What happens when you blend personal evolution with professional excellence? Discover the remarkable journey of Sanjiv Gossain, who migrated to the UK as a child and navigated the complexities of identity, culture, and leadership. From overcoming the challenges of fitting in during the 1970s to embracing his unique identity in diverse environments like the US, Sanjiv's story is a testament to resilience and growth. He shares how pivotal experiences and roles, including his time as global CTO at Cambridge Technology Partners, shaped his path to becoming a prominent business leader.
In an era where AI and digital transformation are redefining industries, Sanjiv sheds light on the critical role of human connection and ethical leadership. Hear about the inspiring influence of a female leader whose inclusive approach made every voice count, emphasizing the need for vigilance against biases in AI systems. This episode does not shy away from addressing how technology can either challenge or reinforce societal biases, urging for ongoing dialogue and education to ensure AI's ethical integration into society.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hello and welcome to a special podcast series called
the CEO Activist.
On this series, I have theopportunity to meet with and
interview inspirational andforward-thinking CEOs and senior
executives who have a realagency and interest in driving
business for good, often throughutilization of inclusion as a
(00:31):
commercial lever for economicgrowth and prosperity.
Today, I'm joined by a fabulousindividual.
His name is Sanjiv Ghosain.
He is the general manager andhead of EMEA for Rise on
Business.
He's been at the firm since2022, and he has overall
responsibility for theorganization's global enterprise
business in the EMEA region.
(00:52):
He's had a huge amount ofinternational experience, having
lived in America for over adecade and working for globally
recognized firms such asCognizant.
He's also an advisor and amentor, an advocate and an ally.
He's recently learned hisexpertise to celebrating women
in sales, of which many of theVerizon women were very proudly
(01:13):
named as a final piece.
And Sanjiv I'm sure you'll tellme off for saying this, but
Sanjiv is actually a publishedauthor and he holds a board
directorship from HenleyBusiness School.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
author and he holds a board directorship from Henley
Business School.
Welcome, Sanjib.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, thank you very much, Leila Nice, to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So let's go right back to thebeginning.
Tell us a little bit about you,how you came to be where you
are today, whether you sawyourself in this role and all
the great things that led you tothis place.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sure, so let me start back, if that's okay.
When I when we came to thiscountry because I live in
England and my parents came toEngland when I was four years
old and when my father andmother moved here and then they
decided to stay here when I wasa small child of four and really
grew up here in the UK and Ithink that was quite informative
(02:09):
and educational for me, becausewhen I came in here my English
was limited at the time and Iwas really it was tough to fit
in.
I'm talking early 70s here, sothe 1970s in the UK.
You know there were differentchallenges around growing up as
an immigrant.
It's changed a lot since then,but back then it was quite
(02:30):
challenging at times, quitedifficult at times, but I was
always trying to fit in.
I think at that time I grew upin West London.
My high school was quitediverse.
Actually I was quite lucky inthat respect.
We had people from all types ofbackgrounds white working class
, people from the Caribbean,other folks from Indian
subcontinent, other kids my agefrom Poland, greece, who all
(02:52):
grew up here.
So it was quite a melting pot.
So that was really reallyfortunate, but I really tried to
fit in and be like others, andthat was a characteristic, I
would say, of still.
I was in my in my teens andmaybe in late teens and early
20s, perhaps always trying tofit in and trying to make sure
that I was accepted, becausethat was one of the challenges.
(03:14):
As you grow up here.
You have certain incidents, youknow, racial incidents etc and
so on, as I had back then, andthat made it challenging to try
and fit in and belong.
I was educated as an engineer,as the software engineer in in
university in colchester andessex, and uh did uh bachelor's
and master's and phd there.
So I came from a technicalbackground and I saw myself as
(03:37):
an engineer.
But I was never a really abackroom engineer.
I was always in the frontoffice, so to speak, trying to
get stuff done with with people,trying to really understand how
it can help business and thebusiness implication of it.
And I think that's how I becamea leader in the business area.
I had a gentleman in my earlydays at Cognizant who took a
(04:00):
punt on me and said why don'tyou move from being a technical
person to being a businessleader?
And that really, really helpedme, because then I was able to
become a business leader andtherefore grow considerably,
working at that greatorganization, really taking on
more leadership responsibilities.
So that was really reallyimportant for me and influential
.
And I think also, if I'mfitting in, then I'm suppressing
(04:25):
what I have to offer, and Ithink the gentleman who gave me
that opportunity he reallyreally opened my eyes to that.
I said don't try and fit in,just be who you are and really
let your inner self shinethrough, and I think that's what
was really really important forme.
Then what happened after thatwas after I was at Cognizant for
a number of years.
I was able to grow the businessthere, leaving the UK, running
(04:46):
our global telecom business,running a digital business, etc.
And I think that was a veryformative time for me and it was
a company which really reallybrought the best out of people
in the way that we are able toexpress ourselves, we are able
to work very collaborativelywith customers, really really be
at the leading forefront ofsoftware development and
(05:09):
engineering, et cetera, and soon.
I was also lucky to live in theUS for a number of years.
I worked there with a number ofpeople and I think that really
shaped my background as well andmy outlook, because in the US I
found a little bit easier towork there than I did in the UK.
In fact, I found that peoplewere really I was different, I
(05:31):
had an English accent, I livedin the US and so that was really
quite interesting, because thenI was different and people
valued my difference and so Iwas even in a better way to
express that I was different andreally let that shine through,
and I think that really helpedme as I was moving forward.
Better way to express that Iwas different and really let
that shine through, and I thinkthat really helped me as I was
moving forward.
(05:52):
I worked for a gentleman therein a different company Cambridge
Technology Partners at the timewho really really again placed
a bet on me and said you know,I'd like you to take on this
global CTO role, which I did,and that really really helped
because I was able to then growagain as a leader through
another great company, whichreally helped formulate my
professional artwork etc.
So it's been a combination ofthings really of trying to fit
in and then realizing that youdon't want to suppress who you
(06:13):
are but bring out your best inyou and then really really other
people recognize it and thenthey can really really value it
and you can be even moresuccessful than you were before.
And then I now I work atVerizon, where I'm lucky that I
work in a company that I'm veryproud to work at.
I've been here two and a halfyears and from the very, very
(06:33):
top of the company, Verizondoesn't just talk about
diversity and inclusion butcelebrates it, which is
wonderful.
So I'm very, very pleased to beworking where I am, at Verizon,
after having come across thisjourney about trying not to fit
in but to really express myself.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Sanjiv, thank you so much for sharing.
It's a fascinating story which,interestingly, the piece around
not feeling you fitted in andnot belonging's something I hear
often with very successful CEOsand senior leaders, and it's
(07:09):
almost as if this chip on theshoulder propelled them into the
place that they are becausethey were more attentive, more
attuned to what others weredoing, thinking, saying, feeling
, in order to adapt.
You know, whatever thosecharacteristics they gain from
those early feelings is reallyhelped, albeit, um, there's
(07:32):
nothing worse than, you know,being a youngster and feeling
you don't fit in, especiallywithin the school playground,
which can be terribly cruelsometimes, I'm sure, often you
know, potentially you know morechallenging than being being in
business and because thoseformative years you know,
potentially you know morechallenging than being in
business and because thoseformative years you know and I
remember desperately,desperately wanting to have blue
eyes, blonde hair, wanting tobe like the other white children
(07:55):
in Yorkshire.
So similar but differentexperience to you.
I love the two pivotal momentsin the career that you described
, where you know, you say,modestly, you know, a guy, a
leader, took a punt on me, gaveme an opportunity, but I think
it's really they clearly sawsomething.
And you know, in your work asan advisor, a mentor I'm sure
(08:19):
that's what you're looking at isthese might be individuals,
youngsters, who you, you know,fresh into an organization.
They don't really know how theorganization operates, but you
see something in them, a skill,a talent that often is it's
quite hard to describe in words,but that is talent.
And talent can be seeneverywhere.
And no, you and I've had thisdiscussion around talent being
(08:40):
everywhere, but opportunity notnecessarily and competitive
world of business.
But it sounds like these twopivotal moments in the career
really shaped you and allowedyou to embrace who you really
were.
Um, and like you, I do love thestates and the fact that
generally and I'm totallystereotyping here but the states
love the British accent as well, so I can see the young Sanjeev
(09:04):
leaning into that in his earlycareer yeah, that was really
important because you know youland up in I was in boston the
second time, first time I livedin california and you don't know
anyone.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You just land there and then people recognize you as
being different, and it's okayto be different because you know
it's a country that's grown upfrom, you know, built on
immigration and people from alldifferent backgrounds, and so my
, my difference accent being themost you know, one of the most
obvious obviously, the way Ilook as well in some respects,
accent being the most obvious itwas great to be able to use
that and value that and take itfrom there.
(09:33):
But you, I also think you haveto have, or I've had, people who
believed in you and reallytaken a punt on you.
Like I said and said, you know,I'll give you a chance.
I've seen something.
I'll give you a chance, and Ithink that's what I'd like to do
more of.
I try and do it as well.
Try and talk to the folks whoare here at Verizon, but also at
other companies in the past,not just the people who work for
you directly, but the otherfolks as well and hopefully look
(09:54):
for smart, talented people andtalent comes in all forms.
Like you said, sometimes themost unexpected places are the
best ideas.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So, from that point of view, really try and value
that and bring that forwardAbsolutely.
I love your emphasis placed onholistic diversity, talent
coming in many different forms,be it age, race, religion,
belief, culture, nationality, etcetera, et cetera.
Clearly, diversity, inclusivity, belonging, equity, culture all
(10:29):
these wonderful, rich thingshave really shaped um, you, um,
but tell me how?
How have they shaped if theyhave the path of your leadership
journey, and are there anyinteresting examples that you
remember from your career whereyou think, oh my goodness, that
was a real light bulb moment forme yeah, I think one of them
was.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I worked at a startup .
My some colleagues of mine andmyself.
We started a company in theearly 2000s in boston and um.
We had a leader there, and whatI noticed from her is she would
always be walking around theoffice talking to everyone.
She'd never eat lunch alone,she'd always be talking to
people.
And I was part of her team andI just noticed that you know
(11:12):
just the human interaction, thedialogue, the spending time with
people interested in lifebeyond work.
Those kind of conversations werethe most valuable and that's
where her power was.
Yes, she was smart, she madegood business decisions, but her
power was the conversationwalking down the corridor,
(11:34):
stopping at a booth, havinglunch with folks and moving on.
And that just made her a reallyengaging, dynamic leader and
one who was very accessible andtalked to everyone.
She didn't just talk to hermanagement team, she talked to
everyone.
You know the people we filledin the coffee machine, people
who are, you know, the juniorprogrammers or business analysts
(11:54):
, etc.
And so on, and I think you know, I think that's something which
is worthwhile, I found itworthwhile to try and learn from
, and I'm not the most extrovertperson, so I have to make an
extra effort to do that, but Ithink that was really really
valuable.
The people conversation that'swhat I loved as well.
So I think that's the part thatI really really valued and that
I remember that distinctly,when she used to walk around the
(12:15):
office and do that and she wasreally really good at that and a
really engaging leader.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That's a really great example and I love that you
have a female example there aswell um, who's making small talk
, which is very important talkand, you know, demonstrates for
everyone that actually, this isnot purely a hierarchical state
of play.
Everyone's voice truly mattersand arguably, in the age of ai
and digital transformation andall these kind of things, the
(12:53):
human, the true human touch, isperhaps the most valuable
currency that we can have,because you know side of you
know perhaps Alexa and such,having that emotional
intelligence and that humanconnection is something that we
remember, and it's the famousMaya Angelou quote, isn't it?
Yeah, you always remember howpeople made you feel, but you
forget about the things thatthey said or whatever they may
have been talking about.
Yeah, absolutely, and this leadsme in two really interesting
(13:15):
subjects, actually.
So, first of all, the power ofAI.
And you know, given that youare a tech specialist, at the
heart of it, even though youhave the commercial layer, which
I think is which is excellent.
You know, love to know your,your kind of take and you know,
are you fearful, are you excitedabout this world of AI?
Any watchouts when it comes todiversity?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah one.
I'm an optimist and hopeful forAI because I think it is a
profound opportunity for us andreally, really can be
foundational in the way that weleverage technology every day
for the betterment of us all.
But I do worry about the waythat bias can infiltrate and be
in the data and the way it'strained.
Ai systems are trained on data.
(13:57):
If there's bias in the model,then that bias comes through in
the algorithms and we've I don'tknow if many people, many, many
people have heard about thebias in, I think, a passport
facial recognition in certainpassport algorithms than others
were there in the past, andthat's just a very good example
and a very, you know,straightforward example of how
bias can have a negative impact.
(14:19):
So I think that's importantbecause it can perpetuate or
amplify bias in race, gender,socioeconomic status and other
things which humans obviouslywe're trying to work, you know,
work, work through and talkabout and educate people.
So if that's transmitted in amodel, that can have a massive
negative impact on a scale thatcan be quite significant.
So I think that's the other onewhere that's the bit I worry
(14:40):
about, and so that's whytraining the models, educating
the model, et cetera, and so onwithout bias is important.
And then the other piece is onethics and trust, which is to
make sure that many companieshave principles around the way
they use AI, they haveresponsible AI approaches, and
(15:01):
it's just making sure that thatis embedded deeply into the
culture of any organizationthat's either using AI or
developing its own models, etcetera.
So, yeah, I'm optimistic aboutit, but I do worry about those,
and that's why it's such a topicthat we have to be aware of and
continually raise, because youwant to avoid bias around facial
recognition, around facialrecognition, language processing
(15:24):
, et cetera, and so on.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
It's such a fascinating subject.
I feel very similarly to youoptimistic and excited for the
transformations that it can dofrom you know some of the basics
.
You know, I believe, draftingemails and all these kind of
things AI can do and supportwith, helping, support, menial
admin tasks.
But you know, as you've said,when it comes to things like
(15:46):
facial recognition, given thefact that we know systems say,
let's take racism, for examplebut systems are intrinsically,
you know, systematically racist.
They're built on, say, whiteinfrastructure.
Therefore, that build on, say,white infrastructure.
Therefore, how are we trainingand developing those data sets?
(16:10):
On the one hand, there's anopportunity to revolutionize
efficiency but at the same time,to your point, could bias,
infiltrate data, and I know it'snot the same, but I suppose
there's some similarities.
As I saw I think it was anadvert by Dove at one of our
sessions, fascinating, and itwas talking about the
standardization of beauty.
(16:30):
And you could take that sameprinciple into the
standardization of anything elsedata sets for whatever.
And this model of beauty.
When you typed in beautifulwoman, something, this, it was
this gorgeous, but blonde, slim,blue eyes, everything that I
remember as a girl.
I wanted to be.
It was not the unfiltered,un-airbrushed definition of
(16:55):
beauty.
There was no brown skin, therewas no yellow skin, there was no
different shading there, andyou just thought, oh my goodness
, no wonder.
When you look at you know, likeeven like you know magazines
that we used to have, um, youknow just 17 or whatever they
were.
You know you kind of, you knowyou're upholding yourself to a
standard that you will never be,and that does not mean that you
(17:17):
are not good enough.
It just means thatstandardization, of
westernization are a certainthing I think we've come a long
way since.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Probably I don't know if just 17 is still around, but
we've come a long way sincethen have a thought about just
like a million years.
It's popped into my brain yeah,but I think that that continual,
you know, discussion anddialogue, like like you've been
raising, you know it's soimportant to continue to have
that because if that drops offthe radar then it can be very
(17:46):
easily to sort of fall behindthe wayside and then we'll fall
into this negative world.
So, you know, it's reallyimportant to have the dialogue
and, of course, to make sure weaudit and train data.
We, you know, meant it, webasically um, you know, look at
it and test it, etc.
All these are all these thingspart of ai.
But you're right, we need tokeep.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Fascinating.
I could easily do a wholepodcast with you talking about
this and going really techy,sanju, but I must move on.
Let's talk about mentorship andsponsorship.
It's another fascinatingsubject which you know.
You're a huge advocate for allforms of diversity.
You've supported the women'ssales leadership programs and
you know you've been verysupportive of initiatives that
we have done within the greatercontext of Verizon and you know
you've been very supportive ofinitiatives that we have done
(18:31):
within the greater context ofVerizon.
But talk to me a little bitabout you know the work that you
do around mentorship,sponsorship, the importance of
it and you know, did you have amentor or a sponsor that
impacted you?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, I never really had a mentor in the formal sense
.
You know, I've listened to lotsof leadership, you know
podcasts and books and thingslike that, and they talk about
mentors and so on, and I'm justthinking well, unfortunately, I
never really had a mentor.
I had some great leaders who Itried to learn off and watch and
figure out what they were doinglike the lady I just mentioned
(19:04):
a few moments ago and others butnever really had a mentor, and
so that's why I think it'simportant I never had one.
So I think if there issomething I can do to mentor
others and help them, then I'dlove to be able to do that and
that's what I try and do, youknow, when I can.
So I've been fortunate also towork in environments where, you
know, I've had role models andI've been able to watch them and
(19:26):
learn from them, as opposed tohave mentors.
But I think that dialogue andthat discussion those sort of
just open and frank discussionswhich may not be a mentor
session per se, but it's just adiscussion overall and spending
time listening to people I thinkis really, really important and
being able to just give themsome ideas or prompt the
thinking in there.
(19:47):
And I think that part of whatI've tried to do also is be a
better listener, because youknow, I've been reading this
book called Time to Think, whichI think is by Nancy Klein I
think I may have got that wrong,but I think that's who it's by
and it's also about the qualityof listening improves the
ability for the person who'sspeaking to have better thoughts
and a much richer conversation.
So I've tried to be a betterlistener.
Watch leaders I remember onetime I was working where one
(20:10):
other leader and he was talkingabout group discussions and
would particularly draw everyoneinto the conversation, which is
a basic leadership tactic, buthe would specifically call out
people who are very, very quietor didn't have the confidence
and ability to articulatethemselves.
Not everyone is able to come upwith a great view or a great
opinion right at the outset, sohe would draw in people and ask
(20:31):
them thoughtful questions thatwould bring the best out of them
.
And I think that's another wayof trying to, you know, be more
inclusive and bring the best outof people and mentor them in
some respects.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's a great example, a really great example,
and it makes me think of thisarchetypal definition of what a
good leader looks like.
And you know, if we look at kindof textbooks, it's often those
you know, extra confident peoplewho are very you know, loud,
positive in many ways, but alsoovershadowing those who may well
(21:03):
be just as intelligent, withjust as good thoughts, who are
introverts.
And you know you mentioned atthe beginning you have to work
hard at networking.
It might surprise you that Ialso do.
I need a dark room to go intoafterwards because I am an
introvert perceived as anextrovert and you know,
sometimes you know the voice ofoh, my goodness, will people
(21:24):
laugh at me if I speak up andsay this?
Often, especially for those whoare young in the workplace, who
you know are with senior folks,yeah, there is a bit of a need
to have a confidence boost tospeak up.
So I think that is fantastic andyou know, coming back to our
earlier conversation around theimportance of mentorship,
sponsorship, you know it'sbrilliant that you are doing
this because the power that canbe had in what did you say,
(21:48):
almost reflecting the mirrorback at people to allow them to
reflect more on their ownthoughts, to allow them to
verbalize what they're thinking,to shape further innovation and
help find a solution, it'sreally positive and it's, you
know, something that's oftenused in coaching skills and
techniques.
And you know I, like yourself,have had a mentor and I've had,
(22:11):
you know, a sponsor very muchdown the entrepreneurial path.
But I have had an executivecoach whom I, you know, invested
in myself to do that andsomething that I highly highly
recommend because, absolutely,you know, I feel a very
different person.
You know, six months fromhaving that exec coach.
I hugely advocate for it and dosome of the executive coaching
(22:36):
myself, because the power ofself-reflection, but with
someone who's on your side, safespace, can be a real game
changer.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, I think that's what many people need.
Is that because a coach doesn'ttell you what to do?
A coach draws out the best fromyou by just asking you a few
questions and sometimes justsaying nothing at all, and
letting you sort of process thethoughts in your head and then
outcomes, perhaps the answer ora path forward, and I think
that's the value in somethinglike that, and that's a lot of
(23:01):
good leader does as well, andalso one who can, you know,
recognize different types ofpeople in the room the outspoken
one, the quiet one, the one whojust you know isn't paying
attention perhaps and bring themall into the conversation and
recognize that I'm chucklingthere because, as you were
talking that through, I'menvisaging teams and I'm sure
those who are listening andthinking are.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I know exactly who that is.
He's not listening.
I know the one who's quiet.
I know the one who will alwaysspeak out, but sometimes, um, we
need to make room for othervoices to be heard.
Exactly, very good.
So, finishing on some lighternotes, I've got to ask you a
couple of quickfire questions.
I'm going to give you maybe 30seconds to answer, but tell me
what are your secrets to success?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I guess secrets to success?
No secrets, but I think one ofthe things I've tried to learn
is seek to understand beforejudging or answering.
And that would be one.
Second one be nice.
It's okay to be nice.
Nice people are good.
We need more of those.
I think that's important.
Don't ask others to do what youwouldn't do yourself.
I think is another one whichI've learned, and I think you
(24:04):
said it.
You're not as dumb as you thinkyou are.
You didn't say those words, butI think it's about you know.
Asking the silly question isokay and it's okay to say I
don't understand that.
Could you just tell me anotherway?
I think that's important, andthose would be probably the poor
few, I think yes, indeed, andguaranteed.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I mean, if you ever had that moment when someone
asked the question, you werethinking, do I, don't I?
You're kind of, you know,certainly at school you're
partially way through puttingyour hand up.
You don't want to do it.
Someone asked anyway.
So clearly other people arethinking exactly what you were.
You would just questionyourself a little bit more than
they were.
But they're being nice, that'sa great one.
No one's ever said that.
Actually no one has ever saidthat in the history of the
(24:43):
podcast.
Which amazing it is sounderrated.
I think again, this wholestereotype.
I know we talked a lot aboutstereotypes and, you know,
inadvertently, today in podcasts, but you know people always say
there's kind of this wholestereotype.
I know we talked a lot aboutstereotypes and, you know,
inadvertently, today in podcasts, but, and people always say
there's kind of this whole niceguy, nice girl finishes last and
I've never really got that.
I've been criticized for beingtoo nice on a cake and there's
times where I've thought, oh mygoodness, have I been too nice
(25:06):
and I've been too soft and, youknow, been taken advantage of as
as a leader or whatever.
But it costs nothing to be nice, does it?
And you never know what someonemay be going through.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you're right, itdoesn't cost anything.
People remember how you makethem feel that I'll quote you
mentioned.
But also, being nice doesn'tmean not being open, honest and
straight and plain.
Talk about something, a topicto both, and it doesn't mean you
have you know.
That's where I think peoplesometimes get confused.
So be nice, but also be open,honest and straight about the
(25:39):
way things are.
And yeah, you have to maketough decisions sometimes and do
that, but that's okay.
But as long as you're open andhonest about it, people get it.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Any advice that you might give to your younger self
or any advice that you give toyour sons that you wish you'd
thought of yourself when youwere that age.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I think one is you don't ask, you don't get.
Which is one.
And then the other one Iprobably would be you get out
what you put in.
I know these are all clichés,but you get out what you put in,
or you reap what you sow.
So put in the hard yards, itpays.
I'm trying to be a betterlistener.
I guess I would say to myyounger self I think I put the
effort in.
I think is the one thing Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
They are excellent.
The Timeless Classics andcliche or not I heard the other
day cliches actually, most ofthem are true and I thought
that's absolutely true.
It absolutely is.
Whichever generation we are in,we're saying something similar
and it is it's generation we arein.
We're saying something similarand it is it's.
You know, it's hard work beatstalent when talent doesn't work
hard.
Ultimately, um, and weabsolutely must listen, because
(26:38):
if we don't understand, how canwe come up with a solution?
If it is a customer, how can wemake the problem better?
If it is, um, you knowsomething which is internal,
many, many reasons, um, youabsolutely can't go wrong with
those things.
And I'm still yet to meetsomeone who reasons, um, you
absolutely can't go wrong withthose things.
And I'm still yet to meetsomeone who hasn't put in effort
to get where they are, unlessperhaps they're playing it down.
I'm yet to meet someone.
(26:59):
So I don't think truly, thereare really any shortcut.
Yeah, you have to do the hardyards, I think, and put the
effort in, because it'll pay anyfinal words of wisdom and
reasons that people should jointhe ceo activist council which,
um, I think one thing I reallyget from the meetings that you
know- the privilege to join aview of yours is really the
(27:22):
different kind of backgroundsthat people have.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, whether I'm sitting next to someone who is
an ex-policeman, to someone elsewho's run a multi-million pound
business but now is doingsomething which has given back
to community, or whether I'msitting next to someone who is a
lecturer, it's a very diversegroup and I think it's an
opportunity to learn from othersas well as an opportunity to
(27:47):
perhaps just give a few of yourthoughts as well.
So we're more alike than we aredifferent, and that's not
always obvious on the outsideand the way people act and
behave.
So I think once you getpeople's beyond people's
exterior, there are manysimilarities and it's just fun
to meet lots of other people whoyou know share a common
interest and also we just comefrom different backgrounds.
So that's what I really likeabout you know the CEOist
(28:15):
council that you put together.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Thank you, sanjeev.
Well, um, it's been a brilliant, brilliant conversation today.
Where to start to summarize,but, um, you know many learning
points, from importance ofadvocacy, mentorship, interest
around the future of technologyand ai, and that we must must be
careful when it comes to ourbiases, but also reflecting on
(28:39):
those pivotal moments of our ownleadership journeys.
Sometimes it's easy to thinkabout how far there is up the
mountain to go versus thinkingdo you know what?
That person gave me a chance atthat point, what a great
opportunity that's helped me getto this other pivotal point in
my leadership journey.
Opportunity that's helped meget to this other pivotal point
in my leadership journey.
And you know, finally, the piecethat's really resonated and
come out very much is thisintrinsic need for belonging.
(29:02):
It's something that we need ashumans.
It goes through to our very dna.
And utilizing and understandingourselves as being different,
but positively showcasing thatversus hiding it away because we
can't be anyone else ultimately.
So utilizing some of thosegreat skills that we have and
leaning into authenticity.
(29:23):
Really, it's been an absolutepleasure, sanjeev.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, thank you very much.
It's been fun.
I enjoyed it.
Thanks a lot.
It's great to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Thanks, sanjeev.
My name is LailaMackenzie-Dellis.
I'm founder CEO of Dial Global.
You've been listening to theCEO Activist Podcast today.
Make sure you subscribe.
You check out the show notesfrom today's show.
We'll make sure we put all ofthose in there.
We've been joined by brilliantSanjeev Gossain from Verizon.
You can visit us atwwwdarglobalorg forward slash
(29:55):
podcast or any of your favoritepodcast channels Apple, spotify,
you name it.
Find us on there, hit subscribeand we will look forward to
seeing you again very soon.
Hello and welcome to a special podcast series called
the CEO Activist.
On this series, I have theopportunity to meet with and
interview inspirational andforward-thinking CEOs and senior
executives who have a realagency and interest in driving
business for good, often throughutilization of inclusion as a
(00:31):
commercial lever for economicgrowth and prosperity.
Today, I'm joined by a fabulousindividual.
His name is Sanjiv Ghosain.
He is the general manager andhead of EMEA for Rise on
Business.
He's been at the firm since2022, and he has overall
responsibility for theorganization's global enterprise
business in the EMEA region.
(00:52):
He's had a huge amount ofinternational experience, having
lived in America for over adecade and working for globally
recognized firms such asCognizant.
He's also an advisor and amentor, an advocate and an ally.
He's recently learned hisexpertise to celebrating women
in sales, of which many of theVerizon women were very proudly
(01:13):
named as a final piece.
And Sanjiv I'm sure you'll tellme off for saying this, but
Sanjiv is actually a publishedauthor and he holds a board
directorship from HenleyBusiness School.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
author and he holds a board directorship from Henley
Business School.
Welcome, Sanjib.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Well, thank you very much, Leila Nice, to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
So let's go right back to thebeginning.
Tell us a little bit about you,how you came to be where you
are today, whether you sawyourself in this role and all
the great things that led you tothis place.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Sure, so let me start back, if that's okay.
When I when we came to thiscountry because I live in
England and my parents came toEngland when I was four years
old and when my father andmother moved here and then they
decided to stay here when I wasa small child of four and really
grew up here in the UK and Ithink that was quite informative
(02:09):
and educational for me, becausewhen I came in here my English
was limited at the time and Iwas really it was tough to fit
in.
I'm talking early 70s here, sothe 1970s in the UK.
You know there were differentchallenges around growing up as
an immigrant.
It's changed a lot since then,but back then it was quite
(02:30):
challenging at times, quitedifficult at times, but I was
always trying to fit in.
I think at that time I grew upin West London.
My high school was quitediverse.
Actually I was quite lucky inthat respect.
We had people from all types ofbackgrounds white working class
, people from the Caribbean,other folks from Indian
subcontinent, other kids my agefrom Poland, greece, who all
(02:52):
grew up here.
So it was quite a melting pot.
So that was really reallyfortunate, but I really tried to
fit in and be like others, andthat was a characteristic, I
would say, of still.
I was in my in my teens andmaybe in late teens and early
20s, perhaps always trying tofit in and trying to make sure
that I was accepted, becausethat was one of the challenges.
(03:14):
As you grow up here.
You have certain incidents, youknow, racial incidents etc and
so on, as I had back then, andthat made it challenging to try
and fit in and belong.
I was educated as an engineer,as the software engineer in in
university in colchester andessex, and uh did uh bachelor's
and master's and phd there.
So I came from a technicalbackground and I saw myself as
(03:37):
an engineer.
But I was never a really abackroom engineer.
I was always in the frontoffice, so to speak, trying to
get stuff done with with people,trying to really understand how
it can help business and thebusiness implication of it.
And I think that's how I becamea leader in the business area.
I had a gentleman in my earlydays at Cognizant who took a
(04:00):
punt on me and said why don'tyou move from being a technical
person to being a businessleader?
And that really, really helpedme, because then I was able to
become a business leader andtherefore grow considerably,
working at that greatorganization, really taking on
more leadership responsibilities.
So that was really reallyimportant for me and influential
.
And I think also, if I'mfitting in, then I'm suppressing
(04:25):
what I have to offer, and Ithink the gentleman who gave me
that opportunity he reallyreally opened my eyes to that.
I said don't try and fit in,just be who you are and really
let your inner self shinethrough, and I think that's what
was really really important forme.
Then what happened after thatwas after I was at Cognizant for
a number of years.
I was able to grow the businessthere, leaving the UK, running
(04:46):
our global telecom business,running a digital business, etc.
And I think that was a veryformative time for me and it was
a company which really reallybrought the best out of people
in the way that we are able toexpress ourselves, we are able
to work very collaborativelywith customers, really really be
at the leading forefront ofsoftware development and
(05:09):
engineering, et cetera, and soon.
I was also lucky to live in theUS for a number of years.
I worked there with a number ofpeople and I think that really
shaped my background as well andmy outlook, because in the US I
found a little bit easier towork there than I did in the UK.
In fact, I found that peoplewere really I was different, I
(05:31):
had an English accent, I livedin the US and so that was really
quite interesting, because thenI was different and people
valued my difference and so Iwas even in a better way to
express that I was different andreally let that shine through,
and I think that really helpedme as I was moving forward.
Better way to express that Iwas different and really let
that shine through, and I thinkthat really helped me as I was
moving forward.
(05:52):
I worked for a gentleman therein a different company Cambridge
Technology Partners at the timewho really really again placed
a bet on me and said you know,I'd like you to take on this
global CTO role, which I did,and that really really helped
because I was able to then growagain as a leader through
another great company, whichreally helped formulate my
professional artwork etc.
So it's been a combination ofthings really of trying to fit
in and then realizing that youdon't want to suppress who you
(06:13):
are but bring out your best inyou and then really really other
people recognize it and thenthey can really really value it
and you can be even moresuccessful than you were before.
And then I now I work atVerizon, where I'm lucky that I
work in a company that I'm veryproud to work at.
I've been here two and a halfyears and from the very, very
(06:33):
top of the company, Verizondoesn't just talk about
diversity and inclusion butcelebrates it, which is
wonderful.
So I'm very, very pleased to beworking where I am, at Verizon,
after having come across thisjourney about trying not to fit
in but to really express myself.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Sanjiv, thank you so much for sharing.
It's a fascinating story which,interestingly, the piece around
not feeling you fitted in andnot belonging's something I hear
often with very successful CEOsand senior leaders, and it's
(07:09):
almost as if this chip on theshoulder propelled them into the
place that they are becausethey were more attentive, more
attuned to what others weredoing, thinking, saying, feeling
, in order to adapt.
You know, whatever thosecharacteristics they gain from
those early feelings is reallyhelped, albeit, um, there's
(07:32):
nothing worse than, you know,being a youngster and feeling
you don't fit in, especiallywithin the school playground,
which can be terribly cruelsometimes, I'm sure, often you
know, potentially you know morechallenging than being being in
business and because thoseformative years you know,
potentially you know morechallenging than being in
business and because thoseformative years you know and I
remember desperately,desperately wanting to have blue
eyes, blonde hair, wanting tobe like the other white children
(07:55):
in Yorkshire.
So similar but differentexperience to you.
I love the two pivotal momentsin the career that you described
, where you know, you say,modestly, you know, a guy, a
leader, took a punt on me, gaveme an opportunity, but I think
it's really they clearly sawsomething.
And you know, in your work asan advisor, a mentor I'm sure
(08:19):
that's what you're looking at isthese might be individuals,
youngsters, who you, you know,fresh into an organization.
They don't really know how theorganization operates, but you
see something in them, a skill,a talent that often is it's
quite hard to describe in words,but that is talent.
And talent can be seeneverywhere.
And no, you and I've had thisdiscussion around talent being
(08:40):
everywhere, but opportunity notnecessarily and competitive
world of business.
But it sounds like these twopivotal moments in the career
really shaped you and allowedyou to embrace who you really
were.
Um, and like you, I do love thestates and the fact that
generally and I'm totallystereotyping here but the states
love the British accent as well, so I can see the young Sanjeev
(09:04):
leaning into that in his earlycareer yeah, that was really
important because you know youland up in I was in boston the
second time, first time I livedin california and you don't know
anyone.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
You just land there and then people recognize you as
being different, and it's okayto be different because you know
it's a country that's grown upfrom, you know, built on
immigration and people from alldifferent backgrounds, and so my
, my difference accent being themost you know, one of the most
obvious obviously, the way Ilook as well in some respects,
accent being the most obvious itwas great to be able to use
that and value that and take itfrom there.
(09:33):
But you, I also think you haveto have, or I've had, people who
believed in you and reallytaken a punt on you.
Like I said and said, you know,I'll give you a chance.
I've seen something.
I'll give you a chance, and Ithink that's what I'd like to do
more of.
I try and do it as well.
Try and talk to the folks whoare here at Verizon, but also at
other companies in the past,not just the people who work for
you directly, but the otherfolks as well and hopefully look
(09:54):
for smart, talented people andtalent comes in all forms.
Like you said, sometimes themost unexpected places are the
best ideas.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So, from that point of view, really try and value
that and bring that forwardAbsolutely.
I love your emphasis placed onholistic diversity, talent
coming in many different forms,be it age, race, religion,
belief, culture, nationality, etcetera, et cetera.
Clearly, diversity, inclusivity, belonging, equity, culture all
(10:29):
these wonderful, rich thingshave really shaped um, you, um,
but tell me how?
How have they shaped if theyhave the path of your leadership
journey, and are there anyinteresting examples that you
remember from your career whereyou think, oh my goodness, that
was a real light bulb moment forme yeah, I think one of them
was.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I worked at a startup .
My some colleagues of mine andmyself.
We started a company in theearly 2000s in boston and um.
We had a leader there, and whatI noticed from her is she would
always be walking around theoffice talking to everyone.
She'd never eat lunch alone,she'd always be talking to
people.
And I was part of her team andI just noticed that you know
(11:12):
just the human interaction, thedialogue, the spending time with
people interested in lifebeyond work.
Those kind of conversations werethe most valuable and that's
where her power was.
Yes, she was smart, she madegood business decisions, but her
power was the conversationwalking down the corridor,
(11:34):
stopping at a booth, havinglunch with folks and moving on.
And that just made her a reallyengaging, dynamic leader and
one who was very accessible andtalked to everyone.
She didn't just talk to hermanagement team, she talked to
everyone.
You know the people we filledin the coffee machine, people
who are, you know, the juniorprogrammers or business analysts
(11:54):
, etc.
And so on, and I think you know, I think that's something which
is worthwhile, I found itworthwhile to try and learn from
, and I'm not the most extrovertperson, so I have to make an
extra effort to do that, but Ithink that was really really
valuable.
The people conversation that'swhat I loved as well.
So I think that's the part thatI really really valued and that
I remember that distinctly,when she used to walk around the
(12:15):
office and do that and she wasreally really good at that and a
really engaging leader.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
That's a really great example and I love that you
have a female example there aswell um, who's making small talk
, which is very important talkand, you know, demonstrates for
everyone that actually, this isnot purely a hierarchical state
of play.
Everyone's voice truly mattersand arguably, in the age of ai
and digital transformation andall these kind of things, the
(12:53):
human, the true human touch, isperhaps the most valuable
currency that we can have,because you know side of you
know perhaps Alexa and such,having that emotional
intelligence and that humanconnection is something that we
remember, and it's the famousMaya Angelou quote, isn't it?
Yeah, you always remember howpeople made you feel, but you
forget about the things thatthey said or whatever they may
have been talking about.
Yeah, absolutely, and this leadsme in two really interesting
(13:15):
subjects, actually.
So, first of all, the power ofAI.
And you know, given that youare a tech specialist, at the
heart of it, even though youhave the commercial layer, which
I think is which is excellent.
You know, love to know your,your kind of take and you know,
are you fearful, are you excitedabout this world of AI?
Any watchouts when it comes todiversity?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Yeah one.
I'm an optimist and hopeful forAI because I think it is a
profound opportunity for us andreally, really can be
foundational in the way that weleverage technology every day
for the betterment of us all.
But I do worry about the waythat bias can infiltrate and be
in the data and the way it'strained.
Ai systems are trained on data.
(13:57):
If there's bias in the model,then that bias comes through in
the algorithms and we've I don'tknow if many people, many, many
people have heard about thebias in, I think, a passport
facial recognition in certainpassport algorithms than others
were there in the past, andthat's just a very good example
and a very, you know,straightforward example of how
bias can have a negative impact.
(14:19):
So I think that's importantbecause it can perpetuate or
amplify bias in race, gender,socioeconomic status and other
things which humans obviouslywe're trying to work, you know,
work, work through and talkabout and educate people.
So if that's transmitted in amodel, that can have a massive
negative impact on a scale thatcan be quite significant.
So I think that's the other onewhere that's the bit I worry
(14:40):
about, and so that's whytraining the models, educating
the model, et cetera, and so onwithout bias is important.
And then the other piece is onethics and trust, which is to
make sure that many companieshave principles around the way
they use AI, they haveresponsible AI approaches, and
(15:01):
it's just making sure that thatis embedded deeply into the
culture of any organizationthat's either using AI or
developing its own models, etcetera.
So, yeah, I'm optimistic aboutit, but I do worry about those,
and that's why it's such a topicthat we have to be aware of and
continually raise, because youwant to avoid bias around facial
recognition, around facialrecognition, language processing
(15:24):
, et cetera, and so on.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
It's such a fascinating subject.
I feel very similarly to youoptimistic and excited for the
transformations that it can dofrom you know some of the basics
.
You know, I believe, draftingemails and all these kind of
things AI can do and supportwith, helping, support, menial
admin tasks.
But you know, as you've said,when it comes to things like
(15:46):
facial recognition, given thefact that we know systems say,
let's take racism, for examplebut systems are intrinsically,
you know, systematically racist.
They're built on, say, whiteinfrastructure.
Therefore, that build on, say,white infrastructure.
Therefore, how are we trainingand developing those data sets?
(16:10):
On the one hand, there's anopportunity to revolutionize
efficiency but at the same time,to your point, could bias,
infiltrate data, and I know it'snot the same, but I suppose
there's some similarities.
As I saw I think it was anadvert by Dove at one of our
sessions, fascinating, and itwas talking about the
standardization of beauty.
(16:30):
And you could take that sameprinciple into the
standardization of anything elsedata sets for whatever.
And this model of beauty.
When you typed in beautifulwoman, something, this, it was
this gorgeous, but blonde, slim,blue eyes, everything that I
remember as a girl.
I wanted to be.
It was not the unfiltered,un-airbrushed definition of
(16:55):
beauty.
There was no brown skin, therewas no yellow skin, there was no
different shading there, andyou just thought, oh my goodness
, no wonder.
When you look at you know, likeeven like you know magazines
that we used to have, um, youknow just 17 or whatever they
were.
You know you kind of, you knowyou're upholding yourself to a
standard that you will never be,and that does not mean that you
(17:17):
are not good enough.
It just means thatstandardization, of
westernization are a certainthing I think we've come a long
way since.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Probably I don't know if just 17 is still around, but
we've come a long way sincethen have a thought about just
like a million years.
It's popped into my brain yeah,but I think that that continual,
you know, discussion anddialogue, like like you've been
raising, you know it's soimportant to continue to have
that because if that drops offthe radar then it can be very
(17:46):
easily to sort of fall behindthe wayside and then we'll fall
into this negative world.
So, you know, it's reallyimportant to have the dialogue
and, of course, to make sure weaudit and train data.
We, you know, meant it, webasically um, you know, look at
it and test it, etc.
All these are all these thingspart of ai.
But you're right, we need tokeep.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Fascinating.
I could easily do a wholepodcast with you talking about
this and going really techy,sanju, but I must move on.
Let's talk about mentorship andsponsorship.
It's another fascinatingsubject which you know.
You're a huge advocate for allforms of diversity.
You've supported the women'ssales leadership programs and
you know you've been verysupportive of initiatives that
we have done within the greatercontext of Verizon and you know
you've been very supportive ofinitiatives that we have done
(18:31):
within the greater context ofVerizon.
But talk to me a little bitabout you know the work that you
do around mentorship,sponsorship, the importance of
it and you know, did you have amentor or a sponsor that
impacted you?
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah, I never really had a mentor in the formal sense
.
You know, I've listened to lotsof leadership, you know
podcasts and books and thingslike that, and they talk about
mentors and so on, and I'm justthinking well, unfortunately, I
never really had a mentor.
I had some great leaders who Itried to learn off and watch and
figure out what they were doinglike the lady I just mentioned
(19:04):
a few moments ago and others butnever really had a mentor, and
so that's why I think it'simportant I never had one.
So I think if there issomething I can do to mentor
others and help them, then I'dlove to be able to do that and
that's what I try and do, youknow, when I can.
So I've been fortunate also towork in environments where, you
know, I've had role models andI've been able to watch them and
(19:26):
learn from them, as opposed tohave mentors.
But I think that dialogue andthat discussion those sort of
just open and frank discussionswhich may not be a mentor
session per se, but it's just adiscussion overall and spending
time listening to people I thinkis really, really important and
being able to just give themsome ideas or prompt the
thinking in there.
(19:47):
And I think that part of whatI've tried to do also is be a
better listener, because youknow, I've been reading this
book called Time to Think, whichI think is by Nancy Klein I
think I may have got that wrong,but I think that's who it's by
and it's also about the qualityof listening improves the
ability for the person who'sspeaking to have better thoughts
and a much richer conversation.
So I've tried to be a betterlistener.
Watch leaders I remember onetime I was working where one
(20:10):
other leader and he was talkingabout group discussions and
would particularly draw everyoneinto the conversation, which is
a basic leadership tactic, buthe would specifically call out
people who are very, very quietor didn't have the confidence
and ability to articulatethemselves.
Not everyone is able to come upwith a great view or a great
opinion right at the outset, sohe would draw in people and ask
(20:31):
them thoughtful questions thatwould bring the best out of them
.
And I think that's another wayof trying to, you know, be more
inclusive and bring the best outof people and mentor them in
some respects.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
That's a great example, a really great example,
and it makes me think of thisarchetypal definition of what a
good leader looks like.
And you know, if we look at kindof textbooks, it's often those
you know, extra confident peoplewho are very you know, loud,
positive in many ways, but alsoovershadowing those who may well
(21:03):
be just as intelligent, withjust as good thoughts, who are
introverts.
And you know you mentioned atthe beginning you have to work
hard at networking.
It might surprise you that Ialso do.
I need a dark room to go intoafterwards because I am an
introvert perceived as anextrovert and you know,
sometimes you know the voice ofoh, my goodness, will people
(21:24):
laugh at me if I speak up andsay this?
Often, especially for those whoare young in the workplace, who
you know are with senior folks,yeah, there is a bit of a need
to have a confidence boost tospeak up.
So I think that is fantastic andyou know, coming back to our
earlier conversation around theimportance of mentorship,
sponsorship, you know it'sbrilliant that you are doing
this because the power that canbe had in what did you say,
(21:48):
almost reflecting the mirrorback at people to allow them to
reflect more on their ownthoughts, to allow them to
verbalize what they're thinking,to shape further innovation and
help find a solution, it'sreally positive and it's, you
know, something that's oftenused in coaching skills and
techniques.
And you know I, like yourself,have had a mentor and I've had,
(22:11):
you know, a sponsor very muchdown the entrepreneurial path.
But I have had an executivecoach whom I, you know, invested
in myself to do that andsomething that I highly highly
recommend because, absolutely,you know, I feel a very
different person.
You know, six months fromhaving that exec coach.
I hugely advocate for it and dosome of the executive coaching
(22:36):
myself, because the power ofself-reflection, but with
someone who's on your side, safespace, can be a real game
changer.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, I think that's what many people need.
Is that because a coach doesn'ttell you what to do?
A coach draws out the best fromyou by just asking you a few
questions and sometimes justsaying nothing at all, and
letting you sort of process thethoughts in your head and then
outcomes, perhaps the answer ora path forward, and I think
that's the value in somethinglike that, and that's a lot of
(23:01):
good leader does as well, andalso one who can, you know,
recognize different types ofpeople in the room the outspoken
one, the quiet one, the one whojust you know isn't paying
attention perhaps and bring themall into the conversation and
recognize that I'm chucklingthere because, as you were
talking that through, I'menvisaging teams and I'm sure
those who are listening andthinking are.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
I know exactly who that is.
He's not listening.
I know the one who's quiet.
I know the one who will alwaysspeak out, but sometimes, um, we
need to make room for othervoices to be heard.
Exactly, very good.
So, finishing on some lighternotes, I've got to ask you a
couple of quickfire questions.
I'm going to give you maybe 30seconds to answer, but tell me
what are your secrets to success?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I guess secrets to success?
No secrets, but I think one ofthe things I've tried to learn
is seek to understand beforejudging or answering.
And that would be one.
Second one be nice.
It's okay to be nice.
Nice people are good.
We need more of those.
I think that's important.
Don't ask others to do what youwouldn't do yourself.
I think is another one whichI've learned, and I think you
(24:04):
said it.
You're not as dumb as you thinkyou are.
You didn't say those words, butI think it's about you know.
Asking the silly question isokay and it's okay to say I
don't understand that.
Could you just tell me anotherway?
I think that's important, andthose would be probably the poor
few, I think yes, indeed, andguaranteed.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
I mean, if you ever had that moment when someone
asked the question, you werethinking, do I, don't I?
You're kind of, you know,certainly at school you're
partially way through puttingyour hand up.
You don't want to do it.
Someone asked anyway.
So clearly other people arethinking exactly what you were.
You would just questionyourself a little bit more than
they were.
But they're being nice, that'sa great one.
No one's ever said that.
Actually no one has ever saidthat in the history of the
(24:43):
podcast.
Which amazing it is sounderrated.
I think again, this wholestereotype.
I know we talked a lot aboutstereotypes and, you know,
inadvertently, today in podcasts, but you know people always say
there's kind of this wholestereotype.
I know we talked a lot aboutstereotypes and, you know,
inadvertently, today in podcasts, but, and people always say
there's kind of this whole niceguy, nice girl finishes last and
I've never really got that.
I've been criticized for beingtoo nice on a cake and there's
times where I've thought, oh mygoodness, have I been too nice
(25:06):
and I've been too soft and, youknow, been taken advantage of as
as a leader or whatever.
But it costs nothing to be nice, does it?
And you never know what someonemay be going through.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think you're right, itdoesn't cost anything.
People remember how you makethem feel that I'll quote you
mentioned.
But also, being nice doesn'tmean not being open, honest and
straight and plain.
Talk about something, a topicto both, and it doesn't mean you
have you know.
That's where I think peoplesometimes get confused.
So be nice, but also be open,honest and straight about the
(25:39):
way things are.
And yeah, you have to maketough decisions sometimes and do
that, but that's okay.
But as long as you're open andhonest about it, people get it.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Any advice that you might give to your younger self
or any advice that you give toyour sons that you wish you'd
thought of yourself when youwere that age.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
I think one is you don't ask, you don't get.
Which is one.
And then the other one Iprobably would be you get out
what you put in.
I know these are all clichés,but you get out what you put in,
or you reap what you sow.
So put in the hard yards, itpays.
I'm trying to be a betterlistener.
I guess I would say to myyounger self I think I put the
effort in.
I think is the one thing Iwould say.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
They are excellent.
The Timeless Classics andcliche or not I heard the other
day cliches actually, most ofthem are true and I thought
that's absolutely true.
It absolutely is.
Whichever generation we are in,we're saying something similar
and it is it's generation we arein.
We're saying something similarand it is it's.
You know, it's hard work beatstalent when talent doesn't work
hard.
Ultimately, um, and weabsolutely must listen, because
(26:38):
if we don't understand, how canwe come up with a solution?
If it is a customer, how can wemake the problem better?
If it is, um, you knowsomething which is internal,
many, many reasons, um, youabsolutely can't go wrong with
those things.
And I'm still yet to meetsomeone who reasons, um, you
absolutely can't go wrong withthose things.
And I'm still yet to meetsomeone who hasn't put in effort
to get where they are, unlessperhaps they're playing it down.
I'm yet to meet someone.
(26:59):
So I don't think truly, thereare really any shortcut.
Yeah, you have to do the hardyards, I think, and put the
effort in, because it'll pay anyfinal words of wisdom and
reasons that people should jointhe ceo activist council which,
um, I think one thing I reallyget from the meetings that you
know- the privilege to join aview of yours is really the
(27:22):
different kind of backgroundsthat people have.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
You know, whether I'm sitting next to someone who is
an ex-policeman, to someone elsewho's run a multi-million pound
business but now is doingsomething which has given back
to community, or whether I'msitting next to someone who is a
lecturer, it's a very diversegroup and I think it's an
opportunity to learn from othersas well as an opportunity to
(27:47):
perhaps just give a few of yourthoughts as well.
So we're more alike than we aredifferent, and that's not
always obvious on the outsideand the way people act and
behave.
So I think once you getpeople's beyond people's
exterior, there are manysimilarities and it's just fun
to meet lots of other people whoyou know share a common
interest and also we just comefrom different backgrounds.
So that's what I really likeabout you know the CEOist
(28:15):
council that you put together.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Thank you, sanjeev.
Well, um, it's been a brilliant, brilliant conversation today.
Where to start to summarize,but, um, you know many learning
points, from importance ofadvocacy, mentorship, interest
around the future of technologyand ai, and that we must must be
careful when it comes to ourbiases, but also reflecting on
(28:39):
those pivotal moments of our ownleadership journeys.
Sometimes it's easy to thinkabout how far there is up the
mountain to go versus thinkingdo you know what?
That person gave me a chance atthat point, what a great
opportunity that's helped me getto this other pivotal point in
my leadership journey.
Opportunity that's helped meget to this other pivotal point
in my leadership journey.
And you know, finally, the piecethat's really resonated and
come out very much is thisintrinsic need for belonging.
(29:02):
It's something that we need ashumans.
It goes through to our very dna.
And utilizing and understandingourselves as being different,
but positively showcasing thatversus hiding it away because we
can't be anyone else ultimately.
So utilizing some of thosegreat skills that we have and
leaning into authenticity.
(29:23):
Really, it's been an absolutepleasure, sanjeev.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, thank you very much.
It's been fun.
I enjoyed it.
Thanks a lot.
It's great to talk to you again.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Thanks, sanjeev.
My name is LailaMackenzie-Dellis.
I'm founder CEO of Dial Global.
You've been listening to theCEO Activist Podcast today.
Make sure you subscribe.
You check out the show notesfrom today's show.
We'll make sure we put all ofthose in there.
We've been joined by brilliantSanjeev Gossain from Verizon.
You can visit us atwwwdarglobalorg forward slash
(29:55):
podcast or any of your favoritepodcast channels Apple, spotify,
you name it.
Find us on there, hit subscribeand we will look forward to
seeing you again very soon.
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