October 3, 2025 • 17 mins
Change rarely fails because the software didn’t ship. It fails because people didn’t shift. In this episode, Bill Bnaham sits down with Richard Page-Brown, a veteran program and change practitioner, to map a clear path from big intentions to sustained behavior change. Using the ADKAR model as our backbone, we move step by step through awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and reinforcement, translating each stage into simple tactics HR leaders can use on Monday morning.
We start with the hard question: why change, and why now? Richard shows how to use market data, employee feedback, and the risks of no action to build true awareness, then turns to the messy middle—desire—where WIIFM, persona-based impact assessments, and credible advocates turn compliance into commitment. From there, we dig into knowledge design for HR tech rollouts, blending e-learning, workshops, SOPs, and process maps. Along the way, we explore AI-driven skills mapping, faster upskilling cycles, and how leading platforms turn skill gaps into targeted learning, coaching, and mentoring.
Ability is where learning becomes doing, and Richard lays out how coaching, sandbox environments, pilots, and phased rollouts build confidence under real pressure. Finally, we tackle reinforcement—the Achilles heel of so many transformations—with concrete steps to update job descriptions, align performance metrics and rewards, celebrate early wins, and keep feedback loops alive so new habits stick. Richard shares lessons learned from global programs, a simple threshold rule for progressing through stages, and a bold reminder: excellent change management makes initiatives seven times more likely to meet and sustain objectives.
If you’re leading a Workday, SAP, SuccessFactors, or Oracle rollout, or rethinking your people strategy for an AI-shaped future, this conversation gives you a field guide to make change real. Listen, share with your team, and if it helps, leave a review and subscribe so more HR pros and leaders can find it. What stage of ADKAR do you need to strengthen next?
Feature Your Brand on the HRchat Podcast
The HRchat show has had 100,000s of downloads and is frequently listed as one of the most popular global podcasts for HR pros, Talent execs and leaders. It is ranked in the top ten in the world based on traffic, social media followers, domain authority & freshness. The podcast is also ranked as the Best Canadian HR Podcast by FeedSpot and one of the top 10% most popular shows by Listen Score.
Want to share the story of how your business is helping to shape the world of work? We offer sponsored episodes, audio adverts, email campaigns, and a host of other options. Check out packages here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:02):
Welcome to the HMR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
HMRGazette.com.
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Podcast,
where we explore theever-evolving world of work,
leadership, and the technologiesshaping the future of HR.
In today's episode, we're divinginto the heart of successful HR
transformation, changemanagement, with a true expert
in the field, none other thanRichard Page Brown.
(00:48):
Richard is a certified programand change management
practitioner with over 20 yearsof experience driving
transformation across complex HRoperations.
He's worked with globalorganizations across many
sectors to implement newtechnologies, redesign
processes, and most criticallyhelp people embrace change.
(01:11):
In this conversation, we'llunpack the ProSci ad car model,
explore practical tools toovercome resistance, and hear
how Richard applied theseprinciples working on global HR
transformation programs.
Whether you're leading a techimplementation or rethinking
your people strategy, thisepisode is packed with practical
takeaways on how to make changestick.
(01:34):
I hope you enjoy thisconversation that I had with
Richard Page Brown.
Richard, my friend, how are youdoing?
Welcome to the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Thank you, Bill.
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Before we go any further, just a quick nod to the
Disrupts HR Birmingham chapter.
We do lots of cool things inBirmingham with Disrupts.
Regular listeners of the showwill know I'm involved with a
bunch of those.
That's how Richard and I firstconnected, I think.
It's an awesome community.
So thank you, DisruptBirmingham, for putting Richard
and I together.
Richard, uh, beyond my weeintroduction just a second ago,
(02:05):
why don't you start by taking aminute or two and introducing
yourself to our audience?
And as part of that answer, whatgets you up in the morning?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yeah, thanks, Bill.
So um, yeah, so I'm uh RichardPage Brown.
I major in HR transformationspace.
So working with my sort ofproject program and change
management background.
Um, what do I what gets me up inthe morning?
Um, I think the theopportunities make a real
difference.
So I've seen lots of businessesdo the same thing over and over
(02:34):
again, making the same mistakes.
And I think it's about learningfrom those and getting getting
to a point where we're reallymoving the dial.
So uh so that's my uh my key keydriver, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Very good.
Thank you very much.
So you've spent over two decadesworking in HR operations and
transformation, of course.
What drew you to specialise inchange management within the HR
space?
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Yeah, so so we all know that HR transformation
programs are pivotal inreshaping how organizations
manage the workforce, optimiseoperations, achieve strategic
goals.
But success to me hinges on thecollective ability of
individuals to embrace change.
Um, and without changemanagement, you're highly likely
(03:15):
not to realise the fullobjectives and benefits.
Uh, you also stand a real chancethat the change not being
sustained.
Um so we all know that peopleare complex, change management
just simply is not an option,and I think the smart
organizations are waking up tothis reality.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
One would hope so, Richard.
Uh so you you've highlightedthat success hinges on the
collective ability ofindividuals to embrace change.
That's a direct quote from you.
Uh, why is this especially truein HR transformation programs?
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, so um, to me, I think HR transformation
programs come in all sizes andshapes.
Um, many have a heavy techfocus, but they all have one
very notable thing in common,which is that they include
people change.
So they require individualsessentially to go from a current
state to a future state totransition on that journey.
Um, and this often involvesdifferent ways of working or
(04:13):
changes of behaviour.
If part of that group affectedby the change is not fully
invested, then that change willsimply be incomplete and
ineffective.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
And you advocate for the ADCAR model within the
Prosky framework.
What makes ADCAR particularlyeffective, Richard, for managing
change in HR environments?
SPEAKER_00 (04:34):
Yeah, so I probably should say, first of all, let me
recognise there are lots ofdifferent change management
frameworks out there.
There's Cotter, the McKinsey,Lewin, others.
Um, I personally favour ProSci,which includes the ADCAR model,
and ADCAR's an acronym, so we'lltalk more about that shortly.
Um, but before I jump in, let mejust give you a quick
disclaimer.
Um, ProSci owns the IP on ADCAR.
(04:55):
Um, however, everything I'mgoing to discuss today is
publicly available on the ProSciwebsite or elsewhere.
So I guess in answer to thequestion, yes, why ADCAR?
Um, HR transformation is heavilyfocused on people change, and to
me, ADCAR provides a verypractical framework for this
topic.
It's also, I think, very easilyunderstood by stakeholders
(05:16):
facing change, which makes itreally workable.
Okay, I like it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Your answers are precise and to the point.
That's very good.
So let's unpack ADCAR a bitmore, then starting with
awareness.
In your experience, Richard,what are some of the most
effective tactics for creatinggenuine awareness around a
transformation initiative?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Yeah, sure.
So first let's start by sayingawareness is the foundational
step in any transformation.
So in a HR context, thisinvolves communicating why the
change is needed and how italigns with that broader
strategy.
Um, so tactics I've employed atthis stage would be typically to
hold meetings to outline,outline the necessity of the
(05:59):
change.
So that's town halls andwebinars.
Um, I would share data tounderscore the need for change.
So that might be looking atmarket trends and employee
feedback.
Um, and it also very importantarticulate the risks of no
action.
So, for example, reducecompetitiveness or stagnant
growth.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
And generating desire sounds easy in theory,
perhaps, but maybe can be harderin practice.
How do you align employeemotivations with organizational
goals, especially when there'sresistance to change?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, so probably let me start by saying desire
definitely isn't easy.
Uh, and it's about generatingbuy-in from employees and your
key stakeholders.
Importantly, yes, we need toalign individuals and
organizational goals.
So, so what would I do to helpthat along?
Um, probably for me, the firstmajor step here is to focus on
(06:53):
the benefits and the what's init for me from an individual
viewpoint.
Um, I'd then also then move onto look at developing a change
impact assessment uh tounderstand how the change will
affect different persona groups.
Uh I'd go about engaging leadersand influencers to advocate that
transformation, and then alsovery keen to address employee
(07:14):
concerns and resistance throughtypically one-to-one meetings
and group forums.
SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
When it comes to building knowledge, Richard,
what learning methods ortraining interventions have you
found have worked best in HRtech transformations?
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Yeah, great.
So knowledge is the essentiallyit's the third ADCAR stage and
it's required to support newways of working.
Um, as we know, HRtransformation often involves
new tech processes or roles, uh,and then employees and managers
need to acquire additionalknowledge.
Uh, and that knowledge transfershould be iterative, allowing
time to build confidence.
(07:50):
So, for me, here keyinterventions would include
probably conducting a learningneeds analysis up front, uh,
developing and delivering thencomprehensive training programs,
providing access to e-learningand workshops, and then also
focusing by sharing with thingslike process maps and standard
operating procedures.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
How much more complicated is that learning
needs analysis?
I wonder, given that AI ischanging things so fast at the
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
It's all about just identifyingskills gaps, isn't it?
Really, and plugging that gap.
And AI is going to have a bigpart to play there for sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
So are you seeing at the moment, you know, you you're
you're doing analysis like that,but actually, um, when you go
and work with another company injust a couple of months' time,
that's that's heavily differentbecause that some of those gaps
have already been filled, someroles have been augmented, some
jobs perhaps in their entiretyhave already been replaced.
Is it is it that rapid at themoment?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
It is, yeah.
And also some of the tier onesort of tech solutions are
focusing really heavily on theirskills um modules.
So they're able there toidentify what jobs, uh what
skills are required in certainroles, um, to allow the
individuals and managers then toscore individuals on their skill
(09:10):
ratings, and then where thereare gaps then to identify
different interventions, sotraining, interventions,
coaching, mentoring.
Um, so I think we'll see a rapidum expansion of that sort of
activity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay, let's talk about the second A now.
How do you ensure that ability,translating knowledge into
confident action, is properlyembedded across different teams?
Any techniques that you thinkabsolutely work and you'd swear
by those?
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Yeah, indeed.
So ability, as you said, is thestage where knowledge is
translated into action.
Uh, and it's the demonstrationof competence.
So it's where individuals showthat they've acquired the
knowledge.
It's also at the hands-onexperience, so crucial for
embedding those new behaviours.
So techniques at this stagewould be looking at mentoring
and coaching, and probably mostimportantly, actually, creating
(10:02):
sandbox environments forindividuals to practice and
play.
Um, also to consider probablythings like pilot projects and
phase rollouts so people havetime to adjust, and then also as
we go on the journey, providingongoing feedback and taking
corrective actions wherenecessary.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Okay, so this all sounds wonderful, Richard, but
uh I'm I'm sure that you're uhacutely aware that um actually
making it stick uh uh in thelong term can be a challenge.
So, in in in the context ofreinforcement uh being the
Achilles heel of changeinitiatives, how how can HR
leaders make sure thatbehaviours stick long after go
(10:40):
live?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Yeah, indeed.
So absolutely, reinforcement isall about sustaining the change,
and it's absolutely a commonchallenge in all HR
transformation programs.
Um, so reinforcement strategiesensure that transformation
becomes part of the old culture,and without reinforcement, old
habits may and probably willresurface and undermine the
transformation.
(11:02):
So here the key tactics reallyare celebrating early wins,
recognising individuals'contribution to the change, um,
consider using surveys andfeedback tools to measure
progress, update jobdescriptions to enforce and
embed that change, uh, and alsothink about things like your
overall performance metrics,reward systems, and policies so
(11:23):
that they all then reflect thechange and tie the individuals
then into the into the newstate.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Do HR leaders sometimes face challenges when
they're updating uh a job spec?
You know, would would there be aconversation uh when it comes to
the annual performance review ifthey still exist, for example?
That that that time of the yearwhere they sit down with an
employee, and the employee says,hang on a minute, this isn't
what you hired me for in thefirst place.
You can't judge you can't judgeme on these these criteria.
(11:50):
What happens in that situation?
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Yeah, well, with all transformation, you get to a
point where either the moneyruns out, interest runs out,
people go chasing the next shinything.
And the the reinforcementactivities often get overlooked.
So those conversations typicallydon't take place.
So people are in this new world,but they're not fully aligned
because their job specs aren'taligned to it or their thinking
(12:12):
isn't aligned to it.
So you get drift and then youget that erosion of the benefit.
So um, so it's it's it's it'sit's a very silly thing to move
on before properly embedding allthat stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Okay, we are flying through my questions today.
Thank you very much.
You touched on some keychallenges in applying ADCAR,
like resistance, poorcommunication, and limited
resources.
How how do you approach thesebarriers in a proactive way?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
Yeah, sure.
So the ADCAR model definitelyprovides that robust framework,
but there will be challengesalong the way.
So you get resistance to changefrom individuals, perhaps due to
fear, uncertainty, or lack oftrust.
Um, you've got something calledthe Swiss cheese effect as well,
which is basically where youpotentially run the risk of
having an incomplete orineffective transition.
(12:56):
Um, you might have inadequatecommunication along the way,
leading to misconceptions anddisengagement.
Um, and oftentimes yourchallenge with limited
resources, time, budget,expertise, whatever.
Um, so addressing thesechallenges definitely requires
proactive planning, engagement,and the need to be adaptable as
well.
So, what I would say is at eacheach ad car stage, you know,
(13:19):
take your head up, look, listen,take the appropriate action, uh,
and make sure that everyindividual is engaged as part of
that journey, don't be takingshortcuts along the way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
Okay, and you've you've mentioned splitting
efforts across tech, projectmanagement, and change
management.
Can you explain why by CM shouldcarry the lion's share of focus?
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
Yeah, sure.
Um, so I mean HR transformationprograms are complex
undertakings, um, but the techand the project management are
actually mostly knownquantities.
So, you know, work packages canbe managed.
You know, if you follow the IKEAinstructions, you'll end up with
a functional wardrobe.
But but remember, success hingeson the collective ability of
individuals to embrace thatchange.
(14:02):
So it's all about the hearts andminds, getting people to buy
into that change.
And quite simply, you can't adda task to a project plan and
think that change will happen.
So change management to me iscrucial to delivering that
sustained change.
We also know as well from proSci research that initiatives
with excellent change managementare seven times more likely to
(14:23):
meet and sustain objectives.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
I like that you used IKEA as an example and then you
used the word hinges.
I don't know if that wasdeliberate, but that was that
that was that was good.
Uh as a as a father, I like agood pun.
Um okay, so we are almost at theend.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
My penultimate question for you is We missed
one bill, actually, which wasthe previous question.
Do you want to do that one aswell?
Or do you want to jump over thatone?
Question 10.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
Um lessons learned from managing these
transformations.
Sure, yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Uh okay, here we go.
So you've worked across many HRtransformation projects, of
course, applying ADCAR in acomplex global setting.
What were the biggest lessonslearned from managing these
transformations?
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
Yeah, so I guess I mean, thinking back as a novice,
I'd focus on the project tasksand deliverables.
Um, I had great project plansand progress reports, uh, and
things mostly ran likeclockwork.
Um, projects got delivered andthe tin got installed.
But I knew there was somethingmissing, and I could see that
things sometimes were slippingbackwards post-go live.
(15:28):
And then there was therealization actually that what I
was focusing all my efforts onproject and program management
and ignoring the changemanagement element.
So that was a real lifeboardmoment for me.
Um, so to me, very important toview HR transformations and ad
car as a linear journey.
Definitely don't jump ahead.
Uh and what I would say is well,if you imagine each ADCAR stage
(15:49):
um with a score of say betweenzero and five, I would say only
progress where the score is fourplus.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Uh for HR listening, HR leaders listening who are
about to embark on atransformation project.
What's your one piece of adviceto ensure that their change
management efforts do not fallflat?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
We like some practical takeaways.
Help us out here.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So I guess you know, reflectingback on all my time doing this
stuff, I would say investproperly in change management.
And I'm not just talking aboutthe bit of comms or the your
training session.
So make change management thebig focus of your transformation
effort right from the outset.
Don't be cutting corners, don'taccelerate ahead until you've
(16:30):
got those solid foundations inplace.
And I would say that rememberthe ADCAR model is a really
useful tool and will absolutelyhelp you on that journey.
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Wonderful.
And just finally, for today,Richard, how can our listeners
connect with and learn moreabout you?
Is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overTikTok?
Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Yeah, so uh so I'm I'm I'm uh active on LinkedIn.
Um my account, you'll find me asRichard Page Brown.
So just gone to LinkedIn andfind me there.
Um, but happy to engage withwith yeah, all your audience,
uh, many of whom might do soalready.
But um great to keep theconversation alive.
So so whether that's HRtransformation, change
management, or anything in thatsort of space, yeah, give me a
(17:13):
shout.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
And just to add to what Richard said there, my
experience of Richard evergetting to know him over the
last while is that he's a lovelyguy, he's very welcoming, he's
very open.
So if you shoot him a note, I'mpretty confident he'll get back
to you.
Uh unless you've got somethingstupid to say while you're
trying to sell to him, then youknow, um, that's on you.
Uh Richard, that just leads meto say for today, sir, thank you
very much for being my guest onthe HR Chat Show.
(17:34):
Thank you, Bill.
It's been a real honor.
Thank you.
Enjoyed it.
And listeners, as always, untilnext time, happy working.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode, whynot subscribe and listen to some
of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette?
And remember, for what's new inthe world of work, subscribe to
the show, follow us on socialmedia, and visit hrgazette.com.
Welcome to the HMR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
HMRGazette.com.
SPEAKER_01 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Podcast,
where we explore theever-evolving world of work,
leadership, and the technologiesshaping the future of HR.
In today's episode, we're divinginto the heart of successful HR
transformation, changemanagement, with a true expert
in the field, none other thanRichard Page Brown.
(00:48):
Richard is a certified programand change management
practitioner with over 20 yearsof experience driving
transformation across complex HRoperations.
He's worked with globalorganizations across many
sectors to implement newtechnologies, redesign
processes, and most criticallyhelp people embrace change.
(01:11):
In this conversation, we'llunpack the ProSci ad car model,
explore practical tools toovercome resistance, and hear
how Richard applied theseprinciples working on global HR
transformation programs.
Whether you're leading a techimplementation or rethinking
your people strategy, thisepisode is packed with practical
takeaways on how to make changestick.
(01:34):
I hope you enjoy thisconversation that I had with
Richard Page Brown.
Richard, my friend, how are youdoing?
Welcome to the show today.
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
Thank you, Bill.
Great to be here.
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Before we go any further, just a quick nod to the
Disrupts HR Birmingham chapter.
We do lots of cool things inBirmingham with Disrupts.
Regular listeners of the showwill know I'm involved with a
bunch of those.
That's how Richard and I firstconnected, I think.
It's an awesome community.
So thank you, DisruptBirmingham, for putting Richard
and I together.
Richard, uh, beyond my weeintroduction just a second ago,
(02:05):
why don't you start by taking aminute or two and introducing
yourself to our audience?
And as part of that answer, whatgets you up in the morning?
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
Yeah, thanks, Bill.
So um, yeah, so I'm uh RichardPage Brown.
I major in HR transformationspace.
So working with my sort ofproject program and change
management background.
Um, what do I what gets me up inthe morning?
Um, I think the theopportunities make a real
difference.
So I've seen lots of businessesdo the same thing over and over
(02:34):
again, making the same mistakes.
And I think it's about learningfrom those and getting getting
to a point where we're reallymoving the dial.
So uh so that's my uh my key keydriver, I guess.
SPEAKER_01 (02:44):
Very good.
Thank you very much.
So you've spent over two decadesworking in HR operations and
transformation, of course.
What drew you to specialise inchange management within the HR
space?
SPEAKER_00 (02:55):
Yeah, so so we all know that HR transformation
programs are pivotal inreshaping how organizations
manage the workforce, optimiseoperations, achieve strategic
goals.
But success to me hinges on thecollective ability of
individuals to embrace change.
Um, and without changemanagement, you're highly likely
(03:15):
not to realise the fullobjectives and benefits.
Uh, you also stand a real chancethat the change not being
sustained.
Um so we all know that peopleare complex, change management
just simply is not an option,and I think the smart
organizations are waking up tothis reality.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
One would hope so, Richard.
Uh so you you've highlightedthat success hinges on the
collective ability ofindividuals to embrace change.
That's a direct quote from you.
Uh, why is this especially truein HR transformation programs?
SPEAKER_00 (03:51):
Yeah, so um, to me, I think HR transformation
programs come in all sizes andshapes.
Um, many have a heavy techfocus, but they all have one
very notable thing in common,which is that they include
people change.
So they require individualsessentially to go from a current
state to a future state totransition on that journey.
Um, and this often involvesdifferent ways of working or
(04:13):
changes of behaviour.
If part of that group affectedby the change is not fully
invested, then that change willsimply be incomplete and
ineffective.
SPEAKER_01 (04:23):
And you advocate for the ADCAR model within the
Prosky framework.
What makes ADCAR particularlyeffective, Richard, for managing
change in HR environments?
SPEAKER_00 (04:34):
Yeah, so I probably should say, first of all, let me
recognise there are lots ofdifferent change management
frameworks out there.
There's Cotter, the McKinsey,Lewin, others.
Um, I personally favour ProSci,which includes the ADCAR model,
and ADCAR's an acronym, so we'lltalk more about that shortly.
Um, but before I jump in, let mejust give you a quick
disclaimer.
Um, ProSci owns the IP on ADCAR.
(04:55):
Um, however, everything I'mgoing to discuss today is
publicly available on the ProSciwebsite or elsewhere.
So I guess in answer to thequestion, yes, why ADCAR?
Um, HR transformation is heavilyfocused on people change, and to
me, ADCAR provides a verypractical framework for this
topic.
It's also, I think, very easilyunderstood by stakeholders
(05:16):
facing change, which makes itreally workable.
Okay, I like it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Your answers are precise and to the point.
That's very good.
So let's unpack ADCAR a bitmore, then starting with
awareness.
In your experience, Richard,what are some of the most
effective tactics for creatinggenuine awareness around a
transformation initiative?
SPEAKER_00 (05:39):
Yeah, sure.
So first let's start by sayingawareness is the foundational
step in any transformation.
So in a HR context, thisinvolves communicating why the
change is needed and how italigns with that broader
strategy.
Um, so tactics I've employed atthis stage would be typically to
hold meetings to outline,outline the necessity of the
(05:59):
change.
So that's town halls andwebinars.
Um, I would share data tounderscore the need for change.
So that might be looking atmarket trends and employee
feedback.
Um, and it also very importantarticulate the risks of no
action.
So, for example, reducecompetitiveness or stagnant
growth.
SPEAKER_01 (06:17):
And generating desire sounds easy in theory,
perhaps, but maybe can be harderin practice.
How do you align employeemotivations with organizational
goals, especially when there'sresistance to change?
SPEAKER_00 (06:33):
Yeah, so probably let me start by saying desire
definitely isn't easy.
Uh, and it's about generatingbuy-in from employees and your
key stakeholders.
Importantly, yes, we need toalign individuals and
organizational goals.
So, so what would I do to helpthat along?
Um, probably for me, the firstmajor step here is to focus on
(06:53):
the benefits and the what's init for me from an individual
viewpoint.
Um, I'd then also then move onto look at developing a change
impact assessment uh tounderstand how the change will
affect different persona groups.
Uh I'd go about engaging leadersand influencers to advocate that
transformation, and then alsovery keen to address employee
(07:14):
concerns and resistance throughtypically one-to-one meetings
and group forums.
SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
When it comes to building knowledge, Richard,
what learning methods ortraining interventions have you
found have worked best in HRtech transformations?
SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Yeah, great.
So knowledge is the essentiallyit's the third ADCAR stage and
it's required to support newways of working.
Um, as we know, HRtransformation often involves
new tech processes or roles, uh,and then employees and managers
need to acquire additionalknowledge.
Uh, and that knowledge transfershould be iterative, allowing
time to build confidence.
(07:50):
So, for me, here keyinterventions would include
probably conducting a learningneeds analysis up front, uh,
developing and delivering thencomprehensive training programs,
providing access to e-learningand workshops, and then also
focusing by sharing with thingslike process maps and standard
operating procedures.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
How much more complicated is that learning
needs analysis?
I wonder, given that AI ischanging things so fast at the
moment.
SPEAKER_00 (08:20):
That's the thing, isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
It's all about just identifyingskills gaps, isn't it?
Really, and plugging that gap.
And AI is going to have a bigpart to play there for sure.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:29):
So are you seeing at the moment, you know, you you're
you're doing analysis like that,but actually, um, when you go
and work with another company injust a couple of months' time,
that's that's heavily differentbecause that some of those gaps
have already been filled, someroles have been augmented, some
jobs perhaps in their entiretyhave already been replaced.
Is it is it that rapid at themoment?
SPEAKER_00 (08:49):
It is, yeah.
And also some of the tier onesort of tech solutions are
focusing really heavily on theirskills um modules.
So they're able there toidentify what jobs, uh what
skills are required in certainroles, um, to allow the
individuals and managers then toscore individuals on their skill
(09:10):
ratings, and then where thereare gaps then to identify
different interventions, sotraining, interventions,
coaching, mentoring.
Um, so I think we'll see a rapidum expansion of that sort of
activity.
SPEAKER_01 (09:24):
Okay, let's talk about the second A now.
How do you ensure that ability,translating knowledge into
confident action, is properlyembedded across different teams?
Any techniques that you thinkabsolutely work and you'd swear
by those?
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
Yeah, indeed.
So ability, as you said, is thestage where knowledge is
translated into action.
Uh, and it's the demonstrationof competence.
So it's where individuals showthat they've acquired the
knowledge.
It's also at the hands-onexperience, so crucial for
embedding those new behaviours.
So techniques at this stagewould be looking at mentoring
and coaching, and probably mostimportantly, actually, creating
(10:02):
sandbox environments forindividuals to practice and
play.
Um, also to consider probablythings like pilot projects and
phase rollouts so people havetime to adjust, and then also as
we go on the journey, providingongoing feedback and taking
corrective actions wherenecessary.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Okay, so this all sounds wonderful, Richard, but
uh I'm I'm sure that you're uhacutely aware that um actually
making it stick uh uh in thelong term can be a challenge.
So, in in in the context ofreinforcement uh being the
Achilles heel of changeinitiatives, how how can HR
leaders make sure thatbehaviours stick long after go
(10:40):
live?
SPEAKER_00 (10:41):
Yeah, indeed.
So absolutely, reinforcement isall about sustaining the change,
and it's absolutely a commonchallenge in all HR
transformation programs.
Um, so reinforcement strategiesensure that transformation
becomes part of the old culture,and without reinforcement, old
habits may and probably willresurface and undermine the
transformation.
(11:02):
So here the key tactics reallyare celebrating early wins,
recognising individuals'contribution to the change, um,
consider using surveys andfeedback tools to measure
progress, update jobdescriptions to enforce and
embed that change, uh, and alsothink about things like your
overall performance metrics,reward systems, and policies so
(11:23):
that they all then reflect thechange and tie the individuals
then into the into the newstate.
SPEAKER_01 (11:29):
Do HR leaders sometimes face challenges when
they're updating uh a job spec?
You know, would would there be aconversation uh when it comes to
the annual performance review ifthey still exist, for example?
That that that time of the yearwhere they sit down with an
employee, and the employee says,hang on a minute, this isn't
what you hired me for in thefirst place.
You can't judge you can't judgeme on these these criteria.
(11:50):
What happens in that situation?
SPEAKER_00 (11:51):
Yeah, well, with all transformation, you get to a
point where either the moneyruns out, interest runs out,
people go chasing the next shinything.
And the the reinforcementactivities often get overlooked.
So those conversations typicallydon't take place.
So people are in this new world,but they're not fully aligned
because their job specs aren'taligned to it or their thinking
(12:12):
isn't aligned to it.
So you get drift and then youget that erosion of the benefit.
So um, so it's it's it's it'sit's a very silly thing to move
on before properly embedding allthat stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (12:23):
Okay, we are flying through my questions today.
Thank you very much.
You touched on some keychallenges in applying ADCAR,
like resistance, poorcommunication, and limited
resources.
How how do you approach thesebarriers in a proactive way?
SPEAKER_00 (12:36):
Yeah, sure.
So the ADCAR model definitelyprovides that robust framework,
but there will be challengesalong the way.
So you get resistance to changefrom individuals, perhaps due to
fear, uncertainty, or lack oftrust.
Um, you've got something calledthe Swiss cheese effect as well,
which is basically where youpotentially run the risk of
having an incomplete orineffective transition.
(12:56):
Um, you might have inadequatecommunication along the way,
leading to misconceptions anddisengagement.
Um, and oftentimes yourchallenge with limited
resources, time, budget,expertise, whatever.
Um, so addressing thesechallenges definitely requires
proactive planning, engagement,and the need to be adaptable as
well.
So, what I would say is at eacheach ad car stage, you know,
(13:19):
take your head up, look, listen,take the appropriate action, uh,
and make sure that everyindividual is engaged as part of
that journey, don't be takingshortcuts along the way.
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
Okay, and you've you've mentioned splitting
efforts across tech, projectmanagement, and change
management.
Can you explain why by CM shouldcarry the lion's share of focus?
SPEAKER_00 (13:41):
Yeah, sure.
Um, so I mean HR transformationprograms are complex
undertakings, um, but the techand the project management are
actually mostly knownquantities.
So, you know, work packages canbe managed.
You know, if you follow the IKEAinstructions, you'll end up with
a functional wardrobe.
But but remember, success hingeson the collective ability of
individuals to embrace thatchange.
(14:02):
So it's all about the hearts andminds, getting people to buy
into that change.
And quite simply, you can't adda task to a project plan and
think that change will happen.
So change management to me iscrucial to delivering that
sustained change.
We also know as well from proSci research that initiatives
with excellent change managementare seven times more likely to
(14:23):
meet and sustain objectives.
SPEAKER_01 (14:26):
I like that you used IKEA as an example and then you
used the word hinges.
I don't know if that wasdeliberate, but that was that
that was that was good.
Uh as a as a father, I like agood pun.
Um okay, so we are almost at theend.
SPEAKER_00 (14:38):
My penultimate question for you is We missed
one bill, actually, which wasthe previous question.
Do you want to do that one aswell?
Or do you want to jump over thatone?
Question 10.
SPEAKER_01 (14:46):
Um lessons learned from managing these
transformations.
Sure, yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Uh okay, here we go.
So you've worked across many HRtransformation projects, of
course, applying ADCAR in acomplex global setting.
What were the biggest lessonslearned from managing these
transformations?
SPEAKER_00 (15:06):
Yeah, so I guess I mean, thinking back as a novice,
I'd focus on the project tasksand deliverables.
Um, I had great project plansand progress reports, uh, and
things mostly ran likeclockwork.
Um, projects got delivered andthe tin got installed.
But I knew there was somethingmissing, and I could see that
things sometimes were slippingbackwards post-go live.
(15:28):
And then there was therealization actually that what I
was focusing all my efforts onproject and program management
and ignoring the changemanagement element.
So that was a real lifeboardmoment for me.
Um, so to me, very important toview HR transformations and ad
car as a linear journey.
Definitely don't jump ahead.
Uh and what I would say is well,if you imagine each ADCAR stage
(15:49):
um with a score of say betweenzero and five, I would say only
progress where the score is fourplus.
SPEAKER_01 (15:56):
Uh for HR listening, HR leaders listening who are
about to embark on atransformation project.
What's your one piece of adviceto ensure that their change
management efforts do not fallflat?
SPEAKER_00 (16:08):
We like some practical takeaways.
Help us out here.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So I guess you know, reflectingback on all my time doing this
stuff, I would say investproperly in change management.
And I'm not just talking aboutthe bit of comms or the your
training session.
So make change management thebig focus of your transformation
effort right from the outset.
Don't be cutting corners, don'taccelerate ahead until you've
(16:30):
got those solid foundations inplace.
And I would say that rememberthe ADCAR model is a really
useful tool and will absolutelyhelp you on that journey.
SPEAKER_01 (16:40):
Wonderful.
And just finally, for today,Richard, how can our listeners
connect with and learn moreabout you?
Is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overTikTok?
Tell us more.
SPEAKER_00 (16:50):
Yeah, so uh so I'm I'm I'm uh active on LinkedIn.
Um my account, you'll find me asRichard Page Brown.
So just gone to LinkedIn andfind me there.
Um, but happy to engage withwith yeah, all your audience,
uh, many of whom might do soalready.
But um great to keep theconversation alive.
So so whether that's HRtransformation, change
management, or anything in thatsort of space, yeah, give me a
(17:13):
shout.
SPEAKER_01 (17:14):
And just to add to what Richard said there, my
experience of Richard evergetting to know him over the
last while is that he's a lovelyguy, he's very welcoming, he's
very open.
So if you shoot him a note, I'mpretty confident he'll get back
to you.
Uh unless you've got somethingstupid to say while you're
trying to sell to him, then youknow, um, that's on you.
Uh Richard, that just leads meto say for today, sir, thank you
very much for being my guest onthe HR Chat Show.
(17:34):
Thank you, Bill.
It's been a real honor.
Thank you.
Enjoyed it.
And listeners, as always, untilnext time, happy working.
SPEAKER_02 (17:44):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode, whynot subscribe and listen to some
of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette?
And remember, for what's new inthe world of work, subscribe to
the show, follow us on socialmedia, and visit hrgazette.com.
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com