Karen Wilkin: Critiquing the New Masters

Episode Transcript
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Hrag Vartanian (00:00):
So what are some of the things that maybe someone
like Clement Greenberg taughtyou about art in general that
maybe people may not know about?Or maybe there because there are
a lot of stereotypes about whohe was and and what he did.

Karen Wilkin (00:12):
The problem with Clem is that while he was a
brilliant critic and a very goodwriter, he could be a truly
loathsome human being. I thinkwhat put me over the edge was I
was in Knoedler Gallery lookingat something, and Clem came in.
And I hear someone behind Ididn't know it was Clem. And I
hear somebody saying, I knowthose legs. And I thought,

(00:35):
that's the only thing he canrecognize in the yeah.
Yeah. And, I told Michael Fried,who had stopped talking to him a
long time before that. And Itold Michael I'd stop talking to
Clem. He said, what what tookyou so long?

Hello, and welcome back to the
Hyperallergic podcast. I'm HanagBartanyan, the editor in chief
and cofounder of Hyperallergic.Today, we're talking with Karen
Wilkin. She's the head of arthistory at the New York Studio
School and also an incisive andthoughtful critic. She's a
contributing editor for art atthe Hudson Review and also

(01:15):
contributes regularly to NewCriterion, The Wall Street
Journal, and others.
And she's also writtenmonographs on artists including
Paul Cezanne, Georges Braque,Giorgio Morandi, Stuart Davis,
Anthony Caro, and HelenFrankenthaler, among others. And
one of the things we discoveredduring this conversation is her
background in ballet and howthat informs her own

(01:36):
understanding of sculpture andspace in general. Now I wanna
mention how special thisinterview is for me because
Karen Wilkin is the person whointroduced the concept of art
criticism to me back in college.Yep. She was my professor.
And what was wonderful aboutthat is before I met her, I
didn't know people did that fora living or could anyway. Not

(01:58):
that there are many of us.Through her eyes, I saw that
there is a world of people whoregularly look at art and engage
with artists and movements ofall kinds. I will always be
thankful to her for exposing meto this wondrous new world that
I'm still part of today. I thinkit's safe to say if I hadn't met

(02:20):
Karen Welkin, I don't think Iwould have been an art critic.
So thanks, Karen. You may alsobe interested that during the
interview, I also learned acouple of things about Clement
Greenberg that you'll probablywanna hear. So let's get started
because I'm eager to share thisconversation with you. Well,

(02:45):
today, I get to speak tosomebody who has been a
formative influence on me and isprobably the person who
introduced art criticism to meas a profession, as a as a way
of seeing, as a as a history, somany things. So Karen Wilkins is
with us, and I couldn't behappier.

(03:05):
Hi Karen.

Hi. It's a delight to see you.

Well, as

it was all those years

ago. All those years ago, right? I mean at this
point, it's 30 years ago. Well,we won't say. Worst count.
Yeah. That's right. Exactly. Itwas all it was all, another era.
So I wanted to talk to youfinally to a little bit about
your life and and and the workyou've done through the years.

(03:32):
You know, a lot of people knowyour writing. They know your
ideas. They know the fantasticartists that you've championed
through the years as well asbeen critical of and, written in
so many different ways fordifferent venues. But I'd like
I'd like people to get to know alittle bit of Karen Wilkin. Who
is Karen Wilkins?
So I wonder if you could tell usa little bit about your

(03:55):
formative years.

Well, I'm a native New Yorker and a native
Manhattanite,

which

is very rare.

Very rare. Was my father. And you still are in
Manhattan.

I still am. I've lived in a lot of other places,
but I came back in 86, and I'mnot going anywhere. And they'll
carry me out.

Right.

And my grandfather lived in Manhattan also. And
grandparents lived in Manhattan.Although, they were not born
here, they were born in what isnow, Belarus.

Oh, wow.

So I have a a long history with Manhattan. I I come
to Brooklyn, obviously.

Well, we thank you for that. And so what was
man Manhattan like growing up?And what is a part of that
history that I think peopletoday may have may not know or
may have lost knowledge of?

Well, anyone who's not as old as I am, and most
people aren't these days, whichcomes as a shock, doesn't
remember a time when New YorkCity kids could travel around
the city by themselves.

Right.

I mean, by the time I was in 6th grade, I I was
a very serious, ballet studentat that point, and I could
travel to my ballet classesmyself.

Wow.

And, you know, kids aren't allowed to do that
anymore.

Right.

So and I wasn't the only one. My my friends from
school and I would be travelingaround. And when you are at an
age when you're discovering theplace you live, New York quite a
wonderful place to do it.

I bet. And so if I remember, you grew up around
where we call Turtle Baynowadays, or where where did you
where did you grow up?

Central Park West.

Oh, Central Park West. There we are.

There we

are. There we are.

Actually, when when we were moving back here, I
was living in Toronto when myhusband, who is an architect,
decided that he didn't wannawork in Toronto anymore. He
wanted to come come to New York.And I the only thing I said is I
do not wanna live on the upperwest side.

You were done.

I had had that.

You were done. It was it was it was it was
finished for you.

Definitely.

So tell us a little bit about those those
years. Where where were yourfirst experiences with art?

Well, my parents collected a little bit.

Okay.

In fact, I inherited a very, very beautiful
Alfred Maurer gouache from them.They had friends who collected.
I also inherited an earlyKandinsky woodcut, which they
had been given by anotherfriend. Mostly, they had writer
friends. And that means everysingle bookcase I have is double

(06:51):
loaded because I have two copiesof everything by my parents'
friends, one dedicated to themand one dedicated to me.
Aw. And I've gotta do somethingabout that.

Yeah. That's well, that's that's that's kind
of beautiful.

A lot of writers and, but I wasn't allowed to go
to museums.

Why?

My parents didn't think that children should go to
museums. So by the time that Ifinally got to go to a museum, I
really wanted to be there.

Wait. So why would they think is it because
of the nudity? Was it I mean No.

I think they probably thought children in
museums were annoying to otherpeople as you know they are.

Well, that's kinda true, isn't it? Oh. Though
I think museums have changed alot since then.

They have. They have. But, no, I remember being
finally allowed to I mean, I Iwasn't, you know, old. I must
have been, what, 8, 10,something like that. But younger
than that, I wasn't allowed togo.
It was a Mattish show at MoMA.Oh, wow. I was ravished.

Wow. That's quite a quite a wonderful first
exhibition. Yep. Do you what doyou remember about that show?

I can still see those pictures, but I don't know
whether it's because I know themnow.

You know? Right.

Because I've I've spent so much time looking at
Matisse. Yep. Because I rememberwhen John Elderfield did the
incredible 1992 show when hefilled the whole building with
Matisse, the day of the presspreview, there were the bunch of
us standing outside champing atthe bit and ran in. And, you
know, like, 6 hours later, Icame out. And I remember a

(08:32):
totally involuntary thought as Iwalked out.
I haven't wasted my life.

Wow. I love that.

Oh, that that was an amazing show.

So what were some of the first reactions?
Were you like, wow. I can't waitto go back? Do you think like,
what

I was very excited about it. I also thought I wanna
try to do that.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And so MoMA at that time was
much smaller.

Much smaller. Not only was MoMA much smaller, but
pursuant to what I was sayingabout kids being allowed to
travel around New York bythemselves, my friends and I
from high school and maybe maybeeven from elementary school, we
would go. And I knew every inchof that place. I knew where

(09:17):
everything was in the oldbuilding.

Wow.

We all did.

That's amazing. So now There

were never any people. You could go and sit in
front of the, Monet Water Liliesby yourself forever.

And not anymore. Not anymore. Not anymore.

So get me started on MOMA and the permanent
collection.

I will get you started. If you wanna talk about
it, I would love to. But It's

an abomination, really.

I'm with you. It's an airport, honestly. It
feels like an airport to me.

Well, there's no coherence. No. And it I mean,
that's built in. The new Dillardand Scofidio galleries all have
multiple doors.

Right.

So there's no preferred pathway. There's no
sequence. And there's norelationship from gallery to
gallery. So it's chaos.

So fast forward a little bit. In high school,
how did your relationship to artchange?

I went to the High School of Music and Art, which
is now part of LaGuardia.

Mhmm.

Then it was a very rigorous academic school that
had extra programs or extraclasses in either music or art.
And LaGuardia was theamalgamation of music and art
with performing arts

Mhmm.

Which was always considered a vocational school.

Right.

So the academic standards were different. Got
it. And in fact, now the alumniassociation has some die hards
from the old days who were, youknow, trying to keep it up.

And where was LaGuardia then?

Then it was on the City College campus.

Oh, got it.

It was a a building with towers

Mhmm.

And a sort of neo gothic

Right.

And a big bust of fille arla la Guardia in the
lobby. And an absolutely amazinggroup of kids.

I mean So high school for you was sort of a lot
of exposure to the arts.

Absolutely.

And painting was an integral part of that?

You had well, you painted the first semester. Oh.
And then they figured, well,you've gotten that desire to use
paint and color out of yoursystem. Now we'll get serious.
Wow.
So after that, there weredrawing. There was a design
course taught by a woman who hadbeen at the Bauhaus

Wow.

And who we would put the we'd have these Bauhaus
exercises of design. And she hadexactly two things that she said
when the work went out for groupcrit. It was either profoundly
beautiful or utterly withoutmerit, and there was nothing in
between.

Do you remember her name?

Missus Ridgeway. Ridgeway? Ridgeway. Ridgeway.

Yeah. Wow. And she was she was, She

had been at the Bauhaus.

That's amazing.

There was another teacher who had been a Hoffman
student.

Wow.

That's incredible. Place.

I bet. It sounds like it. So now how about the
museums? Were you starting to goto museums then? Were you the
Whitney, the Met?
I mean

Well, the Whitney was very conveniently back to
back with, MoMA at that point.

Right.

Briefly before it moved up to the Brier building.
Mhmm. I I don't I never visitedit on eighth Street where I now
spend half my life because Iteach at the New York Studio
School, but you could go fromMOMA into the Whitney. Just they
were back to back.

Yeah. And how about the Met? What was your
experience with the Met?

It was also a place where you knew where
everything was.

Right. Yeah. And you had a favorite room,
favorite artworks?

I remember always being fascinated by the Venetian
rooms. I apparently had beentaken when I was still, you
know, a toddler by my father tothe Greek and Roman wing, and I
can still see what that lookedlike with the, with like a

(13:24):
Pompeian villa with sculpture init. And I always wanted to go
back to that. Well, of course,it wasn't there. They turned it
into a restaurant.

Right.

And they've it only, what, 10, 15 years ago
went back to being the Romaninstallation, but it's not quite
the same as I remember.

No. I can imagine. So what was your first
experience with art criticism?Do you remember when that was or
who it was or what the showmight have been?

Well, we were definitely reading things at
Music and Art. There was an arthistory course. And it was, you
know, pretty basic. I mean,there there were these kind of
we all had these jokes we madeabout it because the person who
taught it would say always saythe same thing, which is, you
know, Assyrian temples were hugeaffairs. You know?

(14:13):
That was all he ever said abouta Syrian temple.

And so then you went to Barnard knowing what you
wanted to study, or did you haveany inkling?

Yes and no. I mean, one of the reasons that I
wanted to go to Barnard, and I'dgotten into a couple of other
places, was I wanted to stay inNew York because I was dancing
very, very seriously.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. Oh, right. So Yeah.
You were one of the Balanchinepinheads as used to joke.
I'm saying it because used touse that joke.

Right? Well, you know, I had the bird bones, and
I was very flexible, and I waspretty good at it. My feet could
have been better, but I was goodenough at it that I was in the
most advanced class by the timeI was in Barnard. And I still
don't know how I did this. Iwould go to a 9 o'clock class at

(15:06):
Barnard.
I have my dance clothes under myclothes. I get in the subway.
The School of American Ballet atthat point was on 82nd Street
and Broadway Mhmm. Where Barnesand Noble is now.

Got it.

On the second floor. And every time I go to
the second floor of that Barnesand Noble, it's like, oh, yeah.
That was dressing room 1. Thatwas studio 1. That was studio 2.
That hasn't changed. They'vetaken the partitions down.

Right.

So I would then have a class. I go back to
Barnard. I have a couple moreclasses. I'd come back for
another class, and then I go domy homework. Why I didn't die, I
don't know.

So what was it about ballet that appealed to
you so much?

Everything. And it was the most, absolutely
extraordinary discipline. Andyou're aspiring to an abstract
ideal.

Mhmm.

Somebody one of the dance critics, I forget
which one, wrote, the arabesqueis real, the leg is not, which
says it all, the theabstraction.

Yeah.

It was a world apart from anything else.
Certainly, when I was younger,it was it was my salvation
because, you know, I wasskinnier and smarter than most
of the kids I was going toelementary school with, which is
not a good thing. Yeah.

So you you were able to pour some of your energy
into that and your intelligence.Yeah. And so tell me a little
bit about the instructors in inThey were

all Russians.

Really?

Except for Muriel Stewart, who had been one of
Pavlova's little girls.

Mhmm.

She was British. I didn't really like her classes
as much as the Russians. TheRussians' English was slightly
limited, shall we say, so they'dhit, which was fairly effective.

Okay.

There was a madame Tunkovsky who taught the
ferocious point class, and shelived on and on and on. And when
I moved back to New York in 86,she was still teaching ferocious
point classes that I would goand watch, and she was still
saying exactly the same thingafter the girls would do one of

(17:30):
the combinations. She would say,very bad and terrible, do again.

That was a good accent.

I had a lot of Russians to listen to. I also
had a Russian speakinggrandmother.

Right? So then I love that. So the so that was
sort of one of the places where,artistically, you also grew.
Dance has been in movement. I Imean, I don't think it's a
coincidence that sculpture hasbeen something you've written
extensively about.
It's connected to that. Right?

Right. Yeah. I mean, the the sense of I mean,
Balanchine technique and I'mprobably gonna get bore very
boring here. Balanchinetechnique, which is like nothing
else, partly because of itsspeed, but it's based on a very
tight fifth position from whicheverything is very clearly
articulated in 3 dimensions. AndI am absolutely sure that is

(18:21):
what I learned, and that's how Ican look at sculpture.

Yeah. I mean, I could see that. I mean, I I've
definitely, through the years,picked up, I was like, like,
It's the way that movement inspace is very interesting to
you, and I love that.

And with with some artists like, Caro, there's
always you experience many ofthe works kinetically. You're
you you feel that extension inspace.

Smith.

With Smith, it's incredibly important what's in
front of what.

Mhmm.

Even though his work is always described as
pictorial and flat, it isn't.

Right. David

Smith. Absolutely. Those subtle
three-dimensionalities. And, Iprobably shouldn't say this in
public, but my distinguishedcolleague, Michael Branson, who
wrote a brilliant biography ofSmith in terms of the history
Mhmm. And quoted people thatit's just marvelous to be able

(19:20):
to read, like his first wife,Dorothy Dehner, or his second
wife.
He's not good on the sculpture.He really doesn't see that three
dimensionality, which is and theartists that he like the
sculptures he like best are onesthat are not about that.

Right.

Like Giacometti or Magdalena Bakanovic.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like artists,
writers, I mean, sometimesthey're stronger in certain
parts than others and I think weall accept that and that's why
we read each other. Yeah. Youknow, it's like sometimes it's
true for And I

don't think michael ever danced.

Yeah. That's right. There we are. So at
Barnard what do did you startdeveloping an interest in
writing about the arts?

Yes. But it took a while. I mean, I was I did a a
very advanced medieval Frenchclass the 1st year because my
French was very good. I thoughtmaybe that's where I would, end
up. Barnard at that time washalf the size it is now.
It's still a very small school.But in those days, classes of 4

(20:25):
were not unusual.

Really?

Terrifying, but not unusual. No place to hide. I
remember one Italian class thathad 3. Yeah.

And and who are some of your professors there?

Well, the the ones that I ended up getting really
close to were the, for the mostpart, the art history
professors, and that was thegreat, great scholar of,
Northern Renaissance art, JuliusHeld, the great authority on
Rubens, as he pronounced it, andVermeer and, Rembrandt. He was

(21:04):
totally inspiring. Somehowwithout there being great
examples of, Holben's in NewYork City, he turned us all into
passionate admirers of thatartist. And, of course, when we
all got to Europe, we had ourlists of what we had to go see.
You know about that.

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And he he remained a very close friend.

Oh, that's wonderful.

Which was wonderful. In fact, my husband
and I took him to lunch about aweek before he died

Oh, wow.

At 90 7.

Was anybody teaching about modern or or what

Barbara Novak was teaching American art, which was
a brand new field at that point,and she was young. She's still
with us. In fact, I should callher. She's 90 something, I
think. She was married to BrianO'Doherty, who at that point was
the critic for The Times.
Right. So he was around, andthat was very interesting. And

(22:01):
there was, a lounge called theJames Room, which I don't think
exists anymore. But it was a ithad very high ceilings and big
walls. And Julius Held wasmounting exhibitions there

Wow.

Of things that now I think about it. How did he get
to borrow these things? We hadPollock. We had Klein. We had
Motherwell.
We had just just hanging upthere.

Unbelievable. And

there was elicited a lot of discussion about, you
know, figuration versusnonfiguration. It was a pretty
amazing department at that time.

I bet.

There was but but the when you asked about
contemporary art, you could notwrite your undergraduate thesis
about a living artist unless yourelated that artist to a
historical artist.

Wow. Things have changed. Things have changed.
Very much so. Yeah.
And so who were some of theartists that stood out for you
the most at that time? Or thatmaybe you were at you that
opened your eyes to new ways ofseeing?

Well, my father and Adolf Gottlieb were very
good friends. My father wasAdolf Gottlieb's physician. They
were the same height.

Wow.

I think they may even have been the same age, and

they

were very close. And so he was the real the first
I won't say real artist, but hewas the first really celebrated
artist whose studio I visited.And that became that was
something I did when I firststarted working as a curator.

Amazing.

Go and and do the first museum show of his
pictographs because he hadaccess.

Wow. And where was his studio then?

It was then on the Bowery. And what do you remember

about that?

It was this former Bowery Bank. Mhmm. There were
several other artists in there.He was he was very generous. We
looked at a lot of work.
At that point, however, he'd hada stroke and was in a
wheelchair. And what was veryexciting was, I went around with

(24:17):
him at it turned out to be hislast show. It was, in the Fuller
Building.

Mhmm.

It was one of the big international gallery, and
we went around, looked at thosepaintings, which were ones that
he had had the ground laid in byan assistant whom he called my
good left hand. And so the thethe drawing was somewhat
tremulous. They were reallybeautiful paintings. Mhmm. And
it was very exciting to goaround with him.

So what did you learn from him?

Well, I he was so, matter of fact about the way he
talked about the work, you know,how it was made, what he had
done.

Right. And and so was that I mean, you know,
abstract art was sort of stillbeing debated in the public
comments in a way.

It certainly wasn't my parents' living room
when I

It was.

When I was, in high school.

Really? Yeah. And so what were some of the
conversations

that you're hearing? Someone would always
say, well, Picasso can draw. You

know? Right.

And because my parents had friends who
collected more, more seriouslythan my parents, but they they
were buying well, they they werebuying mauer. Both of them were
buying mauer, and I was allowedto go along when my parents
bought their mauer at BerthaSchaeffer Gallery.

Mhmm.

And they narrowed it down to a head and a still
life, still life with a doily.And they were dithering, and I
said, why don't we get both? Andhe always shut up, kid. Well,
I'm living with the head. It'sbeautiful, but I can still see
the damn doily fading.

I love that.

And it my parents' friends also had Karl Knaths,
and I am extremely grateful thatmy parents were not interested.
And it had had very beautifullittle Gottlieb burst, which I'm
still living with.

Beautiful.

So, but I know it was always, I remember
overhearing those conversationsand there was a lot of emphasis
placed on ability to draw.

Right. That makes sense from that era. So in
college, did you start thinkingmaybe art is what I wanna do?
Curating, writing.

Well, you have to declare your major by, the end
of the 2nd year.

Got it.

You could also I think it's still true. If
something isn't offered atBarnard, you can take it at
Columbia. Mhmm. And there was anamazing course taught by someone
called, Morton was a surname,intellectual history of the
ancient, Mediterranean world.And it started with Gilgamesh,

(27:17):
and it went on from there.
It was one of the greatestcourses I've ever had in my
life. I remember when it ended,he said, some of you may wanna
stay in this field. You shouldget as many ancient languages as
possible. I suggest you startwith Aramaic and work your way
up.

So how's your Acadian?

It isn't. Anyway but by that time, I was getting
very interested in the arthistory courses. And you could
also there was a the head of thedepartment was a woman called
Marion Lawrence, who was amedievalist. Julius Held later
described her as a woman who haddevoted her life to scholarship

(27:58):
and lost all human qualities inthe process.

That's

hilarious. Would lecture from notes that

That could describe a lot of scholars,
unfortunately.

But she would lecture from notes that crumbled
as she turned the page.

Oh, wow.

And it's a great course. It was a year long
course in medieval art.

Right.

The art was great, but you could also, if you got
permission of the instructor toas an undergraduate, take
anything in the graduate schoolexcept the seminars. And I knew
Meyer Shapero was across thestreet. So so the A

great art historian.

The great art historian. And he taught early
Christian art. He taughtimpressionism. He did you name
it. He was a complete polymath.
And I was able to study with himstarting from when I was an
undergraduate. Whew.

Well, that seems pretty special.

It was.

And what were some of the courses you took
away?

Oh, I took early Christian art. I took
impressionism. I took

Any modernism or modern art?

The most modern course was the impressionism.
Really? Yeah. That he was he hewould just choose what he was
teaching.

Oh, was anybody teaching early like early 20th
century or

No. Ted Reff.

Okay.

That's a whole other story. He would prey on
Barnard girls, so I definitelydidn't wanna take his

course. Yikes. Yeah. That that's a whole part
of the story. It probably isn'ttrue.

Times were very different then.

Yeah. I bet.

I mean, there are quite a number of people
teaching that would, you know,now be in jail.

I bet. And what was it like being a woman in the
field, you know, or being awoman sort of studying these,
like, you know, our life ourworld is gendered. And at that
time, I'm guessing that probablyplayed a role.

Well, I discovered long after I graduated, I was
told that I was the brightestarts to art history student they
had ever had. But I wasn'tgetting any of the
recommendations for thefellowships or the internships.
Wow. I later discovered that mymale colleagues were getting
preferential treatment.

Of course, they were, unfortunately.

On the other hand, one who was a good friend ended
up teaching at Emory, which wasnot really one of my
aspirations.

Right. Okay.

I was also doing non credit art courses, and
Stephen Green was teaching

Oh, wow.

Who was an extraordinary guy, and he became
a very good friend. And hisdaughter, Allison

Who's a curator? Is

yeah. Allison blames me. She says she became a
curator because of me.

Right.

She's like family.

Yeah. She was at, Museum of Fine Arts in
Houston. Right. Exactly. That'swonderful.

Our parents were friends, you know, with that
kind of thing.

Oh, wow. But Allison always

looks like family.

So what was Stephen Green as a as a teacher?

He was extraordinary.

And what was he teaching?

He was teaching drawing.

He was teaching drawing. Wow. A drawing course.
Amazing. And he was a teacherfor a lot of important artists.

Oh, yeah. Well, I my whole relationship with Frank
Stella

Right.

Hinged on the fact that I had been close to Steven.

Makes sense.

And it would that was why Frank took me seriously.

Wow.

After Steve died, the Addison did a a show at
Frank's insistence honoring

Steve. That's right.

And we did he asked me if I'd do the show,
which, of course, I was happy todo. Steve had done a last series
of drawings that were absolutelyravishing, very mysterious,
very, very subtle.

So when you left Barnard, what happened? How did
you

Well, I I did an MFA,

first

of all.

An MFA in studio art? Or which yeah.

Okay. Also doing a lot of the art history as well.
Mhmm. Rudolf Bittcover wasteaching baroque. That's right.
I was working with Shapiro. Iwas working with I mean, the the
MFA really was a way of nothaving to write the whole thesis
because it had suddenly dawnedon me, you know, that Rudolph

(32:08):
Beck cover doesn't care whetherI can identify these ceiling
frescoes. And I had a Fulbrightto Rome, so I went to Rome.

And was that your first time in Rome? No. It
wasn't?

A couple of summers, I'd been involved with
the Spoleto Festival

Mhmm.

When it was still the Spoleto Festival. I I was
very close to Samuel Barber.

K.

That was my education in modern music.

Fantastic way to learn modern music.

Yeah. I was Sam's beard. Why he thought going
around with a 19 year old wouldconfuse anybody.

Well, it probably it probably did.

Nice for me. But we would go to these he felt he
had to go to all these modernmusic concert concerts. And one
piece, the duration of the notewas given, but the value wasn't.

Mhmm.

So everybody was playing whatever at the same
time. And then the next piece,the value of the note was given,
but the duration wasn't.

Right.

So the effect was more or less the same.

And in that era, I mean, one thing, that I've
always appreciated about you,and you were one of the first
people to be like this with me,which was there were gay and
lesbian people in your lifethroughout his throughout your
life.

Always.

Always. And, you know, I don't know how rare you
realize that is for a lot ofpeople. And I'm wondering, you
know

I do because I live worked in Western Canada

Right.

For a while. It's a long story, but I ended up in
Edmonton, Alberta, Canadaworking at a museum where I was
able to do things I would neverhave been able to do anywhere
else. I give you that. Yep. Witha pretty good acquisition
budget, there were, a pair offemale architects, obviously a
lesbian couple.

Mhmm.

Nobody mentioned it. And then the most egregious
of this was a one of thewealthiest people in town with
an enormous, gorgeous house, anelderly woman with a very
devoted son who, you know,organized all her bridge
parties, and then she died. Andthe son inherited the house. And

(34:21):
people were saying quiteseriously, isn't it nice that
that lovely young man has cometo share that great big house
with x? He would have been so,so lonely there by himself.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Right. Right.

Really?

Right. Right. Right.

They were serious.

Yeah. So what was that like be you know,
because it was still a stigma,very much so in society, in the
media. But to be around, youknow, sort of a lot of different
types of people, sexualminorities in different ways, I
mean, how would you describethat?

I it just wasn't an issue. I mean, there were
some things I look back on thatare kind of strange. We had
neighbors in the country, adoctor whom my father had gone
to medical school with, andtheir property adjoined the
property of our country house.We had a path that went back and
forth. His wife was my myfather's gardening buddy.

(35:21):
They were one very good friends.And I discovered many years
later, do you know about FollyCove? It was an artist
cooperative on Cape Ann that didhand block prints.

Yeah.

Beautiful fabrics. And which apparently they sold
at Altman's. And a 1000 yearslater, I did a Stuart Davis show
for the Cape Ann HistoricalSociety, which has a collection,
a great big big pieces of FollyCove fabric that you can flip
through. And I looked throughthe thing, and I realized that

(35:57):
that was what was in the house

and my parents' friends. Oh, wow. Yeah. So
that's Amazing.

So and and they had a great friend, a nice young
man, who used to come and staywith them all the time, who was
devoted to them both.

Right. So it was part of your life throughout
your life, and it was verynormal.

Question. Jerry Robbins was a good friend.

Right. Uh-huh. That's amazing. So now after
college, what was the first showyou curated or wrote about?

Well, it took me a while. I was in Rome. I got
married in Rome, which seemedlike a good idea at the time. My
only excuse is that I was young.And that's how I ended up in
Edmonton

Right.

Because he was from Edmonton. And what saved my
life was working at what is nowthe Art Gallery of Alberta.

Right.

Then the Edmonton Art Gallery. I was teaching at
the University of Alberta, beingthe most junior person on staff
who was constantly being told,no, you can't use the senior
calming room. That's only forfaculty.

Wow. Okay.

It was a long time ago. I got stuck with the adult
art appreciation course, which Itaught. And the second time I
did it, there was the samecouple who had taken it the
first time, who were on theboard of the Edmonton Art
Gallery, which had just built anew building Mhmm. And had a

(37:31):
director chief curator who theyhad just fired because he
organized an exhibition in whichone of the artists had a
performance which consisted ofsitting on what was called the
high level bridge over the riverMhmm. And throwing cornflakes

(37:52):
off it.
This did not go down well. So Isaw the here are these people
again. Oh, God. I can't tell anyof the same jokes.

Right.

They took me to see the then president of the
board of the Edmonton ArtGallery. He had a Jack Bush that
just knocked me out. Now at thetime, I'd only seen about 5 Jack
Bushes, but I was able to say tothis collector, this is the best

(38:25):
Jack Bush I've ever seen. Itactually still is one of the
jack best Jack Bushes I've everseen. Well, he thought I was
incredibly perceptive.
He then said, well, you know,when you go to New York next,
find me an Olitsky. Wow. Which Idid. Mhmm. And he that passed

(38:46):
muster too.
And then I got offered theposition of chief curator at the
Edmonton Art Gallery. Knowingvirtually nothing about Canadian
art. But luckily, I'm a fastlearner.

That's amazing. Yeah. So wow. And

And that saved my life. I mean, if I were if I
hadn't been doing that, I thinkI would have slipped my wrist.

So at this point, I'm gonna mention that my
first exposure to you was at theUniversity of Toronto teaching
art criticism, but you alsotaught a class about Jack Bush,
you know, or a workshopworkshop.

They were working on the beginning of the catalog
resume, which all these yearslater is finally being
published.

Right. Yes. And I do remember because I was
doing research on the ClementGreenberg archive for that
project Yeah. And hiscorrespondence. And it was with
you I visited ClementGreenberg's old apartment on
Central Park West.
I mean, he had passed at thatpoint, but his wife, Janice.

(39:47):
Jenny. I'm sorry. Jenny, wasthere.

Was Janice, but she was called Jenny. Got it.

And I remember visiting his apartment with you,
and, I remember that experience.Do you wanna talk a little bit
about your relationship withClement Greenberg?

Vexed. I mean, I was I was very thrilled to meet
him. I'd read his writing. Hewas very impressive

Mhmm.

Intellectually. I that apartment, as you know, it
probably still had some of thatwonderful

art. It was all full of it, actually. It was all
there. The number 1, the oldNoland 1 was there. They were
all there Yeah.
Still.

I mean, gradually, things were he would sell things
when he needed money. He wasn'tsentimental about these things
at

all. Right.

I was fortunate enough to go, sometimes to
museums with him, to studioswith him, where he was
absolutely pure. I mean, hewould just respond to what was
in front of him with nopreconception. And while an
artist was changing what wasgoing to be in front of him,

(40:57):
he'd look away. He'd look outthe window or look at a wall so
that when he turned to look atwhatever it was, it was an
immediate look. He wouldsometimes say you're ahead of me
there.

Interesting.

Let it cook. Yeah. So all the things about his
telling people what to do arejust not true.

Yeah. That became kind of like a, I don't
know, a stereotype. Right?

Oh, yeah.

That around this idea that he was telling artists
what to do.

I mean, everything he wrote has its very
authoritative sound, but youwhat you have to remember is
every single one of these beginswith a tacit in my experience.

Right.

He's trying to be faithful to what he saw being
led by his eye. And what hefrequently said at talks, and
I'm sure you've heard him oryou've read this, he would say
that if he'd had his druthers,that was one of his phrases, the
best art of his time would havebeen representational.

Right.

But his, what he was seeing told him it wasn't.

Right. So he was willing to sort of, you know,
look and see something that hedidn't necessarily expect.

He wanted to see something he didn't necessarily
expect. Now things change latein life. He was drinking much
more, and I think at that point,he was looking for something.
You know, he went withexpectations. But when I first
knew him, he wasn't like that.
And it was I learned a lot fromhim.

So what are some of the things you learned from
him?

Well, to to deal exactly with what was was in
front of you rather than toexpect it to look somewhat.

Or prescribed

something. Prescribed in any way.

Right.

And there would be discussions sometimes in the
studio because there are oftenmore than one person in the
studio. And I'd also I've also,for God, since 1982, been
involved with an internationalprogram for artists that the
sculptor, Antoni Caro

Right.

Started, which, in their part of the program is
what was called a workshop,which was like master classes

for artists. Triangle.

Triangle. Exactly. Which is still going strong.

Yep. It's it's headquartered in Dumbo,
actually.

It's headquartered in Dumbo.

Yeah. And triangle, of course, for those
who don't know, it was sort ofwas it, like, US, Canada, UK?
Was that the triangle theoriginal triangle? Right.

Well, by year 2, we had a French artist and a
South African artist. Now Idon't know what you'd call

Right. Right. Right.

I think 65 or more countries.

Amazing.

Every continent except Antarctica.

Right.

And one of the artists went to Antarctica on
the that British Antarcticsurvey thing where they send an
artist.

So you got it.

So we got it.

But you were also involved with Emma Lake
workshops.

I was a visitor at Emma Lake

Right.

As Clem was.

Right.

As everybody. Noland was there. Frank Stella
was there.

And that was in Canada, and that was also an
important workshop for a lot of,abstract painters. Correct? It
was. And important workshop fora lot

of, abstract painters.

Correct? It was. You know?

And it was very important for Canadian art.

Yes. Absolutely.

Because, when they started inviting, major figures
who came, The the story is thefirst one they invited was
Barnett Newman.

Oh, wow.

And he as you know, Barnett Newman was a
devout socialist and ran forsome New York City government
position on the socialistticket. Didn't make it, but he
ran for it. And he wanted to goto his the story is the first
thing he said was, where thehell is Saskatchewan and who is
Emma Lake? I don't know ifthat's apocryphal, but it's a

(44:49):
good story.

Was it because of the socialist history of
Saskatchewan?

Had a social credit government. He wanted to
go see what it was like.

I think that is that's where, health universal
health care in Canada started, Ibelieve. Or was it Manitoba? I
can't remember, but it was oneof those. Yeah.

So that's why he went. Yeah. And then they kept
inviting other people. The I'veseen the notes of the first
meeting when they decided let'sinvite somebody good, because
originally, it was the the artteacher at the University of
Saskatchewan who liked to fishin the summer. Right.
And the students went up withhim

Right.

Including Dorothy Knowles and Louis Perhutov and
other luminaries of Canadianpainting. But, aft they one of
the people they thought ofinviting was Picasso.

That didn't happen, I'm guessing. No.

But a lot of other people came after that. And
working side by side with these,you know, pretty celebrated
figures in the much smaller artworld of those days, with
artists from Saskatchewan,artists from Ontario, the it

(45:56):
wasn't us and them anymore. I'mcompeting on the same Right.

As the world has

And it made huge difference.

I bet. I bet it brought up a lot. So what are
some of the things that, you youknow, maybe someone like Clement
Greenberg taught you about artin general that maybe people may
not know about or maybe therebecause there are a lot of
stereotypes about who he was andand what he did.

The problem with Clem is that while he was a
brilliant critic and a very goodwriter, he could be a truly
loathsome human being.

That's unfortunate.

He had a lot of not very nice characteristics.
He would test people. He'd, youknow, see how far he could push
before you rebelled. He was Imean, I finally stopped talking
to him because I couldn't Icouldn't take the abuse anymore.
Really?
You know, there'd be some sortof talk, and at the end people

(46:53):
would say, well, is there anyonewriting now that you think is
any good? And then he would namesome of some male people who I
knew weren't any good. And I'mnot gonna name any names.

Sure.

There was an occasion when

And then he would never mention you. Never.
Never. Right. And he nevermentioned other women as well,
it sounds like.
No.

No. I mean, there was that famous, phrase of his,
Jew, bitch, girl curators, whichWhat? Yeah.

Are you kidding me?

I couldn't make that up. I grew up on the upper
west side. You're not allowed tosay things like that.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

The bane of the art world, he said.

Really? My my oh my.

But, you know, there'd be things like, at one
point he he said, oh, I have aconfession to make to you. There
was a an exhibition at DukeUniversity, from the collection
of the Corcoran of, AbstractExpressionism. It must have gone
beyond Abstract Expressionismbecause Helen Frankenthaler was

(47:59):
in it anyway. He told me theyhad asked him about the list of
people they wanted to invite. Iwas on it and a another woman,
called Phyllis Tuckman Mhmm.
Of course. Who is, okay. And andClem said, and I told them get
rid of the girls. Wow. And Isaid, you know, if you think I'm

(48:21):
no good, then tell them to getrid of me.
But don't tell them to get ridof me because I'm female. Well,
they invited me anyway. Theydidn't invite Phyllis. That's
another story. But that's thekind of thing he did.

So yeah. I mean, I could see that also. That kind
of, contrarian or or terribleattitude probably created a lot
of enemies to you.

It certainly did.

As it probably should have in some way.

I mean, when I finally stopped talking to him,
I think what put me over theedge was I was in Knoedler
Gallery looking at something,and Clem came in. And I hear
someone behind I didn't know itwas Clem. And I hear somebody
saying, I know those legs. And Ithought, that's the only thing

(49:06):
he can recognize in there. Yeah.
And, I told Michael Fried, whohad stopped talking to him a
long time before that, because Ithink Clem was incredibly rude
about Michael's wife, who was abrilliant, scholar, history of
psychoanalysis. Mhmm. And I toldMichael I'd stop talking to

(49:26):
Clem. He said, what what tookyou so long? And then, of
course, there was the otherlittle detail there.
My mother's best friend was ClemGreenberg's cousin, Sonya.

No way.

So I was hearing stories about what Clem was like
as a child. Some of which haveturned up in a biography.
Apparently, he bludgeoned agoose to death with a shovel as
a child.

That's unusual.

Yes. And I was curious enough about this when I
was still talking to him to askhim about it. And he said,
you've been talking to Sonia.Well, I had, actually. And then
he said, well, that goosereminded me of my father.

Woah.

Now I should say that, Clem's brother, Marty, who
was a writer, was one of thenicest, kindest, loveliest human
beings on this planet. Yeah.And, his daughter, Sarah, is
also a lovely, brilliant,delightful person.

Right. Well, to say, sometimes, different
siblings in the same family showup very, very differently in the
world for different reasons. Sowow. Well, I mean, you are a
brilliant writer, so I don'tknow what he was saying. But,

Well, he did use to say that I handled the
language well.

Oh, okay. I guess that that's his way of
giving a compliment. Right? Sowho were some of the people that
did inspire you to, you know, towrite more or you felt you were
in dialogue with?

You know, I grew up reading the New Yorker cover
to cover. Mhmm. You started withI started with the cartoons.
Then when I could read more, Iread the little there used to be
those hilarious squibs at theend of the articles, you know,
sort of weird things that gotprinted. And I think reading the

(51:35):
prose in the New Yorker when Iwas growing up, which included
J.
D. Salinger and Catherine Whiteand John McPhee and all of these
really, really good writers. Ithink that had a big influence.
My godparents were writers.

Right.

My godmother was the humorist, Ruth McKenney, who
wrote the Sister Eileen stories.

Amazing.

So I had and, SJ Perlman was a family friend, so
we had all those books.

Quite a literary circle around your parents.

Literary.

Yeah. How did that happen? How how do you how
do you think

I don't know. My parent these were my parents'
friends. You know? I don't knowhow my parents can be people.

Do you know how they met

them? You know, it may have been partly because
they were patients of myfather's Right.

Got it.

Who was a, very, very literate man who also was
very, very knowledgeable aboutmusic.

I mean,

I don't think anything ever, you know, would
be in the car, QXR would beplaying. There was never
anything that he couldn't tellyou what it was.

Wow.

So and my mother was, you know, a very
intelligent, well educated womanwho never did anything, which is
tragic.

So were there any books that were really
formative for you in early oreven even college or early part
of your art art career?

Well, I I read, believe it or not, Andre Malhot
was very you know, the

Of course.

That was a very important book when it first
came out. Which one? The Voicesof Silence Oh, of course. Which
is one about museum the idea ofthe museum without walls Yes.
Which is certainly current now.

Yeah. Absolutely. It's very prescient.

Yeah. I read Greenberg pretty much as soon as
as art and culture waspublished. I was reading some of
the magazines. Mhmm. So I readMichael Fried early on.
I knew that was lumpy prose.He's better now. Much better
now.

But important ideas.

Very important.

Very. Yeah. I've read a lot of fiction in those
days. Any favorite books?

Well, when I was I mean, some of these, that's one
I want to admit. I remember whenI read the Alexandrian quartet,

the one with Darryl,

I was just swept away.

I mean, it's a beautiful series.

Yeah. It's I don't think I could reread it now, but
No.

I don't think I could either, but I I remember
the first time I read that too.

I just got knocked out by it. But mind you, when I
was 17 and I read Thomas Wolfefor the first time, I was
knocked out by that, and I couldnever read that again.

So I have to ask you about his painted word
because when that came out yearsyears later

I thought that was hilarious.

Yeah. I know.

Tom Wolfe.

Oh, Tom.

The novelist.

Oh, the novel. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I messed

that up. Book, Look Homeward. Angel

Got it.

Ken Knowles' grandfather is a cat a
character.

No way.

Yeah. He's the, I think, undertaker who has the, a
surrogate, like the giant dollthat

he plays in. Wow. Okay. I got the mixed up
apologies.

Two very different.

Yes. Very different. Very, very different.

John Wolf was great writing about things he
hated. No. It's true. I mean, hehe could turn a phrase. He could
skew or something.

Right.

He was much less good on things he liked. And it
is much easier to be cleverabout things you don't like.
Yeah. Actually I feel very wellknown.

Yeah. Absolutely. This is kind of the
way it is. Right? It's sort oflike it's it's, you know, being
over critical in a in a negativeway can sometimes be, for a
writer, it's kind of deadly to,like, lean into that too much.
No. Don't you

think? But it can be fun.

Yeah. It can be fun. It's gonna be a lot of fun,
but it definitely is notnecessarily the best way to do
your thing. That's funny.

But you you asked me what I learned from
Greenberg. I think the thing Imost learned from him was, to
strive to be faithful to myexperience.

That's beautiful.

Because, you know, I sometimes have students in my
in my MFA seminars at the studioschool. They say, well, what
about objective criticism?There's no such thing.

Right. Yeah. Right. Though though some people
have tried to make it into that,but I I don't think anyone's
ever succeeded.

The other thing I learned from Greenberg and I
think I probably would have cometo this on my own anyway or
maybe I did come to it on my ownis to avoid theory.

Right.

Squeezing the your experience of the work of art
through some Yeah. Formula. Sowhy do

you think because, actually, I'd love that
you brought that up because it'ssomething I still think about is
why some people seem so enamoredwith theory. And that's not to
say theory isn't important inits own way, but it does feel
sometimes like a straight jacketfor some people.

Oh, it's easier. You don't have to really look.

Right.

You know, you can take a quick glance and use it
as a jumping off place for somesometimes very interesting idea
Right. Which may or may not berelevant to the object.

Right. Absolutely. So now tell us a
little bit about you were in,Alberta. So when did you move
there? What years were those?

Sixties? I was there from 67 to 78. 78, I moved
to Toronto

Mhmm.

And started working independently. There
were a handful of us independentcurators in those days and we
had all had in house experience.Now people get up in the
morning, you know, they smitethemselves on the brow and say,
I am a curator. Everybody's acurator. Everybody's something
hyphenated.
And nobody teaches. They're alleducators now.

Right. I love that. So what was Toronto like
then and the art world inToronto at that period?

A lot of very good painters. Yeah. Most of whom I
knew.

Mhmm.

Many of them had were people who had been,
encouraged by Jack Bush who wasvery, very generous to younger
art. I'm lucky to know him atthe end of his life. And he was
a delight, very unpretentiousand warm and such a wonderful
painter.

Right.

And many of these younger artists he had was very,
very encouraging to. And they'vebeen completely written out of
the canon by by the Canadianpowers that be, you know.

Well, things go in cycles, so who knows?

Whole generation. One of them was David Balduke
who was Oh, right. I think awonderful artist and a wonderful
guy. I miss him very much.

I still remember his sort of, like, his sort of
forms that kind of, like, fannedout. Yeah. Those are really
beautiful or are beautiful.

Died a few years ago. They still haven't done a
major show, which they shouldhave done. Sure.

You know? Absolutely.

So Jane Corkin, I think, a gallery, which is a
very good gallery, is showingsome of these people, which is
awesome.

Absolutely. So then you moved to New York, you
said, in 82, back to New York?

Back 85.

85. Okay. And so what brought you back to New
York?

Well, really, my husband.

Okay.

I I got rid of the other one, which was a very good
eye very good idea.

Out with the old, in with the new. Out with
the old, in with the new.

Don decided that he didn't wanna work in Canada
anymore. He wanted to workelsewhere.

So what was New York like when you returned?

Well, it was the eighties, so it was just digging
out from the seventies.

Okay.

And, where I live on 38th Street between 5th and
6th, Bryant Park had beenredone. It had by that time,
they had gotten rid of all thedrug dealers. They had replanted
it. So some of the drug dealerswere at the end of our block.

Right.

And but, you know, we lived on the block, so they
didn't bother us. Right. They'regone now. I don't know where
they've gone. Or maybe they justopened all those, cannabis
stores.

Hrag Vartanian (01:00:02):
Who knows? I I can't imagine how why there's so
many. I mean, it's justincredible to me.

Karen Wilkin (01:00:07):
Well, they they cracked down on a bunch of the
illegal ones in my neighborhood.

Oh, yeah.

That makes sense. Every 3 inches.

That makes sense.

And one of them turned into a gelato store,
which I thought was great. Thenwe went and tried the gelato,
and it wasn't any good. And Isee that that has now closed.

So who knows? I love that. So New York must have
been a whole different, animalin that area.

Still, you know, holding on to your handbag. And
Right. There were stillgalleries in SoHo.

Okay. Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. And the East Village
was becoming a thing?

Just beginning.

And East Village was becoming a scene too?

Village was becoming a scene, and Chelsea
was just just beginning.

Just beginning. And so what were you seeing?
Because, you know, there was oneone thing I've learned about New
York Art World in the seventieseighties was there there was it
was almost like a doctrine hadhad, like, descended on so much
of the art world.

That's a good point. I mean, when I was first
conscious of contemporary artand getting being fortunate
enough to know to get get toknow a lot of the artists whom I
really admired, who were, youknow, considerably older than I
was and established, and, Imean, the real education,
spending time with them in theirstudios, especially Anjani Caro.

(01:01:32):
But the color field painters,the abstract painters, were
coexisting in the marketplacewith the pop artists. And the
minimalists were gettingstarted. And there seemed to be
room for everybody.
It wasn't either or.

Right.

And then it became very either or, which, of
course, now it isn't either or.Now it's whatever. Right. Which
is the other side of

the lawn. Right. There's so many marketplaces.
Yeah. Yeah.
So many.

Yeah. Well, you must have slogged around the art
fair the way I did.

Yeah. We all you know? And it's like, you know

I thought your point about the mattresses and
the jewelry were extremely welltaken.

It was it was pretty funny. I have to say it
was unexpected and yeah. SoWhat?

It's jewelry.

Yeah. They were I mean, for those who may not
know, at the armory show, therewas a booth selling high end
mattresses and another sellingjewelry, which was not exactly
what we were expecting, I think.

In very prime locations.

I you know, I I to to joke, I actually thought
the mattresses were an artinstallation until because I saw
them from a distance. I hadn'tapproached it. And then someone
later had to explain to me thatthey were actually, no. They
were just mattresses.

Had exactly the same experience. I was coming
from a distance. I thought,

what some kind of minimalist sculpture? And
then I got up close. So but inthat period when you came back
to New York, if I remember, youstarted writing books more. Is
that

Well, I had already done the David Smith
book. Right. That was the firstbook I

With Abbeville Press, I believe.

That with Abbeville Press.

Right.

It's still in print. Yeah. Wow. I don't care.
Well, it's

a good book. But it is a good book.

Dorothy Daner said it was the best book on Smith.

Amazing.

And she was wonderful. Yeah. His his first
wife.

You also wrote a Brock book for that.

Wrote a Brock book for them.

Right. George Brock.

That was a lot of fun.

Yeah. Absolutely. But you were
starting to write books more inthat period.

Well, I mean, you asked me how I got started
writing, and that was entirelywhen I was working in Edmonton.

Mhmm.

I was doing exhibition catalogs, and, the
local artists who some of whomwere very good, some of whom I'm
still in touch with. I mean,there are 2 sculptors whom I'm
always in touch with, who Ithink very highly, Clay Ellis
and Catherine Burgess, who arequite well known in Canada, but
not here. Some of the localartists said, well, you you're

(01:03:59):
from New York. You haveconnections. Why don't you write
about us?
Well, the only connection withthe publishing world I had at
that point was my formerprofessor Barbara Novak's
husband, Brian O'Doherty, who atthat point was the editor of Art
in America. So I got in touchwith Brian and said, would you
like an article about WesternCanadian artists? He said, 2,500

(01:04:22):
words. Well, I had no idea whatthat meant. This was not the you
know, it didn't show you at thetop of your computer screen.
I mean, this was typing in thosedays. My first electronic
typewriter was a big deal, so Idid that. Then I started writing
for Arts Canada and all sorts ofplaces like that.

Arts International?

We all wrote for Art International.

I see.

That was the again, everybody. Michael Fried,
you name it.

It was a beautiful publication.

It was a beautiful publication. He didn't pay.

Really?

Oh, he would pay eventually. You know. But it was
it was prestigious to write forhim.

Okay. Okay.

No. I was thrilled to write. And and you are

Sorry. Who's him? I'm sorry. Mhmm. Who's him
for Arts International?

Jim Jim Fitzsimile.

That's it. Okay. Thank you.

Who I don't think is with us anymore. Right.

And so then, you That

was a rite of passage writing for Art

Right. And so then you started writing more
and more.

Well, then I got this phone call from from
Abbeville Press and said, wouldyou like to do a book on David
Smith? That took me about 30seconds. Yeah. Because I'd
already done an exhibition,called The Formative Years,
which was Smith's work of the'30s '40s, which I later
discovered was the first timeanybody had put Smith's drawings

(01:05:42):
with his sculpture, even thoughthe drawings were very related
to the sculpture. I mean, nobodytold me not to do it, so I did
it.
You know? So they knew that.That traveled. That came to New
York.

So then come the nineties. Now what what do you
remember in terms of how the artworld may have changed in the
nineties?

Well, it became much more polarized.

Mhmm.

You know? There in spite of the fact that that, you
know, the watch where, you know,the borders are permeable in
terms of materials, in terms ofkind of art you're making, and
whether it was figurative,whether figurative or abstract
or what. It just seemed to bemuch more of an us, them kind of

(01:06:22):
thing. Maybe generational.

Right.

You know? I mean, critics do tend to get stuck
with their generations.

Of course. Sure.

I am in touch with a lot of younger artists because
of teaching.

Right. But I'm sure the bulk of the artists
you're sort of correspondingwith are probably

But the ones I'm closest to, I mean, some of them
who are my generation, like JillNathanson, who I think is a
terrific painter. Yeah. FranO'Neill and other a lot of
women. Which is nice. And I waslucky enough to know Tom
Naskovsky pretty well, whom Iadmired enormously.
I know Martin Puryear, not notwell, but enough to have a nice

(01:07:02):
conversation with him every nowand again.

Right.

And so, I'm I'm a little peripheral.

Right.

And that's okay.

Yeah. And and so who are some of the artists that
have really changed what you do?You know, for you, that really
challenged you. And, you know,not necessarily, like, in
person, their work challengedyou or maybe some idea they put
forward. You sort of had aeureka moment later.
Who are some of those artists?

Well, the most recent one is, someone you you
probably don't know. AfricanAmerican artist named Clintel
Steed.

Oh, I know Clintel from the New York Studio
School.

Right. Yes. And Clintel's work always challenges
me.

I agree. I

think he's a spectacular painter. He's
dealing with you know, I didthat show for the, Equity
Gallery, which was I had awonderful time working on that.
And, he's so intense, and he'sso committed. And his work deals
with so many complicated issues,but it's always about painting.

(01:08:05):
Right.
And I find he's someone thatreally, I have to look very hard
and I have to think very hard.

It's a good one. That's a good one. Any other
artists who have challenged, youknow, your way of thinking?

Well

Jack Bush sounds like he was probably

Well, Jack Jack Bush, I just fell in love with
those bands.

Right. Right. Right. Right.

They're series I like better than others, but
he's so seductive. Yeah. But,you know, the person whom I may
have learned most from was TonyCaro. I was fortunate enough to
spend a lot of time with him inthe studio. He and his wife,
Sheila Girling, a terrificpainter.

Tony Anthony Caro.

Yeah. Yep. His wife, Sheila Girling, a
wonderful painter who who isvirtually unknown in this
country, well known in GreatBritain. Going to Tony's studio
was work. He was not the leastbit interested in being told, I
think that's a wonderfulsculpture.

(01:09:06):
He wanted to sit down and lookor stand up and look at the ones
that he was unsure about. And hewanted opinions and he wanted
suggestions. I wasn't the onlyone he did this with. He did it
with Michael Fried a lot. He didit with Willard Buckley.
He did it with an Irish sculptorwho lives in London, wonderful

(01:09:27):
artist called John Gibbons. Andhe wanted you to work. And he
wasn't enough to say, well, whatif tell one of his assistants,
pick up a piece of steel, holdit up. No. I don't like it at
all.
Take it away. And I learned morein Tony's studio. And, of
course, he was someone who neversettled for what he knew he

(01:09:51):
could do.

Another sculptor. There we are. A
sculpture. Yeah. And you likedbeing challenged that way.
Yeah. That's amazing.

And he, you know, he would change materials. He
would he would try things. Hesaid, I don't like doing the
same thing. It's too boring.

Right.

So if you look at his work, he's constantly
reinventing himself.

Any, other painters or that you can think
of?

Well, I would say to spend time with Ken Noland in
his studio was phenomenal. And Ialso had an opportunity to go
around the Matisse show in 92with him. There were the olden
days, there'd be scholars dayswhen the museum was closed and

there were a

small group of us, Bill Agee was one, who were
there every time. And sometimeswe'd get from 1907 to 190 9 in 4
hours. That was another greatlearning experience. But I
remember going around with Ken,and he he suddenly said, that
painting is keyed off of green.That's very unusual.
I mean, he was looking atpaintings in a way that I had

(01:10:57):
never looked at paintings.

Right. And how about in terms of video art or
installation artists? Anythingyou know, any relationships,
there that you

Absolutely. Marie Luthier, I think, is brilliant.

Right.

She's also a very good friend.

Mhmm.

Partly I mean, I I knew her work, but I got to know
her because she was married toanother fine perceptual painter
called Robert Berlind, and Boband I were an item when I was
17.

Got it.

God. He was gorgeous.

So let's let's pass.

I I find her work ex absolutely mesmerizing. And I
did the the, catalog of a showshe did called plains of sweet
regret, which is her, 6 channel,screen about the depopulation of
the Prairies, which an amazingpiece. MoMA has an amazing piece
of hers that was done about thefloods in North Dakota Mhmm.

(01:11:57):
Which they haven't shown inyears. Again, multichannel.

So now let's fast forward to 21st century
because I'm sort of keeping itseparate Mhmm. Because I feel
like the art world changed a lotthis century. And maybe it got
so much larger, but alsoEnormous. Yeah. Compared to what
it used to be.
Do you wanna sort of share yourthoughts on that? Like, what
happened then to the artist?

Sheer bewilderment on my part. I mean, I can I can
still visualize a page in theNew York Times? Now the New York
Times pages used be bigger, asyou recall. And we used to have,
in elementary school, we weretaught how to fold a newspaper
so you could read it in public.

Oh, wow.

Right. But probably the only really useful
thing I learned in elementaryschool. But, if all the
exhibitions were listed in, youknow, like, that much space at
the bottom.

Right.

And when Tiburon Denage had its 50th anniversary
in 2000, I had a researchassistant who brought me copies
of reviews of all the shows atTibor Du Nagy. And Art News,
they were sometimes only thisbig, they reviewed every single
exhibition.

Wow.

In 1950. So you you couldn't do that. And the
the other thing that, broughtthat home to me was the, late
brilliant art historian, LaneFaison, who taught at Williams.
And he and Whitney Stoddard wereresponsible for what was known

(01:13:35):
as the Williams mafia, whichwere the, all the American Art
Museum directors and chiefcurators who had gone to
Williams. I think they're allpretty much gone now.
They've retired or some havedropped off their purchase. But
Williams was all male in thosedays, and all these guys would

(01:13:57):
come in as pre med jocks, andthey'd leave as art historians.

That's quite an accomplishment.

They were Lane was amazing. And when Clement
Greenberg stopped writing forThe Nation, he, which was in
whatever it was, 60 something,he chose Lane Faison as his
successor. Lane had beenreviewing art books for the
magazine. And Lane told me thestory, he said, Clem told him

(01:14:26):
and called him and suggestedthis, and his response was,
well, I'm I'm an art historian.I don't know anything about the
art of my own time.
And Clem said, you write aboutthe art of your own time the way
you write about any art. And hesaid, come to come to New York
on a Friday. We'll spend theweekend. We'll see everything.

(01:14:48):
And they did.

Right.

You can't

do that anymore.

Can't do that anymore. Including going to
Mercedes Matter's house,Apartment, McDougallalle and
where Elaine saw his first,Pollock in the flesh Wow. Which
is now in the Yale Art Gallery.

Amazing. So how is it like writing about art and
curating art this century? Like,how has it changed? I'm very
selective. Right.

I mean, I I the when people say, well, I'm gonna
do Chelsea. I think, are you outof your mind? Quite apart from
the size of the enterprise,there's just a very high risk of
seeing a lot of really terriblestuff.

That's true. That's very true.

So I, you know, I go see certain things and I know
I miss a lot. Sometimes, youknow, somebody I have my
students in the seminar, beforewe start talking about whatever
we've read, I have them say whatthey've seen that week. And they

(01:15:52):
often go see very differentthings than I do, so that's
good.

Yeah. That is good. Of course.

Sometimes if I'm intrigued, I'll go, look at
that. But the main differencethat I see besides just the
sheer magnitude, is that it'sbecome all about money and not
about aesthetics.

Right. You know,

it's monetary value, not aesthetic value.

And so what are some of the things that may have
been may have improved in youropinion?

I'm not sure.

Well, certainly, women are getting more
attention.

Women are getting more attention. People of color
are getting more attention. Imean, sometimes deservedly. Yep.
Sometimes not so deservedly.
I mean, I am ecstatic that awonderful abstract painter like
James Little was on both floorsof the biennial Right. Making

(01:16:49):
some money and finally havingthe attention that he deserves.
Carl Hazelwood is getting a lotof attention.

Right.

Another, Triangle alum. Those are both Triangle
alumni. We're very proud of HewLocke

Oh, yeah.

Who has become the

Of course. Incredible.

Incredible.

Yeah.

He's one of ours. So these these are are they
having more attention paidbecause they are people of
color? Maybe. But they'rewonderful artists, and they
should have that attention paid.

Right. Exactly. Very well deserved attention.
Right? And And

McLelland is another alum.

So what are what are what are for people who may
not know your work, I mean, partof this podcast is sort of for
people who may not know yourwork to be introduced to you,
what are some of the books orthings you've written or or
shows you've curated you'd lovethem to take a look at that you
think is representative of someof the things you've worked on?

Well, one of the things I'm very proud of is the
show I did with my beloved latecolleagues, Bill Agee and Irving
Sandler. We we worked on a lotof things together. We did a
show that we called AmericanVanguards that was are Sheila
Gorky, Stuart Davis, JohnGraham, William de Kooning, and

(01:18:06):
their circle. Mhmm. 1927, 1942.
And we were looking at a momentin the history of American art,
particularly New York art, thatis often not looked at when
there was this extraordinarycross fertilization among these

(01:18:26):
young artists. Mhmm. And JohnGraham turned out to be the glue
that was holding them alltogether. He was the connective
tissue.

You

know, every and the way we got interested in
this is every time we wereworking I was working on someone
like Stuart Davis or DavidSmith, or any of the artists of
that generation, take a stepback, and I'd fall over John
Graham.

Right.

So at that point, we thought we should look at
this.

Right. Right.

And then I did a John Graham show with Alicia
Longwell for the parish where welooked even more deeply. But
American Vanguard is somethingI'm very proud of. I like my
Morandi book. Yes. It was thefirst one in English.

Yep. Amazing.

And it has very good color reproduction.

That's right.

And

you're the person who introduced Morandi's
work to me. I'd never I didn'tknow his work before.
Absolutely.

There's a show coming up

Oh, wow.

In New York. The thing that I I think I'm most
grateful for, happy about, Ibecause I write I do reviewing
as well as organ I play BothSides of the Street. I don't
write reviews of the shows Iorganize. I have to say that

these

days because conflict of interest is

It's a funny thing, isn't it?

Out there. Shall we say?

Yes. Absolutely.

The other thing one really honorable thing I
know about Clem Greenberg is healways said, you don't write
about anybody you sleep with.

Right.

I think he was probably true to that.

Right.

Anyway, the, because I write about all kinds
of shows, it means I have tokeep my art history chops in
order. Mhmm. I also get toexploit all my curator friends.

Mhmm.

And I learn a lot, you know, when I when I walk
around with them and talk aboutthe shows.

And when you're teaching, you teach a lot about
Cezanne. Well, it comes andgoes. Yeah. That's right. Okay.
Yeah. And who are some of theothers? Who are the some of the
real sort of touchstones foryour teaching?

Well, because I'm at the studio school, there's a
lot of overlap of what I'minterested in and them.
Obviously, Piero del Francesca.Yes. Obviously Cezanne. I have
them look at a lot of Bernini,which is slightly heretical.
But this is all in relation to areading course, which has the

(01:20:55):
pretentious title of words forthe wordless. But they start
with Cennino, Cennini and aRenaissance handbook, and they
go right up to Michael Fried andTJ Clark, and read artists on
art. They read Leonardo'snotebooks, they read,
Baudelaire, They read,Delacroix's journals. But they

(01:21:21):
also read Simon Czama onBernini. They read all kinds of
people, artists writing aboutart, art historians writing
about art, critics writing aboutart, and it's to give them a
sense of the many different waysyou can use language, with the
aim being they have to write athesis, which is not an academic
thesis.

Right.

Has to be tangentially related to their
work in some way. And as youeverybody needs an artist
statement these days. And wetell them that if you can write
an artist statement that peoplewill read and not wanna throw
across the room, if it stays inthe pile, your chances of
whatever you're applying for aregreater.

Yeah. There you are. That's so true. So now are
there things you wanna talkabout that we haven't touched
upon?

Because The thing we haven't touched about is
Maine Coon cats, but I'm

not sure if that's true. Love of Maine Coon
cats.

Well, I've lived with Maine Coon cats.

Yes.

One of whom is named for Lois Dodd, and I had
the pleasure of introducing LoisDodd, the painter, to, with Lois
Dodd, the, to Lois Dodd, thecat.

Oh, that's a nice that's a wonderful honor.

During, the lockdown when everything was
virtual

Mhmm.

The one good thing about that was that since I was
teaching virtually, we couldhave these virtual studio visits

Right.

To places we couldn't get to. Lois spent the
lockdown in Maine and did thiswonderful session with my
students when Lois' cat jumpedinto my lap so I could introduce
them. And Lois' dog is a catperson. It's very nice.

That's beautiful. So are there any
shows or books that you stillhaven't been able to write that
you're eager to put out into theworld? And maybe people who are
listening will will

There are 2 there

are

2 things that if I live long enough, I hope I can
still do. 1, I have anapplication in for funding. I
won't know anything about thatuntil November. I'd like to
write about the crossfertilization again, that moment

(01:23:34):
of in between and overlap aroundBennington in the sixties when
Antoni Caro and Jules Olitskywere teaching at Bennington, Ken
Noland lived in SouthShaftesbury. Robert Motherwell
and Helen Frankenthaler visitedfrequently, so did David Smith.

(01:23:58):
And people the painters weremaking sculpture. The sculptors
were having their work paintedsometimes by the painters or
were making sculpture that wassomehow responding to the
painters.

Was Paul Feeley there too?

Paul Feeley was teaching at Bennington, but he
wasn't part of this group.

Got it. Okay.

So you have, Nolan's stripe paintings
profoundly interest influencingCaro's low lying Bennington
sculptures. Oh, wow. You have,Smith proposing to Motherwell
that they collaborate, andMotherwell saying no because he
said he couldn't imagine what anelegy looked like from the side.

Wow.

So Smith paints his own elegy on steel and makes
his own sculpture. Amazing.Helen does drawings that relate
to seeing Smith in the field. Soall of this back and forth.

Oh, that does sound like a very rich period.
Yeah. That's amazing. And howabout a book? Any books?

Well, that is a book.

Okay. That's a book. This sounds like an
exhibition. That's why.

It would be a wonderful exhibition, but I
think a little expensive.

Probably. And how about an exhibition? Is
there something?

Well, another exhibition that probably won't
was gonna happen, was HelenFrankenthaler's Source
Paintings. All her life, she waslooking to old master and modern
master painting and painting herown variations on them. I mean,
that starts in the fifties. Andwe were when Helen was still

(01:25:29):
alive, but not in great shape,we were talking about doing this
show. The American Federation ofArts wanted to do it.
Unfortunately, the AFA needs tomeet a certain needs to receive
a certain amount of money fortheir work. And, that means you

(01:25:53):
have to have a certain number ofvenues for a show. And they had
a certain number of venues, butone of them was the Museum of
Women's Art, which Helen wasviolently opposed to. Really?
When they got going, shewouldn't give them a work.
They said if they wantedsomething of theirs hers, they
had to buy it.

Wow.

Yeah. She didn't believe in that kind of
segregation.

Oh, interesting.

Well, I tend to agree with it, you know. It's
like, why should it be aseparate category?

Right.

Helen's then husband, Helen at at that point
was not making the bestdecisions. He absolutely vetoed
it. Even though someone who wasvery close to Helen, who had
been her assistant for years andI, we sat down and said, you
know, there are a lot of womenwho are getting much more
attention than Helen, who arenot as good and maybe it's time

(01:26:49):
to move into that. She thoughtit was okay. And this was
someone who had worked for Helenfor 30 years.

Makes sense.

But Steve didn't think it was a good idea. I hope
that might happen again.

I think those both sound like great ideas. So
I wanted to, unless there'ssomething you'd like to talk
about that we haven't touchedupon.

We've got another 30 years of conversation.

I mean, there's so much more we can add, but,
you know, I just think you know,I just wanna say that, you know,
maybe people may not know, but,you know, you've been so
formative for me as as as awriter, as a thinker in
different ways because I I wannasay that you've never been
prescriptive. And you've alwaysnot. No. Well, you know, I think
some some professors can bewhere they try to create mini

(01:27:35):
me's, you know, or the versionsof themselves, but I've never
felt that with you. I've alwaysfelt like you've always
encouraged me and others I I'vealso seen to find their own
path.
And I just wanna say how rarethat is and how amazing that is
to feel that connection withsomebody who's always you know,

(01:27:56):
you know, I probably done thingsyou may not agree with or ideas
I've pursued you've not butyou've never judged me for them.
And I just wanna say how kindand wonderful that's been. And I
just wanna say thank you forkind of showing me, first of
all, that there is somethingcalled an art critic in the
world, and that our art can besomething that we can explore

(01:28:18):
with our own, you know, toolboxmaybe that, you know, and and
you gave me some of those tools.But I just wanna say thank you
for that and how what a pleasureit's been.

I'm very touched to hear this. But, you know, it
never occurred to me that therewas any other way to do it.

Well, there unfortunately is for some
people, and I just think it's itjust shows your kindness and and
your ability to sort of pushpeople to sort of help realize
what they want to do withoutever feeling like they had to be
just like you, which I thinkprobably, you know, listening to
your stories just reminds methat, you know, you understand

(01:28:57):
the the value of being able tobe yourself.

Well, I've been lucky in that I spent a lot of
time with people who wereaggressively themselves in the
studio, and I learned a lot fromthat.

Yeah.

It was exciting to see that.

Well, thank you, Karen. And, you. And thank you
for this conversation. It'salways a delight.

The pleasure was all mine.

Thank you so much for listening. This podcast
is edited by producer, IsabellaSegalovich, and a quick word
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