From Learning To Measurable Enablement in the Age of AI with Rob Rosenthal, Udemy Business

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
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SPEAKER_03 (00:25):
Hello and thanks for tuning in to this episode of the
HR Chat Podcast.
I'm your host today, BillBannham, and in this episode,
we're going to dive into one ofthe biggest shifts shaping the
modern workplace.
How learning is being redefinedin an age of AI, hybrid work,
and constant skills disruption.
Upskilling isn't just a nice tohave anymore, it's a business

(00:49):
critical.
To help us unpack howorganizations can stay ahead,
I'm thrilled to be joined todayby Rob Rossenthal, president
over at Udemy Business.
Rob stepped into the role lastyear after serving as chief
revenue officer, and he bringsover 25 years of experience
driving global growth andtransformation at companies like

(01:10):
Bloomreach, Adobe, and SAP.
Rob spent his career at theintersection of tech learning
and performance, helping teamsadapt faster and leaders make
smarter, data-driven decisionsabout talent development.
Listen as we explore howlearning is evolving, what's
next for LD in the world of AI,and how Udemy is helping

(01:33):
thousands of organizations turnlearning into a true growth
engine.
Rob, how are you doing?
Welcome to the show today.

SPEAKER_01 (01:42):
Thanks, Bill.
Doing great.
Really looking forward to ourconversation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47):
Me too, me too.
So beyond the reintroductionjust a moment ago, maybe you can
take a minute or two, please,Rob, and introduce yourself to
our listeners and tell them alsoabout the mission of Udemy.

SPEAKER_01 (01:59):
Yeah, so uh based in Denver, Colorado, uh my my
career has been on uhtransformation of one flavor or
another.
And uh in most cases that'smeant um digital transformation
and tech uh companies like Adobeand SAP.
And this is the first time thatI've really been on the people

(02:20):
side of the business uh andlearning and enablement.
And uh I'll just say I I kind ofknew we weren't doing a great
job as uh tech providers on theenablement side of the equation.
Now that I am on this side, uh Ican confirm that we really
haven't been doing a great job.
And it's it's just such a bigopportunity.
So I'm I'm thrilled to be atUdemy and uh helping to helping

(02:44):
to transform people, not tech.

SPEAKER_03 (02:48):
Okay, we've come to the right place because we love
talking about people and peopleprocesses.
So Udemy hosted the ForwardLondon event uh last week as we
record this in the middle ofNovember 2025.
Tell me about the event seriesbecause it's not just in London,
is it?
It's all over the world.
Uh, and some of the thehighlights from the London
edition for you.

SPEAKER_01 (03:08):
Yeah, the forward event is really important to us.
We know that um, you know,people like to come together and
and uh trade best practices andlearning people in particular,
it's it's I've really observedhow they like to come together.
And uh we we did just that uhlast week.
It was an amazing event, it wasuh quite well attended, much
larger than the prior year,which we held in the Gherkin.

(03:29):
We we outgrew the Gherkin and uhwe had several hundred people.
And I think the um everyone uhof course, of course, everyone's
talking about AI, right?
And uh the the buzz in the roomreally was um, you know, okay,
we've been through the firstwave to try an AI enablement.
How'd that go?
Where's this thing going?
And what does it mean uh for thelearning and development

(03:52):
professional or even the thehead of people?
What where's this, you know,what what are the implications?
So we are doing this all overthe world, and we are quite a
global company.
60% of our revenue comes fromoutside the US.
So it's really important to getout there and see what these
themes are all over the world.
I can I can confirm that youknow it's a similar story uh in

(04:14):
different regions where peopleare wrestling with the same
thing.
They might be by industry alittle um more advanced or or
lagging, but it's the sameconversation.

SPEAKER_02 (04:25):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazette.com.
And now back to the show.

SPEAKER_03 (04:42):
Okay, so we are about two minutes into this
particular episode of the HRTrack Show listeners, and
already we are talking about AI.
You can't get away from AI, andlet's talk about it even more
now.
Uh, I'd I'd love to get yourfeelings, Rob, you in terms of
your experience.
How have you seen the role oflearning and development evolve
within organizations over thepast few years, specifically in

(05:04):
the context of ways that AI hasimpacted it?

SPEAKER_01 (05:08):
Well, well, given that my tenure here is uh you
know not even quite two years, Ican tell you it has changed a
lot since I started at Udemy.
And uh the the key change is uhthere's a spotlight on LND right
now.
And that spotlight is uh thisthe CEO and the board understand
that uh LND can be quitestrategic, and and they have

(05:31):
been given this mandate toenable the team on AI, typically
a dual mandate.
Uh I'm experiencing it's notjust LND, but they have another
stakeholder.
It could be the CTO or chief AIofficer or whatever it is, and
this is in the larger companies,the enterprise.
So LD has to has no choice butto get really comfortable with

(05:53):
what the business outcomes areof this learning and enablement
that they're doing.
And um that that's where I thinkthe the biggest challenge is is
to prove the business value.
And uh it's a org-wide challengein the topic of AI, but L and D
has to has to really um helphelp everyone see the value.

SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
We'll talk about it a bit more in my next question
for you, but um uh in a when I'mwearing another hat, I'm on the
board of a of an L and D uhnetwork of about 500 L and D
professionals here in the UK,Rob.
Uh and uh I frequently hear fromthem that uh it shouldn't be HR
taking their case to the toptable, it should be LD

(06:37):
professionals.
Just want to get your take onthat.

SPEAKER_01 (06:40):
Yeah, the uh it's how you look at learning um in
general, right?
So I completely agree with it.
And uh I actually am not a bigfan of the word learning.
Uh learning, so it's in thetitle, but I don't like the
word.
Uh it's like, you know, carrots,it's vegetables, it's nice, but
um it can be ignored.

(07:01):
And uh we're in an era now wherethat's not the case, cannot be
ignored.
So I actually think the LDperson, I think Udemy uh itself,
we're we're really in thebusiness of enabling the
workforce.
Um, so it's workforce readinessand ultimately workforce
performance.
So I don't see L and D as LD, Isee it as workforce performance.

(07:21):
And if the the LD stakeholderschange their title and start
lining up against workforceperformance, they'll they'll uh
I think that that's where thisis all going.

SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
What are some of the biggest barriers the companies
face when trying to create astrong learning culture?
And and how can how can how canHR leaders help to overcome
them?

SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Yeah, Bill, it's similar to what I just said
prior, which is if it's aboutlearning and it's considered a
vegetable, the the barrier is noone's gonna do it because it's
it's not as clear what thebenefit is, and there's no cost
of inaction.
If I don't eat my carrots,nothing bad happens, right?
So the the reality though is umthe it needs exec sponsorship.

(08:09):
So I I would change the word oflearning to enablement.
Enablement is more of a businessterm, and uh enablement has real
ROI, real outcomes.
I uh the C-suite must getinvolved.
If any of this stuff is reallygoing to matter, uh the C-suite
has to help uh push.
It has to be a top priority forthe company.
So um I but I do believe thatthe majority of LD professionals

(08:33):
out there are being asked rightnow by the C-suite to go figure
out AI and enable everyone onit.
LD has to ask in return, great,we'll do that, but uh you have
to sign up for exec sponsorshippromotion, and you actually have
to be the first one to gothrough the program.
And uh that that that willovercome this obstacle of
inertia.

(08:54):
That's the obstacle.

SPEAKER_03 (08:55):
Okay, so you've just addressed the why.
But what about the how, Rob?
How can organizations bettermeasure that ROI or business
impact of their of their LD,their engagement initiatives?
Um what are some what are someapproaches there?

SPEAKER_01 (09:11):
Yeah, so this has always been the hardest part uh
is measuring uh the ROI and thebusiness outcomes.
There's no one way to do it, soit's it's multi-flavor,
multi-threaded.
Uh engagement is part of it.
So I do often see in the officeof a chief people officer, often
they'll bring us in because someemployee survey showed that

(09:32):
engagement was off.
They want to invest in theirpeople.
Uh, investing in something likeUdemy is a good way to do that.
So you can do a pre andpost-engagement, that's just
part of it.
Um, uh we like to look atassessments.
Uh, and let's take AI as therelevant example.
Uh, let's do an assessment uh oneveryone uh pre-enablement.

(09:53):
Uh let's run the enablement andthen let's do a post-assessment
uh and use you know differenttools and techniques.
We have assessment capabilities,and there are other ways to do
it as well.
But let's let's show what whatskills were gained and then you
know how can we quantify abusiness value to those skills.
In many of our um customerbases, I'll give you a real easy

(10:14):
one in professional services,which is an industry we serve,
it's a big chunk of our customerbase, it's a very clear ROI.
Because if someone has gained askill, then they're then uh more
valuable to their end customer.
They can bill more per hour orthey can fill a job that goes
unfilled.
So the this um the ROI is blackand white, but it's not always

(10:37):
that clean.
Uh often there are gray areas.
We actually have invested inresources called value engineers
that we we uh provide.
We deploy these value engineersto our customers to help them
map out the ROI because it is abit of a consulting project, uh,
and then ultimately be able toarticulate and defend the ROI to
the C-suite and the board.

(10:58):
So that that's how um howimportant it is to us, and we're
right in the boat with our LNDand people stakeholders.

SPEAKER_03 (11:06):
Rob, we are living in a world where AI is rapidly
replacing us or augmenting usand uh making us think about new
ways to work.
Uh as you as you look ahead fromyour perspective, which skills,
technical or otherwise, are mostcritical for employees to thrive
in in the future workplace?

SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah, I uh I do have a strong point of view.
I have a personal point of view,but also what we see in the
data.
Uh obviously, we can see whatwhat skills are are are um are
trending and peaking right now.
So uh take AI aside, right?
AI can be quite noisy.
There are some things that willalways be needed, no matter the
AI flavor of choice or whateverthe wave is 10 years from now.

(11:49):
Things like communicationskills, things like uh change
management, um, things likedealing with adversity.
Uh, these are these arecritical.
The the younger generationreally values communication
skills right now.
So the younger generationentering the workforce, uh, and
we we have to serve them.
Um I personally am big onleadership skills.

(12:11):
I also think um uh as crazy asthis sounds, uh writing skills
and even handwriting capabilityuh is important.
So um, because you have to gothe other way from AI to be
relevant as well and stand outand differentiate.
You know, what what can whatcannot chat GPT not replace?

(12:33):
A handwritten note is oneexample.
So uh that's an example I'veI've seen in my network that I
completely agree with.
Uh we should lean into thethings that um aren't AI and
develop those skills to sayabout stay balanced.

SPEAKER_03 (12:46):
So Udemy works with thousands of organizations
around the world.
Uh you guys are a prettywell-known brand.
Uh, what are some of theemerging trends that you're
seeing in how global companiesare approaching skills
development and continuouslearning?
Any particular use cases thatyou'd like to highlight?
You mentioned professionalservices as a sector earlier,
but you know, are there arethere some particular use cases

(13:08):
that you can point to?

SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Uh yeah, in in um professional services, but
others as well, it's uh it'sit's how do you ramp uh how do
you ramp an employee quickly tomeet a need?
So in professional services, umwe've heard the term skill to
fill, and uh it's exactly this.
How do you um quickly enable askill to go fill a role?

(13:33):
We actually eat our ownchocolate, drink our own
champagne at Udemy.
I do run a global go-to-marketfunction.
Uh, sales enablement iscritical.
So we use Udemy, both ourplatform, our course content,
uh, our instructors.
We hired one of our instructorsto help enable our folks.
We use things like AI role playand assessments, all things we

(13:56):
provide, to ramp a newly hiredsales rep to be more productive
faster.
We've reduced the amount of timeit takes in the last year.
We've reduced by 30% the amountof time it takes for an AE
account executive to becomeproductive.
In the future, you'll see usdoing more and more of this line

(14:16):
of business, truly enablement,uh, you know, not just learning,
to have real tangible outcomeslike 30% uh faster time to be
productive.
That's um that's where our focusis right now.
It's a trend I'm seeingeverywhere.
So it's uh, you know, how do wemove into the line of business?
Uh it is interesting.
LD, while in a big organization,yes, there might be a chief

(14:39):
learning officer and it'scentralized.
There's also uh learning inevery line of business within
the big organization.
And uh they have differentnames.
Some of them are enablement,some of them are learning, some
of them are transformation, butuh every everyone's after the
same goal.
It is how do I get uh a quickwin with ROI that's quite clear

(15:01):
and measurable, like I justarticulated that we have.
Uh my board wants to know how amI ramping our reps?
Uh well, we have a program andwe'll share it with our
customers uh and our ourpartners and other stakeholders.
Here's how we do it, and we'dlike to learn from you and and
build enablement with youtogether.

SPEAKER_03 (15:20):
Okay, so that 30% that's that's pretty impressive.
How much of that is uh improvedlearning techniques and training
techniques?
And how much of it is is isimproved technology that's now
available to automate so many ofthe sales-related processes that
that were more manual only acouple of years ago?

SPEAKER_01 (15:40):
It's it's mostly not technology.
Uh, there is some tech in itthough that I'll I will talk
about, but it's mostly uh havinga um a system for learning.
So we we actually look at it asa skills operating system.
It starts with discovery of uhwhich what skills, you know.
Hey, we for example, um I needsomeone to be a really good

(16:04):
consultative seller, or theyneed to really understand how to
do value-based engagement.
So, where are they today?
Let's do an assess assessment.
Where are the gaps?
What how can we um partner withthis uh employee to fill those
gaps?
So we call that skills discoveryand then skills acquisition,
right?
Uh, we we provide the learningpaths.

(16:25):
They're uh not just online, someof it's in person, some of it's
cohort.
And uh, how do we you knowdeliver the training?
So you get you acquire theskill, and then the skills uh
the term in in our industry isskills mastery, but really it's
just practice.
How do we practice the skills?
That's where the tech comes in.
So things like AI role play, Ican tell you these this is not

(16:48):
this is pretty new to the scene.
Uh AI coaching, AI role play.
Uh look, a year and a half ago,you would take an online course,
you might learn a few things andyou apply it in, you know, while
you while you're in the flow ofwork, you can apply a learning.
Um, however, now that you haveAI-based role play and you can
custom design a role play for aspecific use case.

(17:11):
For example, um, I'm telling ourstory to a new client and uh I
want to deliver uh kind of thethe gen one for you know level
one presentation.
I want to make be sure I ask theright questions in the right
order.
Well, uh you can program the AIroleplay or the AI coach to to

(17:31):
to really do this and be thesounding board for for the rep
or the employee, and it reallydoes stick.
And if you get it wrong, youknow, they'll let you know and
uh and and reframe it and askyou to to try it a different way
and maybe give you some tips.
So this interactive,voice-based, right?
You're not it's not hands-onkeyboard, you're talking to the

(17:52):
role play.
That makes a difference.
And uh it there's the safety ofdoing it uh by in your own
contained environment.
There's no embarrassment factor.
This kind of thing is reallychanging uh how learning
happens.
And uh, you know, over time thiswill become more of a more of a
tutor to help you teach theskill, be sitting on your
shoulder, and uh and reallyhelping you practice and develop

(18:14):
the skills.
So that that's what we're seeingthat's different now.
It's quite different than when Istarted, the tech didn't even
exist.

SPEAKER_03 (18:21):
I I wonder what where does where does the HR
department fit in with that inin terms of ensuring that uh
with the example that you justused there in terms of the AI
agent, um ensuring that there'sno inherent biases, making sure
that those assessments arecorrect and valid.
How can we ensure there's stilla human element, which is a

(18:43):
concern, I think, for a lot ofHR leaders?
How can we make sure that thehuman touch is still in the
right places?

SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
It's such a good question, Bill.
We recently had an exec advisorycouncil.
We got some of our key customerstogether that are LD
professionals from around theworld and around industries.
And they saw, they said thenumber one thing is human in the
loop.
And uh so they they had a coupleexamples, but they would like us

(19:12):
to help them with cohort-basededucation uh and make sure that
there's a human facilitating uhAI safety, I hear all the time.
So it's not just, hey, can yougive me some AI enablement?
No, it's it's you know, are wedoing this in a way that um uh
is thoughtful, is uh uhcompliant with rules and

(19:33):
regulations, or what they'regonna be?
Can we get in front of this?
So just what like you say, Bill,very top of mind.
Human in the loop is a big, bigdeal.

SPEAKER_03 (19:42):
Rob, we're flying through our questions for you
today, just two more.
Uh as you look ahead to 2026 andbeyond, what's next for Udemy
business and uh what are yourpriorities to helping
organizations stay competitivethrough learning?

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Yeah, look, we're um we're innovating like crazy
right now.
We've uh been spending a lot ofmoney on the on uh new new
technology.
So we've taken uh the AI toolkitand the techniques and applied
it to everything we do.
What that means is this conceptthat we've all we've all heard
of learning and the flow of workin 2026, it really does show up

(20:17):
uh in a real way.
And it's a personalizedlearning, bite-sized learning.
I'll give you an example thatwe're really proud of.
We were the first in in ourmarket to ship um MCP, model
context protocol integration.
It's a fancy way of saying thatwe can work with any
organization's um uh AI strategyif they if they're using their

(20:39):
own LLM uh to help theiremployees learn.
Well, uh that LLM can talkdirectly to Udemy to help uh
show up in a in a you know in ain a compact way.
When someone's stuck, uh, youknow, maybe I'm uh trying to
write some code and uh I needsome help and I use my own LLM

(20:59):
within the org, it can go talkto Udemy, find the relevant um
area to surface and present itback to the employee, and they
can solve that problem on thespot.
Or if someone needs, you know,I'm a I'm a generalist, I'm not
a technologist, and I'm gonnaneed to have a tough
conversation with an employee.
I can ask my own LLM within thecompany, uh, you know, help me

(21:21):
figure this out, and it will itwill maybe ask a question or two
and go go ping you to me andbring you that knowledge in the
flow of work and see if ithelped.
So this kind of uhinteractivity, uh leveraging AI
tools will will be huge uh nextyear.
So I I think this um the pace ofchange is is crazy right now.

(21:43):
Uh all we can do is keep up withthe the integration to the best
techniques, that's what we'redoing, and making sure that the
the learning in the flow of workshows up so that you use it on a
daily basis.
It should be like a fitnessroutine, it's not an occasional
learning, right?
It's um it's not learning bychance, it's being ready to
learn at all times and thenpracticing it daily in the flow

(22:07):
of work.
That's enablement.
That's that's that's when youget the business outcome.
It's no longer a vegetable.

SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
Okay, and just finally for today, Rob, how can
our listeners connect with you?
Is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overthe socials?
And of course, how can folkslearn more about Udemy?

SPEAKER_01 (22:26):
Yeah, I'm easy to find on uh LinkedIn.
Uh just look up Rob Rosenthalplus plus Udemy, you'll find me.
Uh, that is a great way to reachout to me directly, either
follow me or connect with me.
And uh I do I do check my uhLinkedIn messaging, have found
uh many customers actually uhinteracting through that
channel.
So that's the that's the bestway.

(22:48):
And Bill, what was your secondquestion?
How can folks learn more aboutUdemy?
Oh, and of course Udemy is uh wedo have uh quite a following on
LinkedIn for uh Udemy itself asa brand, but also Udemy for
business.
So we we a third of our businessis is the marketplace, which is
business to consumer, andtwo-thirds is Udemy Business.

(23:09):
Um, we have both flavors onLinkedIn, or you can go to
udemy.com.

SPEAKER_03 (23:13):
Perfect.
Well that just leads me to sayfor today, Rob, this is the
first time we've had a chat.
I'm hoping it's not the last,but for today, thank you very
much for being my guest.

SPEAKER_01 (23:23):
Thank you, Bill.
My pleasure, and uh look forwardto uh staying in touch with you.

SPEAKER_00 (23:31):
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If you enjoyed this episode, whynot subscribe and listen to some
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