Pressure is rising on DEI programs, but the smartest companies aren’t retreating—they’re getting clearer. In this episode, Bill Banham welcomes global inclusion expert Dean Delpeache back to the show to unpack the legal, cultural, and practical forces reshaping workplace equity and belonging. From U.S. executive orders to multinational ripple effects, Dean breaks down what’s actually changing inside organizations and what’s just media noise.
We explore a critical reframing: equity isn’t about engineering outcomes—it’s about ensuring access. Accommodations, transparent processes, and consistent selection criteria do more than satisfy compliance; they unlock performance. Dean details how teams can move away from identity quotas while still expanding the pipeline through intentional sourcing: partnerships with veteran groups, disability organizations, and community networks that widen opportunity without promising a numeric end state. The result is defensible, humane hiring that holds up under scrutiny.
One of the most inspiring threads is the rise of neurodiversity at work. We talk candidly about shedding stigma, normalizing accommodations, and redesigning interviews to assess real job skills. Dean shares simple, high-impact changes—like structured questions, work samples, and clearer expectations—that help candidates shine and help managers make better decisions. We also dig into how leaders can host courageous conversations about race, belonging, and systemic barriers, using ERGs and time-boxed dialogues to turn discomfort into progress.
We close with the data that ties it all together: belonging drives advocacy. When people feel included, they’re dramatically more likely to recommend their employer, fueling talent attraction more credibly than any ad spend. If you’re navigating DEI rollbacks, stakeholder pressure, or global alignment, this conversation offers a roadmap: document fairness, widen access, train inclusive leaders, and amplify belonging. If this resonates, subscribe, share with your team, and leave a review telling us what you’ll try first.
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The HRchat show has had 100,000s of downloads and is frequently listed as one of the most popular global podcasts for HR pros, Talent execs and leaders. It is ranked in the top ten in the world based on traffic, social media followers, domain authority & freshness. The podcast is also ranked as the Best Canadian HR Podcast by FeedSpot and one of the top 10% most popular shows by Listen Score.
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Episode Transcript
Welcome to the HR Chat Show, one of the world's
most downloaded and sharedpodcasts designed for HR pros,
talent execs, tech enthusiasts,and business leaders.
For hundreds more episodes andwhat's new in the world of work,
subscribe to the show, follow uson social media, and visit
hrgazette.com.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Welcome to another episode of the HR Chat Show.
Hello, listeners.
This is your host today, BillBatham.
And back on the show after fartoo long is my friend and super
awesome human being, DeanDelpish.
Dean is a global diversity andinclusion consultant,
professional speaker, directorand board member over at
(00:47):
Stracity Inc., and program leadand professor diversity,
inclusion, belonging, and equityat George Brown College
Continuing Education.
And did I mention he's just anall-round awesome human being?
Dean, my friend, how have youbeen?
Nice to chat to you again today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01):
Bill, it is amazing to talk with you and super
excited to be back on the show.
And so much has happened in theworld since uh since we've last
talked.
So I'm really excited to chat alittle bit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Dean, I've got to tell everybody I miss your face.
Uh regular listeners of thisshow will know that I am not
based in Toronto on a regularbasis anymore because I've got a
young family and I'm back inEngland most of the time.
But when I was in TO, I'd get tosee Dean on a regular basis and
he'd speak at events that wewere doing and all the rest of
it.
He is just a good person.
Dean, why don't you start by forthose people who haven't
(01:34):
listened to our previousconversations on this show,
they're not perhaps as familiarwith you, why don't you take a
minute or two and reintroduceyourself to our audience and
update them in terms of whatyou've been up to over the last
couple of years?
SPEAKER_01 (01:45):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I mean, you know, I I'vebeen in this in the area of
diversity, equity, inclusion forthe last uh over 10 years.
Um, and you know, currently, youknow, I continue to work uh to
help support organizations withregards to strategizing around
how do we um move forward in uhtoday's space around you know
(02:09):
these words.
As we're all aware, there's somany things that have happened
around diversity, equity,inclusion in the last couple of
years.
And so it's really how do youyou know continue to create a
path forward?
And I still you know lead theprogram at George Brown College.
Um I'm the program lead.
We have about two professors whoare doing a great job still um
educating individuals in thisspace.
And I think uh, you know, fortoday it's gonna be a great
(02:32):
conversation about what's goingon.
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
How have recent DEI rollbacks, particularly in the
US, affected the work thatyou're doing with local and
global organizations?
SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, just for context, sopeople are fully aware, um, you
know, when the Trumpadministration came in in
January, they immediately ummoved forward with their agenda.
And a part of that agenda was tocreate executive orders that
would eliminate what theyconsider illegal DEI.
Um, discrimination is and um hasbeen since the 50s um illegal.
(03:07):
Um, there is a uh uh a lawcalled Title VII, which uh makes
it illegal to discriminateagainst uh anyone based on
whether it's race, gender,anything uh to that effect in
the workplace.
But um, you know, the Trumpadministration has moved forward
to say that uh companies havebeen doing what's called, and
I'll put it in air quotes sopeople understand, workforce
(03:29):
shaping.
And so therefore they wanted toeliminate what they consider
illegal um diversity, equity,inclusion programming.
So, in in hindsight, what hasthat meant?
Well, companies, particularly inthe US or companies who are
federal contractors to the US,have been looking at how they
(03:49):
can align themselves to thoseexecutive orders.
And what I what we you'venoticed is there's been a media
hype around um companies whopeople are saying are rolling
back initiatives.
But then there's uh you know theother side where there's
companies that they say they'redoubling down.
These are the terminologies thatare being used, right?
(04:10):
What we've specifically seen ismost organizations, and Gartner
um has done some excellentresearch where I believe it's
about 80% of companies have saidthey're not rolling back
anything.
But what we have seen is thatcompanies are just trying to
align themselves to theexecutive orders to make sure
they're not doing anythingthat's illegal.
And I think that's really,really what's key.
(04:31):
Um, and so as long as you canshow orve, if necessary, um,
that the activities you're doingare not considered illegal,
you're not trying to shape theworkforce.
And an example of that is, youknow, um uh companies may be
removing goals and targetsbecause that may appear that
(04:53):
you're trying to shape it in oneway or another, but doesn't mean
that companies are still nottrying to source from different
pools of talent.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
So I think it's just that move,just making sure companies are
aligned.
Now, where that quickly spillsover, Bill, is when you have a
multi-uh a company's head officeis in the US and they're
multinational globally, right?
Whether it's in Canada, the UK,or wherever, you're seeing those
(05:16):
companies starting to realigntheir programs to be aligned
with the organization in the US,typically just because they
don't want any issues over thenext couple of years.
And so that's really what you'restarting to see.
SPEAKER_00 (05:27):
Maybe you can help explain why a lot of
organizations pre-administrativechange removed the E from DEI.
What's up, what's up with the E,I guess is the question.
What why why is the equity pieceso political?
SPEAKER_01 (05:47):
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, look, can I be very honestwith you?
Since um, and I'll just be veryspecific, you know, this work
around DEI has been going on fora long time, but when George
Floyd was murdered, that's whenyou saw this influx of
individuals, companies start tosay, we've got to do something,
right?
(06:07):
We've always wanted to ensurethat there is equity.
Everyone has wanted that.
I mean, you think about this,right?
If you've got someone who comesto an interview who may um not
hear very well or may beconsidered deaf, you want them
to have an opportunity to beable to do their best work.
And so you provide them an uh asign language interpreter to
(06:30):
help support them in theirinterview process.
That's called an accommodation.
That's equity, giving people umaccess to things that they might
need to be productive.
But what has happened iscompanies and organizations and
people have thought that equitymeans equity and outcome.
So what we're trying to do isshape the actual outcome of what
(06:51):
is to happen.
So if we can put, you know, 10black people right into this
interview process, that means wecan get, you know, more black
people hired.
And therefore we're shaping theoutcome, and that's equity.
So the truth is that isn'tequity, right?
That is actually shaping anoutcome.
So what's happened is companieshave said, well, we don't want
(07:12):
to be perceived as shapingoutcomes.
So we're removing that wordequity, right?
Now the truth is that if wethink about the concept of
inclusion, equity is aninclusion because if you can
have an environment where peoplefeel included, you're going to
want to provide theaccommodations and the access
that they need to do their bestwork.
So it's fine to remove it, butwhy they've removed it is
(07:33):
because of the perception ofbeing seen as making an outcome
equitable when really and trulythat was not even the intent of
the word, nor has it ever beenthe intent of the word.
SPEAKER_00 (07:44):
So, I mean, you're the expert here.
Was it the right move to removethe E?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Um, I don't think so.
I think the right movepersonally was to explain what
it means, right?
And keep the narrative going andexplain what we're really trying
to do with this word equity,right?
Because you want equity.
Why would you not want equity?
You want people to have accessto accommodations that support
(08:11):
them in their journey at work.
And when they have that access,they're gonna feel like they
belong at that company, right?
Think about it.
If a company is like says toyou, um, do you require uh a
sign language interpreter?
We're happy to provide that toyou.
What is that person gonna feellike?
Wow, thank you.
I really, really appreciatethat.
Um, maybe you have a visualissue when you look at the
(08:31):
screen and you need a magnifier,and the company says, Hey, we're
willing to provide that for you.
That's an accommodation thathelps to provide equity.
People will appreciate that.
I think what we should havereally done is taken the time to
say no, we don't want, we're nottrying to produce outcomes and
and shape, so to speak, butwe're really just trying to
provide access.
SPEAKER_00 (08:51):
Okay, this is why we get Dean on the show time and
again, because he knows hisstuff.
Dean, are organizations changinghow they approach hiring and
retention then to avoid beingseen as too political?
And if so, what what what arethe consequences of of that kind
of recalibration?
SPEAKER_01 (09:08):
Yeah, I think what I what we started to see,
particularly over the last, I'mgonna say year or so, is really
companies moving away from whatI'm gonna call like goals,
right?
Um, you know, saying, hey, wewant X amount of individuals in
our organization by the year2027, right?
(09:29):
I think where companies aremoving away is from that, but
organizations are still beingintentional about making sure
they're sourcing from differentpools of talent.
Um, whether it is attendingconferences that are specific to
engineers in one demographic orcommunity, whether it's a local
(09:50):
organization that maybe focuson, you know, veterans,
military, individuals withdisabilities.
You know, one of the big thingsyou're starting to see now is uh
a move forward to support peoplewho have neurodiversities.
So I think we're still lookingat ways to bring uh individuals
from different backgrounds intoour workforce, whether it's
(10:10):
based on experience, skills, oreven identity, but you're just
seeing that elimination of, youknow, we've got to reach a
certain goal by a certain date,or else we're not, we're we're a
horrible organization.
I think that's what we're seeinga uh difference in.
SPEAKER_00 (10:25):
So on the neurodiversity piece, I'm I'm
dyslexic.
Um, and I've had roles whereI've been the editor at
magazines on the rest of it.
And I'm of a certain age whereuh there's a lot of uh shame
associated with being dyslexicuh in the workplace, frankly.
Uh not something that I wouldhave admitted to uh back then.
(10:46):
Um something that I I felt likeI had to hide.
Um what a wonderful outcome thatnow it's it's the opposite, and
we celebrate being neuro spicy,neuro neurodiverse, always
different terms.
Um what does that mean for thepotential of the workforce in
terms of new ideas, new ways tocollaborate, new ways to learn
that now that now that employersare embracing these neuro spicy
(11:08):
people?
SPEAKER_01 (11:09):
Can I ask you one question, Bill, before I answer
that?
My question for you is what madeyou feel more comfortable to
actually share that you've hadthis like dyslexia?
SPEAKER_00 (11:19):
Uh the the context that we now live in, um, you
know, in the last three plus,maybe maybe up to five years, it
it's it's okay to share thatwith people.
Um before, in my personalprofessional experience, it
wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
And Bill, what you just said is the work of equity.
It is literally making peoplemore aware that people learn
differently, are um uhunderstand and uh educate
themselves in different ways andmanners than what we typically
or normatively see.
And because of that, we can findspace for everybody in the
(11:58):
workplace.
And so I celebrate the fact thatyou even could bring that up in
this conversation so openly.
But number two, what is thatgonna do?
Your um conversation on that isgonna inform somebody else that
they can speak up about it.
And then what can we do?
We can create process, and thisis going to your question now.
We can create process in ourworkplace to say, hey,
(12:20):
traditional interviews don'twork for individuals who may
have certain um types ofneurodiversities.
How can we change our process?
How can we uh incorporate apartner that can help me us in
our process to ensure that wecan create teams of individuals
who may have neurodiversitiesbut can still do their best
work, right?
And so I think this is kind ofwhere we're rolling to.
(12:41):
Why this why it's so importantto share these stories, because
they talk about why equity is soimportant.
SPEAKER_00 (12:46):
We have we're already running out of
conversation of time.
This always happens when I getyou on the show, um, because I
like to ask you lots ofquestions.
Uh, next one for you.
How can leaders hold space forhard conversations on race,
belonging, or systemicinequities without shutting
people down?
Uh, especially when thoseconversations get uncomfortable
or maybe even polemic, diverse,divisive.
(13:11):
What are your thoughts there?
But because we are running outof time, I'm going to challenge
you to answer in 60 seconds orless.
SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Go.
Yeah, two things.
Two things people can do.
If you're working in anorganization, you want to really
create these spaces.
Number one, start some type ofemployment resource group, an
affinity group around umidentity where you can actually
have people in the room whereyou're comfortable to have these
conversations.
If you can't do that right away,have a courageous conversation.
(13:36):
Just say, hey, we're gonna havea uh talk today where we're
gonna talk about belonging andwhat makes people feel more uh
feel a sense of belonging.
Have that conversation and seepeople start to open up.
And I guarantee as you start tosee it, you'll have more and um
they'll be successful to helpyou to open those dialogues up.
SPEAKER_00 (13:54):
Okay, thank you.
So many more questions for you,but uh we only have a couple
more minutes here.
Um, so two more.
I would ask you two more.
Uh looking ahead, what's oneshift you believe that companies
must make to protect and advanceinclusion and equity work in the
face of growing externalpressure?
SPEAKER_01 (14:16):
I think that from a leadership level down and a
grassroots level up, we need toamplify the importance of
inclusion.
Like amplify it.
Now is the time that we need tosay that word constantly.
Amplify this is an inclusiveculture, amplify our leaders
(14:40):
need to be trained on inclusiveleadership behavior because
that's the foundation ofinclusion, making sure leaders
can lead teams, amplify ourteams need what we call
inclusive norms, a set of um umvalues that each team has in
order to do their best work.
Amplify that.
And the reason why I'm sayingthat is this, okay, Bill, there
(15:00):
was a study that was done by anorganization called Better Up.
And in that study, they asked uhan employee net promoter score
question, you know, how many ofyou would promote this
organization?
What they found is that um inthat study, 160%, okay, um uh
(15:21):
people are more are 160% morelikely to promote their
organization if they feel asense of belonging, which means
if you want the best peopleworking for your company, people
are gonna tell people about yourorganization if they feel like
they belong in yourorganization, not because you
have some great sourcingcampaign.
So make sure the people feelincluded, and I think we need to
(15:42):
amplify that.
SPEAKER_00 (15:43):
Excellent.
And just finally, for today, Mr.
Delpish, Dr.
Delpish, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01 (15:49):
No, not Dr.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
Yet.
I'm working on that.
Not yet, not yet.
Just give me a bit more time.
Next time we try it.
But so just just just for today,Dean, how can folks connect with
you and learn more about all youget up to?
And before you answer that, uh,I just want to um drive home,
listeners, that uh Dean is anabsolute gentleman.
Uh, I think extremely highly ofhim.
(16:10):
If you ever got an opportunityto connect with him or work with
him, uh, you are a lucky personand it will enrich your world.
Okay, Dean, with that said, howcan folks connect with you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Bill, I appreciate that.
Um, best way to connect with meis just on LinkedIn.
Go on LinkedIn, put my name DeanDelpeach, and that is the best
way to connect with me.
I do my best uh to connect witheverybody except if I think
you're a bot.
So uh feel free to send me aconnection.
Happy to chat.
SPEAKER_00 (16:36):
Rock and roll.
That just leaves me to say fortoday, Dean, thank you very much
for being my guest again on theHR Chat Show.
Bill, it's been an honor, asalways.
And listeners, as always, untilnext time, happy working.
SPEAKER_02 (16:52):
Thanks for listening to the HR Chat Show.
If you enjoyed this episode, whynot subscribe and listen to some
of the hundreds of episodespublished by HR Gazette?
And remember, for what's new inthe world of work, subscribe to
the show, follow us on socialmedia, and visit hrgazette.com.
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