August 26, 2024 • 26 mins
Exciting times ahead as we kick off a brand-new series on our Assurance in Action podcast, diving deep into a topic that's gaining immense popularity—Vegan Food!
Join our host for this episode, Patrick McNamara, as he explores the latest trends in veganism, from allergen management and global labeling standards to how different regions around the world are embracing plant-based lifestyles.
Speakers:
- John Points from IFST discusses Vegan Claims.
- Vicky Kusnierz talks about Global Labeling.
- Kerim Ersin leads a fascinating ‘Round the World’ discussion on the rise of veganism in Turkey.
#DidYouKnow our Turkey Team was the first country to adopt the Intertek Vegan program. Tune in to learn more!
Visit our website to learn more about our Vegan Food Programme
Follow us on- Intertek's Assurance In Action || Twitter || LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Refaya Zaman Priya (00:10):
Hello and welcome to Assurance and
Action, the podcast where weexplore the latest trends and
insights in the world of foodsafety, quality, and
sustainability. This is RefayaZaman Priya , the global social
media marketing manager forIntertek Business Assurance
Food Services, and Caleb Brett.
(00:31):
Today we are kicking off atexciting new series on a topic
that's gaining immensepopularity and importance ,
vegan food. And this firstepisode we'll be diving deep
into various aspects of veganfood, from allergen management
to global labeling standards,and even a special segment on
how different regions aroundthe world are embracing
(00:54):
veganism. Our host for thisepisode is Patrick McNamara,
global Innovations and QualityManager for Food Services, who
will be guiding us throughtoday's discussions with our
expert guests. Let's getstarted. To kick off our
conversation, Patrick will bespeaking with John Points , who
(01:15):
will shed light on the criticalaspects of allergen management
and vegan claims. Here'sPatrick with the first segment.
Enjoy .
Patrick McNamara (01:24):
Hello everyone. Now, one of the
recent areas of focus for foodsmaking vegan claims has been on
allergen labeling and researchshows that many people consider
vegan foods to be safe forconsumers with allergies to
dairy or egg proteins, forexample. But can the claims of
(01:46):
vegan and free from be treatedequally? How much risk is there
to allergic to consumers fromthis perception? And what does
the law actually demand? Now toguide us through some of the
key parts of this topic I havewith me, independent food
consultant and scientific chairof the IFST John Points .
(02:08):
Welcome, John.
John Points (02:10):
Thanks, pat.
Patrick McNamara (02:11):
It's a pleasure to have you with us.
Um , if we could start thenperhaps on the legal position ,
um, what is the current legalposition on making a vegan
claim?
John Points (02:23):
Well , basically the , the , the legal position
is, is a claim shouldn't,shouldn't mislead consumers.
And , and that's the law inEurope and the uk, but there's
no, there's no , um, specificdefinition of vegan. So, so
people understand vegan is notcontaining animal derived
ingredients. Um, there's theclaim vegan, there are
(02:47):
additionally kite mark schemes,for example, the vegan society
of the UK, where, wherecompanies could apply to and
get a kite mark on their food.
But it's been approved by thevegan society. But those are
private schemes for commercialschemes effectively. It's not a
yeah , it's not a illegal.
Patrick McNamara (03:03):
Yeah, no, I , I understand. So the schemes
themselves may have adefinition Yeah. But there's no
regulation that defines Yeah .
Vegan in, in the uk. Um, it'sinteresting, as I alluded to in
the introduction, there was a ugov survey run in the UK in
January of this year, and thatsurvey showed that 72% of
(03:24):
participants believe that veganfood doesn't contain any
ingredients derived fromanimals, therefore making it
safe for individuals withallergies. But how dangerous
might that misconception ofvegan labeling be , um, when
they're equating it withallergen labeling, which is
really about food safety?
John Points (03:45):
Yeah, I mean, I , I think probably the issue is
people don't appreciate thatthe detail and the work and the
, and the governance that goesbehind make it a free from
claim. Uh, so, so people withallergies, it , it could be
tiny amounts that, that triggerthe allergy. So rather than an
ingredient being in there, itcould be cross-contamination,
(04:08):
you know, it could be either inthe food itself where it's made
, um, from, from milk or eggsor whatever, or even within one
of the ingredients they usingfurther down the chain might
have been cross-contaminated.
So to make a free from claim ,you've gotta have really
rigorous controls in place tocontrol that
cross-contamination risk. Um,and different retailers who
(04:31):
will have different standardsand they'll get audited and
there's cleaning verification,and some of them may even have
policies that are not allowed acertain ingredient on site so
that there's no risk ofcross-contamination, whereas
vegan just means it doesn'tdeliberately contain that
particularly ingredient. But itmight be that, that somebody
(04:55):
buys an ingredient to go intheir for good product, and the
factory that that mate was madein also makes milk or cheese
containing products, andthere's a little bit of cross
contamination. So, so you'vegot no guarantee against that .
And, and those tiny amounts canbe enough to trigger for most
severe allergies. So it's notthe same. No, I mean that it is
(05:15):
definitely not the same.
Patrick McNamara (05:17):
Yeah. That , that , that , that's
interesting. So where free fromrestrictions and controls and
not in place, how significantmight the risk of
cross-contamination be? Is itsomething that we think
producers of vegan foods takeseriously enough the
cross-contamination?
John Points (05:37):
Um , um, I mean, basically if you , if you've,
if you've got one of thosesevere allergies , you should
take it seriously. Um, but itis , it is not a huge risk. I
mean, I don't want to overplayit . It's , it's not common,
but it's, it's not beyond thebounds of possibility , uh,
that that might be, might be,you know , very trace level
cross from somewhere. And therehave been cases , uh, of, of,
(06:02):
certainly I'm not, I'm notaware of, of cases where, where
somebody's been severely madeill by analogy and in a vegan
product, but there have beencases where, where it's been
detected through testing andthings have been taken off the
shelves Mm-Hmm . Or withdrawnfrom sale. Uh , because , um,
(06:24):
although it's not the same,there's, there's probably a
fairly reasonable expectexpectations in a lot of
people's mind if they don'tappreciate the difference, if
they see something labeledvegan and they've got milk
allergy, it's, it is gonna beokay for them and say it's not
Patrick McNamara (06:39):
Necessarily .
Yeah , I , I would agree. I , Ithink the high profile cases of
people , um, being ill or , oreven dying from , um,
cross-contamination with, youknow, dairy products, for
instance, in vegan foods hascome in , uh, hospitality
restaurants and things likethat rather than, than retail.
(06:59):
Uh , and , and of course aswell with retail, there is
precautionary allergen labelingand, and we would probably
advise consumers with allergiesbuying vegan products to look
at precaution allergenlabeling. Yeah.
John Points (07:11):
But it , but again, probably brands are ,
are reluctant to put , put thaton, you know , it doesn't look
right, does it? If you , ifyou've got , um, you know,
vegan milk, substitute bracketsmay contain milk. Um , it just,
Patrick McNamara (07:27):
Yeah, yeah.
That doesn't ,
John Points (07:30):
The marketing.
Patrick McNamara (07:31):
Yes, yes, it does. But of course, the
alternative is, is to misleadthe consumer about the level of
risk. And, and talking aboutthat, what do you think food
businesses can do to reducetheir risk of cross
contamination , uh, whenproducing vegan foods?
John Points (07:48):
Well, I , I think it goes down probably to, to,
to the , the , the riskmanagement procedure that food
businesses or of a certain sizehave to legally have in place
is something called hazard andcritical control points. And
part of that, the first step ofthat is you consider who the
consumer is and whether they'revulnerable on their , what
(08:10):
their expectations are. So if,if a producers of a vegan food
have in their mind that theirconsumers are people who might
be buying that with areasonable expectation, but it
doesn't contain allergens, thenthat would drive the controls
(08:30):
such as , um, you know, timesegregation when , when they're
manufacturing differentproducts, so they don't have
cross-contamination between oneproduct and another. They have
cleaning intervals betweenthem. They may be audit or
require self-certification fromtheir own suppliers, but
there's not the same sort ofcross-contamination risk
(08:52):
further down chain , et cetera, et cetera . So , so, so
making that risk assessment inthe first place of who's gonna
be consuming the product andwhat their expectations are
then drives the controls thatit would be something much
closer to the controls you havewhen you're producing the fee
free from food.
Patrick McNamara (09:10):
Yeah . No , I understand. And of course, that
risk assessment should also bethe basis of any precautionary
labeling that you have as well.
Yes .
John Points (09:18):
Yeah,
Patrick McNamara (09:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Which is, is in yeah .
Important to remember. Um , wetalked right at the outset ,
um, we said, you know, youexplained quite well that there
isn't actually a bindingdefinition of vegan. Do we
think a legally bindingdefinition would benefit
business or the consumer?
Neither or both?
John Points (09:39):
I'm , I'm , I'm not sure it would , uh, to be
honest. Um, I'm , I mean, there, there is, there , there is a
, a definition of expectationat vegan. It doesn't contain,
you know, animal derivedingredients. Um, and everybody
understands that. I'm not surethat tying it down to, to some
(10:02):
sort of analyticalspecification, you know, it
must be less than one part perbillion of, of milk protein or
whatever it might be. Whatwould help , uh, and it would,
would end up probably with,with industry and regulators
tying themselves in not tryingto either interpret or enforce
it. So , um, yeah, I'm , I'm ,I'm , I'm not sure it would, I
(10:26):
think it's much more of thefood producers having in front
of their mind who theirconsumers are and what their
expectations are, and theconsumers are being educated to
, to know that there is a,there is a difference. And
actually vegan doesn'tguarantee completely free from,
Patrick McNamara (10:44):
And I think that's the route the FSA have
gone, haven't they?
John Points (10:47):
They have some , there's some very good guidance
on the UK
Patrick McNamara (10:50):
FSA website.
Yes . Yes . I did say that. I ,uh, I think , um, and this
isn't a question for now , butit was something that somebody
brought up with me an allergenconference read recently, and
they said that they understandthe limitations of the vegan
definition. They understandthat they need to take care
about the products they buy andread the labels. Um , but they
(11:12):
wondered, is this as good asit's ever going to get for us?
And , and I , I think the , um,the perception is that the onus
is now on them as consumers to,to, you know, check things
carefully. And I think therewas a hope perhaps that things
might get better or thecontrols might improve. We live
(11:33):
in hope. We live in hope. Yeah. But , um, John, thank you so
much for your time. It's beenan absolute pleasure to have
you on the show. Appreciate youcoming on and enlightening us
on this subject.
John Points (11:44):
Alright . Thanks very much Pat.
Patrick McNamara (11:45):
And for anybody listening in today, I
urge you to follow John andfollow his work with the IFST,
but also with the FoodAuthenticity Network, it is a
very good spend of your time.
Refaya Zaman Priya (11:56):
Now that we have covered the essentials of
allergens and vegan claims,Patrick will dive deeper into
the topic with VictoriaKusnierz , uh, from our global
labeling team. Let's listen in
Patrick McNamara (12:08):
On this program. I'm joined by Vicki
Kusnierz from Intertek's GlobalLabeling Team. U h, V icki,
thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Victoria Kusnierz (12:18):
Yeah, thanks Patrick. Thanks for having me.
Um, I'm pleased to be involvedwith this interesting project.
Patrick McNamara (12:24):
Uh , lovely to have you . Now, in the
previous session with JohnPoint , he touched on the
importance of labeling ininforming consumers about
product risk. In general terms,what do vegan or plant-based
manufacturers need to considerwhen creating food labels?
Victoria Kusnierz (12:43):
Well , um, a vegan label , uh, for a food
product must initially complywith all of the regulatory
requirements that are exactlythe same as a , a normal food
product. So it would includethings like , uh, the presence
of a product name to fullyidentify the product. Um, this
might be coupled with a furtherdescription so that the
(13:06):
consumer can understand exactlywhat the product contains and
what it might be used for. Sofor example, they might need to
identify whether a source isfor use , um, as a topping at
the table or a cooking source.
Uh , and that should beidentifiable , uh, by the, by
the consumer. Uh , there alsomight be some imagery on the
(13:27):
product, so that might show thepictures of the ingredients
that are present or show it ina actual , um, in use on the
table. And then they would needto type serving suggestion. Um,
and that would be included ,um, on the label. So claims
might appear around the label,so free from claims, allergen
(13:48):
claims, nutritional claims,high end protein, that sort of
thing. Um, and then you wouldhave the factual information
also on the label, so your netweight, your ingredients list,
storage instructions bestbefore , um, things like that .
Um, an additional thing thatyou might see on a label,
particularly for a veganproduct, might be , uh, the
(14:09):
logo of any societies eg thevegan society showing that the
product has met with theirspecific criteria.
Patrick McNamara (14:17):
Yeah . And understood. I I think that the
key message there is that , um,this is your, your key
information medium to theconsumer. So it needs to be
accurate and it needs toproperly reflect the nature of
the product, I think is whatwe're saying. Yeah,
Victoria Kusnierz (14:34):
That's correct. And also, obviously
you're going to have theingredients list , um, on the
product information andpotentially some , um, allergen
label advice as well.
Patrick McNamara (14:46):
Yeah, sure.
Now, one of the things wetouched on in the previous
session was on precautionaryallergen labeling. Um, for
people who aren't perhapsfamiliar with the terminology,
could you explain whatprecaution allergen labeling
is?
Victoria Kusnierz (15:02):
Um, yes . So the manufacturers will use
precautionary allergen labeling, uh, for the safety of
consumers. Uh , so they willcarry out a risk assessment to
determine the likelihood of anyallergens being present in
their product. Um, and this canbe through unintentional
cross-contamination of eitherthe products manufactured on
(15:22):
their site or potentially theingredients which they're
putting into their productsproduced at other facilities.
Um, the expansion of vegan foodhas meant that many traditional
producers , um, have addedvegan as an extra line , um, to
their product portfolio. Soother , um, products might be
(15:42):
present on site . So if one ofthe 14 allergens, which is not
an ingredient to the product,is being identified as a
potential risk of beingpresent, even at really small
levels in the product, then um,the manufacturers will put a
may contain statement , um, ona label to notify people that
(16:03):
that particular , um,ingredient, that particular
allergen could be , um, at riskof being present.
Patrick McNamara (16:11):
Sure. Um , I , I think as well, I think it's
important to emphasize thatprecautionary allergen labeling
should be driven by proper riskassessment, and that it's not
something that you should doinitially just to cover
yourself. It should besomething that's done via a
thorough risk assessment of theprocess.
Victoria Kusnierz (16:30):
Yes, that's right. And it's also , um,
worth noting that these volunt, these statements are
voluntary , um, on a pack . Sothe manufacturer is not legally
obliged to include it, althoughit might be misleading if they
don't , um, include it and thenit is present , um, in the
product. So a little bit of agray area. Uh ,
Patrick McNamara (16:51):
Yeah, I , I think the message is if there
is a risk, you should behighlighting it to consumers.
And, and just for , uh, peoplewho , again, may not be
familiar with it , where wouldyou tend to find precaution,
reality labeling on packaging?
Victoria Kusnierz (17:07):
Okay, so , um, on a, on a typical food
label, you will have youringredients list, which shows
the information on all of theingredients which are present
in the product , um,intentionally. And then
following that, then you mighthave , um, an indication of
allergens that are presentedwithin the product , uh, which
(17:28):
would highlight how the product, the allergens are , um,
informed within the ingredientslist, but also and may contain
statement that would highlightany potential risk. So this
would be maybe in a separatelittle box or a separate little
area , um, easily highlightedand easily seen following the
(17:50):
ingredients list. Or sometimesit will be , um, just an
additional piece of text kindof following on from the
ingredients list. So a littlebit more difficult to spot, but
at the bottom of theingredients list may contain
and a list of the potential ,um, risk elements that could be
there. Sure. So you could get aproduct which , um, for example
(18:13):
, um, is a vegan product, whichwill then say, may contain
milk, may contain eggs , uh,may contain fish, that sort of
, that sort of risk.
Patrick McNamara (18:25):
Yeah. No , that , that's great. Vicki .
Thank you very much forexplaining. So I , I think
that's the message. Consumers,check your food labels
carefully, manufacturers, makesure your labels are compliant.
And for those of you listening,if you would like to add the
Intertech vegan verified logoto your products, you can take
part in our vegan controlprogram. And for more
(18:48):
information on that, or indeedfor any labeling compliance
support, you can check outintertech.com/food . Uh , Vicki
cos thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Victoria Kusnierz (18:59):
Thank you for having me.
Patrick McNamara (19:01):
Pleasure.
Refaya Zaman Priya (19:02):
Finally, we begin the first in our round
the world discussions with thefocus on Turkey Patrick, along
with Kerim Ersin from ourIntertek Turkey team will
explore how vegan food trendsare evolving there. Over to
you, Patrick.
Patrick McNamara (19:20):
Uh , as you know, as part of our monthly
peak at Global Vegan andPlant-based markets, this month
we're in Turkey, and I'm proudto be joined by Intertek Kerim
Ersin. Kerim, welcome to theprogram.
Kerim Ersin (19:34):
Yeah, thank you very much, Pait . Uh , first of
all, I would like to introducemyself , uh, my name is Kerim
Ersin. I am the Food Engineer.
I joined Intertek in 2020 , andI'm working at Intertek as a
leader and trainer. Also , I'mfor sector business development
executor in local. Uh , alsoI'm responsible for B-R-C-G-S
(19:56):
program , uh, as a globaltechnical manager. Uh , as of
2023 , we continue to supportour clients , uh, with audit
and training services with oursubject matter experts by
taking intech standard into ourservice scope . I hope it'll be
very useful and informative toall food sectors.
Patrick McNamara (20:16):
Uh , that , that's great. Kerim and, and
just to point out that IntertekTurkey, we're pretty much the
first country to adopt theIntertek Vegan program, so
welcome to the team down there.
Um, how would you describe thevegan market in Turkey right
now?
Kerim Ersin (20:31):
Yeah. Uh , so yeah , uh, that's a good question.
And the wagon product, productand , uh, certification process
has been increasedsignificantly in Turkey for the
last five years. Uh , thissituation is determined by main
factors such as changingcustomer demands and needs
change in consumption patterns, uh, customer demand company
(20:55):
desire to use of logos andprocessing the market. Uh ,
therefore many companies in turare include inverse vacant
certification programs withwithin this scope as Intertek
Turkey. Uh , we joined thisprogram due to the increasing
demand for certification and ,uh, customers trust in Intertek
, uh, a growing number ofcustomers , uh, are considering
(21:19):
vegetarian , uh, veganism orflex approach because of the ED
health benefits and wellbalanced plant-based diet diet
offers.
Patrick McNamara (21:32):
Yeah. And, and that's what we're hearing
from , from other countriestoo, Kira , is that , um, there
is an increase in, in beingflexitarian vegetarian or , or
vegan. So , um, what do youthink are the reasons perhaps
behind the growing interest invegan and plant-based foods ?
Kerim Ersin (21:49):
Yeah. Um , actually we , we can , uh, we
can list many reasons , uh, forthis , uh, like sustainable,
life efficient use of resources, uh, changing construction
patterns , uh, confidence incertification , uh, customer
demands , uh, customer prepreference , uh, and also
(22:10):
increasing the availability ofvacant products , uh, will
enable the market expansion.
Customers , uh, will benefit byhaving increased confidence in
their purchases, wideavailability and variant of
choice. In this point, we areproviding all promotes a
systems based and facilitycertification approach to
(22:30):
prevent failure , uh, reducesthe risk associated with relink
solid and , um, on and productanimal input testing. Uh ,
trained and approved auditorsand training providers. Uh ,
compress , uh, support packageopens new markets and increase
business opportunities. Um ,increasing the availability of
(22:52):
vegan product choices for agrowing customer market, will
brand trust , but associatecustomer , uh, products with on
unpack trademark and , uh,provides marketing tools and
public recognition on Intertechwebpage.
Patrick McNamara (23:09):
Yeah, that , that , that's interesting
because , um, the growing takeup of , um, vegan certification
by businesses , is obviouslyabout building brand trust with
consumers and provides a goodmarketing tool for their
business. Actually. It givesthem a very high profile. So
(23:31):
our restaurants responding toconsumers looking for vegan
options. Are there more veganoptions in restaurants in
Turkey?
Kerim Ersin (23:39):
Yeah . Uh , currently in Turkey , uh,
restaurants are creating manyconcepts in this context. Uh ,
information about the contentof the males is provided. Uh,
the suitability for reconception is stated. Uh , some
special designs suitable for reconceptions are created ,
created , uh, in the mannersalso. Yeah. Uh ,
Patrick McNamara (24:00):
That , that , that , that's really good to
know. So yeah , big pieces ,visitors to Turkey, going to
anchor Istanbul or whereverthey go, they can be assured
that there will be an optionfor them. Istanbul, of course ,
huge city- very many visitors.
So it , it's good that they'recatering for vegan visitors.
Yes. Um, do you have arecommendation for vegan
visitors to Turkey?
Kerim Ersin (24:21):
Yeah, actually , uh, already that an suggestion.
Turkey has a very wide menu interms of foods. Uh, I think
everybody knows that. So youcan find every product that you
are looking for Sure . For andwhat to eat in Turkey. Yeah, we
are open, everybody
Patrick McNamara (24:38):
Well , that , that , that's brilliant. It's
good to know that the Turkey isopen for business for all
consumers, whatever theirdietary choice is . Um , yeah .
Okay. That , that's great.
Kieran , thank you for, forjoining us. Yeah . I think ,
um, um, you're welcome. I thinkwe're pretty much out of time.
I think we could talk moreabout the Intertek vegan
standard, which I think we'regonna have a a another program
(25:00):
on that. So perhaps you'll joinus for a future program,
specifically about thestandard.
Kerim Ersin (25:07):
Yes . Uh , maybe we can add , uh, some
information, small informationas a result , uh, with more
customers purchasing veganfood, either as part of vegan
diet or to reduce their meatconsumption , labeling is
essential. That's because , uh,customers are more likely to
purchase a product that is acertification label , uh, which
(25:27):
can cause confusion in theindustry that has generally
been , uh, self-regulated.
However, most customers , uh,don't trust labels alone that
merrily such a product is freefrom . But Intertek Vegan
program , uh, delivers theindustry's most technically
advanced and size basedmanagement system. So , uh, for
(25:49):
that reason, we can chooseIntertek Vegan standard.
Patrick McNamara (25:52):
Okay, perfect. Yeah . Um , and that,
that's perfectly summarized theprogram, so hopefully that'll ,
uh, give people an appetite formore information. So , um, if,
if people have more questionsor technical information, you
can contact either me or Kerimor go to the intertek.com/food.
(26:12):
Kerim, thank you very much forjoining us today. Really
appreciate your time.
Kerim Ersin (26:16):
Yeah, you're welcome. And thank you , uh,
Patrick. Thank you very much.
Refaya Zaman Priya (26:22):
That wraps up the first episode of our
vegan food series on assuranceand action. We hope you enjoyed
this in-depth exploration ofvegan food, from allergen
management to global labelingstandards and insights from
Turkey's growing veganmovement. Thank you for tuning
in. Don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on your favorite
(26:42):
platform. Stay tuned for ournext episode to dive deeper
into the world of vegan food.
Until next time, this is RefayaZaman Priya , signing off.
Thank you everyone.
Hello and welcome to Assurance and
Action, the podcast where weexplore the latest trends and
insights in the world of foodsafety, quality, and
sustainability. This is RefayaZaman Priya , the global social
media marketing manager forIntertek Business Assurance
Food Services, and Caleb Brett.
(00:31):
Today we are kicking off atexciting new series on a topic
that's gaining immensepopularity and importance ,
vegan food. And this firstepisode we'll be diving deep
into various aspects of veganfood, from allergen management
to global labeling standards,and even a special segment on
how different regions aroundthe world are embracing
(00:54):
veganism. Our host for thisepisode is Patrick McNamara,
global Innovations and QualityManager for Food Services, who
will be guiding us throughtoday's discussions with our
expert guests. Let's getstarted. To kick off our
conversation, Patrick will bespeaking with John Points , who
(01:15):
will shed light on the criticalaspects of allergen management
and vegan claims. Here'sPatrick with the first segment.
Enjoy .
Patrick McNamara (01:24):
Hello everyone. Now, one of the
recent areas of focus for foodsmaking vegan claims has been on
allergen labeling and researchshows that many people consider
vegan foods to be safe forconsumers with allergies to
dairy or egg proteins, forexample. But can the claims of
(01:46):
vegan and free from be treatedequally? How much risk is there
to allergic to consumers fromthis perception? And what does
the law actually demand? Now toguide us through some of the
key parts of this topic I havewith me, independent food
consultant and scientific chairof the IFST John Points .
(02:08):
Welcome, John.
John Points (02:10):
Thanks, pat.
Patrick McNamara (02:11):
It's a pleasure to have you with us.
Um , if we could start thenperhaps on the legal position ,
um, what is the current legalposition on making a vegan
claim?
John Points (02:23):
Well , basically the , the , the legal position
is, is a claim shouldn't,shouldn't mislead consumers.
And , and that's the law inEurope and the uk, but there's
no, there's no , um, specificdefinition of vegan. So, so
people understand vegan is notcontaining animal derived
ingredients. Um, there's theclaim vegan, there are
(02:47):
additionally kite mark schemes,for example, the vegan society
of the UK, where, wherecompanies could apply to and
get a kite mark on their food.
But it's been approved by thevegan society. But those are
private schemes for commercialschemes effectively. It's not a
yeah , it's not a illegal.
Patrick McNamara (03:03):
Yeah, no, I , I understand. So the schemes
themselves may have adefinition Yeah. But there's no
regulation that defines Yeah .
Vegan in, in the uk. Um, it'sinteresting, as I alluded to in
the introduction, there was a ugov survey run in the UK in
January of this year, and thatsurvey showed that 72% of
(03:24):
participants believe that veganfood doesn't contain any
ingredients derived fromanimals, therefore making it
safe for individuals withallergies. But how dangerous
might that misconception ofvegan labeling be , um, when
they're equating it withallergen labeling, which is
really about food safety?
John Points (03:45):
Yeah, I mean, I , I think probably the issue is
people don't appreciate thatthe detail and the work and the
, and the governance that goesbehind make it a free from
claim. Uh, so, so people withallergies, it , it could be
tiny amounts that, that triggerthe allergy. So rather than an
ingredient being in there, itcould be cross-contamination,
(04:08):
you know, it could be either inthe food itself where it's made
, um, from, from milk or eggsor whatever, or even within one
of the ingredients they usingfurther down the chain might
have been cross-contaminated.
So to make a free from claim ,you've gotta have really
rigorous controls in place tocontrol that
cross-contamination risk. Um,and different retailers who
(04:31):
will have different standardsand they'll get audited and
there's cleaning verification,and some of them may even have
policies that are not allowed acertain ingredient on site so
that there's no risk ofcross-contamination, whereas
vegan just means it doesn'tdeliberately contain that
particularly ingredient. But itmight be that, that somebody
(04:55):
buys an ingredient to go intheir for good product, and the
factory that that mate was madein also makes milk or cheese
containing products, andthere's a little bit of cross
contamination. So, so you'vegot no guarantee against that .
And, and those tiny amounts canbe enough to trigger for most
severe allergies. So it's notthe same. No, I mean that it is
(05:15):
definitely not the same.
Patrick McNamara (05:17):
Yeah. That , that , that , that's
interesting. So where free fromrestrictions and controls and
not in place, how significantmight the risk of
cross-contamination be? Is itsomething that we think
producers of vegan foods takeseriously enough the
cross-contamination?
John Points (05:37):
Um , um, I mean, basically if you , if you've,
if you've got one of thosesevere allergies , you should
take it seriously. Um, but itis , it is not a huge risk. I
mean, I don't want to overplayit . It's , it's not common,
but it's, it's not beyond thebounds of possibility , uh,
that that might be, might be,you know , very trace level
cross from somewhere. And therehave been cases , uh, of, of,
(06:02):
certainly I'm not, I'm notaware of, of cases where, where
somebody's been severely madeill by analogy and in a vegan
product, but there have beencases where, where it's been
detected through testing andthings have been taken off the
shelves Mm-Hmm . Or withdrawnfrom sale. Uh , because , um,
(06:24):
although it's not the same,there's, there's probably a
fairly reasonable expectexpectations in a lot of
people's mind if they don'tappreciate the difference, if
they see something labeledvegan and they've got milk
allergy, it's, it is gonna beokay for them and say it's not
Patrick McNamara (06:39):
Necessarily .
Yeah , I , I would agree. I , Ithink the high profile cases of
people , um, being ill or , oreven dying from , um,
cross-contamination with, youknow, dairy products, for
instance, in vegan foods hascome in , uh, hospitality
restaurants and things likethat rather than, than retail.
(06:59):
Uh , and , and of course aswell with retail, there is
precautionary allergen labelingand, and we would probably
advise consumers with allergiesbuying vegan products to look
at precaution allergenlabeling. Yeah.
John Points (07:11):
But it , but again, probably brands are ,
are reluctant to put , put thaton, you know , it doesn't look
right, does it? If you , ifyou've got , um, you know,
vegan milk, substitute bracketsmay contain milk. Um , it just,
Patrick McNamara (07:27):
Yeah, yeah.
That doesn't ,
John Points (07:30):
The marketing.
Patrick McNamara (07:31):
Yes, yes, it does. But of course, the
alternative is, is to misleadthe consumer about the level of
risk. And, and talking aboutthat, what do you think food
businesses can do to reducetheir risk of cross
contamination , uh, whenproducing vegan foods?
John Points (07:48):
Well, I , I think it goes down probably to, to,
to the , the , the riskmanagement procedure that food
businesses or of a certain sizehave to legally have in place
is something called hazard andcritical control points. And
part of that, the first step ofthat is you consider who the
consumer is and whether they'revulnerable on their , what
(08:10):
their expectations are. So if,if a producers of a vegan food
have in their mind that theirconsumers are people who might
be buying that with areasonable expectation, but it
doesn't contain allergens, thenthat would drive the controls
(08:30):
such as , um, you know, timesegregation when , when they're
manufacturing differentproducts, so they don't have
cross-contamination between oneproduct and another. They have
cleaning intervals betweenthem. They may be audit or
require self-certification fromtheir own suppliers, but
there's not the same sort ofcross-contamination risk
(08:52):
further down chain , et cetera, et cetera . So , so, so
making that risk assessment inthe first place of who's gonna
be consuming the product andwhat their expectations are
then drives the controls thatit would be something much
closer to the controls you havewhen you're producing the fee
free from food.
Patrick McNamara (09:10):
Yeah . No , I understand. And of course, that
risk assessment should also bethe basis of any precautionary
labeling that you have as well.
Yes .
John Points (09:18):
Yeah,
Patrick McNamara (09:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Which is, is in yeah .
Important to remember. Um , wetalked right at the outset ,
um, we said, you know, youexplained quite well that there
isn't actually a bindingdefinition of vegan. Do we
think a legally bindingdefinition would benefit
business or the consumer?
Neither or both?
John Points (09:39):
I'm , I'm , I'm not sure it would , uh, to be
honest. Um, I'm , I mean, there, there is, there , there is a
, a definition of expectationat vegan. It doesn't contain,
you know, animal derivedingredients. Um, and everybody
understands that. I'm not surethat tying it down to, to some
(10:02):
sort of analyticalspecification, you know, it
must be less than one part perbillion of, of milk protein or
whatever it might be. Whatwould help , uh, and it would,
would end up probably with,with industry and regulators
tying themselves in not tryingto either interpret or enforce
it. So , um, yeah, I'm , I'm ,I'm , I'm not sure it would, I
(10:26):
think it's much more of thefood producers having in front
of their mind who theirconsumers are and what their
expectations are, and theconsumers are being educated to
, to know that there is a,there is a difference. And
actually vegan doesn'tguarantee completely free from,
Patrick McNamara (10:44):
And I think that's the route the FSA have
gone, haven't they?
John Points (10:47):
They have some , there's some very good guidance
on the UK
Patrick McNamara (10:50):
FSA website.
Yes . Yes . I did say that. I ,uh, I think , um, and this
isn't a question for now , butit was something that somebody
brought up with me an allergenconference read recently, and
they said that they understandthe limitations of the vegan
definition. They understandthat they need to take care
about the products they buy andread the labels. Um , but they
(11:12):
wondered, is this as good asit's ever going to get for us?
And , and I , I think the , um,the perception is that the onus
is now on them as consumers to,to, you know, check things
carefully. And I think therewas a hope perhaps that things
might get better or thecontrols might improve. We live
(11:33):
in hope. We live in hope. Yeah. But , um, John, thank you so
much for your time. It's beenan absolute pleasure to have
you on the show. Appreciate youcoming on and enlightening us
on this subject.
John Points (11:44):
Alright . Thanks very much Pat.
Patrick McNamara (11:45):
And for anybody listening in today, I
urge you to follow John andfollow his work with the IFST,
but also with the FoodAuthenticity Network, it is a
very good spend of your time.
Refaya Zaman Priya (11:56):
Now that we have covered the essentials of
allergens and vegan claims,Patrick will dive deeper into
the topic with VictoriaKusnierz , uh, from our global
labeling team. Let's listen in
Patrick McNamara (12:08):
On this program. I'm joined by Vicki
Kusnierz from Intertek's GlobalLabeling Team. U h, V icki,
thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Victoria Kusnierz (12:18):
Yeah, thanks Patrick. Thanks for having me.
Um, I'm pleased to be involvedwith this interesting project.
Patrick McNamara (12:24):
Uh , lovely to have you . Now, in the
previous session with JohnPoint , he touched on the
importance of labeling ininforming consumers about
product risk. In general terms,what do vegan or plant-based
manufacturers need to considerwhen creating food labels?
Victoria Kusnierz (12:43):
Well , um, a vegan label , uh, for a food
product must initially complywith all of the regulatory
requirements that are exactlythe same as a , a normal food
product. So it would includethings like , uh, the presence
of a product name to fullyidentify the product. Um, this
might be coupled with a furtherdescription so that the
(13:06):
consumer can understand exactlywhat the product contains and
what it might be used for. Sofor example, they might need to
identify whether a source isfor use , um, as a topping at
the table or a cooking source.
Uh , and that should beidentifiable , uh, by the, by
the consumer. Uh , there alsomight be some imagery on the
(13:27):
product, so that might show thepictures of the ingredients
that are present or show it ina actual , um, in use on the
table. And then they would needto type serving suggestion. Um,
and that would be included ,um, on the label. So claims
might appear around the label,so free from claims, allergen
(13:48):
claims, nutritional claims,high end protein, that sort of
thing. Um, and then you wouldhave the factual information
also on the label, so your netweight, your ingredients list,
storage instructions bestbefore , um, things like that .
Um, an additional thing thatyou might see on a label,
particularly for a veganproduct, might be , uh, the
(14:09):
logo of any societies eg thevegan society showing that the
product has met with theirspecific criteria.
Patrick McNamara (14:17):
Yeah . And understood. I I think that the
key message there is that , um,this is your, your key
information medium to theconsumer. So it needs to be
accurate and it needs toproperly reflect the nature of
the product, I think is whatwe're saying. Yeah,
Victoria Kusnierz (14:34):
That's correct. And also, obviously
you're going to have theingredients list , um, on the
product information andpotentially some , um, allergen
label advice as well.
Patrick McNamara (14:46):
Yeah, sure.
Now, one of the things wetouched on in the previous
session was on precautionaryallergen labeling. Um, for
people who aren't perhapsfamiliar with the terminology,
could you explain whatprecaution allergen labeling
is?
Victoria Kusnierz (15:02):
Um, yes . So the manufacturers will use
precautionary allergen labeling, uh, for the safety of
consumers. Uh , so they willcarry out a risk assessment to
determine the likelihood of anyallergens being present in
their product. Um, and this canbe through unintentional
cross-contamination of eitherthe products manufactured on
(15:22):
their site or potentially theingredients which they're
putting into their productsproduced at other facilities.
Um, the expansion of vegan foodhas meant that many traditional
producers , um, have addedvegan as an extra line , um, to
their product portfolio. Soother , um, products might be
(15:42):
present on site . So if one ofthe 14 allergens, which is not
an ingredient to the product,is being identified as a
potential risk of beingpresent, even at really small
levels in the product, then um,the manufacturers will put a
may contain statement , um, ona label to notify people that
(16:03):
that particular , um,ingredient, that particular
allergen could be , um, at riskof being present.
Patrick McNamara (16:11):
Sure. Um , I , I think as well, I think it's
important to emphasize thatprecautionary allergen labeling
should be driven by proper riskassessment, and that it's not
something that you should doinitially just to cover
yourself. It should besomething that's done via a
thorough risk assessment of theprocess.
Victoria Kusnierz (16:30):
Yes, that's right. And it's also , um,
worth noting that these volunt, these statements are
voluntary , um, on a pack . Sothe manufacturer is not legally
obliged to include it, althoughit might be misleading if they
don't , um, include it and thenit is present , um, in the
product. So a little bit of agray area. Uh ,
Patrick McNamara (16:51):
Yeah, I , I think the message is if there
is a risk, you should behighlighting it to consumers.
And, and just for , uh, peoplewho , again, may not be
familiar with it , where wouldyou tend to find precaution,
reality labeling on packaging?
Victoria Kusnierz (17:07):
Okay, so , um, on a, on a typical food
label, you will have youringredients list, which shows
the information on all of theingredients which are present
in the product , um,intentionally. And then
following that, then you mighthave , um, an indication of
allergens that are presentedwithin the product , uh, which
(17:28):
would highlight how the product, the allergens are , um,
informed within the ingredientslist, but also and may contain
statement that would highlightany potential risk. So this
would be maybe in a separatelittle box or a separate little
area , um, easily highlightedand easily seen following the
(17:50):
ingredients list. Or sometimesit will be , um, just an
additional piece of text kindof following on from the
ingredients list. So a littlebit more difficult to spot, but
at the bottom of theingredients list may contain
and a list of the potential ,um, risk elements that could be
there. Sure. So you could get aproduct which , um, for example
(18:13):
, um, is a vegan product, whichwill then say, may contain
milk, may contain eggs , uh,may contain fish, that sort of
, that sort of risk.
Patrick McNamara (18:25):
Yeah. No , that , that's great. Vicki .
Thank you very much forexplaining. So I , I think
that's the message. Consumers,check your food labels
carefully, manufacturers, makesure your labels are compliant.
And for those of you listening,if you would like to add the
Intertech vegan verified logoto your products, you can take
part in our vegan controlprogram. And for more
(18:48):
information on that, or indeedfor any labeling compliance
support, you can check outintertech.com/food . Uh , Vicki
cos thank you so much for beingwith us today.
Victoria Kusnierz (18:59):
Thank you for having me.
Patrick McNamara (19:01):
Pleasure.
Refaya Zaman Priya (19:02):
Finally, we begin the first in our round
the world discussions with thefocus on Turkey Patrick, along
with Kerim Ersin from ourIntertek Turkey team will
explore how vegan food trendsare evolving there. Over to
you, Patrick.
Patrick McNamara (19:20):
Uh , as you know, as part of our monthly
peak at Global Vegan andPlant-based markets, this month
we're in Turkey, and I'm proudto be joined by Intertek Kerim
Ersin. Kerim, welcome to theprogram.
Kerim Ersin (19:34):
Yeah, thank you very much, Pait . Uh , first of
all, I would like to introducemyself , uh, my name is Kerim
Ersin. I am the Food Engineer.
I joined Intertek in 2020 , andI'm working at Intertek as a
leader and trainer. Also , I'mfor sector business development
executor in local. Uh , alsoI'm responsible for B-R-C-G-S
(19:56):
program , uh, as a globaltechnical manager. Uh , as of
2023 , we continue to supportour clients , uh, with audit
and training services with oursubject matter experts by
taking intech standard into ourservice scope . I hope it'll be
very useful and informative toall food sectors.
Patrick McNamara (20:16):
Uh , that , that's great. Kerim and, and
just to point out that IntertekTurkey, we're pretty much the
first country to adopt theIntertek Vegan program, so
welcome to the team down there.
Um, how would you describe thevegan market in Turkey right
now?
Kerim Ersin (20:31):
Yeah. Uh , so yeah , uh, that's a good question.
And the wagon product, productand , uh, certification process
has been increasedsignificantly in Turkey for the
last five years. Uh , thissituation is determined by main
factors such as changingcustomer demands and needs
change in consumption patterns, uh, customer demand company
(20:55):
desire to use of logos andprocessing the market. Uh ,
therefore many companies in turare include inverse vacant
certification programs withwithin this scope as Intertek
Turkey. Uh , we joined thisprogram due to the increasing
demand for certification and ,uh, customers trust in Intertek
, uh, a growing number ofcustomers , uh, are considering
(21:19):
vegetarian , uh, veganism orflex approach because of the ED
health benefits and wellbalanced plant-based diet diet
offers.
Patrick McNamara (21:32):
Yeah. And, and that's what we're hearing
from , from other countriestoo, Kira , is that , um, there
is an increase in, in beingflexitarian vegetarian or , or
vegan. So , um, what do youthink are the reasons perhaps
behind the growing interest invegan and plant-based foods ?
Kerim Ersin (21:49):
Yeah. Um , actually we , we can , uh, we
can list many reasons , uh, forthis , uh, like sustainable,
life efficient use of resources, uh, changing construction
patterns , uh, confidence incertification , uh, customer
demands , uh, customer prepreference , uh, and also
(22:10):
increasing the availability ofvacant products , uh, will
enable the market expansion.
Customers , uh, will benefit byhaving increased confidence in
their purchases, wideavailability and variant of
choice. In this point, we areproviding all promotes a
systems based and facilitycertification approach to
(22:30):
prevent failure , uh, reducesthe risk associated with relink
solid and , um, on and productanimal input testing. Uh ,
trained and approved auditorsand training providers. Uh ,
compress , uh, support packageopens new markets and increase
business opportunities. Um ,increasing the availability of
(22:52):
vegan product choices for agrowing customer market, will
brand trust , but associatecustomer , uh, products with on
unpack trademark and , uh,provides marketing tools and
public recognition on Intertechwebpage.
Patrick McNamara (23:09):
Yeah, that , that , that's interesting
because , um, the growing takeup of , um, vegan certification
by businesses , is obviouslyabout building brand trust with
consumers and provides a goodmarketing tool for their
business. Actually. It givesthem a very high profile. So
(23:31):
our restaurants responding toconsumers looking for vegan
options. Are there more veganoptions in restaurants in
Turkey?
Kerim Ersin (23:39):
Yeah . Uh , currently in Turkey , uh,
restaurants are creating manyconcepts in this context. Uh ,
information about the contentof the males is provided. Uh,
the suitability for reconception is stated. Uh , some
special designs suitable for reconceptions are created ,
created , uh, in the mannersalso. Yeah. Uh ,
Patrick McNamara (24:00):
That , that , that , that's really good to
know. So yeah , big pieces ,visitors to Turkey, going to
anchor Istanbul or whereverthey go, they can be assured
that there will be an optionfor them. Istanbul, of course ,
huge city- very many visitors.
So it , it's good that they'recatering for vegan visitors.
Yes. Um, do you have arecommendation for vegan
visitors to Turkey?
Kerim Ersin (24:21):
Yeah, actually , uh, already that an suggestion.
Turkey has a very wide menu interms of foods. Uh, I think
everybody knows that. So youcan find every product that you
are looking for Sure . For andwhat to eat in Turkey. Yeah, we
are open, everybody
Patrick McNamara (24:38):
Well , that , that , that's brilliant. It's
good to know that the Turkey isopen for business for all
consumers, whatever theirdietary choice is . Um , yeah .
Okay. That , that's great.
Kieran , thank you for, forjoining us. Yeah . I think ,
um, um, you're welcome. I thinkwe're pretty much out of time.
I think we could talk moreabout the Intertek vegan
standard, which I think we'regonna have a a another program
(25:00):
on that. So perhaps you'll joinus for a future program,
specifically about thestandard.
Kerim Ersin (25:07):
Yes . Uh , maybe we can add , uh, some
information, small informationas a result , uh, with more
customers purchasing veganfood, either as part of vegan
diet or to reduce their meatconsumption , labeling is
essential. That's because , uh,customers are more likely to
purchase a product that is acertification label , uh, which
(25:27):
can cause confusion in theindustry that has generally
been , uh, self-regulated.
However, most customers , uh,don't trust labels alone that
merrily such a product is freefrom . But Intertek Vegan
program , uh, delivers theindustry's most technically
advanced and size basedmanagement system. So , uh, for
(25:49):
that reason, we can chooseIntertek Vegan standard.
Patrick McNamara (25:52):
Okay, perfect. Yeah . Um , and that,
that's perfectly summarized theprogram, so hopefully that'll ,
uh, give people an appetite formore information. So , um, if,
if people have more questionsor technical information, you
can contact either me or Kerimor go to the intertek.com/food.
(26:12):
Kerim, thank you very much forjoining us today. Really
appreciate your time.
Kerim Ersin (26:16):
Yeah, you're welcome. And thank you , uh,
Patrick. Thank you very much.
Refaya Zaman Priya (26:22):
That wraps up the first episode of our
vegan food series on assuranceand action. We hope you enjoyed
this in-depth exploration ofvegan food, from allergen
management to global labelingstandards and insights from
Turkey's growing veganmovement. Thank you for tuning
in. Don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on your favorite
(26:42):
platform. Stay tuned for ournext episode to dive deeper
into the world of vegan food.
Until next time, this is RefayaZaman Priya , signing off.
Thank you everyone.
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