October 23, 2025 • 27 mins
Change doesn’t fail because people are stubborn; it fails because the rollout forgets how humans actually change. In this HRchat episode, Bill Banham sits down with Georgie Cooke, Learning and Change Strategist co-founder of Lima Delta, to unpack why so many transformations lose steam and how to design plans that stick.
From status quo bias and risk aversion to the quiet power of team norms, Georgie explains the psychology that shapes every initiative and shows how to turn insight into action.
Tune in to hear a clear breakdown of the Inspire, Train, Sustain framework and why sequence matters. Inspire builds urgency with a story that balances opportunity with the cost of staying the same. Train turns ideas into decisions through scenario-based practice and feedback that builds real capability. Sustain locks in new habits with aligned processes, incentives, communities of practice, and ongoing communication that respects the forgetting curve. We walk through a global engineering case study where leadership behavior shifted from vision on slides to norms in daily work—town halls and toolbox talks, a custom self-assessment, scenario learning, leadership labs, mentoring, and performance systems all pulling in the same direction.
Managers are the hinge that determines whether culture moves or snaps back. Georgie, a speaker at the November 12th Disrupt London summit, shares how to equip them as a distinct audience: early access, practical tools for local contexts, and clear expectations for the first 90 days.
Bill and Georgie also explore how to align company values with local realities, making the “why” personal to each team. If you’re leading HR, transformation, or people development, you’ll leave with concrete steps to diagnose resistance, tailor messages, and build environments where the right behavior is the easy behavior.
If this episode sparks ideas for your own rollout, follow along and share your biggest challenge. Subscribe for more conversations on change, leadership, and the future of work, and leave a quick review to help others find the show.
Connect with Georgie: linkedin.com/in/georgina-cooke-ld
Learn about Lima Delta: limadelta.com
Check out Lima Delta's Pathfinder workshop: limadelta.com/pathfinder
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:02):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
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SPEAKER_02 (00:25):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Pod.
Hello, listeners.
I'm your host today, BillBannham, and this time we're
going to consider why over 50%of change initiatives fail.
We also offer practical tips forHR leaders to bridge the gap
between change strategy andaction, leading to tangible
(00:45):
results for the organization.
Joining me on the pod today isGeorgie Cook, a learning and
change strategist with over 14years' experience helping
businesses turn strategy intoaction.
Georgie has designed smart,scalable digital solutions for
global brands like PepsiCo, JohnLewis, DiAgio, and HSBC, always
(01:08):
with a sharp focus on real-worldimpact.
As co-founder of Lima Delta,Georgie leads the creation of
digital tools, assets, andlearning experiences that make
change stick.
Her work is rooted in behavioralscience and shaped by a deep
understanding of how peoplelearn, adapt and grow,
(01:28):
especially in fast-movingorganizations.
A regular speaker and coach,Georgie is a learning
technologies award judge and hasfeatured on podcasts including
Marketing for Learning, Mind theSkills Gap, and People Unboxed.
Georgie brings clarity, warmth,and insight to every
conversation about learning,change, and the human side of
(01:52):
work.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation that I had with
Georgie.
Georgie, it's my pleasure towelcome you to the HR chat show
today.
How are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
Hi, Bill.
I'm great.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Thank you.
So beyond my wee introductionjust a moment ago, Georgie, why
don't you start by taking aminute or two and telling our
listeners all about yourself,your career history, and what
gets you up in the morning?
SPEAKER_03 (02:17):
Great.
Okay.
So my career background has beenin learning design.
So straight out of uni, I wasworking for a large e-learning
development house, really kindof straight into the detail of
learning design.
And I really cut my teeth inthat industry, learn a lot.
But over the time that I didthat, I really realized that in
(02:40):
a workplace context, learningand development isn't just for
the sake of it.
It's not just for the love oflearning.
More often than not, it'sbecause the business has got
some kind of change they'retrying to make and they need all
their employees to be trained onthat change.
But often, just for me learningisn't enough to make that change
happen.
(03:01):
So the longer that I was doingthat, the more I realized that I
think a more holistic approachto making change happen in
business is needed.
And so five nearly six yearsago, I co-founded Lima Delta,
which, as you've talked about abit, is an agency that takes
that more holistic approach tomaking change happen and stick
(03:22):
in organisations.
And now I spend my time runningthat company and consulting with
our wonderful clients on kind ofthe transformations that they're
looking to make and helpingdesign the rollout plans for
them to do that really well.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
All right, brilliant.
Thank you very much.
So according to McKinsey,Georgie, over half of change
initiatives fail.
So my question for you is why?
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
Yeah, the stats are quite damning actually.
So the the specific statisticsin um that study that you're
referencing there is that 44% ofchange initiatives fail to
achieve their goals within thefirst year.
So they don't achieve theperformance goals that they set
out to.
(04:14):
And then after three years, it'seven worse, and only 12% are
still working after three years.
So there is quite a lot ofevidence to show that a lot of
change initiatives just don'thave the impact that we hope
they will up front.
And I also think anecdotally weknow this to be true.
You know, we get there's a lotof talk about change fatigue, a
(04:36):
lot of people kind of rollingtheir eyes, not another one,
here we go again.
And I think anecdotally, we sortof know that feeling to be true
as well.
Um, as for why, I think there'stwo main reasons.
Mainly, I think it's that thehuman brain is very interesting
in that it's really resilientand very adaptable and can
(04:56):
change, but it's also hardwiredto avoid changing unless it
absolutely has to.
You know, we're kind of wired ashumans to avoid any perceived
risk, keep things the same.
So ultimately, humans as a wholeare a tough crowd when it comes
to change.
Um so that's the first reason Ithink change fails.
(05:17):
And the second is that therollout plans often in
organizations when they'retrying to make change happen,
they don't take that intoaccount.
There's this sort of assumptionthat if we can just tell people
how amazing our vision for thefuture is and why they should be
excited and why they should geton board, that they will get it
and they will get on board andthey will voluntarily change
(05:40):
their ways of working and do thethings that we want them to do.
And unfortunately, because thebrain is how it is, that's just
not really how it works.
So I think a lot of the timewe're not taking the time to
understand what thosepsychological barriers are and
design around them.
And that means that even thebest-intended programs just
don't land with the people theyneed to.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazette.com.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Okay, thank you.
So, as a as a follow-up to that,in your opinion, what do HR
leaders need to know about humanbehavior when it comes to
driving change?
SPEAKER_03 (06:27):
I guess some of the some specifics on the the brain,
I guess, piece I was talkingabout there.
Some key things to be aware of,I think, is that most of us have
what we call a status quo bias.
So just a kind of generalinherent belief that it's safer
to stay the same than to change.
So even a really exciting,compelling change message,
(06:51):
people are likely to still pickholes in it and think that does
sound really good, but it mightnot happen exactly like that.
And therefore, isn't it betterto just stay safe and stay how
things are than take the risk ofchanging and failing?
Part of that is that somethingelse that's at play is risk
aversion.
So that's the that describesthis phenomenon of basically for
(07:13):
most humans, the fear of loss isstronger than the desire to
gain.
So again, that people are lesslikely to have a strong desire
for the future vision.
They're more likely to be afraidof losing the comfort and the
safety of what they currentlyhave.
I think if HR leaders can beaware of this starting point,
then they can start shapingmessaging that actually responds
(07:36):
to that rather than kind ofignoring it and hoping people
will be able to put that asideand just get excited.
And one other thing that I thinkpeople should know about is
something called inhospitablesocial norms, which sounds a bit
like a disease, isn't it?
It's basically a description ofthe fact that if a social
(07:59):
culture, in this case, aworkplace culture, a team
culture, if that culture is notreceptive to the change, it's
really hard for an individualperson to kind of stick their
neck out and do somethingdifferently when the environment
and the culture is saying theopposite.
So I think that's another reallyimportant thing in these change
programs that just saying theright stuff will never be quite
(08:22):
enough.
The environment and the culturereally has to support it if it's
going to work.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Okay, thank you.
So you mentioned as part of youranswer there, most of us you
said have status quo bias, and alot of us are also risk averse.
Um I wonder if you're able toyou're able to offer any models
around that, whether that'sBriggs Myers, um, Ocean
personality model, the diskassessment.
(08:49):
Are there any particularpersonality types that perhaps
are less less uh risk adverse?
Uh that they are they are morepro-breaking the status quo.
SPEAKER_03 (08:59):
That's an interesting question.
I think it's um probably in myexperience, it's probably less
about personality types and moreabout people that have got some
kind of motivation that'sstronger than the status quo
bias and risk aversion.
So that might be people withinthe business who are really
trying to make a name forthemselves and really want to be
(09:19):
seen as part of the new way, notthe old guard.
Often new people coming into anorganization are much more
receptive because they'realready in this state of change.
They've already decided, right,I'm moving from previous
organization to neworganization, and they're sort
of already in the headspace tobe taking on new ideas, new
(09:40):
direction, and they're sort ofin that space already.
So it's a good call out, butit's definitely not the case
that everybody across the boardhas is going to be really
anti-the change.
It's just that as a defaultsetting for a lot of people,
that's the starting point.
And it's if we can acknowledgethat, then we'll get a lot more
people on board.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
Okay.
I feel like we can have a wholeconversation about this alone,
but we won't.
We're going to continue through.
Um, how do you and your teamadvise HR leaders, Georgie, to
bridge the gap between changestrategy and action, tangible
actions that make a difference?
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Well, I guess the good news is that each of those
like psychological barriers thatI've been talking about there,
so things like risk aversion,they all have a flip side and
they all have a solution.
And I think the way to take achange strategy from just being
a strategy mapped out on paperthat you hope people will
execute to actually getting itexecuted in day-to-day behaviors
(10:38):
in practice, is to design arollout plan for your change
that overcomes all of thosebarriers with those with good
solutions and thereforesuccessfully gets people in the
right mindset to change andgives them the capabilities they
need to change and creates ahospitable environment that
(11:01):
supports it.
So it's quite multifaceted, youknow.
I guess this comes back to whatI was saying right at the start
that if you do just the trainingpiece, that's really unlikely to
be enough.
You've got to get people excitedfirst and make sure the
environment's there afterwards.
Um, and a good way to rememberthis is we we've got a framework
(11:22):
we use at Lima Delta that wecall inspire, train, sustain,
those being those three stepsthat make up a success
successful plan.
And that's to kind of capture,yeah, capture all the things
that we think are needed to turna strategy into execution in the
business.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Okay, great.
We'll go into the metrics injust a moment, but before we get
there, um use cases, casestudies.
Do you do do you have any?
Do you have any practicalexamples of of what this looks
like in a real project?
Can you can you maybe speak tosome some clients that you
you've worked with and you'vemade a difference?
SPEAKER_03 (11:56):
We work across all different sort of sectors and
types of change.
So everything from um sort ofbig system changes, architecture
changes, workflow and processchanges, all the way through to
more cultural things likebecoming more inclusive, things
like that.
One that I'll talk about nowthat I think probably hopefully
(12:17):
will have wide resonance withpeople listening, um, was a
company, a kind of a global, alarge global engineering company
that we've been working withrecently.
And what the change they werelooking to make was all around
how their leadership show up.
And this is leaders at alllevels, so right from C-suite to
(12:37):
supervisors.
They were basically rolling outa new leadership framework and
set of behaviours andcompetencies.
And it was quite a big sort ofcultural shift for leaders, um,
driving much more towards likehigh performance,
accountability, all of that kindof thing.
So that was the change that theyreally wanted to make.
(12:59):
Um, and we worked with them todig into, you know, of some of
the examples I've given so far,you know, which of those
psychological barriers were mostprevalent in their culture.
Um, who were those people whowere really um open to change
and how could we leverage them?
So we sort of did thatconsultancy with them, and off
(13:21):
the back of it helped design arollout plan for them that
followed the Inspire TrainSustain model.
So in Inspire, for example, wedesigned a rollout that included
things like, I guess some of theclassics you would expect.
So things like um town hallmeetings and story kind of
(13:44):
launch videos that really tellthe story of the change, but
also much more subtle thingslike toolbox talks that leaders
and supervisors in um like inoffshore areas working on site
could use to roll out the samemessage.
Um, we also designed a funself-assessment almost along the
(14:05):
lines of something like aMyers-Briggs assessment, but it
was aligned specifically totheir new leadership model.
So it was a way of reallyunderstanding how does this
apply to me specifically?
What, where are my strengths andmy weaknesses.
And throughout all of that, wereally worked with them on
what's the story behind theseleadership behaviors that's
(14:27):
going to resonate with people.
Um, and for them it was veryinteresting because they would
describe their culture as beingquite humble and actually being
seen as a big leader up on apedestal isn't actually that
appealing to sort of in theculture of this organization.
So it was all about reallyunderstanding that and helping
(14:48):
them work out knowing thatwhat's the right message to
deliver with this that's goingto land with people.
So there was lots in thatinspire space.
Then in train, we worked withthem on some interactive
scenario-driven learning moduleswhere there's lots of feedback
loops and decision making sothat people can really practice
(15:11):
and start thinking about how doI put these behaviors into
practice in real, realsituations.
Also, some workshops, um, likelive sessions to get everyone
talking.
And then in the sustain phase,thinking about how do we make
sure the environment supportsthese new leadership behaviours
and how do we make sure peopledon't forget what they are.
(15:32):
Um, that was all about partlygetting it embedded in all of
the BAU processes.
So things like getting itembedded in performance review
cycles and 360 feedback, alsomaking sure there's ongoing
points of contact on thissubject specifically.
So ongoing communications, wehad leadership labs where people
(15:54):
could, leaders from across thebusiness, could come together
and share their challenges.
We had buddying and mentorsystems, things like that.
That's all about making surethat this new framework isn't
just a communication thatdisappears.
It's actually really embeddedand supported in practice.
So that's just one example, Iguess, of how when you really
(16:16):
dig into a specific culture, therollout plan you come up with is
very specific to what they needand what's going to make it land
for them.
SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
Okay, let's continue talking about the inspire train
sustain model, but specificallylet's focus on the sustain piece
because we want we want ourlisteners today to leave this
with some uh tangible takeawaysthat they can make sure their
organizations are doing theright things for the long term.
Um, in terms of the role ofmanagers, what what role do or
(16:48):
should land managers and peopleleaders play in ensuring that
that change does take hold?
And as part of your answer, howcan HR best equip them to
support their teams throughthose transitions?
SPEAKER_03 (17:00):
I really think managers are make or break.
Um, you know, managers, whetherthey realize it or not, they
really set the norms in theirteam.
And even though there will, ofcourse, be a sort of company
culture, often teams really havetheir own their own cultures as
well.
And you could have the samerollout plan going to two very
(17:21):
similar teams.
And if one manager is really onboard and excited about it,
speaks positively about it,follows up with their team on it
all the time, and then you'vegot one manager who's kind of
outwardly cynical about it,doesn't really give it any time,
then how those two teams respondis likely to be very different
because ultimately the teamswant to do do well and be
(17:44):
perceived well in theirmanager's eyes.
So what that manager expects ofthem is critical with rollouts
like this.
Um, but that said, it can be atough gig for managers, you
know, especially if there's lotsof changes to roll out and they
feel like they're constantlybeing given, you know, stuff
from corporate to filter down totheir teams, it can be a tough
(18:05):
gig for them.
So I think really engagingmanagers and almost treating
them as their own, an own, liketheir own little audience
subgroup within your rolloutplan is really important.
It shows them the pivotal rolethat they play, shows that
you've taken care enough to makesure they know everything three
(18:27):
to four weeks ahead of theirteam.
So they're not on the spotfeeling like they don't know the
answers, you know, to thequestions their team are asking
them.
So I think by treating managersas as important as they are to
the rollout, um, that's thefirst step.
And one other point on that, Ithink, is just to make sure that
(18:47):
you again don't think of allyour managers as being the same.
So, for example, in thatengineering company I was just
talking about, there's a hugedifference between a supervisor
who was on site on an offshorerig versus somebody who's
heading up an accounting team inChina, um wildly different
(19:09):
worlds, wildly differentexperiences.
And so, you know, one PDF aboutthis change program that goes
out to those two people is notgoing to land the same with
them.
So think it's about how can youequip your managers on site with
something in a format that worksfor them.
So if you know that they doweekly toolbox talks with their
(19:30):
team, what can you give them towork in that setting?
And for your manager in China,firstly, don't give them
something in English, give themsomething in their language, and
think about what is the culturein their team and what's the
kind of format they're going toneed and help them as much as
you can, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (19:48):
So uh you started the answer by saying that you
know, different teams aredifferent, they they they work
differently and all the rest ofit.
Um, then use that example at theend uh a rig manager versus uh
an office-based person um in adisparate location.
My dad was a rig manager, as ithappens really many years ago.
Oh, yeah, he was he was.
Um but that said, do you thinkthere should be uh core company
(20:15):
values?
You know, the to use SimonSinek's term, that the the why
of a business that that show upshows up throughout all of these
different discussions, all ofthese different teams, because
they uh there should be somealignment with the overall
mission of the company.
SPEAKER_03 (20:28):
Definitely, yes.
I think and often that's a bigpart of these changes and
transformations.
Often it's about trying to geteverybody from all these
disparate teams to connect withthe same company level mission
or value or behavior or newdirection or whatever it is.
Um, so I think that absolutelyshould be.
However, I think we would bedoing ourselves a disservice if
(20:52):
we pretended that that level ofvalue is what people connect
with most easily.
I think realistically, peoplefirstly connect with does this
value mean something to mepersonally?
Then does it mean something tomy immediate team?
And then what does it mean forthe whole company?
So the company level shouldabsolutely be there.
But I think it's also abouthelping people bridge that gap
(21:16):
for themselves.
So, how do you show somebody, Iknow this is what you do in your
day-to-day?
You might not see immediatelyhow that links to this big
picture thing we're talkingabout.
And I think a big part of HR'sjob is to do bridge that gap for
people so that they can connectto that big picture vision more
easily.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Okay, so uh let's now just take a moment, step
back, and make sure that we'vegot all these lovely takeaways
for our listeners by I guesskind of recapping a little bit
of what you said so far in thecontext of sustaining change in
in the long term.
Um, but I'm gonna challenge youto do so, to answer my next
question in 60 seconds or less,like I like to do on this show
(21:58):
sometimes.
Okay.
Uh we switch up the tempo.
So the question here is what aresome of those most effective
ways to sustain engagement andbehavioural shifts over the long
haul?
SPEAKER_03 (22:10):
I like the 60-second challenge.
So I would say number one ismake sure that your overall
messaging and the story thatyou're telling about your change
is the right one from the startbecause you want that message to
sustain all the way through.
So don't just talk about howgreat your vision of the future
(22:30):
is.
Talk about also the risks ofstaying the same so that people
really understand the bigpicture.
Then once you've got peopleexcited and you've done your
initial launch and your initialtraining and it comes to
sustain, really, I say firstly,make sure that you've got a
continuous comms plan.
So the comms plan shouldn't endafter a couple of months after
(22:52):
launch, it should be ongoing.
Try and get communities inplace.
So think about you know, if yourmain target audience, for
example, is leaders, where dothey hang out?
How do they connect with eachother?
And how can you make your changeembedded where they are?
Don't remember that theforgetting curve is real.
You know this change, like theback of your hand, other people
(23:15):
don't.
Keep repeating the message overand over again.
Um, and finally, do everythingyou can to make sure that the
practical BAU environmentsupports what you're saying.
So if you want people to changethe way they act, do they have
the right tools and processes todo it?
If you want them to prioritize Xover Y, make sure that their
(23:36):
incentive structure alsosupports that and isn't make
sure their incentive structureisn't supporting the opposite to
what you're trying to do.
So, yeah, think about thatpractical level as well as that
continuous messaging.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Awesome.
All over that, and I think thatwas just in 60 seconds.
So good job, Georgie.
Um, okay, so we are recordingthis episode in early October
2025.
Uh, you are one of our newvictims, I mean one of our new
speakers at uh an upcomingDisrupt event.
Um, can you can you just take aminute or two now and give our
(24:09):
listeners a bit of an overviewof what you'll be talking about
at the Disrupt Summit?
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
So at the Disrupt Summit, we'regoing to be looking in a bit
more detail at Inspire, Train,Sustain, that three-part
process, um, the threeingredients to a really great
rollout plan that makes yourchange stick.
Um, and it's going to be alittle bit more of an
interactive session.
So getting you to think aboutchange that's going on in your
(24:35):
organization or that's comingup, and for you to start
thinking about what will bereally needed to inspire your
people, what kind of trainingmight they need?
Where are their capability gaps?
And what's the best way to getover that?
And then, like we've just beentalking about now, what does a
really good sustained changelook like in your organization?
(24:56):
So I'll be providing lots ofprompts and ideas and examples,
and you'll be thinking about howto apply it yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Excellent.
And just so you don't have anyum uh frightening experiences
when you get there, I'm sure youalready know this, but it is a
quite unique format.
It's five minutes, 20 slides,and we're mean, so we automate
those slides to rotate every 15seconds.
SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
Uh so this this second challenge was good
practice then.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Exactly, exactly.
I had a speaker rock up at oneof uh one of the disrupts fairly
recently, and they weren't awarethat the slides do automate.
So they had a moment.
Um just finally for today,Georgie, how can our listeners
connect with you?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool all over theTikToks and places?
And of course, how can listenerslearn more about Lima Delta?
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
Uh sadly, I'm not cool enough for TikTok.
Um, I am often hanging out onLinkedIn though.
I like to do weekly videossharing kind of things that I've
learned from my clients.
So feel free to follow me there.
It's Georgina Cook on LinkedIn.
I'd love to connect.
And then specifically about LimaDelta, um, obviously you can
find us at our website.
(26:02):
Um, but specifically, if you'vegot a change kind of coming up
and this has resonated with you,then we've got a specific um
landing page, which um you canfind the link um in the notes
for this, which um it just tellsyou a bit about a specific offer
we've got on PathfinderWorkshops, which is a workshop
where we help you map out,inspire, train, sustain for your
(26:24):
change.
So we've got a few spots leftfor this year.
So if that's interesting, youcan take a look there and sign
up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
Okay, lots of ways to connect, and there will be
this dedicated landing page justfor you beautiful listeners.
So there we go.
Georgie, that just leaves me tosay for today.
Thank you very much for being myguest.
SPEAKER_03 (26:41):
Thanks for having me.
I've really enjoyed the chat.
SPEAKER_02 (26:43):
And listeners, as always, until next time, happy
working.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
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SPEAKER_02 (00:25):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Pod.
Hello, listeners.
I'm your host today, BillBannham, and this time we're
going to consider why over 50%of change initiatives fail.
We also offer practical tips forHR leaders to bridge the gap
between change strategy andaction, leading to tangible
(00:45):
results for the organization.
Joining me on the pod today isGeorgie Cook, a learning and
change strategist with over 14years' experience helping
businesses turn strategy intoaction.
Georgie has designed smart,scalable digital solutions for
global brands like PepsiCo, JohnLewis, DiAgio, and HSBC, always
(01:08):
with a sharp focus on real-worldimpact.
As co-founder of Lima Delta,Georgie leads the creation of
digital tools, assets, andlearning experiences that make
change stick.
Her work is rooted in behavioralscience and shaped by a deep
understanding of how peoplelearn, adapt and grow,
(01:28):
especially in fast-movingorganizations.
A regular speaker and coach,Georgie is a learning
technologies award judge and hasfeatured on podcasts including
Marketing for Learning, Mind theSkills Gap, and People Unboxed.
Georgie brings clarity, warmth,and insight to every
conversation about learning,change, and the human side of
(01:52):
work.
I hope you enjoy thisconversation that I had with
Georgie.
Georgie, it's my pleasure towelcome you to the HR chat show
today.
How are you doing?
SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
Hi, Bill.
I'm great.
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (02:05):
Thank you.
So beyond my wee introductionjust a moment ago, Georgie, why
don't you start by taking aminute or two and telling our
listeners all about yourself,your career history, and what
gets you up in the morning?
SPEAKER_03 (02:17):
Great.
Okay.
So my career background has beenin learning design.
So straight out of uni, I wasworking for a large e-learning
development house, really kindof straight into the detail of
learning design.
And I really cut my teeth inthat industry, learn a lot.
But over the time that I didthat, I really realized that in
(02:40):
a workplace context, learningand development isn't just for
the sake of it.
It's not just for the love oflearning.
More often than not, it'sbecause the business has got
some kind of change they'retrying to make and they need all
their employees to be trained onthat change.
But often, just for me learningisn't enough to make that change
happen.
(03:01):
So the longer that I was doingthat, the more I realized that I
think a more holistic approachto making change happen in
business is needed.
And so five nearly six yearsago, I co-founded Lima Delta,
which, as you've talked about abit, is an agency that takes
that more holistic approach tomaking change happen and stick
(03:22):
in organisations.
And now I spend my time runningthat company and consulting with
our wonderful clients on kind ofthe transformations that they're
looking to make and helpingdesign the rollout plans for
them to do that really well.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
All right, brilliant.
Thank you very much.
So according to McKinsey,Georgie, over half of change
initiatives fail.
So my question for you is why?
SPEAKER_03 (03:54):
Yeah, the stats are quite damning actually.
So the the specific statisticsin um that study that you're
referencing there is that 44% ofchange initiatives fail to
achieve their goals within thefirst year.
So they don't achieve theperformance goals that they set
out to.
(04:14):
And then after three years, it'seven worse, and only 12% are
still working after three years.
So there is quite a lot ofevidence to show that a lot of
change initiatives just don'thave the impact that we hope
they will up front.
And I also think anecdotally weknow this to be true.
You know, we get there's a lotof talk about change fatigue, a
(04:36):
lot of people kind of rollingtheir eyes, not another one,
here we go again.
And I think anecdotally, we sortof know that feeling to be true
as well.
Um, as for why, I think there'stwo main reasons.
Mainly, I think it's that thehuman brain is very interesting
in that it's really resilientand very adaptable and can
(04:56):
change, but it's also hardwiredto avoid changing unless it
absolutely has to.
You know, we're kind of wired ashumans to avoid any perceived
risk, keep things the same.
So ultimately, humans as a wholeare a tough crowd when it comes
to change.
Um so that's the first reason Ithink change fails.
(05:17):
And the second is that therollout plans often in
organizations when they'retrying to make change happen,
they don't take that intoaccount.
There's this sort of assumptionthat if we can just tell people
how amazing our vision for thefuture is and why they should be
excited and why they should geton board, that they will get it
and they will get on board andthey will voluntarily change
(05:40):
their ways of working and do thethings that we want them to do.
And unfortunately, because thebrain is how it is, that's just
not really how it works.
So I think a lot of the timewe're not taking the time to
understand what thosepsychological barriers are and
design around them.
And that means that even thebest-intended programs just
don't land with the people theyneed to.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at hrgazette.com.
And now back to the show.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Okay, thank you.
So, as a as a follow-up to that,in your opinion, what do HR
leaders need to know about humanbehavior when it comes to
driving change?
SPEAKER_03 (06:27):
I guess some of the some specifics on the the brain,
I guess, piece I was talkingabout there.
Some key things to be aware of,I think, is that most of us have
what we call a status quo bias.
So just a kind of generalinherent belief that it's safer
to stay the same than to change.
So even a really exciting,compelling change message,
(06:51):
people are likely to still pickholes in it and think that does
sound really good, but it mightnot happen exactly like that.
And therefore, isn't it betterto just stay safe and stay how
things are than take the risk ofchanging and failing?
Part of that is that somethingelse that's at play is risk
aversion.
So that's the that describesthis phenomenon of basically for
(07:13):
most humans, the fear of loss isstronger than the desire to
gain.
So again, that people are lesslikely to have a strong desire
for the future vision.
They're more likely to be afraidof losing the comfort and the
safety of what they currentlyhave.
I think if HR leaders can beaware of this starting point,
then they can start shapingmessaging that actually responds
(07:36):
to that rather than kind ofignoring it and hoping people
will be able to put that asideand just get excited.
And one other thing that I thinkpeople should know about is
something called inhospitablesocial norms, which sounds a bit
like a disease, isn't it?
It's basically a description ofthe fact that if a social
(07:59):
culture, in this case, aworkplace culture, a team
culture, if that culture is notreceptive to the change, it's
really hard for an individualperson to kind of stick their
neck out and do somethingdifferently when the environment
and the culture is saying theopposite.
So I think that's another reallyimportant thing in these change
programs that just saying theright stuff will never be quite
(08:22):
enough.
The environment and the culturereally has to support it if it's
going to work.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Okay, thank you.
So you mentioned as part of youranswer there, most of us you
said have status quo bias, and alot of us are also risk averse.
Um I wonder if you're able toyou're able to offer any models
around that, whether that'sBriggs Myers, um, Ocean
personality model, the diskassessment.
(08:49):
Are there any particularpersonality types that perhaps
are less less uh risk adverse?
Uh that they are they are morepro-breaking the status quo.
SPEAKER_03 (08:59):
That's an interesting question.
I think it's um probably in myexperience, it's probably less
about personality types and moreabout people that have got some
kind of motivation that'sstronger than the status quo
bias and risk aversion.
So that might be people withinthe business who are really
trying to make a name forthemselves and really want to be
(09:19):
seen as part of the new way, notthe old guard.
Often new people coming into anorganization are much more
receptive because they'realready in this state of change.
They've already decided, right,I'm moving from previous
organization to neworganization, and they're sort
of already in the headspace tobe taking on new ideas, new
(09:40):
direction, and they're sort ofin that space already.
So it's a good call out, butit's definitely not the case
that everybody across the boardhas is going to be really
anti-the change.
It's just that as a defaultsetting for a lot of people,
that's the starting point.
And it's if we can acknowledgethat, then we'll get a lot more
people on board.
SPEAKER_02 (10:00):
Okay.
I feel like we can have a wholeconversation about this alone,
but we won't.
We're going to continue through.
Um, how do you and your teamadvise HR leaders, Georgie, to
bridge the gap between changestrategy and action, tangible
actions that make a difference?
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Well, I guess the good news is that each of those
like psychological barriers thatI've been talking about there,
so things like risk aversion,they all have a flip side and
they all have a solution.
And I think the way to take achange strategy from just being
a strategy mapped out on paperthat you hope people will
execute to actually getting itexecuted in day-to-day behaviors
(10:38):
in practice, is to design arollout plan for your change
that overcomes all of thosebarriers with those with good
solutions and thereforesuccessfully gets people in the
right mindset to change andgives them the capabilities they
need to change and creates ahospitable environment that
(11:01):
supports it.
So it's quite multifaceted, youknow.
I guess this comes back to whatI was saying right at the start
that if you do just the trainingpiece, that's really unlikely to
be enough.
You've got to get people excitedfirst and make sure the
environment's there afterwards.
Um, and a good way to rememberthis is we we've got a framework
(11:22):
we use at Lima Delta that wecall inspire, train, sustain,
those being those three stepsthat make up a success
successful plan.
And that's to kind of capture,yeah, capture all the things
that we think are needed to turna strategy into execution in the
business.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
Okay, great.
We'll go into the metrics injust a moment, but before we get
there, um use cases, casestudies.
Do you do do you have any?
Do you have any practicalexamples of of what this looks
like in a real project?
Can you can you maybe speak tosome some clients that you
you've worked with and you'vemade a difference?
SPEAKER_03 (11:56):
We work across all different sort of sectors and
types of change.
So everything from um sort ofbig system changes, architecture
changes, workflow and processchanges, all the way through to
more cultural things likebecoming more inclusive, things
like that.
One that I'll talk about nowthat I think probably hopefully
(12:17):
will have wide resonance withpeople listening, um, was a
company, a kind of a global, alarge global engineering company
that we've been working withrecently.
And what the change they werelooking to make was all around
how their leadership show up.
And this is leaders at alllevels, so right from C-suite to
(12:37):
supervisors.
They were basically rolling outa new leadership framework and
set of behaviours andcompetencies.
And it was quite a big sort ofcultural shift for leaders, um,
driving much more towards likehigh performance,
accountability, all of that kindof thing.
So that was the change that theyreally wanted to make.
(12:59):
Um, and we worked with them todig into, you know, of some of
the examples I've given so far,you know, which of those
psychological barriers were mostprevalent in their culture.
Um, who were those people whowere really um open to change
and how could we leverage them?
So we sort of did thatconsultancy with them, and off
(13:21):
the back of it helped design arollout plan for them that
followed the Inspire TrainSustain model.
So in Inspire, for example, wedesigned a rollout that included
things like, I guess some of theclassics you would expect.
So things like um town hallmeetings and story kind of
(13:44):
launch videos that really tellthe story of the change, but
also much more subtle thingslike toolbox talks that leaders
and supervisors in um like inoffshore areas working on site
could use to roll out the samemessage.
Um, we also designed a funself-assessment almost along the
(14:05):
lines of something like aMyers-Briggs assessment, but it
was aligned specifically totheir new leadership model.
So it was a way of reallyunderstanding how does this
apply to me specifically?
What, where are my strengths andmy weaknesses.
And throughout all of that, wereally worked with them on
what's the story behind theseleadership behaviors that's
(14:27):
going to resonate with people.
Um, and for them it was veryinteresting because they would
describe their culture as beingquite humble and actually being
seen as a big leader up on apedestal isn't actually that
appealing to sort of in theculture of this organization.
So it was all about reallyunderstanding that and helping
(14:48):
them work out knowing thatwhat's the right message to
deliver with this that's goingto land with people.
So there was lots in thatinspire space.
Then in train, we worked withthem on some interactive
scenario-driven learning moduleswhere there's lots of feedback
loops and decision making sothat people can really practice
(15:11):
and start thinking about how doI put these behaviors into
practice in real, realsituations.
Also, some workshops, um, likelive sessions to get everyone
talking.
And then in the sustain phase,thinking about how do we make
sure the environment supportsthese new leadership behaviours
and how do we make sure peopledon't forget what they are.
(15:32):
Um, that was all about partlygetting it embedded in all of
the BAU processes.
So things like getting itembedded in performance review
cycles and 360 feedback, alsomaking sure there's ongoing
points of contact on thissubject specifically.
So ongoing communications, wehad leadership labs where people
(15:54):
could, leaders from across thebusiness, could come together
and share their challenges.
We had buddying and mentorsystems, things like that.
That's all about making surethat this new framework isn't
just a communication thatdisappears.
It's actually really embeddedand supported in practice.
So that's just one example, Iguess, of how when you really
(16:16):
dig into a specific culture, therollout plan you come up with is
very specific to what they needand what's going to make it land
for them.
SPEAKER_02 (16:24):
Okay, let's continue talking about the inspire train
sustain model, but specificallylet's focus on the sustain piece
because we want we want ourlisteners today to leave this
with some uh tangible takeawaysthat they can make sure their
organizations are doing theright things for the long term.
Um, in terms of the role ofmanagers, what what role do or
(16:48):
should land managers and peopleleaders play in ensuring that
that change does take hold?
And as part of your answer, howcan HR best equip them to
support their teams throughthose transitions?
SPEAKER_03 (17:00):
I really think managers are make or break.
Um, you know, managers, whetherthey realize it or not, they
really set the norms in theirteam.
And even though there will, ofcourse, be a sort of company
culture, often teams really havetheir own their own cultures as
well.
And you could have the samerollout plan going to two very
(17:21):
similar teams.
And if one manager is really onboard and excited about it,
speaks positively about it,follows up with their team on it
all the time, and then you'vegot one manager who's kind of
outwardly cynical about it,doesn't really give it any time,
then how those two teams respondis likely to be very different
because ultimately the teamswant to do do well and be
(17:44):
perceived well in theirmanager's eyes.
So what that manager expects ofthem is critical with rollouts
like this.
Um, but that said, it can be atough gig for managers, you
know, especially if there's lotsof changes to roll out and they
feel like they're constantlybeing given, you know, stuff
from corporate to filter down totheir teams, it can be a tough
(18:05):
gig for them.
So I think really engagingmanagers and almost treating
them as their own, an own, liketheir own little audience
subgroup within your rolloutplan is really important.
It shows them the pivotal rolethat they play, shows that
you've taken care enough to makesure they know everything three
(18:27):
to four weeks ahead of theirteam.
So they're not on the spotfeeling like they don't know the
answers, you know, to thequestions their team are asking
them.
So I think by treating managersas as important as they are to
the rollout, um, that's thefirst step.
And one other point on that, Ithink, is just to make sure that
(18:47):
you again don't think of allyour managers as being the same.
So, for example, in thatengineering company I was just
talking about, there's a hugedifference between a supervisor
who was on site on an offshorerig versus somebody who's
heading up an accounting team inChina, um wildly different
(19:09):
worlds, wildly differentexperiences.
And so, you know, one PDF aboutthis change program that goes
out to those two people is notgoing to land the same with
them.
So think it's about how can youequip your managers on site with
something in a format that worksfor them.
So if you know that they doweekly toolbox talks with their
(19:30):
team, what can you give them towork in that setting?
And for your manager in China,firstly, don't give them
something in English, give themsomething in their language, and
think about what is the culturein their team and what's the
kind of format they're going toneed and help them as much as
you can, I think.
SPEAKER_02 (19:48):
So uh you started the answer by saying that you
know, different teams aredifferent, they they they work
differently and all the rest ofit.
Um, then use that example at theend uh a rig manager versus uh
an office-based person um in adisparate location.
My dad was a rig manager, as ithappens really many years ago.
Oh, yeah, he was he was.
Um but that said, do you thinkthere should be uh core company
(20:15):
values?
You know, the to use SimonSinek's term, that the the why
of a business that that show upshows up throughout all of these
different discussions, all ofthese different teams, because
they uh there should be somealignment with the overall
mission of the company.
SPEAKER_03 (20:28):
Definitely, yes.
I think and often that's a bigpart of these changes and
transformations.
Often it's about trying to geteverybody from all these
disparate teams to connect withthe same company level mission
or value or behavior or newdirection or whatever it is.
Um, so I think that absolutelyshould be.
However, I think we would bedoing ourselves a disservice if
(20:52):
we pretended that that level ofvalue is what people connect
with most easily.
I think realistically, peoplefirstly connect with does this
value mean something to mepersonally?
Then does it mean something tomy immediate team?
And then what does it mean forthe whole company?
So the company level shouldabsolutely be there.
But I think it's also abouthelping people bridge that gap
(21:16):
for themselves.
So, how do you show somebody, Iknow this is what you do in your
day-to-day?
You might not see immediatelyhow that links to this big
picture thing we're talkingabout.
And I think a big part of HR'sjob is to do bridge that gap for
people so that they can connectto that big picture vision more
easily.
SPEAKER_02 (21:36):
Okay, so uh let's now just take a moment, step
back, and make sure that we'vegot all these lovely takeaways
for our listeners by I guesskind of recapping a little bit
of what you said so far in thecontext of sustaining change in
in the long term.
Um, but I'm gonna challenge youto do so, to answer my next
question in 60 seconds or less,like I like to do on this show
(21:58):
sometimes.
Okay.
Uh we switch up the tempo.
So the question here is what aresome of those most effective
ways to sustain engagement andbehavioural shifts over the long
haul?
SPEAKER_03 (22:10):
I like the 60-second challenge.
So I would say number one ismake sure that your overall
messaging and the story thatyou're telling about your change
is the right one from the startbecause you want that message to
sustain all the way through.
So don't just talk about howgreat your vision of the future
(22:30):
is.
Talk about also the risks ofstaying the same so that people
really understand the bigpicture.
Then once you've got peopleexcited and you've done your
initial launch and your initialtraining and it comes to
sustain, really, I say firstly,make sure that you've got a
continuous comms plan.
So the comms plan shouldn't endafter a couple of months after
(22:52):
launch, it should be ongoing.
Try and get communities inplace.
So think about you know, if yourmain target audience, for
example, is leaders, where dothey hang out?
How do they connect with eachother?
And how can you make your changeembedded where they are?
Don't remember that theforgetting curve is real.
You know this change, like theback of your hand, other people
(23:15):
don't.
Keep repeating the message overand over again.
Um, and finally, do everythingyou can to make sure that the
practical BAU environmentsupports what you're saying.
So if you want people to changethe way they act, do they have
the right tools and processes todo it?
If you want them to prioritize Xover Y, make sure that their
(23:36):
incentive structure alsosupports that and isn't make
sure their incentive structureisn't supporting the opposite to
what you're trying to do.
So, yeah, think about thatpractical level as well as that
continuous messaging.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
Awesome.
All over that, and I think thatwas just in 60 seconds.
So good job, Georgie.
Um, okay, so we are recordingthis episode in early October
2025.
Uh, you are one of our newvictims, I mean one of our new
speakers at uh an upcomingDisrupt event.
Um, can you can you just take aminute or two now and give our
(24:09):
listeners a bit of an overviewof what you'll be talking about
at the Disrupt Summit?
SPEAKER_03 (24:13):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
So at the Disrupt Summit, we'regoing to be looking in a bit
more detail at Inspire, Train,Sustain, that three-part
process, um, the threeingredients to a really great
rollout plan that makes yourchange stick.
Um, and it's going to be alittle bit more of an
interactive session.
So getting you to think aboutchange that's going on in your
(24:35):
organization or that's comingup, and for you to start
thinking about what will bereally needed to inspire your
people, what kind of trainingmight they need?
Where are their capability gaps?
And what's the best way to getover that?
And then, like we've just beentalking about now, what does a
really good sustained changelook like in your organization?
(24:56):
So I'll be providing lots ofprompts and ideas and examples,
and you'll be thinking about howto apply it yourself.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Excellent.
And just so you don't have anyum uh frightening experiences
when you get there, I'm sure youalready know this, but it is a
quite unique format.
It's five minutes, 20 slides,and we're mean, so we automate
those slides to rotate every 15seconds.
SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
Uh so this this second challenge was good
practice then.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Exactly, exactly.
I had a speaker rock up at oneof uh one of the disrupts fairly
recently, and they weren't awarethat the slides do automate.
So they had a moment.
Um just finally for today,Georgie, how can our listeners
connect with you?
So is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool all over theTikToks and places?
And of course, how can listenerslearn more about Lima Delta?
SPEAKER_03 (25:42):
Uh sadly, I'm not cool enough for TikTok.
Um, I am often hanging out onLinkedIn though.
I like to do weekly videossharing kind of things that I've
learned from my clients.
So feel free to follow me there.
It's Georgina Cook on LinkedIn.
I'd love to connect.
And then specifically about LimaDelta, um, obviously you can
find us at our website.
(26:02):
Um, but specifically, if you'vegot a change kind of coming up
and this has resonated with you,then we've got a specific um
landing page, which um you canfind the link um in the notes
for this, which um it just tellsyou a bit about a specific offer
we've got on PathfinderWorkshops, which is a workshop
where we help you map out,inspire, train, sustain for your
(26:24):
change.
So we've got a few spots leftfor this year.
So if that's interesting, youcan take a look there and sign
up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:31):
Okay, lots of ways to connect, and there will be
this dedicated landing page justfor you beautiful listeners.
So there we go.
Georgie, that just leaves me tosay for today.
Thank you very much for being myguest.
SPEAKER_03 (26:41):
Thanks for having me.
I've really enjoyed the chat.
SPEAKER_02 (26:43):
And listeners, as always, until next time, happy
working.
SPEAKER_00 (26:50):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode, whynot subscribe and listen to some
of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette?
And remember, for what's new inthe world of work, subscribe to
the show, follow us on socialmedia, and visit hrgazette.com.
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