May 14, 2025 • 43 mins
The workplace has fundamentally transformed, dramatically increasing the emotional demands on leaders at all levels. From managing virtual teams to navigating workforce polarization, today's leaders face unprecedented challenges that require a new set of emotional skills to thrive.
Executive coach and leadership strategist Dina Denham-Smith joins Bob Goodwin to discuss her new book, "Emotionally Charged: How to Lead in the New World of Work," revealing how emotions serve as critical data for effective leadership. Drawing from over 25 years of experience coaching senior executives at companies like Adobe, Netflix, and Goldman Sachs, Dina breaks down the misconceptions that prevent leaders from harnessing the power of emotions in the workplace.
Dina and Bob explore the powerful "beach ball" analogy that illustrates what happens when emotions are suppressed rather than processed appropriately. Dina explains how leaders navigate the "authenticity paradox" – being genuine enough to build trust while maintaining appropriate professional boundaries. She provides practical steps for developing emotional intelligence, from recognizing physical sensations that signal emotional responses to identifying specific emotions beyond simplistic categories.
The conversation tackles the current leadership landscape, including how some high-profile CEOs are taking harder stances toward employees in today's tighter labor market. Dina offers compelling counterarguments, explaining why emotionally intelligent leadership remains crucial for long-term performance and engagement. We also discuss the opportunity AI presents to focus more deeply on the human aspects of leadership that technology cannot replicate.
Whether you're struggling with burnout, managing team conflicts, or simply looking to enhance your leadership effectiveness, this episode offers science-backed insights and practical strategies to develop the emotional skills essential for today's complex workplace challenges.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
HRGazettecom.
Hey everybody, this is BobGoodwin and welcome to
(00:24):
anotherazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to
another episode of HR Chat.
I want to thank my good friendBill Bannum at HR Gazette for
allowing me to guest host here alittle bit.
And today's guest I am veryexcited about it's Dina
Denham-Smith, and Dina is anexecutive coach and leadership
strategist with over 25 years ofexperience helping senior
(00:45):
leaders excel.
Formerly an EVP at a privateequity firm, as well as the
principal consultant at PwC,she's worked with top brands
like Adobe, netflix, goldmanSachs, maybe companies you've
heard of but Dean is also afrequent contributor to Harvard
Business Review and Forbes andis the author of a new book
called Emotionally Charged howto Lead in the New World of.
(01:09):
Work and we're going to spend alittle bit of time talking about
that.
She holds an MBA from theUniversity of Michigan sorry
Ohio State people and iscertified by the International
Coaching Federation in theEuropean Mentoring and Coaching
Council, dina welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Thank you, it's so good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, it's so good to have you.
So I wanted to just sort ofjump into the book because it
just launched right.
When did the book drop it?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
did?
It's been out for gosh, I think, three weeks today.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, okay, and we're recording this on March 12th,
so in March, so that's great ormaybe late February.
So tell us just a little bitabout the book, what it's about
and maybe why the book.
Why, now, what sort of led youto co-authored this?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Sure.
So, as you mentioned, I'm anexecutive coach, and so I really
have a first row seat to thechallenges that leaders and
teams are experiencing.
The challenges that leaders andteams are experiencing and what
I noticed was what we all see,right, is that the work world
has fundamentally changed, butthe particular twist on it is
(02:17):
that the changes that we've allwitnessed and are still evolving
into have dramaticallyincreased the emotional demands
on leaders.
So communicating you know,using virtual communication
technologies, it's harder tobuild trust and motivate teams.
(02:38):
We have a lot of fear in theworkforce right now, due to the
acceleration of AI, leaders aretasked with championing the
implementation of newtechnologies while managing
those fears.
We have an increasingly diverseand polarized workforce, so
leaders are managing moreconflict.
(02:59):
And, last but not least, youknow, really due to the pandemic
, leaders employees'expectations for their leaders
are really higher than ever.
You know.
The net of this is theemotional demands on leaders are
at a much heightened state, andthey haven't been equipped with
the skills or resources tomanage these demands, and it's
(03:23):
one of the reasons why we havesuch a stressed and burned out
leader population.
And so the book is reallyproven strategies and techniques
and tools for helping leadersmanage all of these new demands
that they can perform both athigh levels as well as maintain
(03:43):
their own wellbeing.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, no, I think it's great and I'm genuinely
excited to have you on thisepisode, because I think what
you're talking about really kindof strikes at the humanity that
all of us experience.
You know many things that youwere just talking about, whether
you know it's the virtual worldor AI or whatever you know.
We talk about bringing yourwhole self to work.
People do right, and whilethose things are happening at
(04:11):
work, there's all this stuffthat's not happening at work,
with aging parents, kids aregoing off the rails, you know
finances, relationships, healthissues, politics I mean like
everything that's going on.
People are just feeling a tonof stress, and leaders are not
exempt from that one.
(04:31):
So there's a bit ofself-awareness of what am I
feeling, but then also theempathy of what people that I'm
charged with leading are alsofeeling.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, you know.
The only, the only point Iwould make there is you know,
bring your whole self to work isa really nice catchphrase, but
at the end of the day,organizations have a number of
display rules and you know whichis sort of the unwritten code
about which emotions you show,how much you show them when you
(05:05):
show them, and suppressingemotions that are not considered
good or acceptable and evokingthe ones that are appreciated in
your organization.
This is emotional labor, andleaders need to do a ton of that
(05:26):
to perform their roles.
And so I think what you'resaying is people are whole,
right, and so all of thosestresses of home come to work
and all of the stresses of workalso end up at home.
Right, it's a very full circlething.
But organizations have all ofthese display rules that lead
(05:48):
people to hide, ignore, suppressemotions, and this can have
some bad outcomes.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, so I remember in another conversation you and
I have had talking about beachballs.
Can you talk about beach balls?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes, I can talk about beach balls.
So beach balls are an analogythat we use in the book to sort
of explain what happens when youpush your emotions under the
surface.
So I want you to imagine likeyou're in the pool or you're in
the ocean or whatever, and youhave a beach ball, and you take
(06:25):
that beach ball, which is anemotion you do not want to feel,
and you shove it under thewater.
Well, you can do that, but itdoes take effort, right, and
inevitably more situations comealong in your life or at work
that have emotional demands ortrigger negative emotions in you
(06:45):
, and so you also take thatbeach ball of emotion and try to
shove that under the surfacetoo.
Well, the effort increases andat some point, right, that beach
ball of emotion is going to popout.
It pops out typically at aninconvenient time, and
oftentimes it hits somebody inthe face, right.
(07:07):
And so this really is ananalogy for what happens when we
take emotions that, forwhatever reason, we've decided
to sort of push them away, atsome point they do come out.
You can't hold them under thatsurface line for forever, and
(07:28):
this is just like one of themany reasons why understanding
our emotions and processing themand inviting them into the
workplace is so important.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Well, and then I picked up on I hadn't heard you
say it quite this way before,but you know the the emotions
that we're allowed to have ondisplay, and so if it's an
emotion that's not acceptable,right Then whether I might want
to feel, in fact, maybe like Ilike feeling that emotion, but
it's not one that's acceptableto have on display at work or
(08:04):
for someone at my level in thecompany, or however it's
perceived or contextualized.
So I need to push that down,and so I'm wondering if it feels
related to.
It seems like it might be aboutkind of authenticity.
Vulnerability would be termsthat are quite in vogue these
(08:24):
days.
They might be easier to talkabout than to actually act on.
But where does authenticity,where does vulnerability start
to fit into this conversationabout emotions that could be,
maybe should be, on display?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right, right, and what we're talking about really
is emotional labor, right, andsometimes it is about
suppressing certain emotions andother times it's about evoking
ones.
There was an article justrecently and it's all about how,
you know, employees feel likethey have to laugh at a leader's
jokes and even if you don'tthink it's very funny, that
(08:59):
that's an example.
Well, leaders in their roles,they need to do a lot of the
emotional labor to perform theirrole.
So let me give you a couple ofquick examples and then we'll
talk about vulnerability andauthenticity.
So one example for a leaderwould be like they wake up on
(09:19):
the wrong side of the bed orthey're exhausted, but they need
to go into a team meeting andsort of be peppy, right To
motivate the team to, you know,go the final mile on a big
project, or they're feelingtotally burnt out, they've had a
horrible day, but an employeecomes in to talk to them about a
(09:42):
challenge and they need toexpress a lot of empathy when
meanwhile you know they coulduse some selves.
These are just very basicexamples, but how this connects
to authenticity, right, is thereis this expectation, especially
for leaders, that they be human, right, that they be authentic.
(10:05):
But then if they express toomuch authenticity, right, they
run this risk of losingcredibility.
And so this is really thisauthenticity paradox, right,
it's like a Goldilocks situation.
It needs to be just the rightamount.
This, again, is emotional labor, right, because you are
(10:27):
purposefully managing youremotions.
This requires, like, cognitiveeffort to show up in the right
way.
So that is one of theintersections there with
emotional labor and leadershipand authenticity.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So if we thought about this as like being on a
sliding scale kind of a thingwould you be encouraging your
coaching clients to kind ofslide more towards authenticity
if they seem to be more reservedor have grown up in an
environment where that wasn'tthe kind of thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Generally speaking, yes, in that you know leaders,
actions are more powerful thantheir words.
So saying you can bring yourwhole self to this team, when
someone is really shut down,like, people are reading your
behaviors, behaviors there, youknow they, they listen in part
(11:29):
to your words and so, um, thatwon't fly.
And we know that teams wherethere is more um sort of
authentic expression of emotionsand personalities, these teams
are more cohesive, they performat higher levels.
So there are compelling reasons, but sometimes it's simply not
(11:50):
safe, even when you are theleader, to show all of what
makes you authentic right Likeof what makes you authentic
right Like.
I don't think anybody reallymeans it when they say bring
your whole self to work, allright.
So no, no.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I agree, and I mean that's why we call it emotional
intelligence Like you need tohave discretion, right, you need
to be able to exercise judgment.
I think what you know, yourwork, your work does is it
allows people to understandbetter how this can be an
enabler, right, and unleash thepower in some teams where we do
(12:32):
acknowledge that there's thiswhole human side.
We're not just work-producingunits, right, but I may not need
to show up to that same, youknow project, you know last push
and talk about how my marriageis in a shambles and I'm a mess
today or whatever, right, thatmay not be the right venue for
that level of authenticity,right?
(12:53):
So you know, we talked a littlebit about like now, it's like a
really important time for abook like this to come out Now.
When did you start working onit?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We started working on it.
I have a co-author that's whyI'm using the word we and her
name is Dr Alicia Grandy, andshe heads up the org psych
department at Penn State and westarted working on it a good two
and a half years ago, maybeeven more.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Now, that's what I thought.
The reason I ask is, if we windthe clock back, you know, we
might have things like the greatresignation, quiet quitting.
Might have things like thegreat resignation, quiet
quitting.
You know the if I can say itquite this way the balance of
power was more on the labor sideof the equation, more with
workers who had a lot morechoices.
As you and I have thisconversation today, it's a
(13:52):
pretty tight labor market,particularly for, you know,
white collar, professional kindsof people.
And you know we see people likeJamie Dimon, you know, cursing
at the event, like just get backto work, get back to the office
.
I'm tired of playing games withpeople.
You know Mark Zuckerberg beingon, they were just going to
(14:13):
whack.
You know all of our lowperformers and people are like
whoa, dude, I'm not a lowperformer.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
The Scarlet Letter, but no, thank you.
It feels like, you know, thedynamic has shifted back towards
management and also I mean thisis a separate but related topic
with all the inclusion,diversity, equity conversation,
those are being dialed back, ifnot shut down.
So it feels like that theemotional sensitivity right this
(14:51):
minute is actually dialing backsome.
Do you see that, or do you seeit differently?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Oh, yes, yes, I see it across sectors, absolutely.
I know we're both here in theUnited States and so we're
seeing a lot of lack ofsensitivity to people's humanity
and lives in government jobswhich used to be considered safe
(15:23):
.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah.
So I guess my question issometimes we follow these big
name CEOs, celebrity CEOs likewell gosh.
I guess if these people are outthere, you're kind of operating
like this.
Maybe I should too.
I don't think it's a great wayto operate.
I think they're doing theircompany brands a lot of harm.
(15:52):
I think people have memories ofhow they were treated.
How would you talk to theseCEOs who are just taking a
really hard line my way or thehighway and don't seem to be
exhibiting a lot of emotionalintelligence or putting forward
a lot of emotional labor?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, well, gosh, I would have a few, probably a few
choice words, but the argumentI would try to create for them
it goes along the lines of whatyou said.
People have memories.
What comes around goes around.
The power will shift again andit goes back to this, like
wonderful Maya Angelou quote,right, like people don't
(16:29):
remember what you said, but theyremember how you felt.
And so if you, you know, andpeople, at the end of the day,
need to put food on the table sothey may stick around, you know
, while you're up there, kind oflike swinging your power around
, but you are not going to getthe very best out of that person
, right?
They will be more disengaged,right, and that's going to hit
(16:53):
your performance, it's going tohit your productivity, it's
going to hit the bottom line,and so I think that's really key
to understand.
People do not like feeling likereplaceable parts in a giant cog
, and I'd say, furthermore, youknow this return to the office,
(17:15):
like gosh, how much moreresearch do we need that working
remotely actually can work?
Sure, there are benefits tohaving people together in a
common space.
I see that and I know thoseexist.
But there's also really strongbenefits to having people have a
(17:37):
little more flexibility and theability to work remotely,
especially for some people, andso when I see leaders taking
this hard line stance, you knowwhat I think about is how
autonomy is such a basic humanneed, and you know these leaders
at the top right they're allabout autonomy and control and
(18:00):
they understand how importantthat is.
They need to feed their own,but they're afraid of giving it
to other people Like.
I really think this is whatthis is ultimately at the base
of it about is control issues.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh, this is awesome.
So, so let's, cause I'mprobably we're probably not
gonna be able to fix Jamiediamond and Andy Jassy and Mark
Zuckerberg this afternoon, butlet's be the listener right now,
Dina, who?
Who is hearing, like I get it,Like like I understand what
(18:39):
you're saying, that I need to toexert a little bit more
emotional labor, but I don'tfeel really equipped to do that.
What is, what are some of theupskilling, reskilling, if I can
put it in that language thatyou would, you would encourage a
client or a reader to thinkabout.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, well, gosh, that's like the whole book,
right it's about.
It is about the emotionalskills for understanding and
managing your own emotions inthe workplace, as well as
understanding and managing theemotions of others in the
workplace it is, it is actuallythe skills that you need to
(19:21):
perform the emotional laborthat's required in your role,
adaptively versus maladaptively,to your ability to lead
effectively in this day and age,as well as maintain your health
in this incredibly demandingtime.
(19:49):
So the whole book is reallydedicated to answering that
question you just asked me, butI think it starts with
understanding the truth aboutemotions.
They still, despite years oftalking about the importance of
(20:10):
emotions at work and decades anddecades of evidence that
confirm that fact, they're stillreally not invited in right,
and that's for a coupledifferent reasons.
There's a bunch ofmisconceptions right, that
emotions will interfere withdecision-making or good business
(20:32):
, that negative emotions willdestroy relationships, show in
certain emotions will make youweak or ineffective, and these
get in the way right of emotionsreally being one of the really
(20:54):
important things that areattended to at work.
Now, the truth about emotionsis that they are information.
That's fundamentally.
What they are is data, and it'simportant data that you can
read in yourself.
It's important data that youcan read in others.
That helps you be so much moreeffective.
But because of thesemisconceptions and because we
(21:16):
have a tendency to see certainemotions as good and certain
emotions as bad, we don't attendto them.
They don't get the respect theyrightfully deserve.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So gosh.
First of all, I think a moneyslide in this interview would be
emotions are data.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Right, and so that's.
That's a really interestingpoint.
I was given a talk yesterday tosome HR HR professional group
and the question came from theaudience.
Basically, bob, I hear you, butyou know my management talks
about feelings and they they use, they say it's the F word,
(22:03):
which I thought was funny.
But I mean there is a beliefthat, like you know, feelings
like this isn't about feelings,it's about facts.
And you're saying feelings arefacts if you know how to
interpret them.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, it's a different data source, right, we
have our minds, which have beenvery well trained up through
our education, and so we, youknow, we just sort of like we're
overheady, but there's so muchinformation that's really
important, that can be had inthe things that you are feeling,
right, just like there's reallyimportant information and data
(22:48):
that is separate, you know, fromyour prefrontal cortex in your
gut, right, like patternrecognition exists there and we
just have so much more data atour hands.
Um, and you know people whoespecially think that, like,
(23:09):
well, thoughts and feelings areentirely different things.
That's also incorrect.
What we know is that some ofthe very same networks that are,
um, you know, sort ofprocessing cognitive information
are also emotional processingcenters.
So it's wrong at the base ofbiology.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So I think this is related.
You know, I've spoken with anumber of and, to be fair, they
were all men.
They were all men and I don'tknow if this matters or doesn't
matter but who are pretty heavydisciples of Stoicism at this
point.
And Marcus Aurelius in his bookMeditations and it's very overt
(24:03):
in that, basically, feelingsare bad, like people make bad
decisions because they getwrapped up in their emotions.
And you know, we just need tokind of be this very objective,
not subjective.
How would you, if you had acoaching client, dina, and they
were kind of coming at it fromthis stoic perspective, not
expecting to be an expert instoicism, but just kind of even
saying what I just said howwould you react to that?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
what I just said.
How would you react to that?
Well, I would say emotions.
We know they influence decisionmaking.
So the only choice in my mindis do you ignore that fact,
right?
Or do you actually understandhow your emotions might be
influencing the decision thatyou think you're making entirely
with your big brain, right,like it's?
Emotions are part of humans,like they exist, whether we
(24:49):
choose to acknowledge them orignore them.
So I think it's, it's you, it's.
That's a risky move, you know?
And look, I mean, we have whatone hundred and seventy plus
known like biases, and many ofthem have an emotional component
(25:12):
.
And so I just, I just think youknow, understanding and being
able to separate out, possibly,fact from feeling is very useful
, but pretending that yourfeelings don't influence your
thinking is flawed.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I think it's highly, highly flawed, and because on a
superficial reading.
Ok, it's all kind of logical.
People are not nearly aslogical as like right.
I mean we, we make decisionsemotionally and often backfill
it with some kind of logic.
Or I heard a past one talkabout rational lies.
(25:51):
We tell ourselves rational lies, but yeah, yeah, but um, I
wasn't trying to ask, like anoverly simple question, if, if I
go, look, I look, I get it LikeI understand, I need to be more
dialed in, you know, to myselfand around me, what are, like
the first two, three steps onthat journey really look like
(26:13):
for somebody?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, honestly, I think the first step is
accepting like emotions orinformation, like I will.
I'll start to pay attention tothis data source because it's
oftentimes just ignored.
So, one, this mindset shift canbe really helpful.
Two, I always think it'shelpful to start with yourself,
(26:37):
right?
So pay attention to when youfeel a rush of emotion, like,
for instance, like I know,because I've paid attention over
time that like, when I feel mygut start to clench, that I'm
(27:00):
starting to get like prettyangry, it's a very good
opportunity for me to take adeep breath and maybe you know,
and just pause.
And so, when you feel a rush ofemotions, I'd say, you know,
just quickly pause, like wheredo you feel it in your body?
Because this will be your sortof warning system.
(27:22):
And what is that?
What is that emotion you feel?
And, rather than being satisfiedwith like a sad, mad, glad,
kind of like massive umbrellaterm, try to unpack it right.
So we, you know there'smultiple tools for doing this.
My personal favorite is afeeling.
So we, you know there'smultiple tools for doing this.
(27:42):
My personal favorite is afeeling wheel.
But you know, when you're like,I'm so mad, like well, like,
what kind of mad are you Like?
Are you frustrated?
Are you irritated?
Are you irate?
Are you feeling threatened?
Are you, you know, like what isit when we stay at the level of
mad, sad, glad, it's like apainter having like three colors
(28:06):
.
And meanwhile, when we, youknow, we've got this rich
emotional vocabulary and wespend the time to figure out
what it is, not only does thathelp us, like, regularize our
emotions, but it helps us reallyunderstand what we need to do
(28:27):
next.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And so emotions, you know they all have, like an
action potential and, andunderstanding what the emotion
is tells you really what youneed to do next, right?
So, for instance, if you'refeeling sad and you like, unpack
that further and you feel, youknow, betrayed by someone,
(28:53):
that's really different than ifyou feel sort of remorse, for
you know an action that you tookthat you now regret.
For you know an action that youtook that you now regret, Right
, and it suggests that you dodifferent things.
And so that's what I'd say.
I'd say allow them into yourlife, stop judging them as good
and bad, Notice where they showup in your body and then unpack
(29:16):
them and try to use asdescriptive terms as possible.
So that's five little things.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
There you go.
Those are five really bigthings, because even as we were
talking, I appreciate you sayingkind of start with yourself,
because there is a little bit oflead, or lead thyself.
If you can't lead yourself, howcan you lead others, somebody
else?
That seems to be an oxymoron,um.
But then the next place itseems that would take it, you
(29:42):
know, to step six is to to beable to now be more empathetic
to other people, because now Ifelt the same way.
I know how you feel, I.
It frustrates me too, andhere's why it frustrates me.
Tell me how it's making youfeel, and then can you talk
(30:04):
about the role of empathy inthis emotional labor.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd say, generally speaking,empathy is critical.
I think the interesting thingabout empathy is, I think
there's two things One, thereare different kinds of empathy,
and two, it is actuallysomething that one can develop.
(30:29):
Oh, okay, yeah, so if we startwith the first piece and we
think about the different kindsof empathy, there is more
cognitive empathy, which isreally like you step inside the
shoes of somebody, youunderstand a situation, like
through their eyes, you know,try to get a sense for their
(30:51):
perspective, which that can bereally helpful and it's
something we can all do.
Emotional empathy is when youactually feel the emotions of
somebody, right?
So if we think about emotionalcontagion or someone's sharing a
(31:13):
story with you and you justlike feel all of their pain,
that's emotional empathy andthat can be really useful too.
But unchecked especially as aleader who's handling a lot of
difficult situations, you knowthere can be some collateral
damage from too much emotionalempathy and it shows up as
(31:34):
compassion fatigue.
And then the last piece isempathic concern, or really
taking compassionate actionbased on your understanding of
somebody else's situation.
So empathy kind of breaks downinto three pieces which can be
useful in a couple differentways.
(31:55):
But one of the reasons why Ilove it is some people are like
they don't necessarily feel like, well, I totally just get it or
whatever.
Like there's different ways tosort of peel this onion and show
empathy and act empathetic.
And again, this can be anemotion skill.
(32:18):
It might not come naturally toyou, but there is.
It's something that you candevelop over time and it's the
same with all develop theemotion skills that are needed
(32:42):
to be effective and healthy intoday's workplace.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Well, I think that's a key takeaway right from the
book is that you know, and toyour point, like you know,
upskilling, reskilling.
It's kind of the point of thebook that these can be learned.
So, even if I self-identify assomeone who is, you know, maybe
a little bit more, you know,detached from my emotions, or
(33:06):
maybe I believe that I am.
If I am or not, it's adifferent topic, but it's like,
hey, I can learn this stuff.
Like I listened to Dina andshe's amazing and like, wow, I
wish I was as emotionally dialedin as she is.
But you can learn to be right.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
A hundred percent.
One of the stories that I likesharing with people when it,
when the opportunity is there,is you know, I was a leader.
Earlier in my career, I was amanagement consultant and then I
was in a number of differentleadership roles and I didn't
grow up in some hugelyenlightened family where we
(33:44):
talked about feelings right Likeit was just like work hard, be
a good girl and that's a good,you've got a good egg, good job.
Let's see more of us right Likewe.
It just there wasn't a lot ofroom for feelings.
And and then you know this isnow gosh a number of years ago,
(34:07):
and emotions were even less apart of, you know, work and
leadership, and I developed andI really prided myself on this
ability to become cool andcollected at all times.
You know, when there wereinconvenient or pesky emotions
that I thought might get in theway of my ability to achieve
(34:31):
important goals or perform well,I would just like throw them in
the locker, you know, and Inever unpacked them, and so I
totally get.
How you know, for many leaders,what I'm talking about is like
feels pretty foreign and maybeeven a little bit like daunting,
but I walked this path.
(34:53):
I mean my gosh, like look, nowI'm writing a book about.
It is very, very, very sort oflike scientifically validated
the importance of understandingand expressing um and regulating
emotions, and so, um, these can, these can be learned, and um,
everybody can change and becomemore effective so you mentioned
(35:17):
earlier, like you know, some ofthe stimuli that are creating
stress and burnout and all thatkind of thing, and one of the
things that you had mentionedwas this fairly polarized
workforce.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, these days and you know again, as you say, this
is coming out of the US, wherewe've had a pretty polarized
political environment and youknow, people are identifying
kind of on one or the other.
It feels pretty binary at somelevel.
So where that kind of takes mymind is can this emotional
(35:55):
intelligence become a culturalattribute of the company, or is
this more individualized andlocalized?
Can we actually develop acompany culture that has more
emotional leadership baked intoit?
Speaker 3 (36:11):
100, 100, right?
Um, it requires that leadersare setting the tone and, you
know, oftentimes think aboutlike a chocolate fountain.
We do.
You know, ideally we start atthe top and then it can flow
down as people see it modeledand understand like that's okay,
(36:35):
here, I could do that too.
Um, so yes, by all means.
If it is modeled, demonstrated,rewarded, and if companies also
support their people indeveloping some of these skills,
then by all means I would sayyes in a resounding way good,
(36:56):
good, good good.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Do you think you also had mentioned AI, and I don't
want to leave that one behind.
It wouldn't be a properconversation these days if we
didn't talk about AI.
Do you believe that that'sgoing to create more bandwidth,
as some of the cognitive load isput onto the computer, and is
that going to allow for moreopportunity to be a more
(37:20):
emotionally led leader?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
That is the opportunity.
I don't know that it's thereality quite yet, but by all
means it is the opportunity.
You know that we are freed fromsome of the things that used to
be more mundane, or you knowsome of the cognitive aspects of
(37:44):
the job that we use this toincrease, like the humanity, and
bring those attributes evenmore into the workplace.
But you know, what I'm seeingso far is just there's a lot of
fear of obsolescence.
Some of this is well placed andI would suggest even for
(38:05):
leaders themselves.
You know it's really importantto develop these more human
capabilities, because some ofwhat you know was part of your
role will no longer be.
And you know AI is great atdoing a lot of things, but it's
(38:26):
not quite yet there on sort ofthe emotional capabilities that
we as people can have.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I think that's sort of the artificial part of AI,
right?
I mean it's trying to emulatesomething that is infinitely
complex a human and it can getthe cognitive parts, it can
describe the emotional parts,but it can't feel the fields, as
the kids say and right, and soI.
(38:57):
I do agree with you that that isthe opportunity for true
leadership not just management,but actual leadership to come to
the fore, as some of thecognitive capabilities of AI do,
the more routine kinds ofthings open up the opportunity
(39:23):
to go do the things that I wouldlike to do but haven't really
had the time to do, or nowrecognize the need to do and can
reprioritize and push off to AII was doing that maybe aren't
the highest priority for so manypeople.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Right and that's where this emotional upskilling
right it comes back to that wemany years ago talked about more
like digital upskilling right,which is an ongoing thing.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
This is the parallel Yep.
So, just being mindful of thetime we're going to start to
wind this down, if you had togive two or three, just like
you're going to be, this is thelast thing I ever get to tell
you about emotional leadership.
What would you just absolutelyfundamentally want people to
(40:14):
walk away with?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I would want people to fundamentally walk away with
that.
Emotions are information,because I think when you accept
that and you choose to focus inon that data source, it just all
starts there in terms ofunderstanding and better
regulating your own emotions,for both your performance as
(40:37):
well as health, as well as beingable to lead people more
effectively and just reallycontribute to a much more
inspired and capable and healthyworkplace.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Well, dean, I appreciate our time today, and
you also started off thisconversation saying that this is
a data led book.
Right, you all have done yourresearch on this.
This isn't just sort of, I feel.
I think it's like you know thisis if you actually look at the
body of science that supportsyou know, the things that you
all are teaching in this book,book, and it's why I wanted to
(41:16):
have you on this podcast,because I think that it's so
important.
It's also so misunderstood,probably in some cases,
therefore misapplied.
You know, people think they'redoing the right thing but yeah,
I just can't encourage peopleenough to get the book.
It's called Emotionally Chargedhow to Lead into the New World
of work.
(41:37):
If people want to get it, dean,I'm going to guess it's on
Amazon.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
It is on Amazon.
That is the best place to getit, especially internationally.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
And if people wanted to reach out to you, whether
it's for coaching or otheropportunities, what's the best
way to do that?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah, I would welcome that.
My website is Deanadsmith.
That's D-I-N.
As in Nancy A D Smith dot com.
That's one way.
The second way is to find me onLinkedIn.
Dina Denham Smith will pull meright up up Awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
We'll make sure that's in the show notes as well
, dina, thank you so much.
I love the book.
I love how you're helpinginfluence influencers and shape
leadership, because it has acascading effect that benefits
everybody.
But I really appreciate thework you've done in the book and
what you're sharing with people.
You're making the world abetter place, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Thank you, and thank you for giving me the
opportunity to talk about itwith you today.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Really appreciate it, of course, and Bill Bannum,
thank you, hr Chat, hr Gazette.
Thank you all for theopportunity to share and we will
see you guys on the nextepisode.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by
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HRGazettecom.
Hey everybody, this is BobGoodwin and welcome to
(00:24):
anotherazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to
another episode of HR Chat.
I want to thank my good friendBill Bannum at HR Gazette for
allowing me to guest host here alittle bit.
And today's guest I am veryexcited about it's Dina
Denham-Smith, and Dina is anexecutive coach and leadership
strategist with over 25 years ofexperience helping senior
(00:45):
leaders excel.
Formerly an EVP at a privateequity firm, as well as the
principal consultant at PwC,she's worked with top brands
like Adobe, netflix, goldmanSachs, maybe companies you've
heard of but Dean is also afrequent contributor to Harvard
Business Review and Forbes andis the author of a new book
called Emotionally Charged howto Lead in the New World of.
(01:09):
Work and we're going to spend alittle bit of time talking about
that.
She holds an MBA from theUniversity of Michigan sorry
Ohio State people and iscertified by the International
Coaching Federation in theEuropean Mentoring and Coaching
Council, dina welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Thank you, it's so good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, it's so good to have you.
So I wanted to just sort ofjump into the book because it
just launched right.
When did the book drop it?
Speaker 3 (01:33):
did?
It's been out for gosh, I think, three weeks today.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, okay, and we're recording this on March 12th,
so in March, so that's great ormaybe late February.
So tell us just a little bitabout the book, what it's about
and maybe why the book.
Why, now, what sort of led youto co-authored this?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Sure.
So, as you mentioned, I'm anexecutive coach, and so I really
have a first row seat to thechallenges that leaders and
teams are experiencing.
The challenges that leaders andteams are experiencing and what
I noticed was what we all see,right, is that the work world
has fundamentally changed, butthe particular twist on it is
(02:17):
that the changes that we've allwitnessed and are still evolving
into have dramaticallyincreased the emotional demands
on leaders.
So communicating you know,using virtual communication
technologies, it's harder tobuild trust and motivate teams.
(02:38):
We have a lot of fear in theworkforce right now, due to the
acceleration of AI, leaders aretasked with championing the
implementation of newtechnologies while managing
those fears.
We have an increasingly diverseand polarized workforce, so
leaders are managing moreconflict.
(02:59):
And, last but not least, youknow, really due to the pandemic
, leaders employees'expectations for their leaders
are really higher than ever.
You know.
The net of this is theemotional demands on leaders are
at a much heightened state, andthey haven't been equipped with
the skills or resources tomanage these demands, and it's
(03:23):
one of the reasons why we havesuch a stressed and burned out
leader population.
And so the book is reallyproven strategies and techniques
and tools for helping leadersmanage all of these new demands
that they can perform both athigh levels as well as maintain
(03:43):
their own wellbeing.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, no, I think it's great and I'm genuinely
excited to have you on thisepisode, because I think what
you're talking about really kindof strikes at the humanity that
all of us experience.
You know many things that youwere just talking about, whether
you know it's the virtual worldor AI or whatever you know.
We talk about bringing yourwhole self to work.
People do right, and whilethose things are happening at
(04:11):
work, there's all this stuffthat's not happening at work,
with aging parents, kids aregoing off the rails, you know
finances, relationships, healthissues, politics I mean like
everything that's going on.
People are just feeling a tonof stress, and leaders are not
exempt from that one.
(04:31):
So there's a bit ofself-awareness of what am I
feeling, but then also theempathy of what people that I'm
charged with leading are alsofeeling.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, you know.
The only, the only point Iwould make there is you know,
bring your whole self to work isa really nice catchphrase, but
at the end of the day,organizations have a number of
display rules and you know whichis sort of the unwritten code
about which emotions you show,how much you show them when you
(05:05):
show them, and suppressingemotions that are not considered
good or acceptable and evokingthe ones that are appreciated in
your organization.
This is emotional labor, andleaders need to do a ton of that
(05:26):
to perform their roles.
And so I think what you'resaying is people are whole,
right, and so all of thosestresses of home come to work
and all of the stresses of workalso end up at home.
Right, it's a very full circlething.
But organizations have all ofthese display rules that lead
(05:48):
people to hide, ignore, suppressemotions, and this can have
some bad outcomes.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, so I remember in another conversation you and
I have had talking about beachballs.
Can you talk about beach balls?
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Yes, I can talk about beach balls.
So beach balls are an analogythat we use in the book to sort
of explain what happens when youpush your emotions under the
surface.
So I want you to imagine likeyou're in the pool or you're in
the ocean or whatever, and youhave a beach ball, and you take
(06:25):
that beach ball, which is anemotion you do not want to feel,
and you shove it under thewater.
Well, you can do that, but itdoes take effort, right, and
inevitably more situations comealong in your life or at work
that have emotional demands ortrigger negative emotions in you
(06:45):
, and so you also take thatbeach ball of emotion and try to
shove that under the surfacetoo.
Well, the effort increases andat some point, right, that beach
ball of emotion is going to popout.
It pops out typically at aninconvenient time, and
oftentimes it hits somebody inthe face, right.
(07:07):
And so this really is ananalogy for what happens when we
take emotions that, forwhatever reason, we've decided
to sort of push them away, atsome point they do come out.
You can't hold them under thatsurface line for forever, and
(07:28):
this is just like one of themany reasons why understanding
our emotions and processing themand inviting them into the
workplace is so important.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Well, and then I picked up on I hadn't heard you
say it quite this way before,but you know the the emotions
that we're allowed to have ondisplay, and so if it's an
emotion that's not acceptable,right Then whether I might want
to feel, in fact, maybe like Ilike feeling that emotion, but
it's not one that's acceptableto have on display at work or
(08:04):
for someone at my level in thecompany, or however it's
perceived or contextualized.
So I need to push that down,and so I'm wondering if it feels
related to.
It seems like it might be aboutkind of authenticity.
Vulnerability would be termsthat are quite in vogue these
(08:24):
days.
They might be easier to talkabout than to actually act on.
But where does authenticity,where does vulnerability start
to fit into this conversationabout emotions that could be,
maybe should be, on display?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Right, right, and what we're talking about really
is emotional labor, right, andsometimes it is about
suppressing certain emotions andother times it's about evoking
ones.
There was an article justrecently and it's all about how,
you know, employees feel likethey have to laugh at a leader's
jokes and even if you don'tthink it's very funny, that
(08:59):
that's an example.
Well, leaders in their roles,they need to do a lot of the
emotional labor to perform theirrole.
So let me give you a couple ofquick examples and then we'll
talk about vulnerability andauthenticity.
So one example for a leaderwould be like they wake up on
(09:19):
the wrong side of the bed orthey're exhausted, but they need
to go into a team meeting andsort of be peppy, right To
motivate the team to, you know,go the final mile on a big
project, or they're feelingtotally burnt out, they've had a
horrible day, but an employeecomes in to talk to them about a
(09:42):
challenge and they need toexpress a lot of empathy when
meanwhile you know they coulduse some selves.
These are just very basicexamples, but how this connects
to authenticity, right, is thereis this expectation, especially
for leaders, that they be human, right, that they be authentic.
(10:05):
But then if they express toomuch authenticity, right, they
run this risk of losingcredibility.
And so this is really thisauthenticity paradox, right,
it's like a Goldilocks situation.
It needs to be just the rightamount.
This, again, is emotional labor, right, because you are
(10:27):
purposefully managing youremotions.
This requires, like, cognitiveeffort to show up in the right
way.
So that is one of theintersections there with
emotional labor and leadershipand authenticity.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So if we thought about this as like being on a
sliding scale kind of a thingwould you be encouraging your
coaching clients to kind ofslide more towards authenticity
if they seem to be more reservedor have grown up in an
environment where that wasn'tthe kind of thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
Generally speaking, yes, in that you know leaders,
actions are more powerful thantheir words.
So saying you can bring yourwhole self to this team, when
someone is really shut down,like, people are reading your
behaviors, behaviors there, youknow they, they listen in part
(11:29):
to your words and so, um, thatwon't fly.
And we know that teams wherethere is more um sort of
authentic expression of emotionsand personalities, these teams
are more cohesive, they performat higher levels.
So there are compelling reasons, but sometimes it's simply not
(11:50):
safe, even when you are theleader, to show all of what
makes you authentic right Likeof what makes you authentic
right Like.
I don't think anybody reallymeans it when they say bring
your whole self to work, allright.
So no, no.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I agree, and I mean that's why we call it emotional
intelligence Like you need tohave discretion, right, you need
to be able to exercise judgment.
I think what you know, yourwork, your work does is it
allows people to understandbetter how this can be an
enabler, right, and unleash thepower in some teams where we do
(12:32):
acknowledge that there's thiswhole human side.
We're not just work-producingunits, right, but I may not need
to show up to that same, youknow project, you know last push
and talk about how my marriageis in a shambles and I'm a mess
today or whatever, right, thatmay not be the right venue for
that level of authenticity,right?
(12:53):
So you know, we talked a littlebit about like now, it's like a
really important time for abook like this to come out Now.
When did you start working onit?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
We started working on it.
I have a co-author that's whyI'm using the word we and her
name is Dr Alicia Grandy, andshe heads up the org psych
department at Penn State and westarted working on it a good two
and a half years ago, maybeeven more.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Now, that's what I thought.
The reason I ask is, if we windthe clock back, you know, we
might have things like the greatresignation, quiet quitting.
Might have things like thegreat resignation, quiet
quitting.
You know the if I can say itquite this way the balance of
power was more on the labor sideof the equation, more with
workers who had a lot morechoices.
As you and I have thisconversation today, it's a
(13:52):
pretty tight labor market,particularly for, you know,
white collar, professional kindsof people.
And you know we see people likeJamie Dimon, you know, cursing
at the event, like just get backto work, get back to the office
.
I'm tired of playing games withpeople.
You know Mark Zuckerberg beingon, they were just going to
(14:13):
whack.
You know all of our lowperformers and people are like
whoa, dude, I'm not a lowperformer.
What are you talking about?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
The Scarlet Letter, but no, thank you.
It feels like, you know, thedynamic has shifted back towards
management and also I mean thisis a separate but related topic
with all the inclusion,diversity, equity conversation,
those are being dialed back, ifnot shut down.
So it feels like that theemotional sensitivity right this
(14:51):
minute is actually dialing backsome.
Do you see that, or do you seeit differently?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Oh, yes, yes, I see it across sectors, absolutely.
I know we're both here in theUnited States and so we're
seeing a lot of lack ofsensitivity to people's humanity
and lives in government jobswhich used to be considered safe
(15:23):
.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah.
So I guess my question issometimes we follow these big
name CEOs, celebrity CEOs likewell gosh.
I guess if these people are outthere, you're kind of operating
like this.
Maybe I should too.
I don't think it's a great wayto operate.
I think they're doing theircompany brands a lot of harm.
(15:52):
I think people have memories ofhow they were treated.
How would you talk to theseCEOs who are just taking a
really hard line my way or thehighway and don't seem to be
exhibiting a lot of emotionalintelligence or putting forward
a lot of emotional labor?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, well, gosh, I would have a few, probably a few
choice words, but the argumentI would try to create for them
it goes along the lines of whatyou said.
People have memories.
What comes around goes around.
The power will shift again andit goes back to this, like
wonderful Maya Angelou quote,right, like people don't
(16:29):
remember what you said, but theyremember how you felt.
And so if you, you know, andpeople, at the end of the day,
need to put food on the table sothey may stick around, you know
, while you're up there, kind oflike swinging your power around
, but you are not going to getthe very best out of that person
, right?
They will be more disengaged,right, and that's going to hit
(16:53):
your performance, it's going tohit your productivity, it's
going to hit the bottom line,and so I think that's really key
to understand.
People do not like feeling likereplaceable parts in a giant cog
, and I'd say, furthermore, youknow this return to the office,
(17:15):
like gosh, how much moreresearch do we need that working
remotely actually can work?
Sure, there are benefits tohaving people together in a
common space.
I see that and I know thoseexist.
But there's also really strongbenefits to having people have a
(17:37):
little more flexibility and theability to work remotely,
especially for some people, andso when I see leaders taking
this hard line stance, you knowwhat I think about is how
autonomy is such a basic humanneed, and you know these leaders
at the top right they're allabout autonomy and control and
(18:00):
they understand how importantthat is.
They need to feed their own,but they're afraid of giving it
to other people Like.
I really think this is whatthis is ultimately at the base
of it about is control issues.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh, this is awesome.
So, so let's, cause I'mprobably we're probably not
gonna be able to fix Jamiediamond and Andy Jassy and Mark
Zuckerberg this afternoon, butlet's be the listener right now,
Dina, who?
Who is hearing, like I get it,Like like I understand what
(18:39):
you're saying, that I need to toexert a little bit more
emotional labor, but I don'tfeel really equipped to do that.
What is, what are some of theupskilling, reskilling, if I can
put it in that language thatyou would, you would encourage a
client or a reader to thinkabout.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Yeah, well, gosh, that's like the whole book,
right it's about.
It is about the emotionalskills for understanding and
managing your own emotions inthe workplace, as well as
understanding and managing theemotions of others in the
workplace it is, it is actuallythe skills that you need to
(19:21):
perform the emotional laborthat's required in your role,
adaptively versus maladaptively,to your ability to lead
effectively in this day and age,as well as maintain your health
in this incredibly demandingtime.
(19:49):
So the whole book is reallydedicated to answering that
question you just asked me, butI think it starts with
understanding the truth aboutemotions.
They still, despite years oftalking about the importance of
(20:10):
emotions at work and decades anddecades of evidence that
confirm that fact, they're stillreally not invited in right,
and that's for a coupledifferent reasons.
There's a bunch ofmisconceptions right, that
emotions will interfere withdecision-making or good business
(20:32):
, that negative emotions willdestroy relationships, show in
certain emotions will make youweak or ineffective, and these
get in the way right of emotionsreally being one of the really
(20:54):
important things that areattended to at work.
Now, the truth about emotionsis that they are information.
That's fundamentally.
What they are is data, and it'simportant data that you can
read in yourself.
It's important data that youcan read in others.
That helps you be so much moreeffective.
But because of thesemisconceptions and because we
(21:16):
have a tendency to see certainemotions as good and certain
emotions as bad, we don't attendto them.
They don't get the respect theyrightfully deserve.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So gosh.
First of all, I think a moneyslide in this interview would be
emotions are data.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Right, and so that's.
That's a really interestingpoint.
I was given a talk yesterday tosome HR HR professional group
and the question came from theaudience.
Basically, bob, I hear you, butyou know my management talks
about feelings and they they use, they say it's the F word,
(22:03):
which I thought was funny.
But I mean there is a beliefthat, like you know, feelings
like this isn't about feelings,it's about facts.
And you're saying feelings arefacts if you know how to
interpret them.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Yeah, it's a different data source, right, we
have our minds, which have beenvery well trained up through
our education, and so we, youknow, we just sort of like we're
overheady, but there's so muchinformation that's really
important, that can be had inthe things that you are feeling,
right, just like there's reallyimportant information and data
(22:48):
that is separate, you know, fromyour prefrontal cortex in your
gut, right, like patternrecognition exists there and we
just have so much more data atour hands.
Um, and you know people whoespecially think that, like,
(23:09):
well, thoughts and feelings areentirely different things.
That's also incorrect.
What we know is that some ofthe very same networks that are,
um, you know, sort ofprocessing cognitive information
are also emotional processingcenters.
So it's wrong at the base ofbiology.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
So I think this is related.
You know, I've spoken with anumber of and, to be fair, they
were all men.
They were all men and I don'tknow if this matters or doesn't
matter but who are pretty heavydisciples of Stoicism at this
point.
And Marcus Aurelius in his bookMeditations and it's very overt
(24:03):
in that, basically, feelingsare bad, like people make bad
decisions because they getwrapped up in their emotions.
And you know, we just need tokind of be this very objective,
not subjective.
How would you, if you had acoaching client, dina, and they
were kind of coming at it fromthis stoic perspective, not
expecting to be an expert instoicism, but just kind of even
saying what I just said howwould you react to that?
Speaker 3 (24:24):
what I just said.
How would you react to that?
Well, I would say emotions.
We know they influence decisionmaking.
So the only choice in my mindis do you ignore that fact,
right?
Or do you actually understandhow your emotions might be
influencing the decision thatyou think you're making entirely
with your big brain, right,like it's?
Emotions are part of humans,like they exist, whether we
(24:49):
choose to acknowledge them orignore them.
So I think it's, it's you, it's.
That's a risky move, you know?
And look, I mean, we have whatone hundred and seventy plus
known like biases, and many ofthem have an emotional component
(25:12):
.
And so I just, I just think youknow, understanding and being
able to separate out, possibly,fact from feeling is very useful
, but pretending that yourfeelings don't influence your
thinking is flawed.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
I think it's highly, highly flawed, and because on a
superficial reading.
Ok, it's all kind of logical.
People are not nearly aslogical as like right.
I mean we, we make decisionsemotionally and often backfill
it with some kind of logic.
Or I heard a past one talkabout rational lies.
(25:51):
We tell ourselves rational lies, but yeah, yeah, but um, I
wasn't trying to ask, like anoverly simple question, if, if I
go, look, I look, I get it LikeI understand, I need to be more
dialed in, you know, to myselfand around me, what are, like
the first two, three steps onthat journey really look like
(26:13):
for somebody?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, honestly, I think the first step is
accepting like emotions orinformation, like I will.
I'll start to pay attention tothis data source because it's
oftentimes just ignored.
So, one, this mindset shift canbe really helpful.
Two, I always think it'shelpful to start with yourself,
(26:37):
right?
So pay attention to when youfeel a rush of emotion, like,
for instance, like I know,because I've paid attention over
time that like, when I feel mygut start to clench, that I'm
(27:00):
starting to get like prettyangry, it's a very good
opportunity for me to take adeep breath and maybe you know,
and just pause.
And so, when you feel a rush ofemotions, I'd say, you know,
just quickly pause, like wheredo you feel it in your body?
Because this will be your sortof warning system.
(27:22):
And what is that?
What is that emotion you feel?
And, rather than being satisfiedwith like a sad, mad, glad,
kind of like massive umbrellaterm, try to unpack it right.
So we, you know there'smultiple tools for doing this.
My personal favorite is afeeling.
So we, you know there'smultiple tools for doing this.
(27:42):
My personal favorite is afeeling wheel.
But you know, when you're like,I'm so mad, like well, like,
what kind of mad are you Like?
Are you frustrated?
Are you irritated?
Are you irate?
Are you feeling threatened?
Are you, you know, like what isit when we stay at the level of
mad, sad, glad, it's like apainter having like three colors
(28:06):
.
And meanwhile, when we, youknow, we've got this rich
emotional vocabulary and wespend the time to figure out
what it is, not only does thathelp us, like, regularize our
emotions, but it helps us reallyunderstand what we need to do
(28:27):
next.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
And so emotions, you know they all have, like an
action potential and, andunderstanding what the emotion
is tells you really what youneed to do next, right?
So, for instance, if you'refeeling sad and you like, unpack
that further and you feel, youknow, betrayed by someone,
(28:53):
that's really different than ifyou feel sort of remorse, for
you know an action that you tookthat you now regret.
For you know an action that youtook that you now regret, Right
, and it suggests that you dodifferent things.
And so that's what I'd say.
I'd say allow them into yourlife, stop judging them as good
and bad, Notice where they showup in your body and then unpack
(29:16):
them and try to use asdescriptive terms as possible.
So that's five little things.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
There you go.
Those are five really bigthings, because even as we were
talking, I appreciate you sayingkind of start with yourself,
because there is a little bit oflead, or lead thyself.
If you can't lead yourself, howcan you lead others, somebody
else?
That seems to be an oxymoron,um.
But then the next place itseems that would take it, you
(29:42):
know, to step six is to to beable to now be more empathetic
to other people, because now Ifelt the same way.
I know how you feel, I.
It frustrates me too, andhere's why it frustrates me.
Tell me how it's making youfeel, and then can you talk
(30:04):
about the role of empathy inthis emotional labor.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd say, generally speaking,empathy is critical.
I think the interesting thingabout empathy is, I think
there's two things One, thereare different kinds of empathy,
and two, it is actuallysomething that one can develop.
(30:29):
Oh, okay, yeah, so if we startwith the first piece and we
think about the different kindsof empathy, there is more
cognitive empathy, which isreally like you step inside the
shoes of somebody, youunderstand a situation, like
through their eyes, you know,try to get a sense for their
(30:51):
perspective, which that can bereally helpful and it's
something we can all do.
Emotional empathy is when youactually feel the emotions of
somebody, right?
So if we think about emotionalcontagion or someone's sharing a
(31:13):
story with you and you justlike feel all of their pain,
that's emotional empathy andthat can be really useful too.
But unchecked especially as aleader who's handling a lot of
difficult situations, you knowthere can be some collateral
damage from too much emotionalempathy and it shows up as
(31:34):
compassion fatigue.
And then the last piece isempathic concern, or really
taking compassionate actionbased on your understanding of
somebody else's situation.
So empathy kind of breaks downinto three pieces which can be
useful in a couple differentways.
(31:55):
But one of the reasons why Ilove it is some people are like
they don't necessarily feel like, well, I totally just get it or
whatever.
Like there's different ways tosort of peel this onion and show
empathy and act empathetic.
And again, this can be anemotion skill.
(32:18):
It might not come naturally toyou, but there is.
It's something that you candevelop over time and it's the
same with all develop theemotion skills that are needed
(32:42):
to be effective and healthy intoday's workplace.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Well, I think that's a key takeaway right from the
book is that you know, and toyour point, like you know,
upskilling, reskilling.
It's kind of the point of thebook that these can be learned.
So, even if I self-identify assomeone who is, you know, maybe
a little bit more, you know,detached from my emotions, or
(33:06):
maybe I believe that I am.
If I am or not, it's adifferent topic, but it's like,
hey, I can learn this stuff.
Like I listened to Dina andshe's amazing and like, wow, I
wish I was as emotionally dialedin as she is.
But you can learn to be right.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
A hundred percent.
One of the stories that I likesharing with people when it,
when the opportunity is there,is you know, I was a leader.
Earlier in my career, I was amanagement consultant and then I
was in a number of differentleadership roles and I didn't
grow up in some hugelyenlightened family where we
(33:44):
talked about feelings right Likeit was just like work hard, be
a good girl and that's a good,you've got a good egg, good job.
Let's see more of us right Likewe.
It just there wasn't a lot ofroom for feelings.
And and then you know this isnow gosh a number of years ago,
(34:07):
and emotions were even less apart of, you know, work and
leadership, and I developed andI really prided myself on this
ability to become cool andcollected at all times.
You know, when there wereinconvenient or pesky emotions
that I thought might get in theway of my ability to achieve
(34:31):
important goals or perform well,I would just like throw them in
the locker, you know, and Inever unpacked them, and so I
totally get.
How you know, for many leaders,what I'm talking about is like
feels pretty foreign and maybeeven a little bit like daunting,
but I walked this path.
(34:53):
I mean my gosh, like look, nowI'm writing a book about.
It is very, very, very sort oflike scientifically validated
the importance of understandingand expressing um and regulating
emotions, and so, um, these can, these can be learned, and um,
everybody can change and becomemore effective so you mentioned
(35:17):
earlier, like you know, some ofthe stimuli that are creating
stress and burnout and all thatkind of thing, and one of the
things that you had mentionedwas this fairly polarized
workforce.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Yeah, these days and you know again, as you say, this
is coming out of the US, wherewe've had a pretty polarized
political environment and youknow, people are identifying
kind of on one or the other.
It feels pretty binary at somelevel.
So where that kind of takes mymind is can this emotional
(35:55):
intelligence become a culturalattribute of the company, or is
this more individualized andlocalized?
Can we actually develop acompany culture that has more
emotional leadership baked intoit?
Speaker 3 (36:11):
100, 100, right?
Um, it requires that leadersare setting the tone and, you
know, oftentimes think aboutlike a chocolate fountain.
We do.
You know, ideally we start atthe top and then it can flow
down as people see it modeledand understand like that's okay,
(36:35):
here, I could do that too.
Um, so yes, by all means.
If it is modeled, demonstrated,rewarded, and if companies also
support their people indeveloping some of these skills,
then by all means I would sayyes in a resounding way good,
(36:56):
good, good good.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Do you think you also had mentioned AI, and I don't
want to leave that one behind.
It wouldn't be a properconversation these days if we
didn't talk about AI.
Do you believe that that'sgoing to create more bandwidth,
as some of the cognitive load isput onto the computer, and is
that going to allow for moreopportunity to be a more
(37:20):
emotionally led leader?
Speaker 3 (37:22):
That is the opportunity.
I don't know that it's thereality quite yet, but by all
means it is the opportunity.
You know that we are freed fromsome of the things that used to
be more mundane, or you knowsome of the cognitive aspects of
(37:44):
the job that we use this toincrease, like the humanity, and
bring those attributes evenmore into the workplace.
But you know, what I'm seeingso far is just there's a lot of
fear of obsolescence.
Some of this is well placed andI would suggest even for
(38:05):
leaders themselves.
You know it's really importantto develop these more human
capabilities, because some ofwhat you know was part of your
role will no longer be.
And you know AI is great atdoing a lot of things, but it's
(38:26):
not quite yet there on sort ofthe emotional capabilities that
we as people can have.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
I think that's sort of the artificial part of AI,
right?
I mean it's trying to emulatesomething that is infinitely
complex a human and it can getthe cognitive parts, it can
describe the emotional parts,but it can't feel the fields, as
the kids say and right, and soI.
(38:57):
I do agree with you that that isthe opportunity for true
leadership not just management,but actual leadership to come to
the fore, as some of thecognitive capabilities of AI do,
the more routine kinds ofthings open up the opportunity
(39:23):
to go do the things that I wouldlike to do but haven't really
had the time to do, or nowrecognize the need to do and can
reprioritize and push off to AII was doing that maybe aren't
the highest priority for so manypeople.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Right and that's where this emotional upskilling
right it comes back to that wemany years ago talked about more
like digital upskilling right,which is an ongoing thing.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
This is the parallel Yep.
So, just being mindful of thetime we're going to start to
wind this down, if you had togive two or three, just like
you're going to be, this is thelast thing I ever get to tell
you about emotional leadership.
What would you just absolutelyfundamentally want people to
(40:14):
walk away with?
Speaker 3 (40:15):
I would want people to fundamentally walk away with
that.
Emotions are information,because I think when you accept
that and you choose to focus inon that data source, it just all
starts there in terms ofunderstanding and better
regulating your own emotions,for both your performance as
(40:37):
well as health, as well as beingable to lead people more
effectively and just reallycontribute to a much more
inspired and capable and healthyworkplace.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Well, dean, I appreciate our time today, and
you also started off thisconversation saying that this is
a data led book.
Right, you all have done yourresearch on this.
This isn't just sort of, I feel.
I think it's like you know thisis if you actually look at the
body of science that supportsyou know, the things that you
all are teaching in this book,book, and it's why I wanted to
(41:16):
have you on this podcast,because I think that it's so
important.
It's also so misunderstood,probably in some cases,
therefore misapplied.
You know, people think they'redoing the right thing but yeah,
I just can't encourage peopleenough to get the book.
It's called Emotionally Chargedhow to Lead into the New World
of work.
(41:37):
If people want to get it, dean,I'm going to guess it's on
Amazon.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
It is on Amazon.
That is the best place to getit, especially internationally.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
And if people wanted to reach out to you, whether
it's for coaching or otheropportunities, what's the best
way to do that?
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Yeah, I would welcome that.
My website is Deanadsmith.
That's D-I-N.
As in Nancy A D Smith dot com.
That's one way.
The second way is to find me onLinkedIn.
Dina Denham Smith will pull meright up up Awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
We'll make sure that's in the show notes as well
, dina, thank you so much.
I love the book.
I love how you're helpinginfluence influencers and shape
leadership, because it has acascading effect that benefits
everybody.
But I really appreciate thework you've done in the book and
what you're sharing with people.
You're making the world abetter place, so thank you.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
Thank you, and thank you for giving me the
opportunity to talk about itwith you today.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Really appreciate it, of course, and Bill Bannum,
thank you, hr Chat, hr Gazette.
Thank you all for theopportunity to share and we will
see you guys on the nextepisode.
Speaker 4 (42:50):
This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by
Deal.
Are you looking for anall-in-one solution to manage
your global workforce?
With Deal, you can easilyonboard global employees,
streamline payroll processes andensure local compliance All in
one flexible, scalable platform.
Join thousands of companies whotrust Deal with their global HR
needs.
Visit dealcom today that'sD-E-E-L dot com to see how you
(43:14):
can start managing your globalteam with unmatched speed,
flexibility and compliance.
Thanks, and we hope you enjoythis HR Chat episode.
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