June 17, 2025 • 22 mins
What does it mean when a Vice President, Global Talent Acquisition declares "recruiting is broken"? Jenn Cunningham of Pearson doesn't just diagnose the problem – she offers a vision for how artificial intelligence can bring the human element back to hiring.
Drawing from her fascinating career journey from McDonald's store manager to leading global talent acquisition at a major education company, Jenn explains that traditional recruitment has been failing candidates, recruiters, and businesses alike. Overengineered processes designed primarily for financial reporting have stripped away the flexibility needed to accommodate human needs and experiences.
The solution? AI tools thoughtfully designed to eliminate friction points and busy work. Pearson's research shows that generative AI could help US workers reclaim a staggering 78 million hours weekly currently spent on administrative tasks. At Pearson, they're already seeing results – their talent acquisition team has decreased by 31% year-over-year as AI handles scheduling, onboarding, and conversion tasks, while recruiters focus on the high-value, relationship-building aspects of their roles that truly add value.
Perhaps most insightfully, Cunningham addresses the paradoxical messaging that creates resistance among recruiters: "AI is coming for your job" versus "AI will make your life easier." Resolving this contradiction is key to successful implementation. For leaders navigating this transition, Cunningham advises focusing on changing attitudes rather than overhauling entire systems, as many AI solutions can integrate with existing platforms.
As we confront a rapidly changing hiring landscape, the skills that remain uniquely valuable are precisely those that AI struggles to replicate: critical thinking, adaptability, and the ability to discern truth from fiction in a world awash with information.
Feature Your Brand on the HRchat Podcast
The HRchat show has had 100,000s of downloads and is frequently listed as one of the most popular global podcasts for HR pros, Talent execs and leaders. It is ranked in the top ten in the world based on traffic, social media followers, domain authority & freshness. The podcast is also ranked as the Best Canadian HR Podcast by FeedSpot and one of the top 10% most popular shows by Listen Score.
Want to share the story of how your business is helping to shape the world of work? We offer sponsored episodes, audio adverts, email campaigns, and a host of other options. Check out packages here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visit.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
HRGazettecom.
Welcome to another episode ofthe HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannum, and in
this episode, we're going totalk about ways that AI is
transforming recruitment.
And joining me on the show forthe first time is Jennifer
Cunningham, global VP of GlobalTalent Acquisition over at
(00:44):
Pearson.
Jen brings over 20 years ofexperience in recruiting and HR
across diverse industries,starting as a store manager at
McDonald's to working her way upto Adidas and now leading at
Pearson.
Hey, jen, welcome to the showtoday.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm all good, Bill.
Thanks for having me.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I am wonderful.
The sun is shining.
I'm in a very good mood.
You've caught me on a great day.
Let's have lots of fun here.
Beyond my reintroduction just amoment ago, Jen, why don't you
start by taking a couple ofminutes, telling our listeners a
bit about yourself, your careerbackground and what gets you up
in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
OK, happy to.
So I'm Jen Cunningham.
Preferred Jen versus Jennifer.
Okay, happy to, so I'm JennyCunningham.
Preferred Jenny versus Jennifer, Sadly.
As a youngster I spent muchtime in hospital with severe
asthma, and so Jennifer alwaysreminds me of being woken up in
the middle of the night withnurses asking me to take
nebulizers.
So I've kind of had an allergicreaction to Jennifer these days
(01:40):
.
Based in sunny Manchester inthe United Kingdom, Mancunian,
born and bred yes, I am a blue,so I'm on the right side of the
city, although we haven't beendoing particularly great this
season.
I had to own that I've spentmost of my life here in
Manchester, outside of fiveyears living in Germany in the
(02:02):
depths of Bavaria, which isfabulous.
What gets me up in the morningis my two boys massive age
difference.
I have a 10-year-old and a23-year-old, so a fully grown
man.
In my house I'm renovating mybeautiful Georgian property, so
that's where I spend most of mytime.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Very good.
So Jen, not Jennifer, georgianproperty, two lovely boys.
You're blue, um, which probablynegates you joining us at
disrupt manchester in septemberbecause it's at the morson
recruitment office andapparently overlooks old
trafford, so you might not wantto go to that, but if you like
to come, you'd be very welcome.
Uh, okay, let's get.
Let's get into the questions.
(02:59):
Um, firstly, what are some ofthe most exciting or high impact
ways that you see AItransforming recruitment from
job descriptions to candidatescreening and beyond?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
so I think the thing that I find most exciting is
that it's all for the taking andthe opportunities really for us
are endless.
If you've ever kind of heard mespeak or read any of the
articles that I've written, I'vesaid many, many times over,
often to the horror of some ofmy peers in the recruiting
industry, that recruiting isbroken and has been for a while,
(03:34):
and whether we choose to admitthat or not, I believe it's a
fact.
And so now the rise of AIallows us to take a really
honest view of what it reallylooks like and feels like for
those involved in recruiting andby that I don't just mean
recruiters, I mean the full 360view and really consider how we
(03:56):
bring the people first approachback to recruiting and human
resources and make sure that theAI that we're using meets the
needs of everybody involved.
So again, the recruiter, thecandidates, hiring managers, ops
, teams that might support you,finance departments, hr,
business partners everybody hasa specific need or demand on the
(04:20):
recruiting and the hiring thatwe do.
I believe that we've fallendown on that in the past by
fundamentally overcomplicatingour tech stacks and building
processes that follow twostructured workflows,
predominantly for financialreporting needs, but that really
don't allow for the ebbs andflows of human nature and the
(04:43):
needs and wants for thoseinvolved in the process.
So, to give you an example,we've recently been developing
agents to support us on ourscheduling activities and while
that isn't specifically excitinga notion, I mean let's be fair
it's a fairly obviousapplication of AI.
But in building it we reallywent deep and thought hard about
(05:05):
all the friction points forourselves and humans involved
and also the inefficiencies inthe process that a well-designed
AI solution can alleviate.
So one example of that was putout, actually, in a recent
report by Pearson called theReclaim the Clock, and it found
that generative AI could help USworkers reclaim nearly 78
(05:29):
million hours a week, which,when we put that into the
context of the busy work thatpeople are doing, is actually
pretty scary.
But when you go beyond justalleviating the pressures for
talent, experience, teams andcoordinators and the saving of
time and money for businesses,we also went and looked at the
(05:50):
accessibility options and how wecould ensure that we were being
fair and open to everybodythrough the AI that we were
building, fundamentally to getahead of any accessibility needs
and make sure that we'resetting candidates up for
success from the beginning.
In addition to that, we're alsonow looking at audio tools that
will help us bring our advertsto life and our postings to life
(06:13):
.
That will really help bring thecandidate into our world and
allow them to get a real lifeview of the role and the
requirements, but also that itcan factor in any questions and
answers that the candidate mighthave upfront.
So two small applications thatwe're looking at.
Again not enormously exciting,but I think when you look at it
(06:37):
from the human perspective andnot just the time saving and
efficiency, it actually thenbecomes more exciting for me.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Okay very good.
Regular listeners of this showwill know that I am not afraid
of a shameless plug.
So here comes a shameless plug.
Uh, please do check out therelated episode that I recently
did with brian adams over athappy dance, who talks about
some of this stuff as well.
Okay, continuing through.
I have I'm terrible for that.
I do that all the time, youknow my shameless plugs.
(07:07):
Um, okay, so, uh, you're astrong advocate for skills-based
hiring.
What does it take for anorganization to actually make
that shift, and how can ai helpremove biases baked in
traditional hiring processes?
You mentioned a moment ago thatyou guys are trying some pretty
impressive new things with ai.
(07:28):
A big concern that peoplealways has is who's, who's
created the ai and what?
What biases are there?
You know?
Is it a bunch of middle-classwhite dudes who created the code
in the first place andtherefore it's got inherent,
inherent biases?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
give us your take yeah, I, I am a huge, huge
advocate of skills-based hiringand obviously ai, but it's
certainly not easy.
It's not an easy task at alland I think really what needs to
happen is a total shift inattitudes around how we build
organizations, the careerframeworks and the way in which
(08:06):
we approach skilling andupskilling and mobilizing our
teams.
I think to your point, there'sbeen so much legacy and history
around.
You know you must have gone tothis college or you must have
had that degree, or you knowcome from this particular cohort
of skill sets or you knowemployers that it's really
(08:26):
difficult to break.
And so I think when you'rethinking about skills-based
hiring and how AI needs to comeinto, it really needs to start
with simplification, so reallybreaking down career structures
and frameworks.
And then, once you've done that,breaking down the jobs
themselves really to theminutiae kind of task level, you
(08:48):
really understanding what tasksand deliverables are within
every single role in yourorganization.
And then, once you've got a lineof sight of that again at the
micro level, you can reallystart to understand where AI can
help remove that human burden.
Once you understand, then, whatthe AI can take over, you can
(09:09):
really start to look at theskills that are needed for the
rest of the tasks, the piecesthat AI won't take over, and how
you can then use again AI todevelop those skills within your
current existing structures andteams.
And when we do that, we canreally try and move away from
the typical perception of thatexperience and education into
(09:32):
much more the fluid, changingcareer and job landscape where
skills continually evolve andemployees have new opportunities
that might once have never beenavailable to them.
But fundamentally, to succeedin any of those two spaces, we
really must rethink learning,skills and career development in
(09:54):
a holistic way and to yourpoint about.
You know shameless plugs.
At Pearson, we believe thatwe're leading that
transformation and that we'reuniquely positioned to help
skill the world and prepare, youknow, individuals and
organizations to help adapt andadvance and succeed through life
(10:16):
and through business.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
In 2025, being prepared to support your
employees during times of crisisis more vital than ever.
The Crisis Ready WorkplaceProgram, designed by Dr Bill
Howitt and brought to you inpartnership with HR News Canada
and HR Law Canada, and supportedby the HR Gazette, equips
professionals and leaders withthe knowledge, skills and tools
needed to effectively navigateworkplace crisis, ultimately
(10:42):
boosting employee well-being andenhancing organizational
performance.
Crisis-ready workplace willtake leaders beyond conventional
risk preparedness to redefinewhat it means to lead through
uncertainty.
Expect to dive deep intointeractive sessions,
groundbreaking strategies andtransformative insights designed
to prepare organizations forany challenge.
This comprehensive program ispre-approved for 14 hours of CPD
(11:06):
credits by HRPA, cphr and CPDInternational and empowers
leaders in crisis preparation,foundational knowledge and
supportive training.
Sign up today at crisisreadyca.
And now back to this episode ofthe HR Chat Show.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Okay, let's talk a little bit more about some of
the points you just raised amoment ago, if you don't mind.
We talk a lot on this show.
I mean this.
Hardly an episode goes by thesedays we're not talking about ai
in some fashion.
Um, I personally am morepessimistic than many people in
terms of what ai is bringing andwhat it means for for jobs.
(11:45):
I mean, just a few weeks ago,as we record this, uh, in the
middle of may, you had billgates saying we're looking at a
two-day work week for humanbeings because of everything
being replaced by ai.
Um, other other stats not frompearson, from other
organizations that I will notmention um suggest that by 2030,
30 of jobs that exist todaywill not be around in in 2030.
(12:07):
These things scare me, um, andalso the context here is, in
addition to doing the HR stuff,I also run a bunch of AI summits
in various places, so I get tolisten to lots of experts
talking about this, this, and itdoesn't make me feel much
better often.
Anyway, there is a questionhere somewhere.
My question, I guess, is whatare those skills, what are those
(12:29):
characteristics of human beingsthat you think will continue to
be valuable and continue to beattractive to potential
employers as AI continues atpace to replace a lot of tasks.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, so again, and not surprisingly, we have
actually looked into this in afair amount of detail and we've
also released a couple ofreports ourselves that speak
directly to this.
So the first one um is the powerskills um, which was more of an
employer-led um piece ofresearch which found that the
five most sought after skillstoday by us employers are
(13:07):
communication, customerleadership and collaboration
Sorry, the fifth one, problemsolving and the second one being
from the employee view, whichis the top two skills that
they're actively looking at,growing and prioritising in
their own development, areproblem solving and decision
making.
(13:27):
And interesting, when I kind ofplay those stats and those
reports back into my ownorganization, my own team, I can
honestly put my hand on myheart and say that what I look
for in a recruiter hascompletely shifted, in that I no
longer now need somebody whocan compile a strong Boolean
search or to be able to write anice funny, attractive advert,
(13:50):
but rather now I have a strongerlean towards finding candidates
with really good criticalthinking, you know, those people
who have the ability to discernand interpret information in a
different way.
Because, let's be honest, whenwe think about AI, it's pulling
from the internet and the phrasethat I always use with my team
is the internet is full of threethings truths, lies and half
(14:16):
truths, meaning truths spunthrough a particular perspective
, and or lens that a recruiternow needs to be able to to dig
into and really understand.
Um, you know the fact from thefiction.
Um.
The second piece that I thinkis important, not just for
recruiters but more broadly inall enterprises, is adaptability
(14:37):
, because, as you just said, thelandscape is changing and at
pace, and I think a level ofcuriosity and resilience and
desire to lean into the change,for a force of positive versus
being scared of it, really iswhat's going to make the
difference for a lot oforganisations and individuals
(14:59):
when it comes to their owncareers.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, very good.
I have the word disrupt in mynext question, which is good
considering some of the otherthings I get up to when it comes
to overhauling legacyrecruitment systems.
Jen, where do you see thebiggest resistance and what
advice would you give to leaderswho are nervous about
disrupting the way things havealways been done?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
so I think for me this is a almost a multi-faceted
answer in that when we considerour legacy systems, there's a
lot of resistance that becauseyou know, again, it falls into
the old school notion of onesource of truth.
Or, you know, sometimes, aseven recruiter's leaders, we
don't have control over whatlegacy systems we use.
(15:46):
You know you're either an SAPhouse or an Oracle house or you
know one of the others.
So quite often we don't havethe budget or the influence or
the know-how to move people awayfrom those, or the influence or
the know-how to move peopleaway from those.
But I think we need toreaddress our own thinking that
I don't actually believe thelegacy systems are the problem,
(16:06):
because so much of the AI that'sout there now can stick
separately.
So we need to move away fromthat notion of one source of
truth.
There's so many different toolsthat are just plugins, browser
extensions of truth, and youknow there's so many different
tools that are just plugins.
You know crown extension,browser extensions, um, and so
(16:27):
for me, when I think about it inits broadest sense, it's
actually more around attitudeand pace.
Um and you just mentioned itthere in the question before
last, about what we've beenhearing on ai and taking our
jobs and I think, sadly, that isthe message that has hit
recruiters that you know AI iscoming for you, it's going to
take your job.
And so now, all of a sudden,we're trying to pivot that
(16:47):
language because it, you know,suits us to some degree, that we
want recruiters using the AIbecause we can get them to be
more effective and efficient.
But yet, in the same time, allthey're hearing is, if I get
better at this and I use this ai, my job will go away.
And so you know, those twomessages it's going to take your
job and it's going to make yourlife easier are a conflict.
(17:09):
And now it's an uphill battlefor anybody trying to disrupt
their teams with ai to get themto only hear that first message
and be curious and lean into itand get on board.
That for me, I think, is goingto be the biggest challenge.
Um, and that's the piece thatreally needs to help, uh, to
(17:30):
shift, for us to really make thedifference in recruiting.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I'd be keen to hear, uh, your experiences Pearson.
Have you seen the team thathandles recruiting for Pearson
decline in numbers because AI isreplacing a bunch of those
roles?
Are you actually seeing thesame sorts of numbers of staff
performing those duties?
Or maybe you've even increasednumbers because you're being way
(17:55):
more productive by beingaugmented by the AI?
What's the experience overthere?
Speaker 3 (17:59):
yeah, so.
So my team has reduced by 31percent uh year on year, from
march last year to march thisyear, and that's predominantly,
however, in more of our techexperience team I'm not sorry,
not tech experience our talentexperience team, and so you know
the scheduling, the onboarding,the conversion, so again that
(18:20):
real transactional kind of tasklevel that we've eliminated
through the agents that we'vedeployed.
Conversely, actually, ourrecruiters are busier than ever,
so it is a really busy time forus.
You know.
Obviously our business, likeevery other business, is leaning
into AI.
I think that the attitude ofthe recruiters is definitely
(18:42):
getting on board, particularlythose in the tech space.
So my tech recruiters and myproduct recruiters are very
excited about everything thatwe're going on and they're the
first to to get in and play withthings.
Um, some of the you know some ofthe other teams are a little
bit slower on the uptake, but Ithink you know, as we start to
launch things like promptlibraries and, you know, little
(19:05):
communities that we've got goinginternally on our sharepoint
site where they can see and hearfrom other recruiters in in the
team how they're deploying umai and how it is actually
helping them to do a better joband to do the stuff that they
really want to do.
I think recruiters for such along time talk about the reason
(19:28):
that they do the job is becausethey love to connect with people
and they like to add value, butyet so much of the job is admin
and not face not face to facewith people.
Um, I'm continually reiteratingthe message of this is a value
driver for you guys.
Like you've always asked for aseat at the table, get this
(19:49):
stuff off your plate.
Be more effective in the waythat you do it and then you can
do the work that really adds thevalue.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You can be the influencer and the partner that
you truly want to be to to thebusiness just a quick follow-up
to that um and I am consciouswe've got to wrap up in a couple
of minutes with ai replacing somany of those more mundane
tasks that that recruitingprofessionals, the professionals
were doing previously.
Is that affecting commission?
Our commission is going downbecause um part of the
(20:16):
commission is not just landing acandidate, it's doing all that
other stuff.
Or are we seeing thoseremaining about the same?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
so we don't.
We don't pay commissions forour recruiters.
They're all on base salaries.
Um, we, my chro and I have kindof bounced the idea around
previously about doing that,given that we're, you know, a
high performing culture.
And this is just my humbleopinion by the way, this is not
a person view necessarily.
I actually think havingcommissions on in-house teams
(20:43):
drives the wrong behavior,because then it comes about the
financial versus the dedicationto the delivery of the business
mission.
And for me I would alwaysrather recruit.
To say to a hiring manager giveme one more week, don't hire
that person, I know I can findyou someone better.
That's the kind of recruiter Iwant in my team versus I just
(21:04):
want to get this right, closeand get off my plate.
So I honestly couldn't answerthe commission piece because my
team are not aligned there.
I know that there's a lot offairly big agencies in the UK
right now closing, so maybethat's an indication and just
finally for today, jen, how canour listeners connect with you?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
so maybe that's linkedin you and I already
connected, by the way.
Thank you very much.
Uh, maybe it's email address.
Maybe you're super cool and allover tiktok and places.
And, of course, how can theylearn more about?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
pearson.
So I um, I'm on linkedin as asyou would expect, so that would
be the best place to find me andI'm not don't consider myself
an influencer, I'm not reallybig in the in the social space,
and Pearsonjobs is where you cancome and learn more about us
and who we are and what we do,and hopefully find yourself an
(21:57):
outside of the table one dayexcellent and as always, of
course, listeners.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
The links will be in the show notes if your pencil
broke when you're trying towrite down all that information.
Jen, that just leaves me to sayfor today thank you very much
for being my guest on thisepisode of the hr chat show
thank you so much for having me.
I've really enjoyed our chatgood, and then I'm going to
bother you about doing more inthe future and listeners as
(22:23):
always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work.
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visit.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
HRGazettecom.
Welcome to another episode ofthe HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannum, and in
this episode, we're going totalk about ways that AI is
transforming recruitment.
And joining me on the show forthe first time is Jennifer
Cunningham, global VP of GlobalTalent Acquisition over at
(00:44):
Pearson.
Jen brings over 20 years ofexperience in recruiting and HR
across diverse industries,starting as a store manager at
McDonald's to working her way upto Adidas and now leading at
Pearson.
Hey, jen, welcome to the showtoday.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I'm all good, Bill.
Thanks for having me.
How are you?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I am wonderful.
The sun is shining.
I'm in a very good mood.
You've caught me on a great day.
Let's have lots of fun here.
Beyond my reintroduction just amoment ago, Jen, why don't you
start by taking a couple ofminutes, telling our listeners a
bit about yourself, your careerbackground and what gets you up
in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:19):
OK, happy to.
So I'm Jen Cunningham.
Preferred Jen versus Jennifer.
Okay, happy to, so I'm JennyCunningham.
Preferred Jenny versus Jennifer, Sadly.
As a youngster I spent muchtime in hospital with severe
asthma, and so Jennifer alwaysreminds me of being woken up in
the middle of the night withnurses asking me to take
nebulizers.
So I've kind of had an allergicreaction to Jennifer these days
(01:40):
.
Based in sunny Manchester inthe United Kingdom, Mancunian,
born and bred yes, I am a blue,so I'm on the right side of the
city, although we haven't beendoing particularly great this
season.
I had to own that I've spentmost of my life here in
Manchester, outside of fiveyears living in Germany in the
(02:02):
depths of Bavaria, which isfabulous.
What gets me up in the morningis my two boys massive age
difference.
I have a 10-year-old and a23-year-old, so a fully grown
man.
In my house I'm renovating mybeautiful Georgian property, so
that's where I spend most of mytime.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Very good.
So Jen, not Jennifer, georgianproperty, two lovely boys.
You're blue, um, which probablynegates you joining us at
disrupt manchester in septemberbecause it's at the morson
recruitment office andapparently overlooks old
trafford, so you might not wantto go to that, but if you like
to come, you'd be very welcome.
Uh, okay, let's get.
Let's get into the questions.
(02:59):
Um, firstly, what are some ofthe most exciting or high impact
ways that you see AItransforming recruitment from
job descriptions to candidatescreening and beyond?
Speaker 3 (03:11):
so I think the thing that I find most exciting is
that it's all for the taking andthe opportunities really for us
are endless.
If you've ever kind of heard mespeak or read any of the
articles that I've written, I'vesaid many, many times over,
often to the horror of some ofmy peers in the recruiting
industry, that recruiting isbroken and has been for a while,
(03:34):
and whether we choose to admitthat or not, I believe it's a
fact.
And so now the rise of AIallows us to take a really
honest view of what it reallylooks like and feels like for
those involved in recruiting andby that I don't just mean
recruiters, I mean the full 360view and really consider how we
(03:56):
bring the people first approachback to recruiting and human
resources and make sure that theAI that we're using meets the
needs of everybody involved.
So again, the recruiter, thecandidates, hiring managers, ops
, teams that might support you,finance departments, hr,
business partners everybody hasa specific need or demand on the
(04:20):
recruiting and the hiring thatwe do.
I believe that we've fallendown on that in the past by
fundamentally overcomplicatingour tech stacks and building
processes that follow twostructured workflows,
predominantly for financialreporting needs, but that really
don't allow for the ebbs andflows of human nature and the
(04:43):
needs and wants for thoseinvolved in the process.
So, to give you an example,we've recently been developing
agents to support us on ourscheduling activities and while
that isn't specifically excitinga notion, I mean let's be fair
it's a fairly obviousapplication of AI.
But in building it we reallywent deep and thought hard about
(05:05):
all the friction points forourselves and humans involved
and also the inefficiencies inthe process that a well-designed
AI solution can alleviate.
So one example of that was putout, actually, in a recent
report by Pearson called theReclaim the Clock, and it found
that generative AI could help USworkers reclaim nearly 78
(05:29):
million hours a week, which,when we put that into the
context of the busy work thatpeople are doing, is actually
pretty scary.
But when you go beyond justalleviating the pressures for
talent, experience, teams andcoordinators and the saving of
time and money for businesses,we also went and looked at the
(05:50):
accessibility options and how wecould ensure that we were being
fair and open to everybodythrough the AI that we were
building, fundamentally to getahead of any accessibility needs
and make sure that we'resetting candidates up for
success from the beginning.
In addition to that, we're alsonow looking at audio tools that
will help us bring our advertsto life and our postings to life
(06:13):
.
That will really help bring thecandidate into our world and
allow them to get a real lifeview of the role and the
requirements, but also that itcan factor in any questions and
answers that the candidate mighthave upfront.
So two small applications thatwe're looking at.
Again not enormously exciting,but I think when you look at it
(06:37):
from the human perspective andnot just the time saving and
efficiency, it actually thenbecomes more exciting for me.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Okay very good.
Regular listeners of this showwill know that I am not afraid
of a shameless plug.
So here comes a shameless plug.
Uh, please do check out therelated episode that I recently
did with brian adams over athappy dance, who talks about
some of this stuff as well.
Okay, continuing through.
I have I'm terrible for that.
I do that all the time, youknow my shameless plugs.
(07:07):
Um, okay, so, uh, you're astrong advocate for skills-based
hiring.
What does it take for anorganization to actually make
that shift, and how can ai helpremove biases baked in
traditional hiring processes?
You mentioned a moment ago thatyou guys are trying some pretty
impressive new things with ai.
(07:28):
A big concern that peoplealways has is who's, who's
created the ai and what?
What biases are there?
You know?
Is it a bunch of middle-classwhite dudes who created the code
in the first place andtherefore it's got inherent,
inherent biases?
Speaker 3 (07:42):
give us your take yeah, I, I am a huge, huge
advocate of skills-based hiringand obviously ai, but it's
certainly not easy.
It's not an easy task at alland I think really what needs to
happen is a total shift inattitudes around how we build
organizations, the careerframeworks and the way in which
(08:06):
we approach skilling andupskilling and mobilizing our
teams.
I think to your point, there'sbeen so much legacy and history
around.
You know you must have gone tothis college or you must have
had that degree, or you knowcome from this particular cohort
of skill sets or you knowemployers that it's really
(08:26):
difficult to break.
And so I think when you'rethinking about skills-based
hiring and how AI needs to comeinto, it really needs to start
with simplification, so reallybreaking down career structures
and frameworks.
And then, once you've done that,breaking down the jobs
themselves really to theminutiae kind of task level, you
(08:48):
really understanding what tasksand deliverables are within
every single role in yourorganization.
And then, once you've got a lineof sight of that again at the
micro level, you can reallystart to understand where AI can
help remove that human burden.
Once you understand, then, whatthe AI can take over, you can
(09:09):
really start to look at theskills that are needed for the
rest of the tasks, the piecesthat AI won't take over, and how
you can then use again AI todevelop those skills within your
current existing structures andteams.
And when we do that, we canreally try and move away from
the typical perception of thatexperience and education into
(09:32):
much more the fluid, changingcareer and job landscape where
skills continually evolve andemployees have new opportunities
that might once have never beenavailable to them.
But fundamentally, to succeedin any of those two spaces, we
really must rethink learning,skills and career development in
(09:54):
a holistic way and to yourpoint about.
You know shameless plugs.
At Pearson, we believe thatwe're leading that
transformation and that we'reuniquely positioned to help
skill the world and prepare, youknow, individuals and
organizations to help adapt andadvance and succeed through life
(10:16):
and through business.
Speaker 5 (10:19):
In 2025, being prepared to support your
employees during times of crisisis more vital than ever.
The Crisis Ready WorkplaceProgram, designed by Dr Bill
Howitt and brought to you inpartnership with HR News Canada
and HR Law Canada, and supportedby the HR Gazette, equips
professionals and leaders withthe knowledge, skills and tools
needed to effectively navigateworkplace crisis, ultimately
(10:42):
boosting employee well-being andenhancing organizational
performance.
Crisis-ready workplace willtake leaders beyond conventional
risk preparedness to redefinewhat it means to lead through
uncertainty.
Expect to dive deep intointeractive sessions,
groundbreaking strategies andtransformative insights designed
to prepare organizations forany challenge.
This comprehensive program ispre-approved for 14 hours of CPD
(11:06):
credits by HRPA, cphr and CPDInternational and empowers
leaders in crisis preparation,foundational knowledge and
supportive training.
Sign up today at crisisreadyca.
And now back to this episode ofthe HR Chat Show.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Okay, let's talk a little bit more about some of
the points you just raised amoment ago, if you don't mind.
We talk a lot on this show.
I mean this.
Hardly an episode goes by thesedays we're not talking about ai
in some fashion.
Um, I personally am morepessimistic than many people in
terms of what ai is bringing andwhat it means for for jobs.
(11:45):
I mean, just a few weeks ago,as we record this, uh, in the
middle of may, you had billgates saying we're looking at a
two-day work week for humanbeings because of everything
being replaced by ai.
Um, other other stats not frompearson, from other
organizations that I will notmention um suggest that by 2030,
30 of jobs that exist todaywill not be around in in 2030.
(12:07):
These things scare me, um, andalso the context here is, in
addition to doing the HR stuff,I also run a bunch of AI summits
in various places, so I get tolisten to lots of experts
talking about this, this, and itdoesn't make me feel much
better often.
Anyway, there is a questionhere somewhere.
My question, I guess, is whatare those skills, what are those
(12:29):
characteristics of human beingsthat you think will continue to
be valuable and continue to beattractive to potential
employers as AI continues atpace to replace a lot of tasks.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah, so again, and not surprisingly, we have
actually looked into this in afair amount of detail and we've
also released a couple ofreports ourselves that speak
directly to this.
So the first one um is the powerskills um, which was more of an
employer-led um piece ofresearch which found that the
five most sought after skillstoday by us employers are
(13:07):
communication, customerleadership and collaboration
Sorry, the fifth one, problemsolving and the second one being
from the employee view, whichis the top two skills that
they're actively looking at,growing and prioritising in
their own development, areproblem solving and decision
making.
(13:27):
And interesting, when I kind ofplay those stats and those
reports back into my ownorganization, my own team, I can
honestly put my hand on myheart and say that what I look
for in a recruiter hascompletely shifted, in that I no
longer now need somebody whocan compile a strong Boolean
search or to be able to write anice funny, attractive advert,
(13:50):
but rather now I have a strongerlean towards finding candidates
with really good criticalthinking, you know, those people
who have the ability to discernand interpret information in a
different way.
Because, let's be honest, whenwe think about AI, it's pulling
from the internet and the phrasethat I always use with my team
is the internet is full of threethings truths, lies and half
(14:16):
truths, meaning truths spunthrough a particular perspective
, and or lens that a recruiternow needs to be able to to dig
into and really understand.
Um, you know the fact from thefiction.
Um.
The second piece that I thinkis important, not just for
recruiters but more broadly inall enterprises, is adaptability
(14:37):
, because, as you just said, thelandscape is changing and at
pace, and I think a level ofcuriosity and resilience and
desire to lean into the change,for a force of positive versus
being scared of it, really iswhat's going to make the
difference for a lot oforganisations and individuals
(14:59):
when it comes to their owncareers.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Okay, very good.
I have the word disrupt in mynext question, which is good
considering some of the otherthings I get up to when it comes
to overhauling legacyrecruitment systems.
Jen, where do you see thebiggest resistance and what
advice would you give to leaderswho are nervous about
disrupting the way things havealways been done?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
so I think for me this is a almost a multi-faceted
answer in that when we considerour legacy systems, there's a
lot of resistance that becauseyou know, again, it falls into
the old school notion of onesource of truth.
Or, you know, sometimes, aseven recruiter's leaders, we
don't have control over whatlegacy systems we use.
(15:46):
You know you're either an SAPhouse or an Oracle house or you
know one of the others.
So quite often we don't havethe budget or the influence or
the know-how to move people awayfrom those, or the influence or
the know-how to move peopleaway from those.
But I think we need toreaddress our own thinking that
I don't actually believe thelegacy systems are the problem,
(16:06):
because so much of the AI that'sout there now can stick
separately.
So we need to move away fromthat notion of one source of
truth.
There's so many different toolsthat are just plugins, browser
extensions of truth, and youknow there's so many different
tools that are just plugins.
You know crown extension,browser extensions, um, and so
(16:27):
for me, when I think about it inits broadest sense, it's
actually more around attitudeand pace.
Um and you just mentioned itthere in the question before
last, about what we've beenhearing on ai and taking our
jobs and I think, sadly, that isthe message that has hit
recruiters that you know AI iscoming for you, it's going to
take your job.
And so now, all of a sudden,we're trying to pivot that
(16:47):
language because it, you know,suits us to some degree, that we
want recruiters using the AIbecause we can get them to be
more effective and efficient.
But yet, in the same time, allthey're hearing is, if I get
better at this and I use this ai, my job will go away.
And so you know, those twomessages it's going to take your
job and it's going to make yourlife easier are a conflict.
(17:09):
And now it's an uphill battlefor anybody trying to disrupt
their teams with ai to get themto only hear that first message
and be curious and lean into itand get on board.
That for me, I think, is goingto be the biggest challenge.
Um, and that's the piece thatreally needs to help, uh, to
(17:30):
shift, for us to really make thedifference in recruiting.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
I'd be keen to hear, uh, your experiences Pearson.
Have you seen the team thathandles recruiting for Pearson
decline in numbers because AI isreplacing a bunch of those
roles?
Are you actually seeing thesame sorts of numbers of staff
performing those duties?
Or maybe you've even increasednumbers because you're being way
(17:55):
more productive by beingaugmented by the AI?
What's the experience overthere?
Speaker 3 (17:59):
yeah, so.
So my team has reduced by 31percent uh year on year, from
march last year to march thisyear, and that's predominantly,
however, in more of our techexperience team I'm not sorry,
not tech experience our talentexperience team, and so you know
the scheduling, the onboarding,the conversion, so again that
(18:20):
real transactional kind of tasklevel that we've eliminated
through the agents that we'vedeployed.
Conversely, actually, ourrecruiters are busier than ever,
so it is a really busy time forus.
You know.
Obviously our business, likeevery other business, is leaning
into AI.
I think that the attitude ofthe recruiters is definitely
(18:42):
getting on board, particularlythose in the tech space.
So my tech recruiters and myproduct recruiters are very
excited about everything thatwe're going on and they're the
first to to get in and play withthings.
Um, some of the you know some ofthe other teams are a little
bit slower on the uptake, but Ithink you know, as we start to
launch things like promptlibraries and, you know, little
(19:05):
communities that we've got goinginternally on our sharepoint
site where they can see and hearfrom other recruiters in in the
team how they're deploying umai and how it is actually
helping them to do a better joband to do the stuff that they
really want to do.
I think recruiters for such along time talk about the reason
(19:28):
that they do the job is becausethey love to connect with people
and they like to add value, butyet so much of the job is admin
and not face not face to facewith people.
Um, I'm continually reiteratingthe message of this is a value
driver for you guys.
Like you've always asked for aseat at the table, get this
(19:49):
stuff off your plate.
Be more effective in the waythat you do it and then you can
do the work that really adds thevalue.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
You can be the influencer and the partner that
you truly want to be to to thebusiness just a quick follow-up
to that um and I am consciouswe've got to wrap up in a couple
of minutes with ai replacing somany of those more mundane
tasks that that recruitingprofessionals, the professionals
were doing previously.
Is that affecting commission?
Our commission is going downbecause um part of the
(20:16):
commission is not just landing acandidate, it's doing all that
other stuff.
Or are we seeing thoseremaining about the same?
Speaker 3 (20:22):
so we don't.
We don't pay commissions forour recruiters.
They're all on base salaries.
Um, we, my chro and I have kindof bounced the idea around
previously about doing that,given that we're, you know, a
high performing culture.
And this is just my humbleopinion by the way, this is not
a person view necessarily.
I actually think havingcommissions on in-house teams
(20:43):
drives the wrong behavior,because then it comes about the
financial versus the dedicationto the delivery of the business
mission.
And for me I would alwaysrather recruit.
To say to a hiring manager giveme one more week, don't hire
that person, I know I can findyou someone better.
That's the kind of recruiter Iwant in my team versus I just
(21:04):
want to get this right, closeand get off my plate.
So I honestly couldn't answerthe commission piece because my
team are not aligned there.
I know that there's a lot offairly big agencies in the UK
right now closing, so maybethat's an indication and just
finally for today, jen, how canour listeners connect with you?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
so maybe that's linkedin you and I already
connected, by the way.
Thank you very much.
Uh, maybe it's email address.
Maybe you're super cool and allover tiktok and places.
And, of course, how can theylearn more about?
Speaker 3 (21:34):
pearson.
So I um, I'm on linkedin as asyou would expect, so that would
be the best place to find me andI'm not don't consider myself
an influencer, I'm not reallybig in the in the social space,
and Pearsonjobs is where you cancome and learn more about us
and who we are and what we do,and hopefully find yourself an
(21:57):
outside of the table one dayexcellent and as always, of
course, listeners.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
The links will be in the show notes if your pencil
broke when you're trying towrite down all that information.
Jen, that just leaves me to sayfor today thank you very much
for being my guest on thisepisode of the hr chat show
thank you so much for having me.
I've really enjoyed our chatgood, and then I'm going to
bother you about doing more inthe future and listeners as
(22:23):
always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work.
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.