July 31, 2025 • 23 mins
What happens when you combine archaeological curiosity with data science expertise? You get Mark Lawrence's fascinating approach to HR analytics.
In this conversation, Mark shares his unconventional career journey from aspiring Indiana Jones to Head of Analytics and Reporting at Deloitte, revealing how his fundamental desire to understand why things work the way they do connects these seemingly disparate fields.
With over 25 years of experience across multiple disciplines, Mark offers rare insights into how analytics can transform HR from a traditional service function into a strategic powerhouse. He candidly discusses the cultural divide that often exists between HR professionals and analytics specialists, describing how most "HR colleagues look at their analytics colleagues as if they're from another species." His practical suggestions for bridging this gap go beyond technical solutions to address the human factors that determine success or failure in data-driven HR initiatives.
Mark challenges both HR and analytics professionals to reconsider their relationships and expectations. For analytics specialists, he emphasizes the importance of demystifying their work and showing "the art of the possible" in accessible ways. For HR leaders, he highlights the extraordinary value hidden within their data ecosystems, suggesting that despite common complaints about HR data quality, the breadth and depth of people information represents a gold mine of analytical opportunity when properly approached.
Connect with Mark through LinkedIn or email him at mark@datadrivenhr.co.uk to learn more about his research on closing the expectation gap between analytics leaders and senior executives. And don't miss his upcoming presentation at Disrupt Manchester on September 24th, where he'll share lessons from both inside and outside the HR domain.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
HRGazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and
joining me on the pod for thefirst time is Mark Lawrence,
head of Analytics and Reportingover at Deloitte.
With a background in managementconsultancy, mark has performed
(00:47):
a variety of analytical,project management and
leadership roles acrosscorporate HR, learning and
deployment functions, it andother functions for over 25
years.
Formerly a member of IBM's toptalent and business and
technical leaders communitiesand GSK's top talent pool, Mark
has a proven track record ofstrategic thinking and service
transformation.
(01:07):
Mark is also an experiencedmentor and recruiter who has led
several high-performing teamswhilst serving on numerous
professional research bodies.
He designs and facilitatestraining events and speaks
regularly at conferences ontopics ranging from ethics to
business partnering, fromadvanced analytics to data
(01:28):
visualization and from hr techto embedding culture.
Uh, one of his upcoming gigs,he's uh, I'm very happy to say.
I'm very delighted to say thathe's uh generously offered to
come and speak at a disruptevent in manchester in september
, so he and I get to hang outthere.
Mark, how are you doing?
Welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Bill, thank you for having me.
It's great to be here.
You make me sound very busy inyour introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, it sounds like you are, mark.
I think you do it for yourself.
Beyond my wee introduction justa moment ago, as we always like
to do on this show, why don'tyou take a minute or two and
just add to what I've said there?
If you don't mind introducingyourself, telling our listeners
a bit more about yourself, yourloves and what gets you up in
the morning?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
fantastic, happy to.
So.
My name is Mark and I've beenworking in HR and analytics well
since at least before analyticswas a word probably just over
25 years We'll not give away toomuch and I am a father of four.
I live in Yorkshire, I travelquite extensively and in terms
(02:38):
of my likes and dislikes, Isuppose the thing to know about
me is I come from a verysporting background.
I played a lot of rugby unionwhen I was younger, a lot of
cricket, a lot of judo, and Ithink that probably has formed
me and my personality andprobably some of the choices
(03:00):
that I've made through my careeras I've gone onward.
So perhaps we'll unpick alittle bit of that later on.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show show.
(03:29):
I've actually just recentlywrapped up um a season of
another podcast that I co-hostfocused on lessons from elite
sports that can be taken intothe corporate world actually.
So, uh, if we ever do anotherseason around that I I know a
man who I can come and chat toand get some, get some more
thoughts we could certainly getour geek on there, bill so mark,
your career path has been, uh,pretty unusual.
(03:51):
Okay, so, from my understandinghere, um, it says from
archaeologist what to accountantto analytics archaeologist
really, this is brilliant.
Uh, what initially sparked yourinterest in hr and how it?
How has it evolved over theyears?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
yeah, you know, I I consider myself very fortunate
to have to have tried quite alot of different things, as, as
long as they all start with a,as as it says there um, I think
to start with my interest inhistory.
Uh took me into archaeology andum, and I really wanted to be
indiana jones.
(04:29):
But then when I graduated Ifound there weren't many jobs
for indiana jones and I wasvolunteering, shattering a few
dreams and a few myths and um.
And then I was offered a roleat PwC and I was very fortunate
to join.
I tried a couple of differentthings at PwC.
(04:52):
Eventually, after a stintbackpacking as well, I was
offered a wonderful opportunityto work in our learning and
knowledge department as afinance manager.
It turns out I wasn't a verygood accountant, even though I
was fortunate enough to besupported with my studies there
(05:15):
by PwC.
But I made a career choicethere that really shaped
probably the rest of my career.
I managed to find somebody toattract into my team who
actually did want to be anaccountant and had an interest
there.
My boss at the time said well,you've kind of made yourself
(05:37):
redundant, what is it thatyou're going to do?
And I said it strikes me thatwe in learning have never really
been able to figure out how toanswer the question of value.
When we are asked at the end ofeach year, how have you
contributed to the business?
The answer is basically whetheror not we were over or under
(05:57):
budget, and I felt there had tobe a different way.
That really then stemmed into mylove of data, and it was
through that love of data butworking in learning, working in
knowledge management and then,more broadly, working in HR,
that I found a very fertileground for something which was
(06:19):
ticking a lot of boxes in myhead, but things that people
were struggling to answer, andso I found that there was this
wonderful way of trying toquantify and understand what's
going on with people, what'sgoing on with their training
decisions initially, what'sgoing on with why they're
(06:42):
motivated to do that kind oftraining, how that then starts
to feed into their ownperceptions of their career
journey, their career paths,whether or not they are getting
enough learning, whether thatthen relates to a decision to
leave an organization or then,in fact, whether that becomes
part of an organization's valueproposition and attracts people.
(07:08):
So those were some of thequestions that were starting to
open up to me, but ultimately itis that curiosity and that need
that I have to understand whythings are the way they are.
That links very closely fromanalytics and HR, all the way
back from that archaeologistearlier on.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes
things up, it makes you thinkdifferently and it leaves you
inspired.
That event is Disrupt HR.
The format is 14 speakers, 5minutes each and slides rotate
every 15 seconds.
If you're an HR professional, aCEO, a technologist or a
community leader and you've gotsomething to say about talent,
(07:53):
culture or technology, Disruptis the place.
It's coming soon to a city nearyou.
Learn more at disrupthrco.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You ever get the hat, the Indiana Jones hat.
I could definitely see you inthat for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I do have a love of hats as well.
Much to my wife's chagrin, Ihave a selection of hats all
hanging on the wall by the frontdoor.
One of them is that very firstarchaeology hat.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Brilliant, love it.
Ok, so you work for a littleknown company called Deloitte.
They do amazing things.
How do you, how do you, stayupdated with the latest trends
and advancements in HR analytics, and are there any resources or
tools that you findparticularly valuable that you
can share with our listenerstoday?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, look, I think it's really important to ensure
that we are continuallydeveloping, and especially for
those of us working in technicaldisciplines where the pace of
change is so fast, and, ofcourse, in an organization like
Deloitte and other managementconsultancies, your currency is
(09:13):
very much how you can bring aleading edge perspective or
guide a customer or a client onthe right course of action, even
in non-client facing roles and,in fact, other organizations.
It is that ability to inspireconfidence and inspire
(09:35):
credibility that if you're notcontinually keeping your skills
sharpened and honed, theneventually somebody else will
come along who can do that.
So for me, it's not only makingsure that we are doing our best
work, but it's about makingsure that we are sustaining not
(09:56):
just ourselves for the currentjob but actually for our future
opportunities as well.
So to your question aboutresources, I think one of the
things that we're so fortunateabout with people analytics is
the strength of the network.
There is just an incrediblearray of talent and I can point
(10:19):
to probably 50 to 100 peopleanalytics leaders throughout the
UK who are really knowledgeable, really open, very conscious to
try and help develop each other, all for the good of the
discipline.
And that's just in the UK, butwe have some tremendous links
(10:41):
across the Atlantic with ourfriends in North America, across
the channel, with our friendsin Europe and even beyond there.
Last week I was training a groupin Bahrain.
I've been to Singapore, I'vebeen to various other places
China as well and what is commonthroughout all of those areas
(11:03):
is, firstly, an incredibleappetite for learning, the
desire to push boundaries, and Ithink there is a shared
appreciation of the fact that,because this is still quite a
young discipline, we have atremendous opportunity to define
(11:24):
new areas of study, to reallyseek out those areas to add
value that haven't been donebefore.
So, yes, on the one side, we canuse our network to draw
examples and in many senses thatprovides a great way to test
and experiment and see if we cando certain things.
But once you start tounderstand and feel that
(11:48):
methodology, you can see theopportunities and you can apply
it in all sorts of innovativenew ways.
So that network, I think, is soimportant.
Of course, there are someonline learning resources and an
ever-growing array of those allthe time there are some
(12:08):
face-to-face learningopportunities and and I won't go
into into mentioning the youknow many of those, but I think
there's still a tremendous setof resources that suits every
learning style excellent, verygood answer.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Thank you very much.
Uh, go on.
Then you said you said I canname 50 of these moves and
shakers in the people analyticsspace just in the uk.
Then you started mentioning allthese cool people around the
world.
Go on then for a chap who lovestagging people on the
associated LinkedIn posts.
When I put out an episode, anew episode, who would be three
(12:44):
or four of those movers andshakers that I should absolutely
be tagging on a post about thisstuff?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
That's a fundamentally unfair question,
bill.
I'm shocked that you put that.
Look, I think the first thingto think about is the objective
right.
So whether or not it is aboutgaining followers and
followership and promoting andamplifying the message followers
(13:13):
and followership and promotingand amplifying the message then
probably people like David GreenI'm sure is a name that many of
your listeners will be veryfamiliar with and David and I
we've known each other for manyyears.
In fact, we both worked at IBM,although we didn't really know
each other at the time.
Then I think if your messagewas particularly to dive into a
(13:33):
certain discipline or a certainprovocation, then you know
there's certainly some others Ifit were around.
You know organizationalpsychology, for example.
I've worked with some tremendousguys and certainly I'll use
this opportunity just to give ashout to my friend, tommy Powell
, who I worked with at GSKreally really good guy.
(13:57):
We had a great team there and agreat laugh.
If it were to look at theacademic side of things, then
probably you can look at peoplelike Dave Ulrich, andy Charlwood
, even Josh Burson and manyother academics.
Alec Levinson and I have quitea deep relationship as well, but
(14:19):
I don't want to pass over theopportunity to mention a couple
of people who have beentremendous inspiration and
mentors to me over the years.
Inspiration and mentors to meover the years.
Max Blumberg is a greatprovocateur and somebody who's
always looking to keep thediscipline, thinking about
(14:40):
future technologies.
And, of course, jonathan Farrar, who has been my mentor and an
inspiration since I was at IBMand through our various paths,
and I continue to be a greatsupporter of his as well okay,
well done.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
You mentioned a few folks who have been on this show
in the past, such as joshperson and dave, and a bunch of
other people that I shouldprobably be chasing for an
interview as well.
Um, what, what challenges markhave you have you faced when
trying to integrate dataanalytics into hr processes, and
how have you overcome those?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
yeah, it's a really important topic for people
analytics at the moment, and Iwould urge other hr colleagues
to to sit up and take note atthis point.
The problem that I see is thatmost HR colleagues look at their
analytics colleagues as ifthey're from another species.
(15:39):
Yes, you kind of know about HRand, yes, we kind of sit on the
same floor, but ultimately youwork with data and I work with
my customers or with mypersonnel or with my processes,
and it's very difficult to bringthe two together.
So often that alignment andthat desire to really try to
(16:02):
make things work together can bea barrier that we have to try
and break down.
What I found works quite wellthere is to show the art of the
possible and to try anddemystify what we are doing.
When we're talking aboutanalytics, often it's kind of
perceived to be a bit of a darkart and, depending on what it is
(16:24):
that you're trying to achieve,there are some incredibly
advanced statisticalmethodologies or data science
approaches which are adopted.
However, it doesn't have to bethat way.
I think one of the lessons thatI was taught very early on was
that a causal model can actuallyjust be written down on the
(16:47):
back of an envelope.
It's about understanding what itis that we're trying to achieve
and just looking at problems ina slightly different way.
If I were to then think aboutwell, ok, we get some of our HR
colleagues on board at themoment is that there is a
(17:17):
disconnect between seniorleaders and what they are
expecting their analytics teamsto deliver, versus what the
people analytics leaders, whohave gone through a huge amount
of learning and development, andwhat they are expecting that
they will deliver.
So if we have a gap between thepeople analytics leader and
(17:38):
their manager or their CHRO ortheir senior sponsor, then that
gap can be quite difficult tobridge and often it goes
unacknowledged until there isfrustration, disappointment and
ultimately it leads to failurein that relationship.
So I'm actually working on someresearch at the moment which is
(18:00):
seeking to explore this andhopefully, bill, we can use this
show as a little bit of a plugfor anyone who wants to
contribute to that research, uh,to perhaps reach out to me mark
, I love a love, a plug.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'm all about a plug.
So let's continue with plugging, shall we?
You are one of our esteemedspeakers at the Disrupt
Manchester event that Imentioned in the intro a little
while ago.
I think it's September 24th, Ithink.
Don't quote me on that,listeners, there'll be links in
the show notes, I'm sure, andyou can register there.
If you links in the show notes,I'm sure, uh, and you can
(18:33):
register there if you're in thethe northwest of england.
Um, I'd love to get a littlesnippet of an insight around the
session that you're going to bepresenting.
So just to remind our listeners, with disrupt, it's five
minutes, 20 slides, 15 secondsper slide.
There is no mercy.
We automate.
We automate those slides torotate every 15 seconds.
(18:54):
So it's quite a uniquechallenge and mark's been very
kind, uh, to to offer to be oneof our illustrious speakers at
the event.
Are you able, mark, please, totake a minute and uh and tease
our listeners a little bit aboutwhat you'll be addressing at
that summit?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
of course, and I hope it's the 24th of september.
That's the data I have in mydiary okay, very good so, um,
currently I'm working, uh,outside of hr.
I'm leading a reporting andanalytics function, um, which is
driving a lot of our enablingfunctions within Deloitte, and
(19:33):
one of the reasons I was soexcited about this role was that
it gave me a chance to reallylook at how reporting and
analytics and data is perceivedand managed outside of HR.
And then what interests me nowis what are the lessons that we
can take back into HR?
What are the things that otherparts of the business do really
(19:54):
really well that we can learnand try to ensure that we
accelerate our service?
One of the other things that Isee is actually there are some
things which HR already doesquite well as well, but perhaps
doesn't perceive how well itdoes, and maybe we hear
frustration from some of our HRcolleagues about those things,
(20:15):
but actually other parts of thebusiness are hugely envious of
the fact that we can do certainthings.
So it's that duality betweenwhere we do a great job in HR,
where we might have some areasthat we can improve upon, but
also actually to celebrate someof the great stuff that we can
do and some of the greatunderstanding that we have.
(20:37):
For example, hr has anincredible richness of data.
Yes, most people will talkabout their HR systems and say,
oh, the data's rubbish.
We wish it was better, it's toocomplicated, and so on.
But but actually, when you lookat the breadth and depth of
opportunity there that thatrichness of data provides, that
(21:02):
creates so many wonderfulopportunities.
So I think we also need to takea little bit of time in that 20
minute slot to try andcelebrate some of the great
things that we do in HR as well.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Sounds wonderful.
Just so you don't get a shockon the day, it's five minutes
mark with 20 slides, so I'd hatefor you to turn up expecting a
full 20 minutes there and findout to the contrary.
Okay, just before we wrap upfor today, how can our listeners
connect with you?
(21:36):
Uh, how can they learn moreabout data-driven hr and how can
they learn more about all thecool things happening over at
deloitte?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
so I'm very happy to to take any any emails at mark
at data-driven hrcouk.
I'm also also very active onsocial media.
Linkedin is usually the bestway to get my attention and I'm
very happy to connect withanyone who would like to do so.
As I already mentioned, I thinkthe network is incredibly
(22:08):
strong there.
So by connecting with me,you're also connecting to that
network of expertise and I willalways try to make time to have
a conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
if it's helpful to your listeners, Excellent.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today Mark Lawrence,
thank you very much for being myguest on this episode of the HR
Chat Show.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Thank you, bill.
It's been wonderful to be here,big fan.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And I look forward to meeting you in person in
Manchester on the 24th ofSeptember.
I just double checked that itis the 24th of September and
until then, listeners, as always, happy working.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
HRGazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and
joining me on the pod for thefirst time is Mark Lawrence,
head of Analytics and Reportingover at Deloitte.
With a background in managementconsultancy, mark has performed
(00:47):
a variety of analytical,project management and
leadership roles acrosscorporate HR, learning and
deployment functions, it andother functions for over 25
years.
Formerly a member of IBM's toptalent and business and
technical leaders communitiesand GSK's top talent pool, Mark
has a proven track record ofstrategic thinking and service
transformation.
(01:07):
Mark is also an experiencedmentor and recruiter who has led
several high-performing teamswhilst serving on numerous
professional research bodies.
He designs and facilitatestraining events and speaks
regularly at conferences ontopics ranging from ethics to
business partnering, fromadvanced analytics to data
(01:28):
visualization and from hr techto embedding culture.
Uh, one of his upcoming gigs,he's uh, I'm very happy to say.
I'm very delighted to say thathe's uh generously offered to
come and speak at a disruptevent in manchester in september
, so he and I get to hang outthere.
Mark, how are you doing?
Welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Bill, thank you for having me.
It's great to be here.
You make me sound very busy inyour introduction.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, it sounds like you are, mark.
I think you do it for yourself.
Beyond my wee introduction justa moment ago, as we always like
to do on this show, why don'tyou take a minute or two and
just add to what I've said there?
If you don't mind introducingyourself, telling our listeners
a bit more about yourself, yourloves and what gets you up in
the morning?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
fantastic, happy to.
So.
My name is Mark and I've beenworking in HR and analytics well
since at least before analyticswas a word probably just over
25 years We'll not give away toomuch and I am a father of four.
I live in Yorkshire, I travelquite extensively and in terms
(02:38):
of my likes and dislikes, Isuppose the thing to know about
me is I come from a verysporting background.
I played a lot of rugby unionwhen I was younger, a lot of
cricket, a lot of judo, and Ithink that probably has formed
me and my personality andprobably some of the choices
(03:00):
that I've made through my careeras I've gone onward.
So perhaps we'll unpick alittle bit of that later on.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show show.
(03:29):
I've actually just recentlywrapped up um a season of
another podcast that I co-hostfocused on lessons from elite
sports that can be taken intothe corporate world actually.
So, uh, if we ever do anotherseason around that I I know a
man who I can come and chat toand get some, get some more
thoughts we could certainly getour geek on there, bill so mark,
your career path has been, uh,pretty unusual.
(03:51):
Okay, so, from my understandinghere, um, it says from
archaeologist what to accountantto analytics archaeologist
really, this is brilliant.
Uh, what initially sparked yourinterest in hr and how it?
How has it evolved over theyears?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
yeah, you know, I I consider myself very fortunate
to have to have tried quite alot of different things, as, as
long as they all start with a,as as it says there um, I think
to start with my interest inhistory.
Uh took me into archaeology andum, and I really wanted to be
indiana jones.
(04:29):
But then when I graduated Ifound there weren't many jobs
for indiana jones and I wasvolunteering, shattering a few
dreams and a few myths and um.
And then I was offered a roleat PwC and I was very fortunate
to join.
I tried a couple of differentthings at PwC.
(04:52):
Eventually, after a stintbackpacking as well, I was
offered a wonderful opportunityto work in our learning and
knowledge department as afinance manager.
It turns out I wasn't a verygood accountant, even though I
was fortunate enough to besupported with my studies there
(05:15):
by PwC.
But I made a career choicethere that really shaped
probably the rest of my career.
I managed to find somebody toattract into my team who
actually did want to be anaccountant and had an interest
there.
My boss at the time said well,you've kind of made yourself
(05:37):
redundant, what is it thatyou're going to do?
And I said it strikes me thatwe in learning have never really
been able to figure out how toanswer the question of value.
When we are asked at the end ofeach year, how have you
contributed to the business?
The answer is basically whetheror not we were over or under
(05:57):
budget, and I felt there had tobe a different way.
That really then stemmed into mylove of data, and it was
through that love of data butworking in learning, working in
knowledge management and then,more broadly, working in HR,
that I found a very fertileground for something which was
(06:19):
ticking a lot of boxes in myhead, but things that people
were struggling to answer, andso I found that there was this
wonderful way of trying toquantify and understand what's
going on with people, what'sgoing on with their training
decisions initially, what'sgoing on with why they're
(06:42):
motivated to do that kind oftraining, how that then starts
to feed into their ownperceptions of their career
journey, their career paths,whether or not they are getting
enough learning, whether thatthen relates to a decision to
leave an organization or then,in fact, whether that becomes
part of an organization's valueproposition and attracts people.
(07:08):
So those were some of thequestions that were starting to
open up to me, but ultimately itis that curiosity and that need
that I have to understand whythings are the way they are.
That links very closely fromanalytics and HR, all the way
back from that archaeologistearlier on.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes
things up, it makes you thinkdifferently and it leaves you
inspired.
That event is Disrupt HR.
The format is 14 speakers, 5minutes each and slides rotate
every 15 seconds.
If you're an HR professional, aCEO, a technologist or a
community leader and you've gotsomething to say about talent,
(07:53):
culture or technology, Disruptis the place.
It's coming soon to a city nearyou.
Learn more at disrupthrco.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You ever get the hat, the Indiana Jones hat.
I could definitely see you inthat for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
I do have a love of hats as well.
Much to my wife's chagrin, Ihave a selection of hats all
hanging on the wall by the frontdoor.
One of them is that very firstarchaeology hat.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Brilliant, love it.
Ok, so you work for a littleknown company called Deloitte.
They do amazing things.
How do you, how do you, stayupdated with the latest trends
and advancements in HR analytics, and are there any resources or
tools that you findparticularly valuable that you
can share with our listenerstoday?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
Yeah, look, I think it's really important to ensure
that we are continuallydeveloping, and especially for
those of us working in technicaldisciplines where the pace of
change is so fast, and, ofcourse, in an organization like
Deloitte and other managementconsultancies, your currency is
(09:13):
very much how you can bring aleading edge perspective or
guide a customer or a client onthe right course of action, even
in non-client facing roles and,in fact, other organizations.
It is that ability to inspireconfidence and inspire
(09:35):
credibility that if you're notcontinually keeping your skills
sharpened and honed, theneventually somebody else will
come along who can do that.
So for me, it's not only makingsure that we are doing our best
work, but it's about makingsure that we are sustaining not
(09:56):
just ourselves for the currentjob but actually for our future
opportunities as well.
So to your question aboutresources, I think one of the
things that we're so fortunateabout with people analytics is
the strength of the network.
There is just an incrediblearray of talent and I can point
(10:19):
to probably 50 to 100 peopleanalytics leaders throughout the
UK who are really knowledgeable, really open, very conscious to
try and help develop each other, all for the good of the
discipline.
And that's just in the UK, butwe have some tremendous links
(10:41):
across the Atlantic with ourfriends in North America, across
the channel, with our friendsin Europe and even beyond there.
Last week I was training a groupin Bahrain.
I've been to Singapore, I'vebeen to various other places
China as well and what is commonthroughout all of those areas
(11:03):
is, firstly, an incredibleappetite for learning, the
desire to push boundaries, and Ithink there is a shared
appreciation of the fact that,because this is still quite a
young discipline, we have atremendous opportunity to define
(11:24):
new areas of study, to reallyseek out those areas to add
value that haven't been donebefore.
So, yes, on the one side, we canuse our network to draw
examples and in many senses thatprovides a great way to test
and experiment and see if we cando certain things.
But once you start tounderstand and feel that
(11:48):
methodology, you can see theopportunities and you can apply
it in all sorts of innovativenew ways.
So that network, I think, is soimportant.
Of course, there are someonline learning resources and an
ever-growing array of those allthe time there are some
(12:08):
face-to-face learningopportunities and and I won't go
into into mentioning the youknow many of those, but I think
there's still a tremendous setof resources that suits every
learning style excellent, verygood answer.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Thank you very much.
Uh, go on.
Then you said you said I canname 50 of these moves and
shakers in the people analyticsspace just in the uk.
Then you started mentioning allthese cool people around the
world.
Go on then for a chap who lovestagging people on the
associated LinkedIn posts.
When I put out an episode, anew episode, who would be three
(12:44):
or four of those movers andshakers that I should absolutely
be tagging on a post about thisstuff?
Speaker 3 (12:50):
That's a fundamentally unfair question,
bill.
I'm shocked that you put that.
Look, I think the first thingto think about is the objective
right.
So whether or not it is aboutgaining followers and
followership and promoting andamplifying the message followers
(13:13):
and followership and promotingand amplifying the message then
probably people like David GreenI'm sure is a name that many of
your listeners will be veryfamiliar with and David and I
we've known each other for manyyears.
In fact, we both worked at IBM,although we didn't really know
each other at the time.
Then I think if your messagewas particularly to dive into a
(13:33):
certain discipline or a certainprovocation, then you know
there's certainly some others Ifit were around.
You know organizationalpsychology, for example.
I've worked with some tremendousguys and certainly I'll use
this opportunity just to give ashout to my friend, tommy Powell
, who I worked with at GSKreally really good guy.
(13:57):
We had a great team there and agreat laugh.
If it were to look at theacademic side of things, then
probably you can look at peoplelike Dave Ulrich, andy Charlwood
, even Josh Burson and manyother academics.
Alec Levinson and I have quitea deep relationship as well, but
(14:19):
I don't want to pass over theopportunity to mention a couple
of people who have beentremendous inspiration and
mentors to me over the years.
Inspiration and mentors to meover the years.
Max Blumberg is a greatprovocateur and somebody who's
always looking to keep thediscipline, thinking about
(14:40):
future technologies.
And, of course, jonathan Farrar, who has been my mentor and an
inspiration since I was at IBMand through our various paths,
and I continue to be a greatsupporter of his as well okay,
well done.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
You mentioned a few folks who have been on this show
in the past, such as joshperson and dave, and a bunch of
other people that I shouldprobably be chasing for an
interview as well.
Um, what, what challenges markhave you have you faced when
trying to integrate dataanalytics into hr processes, and
how have you overcome those?
Speaker 3 (15:19):
yeah, it's a really important topic for people
analytics at the moment, and Iwould urge other hr colleagues
to to sit up and take note atthis point.
The problem that I see is thatmost HR colleagues look at their
analytics colleagues as ifthey're from another species.
(15:39):
Yes, you kind of know about HRand, yes, we kind of sit on the
same floor, but ultimately youwork with data and I work with
my customers or with mypersonnel or with my processes,
and it's very difficult to bringthe two together.
So often that alignment andthat desire to really try to
(16:02):
make things work together can bea barrier that we have to try
and break down.
What I found works quite wellthere is to show the art of the
possible and to try anddemystify what we are doing.
When we're talking aboutanalytics, often it's kind of
perceived to be a bit of a darkart and, depending on what it is
(16:24):
that you're trying to achieve,there are some incredibly
advanced statisticalmethodologies or data science
approaches which are adopted.
However, it doesn't have to bethat way.
I think one of the lessons thatI was taught very early on was
that a causal model can actuallyjust be written down on the
(16:47):
back of an envelope.
It's about understanding what itis that we're trying to achieve
and just looking at problems ina slightly different way.
If I were to then think aboutwell, ok, we get some of our HR
colleagues on board at themoment is that there is a
(17:17):
disconnect between seniorleaders and what they are
expecting their analytics teamsto deliver, versus what the
people analytics leaders, whohave gone through a huge amount
of learning and development, andwhat they are expecting that
they will deliver.
So if we have a gap between thepeople analytics leader and
(17:38):
their manager or their CHRO ortheir senior sponsor, then that
gap can be quite difficult tobridge and often it goes
unacknowledged until there isfrustration, disappointment and
ultimately it leads to failurein that relationship.
So I'm actually working on someresearch at the moment which is
(18:00):
seeking to explore this andhopefully, bill, we can use this
show as a little bit of a plugfor anyone who wants to
contribute to that research, uh,to perhaps reach out to me mark
, I love a love, a plug.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I'm all about a plug.
So let's continue with plugging, shall we?
You are one of our esteemedspeakers at the Disrupt
Manchester event that Imentioned in the intro a little
while ago.
I think it's September 24th, Ithink.
Don't quote me on that,listeners, there'll be links in
the show notes, I'm sure, andyou can register there.
If you links in the show notes,I'm sure, uh, and you can
(18:33):
register there if you're in thethe northwest of england.
Um, I'd love to get a littlesnippet of an insight around the
session that you're going to bepresenting.
So just to remind our listeners, with disrupt, it's five
minutes, 20 slides, 15 secondsper slide.
There is no mercy.
We automate.
We automate those slides torotate every 15 seconds.
(18:54):
So it's quite a uniquechallenge and mark's been very
kind, uh, to to offer to be oneof our illustrious speakers at
the event.
Are you able, mark, please, totake a minute and uh and tease
our listeners a little bit aboutwhat you'll be addressing at
that summit?
Speaker 3 (19:11):
of course, and I hope it's the 24th of september.
That's the data I have in mydiary okay, very good so, um,
currently I'm working, uh,outside of hr.
I'm leading a reporting andanalytics function, um, which is
driving a lot of our enablingfunctions within Deloitte, and
(19:33):
one of the reasons I was soexcited about this role was that
it gave me a chance to reallylook at how reporting and
analytics and data is perceivedand managed outside of HR.
And then what interests me nowis what are the lessons that we
can take back into HR?
What are the things that otherparts of the business do really
(19:54):
really well that we can learnand try to ensure that we
accelerate our service?
One of the other things that Isee is actually there are some
things which HR already doesquite well as well, but perhaps
doesn't perceive how well itdoes, and maybe we hear
frustration from some of our HRcolleagues about those things,
(20:15):
but actually other parts of thebusiness are hugely envious of
the fact that we can do certainthings.
So it's that duality betweenwhere we do a great job in HR,
where we might have some areasthat we can improve upon, but
also actually to celebrate someof the great stuff that we can
do and some of the greatunderstanding that we have.
(20:37):
For example, hr has anincredible richness of data.
Yes, most people will talkabout their HR systems and say,
oh, the data's rubbish.
We wish it was better, it's toocomplicated, and so on.
But but actually, when you lookat the breadth and depth of
opportunity there that thatrichness of data provides, that
(21:02):
creates so many wonderfulopportunities.
So I think we also need to takea little bit of time in that 20
minute slot to try andcelebrate some of the great
things that we do in HR as well.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Sounds wonderful.
Just so you don't get a shockon the day, it's five minutes
mark with 20 slides, so I'd hatefor you to turn up expecting a
full 20 minutes there and findout to the contrary.
Okay, just before we wrap upfor today, how can our listeners
connect with you?
(21:36):
Uh, how can they learn moreabout data-driven hr and how can
they learn more about all thecool things happening over at
deloitte?
Speaker 3 (21:44):
so I'm very happy to to take any any emails at mark
at data-driven hrcouk.
I'm also also very active onsocial media.
Linkedin is usually the bestway to get my attention and I'm
very happy to connect withanyone who would like to do so.
As I already mentioned, I thinkthe network is incredibly
(22:08):
strong there.
So by connecting with me,you're also connecting to that
network of expertise and I willalways try to make time to have
a conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
if it's helpful to your listeners, Excellent.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today Mark Lawrence,
thank you very much for being myguest on this episode of the HR
Chat Show.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Thank you, bill.
It's been wonderful to be here,big fan.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
And I look forward to meeting you in person in
Manchester on the 24th ofSeptember.
I just double checked that itis the 24th of September and
until then, listeners, as always, happy working.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
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