July 24, 2025 • 21 mins
Ever considered a career in scaffolding? Most haven't, but Paul Napper is on a mission to change that perception. As the Head of Training and Education at NASC (National Access and Scaffolding Confederation), Paul joins Bill Banham on the HRchat Show to reveal how this overlooked industry offers diverse career pathways and impressive earning potential.
"There are people I know earning £100,000 a year," Paul explains, highlighting how advanced scaffolders, especially those working in specialized sectors like offshore platforms, can achieve significant financial success. But perhaps more surprising is the range of career options beyond the physical construction work. The industry needs designers, contract managers, health and safety specialists, trainers, and entrepreneurs – creating opportunities for individuals with varied skills and interests.
The timing couldn't be better for exploring this field. With approximately 1,800 weekly vacancies in scaffolding across the UK, there's a genuine skills gap that needs filling. The NASC is actively working to bridge this gap through innovative approaches, including their "talent pack" with VR headsets that allow potential recruits to virtually experience scaffolding work, a talent portal connecting job seekers with employers, and partnerships with educational institutions to develop clear career pathways from entry-level positions through to university qualifications.
What sets scaffolding apart is its global relevance. The UK leads worldwide in scaffolding standards through technical guidance documents like TG20 and TG30. Countries including Australia, Malaysia, Jersey, and even the United States are now looking to adopt these standards, creating international opportunities for UK-trained scaffolding professionals. As major projects like the new Universal Studios theme park in the UK and worldwide construction continue to drive demand, scaffolding represents not just a job, but a career with genuine security and advancement potential.
Whether you're a school leaver, considering a career change, or simply curious about unexpected professional paths, Paul's insights reveal an industry that offers far more than meets the eye. Connect with him on LinkedIn or visit nasc.org.uk to explore how you might build a future in this dynamic field.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
And visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and
joining me on the show today ismy old colleague and friend,
someone that I recentlyreconnected with.
We worked together many, many,many years ago, paul Knapper.
Paul is the current head oftraining and education over at
(00:47):
NASC, the leading trade body inscaffolding and access in the UK
.
He's worked in training andeducation, lloyd's Maritime
Academy and conferences in othersectors.
He's also a trustee at HMSUnicorn and the Countryside
Regeneration Trust.
Paul, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Has it really been that long, bill?
I mean, it seems like onlyyesterday that we were chatting
around automotive logistics bitsand pieces.
But yeah, no, great toreconnect and talk about what
I'm up to now.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It has been a while.
I've aged a lot.
Obviously, you look exactly thesame as when we worked together
.
So, paul, paul, you've workedin training and education across
a range of sectors, frommaritime to property to to
scaffolding.
Now you and I also workedtogether in the publishing
sector many years ago.
As we've just established.
What drew you to thescaffolding and access industry
(01:40):
and what excites you most aboutyour role over at NASC?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So I guess the main thing for me really is about
opportunity.
It's something which,throughout my career, I've
always tried to encourage.
You know, more capacity, Iguess, in the various different
sectors.
You know, when I worked forLloyd's Maritime Academy, for
example's all about creatingkind of lifelong learning paths
(02:06):
within the maritime industry.
You know, encouraging peoplewho've been working on ships for
20, 30 years to actually lookat a career back on shore,
looking at training within that.
(02:27):
There was something about youknow kind of the scaffold
scaffolding sector that reallydrew me to how underappreciated
it was as a massively importantsector in the first place.
But secondly, I guess my kindof experience in in building
that opportunity and lifelonglearning and creating that, that
opportunity within scaffoldingis something which I think is is
hugely um vital for you know ukeconomy um in in in general,
(02:50):
but also within the constructionsector on a global level um,
but also more kind of um interms of, I guess, trying to
create a, you know, a viabletraining um, viable career path
for people, whether they'restraight out of college or
whether it's a second career,whether they've come out of a
disadvantaged background orwhatever.
(03:10):
So I see this as a hugeopportunity for me to develop
something which has appeal foracross the board and really put
something in place for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Okay, very good.
Thank you very much.
So let's face it, scaffoldingmight not be the first career
(03:46):
path that people think of, butthere's a heck of a lot of
opportunity in the field.
Uh, it seems like there's lotsof construction happening at the
moment all over the place.
What, what do you think needsto be done to shift public
perception and attract newtalent?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
so I think I think it's it's um, it's it's a tough
one.
I think the you know what I'mseeing is that there's a lot of
people that see it as lastresort, um, as something which,
oh, you know my data scaffolderI'm going to be a scaffolder now
but actually I think actuallyit's what I'm looking at now is
it's not just scaffolders.
You know that people, um, youknow, within the industry you've
(04:23):
got health and safety managers,you've got contract managers,
you've got entrepreneurs, you'vegot people working in different
areas of scaffolding actuallynot just stop at scaffolders,
but I think even those peoplethat do stop at scaffolding,
there's people I know earning100, 100 000 pound a year.
You know if you get onto, youknow um, an advanced card if
you're, you know if you haveyour own company.
(04:43):
Always there is things.
If you end up working in a veryspecific like the offshore
sector, you can earn some goodmoney.
And I think what's interestingis that there is so much
opportunity within the industry,not just the scaffolder, but
you know various other jobs, asI said, but also within things
(05:03):
like the universal studios themepark that's opening up.
You know there's jobs therethat that you know are opening
up for for the industry.
But also, what's amazing billis um I was talking about this
the other day um, at a momentthere's something like 1800
vacancies per week inscaffolding.
So there's the capacity therefor people to actually say you
know, there's jobs available andat the moment there's a crisis,
(05:26):
there's like a skills gap.
There's, there's companies thatneed scaffolders.
You know, we're trying toencourage people to say look,
there is a job here, there is acareer path here.
You know, and it's not just thedirty, you know, all weather
scaffold jobs that peoplethought of in the past.
There's other jobs that are,you know, on the past.
There's other jobs that are,you know, on the parallel to
that.
But at the same time, you canmake good money if you go into
(05:48):
it.
So it's creating that, I guess,opportunity and viability for
young people to explore it as acareer and as a fun, exciting,
possibly lucrative career aswell.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, let's delve into that a bit more, paul, if
you don't mind, specificallyaround ways that the NASC is
working with schools, withcolleges and with universities
to create clearer pathways intoscaffolding, and maybe you can
share what's workingparticularly well at the moment
and what are your ambitions forthe next 12 to 24 months.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So I've actually just recruited someone who's
starting next week, um who isgoing to be managing that whole
process for me.
What we have at the moment wehave a thing called a talent
pack, and this talent packessentially is a couple of
pop-up banners, some leaflets,but what's really exciting is
also a vr headset.
Now members of nasc,scaffolding contracting, members
(06:49):
of NASC, can hire one of thesetalent packs for free for two
weeks to take with them to aschool's or college careers fair
and showcase what it's like tobe a scaffolder with that VR
headset.
We've got all this equipmentthat we're lending out to our
(07:10):
members free of charge toactually promote Scaffolding as
a career to schools, colleges,further education, higher
education and my new team memberis going to be proactively
pushing that to members andschools and colleges as well.
But what we've also got, we'vealso got something called a
talent portal.
Now, that talent portalessentially is something that
(07:30):
we're marketing through ourvarious events that we do.
So we're, uh, we're at ukconstruction week in a few weeks
time.
Um, we've got our own event,scafex in september, which we're
going to have 3 000 peopleattend, um huge event that um
that we're running.
Um, keith lemon's going to bethere.
Um, sorry, if you rememberkeith the comedian, he's going
to be one of the hosts.
Um, you know, we're reallypromoting it as a career, but
(07:51):
the beauty about his talentportal is a website where people
can register their interest tobe a scaffolder, upload their
details.
Companies can do the same, theycan upload their vacancies and
we can join the two proactively.
We can say to a scaffoldcontractor look, we've got a
scaffolder in your region that'slooking for work.
(08:12):
You know, there you go and inthis case, of practically
managing that now with theschools and colleges.
You know we have a relationshipwith some good college
providers.
We're also talking to a companyat the moment that's been
looking at creating videos whichtie in with the national
curriculum, creating videoswhich tie in with the national
curriculum.
So they have to show.
(08:32):
They show these videos as partof the curriculum and I think
they're working with the RAF onone and we're talking with them
about doing potentially one onscaffolding which will then be
sent to hundreds of collegesaround the UK which they can
then use as part of theircurriculum to show people.
It's a viable career choice.
There is that kind of stuffgoing on.
(09:00):
There's also talk um, about, um, uh, the.
At a moment the career path isa um, a very standard um
scaffold card that gets you to,you know, to be on a scaffold
site.
Then you, then you do sixmonths, then you do a part one,
another six months to a part two.
But also we're now looking at alevel four apprenticeship.
So hnc, a level fiveapprenticeship, hnd, and then
university apprenticeship.
(09:20):
And talking to universities andgetting them to deliver
apprenticeship at universitylevel is really important for us
because it shows that actuallywe're not.
We're not limited to, you know,just school and college leavers
.
We're not limited to, you know,just school and college leavers
.
We're actually saying why notgo to university, why not look
at other things like contractmanagement, quantity surveying,
you know all the big techmanagement stuff.
(09:43):
You know why stop there.
So what I want to do isencourage lots and lots of
different schools and collegesand providers to actually look
at scaffolding, not as just alast resort or anything, but
actually we can work with you tocreate something that's
appealing for leaders to say,hey, this is something that,
that's that's.
You know, I can do.
You know, as long as you're youknow, and you know, as long as
(10:06):
you're enthusiastic, I guessbecause we we want people who
are like saying you know, thisis something that I can actually
make my mark in and I think,working with schools, colleges,
to actually see that in practicewhether it's VR headsets,
whether it's going topotentially go into a site see
it in action, maybe doing workexperience as well it's
something that you know.
(10:26):
My role essentially is to kindof like create that enthusiasm
opportunity but at the same time, say you know what?
I'm open to ideas.
Whatever it takes to build thatcapacity, whatever it takes to
fill those vacancies, whateverit takes to get school leavers,
university leavers, graduates,to say why not scaffolding and
(10:51):
design contract.
There's so many different jobswithin that and I think my part
of my job now is to open thatout to the population and say
you know, why not, why not you?
You know?
So the wider conversationaround schools and colleges is
making sure that we have thatdialogue on a national level.
Um, you know, talking to thegovernment, talking to, you know
, devolved authorities, localauthorities, making sure that
you know our members at nasc,who are audited as well as part
(11:13):
of our membership standards,making sure that those employers
that they employ are competentand trained to understand that
we need to be as well which is afantastic lead-in to my next
question.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Um around around standards, um.
So scaffolding and relatedareas, such as construction,
obviously they are heavily,heavily um regulated.
They need to be, you know.
They have massive health andsafety concerns.
If, if, if they weren't, ifthey weren't regulated and the
national access to scaffoldingconfederation is widely
recognized for setting safetyand technical standards in the
(11:49):
scaffolding industry, of coursewhy are these standards, paul,
so essential and how do theyimpact the day-to-day work of
member organizations?
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
So obviously we have the TG20 and the TG30, which are
the two main standards that wekind of set.
You know, tg30 is the newestone, which is all about system
scaffolding, but TG20 is thebasic kind of main one Now that
all relates to the erection, thebuild and dismantling of
(12:19):
scaffolding and dismantling ofscaffolding.
And what's interesting aboutthis essentially is that it's
one of those standards which isso ingrained now within the
scaffolding industry that ourmembers have access to it as
part of their membership.
But non-members can alsopurchase the guidance and
(12:41):
non-members purchase theguidance and can and non-members
purchased guidance and can usethat guidance in what we call an
e-portal.
And that e-portal allows themto put together a compliance,
electronic compliance sheet sothey can put out all their, all
their measurements ofscaffolding and it will draw up
a compliance sheet for them withan actual diagram, an actual
specify, the load bears, theload bearing, calculations,
(13:02):
everything.
So.
So non-members can pay for thatseparately but members have it
as part of their membership nowto be a member of nasc.
And bearing in mind, we have320 um scaffolding contractor
members which make up 80 percentof the uk scaffolding industry
by revenue, right?
So we're talking the bigcommercial scaffolding companies
.
Now they have to be auditedevery two years.
(13:23):
Those audits take place as adesktop audit but also as a site
visit.
Now part of that audit is theyobviously have to correspond to
all our guidance and standards.
But also 90 of our scaffoldershave to have the scissors card.
To get the scissors card youhave to have gone through a
process of training to be ascaffold and getting your card
processed.
Now we are so committed to thiswhole process of auditing that
(13:49):
we're looking at risk-basedauditing Instead of going
through this binary auditingprocess.
Now where compliant andnon-compliant, we're saying well
, you know, we should beauditing by.
You know the levels of risk andso on inherent in that member.
So we're now looking at adifferent way of auditing using
that.
But what's more important, Iguess, is that our standards are
so, I guess, stringent andwelcome and respected.
(14:14):
That actually now I'm going toJersey in a few weeks' time.
Talk to the government ofJersey about actually training
Jersey scaffolders in thestandards that we do scissors.
We're talking to australia.
Australia are now looking at um, uh, you know, using our
standard as their standard forscaffolding.
We're talking to americabecause america have no safety
(14:36):
standards in scaffolding allright.
They literally are no safetystandards.
So we're going out there totalk to them about safety
standards, about, you know, allthis kind of stuff.
We Northern Ireland, you knowthere's so many countries
Malaysia we spoke to Malaysia.
Malaysia want 20 trainingcenters Right Now.
This is something that Malaysiahave said to us.
(14:56):
You know we need this in placebecause we need to.
We've got so much constructiongoing on.
We need the proper standards,that that we are recognized for
nasc and to train those up weneed to put our own training
program in place.
So this is, this has thecapacity to be replicated around
the globe.
Essentially.
So there's a huge potential umfor not just nasc and
(15:20):
obviouslyissors and our membersand all that kind of stuff, but
also the UK as like aworld-leading standard, setting
the standards for constructionglobally, but also setting the
standards for scaffolding andreplicating that across
different countries to make surethat our scaffold is the best
in the world.
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Speaker 2 (16:21):
Very good, and you just covered two more questions
I had about theinternationalization of what you
guys are doing, so very good,and you just covered.
Uh, two more questions I hadabout the internationalization
of what you guys are doing, sovery good.
In that case, two morequestions for you before we,
before we wrap up.
Uh, today, uh, given everythingyou've said so far in one
minute or less, paul because Ilike to challenge my guests
sometimes uh, why shouldlisteners consider a a career in
?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
scaffolding.
I think the main thing reallyreally is like it's not just
scaffolding, you know, there'sscaffolding design, there's
contract management, there'shealth and safety management,
there's entrepreneurship.
Our president at the moment,for example, is not a scaffolder
but he built up a scaffoldingcompany from scratch and that
company is now worth bringing inmillions of pounds of revenue
(17:02):
because he recognized actuallyscaffolding is a really exciting
industry to be in and just bycreating that company and owning
that company he's, you know,brought in, he's employed lots
of people, he's brought inbusiness and I think essentially
it's scaffolding is one ofthose areas like, um, it is what
you make of it.
You know, if you want to be acontract manager, you want to be
helping safety, you want to bea trainer, want to be.
(17:23):
If you want to be a contractmanager, you want to be helping
safety, you want to be a trainer, want to be an instructor, you
want to be, you know, bringingpeople into the industry.
You can do it.
You can do whatever you want tobecause there are at the moment
it's almost like a startupscaffolding.
In my opinion.
It's like a startup in that youcan say you know what, I'm
going to create something andI'm going to change the way we
do it.
And although we have standardsin place, you know, quite strict
in terms of the technicalstandards and so on, the job
(17:45):
roles are so diverse, what youcan do, you know we're welcoming
different approaches todifferent things, you know.
But we're also looking atthings like, you know, proper
business management, contractmanagement, design, health and
safety.
You know procurement, sales.
You know it's just a differentsector, but the point is, it's
scaffolding itself.
The uk is, in my opinion, theleading country in terms of what
(18:08):
scaffolding looks like.
And I think if you're trainedin the scissors, you know
standard and you can work aroundthe world and you can.
You know you can do scaffoldingwherever you want to.
And, uh, you know, essentiallythere's lots of money to be made
as well, and I think that'sanother.
That's another thing as well.
(18:28):
You know you've got people, asI said before, working on the
offshore platforms, verycomplicated platforms, you know.
You know quite harsh conditionsat times.
But actually if you do it forfive, ten years, you've made
quite a bit of money and I thinkthen you can say, right, okay,
now I'm going to go intocontract management, now I'm
going to do scaffold design, youknow.
So it's it's.
(18:49):
Have I spoken more than aminute?
I don't know.
But anyway, the um, you know,the point I'm trying to make is
it's such an exciting sector toget involved in um and there's
so many.
There's such a wide and diverseum opportunities in terms of
job types, countries, areas.
You know, even being just anentrepreneur and just opening up
(19:09):
your own company and saying I'mgoing to win some business, I'm
going to employ somescaffolders, let's do some work
Because, as I said, the work isthere.
Universal Studios, you know thenew theme park they're looking
for scaffolders.
All the work being.
You know going theme parkthey're looking for scaffolders.
Um, all the all the work being.
You know.
Going on in um, in for theworld cup, you know they're
looking scaffolders, you know.
So there's so much opportunitythere and I think people need.
(19:32):
If people knew about it, Ithink they'll be saying I want
to be a scaffolder because youknow there is the work there.
So that's that's why.
That's why I think peopleshould want to be a scaffolding
okay, wonderful, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Um, you failed miserably at keeping under 60
seconds.
You can't bottle thatenthusiasm, and what I know that
is um, there's an amazingladder, a career ladder for
those who want to get into thescaffolding industries.
Okay, and just finally fortoday, paul, how can folks
connect with you?
You and I have been connectedfor 15 plus years, but how can
folks connect with you onlinkedin email, wherever else?
(20:07):
And, of course, how can theylearn more about?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
the national.
So obviously I'm on linkedin.
Paul napper, n-a-p-p-e-r.
Um.
There's only one of me thatworks at nasc, at NASC, the
website NASCorguk orscissorsorguk.
I mean, there's alsoscaffolding careers.
Alloneworkcom is our talentportal, but all the information
(20:34):
about NASC and scissors is onthose two websites.
I'm always open to connectionson LinkedIn and you'll find me
on there.
I'm always out and about aswell.
So if anyone wants to meet mefor coffee, you know, please
feel free.
And and yeah, you know, as Isaid, I'm open to any ideas.
If anyone has any, if anyonehas any ideas from different
industries they want to share,or or if I can help them with
(20:56):
ideas from scaffold industry,drop me a line.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Very good.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today, mr Knapper, my
friend, lovely catching up withyou.
Thank you very much for beingmy guest.
Thank you, bill, see you laterand listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
And visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, bill Bannam, and
joining me on the show today ismy old colleague and friend,
someone that I recentlyreconnected with.
We worked together many, many,many years ago, paul Knapper.
Paul is the current head oftraining and education over at
(00:47):
NASC, the leading trade body inscaffolding and access in the UK
.
He's worked in training andeducation, lloyd's Maritime
Academy and conferences in othersectors.
He's also a trustee at HMSUnicorn and the Countryside
Regeneration Trust.
Paul, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Has it really been that long, bill?
I mean, it seems like onlyyesterday that we were chatting
around automotive logistics bitsand pieces.
But yeah, no, great toreconnect and talk about what
I'm up to now.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It has been a while.
I've aged a lot.
Obviously, you look exactly thesame as when we worked together
.
So, paul, paul, you've workedin training and education across
a range of sectors, frommaritime to property to to
scaffolding.
Now you and I also workedtogether in the publishing
sector many years ago.
As we've just established.
What drew you to thescaffolding and access industry
(01:40):
and what excites you most aboutyour role over at NASC?
Speaker 3 (01:45):
So I guess the main thing for me really is about
opportunity.
It's something which,throughout my career, I've
always tried to encourage.
You know, more capacity, Iguess, in the various different
sectors.
You know, when I worked forLloyd's Maritime Academy, for
example's all about creatingkind of lifelong learning paths
(02:06):
within the maritime industry.
You know, encouraging peoplewho've been working on ships for
20, 30 years to actually lookat a career back on shore,
looking at training within that.
(02:27):
There was something about youknow kind of the scaffold
scaffolding sector that reallydrew me to how underappreciated
it was as a massively importantsector in the first place.
But secondly, I guess my kindof experience in in building
that opportunity and lifelonglearning and creating that, that
opportunity within scaffoldingis something which I think is is
hugely um vital for you know ukeconomy um in in in general,
(02:50):
but also within the constructionsector on a global level um,
but also more kind of um interms of, I guess, trying to
create a, you know, a viabletraining um, viable career path
for people, whether they'restraight out of college or
whether it's a second career,whether they've come out of a
disadvantaged background orwhatever.
(03:10):
So I see this as a hugeopportunity for me to develop
something which has appeal foracross the board and really put
something in place for thefuture.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Okay, very good.
Thank you very much.
So let's face it, scaffoldingmight not be the first career
(03:46):
path that people think of, butthere's a heck of a lot of
opportunity in the field.
Uh, it seems like there's lotsof construction happening at the
moment all over the place.
What, what do you think needsto be done to shift public
perception and attract newtalent?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
so I think I think it's it's um, it's it's a tough
one.
I think the you know what I'mseeing is that there's a lot of
people that see it as lastresort, um, as something which,
oh, you know my data scaffolderI'm going to be a scaffolder now
but actually I think actuallyit's what I'm looking at now is
it's not just scaffolders.
You know that people, um, youknow, within the industry you've
(04:23):
got health and safety managers,you've got contract managers,
you've got entrepreneurs, you'vegot people working in different
areas of scaffolding actuallynot just stop at scaffolders,
but I think even those peoplethat do stop at scaffolding,
there's people I know earning100, 100 000 pound a year.
You know if you get onto, youknow um, an advanced card if
you're, you know if you haveyour own company.
(04:43):
Always there is things.
If you end up working in a veryspecific like the offshore
sector, you can earn some goodmoney.
And I think what's interestingis that there is so much
opportunity within the industry,not just the scaffolder, but
you know various other jobs, asI said, but also within things
(05:03):
like the universal studios themepark that's opening up.
You know there's jobs therethat that you know are opening
up for for the industry.
But also, what's amazing billis um I was talking about this
the other day um, at a momentthere's something like 1800
vacancies per week inscaffolding.
So there's the capacity therefor people to actually say you
know, there's jobs available andat the moment there's a crisis,
(05:26):
there's like a skills gap.
There's, there's companies thatneed scaffolders.
You know, we're trying toencourage people to say look,
there is a job here, there is acareer path here.
You know, and it's not just thedirty, you know, all weather
scaffold jobs that peoplethought of in the past.
There's other jobs that are,you know, on the past.
There's other jobs that are,you know, on the parallel to
that.
But at the same time, you canmake good money if you go into
(05:48):
it.
So it's creating that, I guess,opportunity and viability for
young people to explore it as acareer and as a fun, exciting,
possibly lucrative career aswell.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Okay, let's delve into that a bit more, paul, if
you don't mind, specificallyaround ways that the NASC is
working with schools, withcolleges and with universities
to create clearer pathways intoscaffolding, and maybe you can
share what's workingparticularly well at the moment
and what are your ambitions forthe next 12 to 24 months.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
So I've actually just recruited someone who's
starting next week, um who isgoing to be managing that whole
process for me.
What we have at the moment wehave a thing called a talent
pack, and this talent packessentially is a couple of
pop-up banners, some leaflets,but what's really exciting is
also a vr headset.
Now members of nasc,scaffolding contracting, members
(06:49):
of NASC, can hire one of thesetalent packs for free for two
weeks to take with them to aschool's or college careers fair
and showcase what it's like tobe a scaffolder with that VR
headset.
We've got all this equipmentthat we're lending out to our
(07:10):
members free of charge toactually promote Scaffolding as
a career to schools, colleges,further education, higher
education and my new team memberis going to be proactively
pushing that to members andschools and colleges as well.
But what we've also got, we'vealso got something called a
talent portal.
Now, that talent portalessentially is something that
(07:30):
we're marketing through ourvarious events that we do.
So we're, uh, we're at ukconstruction week in a few weeks
time.
Um, we've got our own event,scafex in september, which we're
going to have 3 000 peopleattend, um huge event that um
that we're running.
Um, keith lemon's going to bethere.
Um, sorry, if you rememberkeith the comedian, he's going
to be one of the hosts.
Um, you know, we're reallypromoting it as a career, but
(07:51):
the beauty about his talentportal is a website where people
can register their interest tobe a scaffolder, upload their
details.
Companies can do the same, theycan upload their vacancies and
we can join the two proactively.
We can say to a scaffoldcontractor look, we've got a
scaffolder in your region that'slooking for work.
(08:12):
You know, there you go and inthis case, of practically
managing that now with theschools and colleges.
You know we have a relationshipwith some good college
providers.
We're also talking to a companyat the moment that's been
looking at creating videos whichtie in with the national
curriculum, creating videoswhich tie in with the national
curriculum.
So they have to show.
(08:32):
They show these videos as partof the curriculum and I think
they're working with the RAF onone and we're talking with them
about doing potentially one onscaffolding which will then be
sent to hundreds of collegesaround the UK which they can
then use as part of theircurriculum to show people.
It's a viable career choice.
There is that kind of stuffgoing on.
(09:00):
There's also talk um, about, um, uh, the.
At a moment the career path isa um, a very standard um
scaffold card that gets you to,you know, to be on a scaffold
site.
Then you, then you do sixmonths, then you do a part one,
another six months to a part two.
But also we're now looking at alevel four apprenticeship.
So hnc, a level fiveapprenticeship, hnd, and then
university apprenticeship.
(09:20):
And talking to universities andgetting them to deliver
apprenticeship at universitylevel is really important for us
because it shows that actuallywe're not.
We're not limited to, you know,just school and college leavers
.
We're not limited to, you know,just school and college leavers
.
We're actually saying why notgo to university, why not look
at other things like contractmanagement, quantity surveying,
you know all the big techmanagement stuff.
(09:43):
You know why stop there.
So what I want to do isencourage lots and lots of
different schools and collegesand providers to actually look
at scaffolding, not as just alast resort or anything, but
actually we can work with you tocreate something that's
appealing for leaders to say,hey, this is something that,
that's that's.
You know, I can do.
You know, as long as you're youknow, and you know, as long as
(10:06):
you're enthusiastic, I guessbecause we we want people who
are like saying you know, thisis something that I can actually
make my mark in and I think,working with schools, colleges,
to actually see that in practicewhether it's VR headsets,
whether it's going topotentially go into a site see
it in action, maybe doing workexperience as well it's
something that you know.
(10:26):
My role essentially is to kindof like create that enthusiasm
opportunity but at the same time, say you know what?
I'm open to ideas.
Whatever it takes to build thatcapacity, whatever it takes to
fill those vacancies, whateverit takes to get school leavers,
university leavers, graduates,to say why not scaffolding and
(10:51):
design contract.
There's so many different jobswithin that and I think my part
of my job now is to open thatout to the population and say
you know, why not, why not you?
You know?
So the wider conversationaround schools and colleges is
making sure that we have thatdialogue on a national level.
Um, you know, talking to thegovernment, talking to, you know
, devolved authorities, localauthorities, making sure that
you know our members at nasc,who are audited as well as part
(11:13):
of our membership standards,making sure that those employers
that they employ are competentand trained to understand that
we need to be as well which is afantastic lead-in to my next
question.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Um around around standards, um.
So scaffolding and relatedareas, such as construction,
obviously they are heavily,heavily um regulated.
They need to be, you know.
They have massive health andsafety concerns.
If, if, if they weren't, ifthey weren't regulated and the
national access to scaffoldingconfederation is widely
recognized for setting safetyand technical standards in the
(11:49):
scaffolding industry, of coursewhy are these standards, paul,
so essential and how do theyimpact the day-to-day work of
member organizations?
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
So obviously we have the TG20 and the TG30, which are
the two main standards that wekind of set.
You know, tg30 is the newestone, which is all about system
scaffolding, but TG20 is thebasic kind of main one Now that
all relates to the erection, thebuild and dismantling of
(12:19):
scaffolding and dismantling ofscaffolding.
And what's interesting aboutthis essentially is that it's
one of those standards which isso ingrained now within the
scaffolding industry that ourmembers have access to it as
part of their membership.
But non-members can alsopurchase the guidance and
(12:41):
non-members purchase theguidance and can and non-members
purchased guidance and can usethat guidance in what we call an
e-portal.
And that e-portal allows themto put together a compliance,
electronic compliance sheet sothey can put out all their, all
their measurements ofscaffolding and it will draw up
a compliance sheet for them withan actual diagram, an actual
specify, the load bears, theload bearing, calculations,
(13:02):
everything.
So.
So non-members can pay for thatseparately but members have it
as part of their membership nowto be a member of nasc.
And bearing in mind, we have320 um scaffolding contractor
members which make up 80 percentof the uk scaffolding industry
by revenue, right?
So we're talking the bigcommercial scaffolding companies
.
Now they have to be auditedevery two years.
(13:23):
Those audits take place as adesktop audit but also as a site
visit.
Now part of that audit is theyobviously have to correspond to
all our guidance and standards.
But also 90 of our scaffoldershave to have the scissors card.
To get the scissors card youhave to have gone through a
process of training to be ascaffold and getting your card
processed.
Now we are so committed to thiswhole process of auditing that
(13:49):
we're looking at risk-basedauditing Instead of going
through this binary auditingprocess.
Now where compliant andnon-compliant, we're saying well
, you know, we should beauditing by.
You know the levels of risk andso on inherent in that member.
So we're now looking at adifferent way of auditing using
that.
But what's more important, Iguess, is that our standards are
so, I guess, stringent andwelcome and respected.
(14:14):
That actually now I'm going toJersey in a few weeks' time.
Talk to the government ofJersey about actually training
Jersey scaffolders in thestandards that we do scissors.
We're talking to australia.
Australia are now looking at um, uh, you know, using our
standard as their standard forscaffolding.
We're talking to americabecause america have no safety
(14:36):
standards in scaffolding allright.
They literally are no safetystandards.
So we're going out there totalk to them about safety
standards, about, you know, allthis kind of stuff.
We Northern Ireland, you knowthere's so many countries
Malaysia we spoke to Malaysia.
Malaysia want 20 trainingcenters Right Now.
This is something that Malaysiahave said to us.
(14:56):
You know we need this in placebecause we need to.
We've got so much constructiongoing on.
We need the proper standards,that that we are recognized for
nasc and to train those up weneed to put our own training
program in place.
So this is, this has thecapacity to be replicated around
the globe.
Essentially.
So there's a huge potential umfor not just nasc and
(15:20):
obviouslyissors and our membersand all that kind of stuff, but
also the UK as like aworld-leading standard, setting
the standards for constructionglobally, but also setting the
standards for scaffolding andreplicating that across
different countries to make surethat our scaffold is the best
in the world.
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Speaker 2 (16:21):
Very good, and you just covered two more questions
I had about theinternationalization of what you
guys are doing, so very good,and you just covered.
Uh, two more questions I hadabout the internationalization
of what you guys are doing, sovery good.
In that case, two morequestions for you before we,
before we wrap up.
Uh, today, uh, given everythingyou've said so far in one
minute or less, paul because Ilike to challenge my guests
sometimes uh, why shouldlisteners consider a a career in
?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
scaffolding.
I think the main thing reallyreally is like it's not just
scaffolding, you know, there'sscaffolding design, there's
contract management, there'shealth and safety management,
there's entrepreneurship.
Our president at the moment,for example, is not a scaffolder
but he built up a scaffoldingcompany from scratch and that
company is now worth bringing inmillions of pounds of revenue
(17:02):
because he recognized actuallyscaffolding is a really exciting
industry to be in and just bycreating that company and owning
that company he's, you know,brought in, he's employed lots
of people, he's brought inbusiness and I think essentially
it's scaffolding is one ofthose areas like, um, it is what
you make of it.
You know, if you want to be acontract manager, you want to be
helping safety, you want to bea trainer, want to be.
(17:23):
If you want to be a contractmanager, you want to be helping
safety, you want to be a trainer, want to be an instructor, you
want to be, you know, bringingpeople into the industry.
You can do it.
You can do whatever you want tobecause there are at the moment
it's almost like a startupscaffolding.
In my opinion.
It's like a startup in that youcan say you know what, I'm
going to create something andI'm going to change the way we
do it.
And although we have standardsin place, you know, quite strict
in terms of the technicalstandards and so on, the job
(17:45):
roles are so diverse, what youcan do, you know we're welcoming
different approaches todifferent things, you know.
But we're also looking atthings like, you know, proper
business management, contractmanagement, design, health and
safety.
You know procurement, sales.
You know it's just a differentsector, but the point is, it's
scaffolding itself.
The uk is, in my opinion, theleading country in terms of what
(18:08):
scaffolding looks like.
And I think if you're trainedin the scissors, you know
standard and you can work aroundthe world and you can.
You know you can do scaffoldingwherever you want to.
And, uh, you know, essentiallythere's lots of money to be made
as well, and I think that'sanother.
That's another thing as well.
(18:28):
You know you've got people, asI said before, working on the
offshore platforms, verycomplicated platforms, you know.
You know quite harsh conditionsat times.
But actually if you do it forfive, ten years, you've made
quite a bit of money and I thinkthen you can say, right, okay,
now I'm going to go intocontract management, now I'm
going to do scaffold design, youknow.
So it's it's.
(18:49):
Have I spoken more than aminute?
I don't know.
But anyway, the um, you know,the point I'm trying to make is
it's such an exciting sector toget involved in um and there's
so many.
There's such a wide and diverseum opportunities in terms of
job types, countries, areas.
You know, even being just anentrepreneur and just opening up
(19:09):
your own company and saying I'mgoing to win some business, I'm
going to employ somescaffolders, let's do some work
Because, as I said, the work isthere.
Universal Studios, you know thenew theme park they're looking
for scaffolders.
All the work being.
You know going theme parkthey're looking for scaffolders.
Um, all the all the work being.
You know.
Going on in um, in for theworld cup, you know they're
looking scaffolders, you know.
So there's so much opportunitythere and I think people need.
(19:32):
If people knew about it, Ithink they'll be saying I want
to be a scaffolder because youknow there is the work there.
So that's that's why.
That's why I think peopleshould want to be a scaffolding
okay, wonderful, thank you.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Um, you failed miserably at keeping under 60
seconds.
You can't bottle thatenthusiasm, and what I know that
is um, there's an amazingladder, a career ladder for
those who want to get into thescaffolding industries.
Okay, and just finally fortoday, paul, how can folks
connect with you?
You and I have been connectedfor 15 plus years, but how can
folks connect with you onlinkedin email, wherever else?
(20:07):
And, of course, how can theylearn more about?
Speaker 3 (20:11):
the national.
So obviously I'm on linkedin.
Paul napper, n-a-p-p-e-r.
Um.
There's only one of me thatworks at nasc, at NASC, the
website NASCorguk orscissorsorguk.
I mean, there's alsoscaffolding careers.
Alloneworkcom is our talentportal, but all the information
(20:34):
about NASC and scissors is onthose two websites.
I'm always open to connectionson LinkedIn and you'll find me
on there.
I'm always out and about aswell.
So if anyone wants to meet mefor coffee, you know, please
feel free.
And and yeah, you know, as Isaid, I'm open to any ideas.
If anyone has any, if anyonehas any ideas from different
industries they want to share,or or if I can help them with
(20:56):
ideas from scaffold industry,drop me a line.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Very good.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today, mr Knapper, my
friend, lovely catching up withyou.
Thank you very much for beingmy guest.
Thank you, bill, see you laterand listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
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