September 10, 2025 • 21 mins
Maureen Brown joins the HRchat Podcast to reveal why employee voice isn't just another corporate buzzword—it's the untapped resource transforming workplace culture and employer branding across industries. As founder of Sullivan Brown Resourcing Partners and MySay, Maureen brings 16+ years of recruitment expertise to this conversation about why companies struggle to truly hear their employees.
We dive deep into the disconnect between conducting engagement surveys and implementing genuine listening strategies. Maureen explains why even well-intentioned HR teams and managers often can't hear feedback without bias, and how independent partners create the psychological safety essential for honest communication. "People want to feel heard," Maureen emphasizes, "and I don't know how heard you feel when you've filled in an online survey."
The conversation with Bill Banham reveals a fascinating post-pandemic shift in workplace dynamics. While pre-COVID exit interviews often contained negative feedback about direct managers, today's employees express positive sentiments about their managers while directing frustration toward leadership teams. Maureen unpacks the complex reasons behind this change—from decreased leadership visibility to middle managers increasingly identifying with their teams rather than with leadership.
Perhaps most compelling is Maureen's challenge to conventional employer branding approaches. Rather than investing in slick recruitment websites or referral schemes, she advocates for fostering genuine employee advocacy through meaningful listening practices. "There's nothing more powerful than genuine advocacy," she asserts, pointing to the missed opportunity when companies fail to amplify authentic employee voices.
Whether you're struggling with retention, rebuilding your culture post-pandemic, or simply wanting to strengthen your employer brand, this episode offers actionable insights on creating psychological safety, conducting effective stay interviews, and transforming employee feedback into strategic advantage. Connect with Maureen on LinkedIn or visit sullivanbrown.co.uk and mi-say.com to learn more about amplifying employee voice in your organization.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
And visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, Bill Bannam, and in
this episode, I am joined by theamazing, fabulous, wonderful
Maureen Brown, founder andmanaging director over at
Sullivan Brown ResourcingPartners and founder at MySay.
Maureen is an HR recruitmentprofessional with more than 16
(00:47):
years of experience acrossagency and in-house recruitment.
In 2013, Maureen set upSullivan Brown Resourcing
Partners specialising in HRappointments across the North
East, Cumbria and North West ofbeautiful England, offering
interim, temporary and permanentrecruitment solutions.
And Maureen was also recently aspeaker at the Disrupt North
(01:11):
East launch summit and her talkwas called A Voice Value
Visibility, and we'll get intothat, I'm sure, as part of the
conversation today.
Maureen, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I'm good, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Thank you very much for joining me, as we like to do
, on this show.
Before we get into the meat ofthe conversation, why don't you
take a couple of minutes andtell our listeners a bit about
yourself, your career,background, your loves and what
gets you up in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Well, career-wise, I have actually been a HR
recruiter since about 1999.
I spent a couple of years doingfinance recruitment, way back
when, and then moved into HR andknew that I'd found my home.
So that was where I was and Iworked within other recruitment
businesses and then set up myown business and then that went
into another business calledMySay, which I know we're going
(01:58):
to talk about today.
So I've actually got twobusinesses, I think probably I
always knew I should have beenself-employed.
I just wasn't maybe braveenough to take the leap at some
point.
So I'm very glad that I didthat.
And I'm based up here in thenortheast of England, but
probably tell from accent I am aNorthwest girl, so I'm from
Widnes originally, so overLiverpool way, and that is where
(02:19):
I grew up.
And then I moved up to thenortheast near Newcastle 18
years ago.
What gets me out of bed in themorning?
Do you know what I genuinelylove, what I do?
I mean, I'm a mum, I've got twokids, which obviously you know
means that I have to get out ofbed in the morning, otherwise
they wouldn't go to school.
But I think one of the lovelythings about being self-employed
is you can shape your workaround what you really enjoy,
(02:40):
and that's what I've managed todo over the course of the last
13 years or so.
So, yeah, just opportunity andconversations and working with
some brilliant people.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette Learnmore at hrgazettecom.
And now on the HR Gazette Learnmore at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the showWonderful.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Thank you very much.
And so the context of how youand I came together is a few
months ago.
A couple months ago we hostedthe launch event of Disrupt
Northeast just outside of Durham, and you were one of our
fabulous speakers that day.
Can you take a couple ofminutes and tell our listeners a
(03:30):
bit about the session that youpresented?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
First of all, it was totally nerve-wracking, I've got
to say I mean thanks for havingme, but oh my goodness, what a
challenge for me to be succinctand stick to the time limit.
So that was interesting.
I've never done anything likethat before.
But yeah, I spoke about voiceand visibility and value, and
also advocacy, the power ofemployee advocacy and I chose
that topic because I think,across the two businesses that I
(03:54):
have whether I'm looking at itfrom a recruitment lens as a HR
recruiter or whether I'm lookingat it from my, say, employee
research so we are looking atdata from exit interviews,
starter interviews, stayinterviews, engagement surveys.
One of the things that I see asbeing common across all of that
is that companies are notnecessarily understanding how to
(04:16):
encompass the power of employeevoice.
They do engagement surveys, butthey're not necessarily having a
listening strategy.
They have an engagement strategy, but the power of listening and
the power of voice andpromoting employee voice is
something that I just think alot of companies still aren't
good at and actually listeningto that feedback but then
utilizing it in a way that caninfluence recruitment strategy
(04:39):
and people's onboarding journeyand the decisions that they make
, the very complex decisionsthat they make to join or leave
a business.
So for me that all comestogether perfectly, but it's
something that organisationsseem to really struggle with.
So that's why I wanted to talkabout that, because I'm on a bit
of a crusade Bill, to be honest, to really promote the power of
employee voice, but done in away that businesses are really
(05:02):
getting some useful insight,some actionable insight that
they can go away and dosomething with.
And I also believe that if youpromote employee voice and you
truly understand how youremployees are experiencing their
work life with you, whetherthat's when they're starting or
leaving or throughout theircareer if you can focus on
employee advocacy as a measureof success and how good you are
(05:24):
as an employer, that will do allof your work for you when it
comes to your employer brand.
There's so much effort goesinto creating great websites or
refer a friend schemes Peoplestill ask me about, and I just
think there's nothing morepowerful than genuine advocacy.
So, yeah, I'm on a bit of amission to promote it, both from
my recruitment world and myemployee voice world.
(05:47):
I just think it's a reallyunderutilized tool and companies
need to think about thingsdifferently in that world.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I agree, and I think maybe we should talk more about
employee advocacy shortly.
Let's just focus for the timebeing, though, on one of the
things you mentioned there interms of the power of employee
feedback.
I talk to people a lot on thisshow about ways to garner useful
employee feedback to shape thecompany culture, shape the
direction, make it moreattractive to future talent, et
(06:14):
cetera, et cetera, to futuretalent, etc.
Etc.
The the question often isaround how can you make sure
that feedback is genuine, thatis authentic, because employees
are going to be concerned aboutsaying the wrong thing and then
having repercussions with that.
So is that down to anonymity?
Are there actually?
Is it better that, um, that youdo know who's saying what,
(06:34):
because then you can shape aparticular department?
If so, how do you ensure thatthe feedback is authentic and
helpful?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, in the main, I think our superpower, in my say,
is the fact that we are not you, we are independent and we do
guarantee anonymity andconfidentiality and for a lot of
the work we do, particularlywhen we're looking at stay
surveys rather than just leversurveys people want to have a
(07:02):
safe space that they can shareand if they don't feel that they
have that internally, the bestthing you can do is give them
the opportunity to speak tosomebody who doesn't work there
so that they can be honest.
And people want to feel heard,and I think a lot of companies
rely on an engagement surveysand pulse surveys, but I don't
know how heard you feel when youfilled in an online survey.
(07:23):
I certainly don't feel veryheard and a lot of the work that
we do.
So we don't just do onlinesurveys, we do telephone
interviews and face-to-faceinterviews, and a lot of our
time is spent actuallyreassuring people that their
feedback is going to begenuinely anonymous and in
confidence, and part of that isbecause some of the companies
(07:45):
that bring us in know they havea challenge.
They know that they havesomething that's not right and
they want to understand whatthat is, because they have
something that's not right.
They don't have that culture ofpsychological safety and
promoting employee voice that'sgoing to enable people to share
their honest feedback.
I think it's better to engagewith an independent partner,
because then you know that thefeedback that they're giving is
(08:08):
not being influenced by the factthat they're nervous about who
they're speaking to.
I think the other important sideof that coin, though, is that,
even if they trust you as amanager, even if they trust you
as a HR team and they do givetheir honest feedback, it's
really, really difficult for HRteams and managers to hear that
without bias.
(08:28):
So if you work in thatorganisation and here's just a
kind of real example that we seea lot if you're in a HR team
that's spent months on a projectto really increase the employee
benefits and promote thoseemployee benefits, but all of
the feedback you're hearing isbut I didn't even know what the
benefits were, and that's a realexample that we hear a lot it's
(08:50):
really hard to hear thatwithout thinking, yes, you did,
we've spent months doing this.
So it's hard to hear it withoutbias as well, and because
people are generally wellintended if someone's had quite
an extreme experience, it's alsoreally difficult not to go down
a rabbit hole with that examplerather than looking for the
overall themes that are going tohave the biggest impact for you
(09:10):
.
So if you're looking atsomething like stay interviews,
where you're literally askingpeople have you looked for
another job in the last sixmonths?
Do you see yourself being herein 12 months, so you can truly
understand the risk profile ofkey areas of your workforce, if
they're looking actively foranother role at the moment and
they don't have full confidenceand trust in you, they're not
going to tell you, you're notgoing to get the information
(09:31):
that you need to understand whatyou need to do.
They're not going to tell youwhat frustrates them or what
drove them to apply for anotherjob.
So definitely that independence.
I think culture is a massivething as well.
So if you are not promotingemployee voice or people are
giving feedback and not seeingaction happening from it, then
the chances are they will stoptelling you.
So it's actually reallydifficult to do internally, and
(09:52):
engaging with an externalpartner I think gives people
that real opportunity to beheard.
Partner.
I think gives people that realopportunity to be heard and they
appreciate that.
You know we have people say tous I'm so glad I got this
opportunity to share this andyou know, in an ideal world what
I'd love to do is stop everyonetyping on Glassdoor and give
really constructive feedbackthat can actually help employers
to make that experience betterfor the people still in the
(10:14):
business.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by
my Staff Shop, the UK's onlyemployee-owned employee benefit
provider.
We provide a range ofcompetitive and flexible
employee benefit solutions tohelp you improve your employee
value proposition, fromexclusive deals and discounts to
help your people stretch theirsalaries to effective reward and
(10:37):
recognition programs and acomprehensive health and
well-being offering.
We pride ourselves on ourfriendly and collaborative way
of working, putting the interestof our clients at the heart of
everything we do.
Learn more at mystaffshopcom,thanks.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And now back to the HR chat show so you guys go to
extra length to reassure folksthat what they are sharing is in
confidence, etc.
Is it fair, though, to assumethat the stay interviews are not
going to be quite as authenticas the lever interviews, because
you know at that point you'vegot nothing to lose, have you?
Speaker 3 (11:11):
do you know what?
No, I wouldn't say so.
I think some of the mostfascinating projects that we've
done have been stay interviewprojects, and generally people
like to be honest with us duringthose projects because they can
see there's a benefit to themto doing so.
So, um, for example, one of therecent stay interview projects
that we did was with a localauthority in the run-up to local
elections here in the in in theuk if you're not listening in
(11:34):
the uk, um, so these are ourlocal councils and that
particular chief executivewanted to understand the impact
that the local election resultsmight have on the motivation and
engagement of the seniorleadership team.
Those people were really openand honest with us because and
we see this a lot with stayinterview projects I think what
(11:55):
employers don't always get isthe fact that a lot of the
people that work for you lovethe organization and are really
committed to the purpose, notjust of the organization but
their own purpose within theirwork life to deliver that they
(12:17):
will share it, because they hopethat you're going to take that
feedback and do something withit that's going to enable them
to really feel satisfied in thework that they're doing and feel
that they're delivering fortheir stakeholders, for their
communities, for the people thatare in their care, whatever it
may be.
So actually we find that thestay interviews people are
really, really honest with us,even though sometimes it hurts
them to say it, and some of theinformation that comes out of
(12:37):
that is probably the most usefulinsight that employers can get.
But you have to create theright conditions for people to
share.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I'm guessing that the coaching that you and your team
offer to employees as part ofthis process is probably quite
useful when they're getting tothe annual employee review stage
, the conversations, the hrdepartment and their manager or
um.
I'd like to think mostcompanies don't do an annual
review these days and they domore regular touch points, but
you know the, the education thatyou're giving them in terms of
(13:06):
the, the language that theyshould be using, things that
they should be focusing on.
I'm guessing that all feeds in.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
yeah, I mean we try and stay as independent as
possible so we don't reallycoach those.
If somebody's telling ussomething about their employer,
we don't.
We can't even really empathizeand say, oh gosh, that's awful.
Or you know, what we try anduse is language like I'm sorry
you felt that way.
Have you had the opportunity toshare that?
Rather than actually empathizewith them.
(13:35):
Because, of course, justbecause you don don't like your
manager or your leadership team,it doesn't mean that they're
not good managers and goodleadership teams.
So we try and hear the feedbackand take the feedback as
independently as possible,without offering reinforcement,
because what they'reexperiencing might not be what
everyone is experiencing.
(13:55):
What I think is interestingthere that you raised about the
kind of coaching conversationsand the one-to-ones and the
feedbacks.
You're right, we should allhave moved away from annual
reviews.
Now I hope we have um, I don'treally like the word appraisal,
I'm not a fan of that, but whatwe see is that managers will
give us feedback that they findthose conversations difficult.
They find them difficult to do,mainly because of content, but
(14:16):
sometimes just because of timeand the sheer volume of work
that is passed to them and thepressure that's put on them.
What's been interestingpost-COVID is that pre-COVID,
people were actually verynegative about their managers.
When we were doing exitinterviews it was actually
really extreme feedback a lot ofthe time.
Since COVID, we've seen thatshift and we've seen people
(14:39):
saying no, my manager caresabout me, my manager wants to do
the right thing by me, but theleadership team are making it
very difficult for them to do so.
So this kind of negativesentiment or negative experience
is no longer perceivednecessarily as just a direct
manager problem.
It's shifted up a level.
We see people crying out forone-to-ones, for regular
(15:00):
feedback, for coaching andperformance, and yet it's
something that managers arequite nervous about.
So in not doing it, people don'tfeel supported or like they're
having an opportunity to share.
So there's definitely some workthat organizations can do about
making sure that they areregular and that managers are
giving the time to do them, butalso that they understand that a
(15:22):
one-to-one is not an appraisal.
It's not a manager sittingthere telling that person what
they think of their performance.
It should be a two-wayconversation where people want
the opportunity to say I'mstruggling with this or I could
use support on that, and if youget them right, they can make a
massive difference to engagementand employee experience and
advocacy, but it's definitely anarea that businesses are very
weak on across the board.
We just see it all the time andpeople craving that support and
(15:44):
not getting it okay, so youhave whetted my appetite there.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Uh, why?
Why the shift, thispost-pandemic shift from um
blaming having a badrelationship with your direct
manager to that now beingfocused at the senior leadership
, the C-suite, if you like.
What are some of the reasonsbehind that?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, do you know what?
There are a number of reasons.
In fact, there's lots ofreasons that always are on there
because it's individual acrossdifferent employers.
But there are some key reasonsthat we think sit behind this.
The first is that the pressureon middle management has never
been greater.
You know, let's face it,economic times are difficult.
The world is constantlychanging, Businesses are
(16:26):
constantly realigning and thereis a lot of pressure being put
on managers to get more from theteams that they're managing,
often with less.
So the pressures on thosemanagers are really difficult
and so they don't always havethe time.
Where the alignment has come andthe different perception of
where the blame for this sits, Ithink there's a number of
(16:47):
reasons.
Firstly, during COVID, managersreally rolled their sleeves up
and they were in there withtheir teams delivering.
So that camaraderie, that whodo I work with, who are my
colleagues day to day, thoserelationships grew.
So, firstly, where thosemanagers align themselves has
changed.
Also, we're living through acost of living struggle.
(17:10):
You know people are strugglingwith their money.
It's not going as far.
And those middle managers, youknow, all of a sudden they can't
necessarily afford theirholiday every year.
You know those wages haven'tnecessarily changed.
They still see leadership ashaving that, but they align
themselves more with the peopleworking for them than they do
the leadership.
They don't see themselves aspart of that leadership group
(17:32):
anymore.
They see themselves as part ofmy team, and so that whole
alignment has changed.
Now there is definitely someevidence to show that in some
ways it's just managers kind ofpassing the book a little bit
because they've got closer totheir teams and that's often an
easy way out.
But the other thing that we seesitting hand in hand with this
(17:54):
is often a lack of visibility ofleadership.
The managers are very visible.
They're sitting with theirteams.
The leadership scores aroundvisibility have dropped quite
significantly since COVID.
So if you're not seeing theleaders, we get comments like
the leadership don't understandwhat we do on a day to day, we
never see them, they make lifereally hard for my manager, et
cetera, et cetera.
That might not be true, but ifyou're not present and you're
(18:16):
not visible and you're notshowing that you understand,
then the perception is you don'tcare about me and you're making
life difficult for my manager.
You're making life difficultfor all of us.
So I think there's a visibilitything going on here.
Some of that will be driven byhybrid, but that doesn't mean
that I think everyone should becalling the workforces back in.
I don't.
I think it's this problem withvoice.
(18:38):
I think if leadership reallycould show that they were
listening and they cared andthey were taking action on that,
that lack of visibility wouldbe less of an issue.
So I think that is one of themain things.
The other thing that we do seeas well, though, is people who
feel really strongly about theiremployer and wanting that
business to succeed and theybelieve that leadership aren't
getting the strategy right.
And if they feel a real sense ofownership of that business to
succeed and they believe thatleadership aren't getting the
strategy right, and if they feela real sense of ownership of
(18:59):
that business say, they've beenthere a long time or it's a
brand they're particularlypassionate about if they believe
that leadership aren't gettingit right, they will disconnect
from that leadership, butthey'll still have a
relationship with their manager,who they see all the time.
So I think it's complex, Idon't think it's okay.
(19:20):
Businesses need to do this, andthat will change, but it's a
definite change.
It's a marked difference, Infact.
We often see, when we look atemployee experience heat maps
for leavers, we often see mymanager sitting right at the top
in terms of positive experienceand leadership sitting at the
bottom.
So it plays out in the data andit plays out in the feedback,
but it's quite a complex issue.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I've got so many more questions for you, but we're
out of time, isn't it?
And the way you present it isexcellent.
Um, one more question for you,though, before we do wrap up
before today, and that is howcan our listeners connect with
you?
Is that linkedin?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overthe tiktoks and places?
And, of course, how can folkslearn more about my safe and
(19:57):
Sullivan Brown?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
yeah, uh, I can definitely say I am not super
cool.
So, um, you won't find me onTikTok.
I wouldn't know how to use itor my kids would definitely tell
you I'm not super cool.
Linkedin is the best place tofind me.
So, um, I'm Maureen Brown onLinkedIn.
You can find me on there or youcan visit our website, so
wwwsullivanbrowncouk if you'relooking for support with HR
(20:22):
recruitment, or wwwmysaycom ifyou are looking for assistance
with amplifying employee voiceand understanding how people are
really experiencing the worldof work in your business.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Excellent.
Is that my-say?
Just to be clear, my hyphensaycom.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
You're right.
M I hyphen s a y, you'reabsolutely right.
And and the m?
I stands for meaningful insightfrom people having their stay.
That's where the name came from.
So, yeah, m I hyphen s a y,you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Sorry, and there will , of course, link a bit
listeners be links in the shownotes as well, so you can find
all of that there, in case yourpencil broke when you're trying
to write that down.
Um, maureen, that just leavesme to say for today, I'll uh,
I'll be nagging you to come backon, I think, but for today,
thank you very much for being myguest no, thank you for having
me, it's been great andlisteners as always, until
always, until next time, happyworking.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
Subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiastsand business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, followus on social media and visit
hrgazettecom.
And visit hrgazettecom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello listeners, this is yourhost today, Bill Bannam, and in
this episode, I am joined by theamazing, fabulous, wonderful
Maureen Brown, founder andmanaging director over at
Sullivan Brown ResourcingPartners and founder at MySay.
Maureen is an HR recruitmentprofessional with more than 16
(00:47):
years of experience acrossagency and in-house recruitment.
In 2013, Maureen set upSullivan Brown Resourcing
Partners specialising in HRappointments across the North
East, Cumbria and North West ofbeautiful England, offering
interim, temporary and permanentrecruitment solutions.
And Maureen was also recently aspeaker at the Disrupt North
(01:11):
East launch summit and her talkwas called A Voice Value
Visibility, and we'll get intothat, I'm sure, as part of the
conversation today.
Maureen, how are you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I'm good, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Thank you very much for joining me, as we like to do
, on this show.
Before we get into the meat ofthe conversation, why don't you
take a couple of minutes andtell our listeners a bit about
yourself, your career,background, your loves and what
gets you up in the morning?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Well, career-wise, I have actually been a HR
recruiter since about 1999.
I spent a couple of years doingfinance recruitment, way back
when, and then moved into HR andknew that I'd found my home.
So that was where I was and Iworked within other recruitment
businesses and then set up myown business and then that went
into another business calledMySay, which I know we're going
(01:58):
to talk about today.
So I've actually got twobusinesses, I think probably I
always knew I should have beenself-employed.
I just wasn't maybe braveenough to take the leap at some
point.
So I'm very glad that I didthat.
And I'm based up here in thenortheast of England, but
probably tell from accent I am aNorthwest girl, so I'm from
Widnes originally, so overLiverpool way, and that is where
(02:19):
I grew up.
And then I moved up to thenortheast near Newcastle 18
years ago.
What gets me out of bed in themorning?
Do you know what I genuinelylove, what I do?
I mean, I'm a mum, I've got twokids, which obviously you know
means that I have to get out ofbed in the morning, otherwise
they wouldn't go to school.
But I think one of the lovelythings about being self-employed
is you can shape your workaround what you really enjoy,
(02:40):
and that's what I've managed todo over the course of the last
13 years or so.
So, yeah, just opportunity andconversations and working with
some brilliant people.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Thanks for listening to this episode of the HR Chat
Podcast.
If you enjoy the audio contentwe produce, you'll love our
articles on the HR Gazette Learnmore at hrgazettecom.
And now on the HR Gazette Learnmore at hrgazettecom.
And now back to the showWonderful.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Thank you very much.
And so the context of how youand I came together is a few
months ago.
A couple months ago we hostedthe launch event of Disrupt
Northeast just outside of Durham, and you were one of our
fabulous speakers that day.
Can you take a couple ofminutes and tell our listeners a
(03:30):
bit about the session that youpresented?
Speaker 3 (03:32):
First of all, it was totally nerve-wracking, I've got
to say I mean thanks for havingme, but oh my goodness, what a
challenge for me to be succinctand stick to the time limit.
So that was interesting.
I've never done anything likethat before.
But yeah, I spoke about voiceand visibility and value, and
also advocacy, the power ofemployee advocacy and I chose
that topic because I think,across the two businesses that I
(03:54):
have whether I'm looking at itfrom a recruitment lens as a HR
recruiter or whether I'm lookingat it from my, say, employee
research so we are looking atdata from exit interviews,
starter interviews, stayinterviews, engagement surveys.
One of the things that I see asbeing common across all of that
is that companies are notnecessarily understanding how to
(04:16):
encompass the power of employeevoice.
They do engagement surveys, butthey're not necessarily having a
listening strategy.
They have an engagement strategy, but the power of listening and
the power of voice andpromoting employee voice is
something that I just think alot of companies still aren't
good at and actually listeningto that feedback but then
utilizing it in a way that caninfluence recruitment strategy
(04:39):
and people's onboarding journeyand the decisions that they make
, the very complex decisionsthat they make to join or leave
a business.
So for me that all comestogether perfectly, but it's
something that organisationsseem to really struggle with.
So that's why I wanted to talkabout that, because I'm on a bit
of a crusade Bill, to be honest, to really promote the power of
employee voice, but done in away that businesses are really
(05:02):
getting some useful insight,some actionable insight that
they can go away and dosomething with.
And I also believe that if youpromote employee voice and you
truly understand how youremployees are experiencing their
work life with you, whetherthat's when they're starting or
leaving or throughout theircareer if you can focus on
employee advocacy as a measureof success and how good you are
(05:24):
as an employer, that will do allof your work for you when it
comes to your employer brand.
There's so much effort goesinto creating great websites or
refer a friend schemes Peoplestill ask me about, and I just
think there's nothing morepowerful than genuine advocacy.
So, yeah, I'm on a bit of amission to promote it, both from
my recruitment world and myemployee voice world.
(05:47):
I just think it's a reallyunderutilized tool and companies
need to think about thingsdifferently in that world.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
I agree, and I think maybe we should talk more about
employee advocacy shortly.
Let's just focus for the timebeing, though, on one of the
things you mentioned there interms of the power of employee
feedback.
I talk to people a lot on thisshow about ways to garner useful
employee feedback to shape thecompany culture, shape the
direction, make it moreattractive to future talent, et
(06:14):
cetera, et cetera, to futuretalent, etc.
Etc.
The the question often isaround how can you make sure
that feedback is genuine, thatis authentic, because employees
are going to be concerned aboutsaying the wrong thing and then
having repercussions with that.
So is that down to anonymity?
Are there actually?
Is it better that, um, that youdo know who's saying what,
(06:34):
because then you can shape aparticular department?
If so, how do you ensure thatthe feedback is authentic and
helpful?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, in the main, I think our superpower, in my say,
is the fact that we are not you, we are independent and we do
guarantee anonymity andconfidentiality and for a lot of
the work we do, particularlywhen we're looking at stay
surveys rather than just leversurveys people want to have a
(07:02):
safe space that they can shareand if they don't feel that they
have that internally, the bestthing you can do is give them
the opportunity to speak tosomebody who doesn't work there
so that they can be honest.
And people want to feel heard,and I think a lot of companies
rely on an engagement surveysand pulse surveys, but I don't
know how heard you feel when youfilled in an online survey.
(07:23):
I certainly don't feel veryheard and a lot of the work that
we do.
So we don't just do onlinesurveys, we do telephone
interviews and face-to-faceinterviews, and a lot of our
time is spent actuallyreassuring people that their
feedback is going to begenuinely anonymous and in
confidence, and part of that isbecause some of the companies
(07:45):
that bring us in know they havea challenge.
They know that they havesomething that's not right and
they want to understand whatthat is, because they have
something that's not right.
They don't have that culture ofpsychological safety and
promoting employee voice that'sgoing to enable people to share
their honest feedback.
I think it's better to engagewith an independent partner,
because then you know that thefeedback that they're giving is
(08:08):
not being influenced by the factthat they're nervous about who
they're speaking to.
I think the other important sideof that coin, though, is that,
even if they trust you as amanager, even if they trust you
as a HR team and they do givetheir honest feedback, it's
really, really difficult for HRteams and managers to hear that
without bias.
(08:28):
So if you work in thatorganisation and here's just a
kind of real example that we seea lot if you're in a HR team
that's spent months on a projectto really increase the employee
benefits and promote thoseemployee benefits, but all of
the feedback you're hearing isbut I didn't even know what the
benefits were, and that's a realexample that we hear a lot it's
(08:50):
really hard to hear thatwithout thinking, yes, you did,
we've spent months doing this.
So it's hard to hear it withoutbias as well, and because
people are generally wellintended if someone's had quite
an extreme experience, it's alsoreally difficult not to go down
a rabbit hole with that examplerather than looking for the
overall themes that are going tohave the biggest impact for you
(09:10):
.
So if you're looking atsomething like stay interviews,
where you're literally askingpeople have you looked for
another job in the last sixmonths?
Do you see yourself being herein 12 months, so you can truly
understand the risk profile ofkey areas of your workforce, if
they're looking actively foranother role at the moment and
they don't have full confidenceand trust in you, they're not
going to tell you, you're notgoing to get the information
(09:31):
that you need to understand whatyou need to do.
They're not going to tell youwhat frustrates them or what
drove them to apply for anotherjob.
So definitely that independence.
I think culture is a massivething as well.
So if you are not promotingemployee voice or people are
giving feedback and not seeingaction happening from it, then
the chances are they will stoptelling you.
So it's actually reallydifficult to do internally, and
(09:52):
engaging with an externalpartner I think gives people
that real opportunity to beheard.
Partner.
I think gives people that realopportunity to be heard and they
appreciate that.
You know we have people say tous I'm so glad I got this
opportunity to share this andyou know, in an ideal world what
I'd love to do is stop everyonetyping on Glassdoor and give
really constructive feedbackthat can actually help employers
to make that experience betterfor the people still in the
(10:14):
business.
Speaker 5 (10:15):
This episode of the HR Chat podcast is supported by
my Staff Shop, the UK's onlyemployee-owned employee benefit
provider.
We provide a range ofcompetitive and flexible
employee benefit solutions tohelp you improve your employee
value proposition, fromexclusive deals and discounts to
help your people stretch theirsalaries to effective reward and
(10:37):
recognition programs and acomprehensive health and
well-being offering.
We pride ourselves on ourfriendly and collaborative way
of working, putting the interestof our clients at the heart of
everything we do.
Learn more at mystaffshopcom,thanks.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And now back to the HR chat show so you guys go to
extra length to reassure folksthat what they are sharing is in
confidence, etc.
Is it fair, though, to assumethat the stay interviews are not
going to be quite as authenticas the lever interviews, because
you know at that point you'vegot nothing to lose, have you?
Speaker 3 (11:11):
do you know what?
No, I wouldn't say so.
I think some of the mostfascinating projects that we've
done have been stay interviewprojects, and generally people
like to be honest with us duringthose projects because they can
see there's a benefit to themto doing so.
So, um, for example, one of therecent stay interview projects
that we did was with a localauthority in the run-up to local
elections here in the in in theuk if you're not listening in
(11:34):
the uk, um, so these are ourlocal councils and that
particular chief executivewanted to understand the impact
that the local election resultsmight have on the motivation and
engagement of the seniorleadership team.
Those people were really openand honest with us because and
we see this a lot with stayinterview projects I think what
(11:55):
employers don't always get isthe fact that a lot of the
people that work for you lovethe organization and are really
committed to the purpose, notjust of the organization but
their own purpose within theirwork life to deliver that they
(12:17):
will share it, because they hopethat you're going to take that
feedback and do something withit that's going to enable them
to really feel satisfied in thework that they're doing and feel
that they're delivering fortheir stakeholders, for their
communities, for the people thatare in their care, whatever it
may be.
So actually we find that thestay interviews people are
really, really honest with us,even though sometimes it hurts
them to say it, and some of theinformation that comes out of
(12:37):
that is probably the most usefulinsight that employers can get.
But you have to create theright conditions for people to
share.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
I'm guessing that the coaching that you and your team
offer to employees as part ofthis process is probably quite
useful when they're getting tothe annual employee review stage
, the conversations, the hrdepartment and their manager or
um.
I'd like to think mostcompanies don't do an annual
review these days and they domore regular touch points, but
you know the, the education thatyou're giving them in terms of
(13:06):
the, the language that theyshould be using, things that
they should be focusing on.
I'm guessing that all feeds in.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (13:14):
yeah, I mean we try and stay as independent as
possible so we don't reallycoach those.
If somebody's telling ussomething about their employer,
we don't.
We can't even really empathizeand say, oh gosh, that's awful.
Or you know, what we try anduse is language like I'm sorry
you felt that way.
Have you had the opportunity toshare that?
Rather than actually empathizewith them.
(13:35):
Because, of course, justbecause you don don't like your
manager or your leadership team,it doesn't mean that they're
not good managers and goodleadership teams.
So we try and hear the feedbackand take the feedback as
independently as possible,without offering reinforcement,
because what they'reexperiencing might not be what
everyone is experiencing.
(13:55):
What I think is interestingthere that you raised about the
kind of coaching conversationsand the one-to-ones and the
feedbacks.
You're right, we should allhave moved away from annual
reviews.
Now I hope we have um, I don'treally like the word appraisal,
I'm not a fan of that, but whatwe see is that managers will
give us feedback that they findthose conversations difficult.
They find them difficult to do,mainly because of content, but
(14:16):
sometimes just because of timeand the sheer volume of work
that is passed to them and thepressure that's put on them.
What's been interestingpost-COVID is that pre-COVID,
people were actually verynegative about their managers.
When we were doing exitinterviews it was actually
really extreme feedback a lot ofthe time.
Since COVID, we've seen thatshift and we've seen people
(14:39):
saying no, my manager caresabout me, my manager wants to do
the right thing by me, but theleadership team are making it
very difficult for them to do so.
So this kind of negativesentiment or negative experience
is no longer perceivednecessarily as just a direct
manager problem.
It's shifted up a level.
We see people crying out forone-to-ones, for regular
(15:00):
feedback, for coaching andperformance, and yet it's
something that managers arequite nervous about.
So in not doing it, people don'tfeel supported or like they're
having an opportunity to share.
So there's definitely some workthat organizations can do about
making sure that they areregular and that managers are
giving the time to do them, butalso that they understand that a
(15:22):
one-to-one is not an appraisal.
It's not a manager sittingthere telling that person what
they think of their performance.
It should be a two-wayconversation where people want
the opportunity to say I'mstruggling with this or I could
use support on that, and if youget them right, they can make a
massive difference to engagementand employee experience and
advocacy, but it's definitely anarea that businesses are very
weak on across the board.
We just see it all the time andpeople craving that support and
(15:44):
not getting it okay, so youhave whetted my appetite there.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Uh, why?
Why the shift, thispost-pandemic shift from um
blaming having a badrelationship with your direct
manager to that now beingfocused at the senior leadership
, the C-suite, if you like.
What are some of the reasonsbehind that?
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, do you know what?
There are a number of reasons.
In fact, there's lots ofreasons that always are on there
because it's individual acrossdifferent employers.
But there are some key reasonsthat we think sit behind this.
The first is that the pressureon middle management has never
been greater.
You know, let's face it,economic times are difficult.
The world is constantlychanging, Businesses are
(16:26):
constantly realigning and thereis a lot of pressure being put
on managers to get more from theteams that they're managing,
often with less.
So the pressures on thosemanagers are really difficult
and so they don't always havethe time.
Where the alignment has come andthe different perception of
where the blame for this sits, Ithink there's a number of
(16:47):
reasons.
Firstly, during COVID, managersreally rolled their sleeves up
and they were in there withtheir teams delivering.
So that camaraderie, that whodo I work with, who are my
colleagues day to day, thoserelationships grew.
So, firstly, where thosemanagers align themselves has
changed.
Also, we're living through acost of living struggle.
(17:10):
You know people are strugglingwith their money.
It's not going as far.
And those middle managers, youknow, all of a sudden they can't
necessarily afford theirholiday every year.
You know those wages haven'tnecessarily changed.
They still see leadership ashaving that, but they align
themselves more with the peopleworking for them than they do
the leadership.
They don't see themselves aspart of that leadership group
(17:32):
anymore.
They see themselves as part ofmy team, and so that whole
alignment has changed.
Now there is definitely someevidence to show that in some
ways it's just managers kind ofpassing the book a little bit
because they've got closer totheir teams and that's often an
easy way out.
But the other thing that we seesitting hand in hand with this
(17:54):
is often a lack of visibility ofleadership.
The managers are very visible.
They're sitting with theirteams.
The leadership scores aroundvisibility have dropped quite
significantly since COVID.
So if you're not seeing theleaders, we get comments like
the leadership don't understandwhat we do on a day to day, we
never see them, they make lifereally hard for my manager, et
cetera, et cetera.
That might not be true, but ifyou're not present and you're
(18:16):
not visible and you're notshowing that you understand,
then the perception is you don'tcare about me and you're making
life difficult for my manager.
You're making life difficultfor all of us.
So I think there's a visibilitything going on here.
Some of that will be driven byhybrid, but that doesn't mean
that I think everyone should becalling the workforces back in.
I don't.
I think it's this problem withvoice.
(18:38):
I think if leadership reallycould show that they were
listening and they cared andthey were taking action on that,
that lack of visibility wouldbe less of an issue.
So I think that is one of themain things.
The other thing that we do seeas well, though, is people who
feel really strongly about theiremployer and wanting that
business to succeed and theybelieve that leadership aren't
getting the strategy right.
And if they feel a real sense ofownership of that business to
succeed and they believe thatleadership aren't getting the
strategy right, and if they feela real sense of ownership of
(18:59):
that business say, they've beenthere a long time or it's a
brand they're particularlypassionate about if they believe
that leadership aren't gettingit right, they will disconnect
from that leadership, butthey'll still have a
relationship with their manager,who they see all the time.
So I think it's complex, Idon't think it's okay.
(19:20):
Businesses need to do this, andthat will change, but it's a
definite change.
It's a marked difference, Infact.
We often see, when we look atemployee experience heat maps
for leavers, we often see mymanager sitting right at the top
in terms of positive experienceand leadership sitting at the
bottom.
So it plays out in the data andit plays out in the feedback,
but it's quite a complex issue.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
I've got so many more questions for you, but we're
out of time, isn't it?
And the way you present it isexcellent.
Um, one more question for you,though, before we do wrap up
before today, and that is howcan our listeners connect with
you?
Is that linkedin?
Do you want to share your emailaddress?
Are you super cool and all overthe tiktoks and places?
And, of course, how can folkslearn more about my safe and
(19:57):
Sullivan Brown?
Speaker 3 (19:57):
yeah, uh, I can definitely say I am not super
cool.
So, um, you won't find me onTikTok.
I wouldn't know how to use itor my kids would definitely tell
you I'm not super cool.
Linkedin is the best place tofind me.
So, um, I'm Maureen Brown onLinkedIn.
You can find me on there or youcan visit our website, so
wwwsullivanbrowncouk if you'relooking for support with HR
(20:22):
recruitment, or wwwmysaycom ifyou are looking for assistance
with amplifying employee voiceand understanding how people are
really experiencing the worldof work in your business.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Excellent.
Is that my-say?
Just to be clear, my hyphensaycom.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
You're right.
M I hyphen s a y, you'reabsolutely right.
And and the m?
I stands for meaningful insightfrom people having their stay.
That's where the name came from.
So, yeah, m I hyphen s a y,you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Sorry, and there will , of course, link a bit
listeners be links in the shownotes as well, so you can find
all of that there, in case yourpencil broke when you're trying
to write that down.
Um, maureen, that just leavesme to say for today, I'll uh,
I'll be nagging you to come backon, I think, but for today,
thank you very much for being myguest no, thank you for having
me, it's been great andlisteners as always, until
always, until next time, happyworking.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode,why not subscribe and listen to
some of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette and
remember for what's new in theworld of work?
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hrgazettecom.
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