The human element of HR technology is often overlooked in favor of features and functions but, as our latest HRchat episode reveals, successful HCM technology implementation hinges on strategic alignment with business goals and effective change management.
Jacqueline Kuhn and Priscilla Redd Sparrow, two of the four authors of the newly updated second edition of HRchitect’s Guide to HCM Technology: What You Need to Know Before Your Next HCM Technology Purchase, share crucial insights that challenge conventional thinking about HR technology investments. The most striking revelation? Many HR leaders still position technology as a departmental efficiency tool rather than what it should be – a strategic business asset that puts critical information in decision-makers' hands.
When evaluating potential vendors, beware of representatives who dance around direct questions or offer superficial change management support disguised as comprehensive solutions. As Priscilla explains, effective change management goes far beyond basic communication and training, requiring dedicated resources and a structured approach that engages employees throughout the implementation journey. Organizations must recognize that real change begins at go-live, not ends there, with different individuals adapting at varying paces.
The AI revolution has made HCM systems more user-friendly for practitioners, but its effectiveness depends entirely on data quality. Organizations must ensure clean, comprehensive data structures and move away from manual spreadsheet processes that undermine AI-driven insights. Regardless of company size, powerful tools are now accessible at various price points – the key is understanding your specific needs and selecting appropriate solutions.
Perhaps most importantly, HR professionals must embrace this guiding principle: "AI isn't going to replace you, but if you're not using AI, you will be replaced by someone who is." With insufficient resources and poor planning ranking as the top reasons technology projects fail, strategic investment in consulting support often makes the difference between success and failure. Remember that purchasing and implementing technology is just the beginning – the real value emerges through effective utilization and maintenance over time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
HRGazettecom and visithrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
To truly support both the business and its people,
organisations need the right HCMtech in place tools that help
teams run smoothly and stayaligned with employee needs.
Hey, this is Bill Bannam, hostof this episode, and in this
episode of the HR Chat Pod, Isit down with Jacqueline Kuhn
(00:46):
and Priscilla Sparrow, two ofthe authors behind the newly
updated second edition ofHRchitect's Guide to HCM
Technology what you need to knowbefore your next HCM technology
purchase.
We'll dive into the practicalside of HCM tech, including how
to take your knowledge and turnit into real world impact.
(01:06):
If you're thinking about yournext tech investment, this
conversation will give youinspiration and guidance on
building your HR servicedelivery model, crafting an HCM
strategy, evaluating systems,managing implementation and
knowing what to expect after.
Go live.
Jacqueline and Priscilla.
(01:27):
It's my pleasure to welcome youto the show today.
Jacqueline's been on the showbefore.
It's nice to get to hang outwith you again.
Priscilla, this is your firsttime, so, as as we mentioned
before, we hit record, we'regoing to go easy on you, don't
worry about that.
The first question I've got I'dlike to ask of both of you
Jacqueline, perhaps you'd liketo go first on this one and then
Priscilla, if you've gotanything you'd like to add off
to that, that would be great,and that's around the the book
(01:50):
and the purpose of the book.
This is the second edition, ofcourse.
What's changed, I guess, is themain question there and as part
of that, what, what gaps in themarket or common pitfalls were
you hoping to address for HRpros in this updated edition?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, so it's been almost four years since the last
edition and a lot has changed,particularly the emergence of AI
has just proliferated HR andthat there's now a whole new
whole chapter on AI and HR andwhat an HR professional needs to
(02:29):
know.
And that's you know, four yearsis a long time for a technology
book to to be sitting on a shelfbecause tech changes so quickly
.
So we decided that now was thetime to dust it off and update
it.
And really the whole purpose ofthe book is to educate the
buyer, educate the HR technologyHCM buyer, to help them think
(02:53):
about the things that they needto know before making a purchase
.
It's really a quick I alwayscall it an airplane read right,
it's not a novel, it's a novella, but you know it.
Just it's a little longer thanthe last book because there's
more content, but that's the bigthing.
(03:13):
And then Priscilla joined theteam since the last book was
published and she's a certifiedchange management professional.
So one of the other reasons forpublishing the book is to put
our new and improved methodologyand her take on what HR
professionals need to know aboutchange management.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Wonderful.
So it sounds like, priscilla,you're a great addition to the
team.
What would you like to addthere to that answer?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yes.
So just again, just kind ofthinking about the role of HR
professionals and how criticalthat role would be to effective
change management.
When you really think about theHR professional or the HR team
and how they are uniquelypositioned in the organization,
they already understand thoseteams from really the top down
(04:04):
and so engaging them in thechange management methodology,
the approach, especially for anHCM implementation where we
specialize, you know they canreally speak to the needs, they
are already positioned toeffectively communicate and so
(04:26):
we really want them tounderstand how valuable their
role would be in the success ofthe implementation or change
initiative.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at HRGazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Wonderful.
Thank you, priscilla.
Just a quick follow-up for youthere, if you don't mind, based
on something that Jacquelinesaid in her answer and that's
you guys have added a wholesection around the impact of ai.
Uh, and I was at hr tech lastyear in vegas everything is
labeled ai powered this, aifueled that and ai is very much
(05:16):
part of the public consciousnessnow.
Um, I got on board a few yearsago.
Now I run a bunch of ai and hrrelated events, primarily in the
UK.
How much has AI really changedthe HR tech stack over the past
specifically four years?
We're talking four years nowsince the last edition.
Is it really that dramatic?
What functions have beendramatically changed in those
(05:39):
years?
Or actually is it just acontinuation of something we saw
five, six, seven years ago?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
So I guess I'll take that and I wouldn't say it has
dramatically changed the HCMtech stack.
What it has done is make itmore HR user friendly right.
The assistants are probably alittle more polished.
They work a little bit better,not as generic as they used to
(06:06):
be.
The reporting and insights youcan get have been refined a
little bit.
So I think it's more of a.
The capabilities are now moreusable by a practitioner and you
don't need to be a technowizard to really leverage it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
To me, that's the biggest change is is it's now
usable yeah, for example, um, wewe work with a lot of people at
our events, uh, who promote nocode ai, and it just seems to be
far more user friendly todaythan it was just a few years ago
.
Um, okay, uh, jacqueline, foryou the.
The title of the book hints atbeing a roadmap for buyers.
Of course, what's the biggestmisconception that HR leaders
(06:48):
still have when approachingtheir next HCM technology
purchase?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, they still believe that the technology is
for their departments to be moreeffective.
I cannot believe that in theyear 2025, they haven't thought
of it as a tool for the businessto manage their people assets.
It floors me how many leaderswe get in front of and their
(07:17):
whole business case is aboutmaking themselves more efficient
and effective, and that is notwhat HCM technology does today.
Hcm technology is all aboutputting information in the hands
of decision makers who can makebetter decisions because they
know their people, and I thinkwe kind of beefed up some of the
(07:40):
language around that in thisversion of the book because I do
not believe the HR world hascompletely and fully grasped
that concept.
They understand the importanceof putting information in the
employees' hands, but we stillsee HR leaders afraid of putting
(08:01):
information in the managerhands the HR leaders afraid of
putting information in themanager hands.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes
things up, it makes you thinkdifferently and it leaves you
inspired.
That event is Disrupt HR.
The format is 14 speakers, fiveminutes each and slides rotate
every 15 seconds.
If you're an HR professional, aCEO, a technologist or a
community leader, and you're anHR professional, a CEO, a
technologist or a communityleader and you've got something
to say about talent, culture ortechnology, disrupt is the place
(08:39):
.
It's coming soon to a city nearyou.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Learn more at DisruptHRco.
Okay, thank you.
And then when it comes tostrategy and readiness,
Jacqueline, you talk aboutaligning HCM strategies with the
C-suite.
This is an ongoing discussionthat we have on this show about
how HR leaders can have a placeat the top table.
What are some tips for HRleaders who want to better
(09:01):
position themselves as astrategic partner during HCM
tech planning?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I always say follow the money, know how your
organization makes money, knowhow the roles in your
organization affect that andmake sure that you have the
right talent, the rightdevelopment, the right processes
in place so that those rolescan do their jobs and help make
(09:30):
money.
I mean, that is what HR tendsto miss.
The strategic value of the HCMis those key roles that drive
the top and bottom line need tobe nurtured and developed and
recruited and you get strongplayers and you people who can
make a difference and and nowyour seat at the table is
(09:52):
stronger because you haveimpacted the top and bottom line
next question maybe it's forJacqueline, maybe it's for
Priscilla, maybe it's for both.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Uh, it's on evolution and selection.
I wonder if one or both of youcan suggest one or two red flags
that HR pros should look forduring the evaluation and vendor
selection process that maysignal future headaches post
implementation.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I'll take a first crack at that, speaking with a
potential software vendor andyou ask them a question directly
and they dance around theanswer.
You do not get a clear answer.
It is not acceptable.
You should get an answer toyour question and I think that
(10:42):
there are a lot of.
There are great salespeople whowill be direct and say no, we
don't do that.
But it's when you have asalesperson more interested in
selling the product than makingsure they make the right sale,
where they're going to dancearound and people buy products
that won't work for them.
And I think that a piece in thebook really talks about how
(11:08):
technology today works.
I mean, it does work.
Whether or not it works for youis what you have to figure out,
and if you're talking with avendor who isn't answering your
questions to your satisfaction,it's time to break that
relationship, because if itcan't work for you, then it's
(11:28):
not going to be a good, a goodbuy.
I think the other red flag andI will let Priscilla talk about
this, because this directlyimpacts change management is
when the vendor says oh, yeah,we have full change management
and they actually have a 10slide PowerPoint.
(11:49):
Priscilla, talk about that redflag.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, it's just themisconceptions of what change
management really means and whatit really looks like from an
from a change initiativestandpoint.
Oftentimes we hear, yeah, wewant to communicate and we want
to make sure that we have goodtraining, but it's so much more
(12:13):
than that and when we reallythink about, you know, employee
engagement or employeeexperience that are often one of
the project outcomes on theseimplementations of the project
outcomes on theseimplementations, it's really
about how do we engage themearly on, giving them
opportunities for that two-wayfeedback, assessing that change
(12:36):
readiness along the way, and sothat's always a little bit of a
red flag to me when they don'treally understand what change
management really should looklike, even from a dedicated
resource perspective, and all ofthe work and the effort that we
(12:57):
need to put in to be successful.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, because vendors actually, when they try to sell
product, try to downplay theamount of effort it takes to
implement um and and literallyhand people a 12 page powerpoint
here.
Here's your change managementand and of course that's going
to fail just to follow up tothat.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Then, uh, to one or both of you you guys, you guys
pick.
But uh, this is the secondedition.
Now, you've got alwayswonderful updated information in
there.
How are you, how are youcollecting your data?
How are you keeping relevant?
How are you keeping current?
What are you?
What are you doing for that?
So what, what are thoseconversations with vendors look
like?
For example, is that demos?
Are you having conversations onthe expo floors?
Uh, are you doing, uh,co-authored research with other
(13:44):
folks around this?
Tell us a bit more about that.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, so it's all of the above we have.
Well, because we issue so manyRFPs a year, we probably see the
top eight to 10 vendors six orseven times a year anyway,
because we're just in the RFPprocess and even outside of that
, once a quarter usually we takean hour meeting, understand the
(14:11):
roadmap.
We go to HR tech, we read allthe news wires.
We have a membership insomething here in the US called
the Advisor Collective.
That's other people like us whoall we have our own little
association of people who dostrategic consulting and we
(14:31):
share information as well.
We share you know who'sperforming, who isn't.
What did they learn about avendor that they didn't know?
That was like hidden deeply.
So we've created our own littlenetwork of people who also has
information and in that way wetend we have about 500 detailed
(14:56):
requirements on every vendor andwhether or not they meet them
across the whole HR spectrum.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Yeah, and for the change management side, I mean,
some of the things that I do tostay current is, you know, that
constant kind of research,networking around the latest
trends.
So I'm certified in this changemanagement space a member of,
you know, the Florida chapterhere and also locally staying
engaged, certainly, with otherprofessionals and practitioners.
So locally staying engaged,certainly with other
professionals and practitioners,just you know what are the, the
, the trends currently, what'sup and coming and really
(15:43):
learning from those who alsohave have experience of what's
working well in this industry isalso.
I've been a practitioner nowfor a little over a decade and
so it's when you think about howoften and rapid things continue
to change, especially in thetechnology space, there's
certainly always room for growthand learning, so I try to stay
plugged in.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Excellent, and I think I heard that from
Jacqueline.
You have 500 different types ofcriteria that you're judging
these vendors on.
Is that right?
Yes, that's prettycomprehensive.
Very good, very good, priscilla.
Uh, let's talk aboutimplementation and change
management a bit more.
Change management is, of course, your forte.
It is, of course, yourspeciality.
What's one of the biggestmistakes that organizations make
(16:21):
during hcm implementation andwhat would be your top tip for
ways that they can avoid that?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
It's just the kind of misconception of what does
effective structured theimplementation of change
management really look like.
I think that there's just somemisconceptions around that.
Really again, the work and theeffort that we would need to put
(16:48):
in to have an effective changemanagement implementation but
also having the dedicatedresources.
So as a consulting firm, youknow we really partner with
those internal resources to kindof just help be the face of
change and to drive theactivities, the planning around
(17:09):
that and so just really trusting, you know, your partner in
terms of the expertise, but justunderstanding as well that
there's work to be done aroundthis effective change management
approach and so to have theresources that we need on hand
(17:32):
to accomplish that is criticalin that success.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Okay, we are flying through this conversation,
Jacqueline, for you.
How do you see the role of AI?
Let's talk more about AI.
How do you see the role of AIcontinuing to shape HCM systems?
What should HR pros be doingnow to stay ahead and stay
relevant in 12 months, 18 months, 24 months time?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
The way AI works is based on good data for the most
part, right?
If you don't have good data,the AI can't give you good
answers and it all gets back toprocess and data.
Make sure that before you startusing you know agentic AI and
creating insights, that yourdata is clean, that you have
(18:19):
everything you need to answeryour questions.
So you can ask the AI aquestion, but if you're missing
key parts of the information,you're not going to get a good
answer.
So it all goes back to thebasics, right, I mean, there are
just basics that technology canhelp with, but you have to have
good data going in.
(18:40):
I think the other thing is,when you go back to the, you
know how to be strategic, followthe money, know what
information you need that willmake the biggest bang, right,
that will make the biggestcontribution.
And make sure that you've gotinformation that you're
collecting, the information thatyou need to either make those
(19:01):
predictions or give you know,give insights, etc.
And so right now is really whenyou should be taking a look at
anything you have on aspreadsheet.
Anything that is not actuallyin an application that AI is
using, you have to get it inthere.
So many organizations todaydownload their HR information,
(19:24):
augment it in Excel and thencreate reporting or dashboards
outside of the HCM.
That has to stop.
You know, if your HCM can't doit, maybe you need to buy a
third party reporting tool.
You don't necessarily have totrash your entire HR payroll
system.
There are lots of really greatreporting tools out there that
(19:48):
can do it for you.
So you really need to start by.
What do I need to know that Idon't know today.
What am I compiling manuallythat you know the AI can do for
me, and what questions shouldthe C-suite be asking me about
our people so that they can makegood business decisions?
(20:09):
And you know, make sure you'vegot that data dictionary and
make sure if you are a globalorganization, it's a global data
dictionary.
Make sure that you take aninventory of everywhere you are
around the world and you havethe same information on people
everywhere around the world.
Ai is great, but if your dataisn't good, it's the same old
(20:31):
garbage in, garbage out we'vebeen talking about for the past
30, 40 years.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I did a Disrupt HR talk on exactly this and I had a
garbage in, garbage out slideuh, just just a couple of months
ago.
Okay, so, in terms of beingable to access the technology
that folks need for youmentioned reporting tools and
and to help with budgets, forexample, jacqueline, is the
technology now available to theto the smes as well as the big
(20:57):
guys?
It should there be nothingstopping the smaller companies
from being able to access thelevel of analytics around their
people compared to the big guys?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Absolutely, absolutely, the tools in place
today.
There are enterprise-strengthtools that are priced for SMEs.
There are SME tools as wellthat are very good.
So you know there's no.
There's so much technology.
There are so many apps outthere.
(21:26):
Size of organization is not abarrier to entry anymore.
It's really, you know,understanding what you need, and
that's where you know folkslike us can come into play.
We can, you know, ask what youneed, and that's where you know
folks like us can come into play.
We can, you know, ask thoseprobing questions and help you
understand what it is you needand buy the appropriate tool for
(21:49):
your needs and budget.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
There we go.
There are solutions for all ofyou out there listeners.
Priscilla, sometimes changetakes time.
What advice do you have for HRteams managing stakeholder
expectations when results fromnew HCM systems aren't exactly
immediately visible?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
yeah, absolutely, change definitely takes time and
we often share and andreiterate that change really
begins at go live when you thinkabout implementations, and so
that's really where the peoplewho are impacted by the change
(22:28):
really start to utilize thosenew business processes.
You know the system that's beenimplemented and when you think
about change management, it'sreally the people side.
So it's the human reactions,whether they embrace, whether
they're kind of moving a littleslower through that change curve
(22:49):
, but really keeping a pulse onhow well those measures that we
should always identify before weimplement a change to be able
to understand what is working,where we're hitting our targets
(23:10):
and because, again, with thehuman aspects of of going
through change, people are goingto go through change at
different rates, at differentpaces, and so to kind of take
that patience to understandwhere they are will also help us
to determine where to providethat additional support and to
(23:34):
also again keep a pulse on umjust how the people are moving
through their own change curveand change experience.
So it's that individual uhframework that we also often
focus on uh to support themthrough their experience got
that song in my head now changes.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Uh, okay, two more questions for you, for both of
you.
Uh, priscilla, if you'd like togo first on this one, what's
one actionable piece of adviceyou hope every reader and hr hr
chat listener as well, of coursetakes away from from the book
yeah, what I would really likefor them to take away from the
book is really thinking abouthow their organization is
positioned to support changemanagement currently.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
And if the experience level is not really there where
they would like for it to be,don't hesitate to call on a
partner to bring in thatexperience, that methodology,
expert knowledge, to really helpthem establish a structured
(24:40):
approach that is going to be,that is going to be put together
for appropriate for theirorganization and their change
initiative, so to kind of havethat support and that
partnership is really going tomake a difference and go a long
way.
And Jacqueline, what about you?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I have a couple of things.
I think.
The first thing is reallyunderstand that when you're
buying new HCM technology, it isnot about the purchase, it is
not about the implementation, itis about living with it,
sustainment and the care andfeeding.
I always use the analogy it'slike buying a house the day you
(25:21):
buy a house is the day it begins.
Your life begins or ends,depending on how you look at it,
or your pocketbook gets lighter.
But it's not about the buying,it's about the using right, it's
about the decorating, it'sabout everything you do with
what you bought.
So, really, when you read thebook, I hope everybody
understands that the purchase isjust the beginning.
(25:44):
The other thing and another realreason to add an entire chapter
about AI is I was at Unleashlast year and there was a quote
where and I don't remember whosaid it, but the quote was AI
isn't going to replace you.
However, if you are not usingAI, you will be replaced with
(26:06):
someone who is.
So understand the kinds of AIthat's out there, how it can
benefit you, how it can makeyour organization more efficient
and effective, and begin toadopt it.
Don't be the last one on yourblock to get AI.
This is not the kind of thingto wait and see.
So don't be the last person toadopt it and then make sure you
(26:29):
budget for help, for consultinghelp.
Not having enough time andresources is the number one
reason projects fail.
Not having proper planning isthe number two reason projects
fail.
So, when you read the book,understand what it takes to buy,
(26:51):
implement, care and feed yourtechnology, and don't be afraid
to buy supplemental resourcesfor for all of that, because it
is in that that you will, youknow, really be successful.
You don't have to build up yourteam, you don't have to have,
(27:11):
you know, paid, paid wageearners to to make this happen.
Outsource smart andstrategically.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
And if you want to learn more about outsourcing
smart, you should probably getin contact with Priscilla and
with Jacqueline.
So, with that, how can folksconnect with you?
Is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share youremails or are you all over the
other socials?
By the way, priscilla, I shotyou a LinkedIn connection
request about three minutesbefore our call today.
And, of course, how can folksget a copy of the second edition
(27:42):
of ebook?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
So yes, we are all over LinkedIn.
It is my name Jacqueline Kuhn,or you can email me jkuhn at
harchitectcom.
The book is available today onAmazon.
There is a Kindle as well as apaperback version, so if you
aren't a reader but you like tolisten to books while you're
driving or working out, you canbuy the Kindle version as well.
(28:06):
That's probably the best way toget it.
And, Priscilla, you're onLinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I am on LinkedIn as well.
You can find me at PriscillaRed R-E-D-D Sparrow on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
red r-e-d-d sparrow on linkedin my email is p, as in
priscilla sparrow, like thebird at h architect dot com, and
it also sounds like folks canmaybe meet you at various
different events.
Uh, jacqueline, you mentionedunleash just a moment ago.
You also mentioned hr techearlier on.
I'm I can't make it to unleashamerica this, although one of
our colleagues is going to bethere, but I will be at HR Tech
later this year, so we'll haveto get together.
(28:45):
Maybe we'll record an episodetogether on the shop's floor, so
to speak.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yeah, we won't be at Unleash either, but we will be
at HR Tech and Priscilla will beat the ACMP national meeting in
Chicago in May.
So any of you change people outthere or HR people looking to
change, she will be at that onein Chicago this May.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Okay, even more ways to connect.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today, jacqueline,
lovely to chat to you again.
Priscilla, great getting toknow you for the first time,
thank you.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Absolutely Same here, bill.
Thank you for having me have agreat day everyone.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Thanks for listening to the HRChat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
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Speaker 2 (00:26):
To truly support both the business and its people,
organisations need the right HCMtech in place tools that help
teams run smoothly and stayaligned with employee needs.
Hey, this is Bill Bannam, hostof this episode, and in this
episode of the HR Chat Pod, Isit down with Jacqueline Kuhn
(00:46):
and Priscilla Sparrow, two ofthe authors behind the newly
updated second edition ofHRchitect's Guide to HCM
Technology what you need to knowbefore your next HCM technology
purchase.
We'll dive into the practicalside of HCM tech, including how
to take your knowledge and turnit into real world impact.
(01:06):
If you're thinking about yournext tech investment, this
conversation will give youinspiration and guidance on
building your HR servicedelivery model, crafting an HCM
strategy, evaluating systems,managing implementation and
knowing what to expect after.
Go live.
Jacqueline and Priscilla.
(01:27):
It's my pleasure to welcome youto the show today.
Jacqueline's been on the showbefore.
It's nice to get to hang outwith you again.
Priscilla, this is your firsttime, so, as as we mentioned
before, we hit record, we'regoing to go easy on you, don't
worry about that.
The first question I've got I'dlike to ask of both of you
Jacqueline, perhaps you'd liketo go first on this one and then
Priscilla, if you've gotanything you'd like to add off
to that, that would be great,and that's around the the book
(01:50):
and the purpose of the book.
This is the second edition, ofcourse.
What's changed, I guess, is themain question there and as part
of that, what, what gaps in themarket or common pitfalls were
you hoping to address for HRpros in this updated edition?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yeah, so it's been almost four years since the last
edition and a lot has changed,particularly the emergence of AI
has just proliferated HR andthat there's now a whole new
whole chapter on AI and HR andwhat an HR professional needs to
(02:29):
know.
And that's you know, four yearsis a long time for a technology
book to to be sitting on a shelfbecause tech changes so quickly
.
So we decided that now was thetime to dust it off and update
it.
And really the whole purpose ofthe book is to educate the
buyer, educate the HR technologyHCM buyer, to help them think
(02:53):
about the things that they needto know before making a purchase
.
It's really a quick I alwayscall it an airplane read right,
it's not a novel, it's a novella, but you know it.
Just it's a little longer thanthe last book because there's
more content, but that's the bigthing.
(03:13):
And then Priscilla joined theteam since the last book was
published and she's a certifiedchange management professional.
So one of the other reasons forpublishing the book is to put
our new and improved methodologyand her take on what HR
professionals need to know aboutchange management.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Wonderful.
So it sounds like, priscilla,you're a great addition to the
team.
What would you like to addthere to that answer?
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yes.
So just again, just kind ofthinking about the role of HR
professionals and how criticalthat role would be to effective
change management.
When you really think about theHR professional or the HR team
and how they are uniquelypositioned in the organization,
they already understand thoseteams from really the top down
(04:04):
and so engaging them in thechange management methodology,
the approach, especially for anHCM implementation where we
specialize, you know they canreally speak to the needs, they
are already positioned toeffectively communicate and so
(04:26):
we really want them tounderstand how valuable their
role would be in the success ofthe implementation or change
initiative.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette.
Learn more at HRGazettecom.
And now back to the show.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Wonderful.
Thank you, priscilla.
Just a quick follow-up for youthere, if you don't mind, based
on something that Jacquelinesaid in her answer and that's
you guys have added a wholesection around the impact of ai.
Uh, and I was at hr tech lastyear in vegas everything is
labeled ai powered this, aifueled that and ai is very much
(05:16):
part of the public consciousnessnow.
Um, I got on board a few yearsago.
Now I run a bunch of ai and hrrelated events, primarily in the
UK.
How much has AI really changedthe HR tech stack over the past
specifically four years?
We're talking four years nowsince the last edition.
Is it really that dramatic?
What functions have beendramatically changed in those
(05:39):
years?
Or actually is it just acontinuation of something we saw
five, six, seven years ago?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
So I guess I'll take that and I wouldn't say it has
dramatically changed the HCMtech stack.
What it has done is make itmore HR user friendly right.
The assistants are probably alittle more polished.
They work a little bit better,not as generic as they used to
(06:06):
be.
The reporting and insights youcan get have been refined a
little bit.
So I think it's more of a.
The capabilities are now moreusable by a practitioner and you
don't need to be a technowizard to really leverage it.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
To me, that's the biggest change is is it's now
usable yeah, for example, um, wewe work with a lot of people at
our events, uh, who promote nocode ai, and it just seems to be
far more user friendly todaythan it was just a few years ago
.
Um, okay, uh, jacqueline, foryou the.
The title of the book hints atbeing a roadmap for buyers.
Of course, what's the biggestmisconception that HR leaders
(06:48):
still have when approachingtheir next HCM technology
purchase?
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, they still believe that the technology is
for their departments to be moreeffective.
I cannot believe that in theyear 2025, they haven't thought
of it as a tool for the businessto manage their people assets.
It floors me how many leaderswe get in front of and their
(07:17):
whole business case is aboutmaking themselves more efficient
and effective, and that is notwhat HCM technology does today.
Hcm technology is all aboutputting information in the hands
of decision makers who can makebetter decisions because they
know their people, and I thinkwe kind of beefed up some of the
(07:40):
language around that in thisversion of the book because I do
not believe the HR world hascompletely and fully grasped
that concept.
They understand the importanceof putting information in the
employees' hands, but we stillsee HR leaders afraid of putting
(08:01):
information in the managerhands the HR leaders afraid of
putting information in themanager hands.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
Once in a while, an event series is born that shakes
things up, it makes you thinkdifferently and it leaves you
inspired.
That event is Disrupt HR.
The format is 14 speakers, fiveminutes each and slides rotate
every 15 seconds.
If you're an HR professional, aCEO, a technologist or a
community leader, and you're anHR professional, a CEO, a
technologist or a communityleader and you've got something
to say about talent, culture ortechnology, disrupt is the place
(08:39):
.
It's coming soon to a city nearyou.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Learn more at DisruptHRco.
Okay, thank you.
And then when it comes tostrategy and readiness,
Jacqueline, you talk aboutaligning HCM strategies with the
C-suite.
This is an ongoing discussionthat we have on this show about
how HR leaders can have a placeat the top table.
What are some tips for HRleaders who want to better
(09:01):
position themselves as astrategic partner during HCM
tech planning?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
I always say follow the money, know how your
organization makes money, knowhow the roles in your
organization affect that andmake sure that you have the
right talent, the rightdevelopment, the right processes
in place so that those rolescan do their jobs and help make
(09:30):
money.
I mean, that is what HR tendsto miss.
The strategic value of the HCMis those key roles that drive
the top and bottom line need tobe nurtured and developed and
recruited and you get strongplayers and you people who can
make a difference and and nowyour seat at the table is
(09:52):
stronger because you haveimpacted the top and bottom line
next question maybe it's forJacqueline, maybe it's for
Priscilla, maybe it's for both.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Uh, it's on evolution and selection.
I wonder if one or both of youcan suggest one or two red flags
that HR pros should look forduring the evaluation and vendor
selection process that maysignal future headaches post
implementation.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
I'll take a first crack at that, speaking with a
potential software vendor andyou ask them a question directly
and they dance around theanswer.
You do not get a clear answer.
It is not acceptable.
You should get an answer toyour question and I think that
(10:42):
there are a lot of.
There are great salespeople whowill be direct and say no, we
don't do that.
But it's when you have asalesperson more interested in
selling the product than makingsure they make the right sale,
where they're going to dancearound and people buy products
that won't work for them.
And I think that a piece in thebook really talks about how
(11:08):
technology today works.
I mean, it does work.
Whether or not it works for youis what you have to figure out,
and if you're talking with avendor who isn't answering your
questions to your satisfaction,it's time to break that
relationship, because if itcan't work for you, then it's
(11:28):
not going to be a good, a goodbuy.
I think the other red flag andI will let Priscilla talk about
this, because this directlyimpacts change management is
when the vendor says oh, yeah,we have full change management
and they actually have a 10slide PowerPoint.
(11:49):
Priscilla, talk about that redflag.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, it's just themisconceptions of what change
management really means and whatit really looks like from an
from a change initiativestandpoint.
Oftentimes we hear, yeah, wewant to communicate and we want
to make sure that we have goodtraining, but it's so much more
(12:13):
than that and when we reallythink about, you know, employee
engagement or employeeexperience that are often one of
the project outcomes on theseimplementations of the project
outcomes on theseimplementations, it's really
about how do we engage themearly on, giving them
opportunities for that two-wayfeedback, assessing that change
(12:36):
readiness along the way, and sothat's always a little bit of a
red flag to me when they don'treally understand what change
management really should looklike, even from a dedicated
resource perspective, and all ofthe work and the effort that we
(12:57):
need to put in to be successful.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah, because vendors actually, when they try to sell
product, try to downplay theamount of effort it takes to
implement um and and literallyhand people a 12 page powerpoint
here.
Here's your change managementand and of course that's going
to fail just to follow up tothat.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Then, uh, to one or both of you you guys, you guys
pick.
But uh, this is the secondedition.
Now, you've got alwayswonderful updated information in
there.
How are you, how are youcollecting your data?
How are you keeping relevant?
How are you keeping current?
What are you?
What are you doing for that?
So what, what are thoseconversations with vendors look
like?
For example, is that demos?
Are you having conversations onthe expo floors?
Uh, are you doing, uh,co-authored research with other
(13:44):
folks around this?
Tell us a bit more about that.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Yeah, so it's all of the above we have.
Well, because we issue so manyRFPs a year, we probably see the
top eight to 10 vendors six orseven times a year anyway,
because we're just in the RFPprocess and even outside of that
, once a quarter usually we takean hour meeting, understand the
(14:11):
roadmap.
We go to HR tech, we read allthe news wires.
We have a membership insomething here in the US called
the Advisor Collective.
That's other people like us whoall we have our own little
association of people who dostrategic consulting and we
(14:31):
share information as well.
We share you know who'sperforming, who isn't.
What did they learn about avendor that they didn't know?
That was like hidden deeply.
So we've created our own littlenetwork of people who also has
information and in that way wetend we have about 500 detailed
(14:56):
requirements on every vendor andwhether or not they meet them
across the whole HR spectrum.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Yeah, and for the change management side, I mean,
some of the things that I do tostay current is, you know, that
constant kind of research,networking around the latest
trends.
So I'm certified in this changemanagement space a member of,
you know, the Florida chapterhere and also locally staying
engaged, certainly, with otherprofessionals and practitioners.
So locally staying engaged,certainly with other
professionals and practitioners,just you know what are the, the
, the trends currently, what'sup and coming and really
(15:43):
learning from those who alsohave have experience of what's
working well in this industry isalso.
I've been a practitioner nowfor a little over a decade and
so it's when you think about howoften and rapid things continue
to change, especially in thetechnology space, there's
certainly always room for growthand learning, so I try to stay
plugged in.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Excellent, and I think I heard that from
Jacqueline.
You have 500 different types ofcriteria that you're judging
these vendors on.
Is that right?
Yes, that's prettycomprehensive.
Very good, very good, priscilla.
Uh, let's talk aboutimplementation and change
management a bit more.
Change management is, of course, your forte.
It is, of course, yourspeciality.
What's one of the biggestmistakes that organizations make
(16:21):
during hcm implementation andwhat would be your top tip for
ways that they can avoid that?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
It's just the kind of misconception of what does
effective structured theimplementation of change
management really look like.
I think that there's just somemisconceptions around that.
Really again, the work and theeffort that we would need to put
(16:48):
in to have an effective changemanagement implementation but
also having the dedicatedresources.
So as a consulting firm, youknow we really partner with
those internal resources to kindof just help be the face of
change and to drive theactivities, the planning around
(17:09):
that and so just really trusting, you know, your partner in
terms of the expertise, but justunderstanding as well that
there's work to be done aroundthis effective change management
approach and so to have theresources that we need on hand
(17:32):
to accomplish that is criticalin that success.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Okay, we are flying through this conversation,
Jacqueline, for you.
How do you see the role of AI?
Let's talk more about AI.
How do you see the role of AIcontinuing to shape HCM systems?
What should HR pros be doingnow to stay ahead and stay
relevant in 12 months, 18 months, 24 months time?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
The way AI works is based on good data for the most
part, right?
If you don't have good data,the AI can't give you good
answers and it all gets back toprocess and data.
Make sure that before you startusing you know agentic AI and
creating insights, that yourdata is clean, that you have
(18:19):
everything you need to answeryour questions.
So you can ask the AI aquestion, but if you're missing
key parts of the information,you're not going to get a good
answer.
So it all goes back to thebasics, right, I mean, there are
just basics that technology canhelp with, but you have to have
good data going in.
(18:40):
I think the other thing is,when you go back to the, you
know how to be strategic, followthe money, know what
information you need that willmake the biggest bang, right,
that will make the biggestcontribution.
And make sure that you've gotinformation that you're
collecting, the information thatyou need to either make those
(19:01):
predictions or give you know,give insights, etc.
And so right now is really whenyou should be taking a look at
anything you have on aspreadsheet.
Anything that is not actuallyin an application that AI is
using, you have to get it inthere.
So many organizations todaydownload their HR information,
(19:24):
augment it in Excel and thencreate reporting or dashboards
outside of the HCM.
That has to stop.
You know, if your HCM can't doit, maybe you need to buy a
third party reporting tool.
You don't necessarily have totrash your entire HR payroll
system.
There are lots of really greatreporting tools out there that
(19:48):
can do it for you.
So you really need to start by.
What do I need to know that Idon't know today.
What am I compiling manuallythat you know the AI can do for
me, and what questions shouldthe C-suite be asking me about
our people so that they can makegood business decisions?
(20:09):
And you know, make sure you'vegot that data dictionary and
make sure if you are a globalorganization, it's a global data
dictionary.
Make sure that you take aninventory of everywhere you are
around the world and you havethe same information on people
everywhere around the world.
Ai is great, but if your dataisn't good, it's the same old
(20:31):
garbage in, garbage out we'vebeen talking about for the past
30, 40 years.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I did a Disrupt HR talk on exactly this and I had a
garbage in, garbage out slideuh, just just a couple of months
ago.
Okay, so, in terms of beingable to access the technology
that folks need for youmentioned reporting tools and
and to help with budgets, forexample, jacqueline, is the
technology now available to theto the smes as well as the big
(20:57):
guys?
It should there be nothingstopping the smaller companies
from being able to access thelevel of analytics around their
people compared to the big guys?
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Absolutely, absolutely, the tools in place
today.
There are enterprise-strengthtools that are priced for SMEs.
There are SME tools as wellthat are very good.
So you know there's no.
There's so much technology.
There are so many apps outthere.
(21:26):
Size of organization is not abarrier to entry anymore.
It's really, you know,understanding what you need, and
that's where you know folkslike us can come into play.
We can, you know, ask what youneed, and that's where you know
folks like us can come into play.
We can, you know, ask thoseprobing questions and help you
understand what it is you needand buy the appropriate tool for
(21:49):
your needs and budget.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
There we go.
There are solutions for all ofyou out there listeners.
Priscilla, sometimes changetakes time.
What advice do you have for HRteams managing stakeholder
expectations when results fromnew HCM systems aren't exactly
immediately visible?
Speaker 4 (22:08):
yeah, absolutely, change definitely takes time and
we often share and andreiterate that change really
begins at go live when you thinkabout implementations, and so
that's really where the peoplewho are impacted by the change
(22:28):
really start to utilize thosenew business processes.
You know the system that's beenimplemented and when you think
about change management, it'sreally the people side.
So it's the human reactions,whether they embrace, whether
they're kind of moving a littleslower through that change curve
(22:49):
, but really keeping a pulse onhow well those measures that we
should always identify before weimplement a change to be able
to understand what is working,where we're hitting our targets
(23:10):
and because, again, with thehuman aspects of of going
through change, people are goingto go through change at
different rates, at differentpaces, and so to kind of take
that patience to understandwhere they are will also help us
to determine where to providethat additional support and to
(23:34):
also again keep a pulse on umjust how the people are moving
through their own change curveand change experience.
So it's that individual uhframework that we also often
focus on uh to support themthrough their experience got
that song in my head now changes.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Uh, okay, two more questions for you, for both of
you.
Uh, priscilla, if you'd like togo first on this one, what's
one actionable piece of adviceyou hope every reader and hr hr
chat listener as well, of coursetakes away from from the book
yeah, what I would really likefor them to take away from the
book is really thinking abouthow their organization is
positioned to support changemanagement currently.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
And if the experience level is not really there where
they would like for it to be,don't hesitate to call on a
partner to bring in thatexperience, that methodology,
expert knowledge, to really helpthem establish a structured
(24:40):
approach that is going to be,that is going to be put together
for appropriate for theirorganization and their change
initiative, so to kind of havethat support and that
partnership is really going tomake a difference and go a long
way.
And Jacqueline, what about you?
Speaker 3 (24:59):
I have a couple of things.
I think.
The first thing is reallyunderstand that when you're
buying new HCM technology, it isnot about the purchase, it is
not about the implementation, itis about living with it,
sustainment and the care andfeeding.
I always use the analogy it'slike buying a house the day you
(25:21):
buy a house is the day it begins.
Your life begins or ends,depending on how you look at it,
or your pocketbook gets lighter.
But it's not about the buying,it's about the using right, it's
about the decorating, it'sabout everything you do with
what you bought.
So, really, when you read thebook, I hope everybody
understands that the purchase isjust the beginning.
(25:44):
The other thing and another realreason to add an entire chapter
about AI is I was at Unleashlast year and there was a quote
where and I don't remember whosaid it, but the quote was AI
isn't going to replace you.
However, if you are not usingAI, you will be replaced with
(26:06):
someone who is.
So understand the kinds of AIthat's out there, how it can
benefit you, how it can makeyour organization more efficient
and effective, and begin toadopt it.
Don't be the last one on yourblock to get AI.
This is not the kind of thingto wait and see.
So don't be the last person toadopt it and then make sure you
(26:29):
budget for help, for consultinghelp.
Not having enough time andresources is the number one
reason projects fail.
Not having proper planning isthe number two reason projects
fail.
So, when you read the book,understand what it takes to buy,
(26:51):
implement, care and feed yourtechnology, and don't be afraid
to buy supplemental resourcesfor for all of that, because it
is in that that you will, youknow, really be successful.
You don't have to build up yourteam, you don't have to have,
(27:11):
you know, paid, paid wageearners to to make this happen.
Outsource smart andstrategically.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
And if you want to learn more about outsourcing
smart, you should probably getin contact with Priscilla and
with Jacqueline.
So, with that, how can folksconnect with you?
Is that LinkedIn?
Do you want to share youremails or are you all over the
other socials?
By the way, priscilla, I shotyou a LinkedIn connection
request about three minutesbefore our call today.
And, of course, how can folksget a copy of the second edition
(27:42):
of ebook?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
So yes, we are all over LinkedIn.
It is my name Jacqueline Kuhn,or you can email me jkuhn at
harchitectcom.
The book is available today onAmazon.
There is a Kindle as well as apaperback version, so if you
aren't a reader but you like tolisten to books while you're
driving or working out, you canbuy the Kindle version as well.
(28:06):
That's probably the best way toget it.
And, Priscilla, you're onLinkedIn.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
I am on LinkedIn as well.
You can find me at PriscillaRed R-E-D-D Sparrow on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
red r-e-d-d sparrow on linkedin my email is p, as in
priscilla sparrow, like thebird at h architect dot com, and
it also sounds like folks canmaybe meet you at various
different events.
Uh, jacqueline, you mentionedunleash just a moment ago.
You also mentioned hr techearlier on.
I'm I can't make it to unleashamerica this, although one of
our colleagues is going to bethere, but I will be at HR Tech
later this year, so we'll haveto get together.
(28:45):
Maybe we'll record an episodetogether on the shop's floor, so
to speak.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
Yeah, we won't be at Unleash either, but we will be
at HR Tech and Priscilla will beat the ACMP national meeting in
Chicago in May.
So any of you change people outthere or HR people looking to
change, she will be at that onein Chicago this May.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
Okay, even more ways to connect.
Well, that just leaves me tosay for today, jacqueline,
lovely to chat to you again.
Priscilla, great getting toknow you for the first time,
thank you.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Absolutely Same here, bill.
Thank you for having me have agreat day everyone.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And listeners as always.
Until next time, happy working.
Thanks for listening to the HRChat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
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