July 9, 2025 • 32 mins
What happens when one executive combines legal expertise with human resources leadership? Joshua Horenstein, Senior Vice President, Chief Legal and Human Resources Officer & Corporate Secretary at Innophos, reveals the powerful advantages of his dual role in this fascinating conversation.
Leading both legal and HR departments for a global phosphate company with 1,500 employees worldwide, Joshua leverages his unique position to provide comprehensive solutions that traditional, siloed departments often miss. "Running both departments has made me better at both functions," he explains. "It made me a better lawyer, a better executive, a better leader overall."
Throughout his 15-year tenure at InnoFOS, Joshua has navigated significant corporate transitions, including a $1 billion public-private sale. His cross-functional perspective proved invaluable during these pivotal moments, allowing him to address both the structural aspects of transactions and their human impacts simultaneously. "CEOs and boards like just having one person to talk to," he notes, highlighting how his multifaceted role streamlines executive communication.
Beyond his formal responsibilities, Joshua also leads the company's ESG initiatives with a practical approach that balances environmental and social objectives with business performance. "I refuse to believe you can't be a good environmental steward and also make money," he asserts, though he acknowledges this equilibrium requires thoughtful effort rather than pursuing ESG initiatives for their own sake.
Mentorship represents another cornerstone of Joshua's leadership philosophy. Drawing from mentors who shaped his own career, he's implemented innovative programs at InnoFOS, including an English-Spanish buddy system connecting employees across different regions—strengthening both language skills and cross-cultural collaboration.
For professionals navigating their own system transformations, Joshua offers this wisdom: "Plan...but part of that humility is recognizing it's never going to go 100 percent to plan." This balanced perspective—thorough preparation paired with adaptive flexibility—defines his approach to leadership challenges in today's complex corporate landscape.
Connect with Joshua on LinkedIn to continue the conversation about cross-functional leadership and how breaking down departmental silos can create more effective executive leadership.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom and visitHRGazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, Bill Bannum, and
joining me on the show today isJoshua Hornstein, Senior Vice
President, Chief Legal and HumanResource Officer and Corporate
Secretary over at InnoFOS.
Josh, welcome to the show today.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Doing great.
Phil, Thank you for having meon.
What a treat.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Before we go any further, just a shout out to our
mutual friend, jeff Wold, whoput us in contact.
Josh, as we like to do on thisshow, why don't you start by
taking a couple of minutes andintroducing yourself to our
listeners, telling them a bitabout yourself, your passions,
your career background and whatgets you up in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Thanks, Bill.
So once again, thank you to allthe listeners.
I really appreciate being on.
As Bill mentioned, I'm a SeniorVice President of Legal and of
HR at InnoFOS, which is aphosphate company.
We are based in New Jersey,near princeton, new jersey, but
we have facilities allthroughout the world in canada,
(01:30):
us, mexico.
We have a facility in china aswell.
We have employees all over theglobe also.
We make specialty ingredientsfor all different applications,
mainly in the food industry, butalso in technical areas.
So if you go to a supermarketin the US and you go down the
middle aisles, most cases thefood in that aisle so packaged
(01:55):
good, baked good, frozen goodhas some sort of phosphates in
it.
It's either from us or one ofour competitors.
So it's a really neat business.
I've been here for about 15years, so I started out.
I'm a lawyer by training.
I started working in the legaldepartment, but I was very
ambitious and worked hard andwas promoted, and promoted, and
(02:17):
promoted until I got to the headof the legal department.
They decided I wasn't busyenough, so they put me in charge
of the HR department and thenthey put a few other departments
under me as well and it'sreally been a great time, great
experience, great developmentover these 15 years in NFS great
company, really important partof the overall you know food
(02:40):
supply and business area, and soit's it's been a really great
business.
I am more personally.
I grew up and I live outsidethe Philadelphia area, so I'm a
rabid Philadelphia sports fan.
I live in the area of I like toanalyze it to your viewers in
(03:02):
Europe or Canada it's theclosest thing I've ever seen to
an English soccer fan or Englishfootball fan Philadelphia fan
and so a big fan of PhiladelphiaPhillies and Eagles as well.
And that's a little bit aboutme.
I, like I said, I've been alawyer by training and an
executive here.
(03:22):
I worked at a few law firmsbefore coming to NFAS in 2010.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Now back to the show.
Just before we hit record, Isaid to you, Josh, I don't think
I've you know, as we wererecording this today, we're
about to hit episode 800 on theHR Chat Show, but I don't think
I've ever interviewed anyonewho's a chief legal officer and
a CHRO.
That's a couple of impressivehats to wear at the same time.
(04:05):
How has holding both of thoseroles influenced your leadership
style and your decision making?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So I usually start off with a joke about it and I
say the best part about beingthe head of legal and head of HR
is if you have a problem withlegal, go talk to the head of HR
, and if you have a problem withHR, go talk to the head of
legal.
If you have a problem with HR,go talk to the head of lead.
And so it's been a really greatexperience in blending those
two.
You know really importantfunctions and being able to draw
(04:32):
out the cross-functionalsynergies with both departments.
You know, in terms of myleadership style and you know
how I kind of run thedepartments, I found that
running both departments hasmade me better at both functions
, right.
So it actually made me a betterlawyer, it made me a better
executive, it makes me a betterleader overall for the company
(04:53):
by having that kind ofcross-function and global
experience.
There's a lot of nuance to itand a lot of complexity, but if
you're someone who enjoys thattype of work and that type of
multitasking and being able tosolve problems on different
levels and at differentperspectives, and you love
learning a different approach toa problem or a solution, this
(05:18):
is a really great role forsomeone to take on.
I really believe that havingthe legal background is so
important in the CHRO world, notbecause you want to have a
legal approach to every HR issue, but it just gives you that
confidence and the kind ofanalytical thinking that gives
you that secondary thinking ofhow you address you know an HR
(05:41):
problem.
So you know when I'm looking atcompensation I don't have to
worry about is my compensationplan legal?
I already know that.
I kind of have thatpsychological background already
to it and then I can attack thecompensation issue at hand.
So if we're regrading roles orI'm trying to make sure pay is
equitable between differentgroups, it really helps to have
(06:05):
that double cross-functionalapproach.
And then on the HR side, frombeing a lawyer, it helps you
focus your different skill sets.
So if you think about just somebasic skill sets there, so
persuading someone a lawyerlearns a way of arguing, a way
of making your case.
But having an HR perspective onit gives you a whole other
(06:29):
aspect to it.
It makes you more humanobviously.
It makes you more kind ofnarrowed down on what's really
practical and what's importantto people from a personal level.
And then it also makes you morereasonable.
You know reasonableness is oneof those skill sets I think
people always say I'm working on, or people say I always try to
(06:51):
be reasonable or try to bepractical.
But having that HR background,having that HR perspective,
where you have to deal withdifferent employees from
different parts of the US orparts of Canada or parts of
Mexico around around the worldand then have to tailor your
solutions based on that HR kindof support service, it makes you
(07:12):
such a better lawyer, makes yousuch a better executive, having
all those skill sets all in one.
So I agree, I think it's aunique skill set.
I'm always a little tickled ofhow people think it's so unique,
because it comes so naturallyto me that these two functions
should be kind of working inunison, and so I really enjoy
(07:34):
the day-to-day on this.
Every day is a new challengeand every day is something very
interesting to work on.
I've never had a day where it'sjust I'm doing the same thing
over and over.
I always find a new,interesting approach to what
we're trying to tackle here atthe company.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And let's hope that you get two pay packets, given
that you're doing two jobs.
So you helped Leeds Interfosthrough a $1 billion
publicprivate sale.
Can you now take a couple ofminutes and talk us through a
few of the HR and the legalcomplexities of that kind of
transition and your role inhelping to keep teams engaged
(08:16):
throughout that process?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So, yeah, so, the sale of my company.
We were purchased by a privateequity firm about five years ago
.
We were a public company beforethat time, purchased by a
private equity firm about fiveyears ago.
We were a public company beforethat time period, for a long
time, or the entire portion ofmy tenure before that, and so
that transition was a veryimportant and obviously very
(08:38):
challenging transition to gothrough.
You know, having both functions, I like to say, helped
tremendously as we went throughthe aspects of that.
As the CLO or Chief LegalCounsel for the company, you
have to start from the beginning.
You're advising the CEO and theboard as you put the company up
(09:02):
for sale, as you look at withyour investment bankers and
looking at all the differentstrategic approaches to selling
a company.
So you're already in there andthat your legal training teaches
you to be inquisitive, thinkabout what aspects of the sale
are gonna be challenges or whatare the opportunities there, and
so you're always looking forthe kind of the risks and the
(09:26):
operational.
How do you get it done?
How do you get the results goout and announce the sale?
How do you work on theagreements?
How do you do the diligence?
You know all of those issues.
The hr part of it gives youthat human aspect to it.
So you know what's going tohappen with the executives on
their comp.
You, you know exactly what'sgoing to happen with the
(09:47):
employees.
You, you know where thechallenges would be for a buyer
of uh.
You know what, how theemployees would react to a sale
of the company.
And so having all of that kindof focus together in that one
role, it's like a one-stop shop.
It makes you more efficient,makes you more valuable to the
company.
As you go through that, I usedto, I like to say, with the CEOs
(10:10):
and the boards that I've workedwith, I think they like just
having one person to talk to.
Nobody wants to have an extrameeting if they don't have to,
right?
You can just talk to me aboutthe legal and the HR issues and
we can focus very clearly onwhat needs to get done right.
And so having that role reallyhelped as we were getting to
(10:33):
sell the company and thentransition to the new buyers.
And I think the greatestevidence of that is, you know,
for me personally is how I'vebeen with the company through
multiple transitions like this.
I'm working with my third CEOsince I've been at Interfas, you
know, with a different boardthrough the transition
(10:56):
transition, and so I've reallybeen able to leverage that kind
of expertise with multipledifferent stakeholders and then
be able to find what they neededand answer and solve their
solutions, as opposed to justbeing kind of rigid and this is
what we do and there's nochanging it right.
Having that cross-functionalapproach teaches you you have to
be nimble, you have to becreative, you have to understand
(11:17):
what your stakeholders want andsolve their problem, not your
problem and so find the solutionthat they're looking for, even
if you think it may not be theright approach for the company,
but persuading them that theyneed to change their approach a
little bit, but then also beopen to I need to think about it
in a different way, because thenew stakeholder has a new
approach that they want to takethe company and so you have to
(11:40):
really be nimble.
And that cross-functional CHROChief Legal Officer really gives
you kind of the footing and thebackground for that you do.
A foundation for how youapproach that you know whatever
the challenge is, it's your sidefoundation for how you put.
That you know whatever thechallenge is.
As you're signing up, I'm happyto say we did.
(12:03):
I think we did a very goodtransition in terms of moving
the company from a public to aprivate.
It was a very successful saleof the company the company that
owns us now.
I think we've done a great jobof keeping the business going
forward and improving thebusiness, and so that's the best
evidence of doing a great job,of keeping the business going
forward and improving thebusiness, and so that's the best
evidence of doing a good job ona transition is that the
company keeps moving forwardduring that transition and, you
(12:24):
know, even through differentexecutives or different employee
groups and different strategiesfor the business, we've been
able to really run thissuccessful business through all
of those transitions.
Having that dual CHRO chieflegal officer really is
invaluable in those types ofbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Okay, thank you.
I think you said in your answerthere that you have had three
different CEOs during your nineyears during your tenure at the
company.
Um, I often talk to folks onthis show uh, very senior hr
leaders who say, bill, it's hardto be heard at the top levels,
(13:03):
it's hard to get a seat at thetable, so to speak.
Do you find, josh, becauseyou've got this dual role, this
legal aspect to you, as well asa more more traditional HR piece
, that actually is easier to beheard at the top table?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean just from a basic.
You know, quantity perspectiveright, I bring more to the table
.
When I'm talking to a CEO,right, I bring the legal
expertise and I bring the CHROexpertise right, I bring the you
know, over time now I've alsobring the institutional
expertise right.
So if you think about it fromthe CEO perspective or from the
(13:42):
board perspective, when you'retalking to me and I have both
these roles, I'm like a fountainof information, right, I'm a
fountain of what the company isdoing.
And then as you work with meand as you engage with me and
you see how I try and meld, youknow, a practical solution
between both departments and Ireally do not the.
They love hearing that you cankind of meld the problem, find
(14:05):
the solution, get it doneefficiently and know what you're
talking about right.
And that's the, that's thebeauty of these roles, right,
(14:26):
you can if you do it right, ifyou put in the hard work to
learn the different functions,if you are challenging all of
your counterparts and yourcolleagues and what they're
doing and bring your expertiseto the table.
It's a really nice thing towatch With the different CEOs.
I think it's one of the reasonsI've lasted through all of these
(14:50):
different transitions isbecause it's different
personalities.
It's different strategictransitions is because you know
it's different personalities.
It's different strategicvisions for the company, right,
and that's all good stuff.
Um, you know, a ceo always hastheir strengths and their
weaknesses, right.
Just like you know, I have mystrengths and my weaknesses.
But being able as a chro and achief legal officer to bring the
(15:12):
information start out out, I'ma great resource.
Then working with them, askingthem what they want to do and
trying to figure out how myexpertise and my information
sources help them get to wherethey need to get to, and then
having that you know backgroundof having to deal with all these
cross-functional problems andthey can see right away that I
try and find a cross-functional,reasonable solution.
(15:34):
I don't pretend to have all theanswers and that's kind of what
you learn when you take bothroles right.
You have to be humble,especially as a lawyer who is
trained to kind of have allthose answers right.
You're supposed to know the lawinside and out.
You're supposed to, you know,be kind of give that gravitas to
the role.
When you take on the other roleof a CHRO, you have to be a
(15:54):
little bit humble in saying Ineed to learn what benefits is.
I need to learn what comp isright.
I need to.
You know, see what my HRSsystem.
I can't just be a user of it, Ihave to be an expert on it,
right, or know enough about itto be able to weigh in on these
topics.
But once you get past that kindof learning curve in the
beginning, you really bring avaluable resource right.
(16:16):
It's, you know, having all thatexpertise and just being able to
talk to that one person kind ofputs the CEO at ease.
They have lots of challenges todeal with the CEO to begin with
, right, they have to come inand set a vision for the company
.
They're responsible for theresults.
You know that's the personwho's ultimately responsible for
seeing the company.
They do not want to spend tonsand tons of time trying to
(16:37):
figure out the legal and the HRissues.
They are important.
They want to make sure they getdone.
But they want to learn.
They want to focus on thecommercial aspects or the
operational aspects and knowthat you're there to help them
(16:58):
and be strategic in yoursolutions.
It's just there.
It's a great thing to watch,right?
I can't I don't pretend to saythat it's easy.
Right, it's, it's a.
You have to put in the hardwork.
You have to, you know, reallychallenge yourself, and then you
have to be willing to failevery once in a while.
You know, make a bad decisionbecause you took some risk.
(17:18):
But even when you fail, if youpresent it in a way of this is
where I was trying to get to Irealized I made that wrong turn.
But I realized it's so muchquicker because I had both
departments, whereas if you onlyhave one department, you may
not realize you made a bad turnfor twice as long.
It helps you head it off at thepass.
Have one department, you maynot realize you made a bad turn
for, you know, twice as long,right, it helps you head it off
(17:40):
at the pass.
One of my favorite sayings Iactually learned it from our
environmental teams over theyears is you know, taking, you
know or finding out what yourreasonable worst case scenarios
are, as opposed to your worstcase scenarios.
Right, everybody knows wherethe worst case scenario is.
You can talk about all thetremendous things that can go
wrong, right.
But if you can narrow that downto what's the reasonable worst
case, right.
So you can kind of set theguardrails on what your, your
(18:03):
decision making is.
That's so much more valuablethan saying, oh, if the world
came to an end, here's whatwould happen if we made this
decision.
If you can give them that like,here's the 80 or 90% chance of
what's going to happen, and thenhere's the 10 or 20%, but
that's not reasonable.
What's within the 80 or 90 isthe reasonable.
Ceos love that, in my opinion.
(18:24):
They love hearing what's theirguard wells and how do you keep
minimizing and bringing thatrisk profile down, but not in a
way where you try and eliminatethe risk, which is impossible.
So I could go on and on, bill.
There are so many differentaspects to how you can address
that, but I think the maintakeaway from this is you start
(18:49):
with you have a greatinformation resource because you
know all the departments.
You've learned from runningthese departments.
You get that foundation ofreadjusting your thinking, your
approach.
Your decision-making becomesbetter.
You get better answers, bettersolutions, and then you present
your board or your executiveteam with I want to do what you
(19:09):
want to do and I'm trying to getyou there.
And I'm trying to get you there, and because I have this
knowledge and because I havethis practical approach, even
when I say we can't quite do itthe way you want to do it, but
we can do it a little bitdifferent, I you know, eight
times out of 10, nine times outof 10, I can persuade them that
this little tweak to whatthey're doing makes it so much
better.
And that's, you know, again,that's the sweet spot, that's,
(19:32):
that's, that's the fun in thejob.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I love that.
So work hard, but also have thehumility to recognize that
you're not going to geteverything perfect every time.
But show people that you areworking towards that and you'll
rise up the ladder and you'll bea success.
There we go, hey.
Sometimes in these episodes Ilike to switch things up and I
(19:58):
like to challenge people.
I'm going to do that right now.
I'm going to ask you, in 60seconds or less, Josh, to give
us some insights around the factthat you've revamped HR systems
worldwide, from HIS to payrollto compensation.
In your previous answer, youmentioned that you had to become
an expert in HRS, for example.
In 60 seconds or less, Josh,what advice do you have for
(20:21):
other senior HR leaders outthere taking on large scale
systems transformations?
Go?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I would say two things.
First is plan.
You know you have to do theprep work when you're
integrating or creating a newsystem.
And then the second part ispart of that humility you have
to recognize that it's nevergoing to go 100 percent to plan
Right.
So you need to prepare, notjust how you're going to do it
and every step in the process.
You need to prepare that one ofthose steps is not going to
(20:49):
come out exactly how you want it.
So if you prepare on bothaspects and then you are ready
for the challenge, even for thethings you have no idea what's
going to come up, thatunexpected challenge that is how
you will get, you will have themost success in creating a
system.
Back to the pivot on what wewere talking about.
When you come and take on a newfunction, like I did, I had to
(21:12):
prep, I did the best I could,but then I also had to be
prepared.
I didn't know everything Ineeded to know, or I didn't know
it from the beginning.
So I had to prepare and be ableto not fall, you know, not go
to pieces when that unexpectedcomes up.
I think that was under a minute.
Did I make it?
I think so.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I think you did.
You just made that very goodwork.
Okay, let's talk about ESGenvironmental, social and
governance.
That's becoming a key focusarea for many organizations, and
rightfully so, in my opinion.
What inspired you, josh, tocreate and lead the ESG function
over at InnoVoss, and what havebeen your biggest learnings so
(21:54):
far?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
So I think one of the things when you take on the
CHRO and the chief legal officerrole or this multi, you kind of
people start to think of you as, oh, he can do this next
department or he can do thisnext initiative, which is a
really good thing, but it alsois you know, oh, how am I going
to run?
How am I going to create an ESGfunction?
I got that role sort of thesame way here.
(22:17):
Somebody had to do it.
I was a logical choice becauseI had done a lot of this
cross-functional and, to befrank, a lot of our other
executives are tied up on otherthings, so I stepped in to help
them so that I could manage this.
I have to rely on them for alot of the work that goes on
with ESG.
But, being in a company my size, we have 1,500 employees.
(22:38):
We are not a 30,000-employeeorganization, but we're not a
small organization, so we haveto prioritize our resources and
prioritize our approach, whichis the best thing I think about
how we run ESG and Interfos iswe are committed to making
things better for our employees,making our company the best it
(22:59):
can be and, you know, drivingour core values, but at the same
time, we have to prioritize andwe have to be practical.
We don't just do ESG for ESGsake.
We do it in a way that reallyhelps the company.
We try and find ESG solutionsthat actually improve the
company's performance.
That you know, we don't just do.
You know, if we have 10different ESG options, we don't
(23:20):
pick all 10 of them just becausethat's what ESG wants.
We take the ones that reallyhelp the company and then the
ones we can't.
We are humble about there'scertain things we can do and
there's certain things we can't,and I really think the ESG
world is going through that kindof transition right now.
There's the you know, the focuson things that are important.
You know making sure you treatyour employees with respect.
(23:40):
Make sure you everybody isgiven a fair shake.
You know you pay everybodycorrectly.
Try and treat you knoweverybody how they would want to
be treated right.
That's a very important goaland there's no one solution to
that and I think that's what'sgreat about what's going on in
the ESG world now is they'rehaving to come up with.
There's lots of ways to treatan employee with respect.
(24:02):
There's not just one way,there's not just one policy,
there's not just one approach totreating your employees with
respect, and so the same thingwith environmental and with
governance.
Governance you have to beethical and you have to be good
stewards of the company, but youdon't have to just do this one
policy.
This is the only way to dogovernance right.
(24:23):
We have to find lots ofdifferent solutions and I love
doing that from thatcross-functional approach.
So I you know, I love being incharge of the ESG group, but not
because I'm a huge ESGevangelist.
I love it because it helps meget to a business solution
sometimes and it helps me feelgood about I'm really helping
(24:43):
the employees, I'm helping ourstakeholders and I'm not losing
focus on the company has to makemoney.
You can't do ESG and then havethe company not make money.
Right, you have to find thesolution to both at the same
time.
If you don't, you don't have acompany, you have no ESG because
you don't have a company to run.
Same time, if you don't, youdon't have a, you have no ESG
because you don't have a companyto run.
So you have to take thatpractical approach.
(25:04):
You know, I stole a line fromour commercial team and our our
company, some of our boardmembers early on is you know you
come with a, with any type ofsolution it's not just ESG and
they say you know, you presentwhat you're doing and then the
response is that's great, whenwill it make us money?
Right, and so I love thatresponse because it just helps
(25:24):
you focus at the end of the day,like, we want to help the
environment and we want to doright, but we also have to make
sure the company makes money.
So and I refuse to believe youcan't do both right, you can't
be a good environmental stewardand also make money Right
environmental steward and alsomake money right.
But it's not easy sometimes.
You have to really work hard atit.
You can't just say I'm justgoing to do this for
environmental sake or forgovernance sake, right, you have
(25:46):
to really think about it andwork hard.
And then you have to rememberat the end of the day, we have
to make money.
So I love that transition that Ifeel is going on with the ESG
world today and I love how I gotto be in charge of it is yeah,
I was the only guy really thathad the time and could do it, or
you know they assigned it to,but you know, our whole ESG team
(26:08):
is a cross-functional approach.
Nobody really is, you know, incharge of ESG.
We all work together and I tryand lead the team just to make
sure we stay on track and getwhat we need to get done.
So again, another great exampleof where you can just you can
solve a problem, you know andyou can do.
You get that 80% or 90%solution if you just, you know,
(26:30):
start from a differentperspective as you're embarking
on the task.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And to be open to taking on new challenges, which
it sounds like you are.
We are already coming towardsthe end of this particular
conversation, josh, so I'm justgoing to have to get you on
again in the future, because Ihad a whole bunch of other
questions.
Just two more for you today, ifyou don't mind.
The next one, let's talk aboutmentorship.
Mentorship is something thatyou're passionate about,
(26:56):
particularly through your workwith Women Unlimited.
Passionate about particularlythrough your work with Women
Unlimited, josh.
Why is mentorship important toyou and what role does it play
in your leadership philosophy?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Well, mentorship's important to me.
One just because I've had somepretty good mentors during my
career.
I you know, when I was firststarting as a lawyer, I had a
really great mentor who helpedme focus on just looking at a
contract.
And he not to belabor the story, but he helped me just identify
.
The first thing he asked me iswhat's the most important thing
(27:30):
in a contract?
And I remember saying, oh, it'sall these legal provisions.
And he said, no, it's the price.
Stupid.
He said if you don't get thatright in the contract, your
client doesn't care what therest of the contract says.
Right, and it's not just aboutputting the right number in the
contract not to get too far inthe weeds, but there's all the
language around the price andhow it's calculated, how the
(27:51):
defined terms in the contract,right.
So I remember that mentor mywhole career.
I've been a lawyer for 22 yearsnow and so I keep that in the
back of my mind and it appliesto different aspects as well.
So when I had the opportunityto work with Women Unlimited, I
thought it was.
It's just amazing.
I've always found that being amentor, I actually get more.
(28:12):
I get more out of it than thementees right and I learn about
them.
I learn what they're doing andI've been able to apply that
here at Interfax.
We have a mentor program here atInterfax, but one of the unique
programs I think that we puttogether is I put together, we
call it our English Spanishbuddy program and basically all
(28:33):
it is is we have a lot ofemployees in Mexico, we have a
lot of employees in the US andCanada in Mexico, we have a lot
of employees in the US andCanada, and so what?
We?
We have a lot of employees inboth areas that are trying to
learn English or trying to learnSpanish, and all we did was
just pair.
We set up a program where wepair a US employee or a Canadian
employee with an employee inMexico and both of them teach
(28:54):
each other the language rightand not unlike a formalistic
kind of curriculum, they justhave conversations and just talk
to each other about differentinstances where they're working
together with you know somebodyfrom you know different parts of
the world at the company andthey just learn so they may talk
about.
(29:14):
Well, I'm in this, you know,budget meeting, and we keep
talking about this one term andI can't quite figure out the
right way to say it in Englishthat I want you to cut costs or
I want you to economize there,and that English person or the
US or Canadian employee helpsthe Spanish get out of the
awkward phrasing and they justtalk to them about it.
(29:37):
It's a low cost, it doesn't costus really anything.
We put the employees together,the employees develop a
friendship and a and a you know,a new perspective on on
learning the language and at thesame time, I think it helps the
business because you learn moreabout what the other employee
is doing right, just indirectly,by helping them on their
language skills.
So I think that's a greatexample where mentoring has
(29:59):
multiple benefits and that's why, as you can tell, I'm pretty
passionate about, you know,helping and mentoring as much as
we can.
Uh, we always need to do more,um, and I, you know I always
need to do more of the mentoringor uh, but uh, I really think
it's a.
It's a great way to help.
So, just in all aspects, yourcareer development and the
business as well excellent.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Excellent, and just finally for today, josh, how can
our listeners connect with youand learn more about what you're
getting up to?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool all overTikTok and Instagram and places?
Tell us more.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
So I am.
I'm limited to LinkedIn, so Ipost a bunch on LinkedIn.
I some of these catchphrasesthat you're hearing here, I've I
posted a bunch on LinkedIn, soI post a bunch on LinkedIn.
I some of these catchphrasesthat you're hearing here, I've I
posted a bunch on LinkedIn.
You know my email address.
I'm at joshuahornsteininifoscomand so anytime your listeners
want to email me, that's fine aswell, and I really appreciate
(30:57):
all of the the input.
And I really like hearing thestories of when you know, when I
connect on LinkedIn, where thesomebody says I had the same
exact experience or I had thesame you know instance where I,
you know, I couldn't figure outhow to do it and your, your post
really gave me a different wayof looking at it.
So I love to hear stories ofwhere you know, especially where
(31:21):
you kind of that that solution.
That's kind of like staring inthe face, but it took someone
else to kind of you know, pointit out to you that I love that
as well, and so I look atLinkedIn that way is someone
gives you a comment and they sayyou know, I did this, but did
you ever think about it in thisaspect?
And it's like, of course.
Why didn't I think of it thatway?
So I really like hearing frompeople on LinkedIn about their
(31:46):
stories in the workplace.
That's the best way to reach me.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Very good, I sent Joshua a connection request just
last week and we are alreadyconnected.
So there we go, listeners.
He is responsive, joshuaHornstein.
That just leaves me to say fortoday thank you very much for
being my guest.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Thank you, isbel.
Thank you, You're welcome andthank you very much.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
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Speaker 2 (00:30):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, Bill Bannum, and
joining me on the show today isJoshua Hornstein, Senior Vice
President, Chief Legal and HumanResource Officer and Corporate
Secretary over at InnoFOS.
Josh, welcome to the show today.
How are you doing?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Doing great.
Phil, Thank you for having meon.
What a treat.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Before we go any further, just a shout out to our
mutual friend, jeff Wold, whoput us in contact.
Josh, as we like to do on thisshow, why don't you start by
taking a couple of minutes andintroducing yourself to our
listeners, telling them a bitabout yourself, your passions,
your career background and whatgets you up in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Thanks, Bill.
So once again, thank you to allthe listeners.
I really appreciate being on.
As Bill mentioned, I'm a SeniorVice President of Legal and of
HR at InnoFOS, which is aphosphate company.
We are based in New Jersey,near princeton, new jersey, but
we have facilities allthroughout the world in canada,
(01:30):
us, mexico.
We have a facility in china aswell.
We have employees all over theglobe also.
We make specialty ingredientsfor all different applications,
mainly in the food industry, butalso in technical areas.
So if you go to a supermarketin the US and you go down the
middle aisles, most cases thefood in that aisle so packaged
(01:55):
good, baked good, frozen goodhas some sort of phosphates in
it.
It's either from us or one ofour competitors.
So it's a really neat business.
I've been here for about 15years, so I started out.
I'm a lawyer by training.
I started working in the legaldepartment, but I was very
ambitious and worked hard andwas promoted, and promoted, and
(02:17):
promoted until I got to the headof the legal department.
They decided I wasn't busyenough, so they put me in charge
of the HR department and thenthey put a few other departments
under me as well and it'sreally been a great time, great
experience, great developmentover these 15 years in NFS great
company, really important partof the overall you know food
(02:40):
supply and business area, and soit's it's been a really great
business.
I am more personally.
I grew up and I live outsidethe Philadelphia area, so I'm a
rabid Philadelphia sports fan.
I live in the area of I like toanalyze it to your viewers in
(03:02):
Europe or Canada it's theclosest thing I've ever seen to
an English soccer fan or Englishfootball fan Philadelphia fan
and so a big fan of PhiladelphiaPhillies and Eagles as well.
And that's a little bit aboutme.
I, like I said, I've been alawyer by training and an
executive here.
(03:22):
I worked at a few law firmsbefore coming to NFAS in 2010.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Now back to the show.
Just before we hit record, Isaid to you, Josh, I don't think
I've you know, as we wererecording this today, we're
about to hit episode 800 on theHR Chat Show, but I don't think
I've ever interviewed anyonewho's a chief legal officer and
a CHRO.
That's a couple of impressivehats to wear at the same time.
(04:05):
How has holding both of thoseroles influenced your leadership
style and your decision making?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So I usually start off with a joke about it and I
say the best part about beingthe head of legal and head of HR
is if you have a problem withlegal, go talk to the head of HR
, and if you have a problem withHR, go talk to the head of
legal.
If you have a problem with HR,go talk to the head of lead.
And so it's been a really greatexperience in blending those
two.
You know really importantfunctions and being able to draw
(04:32):
out the cross-functionalsynergies with both departments.
You know, in terms of myleadership style and you know
how I kind of run thedepartments, I found that
running both departments hasmade me better at both functions
, right.
So it actually made me a betterlawyer, it made me a better
executive, it makes me a betterleader overall for the company
(04:53):
by having that kind ofcross-function and global
experience.
There's a lot of nuance to itand a lot of complexity, but if
you're someone who enjoys thattype of work and that type of
multitasking and being able tosolve problems on different
levels and at differentperspectives, and you love
learning a different approach toa problem or a solution, this
(05:18):
is a really great role forsomeone to take on.
I really believe that havingthe legal background is so
important in the CHRO world, notbecause you want to have a
legal approach to every HR issue, but it just gives you that
confidence and the kind ofanalytical thinking that gives
you that secondary thinking ofhow you address you know an HR
(05:41):
problem.
So you know when I'm looking atcompensation I don't have to
worry about is my compensationplan legal?
I already know that.
I kind of have thatpsychological background already
to it and then I can attack thecompensation issue at hand.
So if we're regrading roles orI'm trying to make sure pay is
equitable between differentgroups, it really helps to have
(06:05):
that double cross-functionalapproach.
And then on the HR side, frombeing a lawyer, it helps you
focus your different skill sets.
So if you think about just somebasic skill sets there, so
persuading someone a lawyerlearns a way of arguing, a way
of making your case.
But having an HR perspective onit gives you a whole other
(06:29):
aspect to it.
It makes you more humanobviously.
It makes you more kind ofnarrowed down on what's really
practical and what's importantto people from a personal level.
And then it also makes you morereasonable.
You know reasonableness is oneof those skill sets I think
people always say I'm working on, or people say I always try to
(06:51):
be reasonable or try to bepractical.
But having that HR background,having that HR perspective,
where you have to deal withdifferent employees from
different parts of the US orparts of Canada or parts of
Mexico around around the worldand then have to tailor your
solutions based on that HR kindof support service, it makes you
(07:12):
such a better lawyer, makes yousuch a better executive, having
all those skill sets all in one.
So I agree, I think it's aunique skill set.
I'm always a little tickled ofhow people think it's so unique,
because it comes so naturallyto me that these two functions
should be kind of working inunison, and so I really enjoy
(07:34):
the day-to-day on this.
Every day is a new challengeand every day is something very
interesting to work on.
I've never had a day where it'sjust I'm doing the same thing
over and over.
I always find a new,interesting approach to what
we're trying to tackle here atthe company.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And let's hope that you get two pay packets, given
that you're doing two jobs.
So you helped Leeds Interfosthrough a $1 billion
publicprivate sale.
Can you now take a couple ofminutes and talk us through a
few of the HR and the legalcomplexities of that kind of
transition and your role inhelping to keep teams engaged
(08:16):
throughout that process?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
So, yeah, so, the sale of my company.
We were purchased by a privateequity firm about five years ago
.
We were a public company beforethat time, purchased by a
private equity firm about fiveyears ago.
We were a public company beforethat time period, for a long
time, or the entire portion ofmy tenure before that, and so
that transition was a veryimportant and obviously very
(08:38):
challenging transition to gothrough.
You know, having both functions, I like to say, helped
tremendously as we went throughthe aspects of that.
As the CLO or Chief LegalCounsel for the company, you
have to start from the beginning.
You're advising the CEO and theboard as you put the company up
(09:02):
for sale, as you look at withyour investment bankers and
looking at all the differentstrategic approaches to selling
a company.
So you're already in there andthat your legal training teaches
you to be inquisitive, thinkabout what aspects of the sale
are gonna be challenges or whatare the opportunities there, and
so you're always looking forthe kind of the risks and the
(09:26):
operational.
How do you get it done?
How do you get the results goout and announce the sale?
How do you work on theagreements?
How do you do the diligence?
You know all of those issues.
The hr part of it gives youthat human aspect to it.
So you know what's going tohappen with the executives on
their comp.
You, you know exactly what'sgoing to happen with the
(09:47):
employees.
You, you know where thechallenges would be for a buyer
of uh.
You know what, how theemployees would react to a sale
of the company.
And so having all of that kindof focus together in that one
role, it's like a one-stop shop.
It makes you more efficient,makes you more valuable to the
company.
As you go through that, I usedto, I like to say, with the CEOs
(10:10):
and the boards that I've workedwith, I think they like just
having one person to talk to.
Nobody wants to have an extrameeting if they don't have to,
right?
You can just talk to me aboutthe legal and the HR issues and
we can focus very clearly onwhat needs to get done right.
And so having that role reallyhelped as we were getting to
(10:33):
sell the company and thentransition to the new buyers.
And I think the greatestevidence of that is, you know,
for me personally is how I'vebeen with the company through
multiple transitions like this.
I'm working with my third CEOsince I've been at Interfas, you
know, with a different boardthrough the transition
(10:56):
transition, and so I've reallybeen able to leverage that kind
of expertise with multipledifferent stakeholders and then
be able to find what they neededand answer and solve their
solutions, as opposed to justbeing kind of rigid and this is
what we do and there's nochanging it right.
Having that cross-functionalapproach teaches you you have to
be nimble, you have to becreative, you have to understand
(11:17):
what your stakeholders want andsolve their problem, not your
problem and so find the solutionthat they're looking for, even
if you think it may not be theright approach for the company,
but persuading them that theyneed to change their approach a
little bit, but then also beopen to I need to think about it
in a different way, because thenew stakeholder has a new
approach that they want to takethe company and so you have to
(11:40):
really be nimble.
And that cross-functional CHROChief Legal Officer really gives
you kind of the footing and thebackground for that you do.
A foundation for how youapproach that you know whatever
the challenge is, it's your sidefoundation for how you put.
That you know whatever thechallenge is.
As you're signing up, I'm happyto say we did.
(12:03):
I think we did a very goodtransition in terms of moving
the company from a public to aprivate.
It was a very successful saleof the company the company that
owns us now.
I think we've done a great jobof keeping the business going
forward and improving thebusiness, and so that's the best
evidence of doing a great job,of keeping the business going
forward and improving thebusiness, and so that's the best
evidence of doing a good job ona transition is that the
company keeps moving forwardduring that transition and, you
(12:24):
know, even through differentexecutives or different employee
groups and different strategiesfor the business, we've been
able to really run thissuccessful business through all
of those transitions.
Having that dual CHRO chieflegal officer really is
invaluable in those types ofbusinesses.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Okay, thank you.
I think you said in your answerthere that you have had three
different CEOs during your nineyears during your tenure at the
company.
Um, I often talk to folks onthis show uh, very senior hr
leaders who say, bill, it's hardto be heard at the top levels,
(13:03):
it's hard to get a seat at thetable, so to speak.
Do you find, josh, becauseyou've got this dual role, this
legal aspect to you, as well asa more more traditional HR piece
, that actually is easier to beheard at the top table?
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean just from a basic.
You know, quantity perspectiveright, I bring more to the table
.
When I'm talking to a CEO,right, I bring the legal
expertise and I bring the CHROexpertise right, I bring the you
know, over time now I've alsobring the institutional
expertise right.
So if you think about it fromthe CEO perspective or from the
(13:42):
board perspective, when you'retalking to me and I have both
these roles, I'm like a fountainof information, right, I'm a
fountain of what the company isdoing.
And then as you work with meand as you engage with me and
you see how I try and meld, youknow, a practical solution
between both departments and Ireally do not the.
They love hearing that you cankind of meld the problem, find
(14:05):
the solution, get it doneefficiently and know what you're
talking about right.
And that's the, that's thebeauty of these roles, right,
(14:26):
you can if you do it right, ifyou put in the hard work to
learn the different functions,if you are challenging all of
your counterparts and yourcolleagues and what they're
doing and bring your expertiseto the table.
It's a really nice thing towatch With the different CEOs.
I think it's one of the reasonsI've lasted through all of these
(14:50):
different transitions isbecause it's different
personalities.
It's different strategictransitions is because you know
it's different personalities.
It's different strategicvisions for the company, right,
and that's all good stuff.
Um, you know, a ceo always hastheir strengths and their
weaknesses, right.
Just like you know, I have mystrengths and my weaknesses.
But being able as a chro and achief legal officer to bring the
(15:12):
information start out out, I'ma great resource.
Then working with them, askingthem what they want to do and
trying to figure out how myexpertise and my information
sources help them get to wherethey need to get to, and then
having that you know backgroundof having to deal with all these
cross-functional problems andthey can see right away that I
try and find a cross-functional,reasonable solution.
(15:34):
I don't pretend to have all theanswers and that's kind of what
you learn when you take bothroles right.
You have to be humble,especially as a lawyer who is
trained to kind of have allthose answers right.
You're supposed to know the lawinside and out.
You're supposed to, you know,be kind of give that gravitas to
the role.
When you take on the other roleof a CHRO, you have to be a
(15:54):
little bit humble in saying Ineed to learn what benefits is.
I need to learn what comp isright.
I need to.
You know, see what my HRSsystem.
I can't just be a user of it, Ihave to be an expert on it,
right, or know enough about itto be able to weigh in on these
topics.
But once you get past that kindof learning curve in the
beginning, you really bring avaluable resource right.
(16:16):
It's, you know, having all thatexpertise and just being able to
talk to that one person kind ofputs the CEO at ease.
They have lots of challenges todeal with the CEO to begin with
, right, they have to come inand set a vision for the company
.
They're responsible for theresults.
You know that's the personwho's ultimately responsible for
seeing the company.
They do not want to spend tonsand tons of time trying to
(16:37):
figure out the legal and the HRissues.
They are important.
They want to make sure they getdone.
But they want to learn.
They want to focus on thecommercial aspects or the
operational aspects and knowthat you're there to help them
(16:58):
and be strategic in yoursolutions.
It's just there.
It's a great thing to watch,right?
I can't I don't pretend to saythat it's easy.
Right, it's, it's a.
You have to put in the hardwork.
You have to, you know, reallychallenge yourself, and then you
have to be willing to failevery once in a while.
You know, make a bad decisionbecause you took some risk.
(17:18):
But even when you fail, if youpresent it in a way of this is
where I was trying to get to Irealized I made that wrong turn.
But I realized it's so muchquicker because I had both
departments, whereas if you onlyhave one department, you may
not realize you made a bad turnfor twice as long.
It helps you head it off at thepass.
Have one department, you maynot realize you made a bad turn
for, you know, twice as long,right, it helps you head it off
(17:40):
at the pass.
One of my favorite sayings Iactually learned it from our
environmental teams over theyears is you know, taking, you
know or finding out what yourreasonable worst case scenarios
are, as opposed to your worstcase scenarios.
Right, everybody knows wherethe worst case scenario is.
You can talk about all thetremendous things that can go
wrong, right.
But if you can narrow that downto what's the reasonable worst
case, right.
So you can kind of set theguardrails on what your, your
(18:03):
decision making is.
That's so much more valuablethan saying, oh, if the world
came to an end, here's whatwould happen if we made this
decision.
If you can give them that like,here's the 80 or 90% chance of
what's going to happen, and thenhere's the 10 or 20%, but
that's not reasonable.
What's within the 80 or 90 isthe reasonable.
Ceos love that, in my opinion.
(18:24):
They love hearing what's theirguard wells and how do you keep
minimizing and bringing thatrisk profile down, but not in a
way where you try and eliminatethe risk, which is impossible.
So I could go on and on, bill.
There are so many differentaspects to how you can address
that, but I think the maintakeaway from this is you start
(18:49):
with you have a greatinformation resource because you
know all the departments.
You've learned from runningthese departments.
You get that foundation ofreadjusting your thinking, your
approach.
Your decision-making becomesbetter.
You get better answers, bettersolutions, and then you present
your board or your executiveteam with I want to do what you
(19:09):
want to do and I'm trying to getyou there.
And I'm trying to get you there, and because I have this
knowledge and because I havethis practical approach, even
when I say we can't quite do itthe way you want to do it, but
we can do it a little bitdifferent, I you know, eight
times out of 10, nine times outof 10, I can persuade them that
this little tweak to whatthey're doing makes it so much
better.
And that's, you know, again,that's the sweet spot, that's,
(19:32):
that's, that's the fun in thejob.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I love that.
So work hard, but also have thehumility to recognize that
you're not going to geteverything perfect every time.
But show people that you areworking towards that and you'll
rise up the ladder and you'll bea success.
There we go, hey.
Sometimes in these episodes Ilike to switch things up and I
(19:58):
like to challenge people.
I'm going to do that right now.
I'm going to ask you, in 60seconds or less, Josh, to give
us some insights around the factthat you've revamped HR systems
worldwide, from HIS to payrollto compensation.
In your previous answer, youmentioned that you had to become
an expert in HRS, for example.
In 60 seconds or less, Josh,what advice do you have for
(20:21):
other senior HR leaders outthere taking on large scale
systems transformations?
Go?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
I would say two things.
First is plan.
You know you have to do theprep work when you're
integrating or creating a newsystem.
And then the second part ispart of that humility you have
to recognize that it's nevergoing to go 100 percent to plan
Right.
So you need to prepare, notjust how you're going to do it
and every step in the process.
You need to prepare that one ofthose steps is not going to
(20:49):
come out exactly how you want it.
So if you prepare on bothaspects and then you are ready
for the challenge, even for thethings you have no idea what's
going to come up, thatunexpected challenge that is how
you will get, you will have themost success in creating a
system.
Back to the pivot on what wewere talking about.
When you come and take on a newfunction, like I did, I had to
(21:12):
prep, I did the best I could,but then I also had to be
prepared.
I didn't know everything Ineeded to know, or I didn't know
it from the beginning.
So I had to prepare and be ableto not fall, you know, not go
to pieces when that unexpectedcomes up.
I think that was under a minute.
Did I make it?
I think so.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I think you did.
You just made that very goodwork.
Okay, let's talk about ESGenvironmental, social and
governance.
That's becoming a key focusarea for many organizations, and
rightfully so, in my opinion.
What inspired you, josh, tocreate and lead the ESG function
over at InnoVoss, and what havebeen your biggest learnings so
(21:54):
far?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
So I think one of the things when you take on the
CHRO and the chief legal officerrole or this multi, you kind of
people start to think of you as, oh, he can do this next
department or he can do thisnext initiative, which is a
really good thing, but it alsois you know, oh, how am I going
to run?
How am I going to create an ESGfunction?
I got that role sort of thesame way here.
(22:17):
Somebody had to do it.
I was a logical choice becauseI had done a lot of this
cross-functional and, to befrank, a lot of our other
executives are tied up on otherthings, so I stepped in to help
them so that I could manage this.
I have to rely on them for alot of the work that goes on
with ESG.
But, being in a company my size, we have 1,500 employees.
(22:38):
We are not a 30,000-employeeorganization, but we're not a
small organization, so we haveto prioritize our resources and
prioritize our approach, whichis the best thing I think about
how we run ESG and Interfos iswe are committed to making
things better for our employees,making our company the best it
(22:59):
can be and, you know, drivingour core values, but at the same
time, we have to prioritize andwe have to be practical.
We don't just do ESG for ESGsake.
We do it in a way that reallyhelps the company.
We try and find ESG solutionsthat actually improve the
company's performance.
That you know, we don't just do.
You know, if we have 10different ESG options, we don't
(23:20):
pick all 10 of them just becausethat's what ESG wants.
We take the ones that reallyhelp the company and then the
ones we can't.
We are humble about there'scertain things we can do and
there's certain things we can't,and I really think the ESG
world is going through that kindof transition right now.
There's the you know, the focuson things that are important.
You know making sure you treatyour employees with respect.
(23:40):
Make sure you everybody isgiven a fair shake.
You know you pay everybodycorrectly.
Try and treat you knoweverybody how they would want to
be treated right.
That's a very important goaland there's no one solution to
that and I think that's what'sgreat about what's going on in
the ESG world now is they'rehaving to come up with.
There's lots of ways to treatan employee with respect.
(24:02):
There's not just one way,there's not just one policy,
there's not just one approach totreating your employees with
respect, and so the same thingwith environmental and with
governance.
Governance you have to beethical and you have to be good
stewards of the company, but youdon't have to just do this one
policy.
This is the only way to dogovernance right.
(24:23):
We have to find lots ofdifferent solutions and I love
doing that from thatcross-functional approach.
So I you know, I love being incharge of the ESG group, but not
because I'm a huge ESGevangelist.
I love it because it helps meget to a business solution
sometimes and it helps me feelgood about I'm really helping
(24:43):
the employees, I'm helping ourstakeholders and I'm not losing
focus on the company has to makemoney.
You can't do ESG and then havethe company not make money.
Right, you have to find thesolution to both at the same
time.
If you don't, you don't have acompany, you have no ESG because
you don't have a company to run.
Same time, if you don't, youdon't have a, you have no ESG
because you don't have a companyto run.
So you have to take thatpractical approach.
(25:04):
You know, I stole a line fromour commercial team and our our
company, some of our boardmembers early on is you know you
come with a, with any type ofsolution it's not just ESG and
they say you know, you presentwhat you're doing and then the
response is that's great, whenwill it make us money?
Right, and so I love thatresponse because it just helps
(25:24):
you focus at the end of the day,like, we want to help the
environment and we want to doright, but we also have to make
sure the company makes money.
So and I refuse to believe youcan't do both right, you can't
be a good environmental stewardand also make money Right
environmental steward and alsomake money right.
But it's not easy sometimes.
You have to really work hard atit.
You can't just say I'm justgoing to do this for
environmental sake or forgovernance sake, right, you have
(25:46):
to really think about it andwork hard.
And then you have to rememberat the end of the day, we have
to make money.
So I love that transition that Ifeel is going on with the ESG
world today and I love how I gotto be in charge of it is yeah,
I was the only guy really thathad the time and could do it, or
you know they assigned it to,but you know, our whole ESG team
(26:08):
is a cross-functional approach.
Nobody really is, you know, incharge of ESG.
We all work together and I tryand lead the team just to make
sure we stay on track and getwhat we need to get done.
So again, another great exampleof where you can just you can
solve a problem, you know andyou can do.
You get that 80% or 90%solution if you just, you know,
(26:30):
start from a differentperspective as you're embarking
on the task.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
And to be open to taking on new challenges, which
it sounds like you are.
We are already coming towardsthe end of this particular
conversation, josh, so I'm justgoing to have to get you on
again in the future, because Ihad a whole bunch of other
questions.
Just two more for you today, ifyou don't mind.
The next one, let's talk aboutmentorship.
Mentorship is something thatyou're passionate about,
(26:56):
particularly through your workwith Women Unlimited.
Passionate about particularlythrough your work with Women
Unlimited, josh.
Why is mentorship important toyou and what role does it play
in your leadership philosophy?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Well, mentorship's important to me.
One just because I've had somepretty good mentors during my
career.
I you know, when I was firststarting as a lawyer, I had a
really great mentor who helpedme focus on just looking at a
contract.
And he not to belabor the story, but he helped me just identify
.
The first thing he asked me iswhat's the most important thing
(27:30):
in a contract?
And I remember saying, oh, it'sall these legal provisions.
And he said, no, it's the price.
Stupid.
He said if you don't get thatright in the contract, your
client doesn't care what therest of the contract says.
Right, and it's not just aboutputting the right number in the
contract not to get too far inthe weeds, but there's all the
language around the price andhow it's calculated, how the
(27:51):
defined terms in the contract,right.
So I remember that mentor mywhole career.
I've been a lawyer for 22 yearsnow and so I keep that in the
back of my mind and it appliesto different aspects as well.
So when I had the opportunityto work with Women Unlimited, I
thought it was.
It's just amazing.
I've always found that being amentor, I actually get more.
(28:12):
I get more out of it than thementees right and I learn about
them.
I learn what they're doing andI've been able to apply that
here at Interfax.
We have a mentor program here atInterfax, but one of the unique
programs I think that we puttogether is I put together, we
call it our English Spanishbuddy program and basically all
(28:33):
it is is we have a lot ofemployees in Mexico, we have a
lot of employees in the US andCanada in Mexico, we have a lot
of employees in the US andCanada, and so what?
We?
We have a lot of employees inboth areas that are trying to
learn English or trying to learnSpanish, and all we did was
just pair.
We set up a program where wepair a US employee or a Canadian
employee with an employee inMexico and both of them teach
(28:54):
each other the language rightand not unlike a formalistic
kind of curriculum, they justhave conversations and just talk
to each other about differentinstances where they're working
together with you know somebodyfrom you know different parts of
the world at the company andthey just learn so they may talk
about.
(29:14):
Well, I'm in this, you know,budget meeting, and we keep
talking about this one term andI can't quite figure out the
right way to say it in Englishthat I want you to cut costs or
I want you to economize there,and that English person or the
US or Canadian employee helpsthe Spanish get out of the
awkward phrasing and they justtalk to them about it.
(29:37):
It's a low cost, it doesn't costus really anything.
We put the employees together,the employees develop a
friendship and a and a you know,a new perspective on on
learning the language and at thesame time, I think it helps the
business because you learn moreabout what the other employee
is doing right, just indirectly,by helping them on their
language skills.
So I think that's a greatexample where mentoring has
(29:59):
multiple benefits and that's why, as you can tell, I'm pretty
passionate about, you know,helping and mentoring as much as
we can.
Uh, we always need to do more,um, and I, you know I always
need to do more of the mentoringor uh, but uh, I really think
it's a.
It's a great way to help.
So, just in all aspects, yourcareer development and the
business as well excellent.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Excellent, and just finally for today, josh, how can
our listeners connect with youand learn more about what you're
getting up to?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool all overTikTok and Instagram and places?
Tell us more.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
So I am.
I'm limited to LinkedIn, so Ipost a bunch on LinkedIn.
I some of these catchphrasesthat you're hearing here, I've I
posted a bunch on LinkedIn, soI post a bunch on LinkedIn.
I some of these catchphrasesthat you're hearing here, I've I
posted a bunch on LinkedIn.
You know my email address.
I'm at joshuahornsteininifoscomand so anytime your listeners
want to email me, that's fine aswell, and I really appreciate
(30:57):
all of the the input.
And I really like hearing thestories of when you know, when I
connect on LinkedIn, where thesomebody says I had the same
exact experience or I had thesame you know instance where I,
you know, I couldn't figure outhow to do it and your, your post
really gave me a different wayof looking at it.
So I love to hear stories ofwhere you know, especially where
(31:21):
you kind of that that solution.
That's kind of like staring inthe face, but it took someone
else to kind of you know, pointit out to you that I love that
as well, and so I look atLinkedIn that way is someone
gives you a comment and they sayyou know, I did this, but did
you ever think about it in thisaspect?
And it's like, of course.
Why didn't I think of it thatway?
So I really like hearing frompeople on LinkedIn about their
(31:46):
stories in the workplace.
That's the best way to reach me.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Very good, I sent Joshua a connection request just
last week and we are alreadyconnected.
So there we go, listeners.
He is responsive, joshuaHornstein.
That just leaves me to say fortoday thank you very much for
being my guest.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Thank you, isbel.
Thank you, You're welcome andthank you very much.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
And listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
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