December 18, 2025 • 40 mins
What if the biggest disruption to work isn’t AI, automation, or hybrid models—but a 100-year-old idea about when careers are supposed to peak and decline?
In episode 868, Pauline James speaks with Lisa Taylor, CEO of Challenge Factory, about why traditional career models are fundamentally broken in a world where many people will live well into their 80s and beyond. Together, they unpack how outdated assumptions about age, productivity, and “career ladders” quietly undermine engagement, waste talent, and accelerate disengagement—especially in midlife.
Lisa explains how the concept of retirement at 65 was created for a very different era, why career conversations often disappear after age 49, and how manager bias—not performance—drives perceptions of declining productivity among experienced workers.
The conversation also explores the idea of the “talent escalator”—and what happens when senior leaders reach the top with nowhere meaningful left to go. Lisa shares what progressive organisations are doing differently: designing roles beyond the final rung, enabling intergenerational mentorship, and creating space for purpose, contribution, and renewal across longer working lives.
For individuals feeling stuck or ready to pivot, Lisa offers a practical alternative to the traditional CV-first approach—starting instead with purpose, strengths, values, and market relevance.
This is a must-listen for HR leaders, executives, and professionals rethinking careers, longevity, and the future of work.
Key Topics Covered
- Why retirement at 65 no longer makes sense in a world of 82+ year life expectancy
- Midlife as a distinct and valuable career stage—not a decline
- The role of manager bias in perceived productivity drops
- Why career development conversations often stop too early
- The “talent escalator” and how it jams at the top
- Intergenerational teams, mentorship, and cultural ambassadorship
- Why engaging older workers can reduce youth unemployment
- A scientific, hypothesis-driven approach to talent strategy
- Rethinking career pivots, entrepreneurship, and longer working lives
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talented zets, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
hrgazette.com.
SPEAKER_03 (00:25):
Hello, I'm Pauline James, CEO of Anchor HR and
associate editor of the HRGazette.
For too long, careers have beendescribed as if they peak and
then they wind down, but lifedoesn't follow a script, and
neither should our careers.
The next chapter explores thechoices, opportunities, and
inspirations that emerge as wecontinue to shape our careers
(00:47):
and lives.
Whether that means continuing togrow and build our careers,
mentoring, reinventing, givingback, or choosing new
priorities.
It's about defining success onour own terms.
We're opening this series byspeaking with Lisa Taylor.
Lisa Taylor is CEO of ChallengeFactory, an internationally
(01:07):
trusted advisory and researchfirm focused on the future of
work.
She supports organizations andpolicymakers in understanding
labor market dynamics and usingcareer development to drive
productivity and workforceadvantage.
A sought-after speaker,columnist, and author, Lisa has
written extensively on careerdevelopment and the future of
(01:29):
work, including the talentrevolution, longevity, and the
future of work.
Her work has been widelyrecognized, including being
named one of Canada's top 100women by the Urban Land
Institute and an outstandingcareer leader by Career
Professionals of Canada.
We are lucky to have herinsights on today's podcast.
(01:49):
Lisa, your body of work and therecognition you've received
speaks volumes to both yourexpertise and the passion that
you bring to this field.
Can you share how you came tohave such a deep interest in the
intersection of the future ofwork and career planning?
SPEAKER_02 (02:06):
It comes out of my personal experience in a large
corporate setting.
I ran a large team.
I had 135 staff.
I was in my early 30s, and theaverage age on my team was 48,
and they had been with thecompany 18 years.
(02:26):
And as a younger manager on asenior leadership team, I had
access to all kinds of tools andprograms and approaches and
conversations that I wassupposed to be having.
And what I found with myamazing, talented, committed,
passionate team who liked thework that they were doing and
(02:46):
had great customer engagementand employee engagement scores,
everything on all of thediagnostics would say this was a
high-performing team that wasdoing really well.
When I would start to get intoconversations with them about
their own careers and their ownfuture, everything would grind
to a halt.
We would end up in these weirdconversations where they would
(03:09):
say, Well, I only have to waitanother eight years and then my
mortgage would be paid off, orLisa, I only have to wait six
years and then my youngest willbe finished in higher education.
And then I can start to imaginewhat I wanted to do next.
So again, average age 48, ageand stage, they were all
(03:32):
deciding that they just neededto get through a relatively long
period of time, you know, sixyears, eight years, 12 years, 15
years.
They all knew how long theyneeded to get through, which
fascinated me as well.
And when I asked them, when Isaid to them, okay, so let's
pretend that today is the day.
Your mortgage is paid off, yourkids have graduated from
(03:55):
wherever they are in highereducation.
And now you actually have thespace and ability to determine
what you want to do next.
How are you going to decide?
And no one knew.
And so that early indicationamong this amazing team who were
smart and creative and able tosolve really challenging
problems in the world, butreally didn't have the tools and
(04:18):
methodology to understand how tosolve their own future career
and life planning got methinking about if this is
universally true and if we havea growing number of people that
are going to be living andworking longer, what is the
impact on productivity, onworkplace wellness for my team,
(04:42):
for the company, for ourprovince, for the country?
So it was from that originalteam that I really started to
dig into the formal field ofcareer development and
understanding the dynamics ofwhat was going to be impacting
labor markets and the future ofwork, and became so convinced
(05:02):
that this disruption was goingto be real.
I decided that I was going toleave my corporate career and
launch one of the firstbusinesses focused in this area
in North America.
Challenge Factory launched in2009, just with me.
It was incorporated with a teamby 2012.
And now in 2025, we arerecognized for our work in this
(05:26):
space all around the world.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
The HR Chat Podcast is one of the world's most
popular shows, offering insightsand tips from HR pros, business
leaders, industry influencers,and tech experts.
World of work topics coveredinclude HR tech, AI, leadership,
talent, recruitment, employeeengagement, wellness, DEI, and
company culture.
(05:48):
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SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
In your book, The Talent Revolution, you
eloquently lay out that thefuture of work and career models
are being significantlydisrupted based on demographics
of the workforce and longevity.
Can you walk us through what isdriving this disruption and also
what makes it urgent?
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
So there's just a couple of facts that form the
foundation for us to be able tohave any kind of conversation on
what's really happening.
The first starting point that isreally important for everyone to
be grounded in is when thisconcept of retirement at age 65
came to be.
It was the 1930s when the USenacted the Social Security Act
(06:42):
and Canada followed around thesame time, which put a marker
both in reality and also in ourmindset of when we should be
considering people retired or ofretirement age at 65.
That's when you started tobecome eligible for Social
Security benefits.
(07:02):
And life expectancy in the yearthat was enacted was 62.
So retirement age is set atthree years past life
expectancy.
And that's because it wasoriginally, as a concept,
brought in in order to be akindness to prevent people who
didn't have any other means tosupport themselves from working
(07:25):
themselves to death.
It was a recognition that atsome point in time you do
actually need to retire.
The dictionary definition ofthat word is to withdraw or to
conclude.
You retire to bed in theevening.
You don't retire to a party orto a vacation.
So it needed the space forpeople to be able to withdraw
(07:47):
and conclude their commercialactivities.
And because of that, they neededsome kind of support in some
cases.
So what's happened since thattime is we have moved from
having a 62-year life expectancyto an 82-year life expectancy.
In one generation, we've gained20 additional years of life.
(08:08):
But our mental model is stillfrozen in time as if it is still
the 1930s when we think aboutour working life expectancy.
And our retirement expectationsare no longer pegged at three
years past life expectancy.
And maybe that was never theright exact place to put it.
(08:29):
But 20 years or 23 years beforethe end of life is probably also
not ideal.
And that's why it's urgentbecause as more and more
individuals are moving throughthis cycle, and this first
generation is approachingretirement with these longer
lifespans.
(08:50):
By 2030, the first baby boomerswill have all turned 65.
As we move through this veryfirst cycle of experiencing both
retirement and longer lifespans,what is not being recognized is
that midlife has not just becomea whole lot longer.
But in around our 50s, weactually shift into a new
(09:12):
segment of life.
That shift is just assignificant as the shift that we
make when we move from childhoodto adolescence, adolescence to
adulthood.
But there isn't this recognitionthat there's a new segment of
life, just as millions andmillions of people are
experiencing this forthemselves.
And so that causes enormousdysfunction.
(09:34):
It causes high unemploymentamong older workers that want to
be productive and viable andgainfully employed and
contributing.
It means that we don't usetalent that is available within
our society to solve some of thehardest problems.
We almost are invisible and say,like, I wish there was someone
who could help us with this, andthey're sitting right there.
(09:56):
And it puts pressure onindividuals to solve this for
themselves.
It means that individuals, oneby one by one, have to come to
the realization that they don'tfeel like their age, that 60 is
actually the new 40, and thatthey're going to forge new
paths.
Meanwhile, it is widespread andcommon that everyone is forging
(10:17):
new paths.
There is no reason for people tofeel like they need to do it
alone or do it on their own.
It is happening across society.
And even in our language, 60 isthe new 40 implies there's
something wrong with being 60.
And there is nothing wrong withbeing 60 and being active and
(10:38):
vibrant and productive andwanting more at 60, the same way
we imagine was the case when wewere 40.
And just on that, because I findit always kind of amusing, I
have lived through my 40s.
I'm now in my 50s, and I cantell you that I would not want
to go back to my 40s.
(10:59):
That was a crazy sandwichgeneration time of young kids,
and there is a lot that goes onin your 40s.
So if 60 is the new 40, thatdoes not sound like a good
prescription for how life getsbetter as we age.
I would much rather a happy,vibrant, productive 60s rather
than going back and relivingeras in our past.
SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Thank you, Lisa.
And I love that call out becausewe think of what we say to the
teens in our life, the20-year-olds, that we wouldn't
want to go back and live throughthat phase again.
I just think it's such a healthyanecdote to embrace the 50s and
the lessons learned and theopportunities that are ahead of
us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
When you know who you are, you understand how the
labor market is shifting, youknow the work learning and life
roles that you want to play andthat you're evolving into, you
can make the kinds of choicesthat set you up for the kind of
life that you want.
And that's not prescriptivewhere it's going to be the same
(11:58):
for every single person.
It often, almost always,includes continuing a vibrant,
productive, purposeful work.
It is terribly disruptive forindividuals, for sense of
identity, for purpose, forcommunities, for social
cohesion, for social isolationto push people out of workplaces
(12:22):
decades before they need to betaking care of their own
personal affairs.
The economic impact of notgetting this right is enormous.
And the individual impact offeeling overlooked, invisible,
or like you've lost your purposeis also disastrous.
So it is urgent for us to solvethis because it is impacting our
(12:45):
society and it is impacting usas individuals.
SPEAKER_03 (12:49):
Thank you.
Related to that, in your work,you dismantle common stereotypes
about workers of a certain age,being the office curmudgeon,
being resistant to change.
Can you tell us what theresearch says and what you're
actually observing?
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
The stereotypes that exist within organizations and
how older workers are portrayed,a lot of that comes from how
older workers are treated.
So the research shows that thedecline in productivity that
happens among older workers isentirely dependent on the
perception of their manager.
(13:27):
So it's actually not a realproductivity decline.
Older workers are actually moreproductive than younger workers,
but the perception of theirproductivity entirely hinges on
whether their manager believesthat older workers are less
productive than younger workers.
So it's a bias that existswithin management that then ends
(13:47):
up perpetuating itself as astereotype across the workforce.
As I said, the research showsfor all kinds of reasons, older
workers are actually moreproductive than younger workers,
despite the fact that they havethis reputation.
And then we get into, you know,you use the word curmudgeon and
kind of the personality traits.
Our research shows thatmeaningful, future-focused
(14:10):
career conversations anddevelopment conversations slow
down or stop in Canada and theUS is about the same at around
age 49.
So by the time someone is 59,nobody has shown any interest in
their future, their growth,their skills, or their
(14:31):
development for 10 years.
If we had a 39-year-old employeethat nobody had paid any
attention to since they were 29,they would also be a little
grumpy and disengaged and notexcited and on the leading edge
of the latest and greatestthat's coming out with the
organization.
(14:52):
So a lot of this comes backagain, not to characteristics
that are based on how many daysyou've lived on the planet.
After you've lived on the planeta certain number of days, you
become a curmudgeon.
That's not the way that thisworks.
What actually happens is theinterest that others show in
you, their perceptions of youand the bias that they have in
(15:15):
what they think you're capableof actually leads you to fulfill
on what they're putting outthere.
If they're going to disengageand treat you like you don't
have an exciting future withinthe organization, you're going
to respond in kind.
And so the good news about thatis there are really easy ways
that we can create reallyvibrant, productive, successful,
(15:40):
profitable organizations thatoffer choice, opportunity, and
agency over how people continueto navigate in their own career
that's appropriate for each andevery life stage within our
workforce.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Thank you, Lisa.
I really appreciate youunderlining the psychological
impact of someone feelinginvisible in the workplace, of
not having their talents tappedinto.
It relates to the leadershiptraining and discussions we
often have and how we note thatpeople need attention, they need
involvement the way plants needsunshine to thrive.
(16:18):
With that, you note thatsomeone's age is an unreliable
measure of where they're at intheir career.
Can you tell us more about that?
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Yeah.
So again, you know, the numberof days that someone has been on
the planet is a poor indicatorof almost anything.
There is a growing uh populationof people in their 20s and 30s
that are exhibiting chronichealth conditions and that are
needing time and space and careand benefits to address
(16:51):
health-related issues.
And there is a growing number ofvery healthy, productive,
vibrant, successful 60, 70, andeven 80-year-olds as we grow
into our own longevity.
So the assumptions that we havethat someone at a certain age is
going to be appropriate forcertain work or a certain job is
(17:13):
really an outdated way ofthinking about our workforce.
And certainly now that we havethese longer work years and
people navigate throughdifferent stages of their career
and move from learning to workto learning again to work again
to taking a break to coming backto the workforce.
We have these fluid careerpatterns that get treated as if
(17:36):
they're the exception.
But actually, if you were tolook overall at the patterns of
how people are navigating workin life are actually the norm,
it becomes important for us torecognize what organizations
need in terms of the workforcestructures that will serve their
organizations best?
And what do individuals need inorder to be able to navigate
(17:58):
their own careers in ways thathonor what they're looking for
and what they need from work.
That's not just financial, butall of the aspects of benefits
and uh positive implicationswith being a part of
communities, achieving goalstogether, and restructuring how
we think about things so thatwe're designing
intergenerational workforces andintergenerational programming
(18:22):
that addresses the businessneeds as opposed to continuing
down the path that we currentlyare on, which segments the ages
within our workplaces.
So work is actually one of theonly places in society that
people of all ages come togetherto pursue common goals with
(18:42):
people they have not necessarilyselected to do that with.
When we look at social cohesionand what's happening in our
society, work is the place thatpeople mix with people from all
different backgrounds andstripes and views and all kinds
of diversity of thought as wellas diversity of identity.
(19:03):
We have structured ourselves outof that in the rest of society.
We have seniors housing andstudent housing.
You know, the local communitycenter has swim for young
families and for people under 18and for people over 65.
We keep ourselves in separatespaces everywhere else except
for work.
(19:24):
And so there is a role and areal opportunity for workplaces
to be that intergenerational huband engine that keeps us moving
forward as a cohesive societythat I think is a missed
opportunity when we put so muchemphasis on well, what age and
stage is someone at when we'relooking at what opportunity we
(19:47):
want to give them.
SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
Thank you.
I appreciate you highlightingthe benefits of supporting that
cohesion and also dismantlingsome of the more damaging
stereotypes.
If the youth really wanted to beradical, they Could not dump on
the generation behind them.
You've also called out a falsenarrative that older people need
to leave the workforce in orderto create room for the younger
(20:10):
generation.
SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Yeah, it is widespread in society today that
we like to have sides, that welike to set up this side is
against that side.
And so often the dialogue is inmainstream media and stories.
There's always a bit of an angleon where are older workers
hurting the careers of youngerworkers.
(20:32):
And I think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge and
recognize that ageism and aweird relationship that Western
society has with age at allages.
So younger people in workplacesexperience ageism, and older
people in workplaces experienceageism.
(20:53):
And it's actually quiteinteresting to notice that
there's no common bond over thecommon experience, that each
group believes that theyuniquely are experiencing it and
inflict it on the other withoutnecessarily recognizing that
it's actually the same thing.
The narrative that older workersneed to leave the workforce in
(21:14):
order for there to be space foryounger workers in a time when
we have high youth unemploymentfeels like a super logical
argument to make.
But it is an entirely misreadand misunderstanding of how the
labor market actually works.
It basically leans into theassumption that the labor market
(21:38):
is like a pizza and there's onlyso many slices.
So if an older worker is takinga slice, that means that there
isn't a slice for a youngerworker to take.
It means that there is at anypoint in time a fixed number of
jobs that we're allowed to havewithin our economy.
It's simply not true.
We can have unlimited jobs.
(21:59):
That's actually whyentrepreneurship of all ages is
such an important feature of howCanada, in particular, in our
economy, continues to grow,because we need new ventures and
employment and productivity tocome from new jobs being
created.
What the OECD research shows,what all kinds of economic
(22:21):
research shows, is that actuallywhen older workers remain
engaged in the workplace, youthunemployment drops.
The effect is actually theopposite of what the narrative
commonly is.
And that's because when olderworkers are gainfully employed
and employed using the skillsthat they have amassed over the
(22:42):
decades of work that they havedone, their work is complex
enough that it will pull youngerworkers in to work with them as
they do their work.
So proper engagement andemployment, not sidelining older
workers and keeping them engagedat the level of expertise that
(23:02):
they have amassed actually helpsreduce youth unemployment, even
in this AI era.
And that's a, of course, a wholenew layer to this discussion
that Challenge Factory is veryactive and engaged in.
But if we're serious aboutsolving the issue of youth
employment, we need to belooking at how successful our
(23:25):
older workers actually are ingenerating that productivity and
those jobs and those newinnovations in order to pull
youth into the market with them.
SPEAKER_03 (23:34):
Thank you.
You know that the value of olderworkers goes well beyond our
ability to transfer knowledge.
What career opportunities arebeing shut down or potentially
overlooked even by theindividual themselves
unnecessarily?
SPEAKER_02 (23:50):
This is true at all ages and stages.
We hear 25-year-olds,36-year-olds, 47-year-olds,
62-year-olds.
The common kind of belief abouttheir career and where they're
at is that they are too late tomake a change.
In your 20s, I chose this path.
I either went to highereducation or I didn't.
(24:11):
And if I did, I chose this majorand now I can't change to move
into something else.
It's too late.
I've got to continue.
That continues all the waythrough.
In my 30s, I've had a decadeinto this career.
It would be way too disruptivefor me to make a change.
And so we kind of just hang outin the career paths and patterns
(24:32):
or belief of what's available tous with this perception or this
fallacy that it's too late tomake a change.
And the reality is work ischanging all the time.
The skills that you use to dothe exact same job now is
totally different than theskills that you use to do that
exact same job 10 years ago.
(24:53):
So you are changing.
You are having to adapt andchange all the time.
The average longevity withcompanies, I believe, is now
down to less than two years,especially among the younger
workforce.
Two years is not decades andlifetime of commitment.
And so everybody has theopportunity to think about what
(25:17):
they want from their work, learnsomething new, and transition
into that new state of wherethey want to be that matches
their current life stage.
You don't need to stick with thechoices you made in your 30s
because you chose to be anaccountant and now you're in
your 60s and you can only be anaccountant.
(25:38):
That is really a failing in oursystems of career literacy and a
lack of understanding of our ownhuman potential, but also what
the labor market needs of us.
SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
Thank you.
It's very inspiring to think ofthe opportunities that are ahead
of us and to think about it in amuch more expansive way rather
than feeling like our optionsare getting narrower and
narrower as we progress throughour career.
SPEAKER_02 (26:04):
It happens in organizations too, right?
So the labor market is a truemarket.
There's labor supply, which arethe people that are working, and
there's labor demand, which arethe people that hire people.
And so while it's true that welimit our own possibilities,
employers also limit thepotential of their own internal
workforce.
And we know going into 2026 thatinternal mobility is a hot topic
(26:29):
and one that is at the top ofstrategic mandates and thinking
that's going on among leadershipteams.
And if we don't actuallyunderstand the full spectrum of
capability that exists inside ofour own organization, but we
want to prioritize internalmobility, it's like playing a
(26:50):
game missing half of the pieces.
It's not really going to get usto the goal and no one's going
to win.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Thank you.
I really appreciate your modelof the broken escalator.
And it's not your typicalcorporate ladder.
You join the workforce, you geton the escalator, time's moving,
and you're moving along thistimeline up the escalator.
And maybe you move up a step,maybe someone moves up two steps
if there's opportunitiesavailable within the
organization.
But you know that thoseopportunities don't always
(27:18):
exist.
That's where people leave.
The top of the escalator wasdesigned for the 65-year
retirement age.
It flattens.
And people who remain in theworkforce are essentially now on
a treadmill.
I keep stepping back in order toremain engaged.
And at the same time, there'sthese organizational cues that
time is up, clock is ticking,you know, we're waiting for you
(27:41):
to free up space.
People are making the decisionto stay in the workforce longer.
So just welcome your perspectiveon this disconnect, how
organizations can remedy it,organizations that are doing
this well, what are they doingdifferently?
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
Yeah, I love that you did such a great job of
describing the broken talentescalator.
So as they're on that top step,which is flattened and they're
choosing, they don't want tostep off.
Instead, they're going to chooseto take a step back and they're
going to ride a treadmill allday.
It is wildly boring.
And that gets us a little bitinto some of the disengagement
(28:19):
that we then see.
One of the reasons why peoplewill choose to ride a treadmill
is because they know who theyare when they're on that
treadmill.
They have a title that they candescribe or they can introduce
themselves with at a cocktailparty or when they're meeting
new people or when they're intheir community.
They have an identity that'sbeen built around the work that
they do.
(28:39):
If they step off that escalatorand there isn't a legacy career
path for them, there aren'tother roles that they can step
into.
And there are lots of people whosay we should not be tying our
sense of identity to the workthat we do, that as human
beings, we are far more valuablethan that.
I 100% believe that.
And I a hundred percent believethat we tie our identity to the
(29:01):
work that we do.
We introduce ourselves by ourjob title, you know, on a daily
or weekly basis for decades.
We say I am an accountant, I amthe senior vice president of XYZ
department, I work in thisindustry.
If we say that over and over andover again through our entire
life, it becomes a part of whowe are.
And unless there is an answerthat allows me to feel comfort
(29:25):
that I am going to continue tohave an identity, that I am not
going to disappear or fall off acliff, and that there will be a
way for me to have purpose andrespect and meaning in what I'm
going to be doing next.
For most people, taking thatstep off the treadmill at the
top step feels too risky.
(29:45):
And so they stall on that topstep and cause a treadmill
effect on all of the steps allthe way down the escalator.
And that's just because theescalator is too short.
It just doesn't provide themwith options of where they can
be moving and where they can begoing.
You asked what goodorganizations or leading
organizations do in this space.
The first is that they haveroles that come after senior
(30:08):
vice president that aren'tupwardly mobile within the
executive structure, butactually allow people to get
back to the frontline kinds ofwork that they really love
doing.
Or they have other ways thatthey engage older workers that
are appropriate for what theolder workers actually need and
want out of their work now, asopposed to assuming that they're
going to want to continue doingexactly what they've been doing.
(30:31):
And the other thing that they doas well is they recognize that
if they are going to havementorship programs where older
workers are going to be pairedwith younger workers, their
older workers had better bereally good cultural ambassadors
for the type of organizationthat they are in.
(30:52):
That pairing someone who isstuck on a treadmill with a
younger person is a recipe foryoung people to leave your
organization because it'sclearly not a place that you
want to grow old.
And so thinking about how youcan leverage intergenerational
relationships to strengthen yourcompany means that you need to
(31:13):
address the career-relatedissues at every stage of the
talent escalator.
This isn't just about how can wemake things better to deal with
our new graduate or recenthigher retention rates.
If you have an issue withyounger worker retention, our
research shows you almostcertainly have an issue with
(31:34):
older worker engagement.
The workforce is a system.
The talent escalator is asystem.
And when it's broken, you needto look at the steps above the
step that's actually exhibitingthe signs of breaking.
SPEAKER_03 (31:47):
Thank you.
Lisa, if an organization'sfeeling behind, what would you
suggest as their first steps?
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
So I think that data is your friend.
In the future of work, thingsare changing all the time.
And we also don't have all theresources.
We don't have all the money, thepeople, the technology, the
data.
We never have all of the pieces.
And we need to take a scientificapproach.
And the scientific approach sayswe don't know the answer to
these questions, but we havesome hypotheses.
(32:16):
So what do we imagine could behappening within our
organization, our industry, ourregion?
There's so many differentdynamics.
The US-Canada trade situationand tariff situation.
What hypotheses do we have aboutwhat might happen next?
And then what information do weneed in order to start to
(32:37):
structure some experiments totest whether we're right or not?
And let's learn as we go andadapt as we go.
What pilots would we want to runto see how we might do things
differently?
There's data that you cancollect across the entire talent
escalator.
Challenge Factory has ROI toolsand methodologies.
(32:58):
We have all kinds of ways thatorganizations can kind of work
through lists of what would begood information to be able to
have to make better, smarterstrategic decisions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:09):
Thank you.
And I presume also payingattention to the discussions
that leaders are having withemployees across their career as
well, and hopefully helping todismantle assumptions going into
those conversations.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Challenge Factory puts together a lot of resources
so that frontline managers canpick something up today and make
a difference in the careerconversation that they're having
with their frontline staff,because that is where everything
is happening.
And those managers often don'thave full and complete
information based on thestrategy of where you're heading
(33:45):
and what you're intending to donext, and still have to have
positive, future-focusedconversations with their staff.
And so the more that you can besupporting them to do that,
while some of the really big,thorny discussions and
hypotheses are being tested atthe strategic level and at the
organizational level, thestronger the organization will
(34:05):
be.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
With the breadth of work that your organization
undertakes and the strategicguidance it provides, you also
provide career counseling toindividuals.
And based on that, I'm wonderingif I can squeeze in a question
where I ask you for the advicethat you would have for
individuals who may actually beinterested in ramping up in
their career, but they feel likethey are marching in place at
(34:27):
the top of that brokenescalator.
SPEAKER_02 (34:30):
We have a tool that's available online that
gets people to take a step backand do some good career
exploration.
Often when people are looking tomake a change, they don't go to
formal career development orcareer guidance methodologies
and tools.
They ask their uncle, they getadvice from their coworker, they
(34:52):
hear about something thatsomeone else is doing and think
maybe they could do it, or theystart with their resume.
Your resume is actually one ofthe last places you should be
focusing if you want to make acareer change.
And that's because your resumeis a marketing document for a
product, which is you, that youare selling your services to a
(35:15):
particular buyer, which is theemployer.
And if you don't know what youwant to do, or how your skills
from the past relate to that ina meaningful way, or who your
buyer is, no marketing agency inthe world would accept that
brief.
They wouldn't start by writingthe.
They would want to do a lot moreexploration and understanding of
(35:36):
exactly what the product is andwhat its unique value
proposition is, and then who arethey targeting in terms of where
that document is going to go.
So the same is true for anyoneat any age and stage that finds
that they may be interested inexploring what their next step
is.
And that step back requires adeeper exploration and
understanding of what you needfrom your work.
(35:59):
And you're allowed to includethings you want in that
category, where your uniquetalents are, what do you care
about?
What lights you up?
What are you passionate about?
What always piques your interestwhen the conversation comes up?
And then the last component iswhere is the market or what
impact do you want your work tohave?
Impact just means that you dosomething and someone recognizes
(36:22):
it, for example, by paying youfor that.
So those four domains, what doyou need and want?
What are you talented in?
What do you care about?
And where are there market orlabor or impact opportunities
for you to be able to have aninfluence?
Gives you a set of criteria,doesn't give you a job, but it
gives you the list of thingsthat you'd like to have
satisfied.
(36:42):
And that's your sweet spot.
That's the starting point.
And until you know that, youcan't possibly write a resume
that's actually going toresonate or know the full
spectrum of jobs that areactually available to you.
We are aware of only the jobs wehave intersected with in the
past.
And there is a whole lot of workthat needs to be done using the
(37:03):
talents you already have that istotally different than what
you've ever thought of before,but viable and possible and not
that risky for you to move into.
SPEAKER_03 (37:14):
Thank you, Lisa.
Really appreciate that guidanceto don't begin by looking at
what you did in the past.
Begin by looking inwards aboutwhat really lights you up and
what excites you as your firststep.
It's practical and it'sinspiring.
And I presume entrepreneurshipis something that you may also
encourage someone to consider orencourage the market at large to
(37:36):
do a better job of promoting.
SPEAKER_02 (37:38):
Of course.
Entrepreneurship, as we weretalking earlier, is really
important for productivity ofour nation.
Canada needs to do a better jobon it.
We need to have better awarenessthat entrepreneurship is not a
fallback career when you don'tend up in a formal job.
It actually is the engine thatdrives productivity in the
market and in our labor markets.
(37:59):
Entrepreneurship is a vehicle tomeet criteria if you already
know what you want to do.
It is a method or a mechanismfor how you bring your talents
to the world.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
Thank you.
I'm really grateful for yourthoughtful work that is also
practical for those who want tolearn more.
What's the best way to followyour work?
What's the best way to connect?
SPEAKER_02 (38:25):
Yeah, so Challenge Factory has a website.
It's challengefactory.ca.
There's a newsletter sign upthere at the bottom of the page.
It goes out every Wednesday.
So you get little tidbits andtips from us every Wednesday if
you sign up.
Um, I'm also on LinkedIn.
My handle there is author LisaTaylor, and I'm super happy to
(38:46):
connect anytime.
Thank you, Lisa.
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
I'm grateful for your time.
My pleasure.
Thanks for the good questions.
This conversation with LisaTaylor really highlighted how
much careers are shifting aspeople work longer and rethink
what later career success canlook like.
I so appreciate how shechallenges the stereotypes that
can hold experienced talent backand shows how organizations can
(39:12):
rethink roles, conversations,and leadership to better support
people at every stage.
I'm Pauline James, and this isthe next chapter.
I'd love to hear if Lisa'sinsights have prompted you to
think differently about your ownpath or your organization's
approach to talent.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn or through our Anchor
(39:32):
HR community.
Thanks for listening and join menext time as we continue
exploring what the next chapterof work and life can look like.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
Follow us on social media.
and visit hrgazette.com.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talented zets, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
hrgazette.com.
SPEAKER_03 (00:25):
Hello, I'm Pauline James, CEO of Anchor HR and
associate editor of the HRGazette.
For too long, careers have beendescribed as if they peak and
then they wind down, but lifedoesn't follow a script, and
neither should our careers.
The next chapter explores thechoices, opportunities, and
inspirations that emerge as wecontinue to shape our careers
(00:47):
and lives.
Whether that means continuing togrow and build our careers,
mentoring, reinventing, givingback, or choosing new
priorities.
It's about defining success onour own terms.
We're opening this series byspeaking with Lisa Taylor.
Lisa Taylor is CEO of ChallengeFactory, an internationally
(01:07):
trusted advisory and researchfirm focused on the future of
work.
She supports organizations andpolicymakers in understanding
labor market dynamics and usingcareer development to drive
productivity and workforceadvantage.
A sought-after speaker,columnist, and author, Lisa has
written extensively on careerdevelopment and the future of
(01:29):
work, including the talentrevolution, longevity, and the
future of work.
Her work has been widelyrecognized, including being
named one of Canada's top 100women by the Urban Land
Institute and an outstandingcareer leader by Career
Professionals of Canada.
We are lucky to have herinsights on today's podcast.
(01:49):
Lisa, your body of work and therecognition you've received
speaks volumes to both yourexpertise and the passion that
you bring to this field.
Can you share how you came tohave such a deep interest in the
intersection of the future ofwork and career planning?
SPEAKER_02 (02:06):
It comes out of my personal experience in a large
corporate setting.
I ran a large team.
I had 135 staff.
I was in my early 30s, and theaverage age on my team was 48,
and they had been with thecompany 18 years.
(02:26):
And as a younger manager on asenior leadership team, I had
access to all kinds of tools andprograms and approaches and
conversations that I wassupposed to be having.
And what I found with myamazing, talented, committed,
passionate team who liked thework that they were doing and
(02:46):
had great customer engagementand employee engagement scores,
everything on all of thediagnostics would say this was a
high-performing team that wasdoing really well.
When I would start to get intoconversations with them about
their own careers and their ownfuture, everything would grind
to a halt.
We would end up in these weirdconversations where they would
(03:09):
say, Well, I only have to waitanother eight years and then my
mortgage would be paid off, orLisa, I only have to wait six
years and then my youngest willbe finished in higher education.
And then I can start to imaginewhat I wanted to do next.
So again, average age 48, ageand stage, they were all
(03:32):
deciding that they just neededto get through a relatively long
period of time, you know, sixyears, eight years, 12 years, 15
years.
They all knew how long theyneeded to get through, which
fascinated me as well.
And when I asked them, when Isaid to them, okay, so let's
pretend that today is the day.
Your mortgage is paid off, yourkids have graduated from
(03:55):
wherever they are in highereducation.
And now you actually have thespace and ability to determine
what you want to do next.
How are you going to decide?
And no one knew.
And so that early indicationamong this amazing team who were
smart and creative and able tosolve really challenging
problems in the world, butreally didn't have the tools and
(04:18):
methodology to understand how tosolve their own future career
and life planning got methinking about if this is
universally true and if we havea growing number of people that
are going to be living andworking longer, what is the
impact on productivity, onworkplace wellness for my team,
(04:42):
for the company, for ourprovince, for the country?
So it was from that originalteam that I really started to
dig into the formal field ofcareer development and
understanding the dynamics ofwhat was going to be impacting
labor markets and the future ofwork, and became so convinced
(05:02):
that this disruption was goingto be real.
I decided that I was going toleave my corporate career and
launch one of the firstbusinesses focused in this area
in North America.
Challenge Factory launched in2009, just with me.
It was incorporated with a teamby 2012.
And now in 2025, we arerecognized for our work in this
(05:26):
space all around the world.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
The HR Chat Podcast is one of the world's most
popular shows, offering insightsand tips from HR pros, business
leaders, industry influencers,and tech experts.
World of work topics coveredinclude HR tech, AI, leadership,
talent, recruitment, employeeengagement, wellness, DEI, and
company culture.
(05:48):
Check out the latest HR chatepisodes on your podcast
platform of choice and read thelatest articles at
HRgazette.com.
SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
In your book, The Talent Revolution, you
eloquently lay out that thefuture of work and career models
are being significantlydisrupted based on demographics
of the workforce and longevity.
Can you walk us through what isdriving this disruption and also
what makes it urgent?
SPEAKER_02 (06:17):
So there's just a couple of facts that form the
foundation for us to be able tohave any kind of conversation on
what's really happening.
The first starting point that isreally important for everyone to
be grounded in is when thisconcept of retirement at age 65
came to be.
It was the 1930s when the USenacted the Social Security Act
(06:42):
and Canada followed around thesame time, which put a marker
both in reality and also in ourmindset of when we should be
considering people retired or ofretirement age at 65.
That's when you started tobecome eligible for Social
Security benefits.
(07:02):
And life expectancy in the yearthat was enacted was 62.
So retirement age is set atthree years past life
expectancy.
And that's because it wasoriginally, as a concept,
brought in in order to be akindness to prevent people who
didn't have any other means tosupport themselves from working
(07:25):
themselves to death.
It was a recognition that atsome point in time you do
actually need to retire.
The dictionary definition ofthat word is to withdraw or to
conclude.
You retire to bed in theevening.
You don't retire to a party orto a vacation.
So it needed the space forpeople to be able to withdraw
(07:47):
and conclude their commercialactivities.
And because of that, they neededsome kind of support in some
cases.
So what's happened since thattime is we have moved from
having a 62-year life expectancyto an 82-year life expectancy.
In one generation, we've gained20 additional years of life.
(08:08):
But our mental model is stillfrozen in time as if it is still
the 1930s when we think aboutour working life expectancy.
And our retirement expectationsare no longer pegged at three
years past life expectancy.
And maybe that was never theright exact place to put it.
(08:29):
But 20 years or 23 years beforethe end of life is probably also
not ideal.
And that's why it's urgentbecause as more and more
individuals are moving throughthis cycle, and this first
generation is approachingretirement with these longer
lifespans.
(08:50):
By 2030, the first baby boomerswill have all turned 65.
As we move through this veryfirst cycle of experiencing both
retirement and longer lifespans,what is not being recognized is
that midlife has not just becomea whole lot longer.
But in around our 50s, weactually shift into a new
(09:12):
segment of life.
That shift is just assignificant as the shift that we
make when we move from childhoodto adolescence, adolescence to
adulthood.
But there isn't this recognitionthat there's a new segment of
life, just as millions andmillions of people are
experiencing this forthemselves.
And so that causes enormousdysfunction.
(09:34):
It causes high unemploymentamong older workers that want to
be productive and viable andgainfully employed and
contributing.
It means that we don't usetalent that is available within
our society to solve some of thehardest problems.
We almost are invisible and say,like, I wish there was someone
who could help us with this, andthey're sitting right there.
(09:56):
And it puts pressure onindividuals to solve this for
themselves.
It means that individuals, oneby one by one, have to come to
the realization that they don'tfeel like their age, that 60 is
actually the new 40, and thatthey're going to forge new
paths.
Meanwhile, it is widespread andcommon that everyone is forging
(10:17):
new paths.
There is no reason for people tofeel like they need to do it
alone or do it on their own.
It is happening across society.
And even in our language, 60 isthe new 40 implies there's
something wrong with being 60.
And there is nothing wrong withbeing 60 and being active and
(10:38):
vibrant and productive andwanting more at 60, the same way
we imagine was the case when wewere 40.
And just on that, because I findit always kind of amusing, I
have lived through my 40s.
I'm now in my 50s, and I cantell you that I would not want
to go back to my 40s.
(10:59):
That was a crazy sandwichgeneration time of young kids,
and there is a lot that goes onin your 40s.
So if 60 is the new 40, thatdoes not sound like a good
prescription for how life getsbetter as we age.
I would much rather a happy,vibrant, productive 60s rather
than going back and relivingeras in our past.
SPEAKER_03 (11:20):
Thank you, Lisa.
And I love that call out becausewe think of what we say to the
teens in our life, the20-year-olds, that we wouldn't
want to go back and live throughthat phase again.
I just think it's such a healthyanecdote to embrace the 50s and
the lessons learned and theopportunities that are ahead of
us.
SPEAKER_02 (11:38):
When you know who you are, you understand how the
labor market is shifting, youknow the work learning and life
roles that you want to play andthat you're evolving into, you
can make the kinds of choicesthat set you up for the kind of
life that you want.
And that's not prescriptivewhere it's going to be the same
(11:58):
for every single person.
It often, almost always,includes continuing a vibrant,
productive, purposeful work.
It is terribly disruptive forindividuals, for sense of
identity, for purpose, forcommunities, for social
cohesion, for social isolationto push people out of workplaces
(12:22):
decades before they need to betaking care of their own
personal affairs.
The economic impact of notgetting this right is enormous.
And the individual impact offeeling overlooked, invisible,
or like you've lost your purposeis also disastrous.
So it is urgent for us to solvethis because it is impacting our
(12:45):
society and it is impacting usas individuals.
SPEAKER_03 (12:49):
Thank you.
Related to that, in your work,you dismantle common stereotypes
about workers of a certain age,being the office curmudgeon,
being resistant to change.
Can you tell us what theresearch says and what you're
actually observing?
SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
The stereotypes that exist within organizations and
how older workers are portrayed,a lot of that comes from how
older workers are treated.
So the research shows that thedecline in productivity that
happens among older workers isentirely dependent on the
perception of their manager.
(13:27):
So it's actually not a realproductivity decline.
Older workers are actually moreproductive than younger workers,
but the perception of theirproductivity entirely hinges on
whether their manager believesthat older workers are less
productive than younger workers.
So it's a bias that existswithin management that then ends
(13:47):
up perpetuating itself as astereotype across the workforce.
As I said, the research showsfor all kinds of reasons, older
workers are actually moreproductive than younger workers,
despite the fact that they havethis reputation.
And then we get into, you know,you use the word curmudgeon and
kind of the personality traits.
Our research shows thatmeaningful, future-focused
(14:10):
career conversations anddevelopment conversations slow
down or stop in Canada and theUS is about the same at around
age 49.
So by the time someone is 59,nobody has shown any interest in
their future, their growth,their skills, or their
(14:31):
development for 10 years.
If we had a 39-year-old employeethat nobody had paid any
attention to since they were 29,they would also be a little
grumpy and disengaged and notexcited and on the leading edge
of the latest and greatestthat's coming out with the
organization.
(14:52):
So a lot of this comes backagain, not to characteristics
that are based on how many daysyou've lived on the planet.
After you've lived on the planeta certain number of days, you
become a curmudgeon.
That's not the way that thisworks.
What actually happens is theinterest that others show in
you, their perceptions of youand the bias that they have in
(15:15):
what they think you're capableof actually leads you to fulfill
on what they're putting outthere.
If they're going to disengageand treat you like you don't
have an exciting future withinthe organization, you're going
to respond in kind.
And so the good news about thatis there are really easy ways
that we can create reallyvibrant, productive, successful,
(15:40):
profitable organizations thatoffer choice, opportunity, and
agency over how people continueto navigate in their own career
that's appropriate for each andevery life stage within our
workforce.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Thank you, Lisa.
I really appreciate youunderlining the psychological
impact of someone feelinginvisible in the workplace, of
not having their talents tappedinto.
It relates to the leadershiptraining and discussions we
often have and how we note thatpeople need attention, they need
involvement the way plants needsunshine to thrive.
(16:18):
With that, you note thatsomeone's age is an unreliable
measure of where they're at intheir career.
Can you tell us more about that?
SPEAKER_02 (16:29):
Yeah.
So again, you know, the numberof days that someone has been on
the planet is a poor indicatorof almost anything.
There is a growing uh populationof people in their 20s and 30s
that are exhibiting chronichealth conditions and that are
needing time and space and careand benefits to address
(16:51):
health-related issues.
And there is a growing number ofvery healthy, productive,
vibrant, successful 60, 70, andeven 80-year-olds as we grow
into our own longevity.
So the assumptions that we havethat someone at a certain age is
going to be appropriate forcertain work or a certain job is
(17:13):
really an outdated way ofthinking about our workforce.
And certainly now that we havethese longer work years and
people navigate throughdifferent stages of their career
and move from learning to workto learning again to work again
to taking a break to coming backto the workforce.
We have these fluid careerpatterns that get treated as if
(17:36):
they're the exception.
But actually, if you were tolook overall at the patterns of
how people are navigating workin life are actually the norm,
it becomes important for us torecognize what organizations
need in terms of the workforcestructures that will serve their
organizations best?
And what do individuals need inorder to be able to navigate
(17:58):
their own careers in ways thathonor what they're looking for
and what they need from work.
That's not just financial, butall of the aspects of benefits
and uh positive implicationswith being a part of
communities, achieving goalstogether, and restructuring how
we think about things so thatwe're designing
intergenerational workforces andintergenerational programming
(18:22):
that addresses the businessneeds as opposed to continuing
down the path that we currentlyare on, which segments the ages
within our workplaces.
So work is actually one of theonly places in society that
people of all ages come togetherto pursue common goals with
(18:42):
people they have not necessarilyselected to do that with.
When we look at social cohesionand what's happening in our
society, work is the place thatpeople mix with people from all
different backgrounds andstripes and views and all kinds
of diversity of thought as wellas diversity of identity.
(19:03):
We have structured ourselves outof that in the rest of society.
We have seniors housing andstudent housing.
You know, the local communitycenter has swim for young
families and for people under 18and for people over 65.
We keep ourselves in separatespaces everywhere else except
for work.
(19:24):
And so there is a role and areal opportunity for workplaces
to be that intergenerational huband engine that keeps us moving
forward as a cohesive societythat I think is a missed
opportunity when we put so muchemphasis on well, what age and
stage is someone at when we'relooking at what opportunity we
(19:47):
want to give them.
SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
Thank you.
I appreciate you highlightingthe benefits of supporting that
cohesion and also dismantlingsome of the more damaging
stereotypes.
If the youth really wanted to beradical, they Could not dump on
the generation behind them.
You've also called out a falsenarrative that older people need
to leave the workforce in orderto create room for the younger
(20:10):
generation.
SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Yeah, it is widespread in society today that
we like to have sides, that welike to set up this side is
against that side.
And so often the dialogue is inmainstream media and stories.
There's always a bit of an angleon where are older workers
hurting the careers of youngerworkers.
(20:32):
And I think it's reallyimportant to acknowledge and
recognize that ageism and aweird relationship that Western
society has with age at allages.
So younger people in workplacesexperience ageism, and older
people in workplaces experienceageism.
(20:53):
And it's actually quiteinteresting to notice that
there's no common bond over thecommon experience, that each
group believes that theyuniquely are experiencing it and
inflict it on the other withoutnecessarily recognizing that
it's actually the same thing.
The narrative that older workersneed to leave the workforce in
(21:14):
order for there to be space foryounger workers in a time when
we have high youth unemploymentfeels like a super logical
argument to make.
But it is an entirely misreadand misunderstanding of how the
labor market actually works.
It basically leans into theassumption that the labor market
(21:38):
is like a pizza and there's onlyso many slices.
So if an older worker is takinga slice, that means that there
isn't a slice for a youngerworker to take.
It means that there is at anypoint in time a fixed number of
jobs that we're allowed to havewithin our economy.
It's simply not true.
We can have unlimited jobs.
(21:59):
That's actually whyentrepreneurship of all ages is
such an important feature of howCanada, in particular, in our
economy, continues to grow,because we need new ventures and
employment and productivity tocome from new jobs being
created.
What the OECD research shows,what all kinds of economic
(22:21):
research shows, is that actuallywhen older workers remain
engaged in the workplace, youthunemployment drops.
The effect is actually theopposite of what the narrative
commonly is.
And that's because when olderworkers are gainfully employed
and employed using the skillsthat they have amassed over the
(22:42):
decades of work that they havedone, their work is complex
enough that it will pull youngerworkers in to work with them as
they do their work.
So proper engagement andemployment, not sidelining older
workers and keeping them engagedat the level of expertise that
(23:02):
they have amassed actually helpsreduce youth unemployment, even
in this AI era.
And that's a, of course, a wholenew layer to this discussion
that Challenge Factory is veryactive and engaged in.
But if we're serious aboutsolving the issue of youth
employment, we need to belooking at how successful our
(23:25):
older workers actually are ingenerating that productivity and
those jobs and those newinnovations in order to pull
youth into the market with them.
SPEAKER_03 (23:34):
Thank you.
You know that the value of olderworkers goes well beyond our
ability to transfer knowledge.
What career opportunities arebeing shut down or potentially
overlooked even by theindividual themselves
unnecessarily?
SPEAKER_02 (23:50):
This is true at all ages and stages.
We hear 25-year-olds,36-year-olds, 47-year-olds,
62-year-olds.
The common kind of belief abouttheir career and where they're
at is that they are too late tomake a change.
In your 20s, I chose this path.
I either went to highereducation or I didn't.
(24:11):
And if I did, I chose this majorand now I can't change to move
into something else.
It's too late.
I've got to continue.
That continues all the waythrough.
In my 30s, I've had a decadeinto this career.
It would be way too disruptivefor me to make a change.
And so we kind of just hang outin the career paths and patterns
(24:32):
or belief of what's available tous with this perception or this
fallacy that it's too late tomake a change.
And the reality is work ischanging all the time.
The skills that you use to dothe exact same job now is
totally different than theskills that you use to do that
exact same job 10 years ago.
(24:53):
So you are changing.
You are having to adapt andchange all the time.
The average longevity withcompanies, I believe, is now
down to less than two years,especially among the younger
workforce.
Two years is not decades andlifetime of commitment.
And so everybody has theopportunity to think about what
(25:17):
they want from their work, learnsomething new, and transition
into that new state of wherethey want to be that matches
their current life stage.
You don't need to stick with thechoices you made in your 30s
because you chose to be anaccountant and now you're in
your 60s and you can only be anaccountant.
(25:38):
That is really a failing in oursystems of career literacy and a
lack of understanding of our ownhuman potential, but also what
the labor market needs of us.
SPEAKER_03 (25:49):
Thank you.
It's very inspiring to think ofthe opportunities that are ahead
of us and to think about it in amuch more expansive way rather
than feeling like our optionsare getting narrower and
narrower as we progress throughour career.
SPEAKER_02 (26:04):
It happens in organizations too, right?
So the labor market is a truemarket.
There's labor supply, which arethe people that are working, and
there's labor demand, which arethe people that hire people.
And so while it's true that welimit our own possibilities,
employers also limit thepotential of their own internal
workforce.
And we know going into 2026 thatinternal mobility is a hot topic
(26:29):
and one that is at the top ofstrategic mandates and thinking
that's going on among leadershipteams.
And if we don't actuallyunderstand the full spectrum of
capability that exists inside ofour own organization, but we
want to prioritize internalmobility, it's like playing a
(26:50):
game missing half of the pieces.
It's not really going to get usto the goal and no one's going
to win.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
Thank you.
I really appreciate your modelof the broken escalator.
And it's not your typicalcorporate ladder.
You join the workforce, you geton the escalator, time's moving,
and you're moving along thistimeline up the escalator.
And maybe you move up a step,maybe someone moves up two steps
if there's opportunitiesavailable within the
organization.
But you know that thoseopportunities don't always
(27:18):
exist.
That's where people leave.
The top of the escalator wasdesigned for the 65-year
retirement age.
It flattens.
And people who remain in theworkforce are essentially now on
a treadmill.
I keep stepping back in order toremain engaged.
And at the same time, there'sthese organizational cues that
time is up, clock is ticking,you know, we're waiting for you
(27:41):
to free up space.
People are making the decisionto stay in the workforce longer.
So just welcome your perspectiveon this disconnect, how
organizations can remedy it,organizations that are doing
this well, what are they doingdifferently?
SPEAKER_02 (27:59):
Yeah, I love that you did such a great job of
describing the broken talentescalator.
So as they're on that top step,which is flattened and they're
choosing, they don't want tostep off.
Instead, they're going to chooseto take a step back and they're
going to ride a treadmill allday.
It is wildly boring.
And that gets us a little bitinto some of the disengagement
(28:19):
that we then see.
One of the reasons why peoplewill choose to ride a treadmill
is because they know who theyare when they're on that
treadmill.
They have a title that they candescribe or they can introduce
themselves with at a cocktailparty or when they're meeting
new people or when they're intheir community.
They have an identity that'sbeen built around the work that
they do.
(28:39):
If they step off that escalatorand there isn't a legacy career
path for them, there aren'tother roles that they can step
into.
And there are lots of people whosay we should not be tying our
sense of identity to the workthat we do, that as human
beings, we are far more valuablethan that.
I 100% believe that.
And I a hundred percent believethat we tie our identity to the
(29:01):
work that we do.
We introduce ourselves by ourjob title, you know, on a daily
or weekly basis for decades.
We say I am an accountant, I amthe senior vice president of XYZ
department, I work in thisindustry.
If we say that over and over andover again through our entire
life, it becomes a part of whowe are.
And unless there is an answerthat allows me to feel comfort
(29:25):
that I am going to continue tohave an identity, that I am not
going to disappear or fall off acliff, and that there will be a
way for me to have purpose andrespect and meaning in what I'm
going to be doing next.
For most people, taking thatstep off the treadmill at the
top step feels too risky.
(29:45):
And so they stall on that topstep and cause a treadmill
effect on all of the steps allthe way down the escalator.
And that's just because theescalator is too short.
It just doesn't provide themwith options of where they can
be moving and where they can begoing.
You asked what goodorganizations or leading
organizations do in this space.
The first is that they haveroles that come after senior
(30:08):
vice president that aren'tupwardly mobile within the
executive structure, butactually allow people to get
back to the frontline kinds ofwork that they really love
doing.
Or they have other ways thatthey engage older workers that
are appropriate for what theolder workers actually need and
want out of their work now, asopposed to assuming that they're
going to want to continue doingexactly what they've been doing.
(30:31):
And the other thing that they doas well is they recognize that
if they are going to havementorship programs where older
workers are going to be pairedwith younger workers, their
older workers had better bereally good cultural ambassadors
for the type of organizationthat they are in.
(30:52):
That pairing someone who isstuck on a treadmill with a
younger person is a recipe foryoung people to leave your
organization because it'sclearly not a place that you
want to grow old.
And so thinking about how youcan leverage intergenerational
relationships to strengthen yourcompany means that you need to
(31:13):
address the career-relatedissues at every stage of the
talent escalator.
This isn't just about how can wemake things better to deal with
our new graduate or recenthigher retention rates.
If you have an issue withyounger worker retention, our
research shows you almostcertainly have an issue with
(31:34):
older worker engagement.
The workforce is a system.
The talent escalator is asystem.
And when it's broken, you needto look at the steps above the
step that's actually exhibitingthe signs of breaking.
SPEAKER_03 (31:47):
Thank you.
Lisa, if an organization'sfeeling behind, what would you
suggest as their first steps?
SPEAKER_02 (31:55):
So I think that data is your friend.
In the future of work, thingsare changing all the time.
And we also don't have all theresources.
We don't have all the money, thepeople, the technology, the
data.
We never have all of the pieces.
And we need to take a scientificapproach.
And the scientific approach sayswe don't know the answer to
these questions, but we havesome hypotheses.
(32:16):
So what do we imagine could behappening within our
organization, our industry, ourregion?
There's so many differentdynamics.
The US-Canada trade situationand tariff situation.
What hypotheses do we have aboutwhat might happen next?
And then what information do weneed in order to start to
(32:37):
structure some experiments totest whether we're right or not?
And let's learn as we go andadapt as we go.
What pilots would we want to runto see how we might do things
differently?
There's data that you cancollect across the entire talent
escalator.
Challenge Factory has ROI toolsand methodologies.
(32:58):
We have all kinds of ways thatorganizations can kind of work
through lists of what would begood information to be able to
have to make better, smarterstrategic decisions.
SPEAKER_03 (33:09):
Thank you.
And I presume also payingattention to the discussions
that leaders are having withemployees across their career as
well, and hopefully helping todismantle assumptions going into
those conversations.
SPEAKER_02 (33:24):
Challenge Factory puts together a lot of resources
so that frontline managers canpick something up today and make
a difference in the careerconversation that they're having
with their frontline staff,because that is where everything
is happening.
And those managers often don'thave full and complete
information based on thestrategy of where you're heading
(33:45):
and what you're intending to donext, and still have to have
positive, future-focusedconversations with their staff.
And so the more that you can besupporting them to do that,
while some of the really big,thorny discussions and
hypotheses are being tested atthe strategic level and at the
organizational level, thestronger the organization will
(34:05):
be.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
With the breadth of work that your organization
undertakes and the strategicguidance it provides, you also
provide career counseling toindividuals.
And based on that, I'm wonderingif I can squeeze in a question
where I ask you for the advicethat you would have for
individuals who may actually beinterested in ramping up in
their career, but they feel likethey are marching in place at
(34:27):
the top of that brokenescalator.
SPEAKER_02 (34:30):
We have a tool that's available online that
gets people to take a step backand do some good career
exploration.
Often when people are looking tomake a change, they don't go to
formal career development orcareer guidance methodologies
and tools.
They ask their uncle, they getadvice from their coworker, they
(34:52):
hear about something thatsomeone else is doing and think
maybe they could do it, or theystart with their resume.
Your resume is actually one ofthe last places you should be
focusing if you want to make acareer change.
And that's because your resumeis a marketing document for a
product, which is you, that youare selling your services to a
(35:15):
particular buyer, which is theemployer.
And if you don't know what youwant to do, or how your skills
from the past relate to that ina meaningful way, or who your
buyer is, no marketing agency inthe world would accept that
brief.
They wouldn't start by writingthe.
They would want to do a lot moreexploration and understanding of
(35:36):
exactly what the product is andwhat its unique value
proposition is, and then who arethey targeting in terms of where
that document is going to go.
So the same is true for anyoneat any age and stage that finds
that they may be interested inexploring what their next step
is.
And that step back requires adeeper exploration and
understanding of what you needfrom your work.
(35:59):
And you're allowed to includethings you want in that
category, where your uniquetalents are, what do you care
about?
What lights you up?
What are you passionate about?
What always piques your interestwhen the conversation comes up?
And then the last component iswhere is the market or what
impact do you want your work tohave?
Impact just means that you dosomething and someone recognizes
(36:22):
it, for example, by paying youfor that.
So those four domains, what doyou need and want?
What are you talented in?
What do you care about?
And where are there market orlabor or impact opportunities
for you to be able to have aninfluence?
Gives you a set of criteria,doesn't give you a job, but it
gives you the list of thingsthat you'd like to have
satisfied.
(36:42):
And that's your sweet spot.
That's the starting point.
And until you know that, youcan't possibly write a resume
that's actually going toresonate or know the full
spectrum of jobs that areactually available to you.
We are aware of only the jobs wehave intersected with in the
past.
And there is a whole lot of workthat needs to be done using the
(37:03):
talents you already have that istotally different than what
you've ever thought of before,but viable and possible and not
that risky for you to move into.
SPEAKER_03 (37:14):
Thank you, Lisa.
Really appreciate that guidanceto don't begin by looking at
what you did in the past.
Begin by looking inwards aboutwhat really lights you up and
what excites you as your firststep.
It's practical and it'sinspiring.
And I presume entrepreneurshipis something that you may also
encourage someone to consider orencourage the market at large to
(37:36):
do a better job of promoting.
SPEAKER_02 (37:38):
Of course.
Entrepreneurship, as we weretalking earlier, is really
important for productivity ofour nation.
Canada needs to do a better jobon it.
We need to have better awarenessthat entrepreneurship is not a
fallback career when you don'tend up in a formal job.
It actually is the engine thatdrives productivity in the
market and in our labor markets.
(37:59):
Entrepreneurship is a vehicle tomeet criteria if you already
know what you want to do.
It is a method or a mechanismfor how you bring your talents
to the world.
SPEAKER_03 (38:11):
Thank you.
I'm really grateful for yourthoughtful work that is also
practical for those who want tolearn more.
What's the best way to followyour work?
What's the best way to connect?
SPEAKER_02 (38:25):
Yeah, so Challenge Factory has a website.
It's challengefactory.ca.
There's a newsletter sign upthere at the bottom of the page.
It goes out every Wednesday.
So you get little tidbits andtips from us every Wednesday if
you sign up.
Um, I'm also on LinkedIn.
My handle there is author LisaTaylor, and I'm super happy to
(38:46):
connect anytime.
Thank you, Lisa.
SPEAKER_03 (38:48):
I'm grateful for your time.
My pleasure.
Thanks for the good questions.
This conversation with LisaTaylor really highlighted how
much careers are shifting aspeople work longer and rethink
what later career success canlook like.
I so appreciate how shechallenges the stereotypes that
can hold experienced talent backand shows how organizations can
(39:12):
rethink roles, conversations,and leadership to better support
people at every stage.
I'm Pauline James, and this isthe next chapter.
I'd love to hear if Lisa'sinsights have prompted you to
think differently about your ownpath or your organization's
approach to talent.
You can connect with me onLinkedIn or through our Anchor
(39:32):
HR community.
Thanks for listening and join menext time as we continue
exploring what the next chapterof work and life can look like.
SPEAKER_00 (39:58):
Follow us on social media.
and visit hrgazette.com.
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