August 27, 2025 • 23 mins
Shakil Butt never planned to leave his comfortable 20-year finance career for HR leadership. What began as a three-month interim assignment transformed into a passionate pursuit that would redefine his understanding of strategic people management and earn him recognition as one of the UK's most influential HR leaders.
Bringing his finance background to HR gave Shakil a unique advantage. "Every single decision I'd ever made as a finance person had a people implication," he reflects, highlighting the critical intersection between financial decisions and human capital. This perspective helps him bridge the persistent gap between HR's traditional focus on people and the data-driven approach that commands attention in the boardroom.
Shakil, a speaker at next month's DisruptHR Birmingham Summit, challenges HR professionals to move beyond trendy but superficial initiatives like "Fresh Fruit Fridays" by focusing on measurable impact. "What's the problem you're trying to fix? What's the opportunity you're trying to take advantage of?" Without answers to these fundamental questions, HR initiatives lack strategic value. His approach transforms HR from what he calls "the poor cousin to finance" into a vital strategic function with demonstrable business impact.
When discussing organizational culture and equity initiatives with HRchat show host Bill Banham, Shakil offers a critique of "performative EDI" – actions taken for show rather than substance. "Culture is exactly what you allow to happen in the absence of any real thought," he notes, emphasizing that meaningful cultural change requires intentional leadership rather than disconnected programs. True equity work means addressing systemic issues throughout the employee lifecycle with clear metrics and ownership, not simply creating employee resource groups or celebrating diversity events without purpose.
Drawing inspiration from his love of sci-fi and fantasy, Shakil envisions HR professionals as potential organizational heroes who have the courage to "do the right thing" even when difficult. His message resonates with HR practitioners seeking to elevate their impact: embrace data without losing humanity, lead with purpose rather than trends, and have the bravery to champion meaningful change.
Connect with Shakil on LinkedIn
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Shaquille Butt, it's my absolute pleasure and honor
to welcome you to the HR ChatShow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm very well.
Thank you, bill, and thepleasure is all mine.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you for having me.
So, as we like to do on thisshow, let's start by getting to
know you a little bit before weget into the hard-hitting stuff.
Let's start with your journey.
You began in finance and madethe transition to HR back in
2009, when you were about 10, Iguess.
What motivated that shift andhow has your finance background
(00:58):
helped shape your approach topeople management?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It's a very good question, bill, and it's one I
never planned.
It wasn't a career journey ortransition that I ever planned.
It wasn't a midlife crisis thatI was going through.
It was purely by accident.
The organization was goingthrough a restructure.
I've been in finance for 20years, and we were searching for
a HR director, and I was askedcould I be the interim HR
director for three months?
(01:22):
And I thought three months was,you know okay, why not?
I was.
I was fairly comfortable andand if I'm being very honest,
not learning anymore quitestagnant, been doing the same
thing for a very long period oftime.
I'd gone through a number ofaudits and a number of finance.
You know software changes, youknow policy rewrites, teams so I
thought, yeah, this sounds like, uh, it could be interesting.
Um, did it for three months.
(01:44):
Three months became six, sixbecame nine, nine became
eighteen, and I started reallyenjoying it.
At the 18th month point, I wasasked to go back to university,
which I kicked and screamedabout at the time.
To go, and actually, you know,foreign.
To be the incumbent HR director.
I had to actually get qualified.
To be credible is what theorganization believed.
Best thing I ever did, though,because they actually taught me
(02:05):
what I already know about hrfrom finance.
I thought I knew what hr was.
My view, my understanding, wasvery transactional.
It was very limited.
Um.
It was very process driven,wasn't very strategic, it wasn't
very much thinking about whathr could be.
Going to university was greatbecause I was taught by
lecturers.
You know people like PerryTimms was my lecturer at the
(02:26):
time, which was fantastic.
As you know probably already,he's one of the leading thinkers
in this space.
So I was quite fortunate.
I was actually given a verydifferent kind of mindset at uni
.
It wasn't about taking what wasalready out there and running
with that, but actually thinkingwhat could be done differently.
So that's how I ended up in HR.
(02:51):
Um loved it ever since.
Not look back, although my wifehas on occasion said what about
going back to finance?
It is more secure, there ismore money there, but I'm much
happier where I am.
Um, in terms of the uh, the,the second part of your question
, what was it again?
Just remind me uh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So I was interested to know how has your finance
background shaped your approachto people management?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
being in finance, it is always around looking at the
numbers and the metrics and data.
And when I moved into the hrspace I realized the team I
entered doing what wasn't prettymuch standard for the industry,
you know wasn't doing anythingparticularly great, for the
organization had a very badreputation, well regarded, and
it was because we weren'tactually thinking about how we
aligned with the organisationalstrategy.
(03:31):
What was the organisationtrying to do?
How would we be measuring that?
How could we evidence thebudget that we were asking for?
Very often, when I was on theother side of the table in
finance, if a function anyfunction, not just HR would come
in front of me and not be ableto justify what they're doing,
what difference it would make,how the organization would
benefit from their activities,then I'd be cutting their
(03:51):
budgets left, right and center.
So I do think that's helped mewith my role within HR to
actually think morestrategically, to think about
impact, and I'll come back tothat perhaps later on.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So that's really interesting because we we
interview a lot of CHROs on thisshow and it seems like
increasingly, data leadseverything that senior HR
leadership is doing.
Lots of reasons why positive.
There are some negatives withthat as well.
In my opinion.
Push, push back that I sometimeshear when I'm attending events
such as CIPD or SHERM or HR techand others is you've still got
(04:33):
to.
You've still got to recognizethat people are people, we're
human beings.
We've got to be able tocommunicate and mentor each
other and support each other.
And if, if it's someone who'scoming from a data or finance
background and they go straightinto a CHRO role when they're
more interested in that coldhard data, maybe that's being
lost a little bit.
What you just said there amoment ago about how you went
(04:55):
back to university and that gaveyou a new appreciation of that
humanistic aspect from peoplelike our friend Perry Timms,
Would you recommend that forothers?
So for others coming into thatkind of a role, who are very
money and data focused becausethat's their background, is it
very much worth them taking astep back and saying you know
(05:15):
what?
I need a bigger picture here.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
No, absolutely so.
I'll share this with you, bill.
When I was in finance, I wastrained to believe we were the
most important function, and toan extent, that's partially true
, because we see all the moneycoming in, we see all the money
going out.
We know things that a lot ofthe other perhaps parts of the
organisation, won't appreciate.
However, it's only one slice orone lens to look through, and
(05:38):
when I moved into the HR space,I actually realised every single
decision I'd ever made as afinance person had a people
implication.
And if you're not thinking aboutboth, then you're not really
acting strategically, you'reacting very short term and most
and again it took me time tounderstand and realize this most
CEOs, most senior leaders comein.
They give, they give them athree-year term, a five-year
term.
They want to show impact, theywant to show results, so they
(06:00):
turn to the you know, thefinance person.
I cut costs, how can I raiserevenue?
And it's more than just that.
And if you're only thinkingshort-term, you're not being
strategic.
And if that's the mandate we'regiving our leaders, then of
course they're going to actshort-term.
But actually to be strategic,you need to be thinking about
the people implications ofpeople.
Ultimately, who would supportyou?
Not the numbers.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at HRGazettecom.
And now back to the show.
You have, of course, beenrepeatedly recognized as one of
(06:43):
the UK's HR most influential.
In your view, Shaquille, whatmakes HR leadership influential
in today's business world?
Is it influential in today'sbusiness world?
Are HR leaders actually gettinga seat at the top, being
listened to?
Give us your take.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
I think we're still struggling.
If I'm being honest, the theadvantage I had as a finance
professional was that my voicewas a given in the boardroom,
and that was perhaps the biggestculture shock to me when I
shifted to HR.
It wasn't automatic, it wasn'ta given.
I wasn't the person that gotreferred to straight away but to
make my case, I said you knowagain, I don't know.
You know, I know and understandwhy HR professionals don't like
(07:26):
data.
Because we don't.
We didn't come into the spaceto deal with numbers, came to
the space to do with people andculture, but without the numbers
.
Unless you, unless you marrythe two and become more
comfortable with the numbers,you're just saying I think I,
you know, I think this is a goodidea.
You know, fresh fruit onFridays, I mean, mean some of
those things I used to comeacross.
I'll be like but why, what?
(07:47):
Why fresh fruit?
Why?
Why Fridays?
You know what?
What?
Well-being Wednesdays?
But what's the problem?
What is the problem you'retrying to fix?
And if you're not answeringthat question, what's the
opportunity that you're tryingto take advantage of?
What's the problem you'retrying to resolve?
If you haven't got the answerto those two questions, you've
got nothing.
So if it is around sicknessabsence, then what are the
problem you're trying to resolve?
If you haven't got the answerto those two questions, you've
got nothing.
So if it is around sicknessabsence, then what are the rates
of sickness absence?
(08:08):
What does that cost thebusiness in real terms?
What is the lost opportunity?
What does that cost theorganization?
Those are your business casearguments for actually then
saying this is why we need toinvest in X, y or Z, whatever
that issue is.
But unless you can show whyyou're asking for investment,
(08:30):
unless you're showing why you'readding value and why the senior
leader should listen to you,you are going to be sat in the
room.
You know, as the, as the poorcousin to finance, and we have
an advantage.
Finance we do, unfortunately,but I think it's shifting.
So finance has a.
You know, there, as you know,there's a statutory requirement
to have you know, um, you know aset of accounts which are
compliant with accountingstandards.
We don't have that for a.
You know for, uh, you know hrprofessionals, but it is
(08:51):
shifting.
We are seeing you know again,um, you know, with the
introduction of the gender paygap and other potential pay gaps
coming on board, um, we aregetting more and more visibility
because of, you know, legalrequirements.
I'm not sure saying that it's ashame that we have to rely on
legislation to make us moreimportant in the in the
workplace.
But there is that shift andit's happening and we can either
(09:13):
get on.
You know, I used to argue with.
You know, not argue, sorry,it's the wrong word.
I used to say to Peter Cheesewhen I was on the board of the
CIPD look, if HR professionalsdon't get on board with numbers,
then once the finance, financeprofessionals realise what is
required, you know, from astatutory perspective, they'll
take ownership and we'llactually get squeezed even
further.
They'll look after the genderpay gap, they'll look after the
number part of our role.
(09:35):
We should be very clear aboutwho our people are, how many
people we have, what are theiradded values, what are the
demographics and how that allplays into the data that we then
need to use to make businesscase arguments in front of other
senior leaders.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
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(10:13):
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Speaker 2 (10:26):
Okay, very good, thank you very much.
And for our audience outside ofthe UK, peter Chees is the CEO
of the CIPD, which is thebiggest association for HR and
L&D professionals in the UnitedKingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland.
Okay, let's continue throughShaquille.
Much of your consultancy worktoday focuses on organisational
(10:47):
culture, of course, but what doyou believe are the essential
ingredients for creating ahealthy and inclusive workplace
culture?
There are so many dimensions tothis.
I'm just going to throw acouple of extra ones at you.
In the last few years, lots ofpeople have gone hybrid or
remote, and that addscomplicating factors to it.
Give us your take.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I think culture is an interesting issue because I
think there was a.
We have come a long way interms of as a HR profession.
We used to talk about humanresources.
We now talk about people andculture, and that's where the
conversation needs to be.
So that's a positive thing, butthe reality is, as you know,
bill, if you don't look afterculture, it will happen by
default.
You'll have a culture, whetheryou take ownership of it or not.
(11:27):
So it makes sense to actuallyhave cultures which are designed
and are actually intentional,and that's where the leadership
role comes in.
Culture is exactly what youallow to happen in the absence
of any real thought.
So if leadership actually takeownership of culture and it's
not about writing more policies,it's actually about what people
see happening in the workplaceand again, this, you know, this
(11:49):
thing with leadership is often,you know, leaders get focused on
the tasks and activities ratherthan thinking about what kind
of, what kind of organization dowe want to be?
What do we really aspire to be?
What really is our vision?
What is our?
What are our values?
And once you start focusingaround values and again, when my
dissertation was actually onvalues, when I did my masters um
(12:10):
it was becoming very clear tome that actually there's always
different values going on inorganizations.
There's the values that theyascribe, that they claim to
aspire to.
There's the values that getactually get translated in
practice.
There's the values that theorganization's staff hope and
wish and dream that theorganization would aspire to,
and the actual values aresomewhere in between.
So taking ownership of thevalues will help to create the
(12:32):
culture that you want toactually, you know, be known for
as an organization, and thatsometimes doesn't mean chasing
money, you know, chasing revenueor, you know, following
industry and trends it'sactually doing sometimes, you
know doing the right thing, andthat's always the hardest thing
(12:59):
to do.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
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(13:20):
We do learn more at my staffshopcom, thanks, and now back to
the HR chat show.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You were involved, of course, in designing the CIPD
level two certificate in EDI or,for our North American
listeners, dei, not quite thesame thing.
Often people in the UK thinkthe E stands for equality
instead of equity, whereas it'scertainly equity in the US,
although that's seen a bigpushback recently.
Anyway, you were involved indesigning that certificate and
(13:49):
have contributed to the CIPD'sEDI program.
Where do most organizations getEDI wrong, shaquille, and how
can the course correct?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
okay.
So it's interesting.
You mentioned EDI as being Ebeing equity in US and equality
in the UK.
I actually think it should beequity, and my new forthcoming
book is actually talking aboutequity rather than equality.
We do have a hang-up around theterm equality, and that's from
the equality at 2010.
So a lot of organisations talkabout equality, but actually
(14:19):
equity is far more greater as aconcept, because it's about
fairness.
It's about treating everybodylike people rather than treating
everybody the same, uh, whichis what you know, um, as if
everybody can be treated thesame, because that's not the
case.
We're all individual humanbeings.
We all have different needs, weall have different challenges
and weaknesses and you know, andthings and obstacles that we
have to overcome.
But in terms of the um, the edispace, I think where we go
(14:41):
wrong and uh, there's a quite afew chapters in my book about
this is actually doing what Icall performative EDI, so doing
the things that are known to bein this space.
So, for example, you're doingmentoring great.
You're doing a parade fantastic.
You've got a bus kitted out tobe on a celebration day.
You're recognizing nationalevents and national weeks
(15:03):
fantastic, so what?
You've got an employee resourcegroup, so what?
It doesn't answer the questionwhy?
Why are you doing that?
What's the problem?
Again, you're trying to solveand often organizations will do
what they see otherorganizations doing and they
will say we've got an employeeresource group, that's great.
My question is okay, howimpactful are they?
Do they have a voice?
Are they just a moan and groansession?
(15:24):
Do they just talk to each otherand complain about the same
things until they become cynical, deflated and actually become
part of the problem?
Do we see them?
As you know, now we have anemployee resource group.
They can advise us on theissues in the organisation.
No, they can't.
Actually, they can help, butthey're not the solution.
They're suffering from thethings that the organisation has
(15:50):
know whether it'sdiscrimination, racism, you know
homophobia, whatever the issueis.
They're suffering from that andyou're asking the people who
are suffering to fix the problemthat they never created.
They can be part of thesolution, but they're not the
solution.
And very often these individualedi initiatives, they stand
alone.
They're not connected, they'renot, they're not strategic.
You know they, they might run.
You know my EDI project mightrun in three months and then
that's it, or it's on thestrength of the EDI lead.
You have a charismatic EDI leadin the role.
(16:11):
All things are going greatuntil that person leaves and
then everything collapses.
Edi has to be or DEI, to use theAmerican term has to be
something which is morestrategic, has to be thought
about long term, has to be ownedby the leadership team and it
comes back down to and I thinkthere's a real shift.
I know across the in the Statesthere's that shift.
Edi hasn't really gone away orDEI hasn't gone away really.
(16:35):
It's actually taking back thatwider ownership of culture.
How do you want our people tofeel in the organization?
That's everyone.
There's a reason why some partsof organizations have felt
alienated because the focus hasbeen on X or Y or Z.
There's been a complianceapproach to EDI, enforcing
pronouns on people.
Not everybody wants to have apronoun pronounced on them If it
(16:58):
is about horses for courses,treat people like individuals,
allow them to be the bestversions of themselves, and
that's for everyone, not justyou know pockets of parts of the
organization or what istrending and what is right now
you know in the news andcapturing headlines.
That's where I think we've gonewrong with edi interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I would like to take you to issue on that, but I do
not have enough time becausethere's so many other things I
want to get through with you, soI'm just going to get you back
on the show to explore that abit more.
Um, you've got a book which Ibelieve is currently available
online and it soon will be inthe shelves as well, and it's
called edi experience.
(17:37):
Uh, what can readers expectfrom it and what gaps do you
hope it fills, beyond whatyou've shared so far in the
current diversity and inclusionliterature?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I wrote the book with the intent to write it for
professionals coming into thisspace.
That was the original scopethat was given to me back in
October and obviously there'sbeen a lot of things that have
happened since October.
And I think that's even morerelevant now than before because
, even though you might arguethis is the wrong time to write
and release a book on EDI, whenthis needs to be a push away
from it, because I recognize thefact that actually the the
(18:09):
activities or the work thatneeds to be done still is now
going to have to be owned bysomebody in organizations when
they're trying to design theircultures.
So I wrote the book with myselfin mind, trying to think about
what would, what would I need tohave known five years ago when
I, before I, came to this space,what would have helped me?
And I recognized actually therewas a lot I didn't know and
there's a lot that actually alot of hr practitioners wouldn't
(18:32):
know.
A lot of edi leads I meetactually don't know so often I
will meet edi leads who arewell-intentioned, very
passionate about a particularstrand of diversity.
They might be from that strandof diversity in the South, they
might be black, they might beAsian, they might be female,
might be gay, and they willpromote a particular and again
they'll have their own biases,obviously because they are from
(18:53):
that particular diverse groupthemselves, and they will
promote a certain level ofthinking in the organization and
ideas in the organization andnot realize actually alienating
others as they as they do so, um, but they actually haven't
understood what edi reallyinvolves and all they're doing
really is they've been given aplatform, they're given an
opportunity and they'll doexactly all those same edi
(19:14):
initiatives that I've seenorganizations do, but they're
not thinking about impact,they're not very clear about why
they're not actually, you know,making a business case argument
for why they are needed in theorganization.
What's going on?
You know I I'd want to designthe metrics.
You know, where do we have aproblem with attraction?
Is there a problem withretention?
Is there a problem withpromotion?
You know I don't want to lookacross that employee life cycle
(19:37):
to understand what's going wrong.
And where are there high numberof cases of employee relation
cases, disciplinaries orgrievances taking place?
Are we, do we have any datafrom exit interviews?
What's the actual problem we'retrying to solve?
If you're not answering thatquestion, then actually all
you're doing is performative,edi.
You're going to get critiqueand you're going to get, you
know, feel disinvalued.
(19:57):
And it's not that people aren'tbuying into the concept of
fairness and equity, it's justthat you haven't been the best
champion and advocate for thething that you're meant to be
championing and advocating for.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I really feel like there are a lot of people who
haven't bought into the conceptof equity If it's talking about
levelling up almost I've heardthis term before reverse
discrimination when it comes toequity.
Now, these are not views that Ishare.
I just think that, um, it's apolemic term and, again, I would
love to get you back on theshow and talk to you more about
this in the future.
(20:27):
But we've only got a couple ofminutes before we've got to wrap
up and there are a couple ofthings that I would uh just to
quickly talk to you about,shaquille, as someone who's
judged very prestigious hrawards.
So, for example, you and I uhmet at the Culture Pioneer
Awards last year, last Novemberin London, and and you've led,
of course, award-winning teamsin 60 seconds or less, without
(20:47):
conscious of time.
What distinguishes, in yourmind, an award-worthy HR
initiative from the rest?
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Don't focus on the what, don't focus on the how.
Focus more on the clarityaround the why, the impact and
the measures Show us why thisshould be an award-winning entry
.
What makes it different fromeverybody else?
And if it's the same aseverybody else, it's not
award-winning.
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
All right, you didn't need 60 seconds at all.
Very good, very good.
All right, then let's use theremaining time that we've got
today to talk a little bittongue-in-cheek about something
that, uh, I love and, uh, thisis an audio podcast, but, um,
your background suggests thatyou love it too.
That's sci-fi and adventure andfantasy.
(21:31):
You shared with me ahead of theinterview that you are a
self-professed sci-fi andfantasy nerd.
Nothing wrong with that me too.
Uh, you love marvel star warsdoctor, who I'd throw in there?
I'm a big fan of battlestargalactica and star trek and
things as well.
Are there any lessons that hrcan learn from these worlds of
imagination and storytelling?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I actually did a lightning talk at cipd where it
was about talking about the, thevalue and the lessons we can
get from heroes.
And again, whilst they might befantasy and imaginary, hr have
the potential to be heroes too.
And again it's about myconsultant is called HR Hero for
Hire and it was deliberately aplay on words not to sound
arrogant.
I don't believe myself to be aHR hero, but I do believe HR can
(22:13):
be heroic and HR should be ableto be brave, to be able to
stand up, to do the right thing,which isn't always easy, not to
be compliant or to be seen asextensions of management.
Doing the right thing is nevereasy.
It's always the right thing todo.
As you know, being brave alsomeans embracing technology,
which you know.
Having this fear of ai, havinga fear of using, you know,
software it's not going to helpyou go forward and present
(22:35):
yourself as a seriousprofessional and embracing
change, because that's the onething that's guaranteed.
You know, too many hrpractitioners are still stuck on
old models of hr.
There's new ways of thinking,new ways of doing things, and
they're going to keep onevolving.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So either get on board or get out of the way love
it and I think that's a greatplace to wrap up for today.
Other than, how can folksconnect with you, shakil?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
yeah, I'm on linkedin .
I'm on twitter, less sonowadays.
What experts it's called?
Uh, more on linkedin, uh,linkedin's, where I tend to do
most of my um posts.
I've written about 180 plusarticles, or, contrary to 180
plus articles, I'm alwaysposting on linkedin, so look out
for me.
There.
You'll find more of some ofthese crazy ideas that I'd like
to share with the world well,that just leaves me to say for
(23:18):
today shaquille butts you,absolute superstar.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Hr.
Royalty, can't believe I hadn'tenjoyed the show before.
I'm definitely going to chaseyou up and get you on again soon
.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Thank you very much for being my guest you're very
welcome, bill, and we'll stay intouch.
Take care, mate.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Bye-bye, thank you thanks for listening to the hr
chat show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
(23:53):
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Shaquille Butt, it's my absolute pleasure and honor
to welcome you to the HR ChatShow.
How are you doing today?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I'm very well.
Thank you, bill, and thepleasure is all mine.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you for having me.
So, as we like to do on thisshow, let's start by getting to
know you a little bit before weget into the hard-hitting stuff.
Let's start with your journey.
You began in finance and madethe transition to HR back in
2009, when you were about 10, Iguess.
What motivated that shift andhow has your finance background
(00:58):
helped shape your approach topeople management?
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It's a very good question, bill, and it's one I
never planned.
It wasn't a career journey ortransition that I ever planned.
It wasn't a midlife crisis thatI was going through.
It was purely by accident.
The organization was goingthrough a restructure.
I've been in finance for 20years, and we were searching for
a HR director, and I was askedcould I be the interim HR
director for three months?
(01:22):
And I thought three months was,you know okay, why not?
I was.
I was fairly comfortable andand if I'm being very honest,
not learning anymore quitestagnant, been doing the same
thing for a very long period oftime.
I'd gone through a number ofaudits and a number of finance.
You know software changes, youknow policy rewrites, teams so I
thought, yeah, this sounds like, uh, it could be interesting.
Um, did it for three months.
(01:44):
Three months became six, sixbecame nine, nine became
eighteen, and I started reallyenjoying it.
At the 18th month point, I wasasked to go back to university,
which I kicked and screamedabout at the time.
To go, and actually, you know,foreign.
To be the incumbent HR director.
I had to actually get qualified.
To be credible is what theorganization believed.
Best thing I ever did, though,because they actually taught me
(02:05):
what I already know about hrfrom finance.
I thought I knew what hr was.
My view, my understanding, wasvery transactional.
It was very limited.
Um.
It was very process driven,wasn't very strategic, it wasn't
very much thinking about whathr could be.
Going to university was greatbecause I was taught by
lecturers.
You know people like PerryTimms was my lecturer at the
(02:26):
time, which was fantastic.
As you know probably already,he's one of the leading thinkers
in this space.
So I was quite fortunate.
I was actually given a verydifferent kind of mindset at uni
.
It wasn't about taking what wasalready out there and running
with that, but actually thinkingwhat could be done differently.
So that's how I ended up in HR.
(02:51):
Um loved it ever since.
Not look back, although my wifehas on occasion said what about
going back to finance?
It is more secure, there ismore money there, but I'm much
happier where I am.
Um, in terms of the uh, the,the second part of your question
, what was it again?
Just remind me uh, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
So I was interested to know how has your finance
background shaped your approachto people management?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
being in finance, it is always around looking at the
numbers and the metrics and data.
And when I moved into the hrspace I realized the team I
entered doing what wasn't prettymuch standard for the industry,
you know wasn't doing anythingparticularly great, for the
organization had a very badreputation, well regarded, and
it was because we weren'tactually thinking about how we
aligned with the organisationalstrategy.
(03:31):
What was the organisationtrying to do?
How would we be measuring that?
How could we evidence thebudget that we were asking for?
Very often, when I was on theother side of the table in
finance, if a function anyfunction, not just HR would come
in front of me and not be ableto justify what they're doing,
what difference it would make,how the organization would
benefit from their activities,then I'd be cutting their
(03:51):
budgets left, right and center.
So I do think that's helped mewith my role within HR to
actually think morestrategically, to think about
impact, and I'll come back tothat perhaps later on.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
So that's really interesting because we we
interview a lot of CHROs on thisshow and it seems like
increasingly, data leadseverything that senior HR
leadership is doing.
Lots of reasons why positive.
There are some negatives withthat as well.
In my opinion.
Push, push back that I sometimeshear when I'm attending events
such as CIPD or SHERM or HR techand others is you've still got
(04:33):
to.
You've still got to recognizethat people are people, we're
human beings.
We've got to be able tocommunicate and mentor each
other and support each other.
And if, if it's someone who'scoming from a data or finance
background and they go straightinto a CHRO role when they're
more interested in that coldhard data, maybe that's being
lost a little bit.
What you just said there amoment ago about how you went
(04:55):
back to university and that gaveyou a new appreciation of that
humanistic aspect from peoplelike our friend Perry Timms,
Would you recommend that forothers?
So for others coming into thatkind of a role, who are very
money and data focused becausethat's their background, is it
very much worth them taking astep back and saying you know
(05:15):
what?
I need a bigger picture here.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
No, absolutely so.
I'll share this with you, bill.
When I was in finance, I wastrained to believe we were the
most important function, and toan extent, that's partially true
, because we see all the moneycoming in, we see all the money
going out.
We know things that a lot ofthe other perhaps parts of the
organisation, won't appreciate.
However, it's only one slice orone lens to look through, and
(05:38):
when I moved into the HR space,I actually realised every single
decision I'd ever made as afinance person had a people
implication.
And if you're not thinking aboutboth, then you're not really
acting strategically, you'reacting very short term and most
and again it took me time tounderstand and realize this most
CEOs, most senior leaders comein.
They give, they give them athree-year term, a five-year
term.
They want to show impact, theywant to show results, so they
(06:00):
turn to the you know, thefinance person.
I cut costs, how can I raiserevenue?
And it's more than just that.
And if you're only thinkingshort-term, you're not being
strategic.
And if that's the mandate we'regiving our leaders, then of
course they're going to actshort-term.
But actually to be strategic,you need to be thinking about
the people implications ofpeople.
Ultimately, who would supportyou?
Not the numbers.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at HRGazettecom.
And now back to the show.
You have, of course, beenrepeatedly recognized as one of
(06:43):
the UK's HR most influential.
In your view, Shaquille, whatmakes HR leadership influential
in today's business world?
Is it influential in today'sbusiness world?
Are HR leaders actually gettinga seat at the top, being
listened to?
Give us your take.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
I think we're still struggling.
If I'm being honest, the theadvantage I had as a finance
professional was that my voicewas a given in the boardroom,
and that was perhaps the biggestculture shock to me when I
shifted to HR.
It wasn't automatic, it wasn'ta given.
I wasn't the person that gotreferred to straight away but to
make my case, I said you knowagain, I don't know.
You know, I know and understandwhy HR professionals don't like
(07:26):
data.
Because we don't.
We didn't come into the spaceto deal with numbers, came to
the space to do with people andculture, but without the numbers
.
Unless you, unless you marrythe two and become more
comfortable with the numbers,you're just saying I think I,
you know, I think this is a goodidea.
You know, fresh fruit onFridays, I mean, mean some of
those things I used to comeacross.
I'll be like but why, what?
(07:47):
Why fresh fruit?
Why?
Why Fridays?
You know what?
What?
Well-being Wednesdays?
But what's the problem?
What is the problem you'retrying to fix?
And if you're not answeringthat question, what's the
opportunity that you're tryingto take advantage of?
What's the problem you'retrying to resolve?
If you haven't got the answerto those two questions, you've
got nothing.
So if it is around sicknessabsence, then what are the
problem you're trying to resolve?
If you haven't got the answerto those two questions, you've
got nothing.
So if it is around sicknessabsence, then what are the rates
of sickness absence?
(08:08):
What does that cost thebusiness in real terms?
What is the lost opportunity?
What does that cost theorganization?
Those are your business casearguments for actually then
saying this is why we need toinvest in X, y or Z, whatever
that issue is.
But unless you can show whyyou're asking for investment,
(08:30):
unless you're showing why you'readding value and why the senior
leader should listen to you,you are going to be sat in the
room.
You know, as the, as the poorcousin to finance, and we have
an advantage.
Finance we do, unfortunately,but I think it's shifting.
So finance has a.
You know, there, as you know,there's a statutory requirement
to have you know, um, you know aset of accounts which are
compliant with accountingstandards.
We don't have that for a.
You know for, uh, you know hrprofessionals, but it is
(08:51):
shifting.
We are seeing you know again,um, you know, with the
introduction of the gender paygap and other potential pay gaps
coming on board, um, we aregetting more and more visibility
because of, you know, legalrequirements.
I'm not sure saying that it's ashame that we have to rely on
legislation to make us moreimportant in the in the
workplace.
But there is that shift andit's happening and we can either
(09:13):
get on.
You know, I used to argue with.
You know, not argue, sorry,it's the wrong word.
I used to say to Peter Cheesewhen I was on the board of the
CIPD look, if HR professionalsdon't get on board with numbers,
then once the finance, financeprofessionals realise what is
required, you know, from astatutory perspective, they'll
take ownership and we'llactually get squeezed even
further.
They'll look after the genderpay gap, they'll look after the
number part of our role.
(09:35):
We should be very clear aboutwho our people are, how many
people we have, what are theiradded values, what are the
demographics and how that allplays into the data that we then
need to use to make businesscase arguments in front of other
senior leaders.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes
things up, it makes you thinkdifferently and it leaves you
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That event is Disrupt HR.
The format is 14 speakers, 5minutes each and slides rotate
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(10:13):
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Speaker 2 (10:26):
Okay, very good, thank you very much.
And for our audience outside ofthe UK, peter Chees is the CEO
of the CIPD, which is thebiggest association for HR and
L&D professionals in the UnitedKingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland.
Okay, let's continue throughShaquille.
Much of your consultancy worktoday focuses on organisational
(10:47):
culture, of course, but what doyou believe are the essential
ingredients for creating ahealthy and inclusive workplace
culture?
There are so many dimensions tothis.
I'm just going to throw acouple of extra ones at you.
In the last few years, lots ofpeople have gone hybrid or
remote, and that addscomplicating factors to it.
Give us your take.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I think culture is an interesting issue because I
think there was a.
We have come a long way interms of as a HR profession.
We used to talk about humanresources.
We now talk about people andculture, and that's where the
conversation needs to be.
So that's a positive thing, butthe reality is, as you know,
bill, if you don't look afterculture, it will happen by
default.
You'll have a culture, whetheryou take ownership of it or not.
(11:27):
So it makes sense to actuallyhave cultures which are designed
and are actually intentional,and that's where the leadership
role comes in.
Culture is exactly what youallow to happen in the absence
of any real thought.
So if leadership actually takeownership of culture and it's
not about writing more policies,it's actually about what people
see happening in the workplaceand again, this, you know, this
(11:49):
thing with leadership is often,you know, leaders get focused on
the tasks and activities ratherthan thinking about what kind
of, what kind of organization dowe want to be?
What do we really aspire to be?
What really is our vision?
What is our?
What are our values?
And once you start focusingaround values and again, when my
dissertation was actually onvalues, when I did my masters um
(12:10):
it was becoming very clear tome that actually there's always
different values going on inorganizations.
There's the values that theyascribe, that they claim to
aspire to.
There's the values that getactually get translated in
practice.
There's the values that theorganization's staff hope and
wish and dream that theorganization would aspire to,
and the actual values aresomewhere in between.
So taking ownership of thevalues will help to create the
(12:32):
culture that you want toactually, you know, be known for
as an organization, and thatsometimes doesn't mean chasing
money, you know, chasing revenueor, you know, following
industry and trends it'sactually doing sometimes, you
know doing the right thing, andthat's always the hardest thing
(12:59):
to do.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
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exclusive deals and discountsto help your people stretch
their salaries to effectivereward and recognition programs
and a comprehensive health andwell-being offering.
We pride ourselves on ourfriendly and collaborative way
of working, putting the interestof our clients at the heart of
everything.
(13:20):
We do learn more at my staffshopcom, thanks, and now back to
the HR chat show.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
You were involved, of course, in designing the CIPD
level two certificate in EDI or,for our North American
listeners, dei, not quite thesame thing.
Often people in the UK thinkthe E stands for equality
instead of equity, whereas it'scertainly equity in the US,
although that's seen a bigpushback recently.
Anyway, you were involved indesigning that certificate and
(13:49):
have contributed to the CIPD'sEDI program.
Where do most organizations getEDI wrong, shaquille, and how
can the course correct?
Speaker 3 (13:59):
okay.
So it's interesting.
You mentioned EDI as being Ebeing equity in US and equality
in the UK.
I actually think it should beequity, and my new forthcoming
book is actually talking aboutequity rather than equality.
We do have a hang-up around theterm equality, and that's from
the equality at 2010.
So a lot of organisations talkabout equality, but actually
(14:19):
equity is far more greater as aconcept, because it's about
fairness.
It's about treating everybodylike people rather than treating
everybody the same, uh, whichis what you know, um, as if
everybody can be treated thesame, because that's not the
case.
We're all individual humanbeings.
We all have different needs, weall have different challenges
and weaknesses and you know, andthings and obstacles that we
have to overcome.
But in terms of the um, the edispace, I think where we go
(14:41):
wrong and uh, there's a quite afew chapters in my book about
this is actually doing what Icall performative EDI, so doing
the things that are known to bein this space.
So, for example, you're doingmentoring great.
You're doing a parade fantastic.
You've got a bus kitted out tobe on a celebration day.
You're recognizing nationalevents and national weeks
(15:03):
fantastic, so what?
You've got an employee resourcegroup, so what?
It doesn't answer the questionwhy?
Why are you doing that?
What's the problem?
Again, you're trying to solveand often organizations will do
what they see otherorganizations doing and they
will say we've got an employeeresource group, that's great.
My question is okay, howimpactful are they?
Do they have a voice?
Are they just a moan and groansession?
(15:24):
Do they just talk to each otherand complain about the same
things until they become cynical, deflated and actually become
part of the problem?
Do we see them?
As you know, now we have anemployee resource group.
They can advise us on theissues in the organisation.
No, they can't.
Actually, they can help, butthey're not the solution.
They're suffering from thethings that the organisation has
(15:50):
know whether it'sdiscrimination, racism, you know
homophobia, whatever the issueis.
They're suffering from that andyou're asking the people who
are suffering to fix the problemthat they never created.
They can be part of thesolution, but they're not the
solution.
And very often these individualedi initiatives, they stand
alone.
They're not connected, they'renot, they're not strategic.
You know they, they might run.
You know my EDI project mightrun in three months and then
that's it, or it's on thestrength of the EDI lead.
You have a charismatic EDI leadin the role.
(16:11):
All things are going greatuntil that person leaves and
then everything collapses.
Edi has to be or DEI, to use theAmerican term has to be
something which is morestrategic, has to be thought
about long term, has to be ownedby the leadership team and it
comes back down to and I thinkthere's a real shift.
I know across the in the Statesthere's that shift.
Edi hasn't really gone away orDEI hasn't gone away really.
(16:35):
It's actually taking back thatwider ownership of culture.
How do you want our people tofeel in the organization?
That's everyone.
There's a reason why some partsof organizations have felt
alienated because the focus hasbeen on X or Y or Z.
There's been a complianceapproach to EDI, enforcing
pronouns on people.
Not everybody wants to have apronoun pronounced on them If it
(16:58):
is about horses for courses,treat people like individuals,
allow them to be the bestversions of themselves, and
that's for everyone, not justyou know pockets of parts of the
organization or what istrending and what is right now
you know in the news andcapturing headlines.
That's where I think we've gonewrong with edi interesting.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
I would like to take you to issue on that, but I do
not have enough time becausethere's so many other things I
want to get through with you, soI'm just going to get you back
on the show to explore that abit more.
Um, you've got a book which Ibelieve is currently available
online and it soon will be inthe shelves as well, and it's
called edi experience.
(17:37):
Uh, what can readers expectfrom it and what gaps do you
hope it fills, beyond whatyou've shared so far in the
current diversity and inclusionliterature?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
I wrote the book with the intent to write it for
professionals coming into thisspace.
That was the original scopethat was given to me back in
October and obviously there'sbeen a lot of things that have
happened since October.
And I think that's even morerelevant now than before because
, even though you might arguethis is the wrong time to write
and release a book on EDI, whenthis needs to be a push away
from it, because I recognize thefact that actually the the
(18:09):
activities or the work thatneeds to be done still is now
going to have to be owned bysomebody in organizations when
they're trying to design theircultures.
So I wrote the book with myselfin mind, trying to think about
what would, what would I need tohave known five years ago when
I, before I, came to this space,what would have helped me?
And I recognized actually therewas a lot I didn't know and
there's a lot that actually alot of hr practitioners wouldn't
(18:32):
know.
A lot of edi leads I meetactually don't know so often I
will meet edi leads who arewell-intentioned, very
passionate about a particularstrand of diversity.
They might be from that strandof diversity in the South, they
might be black, they might beAsian, they might be female,
might be gay, and they willpromote a particular and again
they'll have their own biases,obviously because they are from
(18:53):
that particular diverse groupthemselves, and they will
promote a certain level ofthinking in the organization and
ideas in the organization andnot realize actually alienating
others as they as they do so, um, but they actually haven't
understood what edi reallyinvolves and all they're doing
really is they've been given aplatform, they're given an
opportunity and they'll doexactly all those same edi
(19:14):
initiatives that I've seenorganizations do, but they're
not thinking about impact,they're not very clear about why
they're not actually, you know,making a business case argument
for why they are needed in theorganization.
What's going on?
You know I I'd want to designthe metrics.
You know, where do we have aproblem with attraction?
Is there a problem withretention?
Is there a problem withpromotion?
You know I don't want to lookacross that employee life cycle
(19:37):
to understand what's going wrong.
And where are there high numberof cases of employee relation
cases, disciplinaries orgrievances taking place?
Are we, do we have any datafrom exit interviews?
What's the actual problem we'retrying to solve?
If you're not answering thatquestion, then actually all
you're doing is performative,edi.
You're going to get critiqueand you're going to get, you
know, feel disinvalued.
(19:57):
And it's not that people aren'tbuying into the concept of
fairness and equity, it's justthat you haven't been the best
champion and advocate for thething that you're meant to be
championing and advocating for.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
I really feel like there are a lot of people who
haven't bought into the conceptof equity If it's talking about
levelling up almost I've heardthis term before reverse
discrimination when it comes toequity.
Now, these are not views that Ishare.
I just think that, um, it's apolemic term and, again, I would
love to get you back on theshow and talk to you more about
this in the future.
(20:27):
But we've only got a couple ofminutes before we've got to wrap
up and there are a couple ofthings that I would uh just to
quickly talk to you about,shaquille, as someone who's
judged very prestigious hrawards.
So, for example, you and I uhmet at the Culture Pioneer
Awards last year, last Novemberin London, and and you've led,
of course, award-winning teamsin 60 seconds or less, without
(20:47):
conscious of time.
What distinguishes, in yourmind, an award-worthy HR
initiative from the rest?
Speaker 3 (20:54):
Don't focus on the what, don't focus on the how.
Focus more on the clarityaround the why, the impact and
the measures Show us why thisshould be an award-winning entry
.
What makes it different fromeverybody else?
And if it's the same aseverybody else, it's not
award-winning.
It's that simple.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
All right, you didn't need 60 seconds at all.
Very good, very good.
All right, then let's use theremaining time that we've got
today to talk a little bittongue-in-cheek about something
that, uh, I love and, uh, thisis an audio podcast, but, um,
your background suggests thatyou love it too.
That's sci-fi and adventure andfantasy.
(21:31):
You shared with me ahead of theinterview that you are a
self-professed sci-fi andfantasy nerd.
Nothing wrong with that me too.
Uh, you love marvel star warsdoctor, who I'd throw in there?
I'm a big fan of battlestargalactica and star trek and
things as well.
Are there any lessons that hrcan learn from these worlds of
imagination and storytelling?
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I actually did a lightning talk at cipd where it
was about talking about the, thevalue and the lessons we can
get from heroes.
And again, whilst they might befantasy and imaginary, hr have
the potential to be heroes too.
And again it's about myconsultant is called HR Hero for
Hire and it was deliberately aplay on words not to sound
arrogant.
I don't believe myself to be aHR hero, but I do believe HR can
(22:13):
be heroic and HR should be ableto be brave, to be able to
stand up, to do the right thing,which isn't always easy, not to
be compliant or to be seen asextensions of management.
Doing the right thing is nevereasy.
It's always the right thing todo.
As you know, being brave alsomeans embracing technology,
which you know.
Having this fear of ai, havinga fear of using, you know,
software it's not going to helpyou go forward and present
(22:35):
yourself as a seriousprofessional and embracing
change, because that's the onething that's guaranteed.
You know, too many hrpractitioners are still stuck on
old models of hr.
There's new ways of thinking,new ways of doing things, and
they're going to keep onevolving.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
So either get on board or get out of the way love
it and I think that's a greatplace to wrap up for today.
Other than, how can folksconnect with you, shakil?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
yeah, I'm on linkedin .
I'm on twitter, less sonowadays.
What experts it's called?
Uh, more on linkedin, uh,linkedin's, where I tend to do
most of my um posts.
I've written about 180 plusarticles, or, contrary to 180
plus articles, I'm alwaysposting on linkedin, so look out
for me.
There.
You'll find more of some ofthese crazy ideas that I'd like
to share with the world well,that just leaves me to say for
(23:18):
today shaquille butts you,absolute superstar.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Hr.
Royalty, can't believe I hadn'tenjoyed the show before.
I'm definitely going to chaseyou up and get you on again soon
.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Thank you very much for being my guest you're very
welcome, bill, and we'll stay intouch.
Take care, mate.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Bye-bye, thank you thanks for listening to the hr
chat show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
(23:53):
hrgazettecom.
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The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.
The Charlie Kirk Show
Charlie is America's hardest working grassroots activist who has your inside scoop on the biggest news of the day and what's really going on behind the headlines. The founder of Turning Point USA and one of social media's most engaged personalities, Charlie is on the front lines of America’s culture war, mobilizing hundreds of thousands of students on over 3,500 college and high school campuses across the country, bringing you your daily dose of clarity in a sea of chaos all from his signature no-holds-barred, unapologetically conservative, freedom-loving point of view. You can also watch Charlie Kirk on Salem News Channel