August 25, 2025 • 28 mins
Kim Chaumillon believes HR leaders must champion AI adoption from the inside out. "HR goes first" isn't just her mantra—it's the foundation of effective organizational transformation. Drawing from 30 years of global HR experience, Kim reveals how she's reimagining traditional people practices through AI implementation at two different organizations where she serves as fractional Chief People Officer.
Kim's conversation with hosts Pauline James and David Creelman explores practical strategies for building AI fluency within HR teams, starting with curated use cases and ongoing experimentation. Kim distinguishes between leveraging existing solutions with embedded AI capabilities and developing bespoke applications—highlighting three key opportunities for custom solutions: automating repetitive tasks, creating disruptive capabilities, and developing "chief of staff" functionality that transforms how work gets managed.
What makes Kim's approach particularly effective is her focus on enablement rather than restriction. While addressing important governance and ethical considerations, she frames AI guidelines in terms of possibilities rather than limitations. This positive orientation accelerates adoption and fosters innovation while maintaining appropriate boundaries around confidential information and potential biases.
The discussion provides a compelling vision of AI as HR's historic opportunity. Just as finance led during the 2008 financial crisis and HR guided organizations through COVID-19, AI transformation offers HR leaders the chance to drive tremendous business value while fundamentally reimagining work. For those who have long sought "a seat at the table," AI implementation provides the perfect blend of business impact and people-centered innovation—so significant that Kim delayed her retirement to participate in this transformative period.
Ready to take your HR function from reactive to proactive? Connect with Kim on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about leading your organization's AI transformation journey.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the HR Chat Podcast.
I'm Pauline James, founder andCEO of Anchor HR and associate
editor of the HR Gazette.
It's my pleasure to be yourhost.
Along with David Krillman, CEOof Krillman Research, we're
partnering with the HR ChatPodcast on a series to help HR
professionals and leadersnavigate AI's impact on
organizations, jobs and people.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
In this episode we speak with Kim Chaumillon, a
seasoned HR executive andforward-thinking fractional
chief people officer.
Kim brings over 30 years ofglobal HR experience, with a
passion for reinventingtraditional people practices to
support growth, adaptability andperformance in fast-changing
environments.
Kim shares her proactive,hands-on approach to embedding
(01:11):
AI in HR from championing HRgoes first to curating practical
use cases, to experimentingwith agentic AI and even
vibe-coding custom solutions.
We explore how she's enablingher teams to develop AI fluency,
fostering smartcross-functional partnerships
and creating future-readygovernance frameworks.
Whether you're just starting toexplore AI in HR or you're
looking to deepen your impact,kim offers inspiring, actionable
(01:32):
insights on how HR can andshould lead the way.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Kim, we're so pleased to have this time with you to
hear your insights about how you, your team, your organization
are leveraging AI.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your background and your
current work?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Yes, first of all, thanks for having me here and
giving me the opportunity toshare my experience.
I have about 30 years of globalHR experience, mostly in tech
companies and in the latter halfof my career, in executive
leadership roles.
Honestly, I've spent the secondhalf of my career, I would say,
(02:12):
throwing out the old HRplaybook and rethinking how work
gets done in more complex,fast-changing environments.
I think I have some specialtyaround designing human-centered
systems that really supportorganizations' performance,
growth and adaptability.
I currently serve as afractional chief people officer
(02:33):
for two companies.
One is a smaller boutiqueprofessional services firm in
the innovation space and theother is a tech company startup
with cutting-edge hardware andsoftware solutions for the
connected device supply chain,particularly reverse logistics
part for mobile phones, and I'mjust really working to embed AI
(02:55):
into our people practices andtheir business practices so that
both the business and itspeople can thrive.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So what has been your strategy about getting AI into
HR, into what HR is doing?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, I have.
Anybody who's ever worked forme knows that I have a mantra,
which is HR goes first.
Whether it be rolling out a newperformance management system
or a new way of thinking aboutwork, I always believe that HR
goes first.
So that is the place where I'mstarting.
Is that, in order for HR to bethose who help guide the
(03:33):
organization and I do thinkthere is a pivotal role like
there's lots of places that AIcould sit in an organization,
but it really my point of viewis it should sit in HR to be
driving this.
But in order for us to drive it, we absolutely have to
understand it and use itourselves.
So that's the first place whereI've expected, required,
(03:57):
enabled, supported the HR teamto play with the tools since
they first started coming outand then, because it's moving so
fast, is continually trying tostay up with it.
And that's my first place thatI'm starting is our own adoption
of it.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, and just to dig a little bit deeper into HR
going first, what does IT saywhen you say actually AI is
something HR should be leading?
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I've always been fortunate to have a partner in
IT.
I look at it as a partnership.
I feel that HR has two teamsthat we can commiserate with
finance and IT, because we bothlive in the support world and we
both live in a resourceconstrained world and if we're
(04:48):
working together, I believe thatit's the three-legged stool of
people process and place thatthose three teams come together.
So I've really tried to bringthose people along to help them
be more strategic, but also in amanipulative isn't the right
word, but a self-interested waythat they're not working against
(05:11):
me.
So it's like, hey, this is anopportunity for you to really
add more value and in workingtogether we can find a way to
add more value to the business.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
So you said one of the first things you did is to
get the HR professionalsthemselves involved in using AI.
Can you tell me some of thespecifics about how you got that
happening?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Because I understand sometimes the first barrier to
something new, like I'mpersonally wired as an early
adopter and my number onestrength in StrengthsFinder is
learner.
I value learning all day, allalong, and I realize not
(05:55):
everyone's wired that way.
So I try to curate the mostimportant things and then share
what I'm doing with it and givepeople use cases.
So then, like, go, go, try to,instead of writing that policy
by hand, why don't you ask youknow when generative AI was
popular, why don't you try that?
(06:15):
Or hey, I think this needs tobe reworked.
Would you go prompt AI to askfor its opinion about what you
know?
Like?
So I try to give use cases andtry to point people to tools
because I'm leading edge interms of trying them out and I
know that that's I've heard alot with AI is the obstacle is
(06:37):
people.
Maybe they tried out ChatGPTtwo years ago and it gave some
weird response and they neverwent back.
Or they tried a couple promptsand it didn't work and they
didn't go back.
And yet this technology ismoving so fast that it works
better every week that you tryit.
So to try to encourage peopleto keep going back out at it.
(06:58):
That's the main thing.
And then back to your ITquestion, trying to be a little
disruptive, because what happensin organizations right now is
not a lot of systems areapproved for use within the
company, but I have agreed topay for people's memberships,
(07:18):
encourage them to use the toolswith the right guidelines and
guardrails Like it's fine to askit questions.
It's fine to ask it questions.
It's fine to ask it to help you.
Just don't put any confidentialinformation in there from the
company and you can use chat,gpt or I have most of my team on
Burson's Galileo was one of thefirst ones that we started
using.
That's HR specific.
(07:39):
In short, what I try to do iscurate and recommend use cases
and ask specifically for peopleto use it for certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Thank you.
I love those examples and howpractical they are to leverage
and also to encourage adoption.
Have there been tools thatyou've adopted within HR?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I would say we're on that curve of you know, the
first wave was generative AI,and we are now.
Most of my team is usinggenerative AI on a daily basis,
and using generative AI both forfirst drafting, for
brainstorming I need to writethis better, so revisioning but
(08:24):
also for brainstorming andsensemaking, like I'm trying to
figure out what to do next.
How should I be thinking aboutit?
So I think my team is largelyusing it for all of those use
cases.
We are now on to the agenticphase and trying to figure out
how we implement agentic AI.
I just had a team meetingyesterday in fact where we're
(08:46):
really trying to say, okay, weall should be using AI daily
from a generative HR capability,generative AI capability,
excuse me, we need to move toagentic.
And so I mapped out a decisiontree around where I think
agentic is going, which I canwalk you through how I'm
(09:06):
thinking about it.
One I think there's two piecesto the initial part of the tree
there's bespoke agenticsolutions and there's existing
solutions with AI embedded.
So, as we said, where are wegoing to implement agents?
If I look at that existingsolutions that have AI embedded
we either need to enable itwithin the current solutions
(09:28):
that we have, for example, inone of the organizations we use,
lattice, and Lattice has justrolled out some AI capability.
So we need to figure that out,implement it, structure it.
However, we need to and justturn it on and try it out.
There's other solutions.
We have an applicant trackingsystem that I will not mention
by name that is not really bestin class associated with this.
(09:52):
So what we are going to dobecause we believe that
recruiting is one of the keyplaces where agentic AI in HR is
going to be a force multiplier,and so we're looking to just
switch to the solution that isout there that delivers the best
embedded agentic AI solution.
(10:12):
So that's kind of for the worldof existing solutions and then
for bespoke solutions.
I see three key paths.
There is the work that we dothat is repetitive and low value
add that we could turn agenticand we can put an agent on
checking to see how manyemployees have completed their
(10:32):
compliance training and sendthem to reminders and pester
them.
The other place is disruptive.
What are the things that wecould add up our game in people
and culture if we had thiscapability?
Could we generate new?
Could we consume all of thedata around our people download
(10:54):
all their LinkedIn profiles, mapit to their jobs and really
scenario plan, organizationaldesign and workforce planning
growth, like something totallywould have been impossible for
us to do right now, sodisruptive.
And then the third one is what Icall the chief of staff
solution.
(11:15):
How do we and it's fairlygeneric, but some sort of custom
solution that manages all ofour time and the team's work
that we're doing and sits overtop of our Trello boards, our
task lists, our calendars, andis custom to how we want to
manage our work and helps usmanage the work?
Because my dream and I'm slowlybuilding it is I actually want
(11:39):
a micromanager for me personally.
If I think about the best useof AI for me, it is somebody
that I wake up every morninglike a chief of staff and
they're like Kim, your day is todo this, this and this.
These are the strategic things.
You need to time block thisDon't forget to follow up with
this Something that just managesus all so that the people,
(12:01):
leaders and me, as a leader ofthe team I'm not managing the
work, I'm just managing thepeople.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I love that and I love how you're embracing this
as enabling technology and howyou're going about lifting the
skill set of your team andconsidering the use cases.
You mentioned also at theoutset partnering with the
business, considering businessuse cases.
How has it been implementedthroughout the organization?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
It's interesting because I've got two different
organizations.
The professional services firmthat I've worked for for the
last couple of years.
I was their chief peopleofficer and then I've
transitioned just to afractional role.
They've changed scope and sizeand that made more sense for
them.
They have been at the cuttingedge of AI adoption and,
(12:49):
probably for a solid two yearsnow, had created their own
in-house model or in-houseinstance that allowed us to.
They taught it all of ourmethodology, they taught it our
tone and it was really a placethat you could leverage.
Sorry, they really rethought alot of their work and how they
(13:12):
could enable it through AI.
So I've seen that where it'scompletely embedded in that
business, it is business-led.
It is core to how they thinkabout being able to accelerate
the work that they do.
In the other organization, thetech organization that I'm in, I
would say it's been slower,partly because the company has
(13:34):
been on a rapid growth tearduring this key moment in the
last year and there just hasn'tbeen the headspace for people to
think about what it means.
We're experiencing a little bitof a lull.
The founder and CEO has alsopersonally discovered the value
(13:54):
of AI, so we're at the earlystages.
I'm sort of this leading edgecatalyst right now that's
pushing the organization toadopt AI, because I see for a
startup that this is going to bea massive solve.
For how do we scale the company?
(14:14):
Because we don't have to do somuch hiring, or we could be very
much more intentional in ourhiring to create scale and
profitability, quite frankly,for the company, so we could do
more with the same amount ofpeople or go faster with the
same amount of people.
That is really compelling toinvestors.
(14:37):
And so I've got two differentenvironments that I'm working in
One I'm the catalyst in and oneI'm just following the business
.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now you talked a little bit about the guidelines.
Do you have a governancecommittee or just generally, how
do you approach governance?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
In both organizations I am on the kind of AI
committee that would probably bea fancy word.
It's like me and the IT leaderworking in concert to define
guidelines and guardrails.
So in both organizations wehave stated policies associated
(15:16):
with what you can do, what youcan't do associated with them,
but also recommendations aroundhow we want people to think
about it, how we want people tothink about it.
When I came into the currentorganization, the tech
organization, they had morepolicy around it and it was more
like you shouldn't do this, youshouldn't do that.
(15:39):
We did an all hands meetingabout three weeks ago where I
had the CEO do similar to theShopify.
In any case, you know the CEOscome out and declare, oh,
Duolingo was the other one, sohe did a similar thing and with
that we produced a set ofguidelines which shared more
like here's how you would use it, Use it for first draft, Use it
for brainstorming, here's thegenerative AI.
So we've helped peopleunderstand when they might want
(16:03):
to use it and then, within thatcontext, what is okay and what
is not okay.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, and, by the way , that's very innovative,
because all I ever hear arepeople saying don't do this,
don't do that, don't do theother thing, be scared.
Not the best way to present animportant new technology.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, because it's understandable.
If anybody has any riskaversion, they might think, well
, why would I do this?
So, like, the previous policywas like you can't use anything
but the company approvedsolution and now we have.
You can use other solutions aslong as you're not using and
(16:44):
feeding company information intoit.
But if you're like, how shouldI think about planning my day?
It's fine to use chat GPT,there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
What about ethical guidelines or concerns?
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, we've actually had a number of employees who
have raised the concerns aroundthe environment.
And how are we thinking aboutthe environmental aspect of
compute time?
I think that is a factor itdoes.
The industry seems to be awareof it.
(17:21):
I don't honestly know how we'regoing to manage through that,
honestly know how we're going tomanage through that.
I do think about it when I askfor long prompts or I see it
going away and doing a ton ofwork.
I think about trees being cutdown somewhere or power lines
transmitting.
So there's that environmentalethics side of it, ethics side
(17:53):
of it.
And then there is the modelbias.
I do follow OpenAI and SamAltman and some of the key
leaders in this and they seem tobe deeply sensitive to the
risks associated with it, andone of the things that we
include in our guidelines foremployees is like there was a
period of time with the releaseof open, with 4.0 mini, and that
(18:13):
it was very obsequious and itsometimes the ai are, the models
are driven towards peoplepleasing and that can reinforce
existing biases, and so I thinkthe skill to teach people is to
(18:34):
ask the AI to adopt a differentperspective or to critique what
you're thinking so that we don'treinforce existing biases.
Don't reinforce existing biases.
So I think there's going to besome user requirement to
mitigate the bias and also justsome sort of, especially by
using it as a thought partnerand to critique our work.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Often we're not as evidence-based when we endeavor
our human skills and ability toinfluence and assess situations.
We're not always beingevidence-based, but that human
touch is so important and we canactually leverage AI in that
way as a coach to support us?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, I do wonder.
You know there's some wonderfultools out there.
For example, zoom in their AItranscripting has a meeting
coach built into Zoom.
Don't know if you've everplayed with that, but as the
meeting host, it will tell youhow many times you ummed and
ahed.
It'll give you a score, it willtell you how much you dominated
(19:51):
the conversation and you caneven ask it how could I have run
a better meeting?
And it will give you feedback.
I'm always really interested inhow we unlock a culture of
feedback in organizations,because that is the bane of HR,
of people, of how do we improveperformance.
We know that we improveperformance with feedback.
(20:12):
Feedback is really rough togive for all the reasons that we
know.
Feedback is really hard to askfor and all of a sudden, we have
this tool that you can ask forfeedback, and I know for myself
I'm much more open to thefeedback that AI is going to
give me around my ideas, becauseit's super safe and it's a
great place to say how could Ido better, how could I write
(20:35):
this better, what's flawed in mythinking, and that's the place
where I really encourage peopleto play with it, because it's
pretty good, honestly.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Thank you.
With you sharing the use casesand how you've been approaching
it with this organization,there's been lots of advice
embedded in what you've relayedto us.
Is there other specific advicethat you would share with our
audience, with HR leaders, Ithink?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
what's great about this is, you know, during COVID.
Let me back up.
Let me restate this I think theopportunity here is for HR to
lead in a place that is creative.
I recall during COVID theexpression was during the
(21:26):
financial crisis of 2008,finance was the organization
that really mattered In COVID itwas HR.
All the attention was on HR toget us through this safely, to
plan, return to work, and itfelt like it was all HR all the
time.
But in this crazy, reactive,unfun place, having lived
(21:50):
through that, this feels like aplace where HR can lead in a
thing that really, reallymatters for our organizations
and for our people.
So that's what I'm excited.
It's like HR has always wantedto have a seat at the table and
be seen as business driven andbusiness focused, and this seems
(22:11):
like this perfect blend ofreally really business, high
business value but significantimpact on people, with change
management, with understandingwork.
David and I have worked manyyears looking at how do we move
away from the jobs model, how dowe deconstruct work, and to me,
(22:32):
this creates this tremendoustool that requires us to really
understand the work, think abouthow the work gets done,
redesign the work so that we canbring AI into where it is.
So I guess my main advice islean into it and don't be afraid
of it.
It is the opportunity of alifetime in HR.
I was on the verge of retiringthis year and I've decided to
(22:56):
stay in the game just because Iwant to see this through.
I think it's going to betransformative.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think that's fantastic and it's very
encouraging to find someonewho's so proactive and positive
about it, and I think this willhave a big impact on our
listeners.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
This is probably not going to be everyone's jam, but
I'm vibe coding now, so I amtrying out this whole space of
vibe coding.
It is really, really impressive.
(23:37):
To start, for example, Iinitially played with Manus.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And, by the way, you may want to explain to people
what vibe coding is.
And, by the way, you may wantto explain to people what vibe
coding is yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So vibe coding is this idea that now we no longer
need software engineers to writesoftware to create software,
that we all now have the toolsavailable to us to write
software using normal humanlanguage.
Right, I don't need tounderstand code at all.
(24:08):
If I have an idea that I wouldlove software to do, I have the
ability to just start saying,hey, I'd like to create this
tool Now.
For example, the thing that I'mvibe coding right now, I really
want some sort of interviewguide generation tool and I've
not found anything that existsin this space that does quite
(24:32):
what I want it to do.
So I'm vibe coding, the thingI'm creating, bringing into
existence the thing that I'vealways looked for as a point
solution.
I've started in lovable, whichis the tool to.
You can start start there todesign the UI.
In literally 10 sentences Icould describe roughly what the
(24:52):
application is and it creates it.
It is mind blowing.
So then you say, oh, okay, nowI want to tweak it, I want to
make it a different color, andyou just say, change the color
to purple, and it changes itpurple.
And then I say move this buttonfrom here to there.
And it does it, and so it'slike having a software engineer
working for me, but I don't.
I'm just doing it in my sparetime.
(25:14):
Now I've moved on to I'vereached the limits of that, so
now I have using cursor, whichis what software organizations
are using for their softwareengineers.
So now I'm getting intoindustry strength stuff teeny
bit of a learning curve but I'mconfident that give me another
(25:36):
week or two I was hoping to bethere.
By this call I will have builtthe application that I want, and
I might be 40 hours of my timein over a three, four month
period, just working a couplehours here and there on the
weekends learning and pushing italong, and so in 40 hours of my
(25:56):
time I could have anapplication that does exactly
what I want.
For's pretty cool, and part ofme wonders if this gets good
enough, if I will buy HRsoftware in the future.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I'm really grateful for your insights, Kim.
It's been a really helpful andinspiring conversation.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I just really appreciate the call-outs to
around HR's central role in this, whether or not we're
comfortable with tech, when youthink about change management,
enabling organizations all theroles we have to play in that
regard, and, in addition, thistech makes it easier for us to
be technologically savvyregardless.
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for being here.
I love to share all of thisinformation with HR.
I am passionate about our role.
I would add resources to learnmore that I've found very useful
.
So, in the spirit of curating,obviously, josh Burson's podcast
is excellent.
(27:04):
Josh Burson is saying all ofthese things to HR.
He is making a very, verycompelling case for us to play a
leadership role.
Another great podcast is the AIDaily Brief and it's a
20-minute-a-day.
It brings you up to speed onhow organizations are
implementing AI.
(27:25):
Organizations are implementingAI, agentic AI, what's going on
in the news for AI.
Those are two really powerfulresources to learn more.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Thank you.
This has been a shortconversation.
If listeners would like tolearn more to connect, what's
the best way for them to do so?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
The best way to connect with me would be connect
with me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Find me on LinkedIn and connect there episodes
published by HR Gazette andremember for what's new in the
world of work.
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello and welcome to the HR Chat Podcast.
I'm Pauline James, founder andCEO of Anchor HR and associate
editor of the HR Gazette.
It's my pleasure to be yourhost.
Along with David Krillman, CEOof Krillman Research, we're
partnering with the HR ChatPodcast on a series to help HR
professionals and leadersnavigate AI's impact on
organizations, jobs and people.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
In this episode we speak with Kim Chaumillon, a
seasoned HR executive andforward-thinking fractional
chief people officer.
Kim brings over 30 years ofglobal HR experience, with a
passion for reinventingtraditional people practices to
support growth, adaptability andperformance in fast-changing
environments.
Kim shares her proactive,hands-on approach to embedding
(01:11):
AI in HR from championing HRgoes first to curating practical
use cases, to experimentingwith agentic AI and even
vibe-coding custom solutions.
We explore how she's enablingher teams to develop AI fluency,
fostering smartcross-functional partnerships
and creating future-readygovernance frameworks.
Whether you're just starting toexplore AI in HR or you're
looking to deepen your impact,kim offers inspiring, actionable
(01:32):
insights on how HR can andshould lead the way.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Kim, we're so pleased to have this time with you to
hear your insights about how you, your team, your organization
are leveraging AI.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your background and your
current work?
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Yes, first of all, thanks for having me here and
giving me the opportunity toshare my experience.
I have about 30 years of globalHR experience, mostly in tech
companies and in the latter halfof my career, in executive
leadership roles.
Honestly, I've spent the secondhalf of my career, I would say,
(02:12):
throwing out the old HRplaybook and rethinking how work
gets done in more complex,fast-changing environments.
I think I have some specialtyaround designing human-centered
systems that really supportorganizations' performance,
growth and adaptability.
I currently serve as afractional chief people officer
(02:33):
for two companies.
One is a smaller boutiqueprofessional services firm in
the innovation space and theother is a tech company startup
with cutting-edge hardware andsoftware solutions for the
connected device supply chain,particularly reverse logistics
part for mobile phones, and I'mjust really working to embed AI
(02:55):
into our people practices andtheir business practices so that
both the business and itspeople can thrive.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
So what has been your strategy about getting AI into
HR, into what HR is doing?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, I have.
Anybody who's ever worked forme knows that I have a mantra,
which is HR goes first.
Whether it be rolling out a newperformance management system
or a new way of thinking aboutwork, I always believe that HR
goes first.
So that is the place where I'mstarting.
Is that, in order for HR to bethose who help guide the
(03:33):
organization and I do thinkthere is a pivotal role like
there's lots of places that AIcould sit in an organization,
but it really my point of viewis it should sit in HR to be
driving this.
But in order for us to drive it, we absolutely have to
understand it and use itourselves.
So that's the first place whereI've expected, required,
(03:57):
enabled, supported the HR teamto play with the tools since
they first started coming outand then, because it's moving so
fast, is continually trying tostay up with it.
And that's my first place thatI'm starting is our own adoption
of it.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah, and just to dig a little bit deeper into HR
going first, what does IT saywhen you say actually AI is
something HR should be leading?
Speaker 4 (04:26):
I've always been fortunate to have a partner in
IT.
I look at it as a partnership.
I feel that HR has two teamsthat we can commiserate with
finance and IT, because we bothlive in the support world and we
both live in a resourceconstrained world and if we're
(04:48):
working together, I believe thatit's the three-legged stool of
people process and place thatthose three teams come together.
So I've really tried to bringthose people along to help them
be more strategic, but also in amanipulative isn't the right
word, but a self-interested waythat they're not working against
(05:11):
me.
So it's like, hey, this is anopportunity for you to really
add more value and in workingtogether we can find a way to
add more value to the business.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
So you said one of the first things you did is to
get the HR professionalsthemselves involved in using AI.
Can you tell me some of thespecifics about how you got that
happening?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Because I understand sometimes the first barrier to
something new, like I'mpersonally wired as an early
adopter and my number onestrength in StrengthsFinder is
learner.
I value learning all day, allalong, and I realize not
(05:55):
everyone's wired that way.
So I try to curate the mostimportant things and then share
what I'm doing with it and givepeople use cases.
So then, like, go, go, try to,instead of writing that policy
by hand, why don't you ask youknow when generative AI was
popular, why don't you try that?
(06:15):
Or hey, I think this needs tobe reworked.
Would you go prompt AI to askfor its opinion about what you
know?
Like?
So I try to give use cases andtry to point people to tools
because I'm leading edge interms of trying them out and I
know that that's I've heard alot with AI is the obstacle is
(06:37):
people.
Maybe they tried out ChatGPTtwo years ago and it gave some
weird response and they neverwent back.
Or they tried a couple promptsand it didn't work and they
didn't go back.
And yet this technology ismoving so fast that it works
better every week that you tryit.
So to try to encourage peopleto keep going back out at it.
(06:58):
That's the main thing.
And then back to your ITquestion, trying to be a little
disruptive, because what happensin organizations right now is
not a lot of systems areapproved for use within the
company, but I have agreed topay for people's memberships,
(07:18):
encourage them to use the toolswith the right guidelines and
guardrails Like it's fine to askit questions.
It's fine to ask it questions.
It's fine to ask it to help you.
Just don't put any confidentialinformation in there from the
company and you can use chat,gpt or I have most of my team on
Burson's Galileo was one of thefirst ones that we started
using.
That's HR specific.
(07:39):
In short, what I try to do iscurate and recommend use cases
and ask specifically for peopleto use it for certain tasks.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Thank you.
I love those examples and howpractical they are to leverage
and also to encourage adoption.
Have there been tools thatyou've adopted within HR?
Speaker 4 (08:01):
I would say we're on that curve of you know, the
first wave was generative AI,and we are now.
Most of my team is usinggenerative AI on a daily basis,
and using generative AI both forfirst drafting, for
brainstorming I need to writethis better, so revisioning but
(08:24):
also for brainstorming andsensemaking, like I'm trying to
figure out what to do next.
How should I be thinking aboutit?
So I think my team is largelyusing it for all of those use
cases.
We are now on to the agenticphase and trying to figure out
how we implement agentic AI.
I just had a team meetingyesterday in fact where we're
(08:46):
really trying to say, okay, weall should be using AI daily
from a generative HR capability,generative AI capability,
excuse me, we need to move toagentic.
And so I mapped out a decisiontree around where I think
agentic is going, which I canwalk you through how I'm
(09:06):
thinking about it.
One I think there's two piecesto the initial part of the tree
there's bespoke agenticsolutions and there's existing
solutions with AI embedded.
So, as we said, where are wegoing to implement agents?
If I look at that existingsolutions that have AI embedded
we either need to enable itwithin the current solutions
(09:28):
that we have, for example, inone of the organizations we use,
lattice, and Lattice has justrolled out some AI capability.
So we need to figure that out,implement it, structure it.
However, we need to and justturn it on and try it out.
There's other solutions.
We have an applicant trackingsystem that I will not mention
by name that is not really bestin class associated with this.
(09:52):
So what we are going to dobecause we believe that
recruiting is one of the keyplaces where agentic AI in HR is
going to be a force multiplier,and so we're looking to just
switch to the solution that isout there that delivers the best
embedded agentic AI solution.
(10:12):
So that's kind of for the worldof existing solutions and then
for bespoke solutions.
I see three key paths.
There is the work that we dothat is repetitive and low value
add that we could turn agenticand we can put an agent on
checking to see how manyemployees have completed their
(10:32):
compliance training and sendthem to reminders and pester
them.
The other place is disruptive.
What are the things that wecould add up our game in people
and culture if we had thiscapability?
Could we generate new?
Could we consume all of thedata around our people download
(10:54):
all their LinkedIn profiles, mapit to their jobs and really
scenario plan, organizationaldesign and workforce planning
growth, like something totallywould have been impossible for
us to do right now, sodisruptive.
And then the third one is what Icall the chief of staff
solution.
(11:15):
How do we and it's fairlygeneric, but some sort of custom
solution that manages all ofour time and the team's work
that we're doing and sits overtop of our Trello boards, our
task lists, our calendars, andis custom to how we want to
manage our work and helps usmanage the work?
Because my dream and I'm slowlybuilding it is I actually want
(11:39):
a micromanager for me personally.
If I think about the best useof AI for me, it is somebody
that I wake up every morninglike a chief of staff and
they're like Kim, your day is todo this, this and this.
These are the strategic things.
You need to time block thisDon't forget to follow up with
this Something that just managesus all so that the people,
(12:01):
leaders and me, as a leader ofthe team I'm not managing the
work, I'm just managing thepeople.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
I love that and I love how you're embracing this
as enabling technology and howyou're going about lifting the
skill set of your team andconsidering the use cases.
You mentioned also at theoutset partnering with the
business, considering businessuse cases.
How has it been implementedthroughout the organization?
Speaker 4 (12:29):
It's interesting because I've got two different
organizations.
The professional services firmthat I've worked for for the
last couple of years.
I was their chief peopleofficer and then I've
transitioned just to afractional role.
They've changed scope and sizeand that made more sense for
them.
They have been at the cuttingedge of AI adoption and,
(12:49):
probably for a solid two yearsnow, had created their own
in-house model or in-houseinstance that allowed us to.
They taught it all of ourmethodology, they taught it our
tone and it was really a placethat you could leverage.
Sorry, they really rethought alot of their work and how they
(13:12):
could enable it through AI.
So I've seen that where it'scompletely embedded in that
business, it is business-led.
It is core to how they thinkabout being able to accelerate
the work that they do.
In the other organization, thetech organization that I'm in, I
would say it's been slower,partly because the company has
(13:34):
been on a rapid growth tearduring this key moment in the
last year and there just hasn'tbeen the headspace for people to
think about what it means.
We're experiencing a little bitof a lull.
The founder and CEO has alsopersonally discovered the value
(13:54):
of AI, so we're at the earlystages.
I'm sort of this leading edgecatalyst right now that's
pushing the organization toadopt AI, because I see for a
startup that this is going to bea massive solve.
For how do we scale the company?
(14:14):
Because we don't have to do somuch hiring, or we could be very
much more intentional in ourhiring to create scale and
profitability, quite frankly,for the company, so we could do
more with the same amount ofpeople or go faster with the
same amount of people.
That is really compelling toinvestors.
(14:37):
And so I've got two differentenvironments that I'm working in
One I'm the catalyst in and oneI'm just following the business
.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Now you talked a little bit about the guidelines.
Do you have a governancecommittee or just generally, how
do you approach governance?
Speaker 4 (14:54):
In both organizations I am on the kind of AI
committee that would probably bea fancy word.
It's like me and the IT leaderworking in concert to define
guidelines and guardrails.
So in both organizations wehave stated policies associated
(15:16):
with what you can do, what youcan't do associated with them,
but also recommendations aroundhow we want people to think
about it, how we want people tothink about it.
When I came into the currentorganization, the tech
organization, they had morepolicy around it and it was more
like you shouldn't do this, youshouldn't do that.
(15:39):
We did an all hands meetingabout three weeks ago where I
had the CEO do similar to theShopify.
In any case, you know the CEOscome out and declare, oh,
Duolingo was the other one, sohe did a similar thing and with
that we produced a set ofguidelines which shared more
like here's how you would use it, Use it for first draft, Use it
for brainstorming, here's thegenerative AI.
So we've helped peopleunderstand when they might want
(16:03):
to use it and then, within thatcontext, what is okay and what
is not okay.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Yeah, and, by the way , that's very innovative,
because all I ever hear arepeople saying don't do this,
don't do that, don't do theother thing, be scared.
Not the best way to present animportant new technology.
Speaker 4 (16:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, because it's understandable.
If anybody has any riskaversion, they might think, well
, why would I do this?
So, like, the previous policywas like you can't use anything
but the company approvedsolution and now we have.
You can use other solutions aslong as you're not using and
(16:44):
feeding company information intoit.
But if you're like, how shouldI think about planning my day?
It's fine to use chat GPT,there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
What about ethical guidelines or concerns?
Speaker 4 (16:59):
Yeah, we've actually had a number of employees who
have raised the concerns aroundthe environment.
And how are we thinking aboutthe environmental aspect of
compute time?
I think that is a factor itdoes.
The industry seems to be awareof it.
(17:21):
I don't honestly know how we'regoing to manage through that,
honestly know how we're going tomanage through that.
I do think about it when I askfor long prompts or I see it
going away and doing a ton ofwork.
I think about trees being cutdown somewhere or power lines
transmitting.
So there's that environmentalethics side of it, ethics side
(17:53):
of it.
And then there is the modelbias.
I do follow OpenAI and SamAltman and some of the key
leaders in this and they seem tobe deeply sensitive to the
risks associated with it, andone of the things that we
include in our guidelines foremployees is like there was a
period of time with the releaseof open, with 4.0 mini, and that
(18:13):
it was very obsequious and itsometimes the ai are, the models
are driven towards peoplepleasing and that can reinforce
existing biases, and so I thinkthe skill to teach people is to
(18:34):
ask the AI to adopt a differentperspective or to critique what
you're thinking so that we don'treinforce existing biases.
Don't reinforce existing biases.
So I think there's going to besome user requirement to
mitigate the bias and also justsome sort of, especially by
using it as a thought partnerand to critique our work.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Often we're not as evidence-based when we endeavor
our human skills and ability toinfluence and assess situations.
We're not always beingevidence-based, but that human
touch is so important and we canactually leverage AI in that
way as a coach to support us?
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Yeah, I do wonder.
You know there's some wonderfultools out there.
For example, zoom in their AItranscripting has a meeting
coach built into Zoom.
Don't know if you've everplayed with that, but as the
meeting host, it will tell youhow many times you ummed and
ahed.
It'll give you a score, it willtell you how much you dominated
(19:51):
the conversation and you caneven ask it how could I have run
a better meeting?
And it will give you feedback.
I'm always really interested inhow we unlock a culture of
feedback in organizations,because that is the bane of HR,
of people, of how do we improveperformance.
We know that we improveperformance with feedback.
(20:12):
Feedback is really rough togive for all the reasons that we
know.
Feedback is really hard to askfor and all of a sudden, we have
this tool that you can ask forfeedback, and I know for myself
I'm much more open to thefeedback that AI is going to
give me around my ideas, becauseit's super safe and it's a
great place to say how could Ido better, how could I write
(20:35):
this better, what's flawed in mythinking, and that's the place
where I really encourage peopleto play with it, because it's
pretty good, honestly.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Thank you.
With you sharing the use casesand how you've been approaching
it with this organization,there's been lots of advice
embedded in what you've relayedto us.
Is there other specific advicethat you would share with our
audience, with HR leaders, Ithink?
Speaker 4 (21:03):
what's great about this is, you know, during COVID.
Let me back up.
Let me restate this I think theopportunity here is for HR to
lead in a place that is creative.
I recall during COVID theexpression was during the
(21:26):
financial crisis of 2008,finance was the organization
that really mattered In COVID itwas HR.
All the attention was on HR toget us through this safely, to
plan, return to work, and itfelt like it was all HR all the
time.
But in this crazy, reactive,unfun place, having lived
(21:50):
through that, this feels like aplace where HR can lead in a
thing that really, reallymatters for our organizations
and for our people.
So that's what I'm excited.
It's like HR has always wantedto have a seat at the table and
be seen as business driven andbusiness focused, and this seems
(22:11):
like this perfect blend ofreally really business, high
business value but significantimpact on people, with change
management, with understandingwork.
David and I have worked manyyears looking at how do we move
away from the jobs model, how dowe deconstruct work, and to me,
(22:32):
this creates this tremendoustool that requires us to really
understand the work, think abouthow the work gets done,
redesign the work so that we canbring AI into where it is.
So I guess my main advice islean into it and don't be afraid
of it.
It is the opportunity of alifetime in HR.
I was on the verge of retiringthis year and I've decided to
(22:56):
stay in the game just because Iwant to see this through.
I think it's going to betransformative.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
I think that's fantastic and it's very
encouraging to find someonewho's so proactive and positive
about it, and I think this willhave a big impact on our
listeners.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
This is probably not going to be everyone's jam, but
I'm vibe coding now, so I amtrying out this whole space of
vibe coding.
It is really, really impressive.
(23:37):
To start, for example, Iinitially played with Manus.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And, by the way, you may want to explain to people
what vibe coding is.
And, by the way, you may wantto explain to people what vibe
coding is yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
So vibe coding is this idea that now we no longer
need software engineers to writesoftware to create software,
that we all now have the toolsavailable to us to write
software using normal humanlanguage.
Right, I don't need tounderstand code at all.
(24:08):
If I have an idea that I wouldlove software to do, I have the
ability to just start saying,hey, I'd like to create this
tool Now.
For example, the thing that I'mvibe coding right now, I really
want some sort of interviewguide generation tool and I've
not found anything that existsin this space that does quite
(24:32):
what I want it to do.
So I'm vibe coding, the thingI'm creating, bringing into
existence the thing that I'vealways looked for as a point
solution.
I've started in lovable, whichis the tool to.
You can start start there todesign the UI.
In literally 10 sentences Icould describe roughly what the
(24:52):
application is and it creates it.
It is mind blowing.
So then you say, oh, okay, nowI want to tweak it, I want to
make it a different color, andyou just say, change the color
to purple, and it changes itpurple.
And then I say move this buttonfrom here to there.
And it does it, and so it'slike having a software engineer
working for me, but I don't.
I'm just doing it in my sparetime.
(25:14):
Now I've moved on to I'vereached the limits of that, so
now I have using cursor, whichis what software organizations
are using for their softwareengineers.
So now I'm getting intoindustry strength stuff teeny
bit of a learning curve but I'mconfident that give me another
(25:36):
week or two I was hoping to bethere.
By this call I will have builtthe application that I want, and
I might be 40 hours of my timein over a three, four month
period, just working a couplehours here and there on the
weekends learning and pushing italong, and so in 40 hours of my
(25:56):
time I could have anapplication that does exactly
what I want.
For's pretty cool, and part ofme wonders if this gets good
enough, if I will buy HRsoftware in the future.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I'm really grateful for your insights, Kim.
It's been a really helpful andinspiring conversation.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
And.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
I just really appreciate the call-outs to
around HR's central role in this, whether or not we're
comfortable with tech, when youthink about change management,
enabling organizations all theroles we have to play in that
regard, and, in addition, thistech makes it easier for us to
be technologically savvyregardless.
So thank you.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Yeah, yeah, thanks for being here.
I love to share all of thisinformation with HR.
I am passionate about our role.
I would add resources to learnmore that I've found very useful
.
So, in the spirit of curating,obviously, josh Burson's podcast
is excellent.
(27:04):
Josh Burson is saying all ofthese things to HR.
He is making a very, verycompelling case for us to play a
leadership role.
Another great podcast is the AIDaily Brief and it's a
20-minute-a-day.
It brings you up to speed onhow organizations are
implementing AI.
(27:25):
Organizations are implementingAI, agentic AI, what's going on
in the news for AI.
Those are two really powerfulresources to learn more.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Thank you.
This has been a shortconversation.
If listeners would like tolearn more to connect, what's
the best way for them to do so?
Speaker 4 (27:42):
The best way to connect with me would be connect
with me on LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
Find me on LinkedIn and connect there episodes
published by HR Gazette andremember for what's new in the
world of work.
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
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