February 10, 2025 • 35 mins
In this episode of the HRchat show, we talk about what it means to become crisis ready in the workplace, a must for HR professionals and leaders alike. Join us as we sit down with Dr. Bill Howatt, an expert in workplace mental health and capacity building, alongside HR media figure Todd Humber. Together, they unveil the Crisis Ready program, a groundbreaking initiative designed to equip individuals with practical tools to navigate interpersonal crises effectively. Hear firsthand how this program aims to establish a workplace culture where mental health is prioritized with the same urgency as physical health.
In the discussion, we look at the complexities of recognizing and addressing workplace mental health challenges. Dr. Howatt emphasizes the importance of creating environments that extend beyond the bare minimum of emergency resources. We tackle the pressing question of whether organizations are genuinely maintaining momentum in supporting mental health post-pandemic. Through this conversation, you'll gain insights into fostering a culture of kindness, accountability, and purpose, ensuring leaders understand and prioritize the emotional well-being of their teams.
Finally, we delve into the legal and ethical obligations of employers in cultivating trauma-informed workplaces. Learn about the evolving landscape of workplace safety regulations, including the necessity for respectful debates and authentic communication. This episode is a treasure trove of practical insights, from building competence-based models to ensuring that training translates into meaningful outcomes. Don't miss out on learning how to access further resources and connect with Crisis Ready Workplaces for continued development in this crucial area.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and in
this conversation we're going tofocus on the concept of what it
means to be crisis ready in theworkplace, and the benefits for
leaders, for employees and forthe organization as a whole.
And back on the show after fartoo long is none other than dr
(00:52):
bill howard thanks for invitingme back.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's been a bit has been.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It's been a while, uh , okay, so the focus of this
conversation today is aroundthis idea of being crisis ready.
Being ready to handle what'sbeing thrown at you is my, is my
wee summation there.
We'll get into the detailshortly and the the motivation
is you have just recentlylaunched a new program called
(01:20):
called crisis ready.
That's with yourself, and theother face of the program is
todd humber um who certainly ourcanadian listeners I'm sure
will be pretty familiar with uh,he, he's, uh he's a bit of a
name when it comes to hr mediain canada and more widely in
north america, I think.
So let's start there.
Just take a couple of minutesif you don't mind, and sort of
(01:42):
uh, give our listeners anoverview of you, your, your
background, why this isimportant to you and also why
you partnered with Todd.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So I would go into a whole biobut I'll just kind of.
I've been playing around in theworkplace mental health space
for quite a few years, years andone of the areas I've been
really focused on is capacitybuilding in organizations and
around helping capacity building.
So one of my motivations is Ido a lot of work with HR
(02:13):
professionals and when I look,for example, the HR
certifications and the training,what people are getting and
getting benefits, training andyou know benefits, training and
different things on how to doperformance management, etc.
The thing that I kept gettingasked about helping people is
dealing with workplace crisis,challenges in the workplace and
(02:37):
I you know, and with that ispsychological health and safety
and with that is safe andrespectful workplaces and with
that would be, you knowworkplace mental health and how
to deal with that is safe andrespectful workplaces and with
that would be, you knowworkplace mental health and how
to deal with employees at riskand all those kind of things.
And so I talked to Todd Humberand Todd and I know each other
back for many, many years when Iwas chief of research it used
to be called Morneau-Chapelle,now it's Pellis focusing
(03:00):
workplace areas.
We did some work when he wasall the way back at Thompson
Reuters.
That's where I met him and wedid some work on safe and
respectful workplace and weactually Dr Mbusker and I
published the documents.
So I've always had arelationship with Todd around
(03:21):
dealing with, you know,challenges in the workplace and
crisis and respect and all that.
So when Todd and I were recentlytalking about HR news Canada
and HR law Canada what he'sdoing we just started the.
We just had a chat one day.
It was simply as that.
We just had a chat one day andsaid you know what, what do we
think is missing?
(03:41):
And we conceived this ideacalled Crisis Ready Workplace
and I had been piloting.
I piloted this program that I'ddeveloped at a couple of large
organizations and then thefederal government, and what we
realized is that there's anopportunity.
So we decided to partner and wecreated wwwcrisisreadyca and we
(04:04):
created this program to helpfolks be ready to deal with
interpersonal crisis in theworkplace.
Not to become experts, bill,it's just to get folks ready.
And I feel and without beinglong winded, which I'm good at
sometimes is that you take allyour experience of this too
(04:27):
right.
So I've taken a lot of mentalhealth experience and clinical
practice and applied practice.
So it's not a bunch of theory,it's really applied tools.
We want people to have tools.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Okay, and big shout out to Todd, we'll be sure to
include you in the socials aswell.
So there we go, okay.
So obviously, if people want toget into the the nitty-gritty,
uh, the finer details, they justhave to sign up.
But let's start with a bit ofan overview, sure, don't mind?
Uh, can you, can you, can yourun through?
Because it's broken.
(05:17):
The program's broken into anumber of modules, of course.
Maybe you can give us anoverview of each of those
modules and and, um, how, how,leaders can maybe integrate some
of those within their decisionmaking processes yeah, well,
it's a good test for me.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
can I remember all eight modules?
But I can tell you, I can tellyou from a high level what the
what, the what it is.
So we have, we start the courseof the course off around what I
believe is your foundationalinformation.
It's helpful to understand.
You know the factors that willinfluence and can lead to crises
(05:56):
in the workplace or increasedstress, and one of those that is
going to be a factor on howeffective you are in it as you.
So we begin with around theindividual readiness to actually
deal with crisis.
In other words, if someone islike, if a patient came and saw
(06:16):
me and they had an issue and itwas really, really stressful,
and I reacted and stood up andstarted to walk around my chair
and go, I can't believe.
I mean, and I couldn't manageit, or I started breaking down
and I and I couldn't cry, youknow, which is a natural
(06:38):
response, and but you probablywant your professional to be
able to manage it, because weget trained to deal with this
and not that there's anythingwrong with that, but you
probably want me to be calm,like a heart surgeon.
You don't want them to benervous.
So there's a certain amount ofreadiness for you to be your own
(07:00):
self-care how you manage yourown emotions, own self-care, how
you manage your own emotions.
And then it's important tounderstand what psychological
safety really means in regardsto the environmental factors
that could be contributing tostress load, that could be
antecedents, root causes thatcould be triggering crises, and
a lot of how people are dealingwith stress can create the
(07:20):
reactivity.
Then we'll cover off topicsaround what a trauma-informed
workplace means and understandthe relevance of what trauma is
and how that can actually showup in the workplace and it can
actually.
Some people, because oftraumatic responses, can
actually come off as they're notcaring about other human beings
(07:44):
, but that might be them, theirstrategies of how they're coping
.
And then we'll move through andwe'll talk about things about
how to deal with workplacemental health issues, including
impairment in the workplace.
We'll talk about anger, how todeal with an employee's anger.
We'll talk about how to dealwith someone at risk for suicide
.
And one of the most importantmodules in my opinion in the
(08:07):
program and I guess I have apretty good one since I wrote it
is crisis management frameworka basic, simple model, for you
can't prepare for every crisis,but to give a person a framework
of I'm in crisis and somethingI've never dealt with before a
six-step model to navigate it.
(08:30):
And the goal of this wholeprogram, bill, is not to provide
people with a framework thatthey're going to be.
They get a certificate.
We have accredited this throughCBD actually in the UK, cbd
International, and we have CEUsand all that to give people a
real credential.
But we really want people torealize we're not trying to make
(08:53):
them crisis experts.
We're trying to give them toolsso that they feel they can move
towards challenging situationsand have a sense of what they
can do.
And one of the things I oftenuse is like a defibrillator on
the wall.
They're great that employershave them, but if employees
don't know how to use them, orleaders they're really useless.
(09:14):
So we're just trying to makesure people have tools to
understand what they can do tohelp.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And as part of this process, in terms of creating
some content around the newprogram, in terms of trying to
help educate folks, is a brandnew podcast called the Workplace
Mental Health Podcast with DrBill Howitt, and I've had the
pleasure of being theinterviewer for the new show.
(09:45):
We have actually, as we recordthis, just wrapped up recording
the first season, which isspecifically focused on this, on
Crisis Ready, and then there'smore to come with that show.
So watch this space, listeners.
There'll be links to the newshow, I'm sure, within the show
notes here, so check that oneout too on your podcast player
(10:05):
of choice.
Okay, so now I'd like to ask whyis this new program timely?
What I mean by that is, youknow, folks can feel stresses
and pressures at any time intheir lives, lives, and there
are a whole bunch of factors,and we've gone into many of
(10:27):
those in the new podcast season,but what I'm talking about here
actually are some of the uhnewer, uh bigger contextual
factors.
We've got wars going going onaround the world, we've got
economic stresses, we've gotcertain politicians who are in
place, who are shaking things upfor other countries.
These are all things that theypress upon us and now in our
(10:49):
personal lives and we take thatinto the workplace right and and
some of those seem to be a lotbigger, maybe even existential
at times, than just a few yearsago.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
You paint a picture of that I think you actually
nailed a great word.
You know what an existential isis facing the potential of your
own demise, and when you startthinking about it we haven't
fully recovered from andpandemic.
There's a, there's a lag periodand you know, then things catch
(11:28):
up.
The challenge is is that formyself, as someone who works in
workplace, mental health andstill, you know, carries
licenses to see clients and needand all that kind of stuff is
it's it's helpful to keep incontext what's going on.
You see, we've been under a lotof stress for several years.
(11:51):
The pandemic changed thelandscape.
That was a big crisis, not justfor one area but for the planet
.
In my 60 years, that's the bigone.
I mean, I wasn't in Korea, Iwasn't in Vietnam, but I was in
Ottawa by myself during apandemic, just moved here.
(12:12):
So I dealt with my issues tooand if I didn't have blinked, my
bulldog, my trusted buddy belowme, I probably would be.
You know, I would have made itsure, but you didn't get my
point.
You come out of the pandemic andwar starts and then other civil
unrest starts and other warstarts, and geopolitical, so
(12:33):
there is no shortage of, youknow, the interest rates,
inflation, pressure.
So there's been all kinds ofmacroeconomic stressors.
So, if you think about it, whyI think it's timely is what
crisis really is is whenpeople's resources are
overwhelmed and a situation'soutside the realm of normal or
(12:54):
coping capacity.
So if you think about it, youknow crises could be.
You're stressed out becauseyou're late and someone cuts you
off and someone has a reactionFor that person being cut off.
It's a crisis.
It's a mini crisis, but somepeople move into road rage
(13:15):
because they can't regulatetheir calm.
You drop something and you'llsee.
And what's the point being isif your battery is really low
and life is really hard and youradversity load is really heavy,
your tolerance decreases.
I'm finding people's toleranceis shorter now and I'm finding
(13:40):
people are a little bit moreacting out now and there's more
emotion now.
Violence in some areas hasincreased.
Car thefts has increased Foodinsecurity, so all this stuff's
happening outside workplaces.
But then it comes in and there'sa general stress that a lot of
(14:00):
people are dealing with, and mysense is one of the really
important things for us to keepin mind.
A lot of people are dealingwith and my sense is one of the
really important things for usto keep in mind, to kind of land
this question for you is thatthere is no clarity when all
(14:22):
this is going to end, and so theunknown is another problem, and
so that to me, bill, what'shappening is people are under a
lot of pressure now, and thatpressure is going to create more
emotions, could create moremental health issues, more
(14:42):
issues.
Online gambling you know,pathological online gambling has
gone from three and a half inCanada up to over six now.
People are looking fordifferent ways to cope with
stress, and so my belief systemis the timings now, employers
that have HR professionals, ohscommittees, workplace mental
(15:05):
health leaders we're wise togive people tools to get ready
to deal with these situations,and if we don't give them
practical tools, they don't needtheory, they need practical
tools like cpr, bang, bang bang,simple things that can help
them move towards, to help.
That's what we're trying to do,but it's a your.
(15:26):
Your questions are big.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
There's a lot of stuff, man so the pandemic was
very difficult for um everyone.
One silver lining that at leastwe're talking about in 2022,
2023, a lot into 2024 as wellwas uh, one silver lining from
the pandemic was that peoplewere more willing to be open and
(15:49):
vulnerable with people and andand check in with them.
Use that term check in, yeah,how are you doing?
How are you doing how?
How are you feeling?
Yeah, um, being honest aboutyour, about where you're at in
terms of your mental health, doyou think?
Do you think it was still there?
Are we closing off again?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think I think we've had a slip.
I I think it's uh, I think we,I think that I think what's
happened is is we haven'tfigured out fully that mental
health is no different thanphysical health, and what I mean
by that is exercise, diet, rest, relaxation or what your
(16:26):
nervous system needs forphysiological health.
If you don't pay attention towhat you put in your gut, you're
not paying attention to howthat'll impact your, because
your guts, were yourneurotransmitters are made.
That will impact how you feel.
If you don't have any purposeand you don't feel good, like
it's really good.
(16:46):
Mental health is learning howto feel well.
When you're feeling well, liketaking care of the car, your
exercise, diet, rest, relaxationthat's great.
But you got to know whereyou're driving to.
And if you're going to work justfor a paycheck versus purpose,
or you're just trying to surviveversus thrive, then there's a
lot of folks are just trying tosurvive, so they don't have as
(17:12):
much room.
Their error is kind of yourcups over full.
There's a lot more people theircups almost overfilled with
stress, worry, challenges andthat's creating more reactivity
and if we're not payingattention to the consequences of
all of this stuff, it just kindof creates a ripple effect.
(17:35):
It can impact families at home,it can impact the workplace, it
can impact an employee'squality of life and experience
employee's quality of life andexperience and so it's
interesting.
You know, when I listen tomyself talk about this, it's a
big spider web, right?
But at the end of the day, bill, I'm not convinced yet In 2025,
(18:05):
the average CEO some do but theaverage CEO or leader
understands that.
The emotion all we're reallytalking about is how people feel
is that we're measuring it andmaking it a priority and we're
holding people accountable.
Just be simple.
As simple as this is.
Just to be kind, to be civil,to have disagreements and
(18:32):
arguments, that's fine.
We all have a bad day.
I'm very capable of being shorttoo, probably like other people
, but it's being mindful of whatwe want to aspire to be versus
what we are and have guidanceand support to get to where
we're going.
And I still think we're toobusy doing and we're not paying
(18:53):
enough attention to taking careof the like, taking care of
people at enough.
Where they're, they're thrivingenough.
I'm hearing lots of people havegreat activity, but they're
confusing activity with outcomes.
Right, I'll end with thisAllopathic medicine.
(19:16):
We've been talking about 100years.
Obesity, type 2 diabetes,cancer those things still
continue to rise.
So all of a sudden, now westart this conversation around
workplace mental health.
During the pandemic Some of itwas a little bit of a fad, but I
think people confuse.
Well, we do that.
We have EAP oh, we havebenefits.
(19:38):
That's supports.
That's emergency.
That's not prevention.
That's not taking care of theemployee experience.
That's not paying attention toevery interaction.
That's not holding theenvironment accountable for what
the employee experience.
That's not paying attention toevery interaction.
That's not holding theenvironment accountable for what
the experience is.
And that's really what willmatter.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Just very briefly, because I want to then switch to
focus more on the role of theleader.
But you know, on this show wedo try to offer practical
takeaways for our listeners.
And you are the guy to ask ifI'm, if I, if I haven't got the,
the training, I haven't beenthrough a course such as crisis
(20:19):
ready, are there still one ortwo things I can notice about
myself?
If, if I allow myself to dothat, that tells me that I'm in
risk of becoming mentally ill,for example?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
yeah, and I would use the words versus metal ill to
be overwhelmed or not.
Because so I'll give an example.
If, if you chronically arewaking up every day at 4 am in
the morning, your mother, youcan't sleep and your brain is
running all the time.
If you're not, if you're wakingup every day at 4 am in the
morning, you can't sleep andyour brain is running all the
time.
If you're not, if you're losingyour appetite, if you're not
(20:55):
enjoying things like, let's say,I like playing basketball, but
I'm not playing basketball, I'msitting home, I'm isolating
myself from other people, I'mspending more time alone.
I'm starting my internaldialogue, which we call our
parrot, starting to say yourlife's no good, I'm no good.
It's never going to change that, because the key to good mental
(21:15):
health is learning how tocontrol the parrot in your head.
Your brain says stuff doesn'tmean it's true.
You have anywhere between 30 to60,000 thoughts a day,
depending on who you read or howactive your brain is.
So all the things automaticallygenerating your unconscious
brain is not necessarily factual.
Your frontal lobe and you haveto object it.
(21:35):
So if your thinking is, andthen you're spending a lot of
time emotional, or you can'tsleep or you're agitated,
irritable or reacting.
Those are all reasonable forsomeone that's stressed.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat you have a mental illness.
If I told you how many patientsI've seen over my 40 years that
(21:58):
their wife left them after 20years, took the dog, took the
money, took this, and I see thema month later and they're all
stressed to the gourd andthey're not working and they're
not feeling good and they're allstressed to the gourd and
they're.
You know they're not workingand they're not feeling good and
they might be driven.
That doesn't mean they have amental illness.
That just means they're,they're overwhelmed.
(22:18):
And so I think what happens iswe sometimes don't understand
depression, anxiety are verygood emotions.
We serve purpose.
It doesn't mean we're broken.
They're really reasonableresponses to how we're dealing
with because they're just anemotion, right?
So to answer your question, Ithink it's self-awareness is
important.
You know, like when I wasteaching in graduate school, you
(22:42):
teach abnormal psych.
All of a sudden people think,start diagnosing themselves.
I'm very careful.
It's degree of functioningversus symptom load.
It's really the world life.
I don't know why we have it inour society.
Maybe you might have somewisdom.
I'm from Canada and you liveover in the UK, you might have a
(23:04):
different perspective, butsomehow in my culture where I
live, I think sometimes we havea bias that things are supposed
to be good all the time, Versusif I look in an Eastern culture
where they accept unpleasantemotion.
Misery is a part of the humancondition and I think sometimes
we haven't taught people thatlife's hard and you're going to
(23:26):
spend some time in unpleasantemotions and that doesn't mean
your life sucks.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
But I'm not sure many people got that lesson built,
so we're running away fromemotions a lot okay, uh, now I
want to talk about leaders, as Isuggested I would do earlier on
um, and specifically the, thekpis, or, in fact, the key
performance behaviors.
But what are some of those keyperformance behaviors of trusted
(23:53):
leaders during a crisis, andhow can hr and employee
well-being professionals help todevelop those behaviors?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
yeah.
So it's interesting.
One of the things I've beendoing, bill, is, I mean,
actually I created a programcalled trusted leader and one of
the things we teach in thetrusted leader is very specific
behaviors called foundationalbehaviors, daily behaviors and
on-demand behaviors, and one ofthe one of the one of the really
(24:24):
really good on sorryfoundational behaviors for
building trust that can help indealing with challenging
situations or conflict iscreating an environment where
it's okay for employees to havea point of view or even to
(24:44):
debate with you.
So one of the key performancebehaviors I teach in that is,
for example, if you were mydirect report and we're just
getting to know each other, I'dsay okay, bill, so there's going
to be times where you and I aregoing to have debates or even
arguments.
So how do you want to argue?
And Bill might go well, what doyou mean?
(25:05):
I said well, we're going tohave arguments, we're going to
have passionate debates.
How do you want to do it?
Because if we really both care,we're going to have to learn
how to actually have differencesof opinion.
Now, what's important is, whenwe have difference of opinion,
we've got all theseneurochemicals, all this emotion
wanting.
Some of us want to win, but thereality is a debate about
winning or is a debate aboutlearning.
Is a debate about winning or isa debate about learning?
(25:28):
Where do you want to start from?
Because a possibility is Icould be wrong.
See, a good leader has thehumility to know.
Just because they have athought doesn't mean it's always
facts or they're always right.
That's where it takes somehumility why you think about.
You know great people, that youknow great writers.
You know you know Jim Collinsgood to great.
You know humility number oneattribute, for you know great
(25:49):
leaders.
So if you start thinking aboutit, that's a skill.
And then who gets to start theargument?
Well, are you just the leaderor is it the employee comes to
start and then the employee askshow do you want to argue?
And you'd start to learn how topractice to have interpersonal
dances.
That could be from givingfeedback.
Arguing and feedback aredifferent than correcting
(26:11):
behavior, like if bill is mydirect report and he really,
really cares about me and I havesome implicit bias and I
actually said something that maybe colloquial or or a colonial
term or something I was outsidemy level of awareness.
That oppresses someone else.
Bill really cares about me andwe have a trusted relationship.
(26:33):
Bill will come up to me and say, bill, I'm not, are you aware
of what you just did?
And go.
What was that?
And I go.
You just said this and this andfor that person that could
probably mean this, I recommendnot.
Well, he just corrected mybehavior and defending it.
That's not really the point.
If I have a trustedrelationship, so that can help
(26:55):
us navigate things quickly, sowe can move through it.
Now, is it always smooth andeasy?
No, but it's getting thatfoundation in place will help
you when, during the hard times,I find too many people just
kind of have a fake dance andthey don't have an authentic
(27:16):
dance.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Let's talk about the legals.
What are the legal obligationsof employers when it comes to
creating a safe and respectfulworkplace?
You know, forget everythingelse for a moment.
From a legal perspective, what?
Why do companies need to takethis more seriously?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
yeah, it depends where you're at.
Most states, provinces,countries that are in our world,
like the uk or canada, etc.
There are going to be somerequirements that employers have
a duty to protect workers andso far in canada I'll speak to
that because where I'm at theprovince of Ontario every
employer under the occupationalhealth and safety would have a
(27:56):
certain obligation aroundcreating a physical safe place
as well as protecting employeesfrom bullying, harassment, as
well, under human rights,protecting them them from
discrimination.
So employers now are becomingclearer on their obligation to
protect employees.
But what's also reallyimportant is some countries are
(28:20):
going to another level.
If you look where Australia isvery progressive, they're
starting to look at theenvironment from psychosocial
factors that could becontributing to employee stress
and putting obligation thatemployers measure what those
factors are and if those factorsare becoming hazards.
So one way to think about itthink about work demand If it's
(28:43):
okay, it could be a charge, andif it's not and it's
overwhelming, it could become adrain.
And if that's starting tocreate harm, that's moving to
people to like burnout or fearor other things that are
creating harm to themselves orothers, and if a employer
doesn't do something, therecould be some responsibilities
starting to see some you knowmore legal action happening
(29:06):
around that and moreconversation.
So what's happening?
I would say, some, you knowmore legal action happening
around that and moreconversation.
So what's happening?
I would say, you know, I'mgoing to call you know a kind of
a western north american.
There's obligations thatemployers now the the teeth that
the does the employer followthrough.
That's starting.
That's a learning curve too.
(29:27):
So you, so you can have policiesand you get an obligation, but
you also have to have the teethwhere you're following through
with consequences if you don't.
So the government can create apolicy to saying, hey, you have
a, you have to.
Employees have a right todisconnect from work, but if no
one's enforcing it, then thatcan actually become a harm to
(29:49):
employees.
So employers are yes, they'regetting responsibilities.
There's a regulatory piecewhere you can be held
accountable, but I also thinkthere's also employers are
starting to.
There's a three-legged stoolhappening.
It's regulatory accountability,there's a financial business
case and it's also maximizinghuman potential.
(30:13):
You want people to perform andyou want them to learn and grow.
It's like a lawn you got towater it, you got to take care
of it some, or it's not going toflourish.
So I think there's moremovement, what employers are
taking on as obligations andthen taking on as opportunity in
(30:36):
this conversation, and I findthat it's not all just one now
too oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Obligations and opportunities, I like that.
Uh, okay.
So Imagine you've got anorganization and leadership are
bought in to the fact that theyneed to have the training to be
crisis ready.
Great, they get it.
But what are some of thechallenges that those
organizations might face whentrying to implement trauma
(31:04):
informed practices and how canthey overcome them?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
trauma-informed practices and how can they
overcome them?
Well, I think it's likeanything it's you, it's there's
awareness, accountability andaction, regardless of what
you're doing.
So, you know, getting a concept, becoming aware of it.
You, first of all, you need toknow why, then you need to
understand whether it'strauma-informed or anything.
What can you do and how do youdo it?
(31:30):
And I think what happens isit's not only giving people the
information, the knowledge andthe skills which we do in Crisis
Ready Workplace, but it's also,I think, a big barrier is
giving people time to practice.
If you think about it,occupational health and safety
many organizations will have asafety moment or safety tip, or
(31:52):
they'll do audits, they'll doreviews, they'll do check-ins,
because they know that you knowit's important to make sure the
lineman that's going up the poleor woman or other, that they
have their helmet and gear andeverything safe, that they have
their helmet and gear andeverything safe.
Well, they do that.
Well, what do we do too oftenin psych safety or workplace
(32:15):
mental health?
Well, we did an assessment orwe went to a program where our
leaders were trained.
What's often a barrier tosuccess is building in
measurement and time forpractice and excellence in my
mind requires repetition,practice measurement, time for
practice, and excellence in mymind requires repetition,
practice measurement and habitdevelopment.
And unfortunately this is not aB12 shot, whatever you're trying
(32:40):
to give someone.
Oh, I go to a beautiful, youknow one day workshop on
trauma-informed workplace.
That's good, but if you don'tcorrect for the forgetting curve
by next Thursday, a week later,85% of it's gone Because
there's so much information andthere's so much to learn.
I'm so how do I put this?
(33:04):
I'm so pro-training anddevelopment, I think it's so
important, but I'm so concernedfor some of my big clients that
they don't build in their budgetthe training piece and the
practice piece, so they losemillions of dollars.
(33:25):
If you look at a bunch oforganizations just doing almost
a compliance check the boxversus what's our
competency-based model, and Ithink that's what really more
employers want.
They want the competency, notjust the activity.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, fortunately, my understanding is that the
Crisis Ready content is recorded, so if you are forgetting 85%
after a week, you can go backand have another look once
you've signed up.
There we go, dr Bill.
Before we wrap up for today,how can our listeners connect
with you and, of course, how canthey learn more about the new
Crisis Ready program?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, thanks very much, bill.
Wwwcrisisreadyca the course isCrisis Ready Workplaces.
You can look at HR News Canada,where you'll find Todd's good
work, or HR Law Canada, as wellas wwwhowardhrcom.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
And in addition to that, I will include a link to
the new podcast with Bill andBill the Two Bills, and so you
can listen to that too and learneven more Dr Bill the two Bills
.
And then so you can, you can,you can listen to that too and
learn even more Dr Bill.
I think this is like the thirdor fourth time you've been on
this show now.
It's always a pleasure, sothank you very much for being my
guest and listeners.
Until next time, Happy working.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Thanks for listening to the HR chat show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
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Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and in
this conversation we're going tofocus on the concept of what it
means to be crisis ready in theworkplace, and the benefits for
leaders, for employees and forthe organization as a whole.
And back on the show after fartoo long is none other than dr
(00:52):
bill howard thanks for invitingme back.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
It's been a bit has been.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It's been a while, uh , okay, so the focus of this
conversation today is aroundthis idea of being crisis ready.
Being ready to handle what'sbeing thrown at you is my, is my
wee summation there.
We'll get into the detailshortly and the the motivation
is you have just recentlylaunched a new program called
(01:20):
called crisis ready.
That's with yourself, and theother face of the program is
todd humber um who certainly ourcanadian listeners I'm sure
will be pretty familiar with uh,he, he's, uh he's a bit of a
name when it comes to hr mediain canada and more widely in
north america, I think.
So let's start there.
Just take a couple of minutesif you don't mind, and sort of
(01:42):
uh, give our listeners anoverview of you, your, your
background, why this isimportant to you and also why
you partnered with Todd.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So I would go into a whole biobut I'll just kind of.
I've been playing around in theworkplace mental health space
for quite a few years, years andone of the areas I've been
really focused on is capacitybuilding in organizations and
around helping capacity building.
So one of my motivations is Ido a lot of work with HR
(02:13):
professionals and when I look,for example, the HR
certifications and the training,what people are getting and
getting benefits, training andyou know benefits, training and
different things on how to doperformance management, etc.
The thing that I kept gettingasked about helping people is
dealing with workplace crisis,challenges in the workplace and
(02:37):
I you know, and with that ispsychological health and safety
and with that is safe andrespectful workplaces and with
that would be, you knowworkplace mental health and how
to deal with that is safe andrespectful workplaces and with
that would be, you knowworkplace mental health and how
to deal with employees at riskand all those kind of things.
And so I talked to Todd Humberand Todd and I know each other
back for many, many years when Iwas chief of research it used
to be called Morneau-Chapelle,now it's Pellis focusing
(03:00):
workplace areas.
We did some work when he wasall the way back at Thompson
Reuters.
That's where I met him and wedid some work on safe and
respectful workplace and weactually Dr Mbusker and I
published the documents.
So I've always had arelationship with Todd around
(03:21):
dealing with, you know,challenges in the workplace and
crisis and respect and all that.
So when Todd and I were recentlytalking about HR news Canada
and HR law Canada what he'sdoing we just started the.
We just had a chat one day.
It was simply as that.
We just had a chat one day andsaid you know what, what do we
think is missing?
(03:41):
And we conceived this ideacalled Crisis Ready Workplace
and I had been piloting.
I piloted this program that I'ddeveloped at a couple of large
organizations and then thefederal government, and what we
realized is that there's anopportunity.
So we decided to partner and wecreated wwwcrisisreadyca and we
(04:04):
created this program to helpfolks be ready to deal with
interpersonal crisis in theworkplace.
Not to become experts, bill,it's just to get folks ready.
And I feel and without beinglong winded, which I'm good at
sometimes is that you take allyour experience of this too
(04:27):
right.
So I've taken a lot of mentalhealth experience and clinical
practice and applied practice.
So it's not a bunch of theory,it's really applied tools.
We want people to have tools.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Okay, and big shout out to Todd, we'll be sure to
include you in the socials aswell.
So there we go, okay.
So obviously, if people want toget into the the nitty-gritty,
uh, the finer details, they justhave to sign up.
But let's start with a bit ofan overview, sure, don't mind?
Uh, can you, can you, can yourun through?
Because it's broken.
(05:17):
The program's broken into anumber of modules, of course.
Maybe you can give us anoverview of each of those
modules and and, um, how, how,leaders can maybe integrate some
of those within their decisionmaking processes yeah, well,
it's a good test for me.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
can I remember all eight modules?
But I can tell you, I can tellyou from a high level what the
what, the what it is.
So we have, we start the courseof the course off around what I
believe is your foundationalinformation.
It's helpful to understand.
You know the factors that willinfluence and can lead to crises
(05:56):
in the workplace or increasedstress, and one of those that is
going to be a factor on howeffective you are in it as you.
So we begin with around theindividual readiness to actually
deal with crisis.
In other words, if someone islike, if a patient came and saw
(06:16):
me and they had an issue and itwas really, really stressful,
and I reacted and stood up andstarted to walk around my chair
and go, I can't believe.
I mean, and I couldn't manageit, or I started breaking down
and I and I couldn't cry, youknow, which is a natural
(06:38):
response, and but you probablywant your professional to be
able to manage it, because weget trained to deal with this
and not that there's anythingwrong with that, but you
probably want me to be calm,like a heart surgeon.
You don't want them to benervous.
So there's a certain amount ofreadiness for you to be your own
(07:00):
self-care how you manage yourown emotions, own self-care, how
you manage your own emotions.
And then it's important tounderstand what psychological
safety really means in regardsto the environmental factors
that could be contributing tostress load, that could be
antecedents, root causes thatcould be triggering crises, and
a lot of how people are dealingwith stress can create the
(07:20):
reactivity.
Then we'll cover off topicsaround what a trauma-informed
workplace means and understandthe relevance of what trauma is
and how that can actually showup in the workplace and it can
actually.
Some people, because oftraumatic responses, can
actually come off as they're notcaring about other human beings
(07:44):
, but that might be them, theirstrategies of how they're coping
.
And then we'll move through andwe'll talk about things about
how to deal with workplacemental health issues, including
impairment in the workplace.
We'll talk about anger, how todeal with an employee's anger.
We'll talk about how to dealwith someone at risk for suicide
.
And one of the most importantmodules in my opinion in the
(08:07):
program and I guess I have apretty good one since I wrote it
is crisis management frameworka basic, simple model, for you
can't prepare for every crisis,but to give a person a framework
of I'm in crisis and somethingI've never dealt with before a
six-step model to navigate it.
(08:30):
And the goal of this wholeprogram, bill, is not to provide
people with a framework thatthey're going to be.
They get a certificate.
We have accredited this throughCBD actually in the UK, cbd
International, and we have CEUsand all that to give people a
real credential.
But we really want people torealize we're not trying to make
(08:53):
them crisis experts.
We're trying to give them toolsso that they feel they can move
towards challenging situationsand have a sense of what they
can do.
And one of the things I oftenuse is like a defibrillator on
the wall.
They're great that employershave them, but if employees
don't know how to use them, orleaders they're really useless.
(09:14):
So we're just trying to makesure people have tools to
understand what they can do tohelp.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And as part of this process, in terms of creating
some content around the newprogram, in terms of trying to
help educate folks, is a brandnew podcast called the Workplace
Mental Health Podcast with DrBill Howitt, and I've had the
pleasure of being theinterviewer for the new show.
(09:45):
We have actually, as we recordthis, just wrapped up recording
the first season, which isspecifically focused on this, on
Crisis Ready, and then there'smore to come with that show.
So watch this space, listeners.
There'll be links to the newshow, I'm sure, within the show
notes here, so check that oneout too on your podcast player
(10:05):
of choice.
Okay, so now I'd like to ask whyis this new program timely?
What I mean by that is, youknow, folks can feel stresses
and pressures at any time intheir lives, lives, and there
are a whole bunch of factors,and we've gone into many of
(10:27):
those in the new podcast season,but what I'm talking about here
actually are some of the uhnewer, uh bigger contextual
factors.
We've got wars going going onaround the world, we've got
economic stresses, we've gotcertain politicians who are in
place, who are shaking things upfor other countries.
These are all things that theypress upon us and now in our
(10:49):
personal lives and we take thatinto the workplace right and and
some of those seem to be a lotbigger, maybe even existential
at times, than just a few yearsago.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
You paint a picture of that I think you actually
nailed a great word.
You know what an existential isis facing the potential of your
own demise, and when you startthinking about it we haven't
fully recovered from andpandemic.
There's a, there's a lag periodand you know, then things catch
(11:28):
up.
The challenge is is that formyself, as someone who works in
workplace, mental health andstill, you know, carries
licenses to see clients and needand all that kind of stuff is
it's it's helpful to keep incontext what's going on.
You see, we've been under a lotof stress for several years.
(11:51):
The pandemic changed thelandscape.
That was a big crisis, not justfor one area but for the planet
.
In my 60 years, that's the bigone.
I mean, I wasn't in Korea, Iwasn't in Vietnam, but I was in
Ottawa by myself during apandemic, just moved here.
(12:12):
So I dealt with my issues tooand if I didn't have blinked, my
bulldog, my trusted buddy belowme, I probably would be.
You know, I would have made itsure, but you didn't get my
point.
You come out of the pandemic andwar starts and then other civil
unrest starts and other warstarts, and geopolitical, so
(12:33):
there is no shortage of, youknow, the interest rates,
inflation, pressure.
So there's been all kinds ofmacroeconomic stressors.
So, if you think about it, whyI think it's timely is what
crisis really is is whenpeople's resources are
overwhelmed and a situation'soutside the realm of normal or
(12:54):
coping capacity.
So if you think about it, youknow crises could be.
You're stressed out becauseyou're late and someone cuts you
off and someone has a reactionFor that person being cut off.
It's a crisis.
It's a mini crisis, but somepeople move into road rage
(13:15):
because they can't regulatetheir calm.
You drop something and you'llsee.
And what's the point being isif your battery is really low
and life is really hard and youradversity load is really heavy,
your tolerance decreases.
I'm finding people's toleranceis shorter now and I'm finding
(13:40):
people are a little bit moreacting out now and there's more
emotion now.
Violence in some areas hasincreased.
Car thefts has increased Foodinsecurity, so all this stuff's
happening outside workplaces.
But then it comes in and there'sa general stress that a lot of
(14:00):
people are dealing with, and mysense is one of the really
important things for us to keepin mind.
A lot of people are dealingwith and my sense is one of the
really important things for usto keep in mind, to kind of land
this question for you is thatthere is no clarity when all
(14:22):
this is going to end, and so theunknown is another problem, and
so that to me, bill, what'shappening is people are under a
lot of pressure now, and thatpressure is going to create more
emotions, could create moremental health issues, more
(14:42):
issues.
Online gambling you know,pathological online gambling has
gone from three and a half inCanada up to over six now.
People are looking fordifferent ways to cope with
stress, and so my belief systemis the timings now, employers
that have HR professionals, ohscommittees, workplace mental
(15:05):
health leaders we're wise togive people tools to get ready
to deal with these situations,and if we don't give them
practical tools, they don't needtheory, they need practical
tools like cpr, bang, bang bang,simple things that can help
them move towards, to help.
That's what we're trying to do,but it's a your.
(15:26):
Your questions are big.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
There's a lot of stuff, man so the pandemic was
very difficult for um everyone.
One silver lining that at leastwe're talking about in 2022,
2023, a lot into 2024 as wellwas uh, one silver lining from
the pandemic was that peoplewere more willing to be open and
(15:49):
vulnerable with people and andand check in with them.
Use that term check in, yeah,how are you doing?
How are you doing how?
How are you feeling?
Yeah, um, being honest aboutyour, about where you're at in
terms of your mental health, doyou think?
Do you think it was still there?
Are we closing off again?
Speaker 3 (16:06):
I think I think we've had a slip.
I I think it's uh, I think we,I think that I think what's
happened is is we haven'tfigured out fully that mental
health is no different thanphysical health, and what I mean
by that is exercise, diet, rest, relaxation or what your
(16:26):
nervous system needs forphysiological health.
If you don't pay attention towhat you put in your gut, you're
not paying attention to howthat'll impact your, because
your guts, were yourneurotransmitters are made.
That will impact how you feel.
If you don't have any purposeand you don't feel good, like
it's really good.
(16:46):
Mental health is learning howto feel well.
When you're feeling well, liketaking care of the car, your
exercise, diet, rest, relaxationthat's great.
But you got to know whereyou're driving to.
And if you're going to work justfor a paycheck versus purpose,
or you're just trying to surviveversus thrive, then there's a
lot of folks are just trying tosurvive, so they don't have as
(17:12):
much room.
Their error is kind of yourcups over full.
There's a lot more people theircups almost overfilled with
stress, worry, challenges andthat's creating more reactivity
and if we're not payingattention to the consequences of
all of this stuff, it just kindof creates a ripple effect.
(17:35):
It can impact families at home,it can impact the workplace, it
can impact an employee'squality of life and experience
employee's quality of life andexperience and so it's
interesting.
You know, when I listen tomyself talk about this, it's a
big spider web, right?
But at the end of the day, bill, I'm not convinced yet In 2025,
(18:05):
the average CEO some do but theaverage CEO or leader
understands that.
The emotion all we're reallytalking about is how people feel
is that we're measuring it andmaking it a priority and we're
holding people accountable.
Just be simple.
As simple as this is.
Just to be kind, to be civil,to have disagreements and
(18:32):
arguments, that's fine.
We all have a bad day.
I'm very capable of being shorttoo, probably like other people
, but it's being mindful of whatwe want to aspire to be versus
what we are and have guidanceand support to get to where
we're going.
And I still think we're toobusy doing and we're not paying
(18:53):
enough attention to taking careof the like, taking care of
people at enough.
Where they're, they're thrivingenough.
I'm hearing lots of people havegreat activity, but they're
confusing activity with outcomes.
Right, I'll end with thisAllopathic medicine.
(19:16):
We've been talking about 100years.
Obesity, type 2 diabetes,cancer those things still
continue to rise.
So all of a sudden, now westart this conversation around
workplace mental health.
During the pandemic Some of itwas a little bit of a fad, but I
think people confuse.
Well, we do that.
We have EAP oh, we havebenefits.
(19:38):
That's supports.
That's emergency.
That's not prevention.
That's not taking care of theemployee experience.
That's not paying attention toevery interaction.
That's not holding theenvironment accountable for what
the employee experience.
That's not paying attention toevery interaction.
That's not holding theenvironment accountable for what
the experience is.
And that's really what willmatter.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Just very briefly, because I want to then switch to
focus more on the role of theleader.
But you know, on this show wedo try to offer practical
takeaways for our listeners.
And you are the guy to ask ifI'm, if I, if I haven't got the,
the training, I haven't beenthrough a course such as crisis
(20:19):
ready, are there still one ortwo things I can notice about
myself?
If, if I allow myself to dothat, that tells me that I'm in
risk of becoming mentally ill,for example?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
yeah, and I would use the words versus metal ill to
be overwhelmed or not.
Because so I'll give an example.
If, if you chronically arewaking up every day at 4 am in
the morning, your mother, youcan't sleep and your brain is
running all the time.
If you're not, if you're wakingup every day at 4 am in the
morning, you can't sleep andyour brain is running all the
time.
If you're not, if you're losingyour appetite, if you're not
(20:55):
enjoying things like, let's say,I like playing basketball, but
I'm not playing basketball, I'msitting home, I'm isolating
myself from other people, I'mspending more time alone.
I'm starting my internaldialogue, which we call our
parrot, starting to say yourlife's no good, I'm no good.
It's never going to change that, because the key to good mental
(21:15):
health is learning how tocontrol the parrot in your head.
Your brain says stuff doesn'tmean it's true.
You have anywhere between 30 to60,000 thoughts a day,
depending on who you read or howactive your brain is.
So all the things automaticallygenerating your unconscious
brain is not necessarily factual.
Your frontal lobe and you haveto object it.
(21:35):
So if your thinking is, andthen you're spending a lot of
time emotional, or you can'tsleep or you're agitated,
irritable or reacting.
Those are all reasonable forsomeone that's stressed.
That doesn't necessarily meanthat you have a mental illness.
If I told you how many patientsI've seen over my 40 years that
(21:58):
their wife left them after 20years, took the dog, took the
money, took this, and I see thema month later and they're all
stressed to the gourd andthey're not working and they're
not feeling good and they're allstressed to the gourd and
they're.
You know they're not workingand they're not feeling good and
they might be driven.
That doesn't mean they have amental illness.
That just means they're,they're overwhelmed.
(22:18):
And so I think what happens iswe sometimes don't understand
depression, anxiety are verygood emotions.
We serve purpose.
It doesn't mean we're broken.
They're really reasonableresponses to how we're dealing
with because they're just anemotion, right?
So to answer your question, Ithink it's self-awareness is
important.
You know, like when I wasteaching in graduate school, you
(22:42):
teach abnormal psych.
All of a sudden people think,start diagnosing themselves.
I'm very careful.
It's degree of functioningversus symptom load.
It's really the world life.
I don't know why we have it inour society.
Maybe you might have somewisdom.
I'm from Canada and you liveover in the UK, you might have a
(23:04):
different perspective, butsomehow in my culture where I
live, I think sometimes we havea bias that things are supposed
to be good all the time, Versusif I look in an Eastern culture
where they accept unpleasantemotion.
Misery is a part of the humancondition and I think sometimes
we haven't taught people thatlife's hard and you're going to
(23:26):
spend some time in unpleasantemotions and that doesn't mean
your life sucks.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
But I'm not sure many people got that lesson built,
so we're running away fromemotions a lot okay, uh, now I
want to talk about leaders, as Isuggested I would do earlier on
um, and specifically the, thekpis, or, in fact, the key
performance behaviors.
But what are some of those keyperformance behaviors of trusted
(23:53):
leaders during a crisis, andhow can hr and employee
well-being professionals help todevelop those behaviors?
Speaker 3 (24:03):
yeah.
So it's interesting.
One of the things I've beendoing, bill, is, I mean,
actually I created a programcalled trusted leader and one of
the things we teach in thetrusted leader is very specific
behaviors called foundationalbehaviors, daily behaviors and
on-demand behaviors, and one ofthe one of the one of the really
(24:24):
really good on sorryfoundational behaviors for
building trust that can help indealing with challenging
situations or conflict iscreating an environment where
it's okay for employees to havea point of view or even to
(24:44):
debate with you.
So one of the key performancebehaviors I teach in that is,
for example, if you were mydirect report and we're just
getting to know each other, I'dsay okay, bill, so there's going
to be times where you and I aregoing to have debates or even
arguments.
So how do you want to argue?
And Bill might go well, what doyou mean?
(25:05):
I said well, we're going tohave arguments, we're going to
have passionate debates.
How do you want to do it?
Because if we really both care,we're going to have to learn
how to actually have differencesof opinion.
Now, what's important is, whenwe have difference of opinion,
we've got all theseneurochemicals, all this emotion
wanting.
Some of us want to win, but thereality is a debate about
winning or is a debate aboutlearning.
Is a debate about winning or isa debate about learning?
(25:28):
Where do you want to start from?
Because a possibility is Icould be wrong.
See, a good leader has thehumility to know.
Just because they have athought doesn't mean it's always
facts or they're always right.
That's where it takes somehumility why you think about.
You know great people, that youknow great writers.
You know you know Jim Collinsgood to great.
You know humility number oneattribute, for you know great
(25:49):
leaders.
So if you start thinking aboutit, that's a skill.
And then who gets to start theargument?
Well, are you just the leaderor is it the employee comes to
start and then the employee askshow do you want to argue?
And you'd start to learn how topractice to have interpersonal
dances.
That could be from givingfeedback.
Arguing and feedback aredifferent than correcting
(26:11):
behavior, like if bill is mydirect report and he really,
really cares about me and I havesome implicit bias and I
actually said something that maybe colloquial or or a colonial
term or something I was outsidemy level of awareness.
That oppresses someone else.
Bill really cares about me andwe have a trusted relationship.
(26:33):
Bill will come up to me and say, bill, I'm not, are you aware
of what you just did?
And go.
What was that?
And I go.
You just said this and this andfor that person that could
probably mean this, I recommendnot.
Well, he just corrected mybehavior and defending it.
That's not really the point.
If I have a trustedrelationship, so that can help
(26:55):
us navigate things quickly, sowe can move through it.
Now, is it always smooth andeasy?
No, but it's getting thatfoundation in place will help
you when, during the hard times,I find too many people just
kind of have a fake dance andthey don't have an authentic
(27:16):
dance.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Let's talk about the legals.
What are the legal obligationsof employers when it comes to
creating a safe and respectfulworkplace?
You know, forget everythingelse for a moment.
From a legal perspective, what?
Why do companies need to takethis more seriously?
Speaker 3 (27:35):
yeah, it depends where you're at.
Most states, provinces,countries that are in our world,
like the uk or canada, etc.
There are going to be somerequirements that employers have
a duty to protect workers andso far in canada I'll speak to
that because where I'm at theprovince of Ontario every
employer under the occupationalhealth and safety would have a
(27:56):
certain obligation aroundcreating a physical safe place
as well as protecting employeesfrom bullying, harassment, as
well, under human rights,protecting them them from
discrimination.
So employers now are becomingclearer on their obligation to
protect employees.
But what's also reallyimportant is some countries are
(28:20):
going to another level.
If you look where Australia isvery progressive, they're
starting to look at theenvironment from psychosocial
factors that could becontributing to employee stress
and putting obligation thatemployers measure what those
factors are and if those factorsare becoming hazards.
So one way to think about itthink about work demand If it's
(28:43):
okay, it could be a charge, andif it's not and it's
overwhelming, it could become adrain.
And if that's starting tocreate harm, that's moving to
people to like burnout or fearor other things that are
creating harm to themselves orothers, and if a employer
doesn't do something, therecould be some responsibilities
starting to see some you knowmore legal action happening
(29:06):
around that and moreconversation.
So what's happening?
I would say, some, you knowmore legal action happening
around that and moreconversation.
So what's happening?
I would say, you know, I'mgoing to call you know a kind of
a western north american.
There's obligations thatemployers now the the teeth that
the does the employer followthrough.
That's starting.
That's a learning curve too.
(29:27):
So you, so you can have policiesand you get an obligation, but
you also have to have the teethwhere you're following through
with consequences if you don't.
So the government can create apolicy to saying, hey, you have
a, you have to.
Employees have a right todisconnect from work, but if no
one's enforcing it, then thatcan actually become a harm to
(29:49):
employees.
So employers are yes, they'regetting responsibilities.
There's a regulatory piecewhere you can be held
accountable, but I also thinkthere's also employers are
starting to.
There's a three-legged stoolhappening.
It's regulatory accountability,there's a financial business
case and it's also maximizinghuman potential.
(30:13):
You want people to perform andyou want them to learn and grow.
It's like a lawn you got towater it, you got to take care
of it some, or it's not going toflourish.
So I think there's moremovement, what employers are
taking on as obligations andthen taking on as opportunity in
(30:36):
this conversation, and I findthat it's not all just one now
too oh, I like that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Obligations and opportunities, I like that.
Uh, okay.
So Imagine you've got anorganization and leadership are
bought in to the fact that theyneed to have the training to be
crisis ready.
Great, they get it.
But what are some of thechallenges that those
organizations might face whentrying to implement trauma
(31:04):
informed practices and how canthey overcome them?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
trauma-informed practices and how can they
overcome them?
Well, I think it's likeanything it's you, it's there's
awareness, accountability andaction, regardless of what
you're doing.
So, you know, getting a concept, becoming aware of it.
You, first of all, you need toknow why, then you need to
understand whether it'strauma-informed or anything.
What can you do and how do youdo it?
(31:30):
And I think what happens isit's not only giving people the
information, the knowledge andthe skills which we do in Crisis
Ready Workplace, but it's also,I think, a big barrier is
giving people time to practice.
If you think about it,occupational health and safety
many organizations will have asafety moment or safety tip, or
(31:52):
they'll do audits, they'll doreviews, they'll do check-ins,
because they know that you knowit's important to make sure the
lineman that's going up the poleor woman or other, that they
have their helmet and gear andeverything safe, that they have
their helmet and gear andeverything safe.
Well, they do that.
Well, what do we do too oftenin psych safety or workplace
(32:15):
mental health?
Well, we did an assessment orwe went to a program where our
leaders were trained.
What's often a barrier tosuccess is building in
measurement and time forpractice and excellence in my
mind requires repetition,practice measurement, time for
practice, and excellence in mymind requires repetition,
practice measurement and habitdevelopment.
And unfortunately this is not aB12 shot, whatever you're trying
(32:40):
to give someone.
Oh, I go to a beautiful, youknow one day workshop on
trauma-informed workplace.
That's good, but if you don'tcorrect for the forgetting curve
by next Thursday, a week later,85% of it's gone Because
there's so much information andthere's so much to learn.
I'm so how do I put this?
(33:04):
I'm so pro-training anddevelopment, I think it's so
important, but I'm so concernedfor some of my big clients that
they don't build in their budgetthe training piece and the
practice piece, so they losemillions of dollars.
(33:25):
If you look at a bunch oforganizations just doing almost
a compliance check the boxversus what's our
competency-based model, and Ithink that's what really more
employers want.
They want the competency, notjust the activity.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Well, fortunately, my understanding is that the
Crisis Ready content is recorded, so if you are forgetting 85%
after a week, you can go backand have another look once
you've signed up.
There we go, dr Bill.
Before we wrap up for today,how can our listeners connect
with you and, of course, how canthey learn more about the new
Crisis Ready program?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Yeah, thanks very much, bill.
Wwwcrisisreadyca the course isCrisis Ready Workplaces.
You can look at HR News Canada,where you'll find Todd's good
work, or HR Law Canada, as wellas wwwhowardhrcom.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
And in addition to that, I will include a link to
the new podcast with Bill andBill the Two Bills, and so you
can listen to that too and learneven more Dr Bill the two Bills
.
And then so you can, you can,you can listen to that too and
learn even more Dr Bill.
I think this is like the thirdor fourth time you've been on
this show now.
It's always a pleasure, sothank you very much for being my
guest and listeners.
Until next time, Happy working.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Thanks for listening to the HR chat show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
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