April 24, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever wonder why traditional hiring processes fail so often? In this eye-opening conversation, The Predictive Index's Chief People Officer Jackie Dube reveals how data-driven talent optimization transformed their approach to finding and developing exceptional talent.
Jackie shares the compelling evolution of PI's interview process with host Bob Goodwin. She explains how their behavioral assessments help identify which candidates will thrive in specific roles without using them as rigid filters. "It's about understanding humans and what drives them," Jackie explains, highlighting how this approach transcends the limitations of resume-based hiring.
The most profound revelation comes when Jackie shares PI's commitment to skills-based hiring. "We care about curiosity and attitude," she states firmly, revealing how this philosophy enabled remarkable transformations within their organization. Their current director of engineering began as a product marketer, and when faced with unexpected leadership departures, they seamlessly transitioned their VP of product design to lead their sales department—with outstanding results. This internal mobility has created a culture where talent thrives and adapts to changing business needs.
Perhaps most fascinating is PI's innovative "culture interview" conducted by someone outside the hiring team. This unique approach ensures candidates experience the broader company culture beyond their potential teammates and provides valuable perspective on cultural alignment with their "THREADS" values (teamwork, honesty, reliability, energy, action, drive, scope). As Jackie notes with a smile, "We do have a no-jackass policy."
For HR professionals navigating today's challenging talent landscape, Jackie offers practical advice: look beyond resumes, avoid assumptions about employment gaps, provide clear communication throughout the process, and recognize that the right attitude and curiosity often matter more than direct experience. "Don't be a bystander," she urges, encouraging listeners to leverage all available tools—from assessments to emerging AI—to make better talent decisions.
Ready to transform your approach to talent? Listen now and discover how understanding human drives could revolutionize your hiring success.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
HRGazettecom.
And visit HRGazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of
Career Club, and welcome toanother episode of HR Chat.
Thank you to my good friendBill Bannum and the folks at HR
Gazette for allowing me to guesthost every once in a while.
It's a pleasure to be with youguys today.
It's especially a pleasuretoday because I'm joined by
Jackie Duby, who is the ChiefPeople Officer at the Predictive
Index Company.
(00:44):
Jackie, welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi, thanks for having me so excited to be here today.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
No, I'm excited to have you.
We've gotten to know each otherover the past few weeks and
you've got some very interestingstories to share, I think, some
best practices and lessonslearned to share.
Clearly, the use of assessments, I think, is very interesting
to people and the PredictiveIndex is obviously one of the
name brand ones out there.
It's been around for a while.
I wanted to start off.
(01:11):
First of all.
Just let people get to know youa little bit as a human being
first.
Where are you calling in from?
Where do you live now?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Sure, I'm calling in from the great small state of
Rhode Island.
So I live in a little sailingcity called Newport, rhode
Island, and I've been here forgosh more than half my life, so
I went to college in RhodeIsland and never left.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So, having been to Newport, that is a beautiful,
beautiful spot.
So you were born and raised inRhode Island, or?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
not.
Nope, I was born actually inBasel, Switzerland.
My parents were transferredthere for two years and no, I'm
not a dual citizen Everyonealways asks.
But I did grow up in the alsosmall great state of New Jersey.
So I went to college, as Imentioned, up in Rhode Island
and kind of never left this area.
So I love it?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And when you're not being an amazing chief people
officer, what do we find youdoing?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So you'll find me doing a couple of things.
So I have a wonderful family.
I have two girls, one incollege and one in high school.
So still in transferring themaround, so we don't have a
license for the younger one, foranother for like 18 days.
So we're counting those and butI'm in, I run.
So I've run five marathons,multiple, multiple half
(02:29):
marathons, and I am not anamazing tennis player, but gosh
darn do I try.
So those are the things you'llfind me doing.
Where's the Tennis Hall of Fame?
Is it around you?
It is, and actually that's myclub.
So it is about a mile and ahalf from my house.
It's right up on MemorialBoulevard in Newport, so you
should visit when you're around.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So if you ever find yourself in Cincinnati, you need
to come to the tennis eventthat we have every year in
August.
It's a tune-up for the US Open,as you probably know, and
everybody's here every year.
It's very very fun.
I have actually always wantedto go to the Cincinnati Open, so
(03:10):
maybe one year it's so hard toleave.
Newport in the summer, though,trust me, you'll find me on your
doorstep.
All right, let's get into it sovery quickly.
Maybe this is the proper way toset the stage.
Do you mind just explainingjust a little bit about the
predictive index for people whomay not be familiar with it, and
then I don't want to spend aton of time on that.
We'll get into your processesand things, but just for
somebody who may not havefamiliarity at all with it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Sure.
So the Predictive Index is atalent optimization platform.
So we have a behavioralassessment, a job assessment, a
cognitive assessment, but it'smuch more than that behavioral
assessment, a job assessment, acognitive assessment but it's
much more than that.
So the platform, the science,technology and services.
We have a network of partnersthat help service the talent
(03:53):
optimization, but it's allaround helping companies to hire
the right people, inspiringthem to perform, using the data
to design, winning, performingteams and then continually
measuring that engagement.
So the platform does all ofthose things.
I do think it might be helpfulto just give some perspective on
(04:13):
how I came to be at thePredictive Index.
That'd be amazing.
Yeah, so I've been in HR forover 25 years, so since I
graduated from college and backin, let's see, back in 2009,.
I was in the job hunt.
The company that I had justworked for filed for bankruptcy
(04:36):
and I bumped into Mike Sani,who's the current CEO of the
Predictive Index, and at thetime, he was taking over as a
CEO for a startup which had ninepeople for it, and he had just
used the Predictive Index forthe first time at his previous
investment and brought it overto this new organization, and I
(04:59):
had never used it.
I never really used assessmentsin any of my practices and Mike
was like we have nine people,we're going to grow this company
, we to do it intentionally, andthis is one way in which you
can make sure that you areintentionally hiring the right
people to do the job that you'retrying to get them to do Now.
Back then, the technology waslike way different.
(05:21):
It was just an assessment andand you needed a consultant to
interpret it.
We've come very far from there,but the science was so powerful
in decoding humans and reallygetting understanding what
drives them and understandingmore about jobs that when I left
that company, it was arequirement for me to take
wherever I went.
(05:41):
So I went to another startupcompany as a change agent.
We sold that company.
Then I started my ownconsulting practice and was
lucky enough to have a firstclient that used the predictive
index, and my network justexpanded from there.
And then, when Mike, my formerCEO, actually bought the
(06:02):
predictive index in 2014 withhis partner, they became a
client of mine.
They knew they were going tochange the company.
They needed to hire a wholebunch of new people.
They knew the type of culturethey wanted to build and then a
year later I found my dream joband I've been here for 10 years
as we've kind of grown thecompany.
So it's really not necessarilyI love PI, but it is about
(06:25):
understanding humans and whatdrives them and the power that
has we're so so many times, youknow, as HR people or leaders in
businesses, we're alwayslooking at the resume Like what
did they do before?
Because that's going to predictwhat I want, predict what I
want them to do, and that'sactually not the case.
So I just found the science tobe so powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
No, well, first of all, I appreciate you saying
that context, because you'reright.
I mean, you were a user of itand became a believer in it
before you worked there, whichmakes this much more than a job,
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
It's a dream job.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You get to share the good news, okay, you get to
share the good news, okay.
So I do want to say one otherthing, since we're speaking to a
lot of HR people.
You use the word or the phraselike decoding human beings, and
I was given a talk a couple ofweeks ago and you know the CEO
(07:22):
has got strategy and all thiskind of complicated stuff.
The CFO has got, you know,doing everything with all the
accounting and finance and allthat's pretty complicated.
You've got the IT person.
Lord knows they're dealing withartificial intelligence and
whatever else.
Hr people easily have thehardest job because you've got
(07:47):
the most complex thing thatyou're trying to understand,
manage, help, optimize to useyour earlier word and like
there's nothing more complicatedin the universe than a human
being and that's what HR peopleare charged with.
So tons of respect, I guess, isbasically, and anything that
you can use to help understandthat.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And you know, on that note, like we talk about all
the time is that in every otherarea you mentioned, a CEO has a
strategy and uses all of thisdata and metrics to predict or
measure their outcomes.
And so, for so long, hr wasnever tied to data or use data
to manage their outcomes.
And so, for so long, hr wasnever tied to data or use data
(08:28):
to manage their business.
And there's data out there onpeople, on engagement, and we
should be using that to measureour outcomes and set our goals
in place when we have it, youknow, and there's ways to get it
.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, okay, so you're right.
And whether it's modeling fromthe CEO's perspective Well, okay
, so you're right.
And whether it's modeling fromthe CEO's perspective, modeling
like if we were entered thismarket, what would happen, how
much resources we'd have to putagainst it, what's the expected
return?
The CFO is always modelingfinancial outcomes and changes
in the budget and revenue's notcoming in the way that we
(09:01):
thought.
So how do we have to?
They live on modeling.
Your marketing people live onmodeling.
If we launch this campaign,what's the likely response rate?
That's how it can translateinto sales, whatever.
And you're right, peopleanalytics from a predictive way,
I think.
Maybe some descriptive, right,but predictive is a world away
(09:23):
from descriptive.
Descriptive, right, butpredictive is a world away from
descriptive.
And you know, if the sciencebears it out, being able to
predict how someone is going toperform, you know.
So let's use that as alaunching point with that.
So when we, when we firstgetting to know each other, you
were describing for me kind of abefore and an after that you
guys had a previous, you know,hiring and interview process and
(09:48):
that's actually changed andimproved.
Can you kind of give the beforeand the after and we'll kind of
get into the guts of it as yougo.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Sure, and I feel like this, a lot of companies fall
into this cycle of one likeyou're interviewing the
candidate, it is your choice,right, and you're like no,
they're interviewing you too.
So that's a.
You know, a good first step isto realize it's a, it's a mutual
interview.
(10:16):
But so our interview processhas always been to use
assessments.
We use that at the verybeginning of our assessment of
our interview process to helpnot filter candidates, but to
identify which ones will mostlikely succeed in the job based
on what we're asking them to do.
And we do that through abehavioral assessment, job
(10:37):
assessment.
So we've always done that.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview which consists
or excuse me, an HR interview,which consists of, like just the
screening, making sure likesalary and all that kind of
stuff match.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview which
consists or excuse me, an HRinterview which consists of,
like, just the screening, makingsure like salary and all that
kind of stuff match.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview, and then
we'd get to the super day, andthe super day was like a free
for all of who wants to meetthis candidate.
(10:57):
You know how, what questionsyou want to ask and a candidate
would come in, sometimes forlike a full day, a full day.
You want to ask, and acandidate would come in
sometimes for like a full day, afull day.
Now, this was more onsite,where, where the pre COVID and
you know, which is great, youget to know them, they get to
know you.
We weren't very structured inensuring that the same people
weren't asking the samequestions.
(11:17):
So, imagine you're a candidateand you go to, like I don't know
, four or five interviews andyou start with the same six
things every single time.
You're like, oh my gosh, I wishthey would just talk to each
other.
And so we took a lot of time ingetting candidate feedback on
their experience.
And you know, throughGlastonbury Reviews we took an
(11:39):
evaluation.
We had the candidates fill outan evaluation after their
interview and you know, even thecandidates that got the job
felt like that was a lot and itwasn't necessarily always the
most productive.
And so over time, through lotsof iterations, we've ended up in
(12:01):
a more streamlined processwhere the maximum amount of
super day time can be four hoursmax, even though it's on Zoom,
and if it's on different days,four hours maximum.
We get a hiring team together.
We talk about who's askingwhich questions.
There's interview guides interms of who's screening for
(12:22):
what.
And then one of the mostvaluable interview portions that
we met that we introduced waswhat we call like a culture
interview.
So we have our we can talkabout this later but we have our
cultural values defined.
It's an acronym, it stands forthreads, and so we train a group
of employees that volunteer inhow to do this cultural
(12:45):
interview based on our corevalues.
And they get to spend some timewith a candidate, and the key
here is that the person who'sdoing the culture interview is
not on the team that thecandidate is interviewing for,
and this really gives thecandidate more insight into what
is this company that I amjoining versus this team.
The team is important, but it'salso like what does it look like
(13:06):
outside of the people I'll beworking with?
Am I hearing the same things?
And it really gives thecandidate a chance to ask some
more general questions from anemployee that just works at the
company, and we found this to bea huge benefit for both the
candidate and for us.
And then, at the end of the, ifanyone makes it to this four
(13:26):
hour interview, we send them agift card afterwards for a
coffee, for spending time withus, to really just thank them,
because they are taking sometime out of their day to spend
with us, and we appreciate that.
So so, yeah, so it's been anevolution over, you know, six or
seven years in terms of gettingit right, but we really think
that we are efficient.
(13:47):
We give a good experience tothe candidate.
We always tell them when we'regoing to get back to them.
You know we talk about thiswhite glove experience.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So OK, where did four hours come?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
from.
So it was a lot of testing tomake sure, one that we had the
right amount of time to get theinformation that we needed, and
then a lot of candidate feedbackaround.
What did they expect was toomuch time to spend in an
interview, and it doesn't alwaysreach four right.
(14:21):
Sometimes there's just, youknow, two or three people that
the person might need to meetwith, but four was the maximum.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I'll tell you what.
Just from people who know meoutside of this podcast know
that I devote a decent amount oftime to helping job seekers,
and you know one of the keythings is just like these really
brutal interview processes andyou know what might feel like a
super day to you.
(14:48):
Might be a super, not great dayfrom experience perspective.
I mean seriously.
And you know to your point,like, is there a process?
Why did I just answer thatquestion for the third time?
I, like I said, do you talk toeach other?
But what I think I would liketo kind of dial into, because
(15:09):
people are using assessments andI do want to talk about the
predictive index in particular,but you said that you use the
instrument on the front end,right, not as a filter, but as a
way of kind of you know, makingsure this person's going to be
a good fit for the role that weneed.
(15:29):
How do you use the assessmentin the interview process?
How does that shape the kindsof things that you might want to
learn and who's asking thosethings?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Sure, so typically I'll just answer the last
question first.
Sure, so typically I'll justanswer the last question first.
Typically it's the hiringmanager that will talk more
about like behavioral fit forthe job with the candidate, and
so one of the great tools thatwe have also is this job
assessment, and what that doesis it sends out a survey to all
(16:01):
the stakeholders for the job.
So just say that you're mymanager or you're the hiring
manager, so you would take it,and then maybe a key stakeholder
in finance would take it, andthen anyone on the hiring team
or not anyone, but some peopleon the hiring team and that
comes back.
One it shows are all of thepeople that are going to be
(16:22):
interviewing this person lookingfor the same thing?
Yes, right, because sometimesyou're like this person is not
going to drive this processforward and you're like I wasn't
expecting them to.
They're going to execute onthings I asked them to.
So now you're interviewing fortwo different things and the
interview is over, right?
So one on the forefront ofhiring it gets everyone aligned
to what is this job, not eventhe person like what's the job.
(16:46):
So once the job is defined,then you can say to the
candidates.
So take a behavioral assessmentand the software will kind of
just give are they matched ornot?
And there's a numerical matchof how close they are from a
behavioral to job fit.
And so just say that in thisjob you're in a finance role and
(17:08):
detail, orientation, rulefollowing and process following
are really important to this job, and you get a candidate that
might not have great attentionto detail but has know, has
everything else that you'relooking for, is curious, has
good attitude, has got someexperience.
(17:28):
So you're like, okay, let mefind more out about this, and so
then you can, the software willdo this.
But the questioning around thiscomes to like, hey, this job
requires, you know, a lot ofattention to detail.
There's, you know it's reallyimportant to get the numbers
right.
Can you tell me about a timewhere you had to dig into the
details and how did you feelabout that?
(17:50):
Is this something that woulddrain you?
Because we can all do jobs thatare outside of how we're wired,
it's in, how we're driven, it'sjust like, how sustainable is
it?
Does it exhaust you?
And so I think it's digging deepin there, but even knowing what
questions to ask are soimportant, because sometimes
you're like and this is why wedo it at the beginning too
(18:10):
because, just say, you're hiringfor a sales job that requires
lots of social interaction andextroversion.
Everyone is going to fall inlove with someone who's social
and can hold a conversation.
Right, you're like this isgreat, but like they might not
be able to put pressure on toclose a deal or negotiate.
But if you've already kind offallen in love with them because
(18:31):
you had this great conversationand connection, you might not.
You might be considering, ohwell, they'll figure that out
and it's actually they're notgoing to be a successful
salesperson.
So it's those types of insightsthat just help you ask the
question.
So it's those types of insightsthat just help you ask the
question to learn more.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So I'm a big fan of assessments and I have used
predictive index in the past andit's very, very, very good.
And a couple of things thatcome to mind and I just think
about to your earlier point,like the biases.
Like, I just like Jackie.
She's so nice, you know, she'sfriendly.
I think she'd be a greatculture fit here and, you know,
(19:09):
if our flight got canceled she'dbe a fun person to talk to, you
know.
So yeah, let's go.
And so we have our biases.
There's also a consistency kindof a thing, right, because I
might accidentally, luckily,maybe intentionally, uncover the
(19:29):
fact that details is not yourthing.
You're an amazing strategicthinker but you know, actually
getting into theoperationalizing of those things
is not your lane as much.
And you're right, when we cando stuff, we can kind of push
through, but it's exhausting andto do it repeatedly there's
going that's going to come at acost, right, either the quality
(19:52):
of work, burnout of the person,whatever.
And you also have people fromthe candidate side.
I really need a job.
Right now I'm going to saywhatever I need to say to get
hired I need a job.
This is a very tough job market.
As you and I record this, thisis not an easy job market for
(20:14):
power professionals, and that'severybody who's been laid off,
so there's an abundance ofsupply.
So being able to kind of cutthrough, either as a hiring
person, my biases or as thecandidate, my desire to get an
offer from somebody having anobjective, you know, validated
(20:40):
instrument to help, isinvaluable, because the cost of
a bad hire is real high.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, and imagine a scenario where you're hiring
like three or four people in thesame job.
So you have three user supportpositions open, right, and
they're all have differentbehavioral profiles and you have
lots of different projects andareas where they can shine and
need to take on.
So you can hire your fourpeople and like see how to
(21:10):
direct the work, because now youknow who's going to be more
driven and excited and engagedin that type of work.
So it's not, like I said, it'snot always a filter.
It's kind of just gives youinsight into how to best match
the job to be done to the personwho's predictably going to do
the best with it.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Where do you guys see ?
Where would you counsel peoplehow to not use an assessment?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
If you're using it as a filter.
I think that's wrong, becausepeople are complex and there's
lots more than just anassessment.
So if you're in an organizationthat isn't, If you're in an
organization that isn't fullytrained, I would say I can't
imagine a world where I wouldn'tuse one.
I don't think there's ascenario.
(21:59):
But it's more about training.
It's about the mindset and theopenness to assessments and
understanding the tool thatyou're using.
So there's a self-awareness.
You should take the assessmentyourself so you understand who
you are as well.
So you can, you can speak to it, but I can't you know other
(22:22):
than misuse.
I can't imagine a scenariowhere I wouldn't use one when
we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Can you define filtering versus how to use it
to prioritize candidates, orwhat's the distinction between
filtering and how you use it?
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Sure.
So when I say you prioritizecandidates, so so just say, you
know, we just opened a productmanager role and then we had 250
applicants, right.
So you're like, okay, what, howdo I manage and prioritize who
I'm going to talk to, becausethere's only so much time in a
(22:56):
day, right?
So you, you kind of look atresume and experience, then you
send assessments to your topcandidates that you want to talk
to and then you have a jobassessment.
So you're like, okay, I'm goingto take the first 20 that are
behaviorally driven or matchedto this job and we talk to them
first.
So it just helps you prioritizewhen those situations happen.
(23:19):
There's many times that you know.
I remember over the last 10years, we know we've been
through so many ups and downs inthe economy and in talent,
talent demand.
But there are times we post ajob and we're like three people
came in for, like you know,particular job when software
engineers were so hard to find,and then we're just use it as a
(23:42):
tool to help us have aconversation about like this is
what the job is, this is, youknow, what we're we've learned
about you like how are we goingto navigate that?
What we're we've learned aboutyou, like how are we going to
navigate that, etc.
And just being very open aboutit.
So, um, a filter would be likeoh, this person, their profile,
is not the one that is on thisjob assessment, so I'm not
(24:03):
talking to them.
That's just like hard stop.
And we were just talking aboutthis earlier, where I think a
lot of um, a lot of of HRdepartments or talent
acquisition and professionalslike filter out people on things
like a gap in employment or alocation where they might live
or some story they've made upbased on a resume.
(24:26):
And resumes are just one pieceof information, experience is
one piece and there's so muchmore so you know it's.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's interesting.
Let's talk about that becauseyou know you're right.
We were talking earlier aboutyou have more skills based
hiring and the resume, you know,is that the be-all, end-all
things?
I mean, first of all, you wantto about a biased document.
A resume is a highly biaseddocument by its very nature and
how it's intended to be used.
So there's that.
(24:56):
Can you talk to us a little bitabout why you're more an
advocate of skills-based and howyour fellow HR compatriots
could be thinking about beingmaybe a little less direct
experience You've done thisexact job for eight years and
(25:18):
how we're looking more forattributes than we are exact
experiences.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, and I'll use some real life examples.
And I do believe that there'sjobs where you need some
experience.
Like, in most cases you'regoing to hire a software
engineer, you need to know howto code in some cases.
So the example I'll use is thatwhen, when Mike and Daniel are
(25:45):
two, our president and CEOacquired the predictive index,
they we sat in a room, the threeof us, and we said what do we
want this company to be?
What do we want it to feel likefrom a culture perspective?
What do we value?
How do we look at performance?
And one of the things that weagreed to as we were going to
build the company was that wecared about curiosity and like,
(26:09):
is a person smart and curiousand want to learn?
Do they have a good attitude?
And we would not compromise onthose two things, but the only
thing we would compromise was ontheir job experience, and so we
use that.
It's been about 10 years.
(26:39):
There was a time where we weretrying to build our engineering
department and we're based in asuburb of Boston and there was
just no talent.
We weren't in the city, no onewanted to commute, we were, you
know, in-person company, um, andso we had to be creative.
So we hired people that werealready in our company to become
(26:59):
software engineers.
So our our current director ofengineering is a former product
marketer.
He came to us for partmarketing and he's interested in
coding and he he knew ourbusiness, he knew our science.
We're like we're gonna have toteach that to someone anyway.
So he wants to learn and that'show we ended up and that's to
(27:20):
this day we are able to be soadaptable and flexible and
maneuver with all of the changesand when you know, headwinds
that we hit from what'shappening outside of our control
.
Because that's the mindset of,like anyone, really, if they're
(27:40):
curious and want to learn, wecan teach them anything, and
that's how we take it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I want to just side note, there's a professor at
Wharton who leads all of theirHR school, if you will, named
Peter Capelli, and he's actuallywritten a book on this and it's
essentially around internaltalent marketplaces.
And you know, with all thelayoffs and everything that are
(28:06):
going on because we've gotpeople so rigidly identified as
I am a product marketer, rigidlyidentified as I am a product
marketer, therefore, and forwhatever reason, we can think we
can cut product marketing rightnow.
That you're just cutting looseof somebody who is curious is a
great culture, fit, greatattitude, actually curious in
the thing that we need people tobe good at.
(28:27):
And instead of letting thatperson go, we've actually
figured out a way to reskill,upskill them and keep a great
talent.
You know, at the risk of makinga sports analogy, like I can't
teach you to be tall, I can'tteach you to be fast, I can
teach you a position.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Right, yeah, I love that, and you know, that's how
we've been so successful, likein December our head of revenue
gave notice and then in Januaryour VP of sales followed him and
so we're.
We're like, what are we goingto do?
(29:07):
And we pulled in our VP ofproduct design.
It is now running our salesdepartment and it's been going
swimmingly.
So, like understanding who's onthe team and people you know
are driven like, this personhappens to be what we call a
maverick and like work inambiguity, loves curate, like to
take on new challenges, likesto fix things.
(29:28):
So it was like a perfect seguefor one for her and two for us.
And now we have.
You know, we didn't skip a beatwhere a lot of companies would
be like we have to go hiresomeone.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, and pay big bucks to go, lure them away from
whatever they're doing and it'slike why this person's already
in our company and knows us.
We trust them Right.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
And we had an answer for all the people on the sales
team we're going to be likewhat's going to happen to us,
right?
And if you're hiring someonenew, they're like I'm not going
to like that person, let me godip my my, my foot in the water
of a new job, right?
And we didn't.
We didn't skip a beat.
It was like the next day.
So they had, they had, theyknew exactly what was going to
happen and it was really workedout very well.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
No, that's awesome.
So you talked about thecultural interview and I wanted
to go back to that real quick,because that sounds like
something that's worth learninga little bit more about.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Sure, so we have.
I mentioned our values.
It's an acronym, threads.
It stands for teamwork, honesty, reliability, energy, action,
drive and scope, and each ofthose have definitions.
It's an acronym, threads.
It stands for teamwork, honest,honesty, reliability, energy,
action, drive and scope, andeach of those have definitions.
Um, so, depending on the job, orum, potentially um, whatever
(30:45):
the hiring team has asked you tokind of dig in on um, we'll
talk about things.
Those things because they'reimportant to us as a company,
like share with us a time whereyou've been a good teammate, or
what does a good teammate looklike to you?
And you know, I think a big onefor us is scope, especially as
you start getting to leadershipthings.
(31:05):
It's like, and scope for usmeans like, don't try and boil
the ocean and be able to callthe scope card.
And be able to call the scopecard and be able to say, like
I'm not going to be able to getto that, or if I do that, I
might not be able to get tosomething else.
What are we going to move?
And just getting some examplesof how a candidate might think
about those things and then alsogiving them experience of what
(31:26):
that looks like at our companyRight.
So, like we have one of ours,one of our values is like errors
of action are better thanerrors of inaction, and so we're
like we want people to beempowered and comfortable making
decisions when they don'tnecessarily have all the answers
.
We'd rather you make thedecision in most cases and we'll
(31:50):
fix it later.
We're like we're in assessments, we're not assessment, and
we're in talent optimization.
We're not doing surgery, so wehave a little bit of leeway here
.
But in most cases you're goingto make the right decision, so
go ahead and make it, and we'drather you take that error of
action versus waiting around andnot making a decision.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, so that's interesting, that would be, you
know.
Back to personality attributes,like do you need complete
information to be able to make adecision?
And you know there areassessments and I'm sure you all
do the same.
You know they can get at thingslike that and it's like well,
that's not our MO here andyou're going to be very
(32:29):
uncomfortable.
It's not even a judgment, it'sjust that person might feel
irresponsible putting somethingforward that's only 60 baked and
we'll figure the rest of it outin market, you know a little
bit of ship and fix and then,like you can't do that that's
terrible, like you're knowinglyshipping things out that aren't
perfect.
(32:50):
well, if we wait for perfect,we're never going to ship
anything out, and then, to theextent we get to perfect, then
we put it out there.
We figure out it's not perfect.
We just spend a ton of time andmoney aiming for something that
wasn't realized.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yep, yeah, and then you can actually have these
conversations, because we wouldstill want that person to work
at our company.
We'd be like, okay, but now weknow that, so we're like we'll
be able to help you.
Like Bob, I know that thisisn't like you don't have all
the information, we're going todo this.
How do you feel about it?
Like you can kind of getthrough that because you know
that that's the issue.
(33:23):
It's not that the person youknow isn't doing their job, and
sometimes it comes out as likeperformance Like Bob just won't
make a decision.
Performance Like Bob just won'tmake a decision.
It's like, no, bob doesn't havethe information that he's
comfortable with making thedecision.
And it's not about Bob, it'sabout the context of the
situation in which how Bob canmake a decision.
So, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Well, I was going to say it reminds me of a time when
and I think this again would beinstructive for listeners I
remember presenting the strategyof the company to our analyst
team and of course I was mostlythe author of some of this stuff
.
So it was brilliant.
And so I'm presenting all thisstuff and with a lot of
(34:03):
enthusiasm and whatever, and itwas just sort of like flatlining
with these 15 people that I waspresenting to and I'm like is
it because you don't care?
You're too dumb to get it?
And of course it was neitherone of those things.
The way that this particularpersonality type that makes them
(34:23):
amazing analysts is they need alittle bit of soak time.
They don't just viscerallyreact to things like I do, and
so I'm missing the visceralreaction because that's what I'm
comfortable doing.
And for them, again, it's likethat's not even in my nature to
do that, and if I was, it wouldbe again, not to overuse the
word irresponsible Yep, Ihaven't even really thought
(34:46):
about it yet.
I haven't kind of walked allthe way around this thing to
form an informed opinion.
So I'll see you tomorrow afterI've had time to think about it
and thankfully, one of the andshe was great a very young
analyst actually, you know, justa couple of years into her
career.
She's the one that provided methat insight.
Yeah, you can see I've carriedthis many years forward of not
(35:08):
everybody thinks the way that.
I think that's not a bad thing.
In fact, that's probablystarting to get into the
definition of diversity, right,that's a good thing, but I
appreciate what you're sharing.
Go back to the.
I think you also mentioned thatthe cultural interview is
provided by somebody who's noton the team.
Yep, and that reminds me ofLaszlo Bock, I think his book is
(35:31):
called Work Rules.
He's the former senior VP ofpeople at Google.
Yep, they put a lot on peoplenot in the department to make
the hiring decisions, and you'renot going that far I'm not
hearing you say that anyway, butsomebody that's got input who's
not on the sales team, andwe're hiring a salesperson.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Yeah, and I will tell you that.
You know we do have a nojackass policy and like that
doesn't get tripped.
So there have been times whereand it wouldn't just it's
typically not just a red flag inthe you know what we call the
threads interview, but there's alot of influence in that.
(36:13):
It's not just a nice to haveand a touchy feely type of thing
Like it's credible influenceover whether or not someone can
join, and so we do take time inworking with the people who do
those interviews and liketeaching them how to interview,
and these are the types ofthings you should look for.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Are you guys consensus based, or could
somebody be a dissenting voteand we still go with the other
candidate?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I mean it's the hiring manager, so that's the
decision maker, Like people opsdoesn't make the decision.
I mean we try and mediate adecision and get to a decision
and make sure we're thinkingabout the big picture, but it's
the hiring manager's decisionfor us For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
So we don't have to be unanimous.
Nope, Gotcha, Okay.
So I think I have some notionbecause we've talked about some
of these.
But specifically, Jackie, whenyou're interviewing somebody I
know this could change based onthe role or the level or
whatever but generally speaking,what are the attributes that
you're looking for in acandidate?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Sure, you know, I like to.
I like for someone to beprepared Like I think someone
shows up to the conversation andknows who they're talking to,
knows a little bit about thecompany.
I think that's important.
Again, curiosity, I thinkasking questions about the
(37:36):
company, the job, the manager,taking a real investment in the
people that they're working with, Because when they're
interviewing with me, unlessit's a senior leader at the
company, it's more of a you knowwhat's this company about
versus the job.
So I look for examples of whereyou know they can provide,
(38:08):
where they've been curious, howthey've made an impact, the work
they like to do, so really canbe self-aware.
I think self-awareness is a bigcomponent of a good hire,
because we're not all perfectand we do have interpersonal
issues at work no matter who weare, and we do have
interpersonal issues at work nomatter who we are, so being
aware of that.
So, like I said before, a goodattitude and curiosity above all
, I think are great.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Awesome.
And then, as we start to landthe plane here a little bit
again, there's a lot of HRprofessionals people you would
consider, peers listening tothis.
What if we're recording this inMarch of 2025,?
What advice do you have foryour HR colleagues?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, well, I think we started this by saying like
it is a really difficult placeto be as someone looking for a
job.
So a job seeker is really toughplace because there's so many
people out there and it's alittle bit uncertain.
So one my advice to you is putyourself in those shoes and make
(39:11):
sure that you're you're lookingmore beyond the resume.
There's so much talent outthere and you know diversity of
thought brings great ideas andinnovation to companies.
So look beyond the resume.
Don't fill in the gaps withstories you've made up like
(39:34):
there's a gap in the resume orsomething doesn't make sense.
Just take the time to goexplore that before just saying
no.
I think that what I hear a lotfrom candidates is a lot about
ghosting or not knowing.
Going in for an interview andnever hearing back.
(39:56):
Is set some expectations andgive candidates the experience
that they deserve as a candidateat your company and let them
know whether they're still acandidate or not.
It's not that hard.
And, yeah, I think, just beopen to more than just the
(40:17):
resume We've got so much talent.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was going to ask you about that, jackie, because
while I agree with that andskills-based hiring is certainly
in vogue to talk about rightnow, there's also sometimes a
reluctance to actually act onthat, because hiring by its very
nature is a risky business andif I go ahead and hire somebody
(40:41):
that doesn't have the degree,who doesn't have the exact
experience, and it doesn't workout, I've heard people say I'm
afraid of the blowback that Itook a risk.
And I probably should have justhired the safer candidate, at
least on paper, safer candidate.
How would you respond to thatconcern?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Well, I mean, hiring in general is a risk, and I do
agree like there are and I mighthave said this earlier that in
some cases it is if there'scandidates out there that have
the experience to do the job andthe skill sets.
By all means, that is importantand should be taken into
account.
But I think that you knowthere's lots to learn at any
(41:31):
company, no matter what.
So I think about Salesforceadministrator, for example.
You could be a Salesforceadministrator at one company and
go to another company with yourSalesforce experience and need
to go to training, because everysystem is so different on a
different version.
So it's like you're going tohave to teach them something,
(41:53):
and so what is it that you'regoing to teach them?
So, and sometimes, yeah, it isa risk and it doesn't always
work out.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Well, it's interesting to me because, you
know, it's like I want you to becurious, but I want you to have
done this exact job.
It's like, yeah, but I'mcurious, I want to learn new
stuff yeah, that's awesome, butI just don't want to fund your
education.
So I want.
But I think the moreenlightened approach is we want
people that want to continue togrow, that have a desire to grow
(42:24):
, that have a drive to continueto improve and get better and
learn new things.
I think it's going to be a muchbetter hire, not even in the
long run, I think probably inthe short run.
Then, hey, this guy's plug andplay today yeah, it's, he
already hit his ceiling and wecould have hired somebody else
and she, you know, we could havegone much further with her, you
(42:46):
know, because he's got moredrive and more capacity to
continue to grow in the role aswe grow.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, and I would say that in all of our senior
leadership positions, a PI, whenwe've hired externally, it's
always been someone who hasn'thad that job before.
So we hired our VP ofengineering, who was a director
of engineering at Wayfair.
So we wanted to find you know,this was the next job for them
(43:14):
versus the person who had doneit before yeah, versus the
person who had done it beforeyeah.
And I will say that's when wehire externally.
But the majority of our leaders, from you know directors to all
the way to myself, are allpromotions.
We've hired from within, we'vepromoted and developed from
(43:35):
within.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
And it keeps people on track everywhere in your
company because they see growth,yeah, growth, yeah.
Well, I can't think of a betternote to end on than growth.
Is there anything that wedidn't talk about, jackie, that
you just wanted to make surethat you shared before we?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
we let you get back to running a great company no, I
think that, um, you know, as Ithink about the future of work
and the future of, you know,hiring and it's going to be an
interesting, I think, next fewyears.
And you know, whatever toolsyou can use to help navigate and
(44:14):
set your organization up forsuccess, like, take advantage of
them.
I think AI is going to bepowerful.
So, you know, don't be, don'tbe a bystander in all of the
things that we have to help us,you know, make these critical
decisions for our companies,exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
And and you know I do agree, and we'll end on this
with Jim Collins like you know,job one is get the right people
on the bus and tools tools likethe Predictive Index can really
help companies make much betterdecisions.
So I really appreciate yourtime.
This was so much fun.
Like you've, clearly thoughtabout this a lot, I learned a
few new things, which I reallyappreciate, and I thank you and
(44:52):
I thank the listening audienceand again Bill Bannum at HR
Gazette and all the good folksat HR Chat.
Thank you so much for allowingme a few minutes to be the guest
host.
With that, jackie, I'll saythank you again.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Thank you so much.
I could talk about this fordays, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Well then, we'll have to have you back.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Okay, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (45:29):
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Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, president of
Career Club, and welcome toanother episode of HR Chat.
Thank you to my good friendBill Bannum and the folks at HR
Gazette for allowing me to guesthost every once in a while.
It's a pleasure to be with youguys today.
It's especially a pleasuretoday because I'm joined by
Jackie Duby, who is the ChiefPeople Officer at the Predictive
Index Company.
(00:44):
Jackie, welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Hi, thanks for having me so excited to be here today.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
No, I'm excited to have you.
We've gotten to know each otherover the past few weeks and
you've got some very interestingstories to share, I think, some
best practices and lessonslearned to share.
Clearly, the use of assessments, I think, is very interesting
to people and the PredictiveIndex is obviously one of the
name brand ones out there.
It's been around for a while.
I wanted to start off.
(01:11):
First of all.
Just let people get to know youa little bit as a human being
first.
Where are you calling in from?
Where do you live now?
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Sure, I'm calling in from the great small state of
Rhode Island.
So I live in a little sailingcity called Newport, rhode
Island, and I've been here forgosh more than half my life, so
I went to college in RhodeIsland and never left.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So, having been to Newport, that is a beautiful,
beautiful spot.
So you were born and raised inRhode Island, or?
Speaker 3 (01:43):
not.
Nope, I was born actually inBasel, Switzerland.
My parents were transferredthere for two years and no, I'm
not a dual citizen Everyonealways asks.
But I did grow up in the alsosmall great state of New Jersey.
So I went to college, as Imentioned, up in Rhode Island
and kind of never left this area.
So I love it?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
And when you're not being an amazing chief people
officer, what do we find youdoing?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So you'll find me doing a couple of things.
So I have a wonderful family.
I have two girls, one incollege and one in high school.
So still in transferring themaround, so we don't have a
license for the younger one, foranother for like 18 days.
So we're counting those and butI'm in, I run.
So I've run five marathons,multiple, multiple half
(02:29):
marathons, and I am not anamazing tennis player, but gosh
darn do I try.
So those are the things you'llfind me doing.
Where's the Tennis Hall of Fame?
Is it around you?
It is, and actually that's myclub.
So it is about a mile and ahalf from my house.
It's right up on MemorialBoulevard in Newport, so you
should visit when you're around.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
So if you ever find yourself in Cincinnati, you need
to come to the tennis eventthat we have every year in
August.
It's a tune-up for the US Open,as you probably know, and
everybody's here every year.
It's very very fun.
I have actually always wantedto go to the Cincinnati Open, so
(03:10):
maybe one year it's so hard toleave.
Newport in the summer, though,trust me, you'll find me on your
doorstep.
All right, let's get into it sovery quickly.
Maybe this is the proper way toset the stage.
Do you mind just explainingjust a little bit about the
predictive index for people whomay not be familiar with it, and
then I don't want to spend aton of time on that.
We'll get into your processesand things, but just for
somebody who may not havefamiliarity at all with it.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
Sure.
So the Predictive Index is atalent optimization platform.
So we have a behavioralassessment, a job assessment, a
cognitive assessment, but it'smuch more than that behavioral
assessment, a job assessment, acognitive assessment but it's
much more than that.
So the platform, the science,technology and services.
We have a network of partnersthat help service the talent
(03:53):
optimization, but it's allaround helping companies to hire
the right people, inspiringthem to perform, using the data
to design, winning, performingteams and then continually
measuring that engagement.
So the platform does all ofthose things.
I do think it might be helpfulto just give some perspective on
(04:13):
how I came to be at thePredictive Index.
That'd be amazing.
Yeah, so I've been in HR forover 25 years, so since I
graduated from college and backin, let's see, back in 2009,.
I was in the job hunt.
The company that I had justworked for filed for bankruptcy
(04:36):
and I bumped into Mike Sani,who's the current CEO of the
Predictive Index, and at thetime, he was taking over as a
CEO for a startup which had ninepeople for it, and he had just
used the Predictive Index forthe first time at his previous
investment and brought it overto this new organization, and I
(04:59):
had never used it.
I never really used assessmentsin any of my practices and Mike
was like we have nine people,we're going to grow this company
, we to do it intentionally, andthis is one way in which you
can make sure that you areintentionally hiring the right
people to do the job that you'retrying to get them to do Now.
Back then, the technology waslike way different.
(05:21):
It was just an assessment andand you needed a consultant to
interpret it.
We've come very far from there,but the science was so powerful
in decoding humans and reallygetting understanding what
drives them and understandingmore about jobs that when I left
that company, it was arequirement for me to take
wherever I went.
(05:41):
So I went to another startupcompany as a change agent.
We sold that company.
Then I started my ownconsulting practice and was
lucky enough to have a firstclient that used the predictive
index, and my network justexpanded from there.
And then, when Mike, my formerCEO, actually bought the
(06:02):
predictive index in 2014 withhis partner, they became a
client of mine.
They knew they were going tochange the company.
They needed to hire a wholebunch of new people.
They knew the type of culturethey wanted to build and then a
year later I found my dream joband I've been here for 10 years
as we've kind of grown thecompany.
So it's really not necessarilyI love PI, but it is about
(06:25):
understanding humans and whatdrives them and the power that
has we're so so many times, youknow, as HR people or leaders in
businesses, we're alwayslooking at the resume Like what
did they do before?
Because that's going to predictwhat I want, predict what I
want them to do, and that'sactually not the case.
So I just found the science tobe so powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
No, well, first of all, I appreciate you saying
that context, because you'reright.
I mean, you were a user of itand became a believer in it
before you worked there, whichmakes this much more than a job,
I'm sure.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
It's a dream job.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You get to share the good news, okay, you get to
share the good news, okay.
So I do want to say one otherthing, since we're speaking to a
lot of HR people.
You use the word or the phraselike decoding human beings, and
I was given a talk a couple ofweeks ago and you know the CEO
(07:22):
has got strategy and all thiskind of complicated stuff.
The CFO has got, you know,doing everything with all the
accounting and finance and allthat's pretty complicated.
You've got the IT person.
Lord knows they're dealing withartificial intelligence and
whatever else.
Hr people easily have thehardest job because you've got
(07:47):
the most complex thing thatyou're trying to understand,
manage, help, optimize to useyour earlier word and like
there's nothing more complicatedin the universe than a human
being and that's what HR peopleare charged with.
So tons of respect, I guess, isbasically, and anything that
you can use to help understandthat.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And you know, on that note, like we talk about all
the time is that in every otherarea you mentioned, a CEO has a
strategy and uses all of thisdata and metrics to predict or
measure their outcomes.
And so, for so long, hr wasnever tied to data or use data
to manage their outcomes.
And so, for so long, hr wasnever tied to data or use data
(08:28):
to manage their business.
And there's data out there onpeople, on engagement, and we
should be using that to measureour outcomes and set our goals
in place when we have it, youknow, and there's ways to get it
.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well, okay, so you're right.
And whether it's modeling fromthe CEO's perspective Well, okay
, so you're right.
And whether it's modeling fromthe CEO's perspective, modeling
like if we were entered thismarket, what would happen, how
much resources we'd have to putagainst it, what's the expected
return?
The CFO is always modelingfinancial outcomes and changes
in the budget and revenue's notcoming in the way that we
(09:01):
thought.
So how do we have to?
They live on modeling.
Your marketing people live onmodeling.
If we launch this campaign,what's the likely response rate?
That's how it can translateinto sales, whatever.
And you're right, peopleanalytics from a predictive way,
I think.
Maybe some descriptive, right,but predictive is a world away
(09:23):
from descriptive.
Descriptive, right, butpredictive is a world away from
descriptive.
And you know, if the sciencebears it out, being able to
predict how someone is going toperform, you know.
So let's use that as alaunching point with that.
So when we, when we firstgetting to know each other, you
were describing for me kind of abefore and an after that you
guys had a previous, you know,hiring and interview process and
(09:48):
that's actually changed andimproved.
Can you kind of give the beforeand the after and we'll kind of
get into the guts of it as yougo.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Sure, and I feel like this, a lot of companies fall
into this cycle of one likeyou're interviewing the
candidate, it is your choice,right, and you're like no,
they're interviewing you too.
So that's a.
You know, a good first step isto realize it's a, it's a mutual
interview.
(10:16):
But so our interview processhas always been to use
assessments.
We use that at the verybeginning of our assessment of
our interview process to helpnot filter candidates, but to
identify which ones will mostlikely succeed in the job based
on what we're asking them to do.
And we do that through abehavioral assessment, job
(10:37):
assessment.
So we've always done that.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview which consists
or excuse me, an HR interview,which consists of, like just the
screening, making sure likesalary and all that kind of
stuff match.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview which
consists or excuse me, an HRinterview which consists of,
like, just the screening, makingsure like salary and all that
kind of stuff match.
And then we would have a hiringmanager interview, and then
we'd get to the super day, andthe super day was like a free
for all of who wants to meetthis candidate.
(10:57):
You know how, what questionsyou want to ask and a candidate
would come in, sometimes forlike a full day, a full day.
You want to ask, and acandidate would come in
sometimes for like a full day, afull day.
Now, this was more onsite,where, where the pre COVID and
you know, which is great, youget to know them, they get to
know you.
We weren't very structured inensuring that the same people
weren't asking the samequestions.
(11:17):
So, imagine you're a candidateand you go to, like I don't know
, four or five interviews andyou start with the same six
things every single time.
You're like, oh my gosh, I wishthey would just talk to each
other.
And so we took a lot of time ingetting candidate feedback on
their experience.
And you know, throughGlastonbury Reviews we took an
(11:39):
evaluation.
We had the candidates fill outan evaluation after their
interview and you know, even thecandidates that got the job
felt like that was a lot and itwasn't necessarily always the
most productive.
And so over time, through lotsof iterations, we've ended up in
(12:01):
a more streamlined processwhere the maximum amount of
super day time can be four hoursmax, even though it's on Zoom,
and if it's on different days,four hours maximum.
We get a hiring team together.
We talk about who's askingwhich questions.
There's interview guides interms of who's screening for
(12:22):
what.
And then one of the mostvaluable interview portions that
we met that we introduced waswhat we call like a culture
interview.
So we have our we can talkabout this later but we have our
cultural values defined.
It's an acronym, it stands forthreads, and so we train a group
of employees that volunteer inhow to do this cultural
(12:45):
interview based on our corevalues.
And they get to spend some timewith a candidate, and the key
here is that the person who'sdoing the culture interview is
not on the team that thecandidate is interviewing for,
and this really gives thecandidate more insight into what
is this company that I amjoining versus this team.
The team is important, but it'salso like what does it look like
(13:06):
outside of the people I'll beworking with?
Am I hearing the same things?
And it really gives thecandidate a chance to ask some
more general questions from anemployee that just works at the
company, and we found this to bea huge benefit for both the
candidate and for us.
And then, at the end of the, ifanyone makes it to this four
(13:26):
hour interview, we send them agift card afterwards for a
coffee, for spending time withus, to really just thank them,
because they are taking sometime out of their day to spend
with us, and we appreciate that.
So so, yeah, so it's been anevolution over, you know, six or
seven years in terms of gettingit right, but we really think
that we are efficient.
(13:47):
We give a good experience tothe candidate.
We always tell them when we'regoing to get back to them.
You know we talk about thiswhite glove experience.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
So OK, where did four hours come?
Speaker 3 (13:58):
from.
So it was a lot of testing tomake sure, one that we had the
right amount of time to get theinformation that we needed, and
then a lot of candidate feedbackaround.
What did they expect was toomuch time to spend in an
interview, and it doesn't alwaysreach four right.
(14:21):
Sometimes there's just, youknow, two or three people that
the person might need to meetwith, but four was the maximum.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I'll tell you what.
Just from people who know meoutside of this podcast know
that I devote a decent amount oftime to helping job seekers,
and you know one of the keythings is just like these really
brutal interview processes andyou know what might feel like a
super day to you.
(14:48):
Might be a super, not great dayfrom experience perspective.
I mean seriously.
And you know to your point,like, is there a process?
Why did I just answer thatquestion for the third time?
I, like I said, do you talk toeach other?
But what I think I would liketo kind of dial into, because
(15:09):
people are using assessments andI do want to talk about the
predictive index in particular,but you said that you use the
instrument on the front end,right, not as a filter, but as a
way of kind of you know, makingsure this person's going to be
a good fit for the role that weneed.
(15:29):
How do you use the assessmentin the interview process?
How does that shape the kindsof things that you might want to
learn and who's asking thosethings?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Sure, so typically I'll just answer the last
question first.
Sure, so typically I'll justanswer the last question first.
Typically it's the hiringmanager that will talk more
about like behavioral fit forthe job with the candidate, and
so one of the great tools thatwe have also is this job
assessment, and what that doesis it sends out a survey to all
(16:01):
the stakeholders for the job.
So just say that you're mymanager or you're the hiring
manager, so you would take it,and then maybe a key stakeholder
in finance would take it, andthen anyone on the hiring team
or not anyone, but some peopleon the hiring team and that
comes back.
One it shows are all of thepeople that are going to be
(16:22):
interviewing this person lookingfor the same thing?
Yes, right, because sometimesyou're like this person is not
going to drive this processforward and you're like I wasn't
expecting them to.
They're going to execute onthings I asked them to.
So now you're interviewing fortwo different things and the
interview is over, right?
So one on the forefront ofhiring it gets everyone aligned
to what is this job, not eventhe person like what's the job.
(16:46):
So once the job is defined,then you can say to the
candidates.
So take a behavioral assessmentand the software will kind of
just give are they matched ornot?
And there's a numerical matchof how close they are from a
behavioral to job fit.
And so just say that in thisjob you're in a finance role and
(17:08):
detail, orientation, rulefollowing and process following
are really important to this job, and you get a candidate that
might not have great attentionto detail but has know, has
everything else that you'relooking for, is curious, has
good attitude, has got someexperience.
(17:28):
So you're like, okay, let mefind more out about this, and so
then you can, the software willdo this.
But the questioning around thiscomes to like, hey, this job
requires, you know, a lot ofattention to detail.
There's, you know it's reallyimportant to get the numbers
right.
Can you tell me about a timewhere you had to dig into the
details and how did you feelabout that?
(17:50):
Is this something that woulddrain you?
Because we can all do jobs thatare outside of how we're wired,
it's in, how we're driven, it'sjust like, how sustainable is
it?
Does it exhaust you?
And so I think it's digging deepin there, but even knowing what
questions to ask are soimportant, because sometimes
you're like and this is why wedo it at the beginning too
(18:10):
because, just say, you're hiringfor a sales job that requires
lots of social interaction andextroversion.
Everyone is going to fall inlove with someone who's social
and can hold a conversation.
Right, you're like this isgreat, but like they might not
be able to put pressure on toclose a deal or negotiate.
But if you've already kind offallen in love with them because
(18:31):
you had this great conversationand connection, you might not.
You might be considering, ohwell, they'll figure that out
and it's actually they're notgoing to be a successful
salesperson.
So it's those types of insightsthat just help you ask the
question.
So it's those types of insightsthat just help you ask the
question to learn more.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
So I'm a big fan of assessments and I have used
predictive index in the past andit's very, very, very good.
And a couple of things thatcome to mind and I just think
about to your earlier point,like the biases.
Like, I just like Jackie.
She's so nice, you know, she'sfriendly.
I think she'd be a greatculture fit here and, you know,
(19:09):
if our flight got canceled she'dbe a fun person to talk to, you
know.
So yeah, let's go.
And so we have our biases.
There's also a consistency kindof a thing, right, because I
might accidentally, luckily,maybe intentionally, uncover the
(19:29):
fact that details is not yourthing.
You're an amazing strategicthinker but you know, actually
getting into theoperationalizing of those things
is not your lane as much.
And you're right, when we cando stuff, we can kind of push
through, but it's exhausting andto do it repeatedly there's
going that's going to come at acost, right, either the quality
(19:52):
of work, burnout of the person,whatever.
And you also have people fromthe candidate side.
I really need a job.
Right now I'm going to saywhatever I need to say to get
hired I need a job.
This is a very tough job market.
As you and I record this, thisis not an easy job market for
(20:14):
power professionals, and that'severybody who's been laid off,
so there's an abundance ofsupply.
So being able to kind of cutthrough, either as a hiring
person, my biases or as thecandidate, my desire to get an
offer from somebody having anobjective, you know, validated
(20:40):
instrument to help, isinvaluable, because the cost of
a bad hire is real high.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yeah, and imagine a scenario where you're hiring
like three or four people in thesame job.
So you have three user supportpositions open, right, and
they're all have differentbehavioral profiles and you have
lots of different projects andareas where they can shine and
need to take on.
So you can hire your fourpeople and like see how to
(21:10):
direct the work, because now youknow who's going to be more
driven and excited and engagedin that type of work.
So it's not, like I said, it'snot always a filter.
It's kind of just gives youinsight into how to best match
the job to be done to the personwho's predictably going to do
the best with it.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Where do you guys see ?
Where would you counsel peoplehow to not use an assessment?
Speaker 3 (21:39):
If you're using it as a filter.
I think that's wrong, becausepeople are complex and there's
lots more than just anassessment.
So if you're in an organizationthat isn't, If you're in an
organization that isn't fullytrained, I would say I can't
imagine a world where I wouldn'tuse one.
I don't think there's ascenario.
(21:59):
But it's more about training.
It's about the mindset and theopenness to assessments and
understanding the tool thatyou're using.
So there's a self-awareness.
You should take the assessmentyourself so you understand who
you are as well.
So you can, you can speak to it, but I can't you know other
(22:22):
than misuse.
I can't imagine a scenariowhere I wouldn't use one when
we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Can you define filtering versus how to use it
to prioritize candidates, orwhat's the distinction between
filtering and how you use it?
Speaker 3 (22:36):
Sure.
So when I say you prioritizecandidates, so so just say, you
know, we just opened a productmanager role and then we had 250
applicants, right.
So you're like, okay, what, howdo I manage and prioritize who
I'm going to talk to, becausethere's only so much time in a
(22:56):
day, right?
So you, you kind of look atresume and experience, then you
send assessments to your topcandidates that you want to talk
to and then you have a jobassessment.
So you're like, okay, I'm goingto take the first 20 that are
behaviorally driven or matchedto this job and we talk to them
first.
So it just helps you prioritizewhen those situations happen.
(23:19):
There's many times that you know.
I remember over the last 10years, we know we've been
through so many ups and downs inthe economy and in talent,
talent demand.
But there are times we post ajob and we're like three people
came in for, like you know,particular job when software
engineers were so hard to find,and then we're just use it as a
(23:42):
tool to help us have aconversation about like this is
what the job is, this is, youknow, what we're we've learned
about you like how are we goingto navigate that?
What we're we've learned aboutyou, like how are we going to
navigate that, etc.
And just being very open aboutit.
So, um, a filter would be likeoh, this person, their profile,
is not the one that is on thisjob assessment, so I'm not
(24:03):
talking to them.
That's just like hard stop.
And we were just talking aboutthis earlier, where I think a
lot of um, a lot of of HRdepartments or talent
acquisition and professionalslike filter out people on things
like a gap in employment or alocation where they might live
or some story they've made upbased on a resume.
(24:26):
And resumes are just one pieceof information, experience is
one piece and there's so muchmore so you know it's.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
It's interesting.
Let's talk about that becauseyou know you're right.
We were talking earlier aboutyou have more skills based
hiring and the resume, you know,is that the be-all, end-all
things?
I mean, first of all, you wantto about a biased document.
A resume is a highly biaseddocument by its very nature and
how it's intended to be used.
So there's that.
(24:56):
Can you talk to us a little bitabout why you're more an
advocate of skills-based and howyour fellow HR compatriots
could be thinking about beingmaybe a little less direct
experience You've done thisexact job for eight years and
(25:18):
how we're looking more forattributes than we are exact
experiences.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, and I'll use some real life examples.
And I do believe that there'sjobs where you need some
experience.
Like, in most cases you'regoing to hire a software
engineer, you need to know howto code in some cases.
So the example I'll use is thatwhen, when Mike and Daniel are
(25:45):
two, our president and CEOacquired the predictive index,
they we sat in a room, the threeof us, and we said what do we
want this company to be?
What do we want it to feel likefrom a culture perspective?
What do we value?
How do we look at performance?
And one of the things that weagreed to as we were going to
build the company was that wecared about curiosity and like,
(26:09):
is a person smart and curiousand want to learn?
Do they have a good attitude?
And we would not compromise onthose two things, but the only
thing we would compromise was ontheir job experience, and so we
use that.
It's been about 10 years.
(26:39):
There was a time where we weretrying to build our engineering
department and we're based in asuburb of Boston and there was
just no talent.
We weren't in the city, no onewanted to commute, we were, you
know, in-person company, um, andso we had to be creative.
So we hired people that werealready in our company to become
(26:59):
software engineers.
So our our current director ofengineering is a former product
marketer.
He came to us for partmarketing and he's interested in
coding and he he knew ourbusiness, he knew our science.
We're like we're gonna have toteach that to someone anyway.
So he wants to learn and that'show we ended up and that's to
(27:20):
this day we are able to be soadaptable and flexible and
maneuver with all of the changesand when you know, headwinds
that we hit from what'shappening outside of our control
.
Because that's the mindset of,like anyone, really, if they're
(27:40):
curious and want to learn, wecan teach them anything, and
that's how we take it.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
I want to just side note, there's a professor at
Wharton who leads all of theirHR school, if you will, named
Peter Capelli, and he's actuallywritten a book on this and it's
essentially around internaltalent marketplaces.
And you know, with all thelayoffs and everything that are
(28:06):
going on because we've gotpeople so rigidly identified as
I am a product marketer, rigidlyidentified as I am a product
marketer, therefore, and forwhatever reason, we can think we
can cut product marketing rightnow.
That you're just cutting looseof somebody who is curious is a
great culture, fit, greatattitude, actually curious in
the thing that we need people tobe good at.
(28:27):
And instead of letting thatperson go, we've actually
figured out a way to reskill,upskill them and keep a great
talent.
You know, at the risk of makinga sports analogy, like I can't
teach you to be tall, I can'tteach you to be fast, I can
teach you a position.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Right, yeah, I love that, and you know, that's how
we've been so successful, likein December our head of revenue
gave notice and then in Januaryour VP of sales followed him and
so we're.
We're like, what are we goingto do?
(29:07):
And we pulled in our VP ofproduct design.
It is now running our salesdepartment and it's been going
swimmingly.
So, like understanding who's onthe team and people you know
are driven like, this personhappens to be what we call a
maverick and like work inambiguity, loves curate, like to
take on new challenges, likesto fix things.
(29:28):
So it was like a perfect seguefor one for her and two for us.
And now we have.
You know, we didn't skip a beatwhere a lot of companies would
be like we have to go hiresomeone.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Yeah, and pay big bucks to go, lure them away from
whatever they're doing and it'slike why this person's already
in our company and knows us.
We trust them Right.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
And we had an answer for all the people on the sales
team we're going to be likewhat's going to happen to us,
right?
And if you're hiring someonenew, they're like I'm not going
to like that person, let me godip my my, my foot in the water
of a new job, right?
And we didn't.
We didn't skip a beat.
It was like the next day.
So they had, they had, theyknew exactly what was going to
happen and it was really workedout very well.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
No, that's awesome.
So you talked about thecultural interview and I wanted
to go back to that real quick,because that sounds like
something that's worth learninga little bit more about.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Sure, so we have.
I mentioned our values.
It's an acronym, threads.
It stands for teamwork, honesty, reliability, energy, action,
drive and scope, and each ofthose have definitions.
It's an acronym, threads.
It stands for teamwork, honest,honesty, reliability, energy,
action, drive and scope, andeach of those have definitions.
Um, so, depending on the job, orum, potentially um, whatever
(30:45):
the hiring team has asked you tokind of dig in on um, we'll
talk about things.
Those things because they'reimportant to us as a company,
like share with us a time whereyou've been a good teammate, or
what does a good teammate looklike to you?
And you know, I think a big onefor us is scope, especially as
you start getting to leadershipthings.
(31:05):
It's like, and scope for usmeans like, don't try and boil
the ocean and be able to callthe scope card.
And be able to call the scopecard and be able to say, like
I'm not going to be able to getto that, or if I do that, I
might not be able to get tosomething else.
What are we going to move?
And just getting some examplesof how a candidate might think
about those things and then alsogiving them experience of what
(31:26):
that looks like at our companyRight.
So, like we have one of ours,one of our values is like errors
of action are better thanerrors of inaction, and so we're
like we want people to beempowered and comfortable making
decisions when they don'tnecessarily have all the answers
.
We'd rather you make thedecision in most cases and we'll
(31:50):
fix it later.
We're like we're in assessments, we're not assessment, and
we're in talent optimization.
We're not doing surgery, so wehave a little bit of leeway here
.
But in most cases you're goingto make the right decision, so
go ahead and make it, and we'drather you take that error of
action versus waiting around andnot making a decision.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Yeah, so that's interesting, that would be, you
know.
Back to personality attributes,like do you need complete
information to be able to make adecision?
And you know there areassessments and I'm sure you all
do the same.
You know they can get at thingslike that and it's like well,
that's not our MO here andyou're going to be very
(32:29):
uncomfortable.
It's not even a judgment, it'sjust that person might feel
irresponsible putting somethingforward that's only 60 baked and
we'll figure the rest of it outin market, you know a little
bit of ship and fix and then,like you can't do that that's
terrible, like you're knowinglyshipping things out that aren't
perfect.
(32:50):
well, if we wait for perfect,we're never going to ship
anything out, and then, to theextent we get to perfect, then
we put it out there.
We figure out it's not perfect.
We just spend a ton of time andmoney aiming for something that
wasn't realized.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Yep, yeah, and then you can actually have these
conversations, because we wouldstill want that person to work
at our company.
We'd be like, okay, but now weknow that, so we're like we'll
be able to help you.
Like Bob, I know that thisisn't like you don't have all
the information, we're going todo this.
How do you feel about it?
Like you can kind of getthrough that because you know
that that's the issue.
(33:23):
It's not that the person youknow isn't doing their job, and
sometimes it comes out as likeperformance Like Bob just won't
make a decision.
Performance Like Bob just won'tmake a decision.
It's like, no, bob doesn't havethe information that he's
comfortable with making thedecision.
And it's not about Bob, it'sabout the context of the
situation in which how Bob canmake a decision.
So, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Well, I was going to say it reminds me of a time when
and I think this again would beinstructive for listeners I
remember presenting the strategyof the company to our analyst
team and of course I was mostlythe author of some of this stuff
.
So it was brilliant.
And so I'm presenting all thisstuff and with a lot of
(34:03):
enthusiasm and whatever, and itwas just sort of like flatlining
with these 15 people that I waspresenting to and I'm like is
it because you don't care?
You're too dumb to get it?
And of course it was neitherone of those things.
The way that this particularpersonality type that makes them
(34:23):
amazing analysts is they need alittle bit of soak time.
They don't just viscerallyreact to things like I do, and
so I'm missing the visceralreaction because that's what I'm
comfortable doing.
And for them, again, it's likethat's not even in my nature to
do that, and if I was, it wouldbe again, not to overuse the
word irresponsible Yep, Ihaven't even really thought
(34:46):
about it yet.
I haven't kind of walked allthe way around this thing to
form an informed opinion.
So I'll see you tomorrow afterI've had time to think about it
and thankfully, one of the andshe was great a very young
analyst actually, you know, justa couple of years into her
career.
She's the one that provided methat insight.
Yeah, you can see I've carriedthis many years forward of not
(35:08):
everybody thinks the way that.
I think that's not a bad thing.
In fact, that's probablystarting to get into the
definition of diversity, right,that's a good thing, but I
appreciate what you're sharing.
Go back to the.
I think you also mentioned thatthe cultural interview is
provided by somebody who's noton the team.
Yep, and that reminds me ofLaszlo Bock, I think his book is
(35:31):
called Work Rules.
He's the former senior VP ofpeople at Google.
Yep, they put a lot on peoplenot in the department to make
the hiring decisions, and you'renot going that far I'm not
hearing you say that anyway, butsomebody that's got input who's
not on the sales team, andwe're hiring a salesperson.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Yeah, and I will tell you that.
You know we do have a nojackass policy and like that
doesn't get tripped.
So there have been times whereand it wouldn't just it's
typically not just a red flag inthe you know what we call the
threads interview, but there's alot of influence in that.
(36:13):
It's not just a nice to haveand a touchy feely type of thing
Like it's credible influenceover whether or not someone can
join, and so we do take time inworking with the people who do
those interviews and liketeaching them how to interview,
and these are the types ofthings you should look for.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Are you guys consensus based, or could
somebody be a dissenting voteand we still go with the other
candidate?
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, I mean it's the hiring manager, so that's the
decision maker, Like people opsdoesn't make the decision.
I mean we try and mediate adecision and get to a decision
and make sure we're thinkingabout the big picture, but it's
the hiring manager's decisionfor us For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
So we don't have to be unanimous.
Nope, Gotcha, Okay.
So I think I have some notionbecause we've talked about some
of these.
But specifically, Jackie, whenyou're interviewing somebody I
know this could change based onthe role or the level or
whatever but generally speaking,what are the attributes that
you're looking for in acandidate?
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Sure, you know, I like to.
I like for someone to beprepared Like I think someone
shows up to the conversation andknows who they're talking to,
knows a little bit about thecompany.
I think that's important.
Again, curiosity, I thinkasking questions about the
(37:36):
company, the job, the manager,taking a real investment in the
people that they're working with, Because when they're
interviewing with me, unlessit's a senior leader at the
company, it's more of a you knowwhat's this company about
versus the job.
So I look for examples of whereyou know they can provide,
(38:08):
where they've been curious, howthey've made an impact, the work
they like to do, so really canbe self-aware.
I think self-awareness is a bigcomponent of a good hire,
because we're not all perfectand we do have interpersonal
issues at work no matter who weare, and we do have
interpersonal issues at work nomatter who we are, so being
aware of that.
So, like I said before, a goodattitude and curiosity above all
, I think are great.
Speaker 2 (38:29):
Awesome.
And then, as we start to landthe plane here a little bit
again, there's a lot of HRprofessionals people you would
consider, peers listening tothis.
What if we're recording this inMarch of 2025,?
What advice do you have foryour HR colleagues?
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, well, I think we started this by saying like
it is a really difficult placeto be as someone looking for a
job.
So a job seeker is really toughplace because there's so many
people out there and it's alittle bit uncertain.
So one my advice to you is putyourself in those shoes and make
(39:11):
sure that you're you're lookingmore beyond the resume.
There's so much talent outthere and you know diversity of
thought brings great ideas andinnovation to companies.
So look beyond the resume.
Don't fill in the gaps withstories you've made up like
(39:34):
there's a gap in the resume orsomething doesn't make sense.
Just take the time to goexplore that before just saying
no.
I think that what I hear a lotfrom candidates is a lot about
ghosting or not knowing.
Going in for an interview andnever hearing back.
(39:56):
Is set some expectations andgive candidates the experience
that they deserve as a candidateat your company and let them
know whether they're still acandidate or not.
It's not that hard.
And, yeah, I think, just beopen to more than just the
(40:17):
resume We've got so much talent.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
I was going to ask you about that, jackie, because
while I agree with that andskills-based hiring is certainly
in vogue to talk about rightnow, there's also sometimes a
reluctance to actually act onthat, because hiring by its very
nature is a risky business andif I go ahead and hire somebody
(40:41):
that doesn't have the degree,who doesn't have the exact
experience, and it doesn't workout, I've heard people say I'm
afraid of the blowback that Itook a risk.
And I probably should have justhired the safer candidate, at
least on paper, safer candidate.
How would you respond to thatconcern?
Speaker 3 (41:03):
Well, I mean, hiring in general is a risk, and I do
agree like there are and I mighthave said this earlier that in
some cases it is if there'scandidates out there that have
the experience to do the job andthe skill sets.
By all means, that is importantand should be taken into
account.
But I think that you knowthere's lots to learn at any
(41:31):
company, no matter what.
So I think about Salesforceadministrator, for example.
You could be a Salesforceadministrator at one company and
go to another company with yourSalesforce experience and need
to go to training, because everysystem is so different on a
different version.
So it's like you're going tohave to teach them something,
(41:53):
and so what is it that you'regoing to teach them?
So, and sometimes, yeah, it isa risk and it doesn't always
work out.
Speaker 2 (42:02):
Well, it's interesting to me because, you
know, it's like I want you to becurious, but I want you to have
done this exact job.
It's like, yeah, but I'mcurious, I want to learn new
stuff yeah, that's awesome, butI just don't want to fund your
education.
So I want.
But I think the moreenlightened approach is we want
people that want to continue togrow, that have a desire to grow
(42:24):
, that have a drive to continueto improve and get better and
learn new things.
I think it's going to be a muchbetter hire, not even in the
long run, I think probably inthe short run.
Then, hey, this guy's plug andplay today yeah, it's, he
already hit his ceiling and wecould have hired somebody else
and she, you know, we could havegone much further with her, you
(42:46):
know, because he's got moredrive and more capacity to
continue to grow in the role aswe grow.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, and I would say that in all of our senior
leadership positions, a PI, whenwe've hired externally, it's
always been someone who hasn'thad that job before.
So we hired our VP ofengineering, who was a director
of engineering at Wayfair.
So we wanted to find you know,this was the next job for them
(43:14):
versus the person who had doneit before yeah, versus the
person who had done it beforeyeah.
And I will say that's when wehire externally.
But the majority of our leaders, from you know directors to all
the way to myself, are allpromotions.
We've hired from within, we'vepromoted and developed from
(43:35):
within.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
And it keeps people on track everywhere in your
company because they see growth,yeah, growth, yeah.
Well, I can't think of a betternote to end on than growth.
Is there anything that wedidn't talk about, jackie, that
you just wanted to make surethat you shared before we?
Speaker 3 (43:48):
we let you get back to running a great company no, I
think that, um, you know, as Ithink about the future of work
and the future of, you know,hiring and it's going to be an
interesting, I think, next fewyears.
And you know, whatever toolsyou can use to help navigate and
(44:14):
set your organization up forsuccess, like, take advantage of
them.
I think AI is going to bepowerful.
So, you know, don't be, don'tbe a bystander in all of the
things that we have to help us,you know, make these critical
decisions for our companies,exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
And and you know I do agree, and we'll end on this
with Jim Collins like you know,job one is get the right people
on the bus and tools tools likethe Predictive Index can really
help companies make much betterdecisions.
So I really appreciate yourtime.
This was so much fun.
Like you've, clearly thoughtabout this a lot, I learned a
few new things, which I reallyappreciate, and I thank you and
(44:52):
I thank the listening audienceand again Bill Bannum at HR
Gazette and all the good folksat HR Chat.
Thank you so much for allowingme a few minutes to be the guest
host.
With that, jackie, I'll saythank you again.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
Thank you so much.
I could talk about this fordays, so appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Well then, we'll have to have you back.
Speaker 3 (45:08):
Okay, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (45:29):
This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by
Deal.
Are you looking for an all-inThanks for watching.
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