needconnection with other.
(23:09):
People have brought people backnow because not only did
company cultures start to change, but I think also the
connection with other people andthe connection to the brands
that they represent, the cultureof the organization.
A lot of that started todissolve, and so I think a lot
(23:31):
of companies have brought a lotof people back to work, which I
think is a great thing.
But isolation is really atricky beast when it comes to
people that are struggling withsubstances.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Carrie, I'm sad to say we're almost at the end of
this particular conversation.
I'd like to now say that I havelots of respect and admiration
for you personally.
You've turned something aroundand now you've made a mission of
helping other people throughKaren.
I just think that's incrediblyadmirable Final thoughts from
(24:05):
you.
What would you like to leaveour listeners with today?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, I think that you know.
If I could leave one last notewith everybody, it would be you
know, if you are in HR and youdo have the ability to influence
policy, to influence culture,to influence safe places for
employees to come and talk aboutthese types of things and to
(24:31):
really give them the resourcesthat they need to get the help
they need so they can come backand really affect the
organization in such a positiveway, I would really ask that you
give some real thought to whatyour current policies are and
take a look at those, and toreally put your hand out to help
(24:53):
these people, because peopleare dying from this every day,
and if we can save one life andif we can bring people back to
work in the best version ofthemselves that they're supposed
to be, then I think that that'sa victory for any HR department
.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I can definitely get behind that.
And, carrie, just finally, howcan folks connect with you?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overinstagram and places?
And, of course, how can?
How can folks learn more aboutkaren treatment centers?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
sure, um, I'm on linkedin um carrie bates ollie,
which is olympian, and then I'malso on instagram and facebook,
so they can find me there.
And then the best way to reachout to Karen is on the website,
which is wwwkarenorg.
And you know, I would just sayreach your hand out for help if
you need it.
It's the hardest phone callyou'll ever make, it's the
(25:51):
heaviest the phone will everfeel, but it's the bravest thing
you'll ever do too.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, I think that you're very brave and I think
you're very cool and Iappreciate your time today.
Thank you, Carrie.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of episodes published by
HR Gazette and remember forwhat's new in the world of work.
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Hello and thanks for tuning in to this episode of the
HR Chat Show.
I'm your host today, billBannam, and in this episode
we're going to consider theimpact that substance dependence
can have on a company's cultureand what a recovery-friendly
workplace actually means.
Tune in as we also explore thechallenges that HR pros face
when trying to persuade wealthyand powerful individuals, such
(00:55):
as CEOs, to pursue mental healthand addiction treatment.
My extremely inspiring guesttoday is Carrie Bates, a
three-time Olympic gold medalistswimmer, recovering alcoholic
and the new director ofstrategic growth and advocacy
for Karen Treatment Centres.
(01:15):
Carrie is celebrating more than10 years of sobriety from
alcoholism and she is passionateabout what HR professionals
must know now about the mentalhealth of their employees.
This is, listeners hands down,one of the most powerful
conversations that I've had witha guest on the HR Chat Show and
(01:37):
I very much hope that you findit useful.
Carrie Bates, it's my pleasureto welcome you to the HR Chat
Show today.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm doing great, Bill .
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you very much for joining us, as we always
like to do, on this show.
Why don't you start by taking aminute or two and telling our
listeners a bit more aboutyourself, your career background
and what brought you to whereyou are today?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
My name is Carrie Bates and I'm currently the
Director of Strategic Growth andAdvocacy for Care and Treatment
Centers, and I've been workingin the recovery industry now for
about the last decade, butreally what brought me here was
most of them.
This is a second career for me.
Most of my career was in thesports industry with some of the
largest sports brands in theworld, and that was based on my
(02:26):
background as a three-timeOlympic gold medalist in
swimming, and I found my wayinto the recovery, addiction and
recovery world through my ownpersonal journey with addiction
and recovery.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
I understand that Karen Treatment Centers are
unique in focusing on brainhealth and neuro-restorative
care.
Can you tell us a wee bit moreabout that and why Karen is
particularly unique in thatspace?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Definitely.
You know, karen in my mind, andone of the reasons that drew me
to Karen personally was theadvancements and the cutting
edge technology that we're usingon neuro restorative health.
You know, it's really the firsttime that I've seen in a
treatment environment that we'reactually treating the afflicted
(03:12):
organ, which is the brain,rather than just the symptoms of
the disease, which is obviouslythe drinking and using of drugs
.
So, you know, through thesebrain scans, these FTP, pet
scans, etc.
What we're able to learn iswhat is going on with the brain.
(03:35):
We're able to see blood flow incertain places, lack thereof.
People are being misdiagnosedprior to coming in with anything
from ADHD to bipolar disorder.
And we're coming, we're findingthrough our technology and
through the scans that in factthey don't have those things and
(03:56):
discovering what they do have.
So it's really in, it's reallylive and living color answers to
what most of us that areseeking recovery are looking for
.
Why, why are we like this?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
OK, thank you.
So this podcast obviously isgeared towards HR leaders,
business leaders and so on.
Share some of the effects ofaddictions from from employees
on on their productivity, on on,potentially, their colleagues
(04:31):
and and overall on the companyculture and and also perhaps as
part of the answer.
My sense is you don't becomeaddicted overnight.
It's something that can creepup over time.
So maybe maybe thoseconsequences are things that
leaders should be aware of, asotherwise they can snowball.
(04:52):
You know, maybe there areopportunities to help earlier on
.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
For sure, and you know HR plays a really important
role in the recovery processfor people they can play and
oftentimes we're not seeing thatbecause there are so many
people struggling with addictionthat you know this is such a
shame-based disease that peopleare afraid to talk about it in
(05:16):
the work environment.
They're afraid to go in andtell their HR departments or
their EAPs that they need helpbecause there's a lot of fear of
losing their jobs and thestigma kind of around addiction.
You know, I often say closeyour eyes and think about what's
the first image that comes toyour mind when you say alcoholic
(05:39):
or drug addict.
And typically for people it'swhat we all think of of the guy
under the bridge with the brownpaper bag and a bottle right.
But what most of the worlddoesn't understand is that over
80% of people that abuse alcoholand illicit drugs are actually
employed, and so what that tellsus is that this is the great
(06:03):
equalizer when it comes to workenvironments.
This is not something that isstrictly reserved for people
that are houseless and living onthe streets.
This is affecting everyfamily's life.
Typically, that's in those workenvironments, and really HR can
be the catalyst for peoplegetting help and you're going to
(06:24):
see that in their productivityfor sure.
I mean there are more misseddays of work, more people
showing up late for work.
There are signs of problemsgoing on and people typically
just don't want to ask why andare you okay?
Because behind that question isoften an answer that scares
(06:44):
people.
When we're talking aboutbehavioral health in general
Right Mental health, addiction,alcoholism it's all under that
behavioral health category,which can feel very scary for
people to want to talk about.
Thanks for listening to thisepisode of the HR Chat podcast.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
If you enjoy the audio content we produce, you'll
love our articles on the HRGazette.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And now back to the show addictions you mentioned
just a moment ago are in theworkplace.
I wonder if you can share anynumbers around the percentage of
folks in the general populationwho are fighting an addiction
(07:31):
at the moment.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
Well, what we do know in the US is that we're looking
at somewhere in the number ofabout 26 million people that are
reporting, struggling withaddiction.
So if that many people arereporting, we can only surmise
and guess that there's many,many more that are struggling
that aren't talking about itright, and so it isn't of
(07:58):
epidemic proportions here in theUS for sure.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
If you'd be open to it, carrie, I'd love now to
understand a little bit moreabout your personal journey.
You mentioned earlier thatthere is a stigma, there is a
shame attached with addictions.
Lots of company policies saydon't turn up to work drunk.
So that's another reason whypeople are very hesitant to
(08:23):
speak to their HR departments ortheir bosses.
You know which is terrible ifthey need help, if they're not
very well In your case, wasthere a moment where you
realized that you needed?
You needed help.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Sure, you know, my moments of needing help were
usually at someone else'ssuggestion.
You know, unfortunately, thisis a disease that is progressive
, as you mentioned, it'sincurable and it's fatal, one of
(08:59):
those diseases that sit in thatcat, in those three categories,
that tells us we don't have it.
So when we are in active use,we have a disease that says
you're fine, you're fine, itwon't be that bad tonight.
So, um, you know, for me, I Iwas a person that started going
into residential treatment, umin 2010.
(09:19):
And I ended up going four timesin a two-year period of time.
I really struggled to findsustainable recovery and I lost
everything and nearly lost mylife to this disease.
And you know, all through that,ultimately, what ended up
happening to me was I lost mycareer and and the reason for
(09:43):
that is because there was noculture, there was no
environment to which this was anacceptable conversation to have
.
This was not something that waswidely looked at as a problem
that could be addressed, similarto the leave that we give
people for cancer or for heartdisease or open heart surgery,
(10:07):
right, and so there was nograduated coming back to work
plans.
There was no, you know, becauseaddiction treatment isn't just
when you walk in the doors andyou stay in a facility for 30,
60 or 90 days.
The real work begins when we gethome the aftercare which every
(10:27):
disease has, aftercare protocolsof which need to be followed,
and so this you know, ultimatelylosing my career was what
really really prompted mypassion for helping
organizations understand that,even if they don't want to
(10:50):
believe it, know you do have aproblem within your organization
, because there's not one personthat isn't affected by someone
by this disease, whether it'snot themselves, it's a family
(11:10):
member, a child, a father, amother everyone knows somebody,
and so having an open dialogue,having the ability to come to HR
and tell them I'm reallystruggling, just like we would
if we were diagnosed with cancer, would really help intervene
and there's never a failedintervention when it comes to
(11:32):
this disease.
It would help intervene beforethe bottom continues to get
lower and lower and lower andyou end up like me and you
ultimately end up losing yourjob.
There's a kind of a way toraise that bottom for somebody
in order for them to get thehelp they need at a time where
(11:53):
they can still come back and be.
I mean, the thing about this isthat companies don't even
realize the potential and thetalent in the people that are
struggling with substances.
Because if they're okay at worknow and they're sick and maybe
they're showing up late, maybetheir productivity is a little
(12:14):
bit lower, but they're stilldoing a pretty good job, imagine
just imagine what kind ofemployees those people would be
if they were in recovery.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
As someone who's been through it, talking to our HR
audience today, what would beyour advice to an HR leader who
has someone come into theiroffice and they open up and they
share that they have an illness, they have an addiction to
alcohol or drugs.
What would you suggest is themost appropriate way to try and
(12:45):
help that person?
Speaker 3 (12:46):
Yeah, I think that HR departments within
organizations need to create asafe space for all employees to
come to them to discuss whateverit is that's going on in their
lives.
I mean, that's why mostcompanies have leave benefits is
to use those when we reallyneed them, and so the first and
(13:08):
foremost thing is to create anenvironment where employees feel
safe to come in and talk aboutthis stuff.
The second area is to haveresources that you can give them
, referrals that you can givethem, and if that's not
something that's in their quoteRolodex or at their fingertips,
(13:30):
they should work with theirinsurance carrier to find out
who are those in-networkproviders or who are those
ethical providers for ourexecutives, for example, that we
can use and utilize and offerto our employees to create an
environment to where weencourage them to get well.
(13:53):
The other part that HR canreally really do to help these
people that are struggling, likemyself, in a work environment.
I came from the sports world,which was, you know, consisted
of thirsty Thursdays and wineWednesdays and all these other
things in the office, so therewas no culture for the
(14:20):
non-drinkers, right, and it'snot to say you can't continue to
have this culture of bondingand togetherness and celebration
and rewarding employees for ahard week of work and a job well
done.
A hard week of work and a jobwell done.
(14:43):
But what are we doing to caterand to really allow the
non-drinking population to feelsafe and part of, because part
of something?
You know, addiction makes usapart from everything.
Recovery makes us a part ofsomething, but we have to be
able to carry that into our workenvironment too.
So can we have thirstyThursdays but also include
(15:05):
mocktails or NA beers or or,frankly, just sodas, right Like?
We need to be able to combineboth cultures, because they can
coexist within one organization,to make sure that we're making
everyone feel a part of, ratherthan apart from, the
organization.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
So terribly important to give folks other options so
they're not feeling like they'rebeing alienated by going to an
alcoholic drinks event drinksevent.
There are some companies outthere that still have a zero
tolerance policy around drinksand drugs, which fuels this fear
of coming forward.
What would you say to thoseleaders of those companies with
(15:49):
zero tolerance policies?
Would you say, for example,that they're a bit outdated?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Well, for sure, I mean, I would say that a zero
tolerance unless it's a safetysensitive position, like if
you're flying airplanes or ifyou're operating on somebody in
an OR or something along thoselines.
You know, I think that there'scertainly safety sensitive
positions that we would have azero tolerance policy.
I know for one, I probablywouldn't be someone that would
(16:16):
love to have, like my school busdriver with my kids in the bus
allowed to drink, right.
So I think that there arecertain professions, safety
sensitive professions, thatreally demand and require kind
of a zero tolerance policy.
So I'm all for that in thoseroles If it's a general
(16:36):
organization that isn't safetysensitive.
You know, I think a zerotolerance is, especially today,
is tough.
It's really tough to enforcesomething like that.
It's expensive to enforcesomething like that.
If you're giving people drugand alcohol UAs and tests and
all these other things.
(16:56):
I mean this is a hugeexpenditure for a company to
kind of maintain.
And so what's the balance right?
Where's the middle groundbetween zero and excess?
And I think that that's thechallenge for every organization
is to find the balance betweenevery week, thirsty Thursdays
and Wine Wednesdays to and aChristmas party that ends up
(17:18):
with people, you know, blackingout and not knowing how they got
home.
You know, where is that middleground?
And it does exist, it does andit can coexist with that, with
that culture of celebration.
But you know it's getting, itcan get dangerous.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Karen has a special, rather luxurious treatment
facility Ocean Drive in PalmBeach, florida.
Now there's a place I wouldlove to go, palm Beach, designed
to help treat globalcelebrities, corporate CEOs and
other prominent high net worthindividuals.
Can you tell us more about thechallenges that HR executives
(17:57):
can overcome to convince thosepowerful individuals to enter
treatment?
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Sure, you know, karen , ocean Drive program in Delray
Beach, florida, is a wonderful,wonderful program for these high
net worth, high levelexecutives, multi-generational
wealth individuals to havereally a very concierge,
(18:26):
thorough service.
It includes, of course, all ofthe brain scans and the brain
health, but it also gives themthe ability to have a lot more
access to their primary caretreatment providers, et cetera.
They're meeting with them five,six times a week, but we also
are carving out a period of thattime for them to be able to
(18:48):
continue their work.
We're really not shutting thesepeople off from the world.
I mean, in many cases thesepeople are running boards,
they're running Fortune, youknow, fortune 500 companies, et
cetera, and they really can'twalk away.
And that and that's a bigbarrier to treatment for this
population is to be able, is tofeel like they have to walk away
from their entire life for 30,60, or 90 days, because in many
(19:11):
cases for these high levelexecutives that's an
impossibility.
And so what we've really triedto do with Ocean Drive is really
remove those barriers but alsobe, at the same time, educating
them on maybe some boundariesaround work, how often they're
working.
You know this population isoften told yes, all the time,
(19:34):
and so I think one thing that HRcan do is really work with
these individuals to let themknow that this is not a moral
failing, that there's a ton ofsupport behind them from the
organization they may own thecompany, which makes it even
more challenging, right?
Because, as the owner of thecompany, there's not a lot of
people that can tell them whatthey have to go do, that can
(20:00):
tell them what they have to godo.
But I think that there's agentle way, from a place of love
and tolerance and kindness,that we can really express our
concern for these people and tolet them know that there is a
solution and there is a placethat they can go that demands
privacy, it allows them to staysomewhat anonymous because their
exposure to other patients, etcetera, is very minimal, and it
(20:22):
gives them a place to go andheal in an environment that
they're used to.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So, if my math is correct, based on the numbers of
millions of people that youmentioned earlier on who are
currently recorded as battlingaddiction, that would be around
7% or 8% of the US population,but to your point, it's much,
much higher than that.
One thing we haven't spokenabout yet, and I would be keen
to get your thoughts, is whatwas the impact of the pandemic
(20:50):
and people working remotely onincreases in addictions.
You know, when you're away fromyour colleagues, when you're
not being watched, when you'reterribly down because it feels
like the world is collapsing.
And here we are way past thepandemic, but many people feel,
still feel like the world iscollapsing for different reasons
at the moment.
What, what can that do toincrease the, the potential of
(21:13):
of developing an addiction todrink or drugs?
Speaker 3 (21:16):
yeah, you, you know the pandemic was brutal for, I
think, every segment of thepopulation right, I look at our
kids and how they sufferedsocially, health-wise, all of it
, but in particular withaddiction, what we saw really in
(21:36):
the field at that time was alot of people that had had some
sobriety that returned to useduring that period of time,
because it really removed people.
You know, the opposite ofaddiction really is connection,
and so when you remove thatconnection to other people,
especially those of us inrecovery, it really kind of puts
(22:00):
us back on that isolated islandthat got us in trouble in the
first place, where we kind offelt most comfortable right, and
so we did see a lot of returnto use during that period of
time.
We also saw a lot of newlydiscovered people that were
struggling because they had beenhiding it so well from spouses
(22:24):
and friends and things like that, maybe using or drinking in
their own home without peopleknowing, and then we're all in
one place and nobody's leaving,and then kind of the secret is
exposed about how much what'sbeen going on in the house,
maybe when the spouse is workingat the office, et cetera, and
so we saw a lot of people comeduring that time for that as
(22:46):
well.
Right, maybe they had beenusing or drinking for some time,
but they'd still beensuccessful at hiding it, so we
saw it come back.
You know isolation whether it'sthe pandemic or just in everyday
life you know, working fromhome can be very isolating for
people.
Some people manage itbeautifully.
Other people really needconnection with other.
(23:09):
People have brought people backnow because not only did
company cultures start to change, but I think also the
connection with other people andthe connection to the brands
that they represent, the cultureof the organization.
A lot of that started todissolve, and so I think a lot
(23:31):
of companies have brought a lotof people back to work, which I
think is a great thing.
But isolation is really atricky beast when it comes to
people that are struggling withsubstances.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Carrie, I'm sad to say we're almost at the end of
this particular conversation.
I'd like to now say that I havelots of respect and admiration
for you personally.
You've turned something aroundand now you've made a mission of
helping other people throughKaren.
I just think that's incrediblyadmirable Final thoughts from
(24:05):
you.
What would you like to leaveour listeners with today?
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Yeah, I think that you know.
If I could leave one last notewith everybody, it would be you
know, if you are in HR and youdo have the ability to influence
policy, to influence culture,to influence safe places for
employees to come and talk aboutthese types of things and to
(24:31):
really give them the resourcesthat they need to get the help
they need so they can come backand really affect the
organization in such a positiveway, I would really ask that you
give some real thought to whatyour current policies are and
take a look at those, and toreally put your hand out to help
(24:53):
these people, because peopleare dying from this every day,
and if we can save one life andif we can bring people back to
work in the best version ofthemselves that they're supposed
to be, then I think that that'sa victory for any HR department
.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
I can definitely get behind that.
And, carrie, just finally, howcan folks connect with you?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overinstagram and places?
And, of course, how can?
How can folks learn more aboutkaren treatment centers?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
sure, um, I'm on linkedin um carrie bates ollie,
which is olympian, and then I'malso on instagram and facebook,
so they can find me there.
And then the best way to reachout to Karen is on the website,
which is wwwkarenorg.
And you know, I would just sayreach your hand out for help if
you need it.
It's the hardest phone callyou'll ever make, it's the
(25:51):
heaviest the phone will everfeel, but it's the bravest thing
you'll ever do too.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Well, I think that you're very brave and I think
you're very cool and Iappreciate your time today.
Thank you, Carrie.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Thank you for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of episodes published by
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