November 25, 2023 • 55 mins
Note: This episode was recorded before the events of October 2023.
In this episode I speak to longtime VISIONS consultant Dr. Deborah J. Walker, who has spent her life doing anti-oppression work-- a commitment rooted in her experiences growing up in Birmingham, Alabama in the 1960s. When she was 12, Dr. Walker was a block away from the 16th Street Baptist Church on September 15, 1963, when it was bombed-- an inflection moment in the history of civil rights in the US.
Dr. Walker takes us back to her childhood in Birmingham, Alabama, painting a vivid picture of the Civil Rights movement and the striking events that occurred in 1960s, from the Children's March, the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, and the 1963 March on Washington to the assassinations of President Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. These experiences not only impacted her life, but also set her on the path towards working for social justice, change, and equity.
Dr. Walker recounts her professional journey, where she learned to channel her clinical skills to support historically excluded communities — work that eventually led her to VISIONS. From understanding the importance of self-care to building alliances, Dr. Walker takes us through the learnings that not only helped her grow, but also nurtured her resolve to continue speaking truth to power.
In the final part of our journey, we talk about the tour that Dr. Walker is leading along the Alabama Civil Rights Trail in May 2024. The trip includes visits to sites like the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute, Kelly Ingram Park, and the 16th Street Baptist Church. We discuss the Equal Justice Initiative (EJI) and its striking exhibits on the histories and legacies of enslavement, incarceration, and lynching in United States. Dr. Walker emphasizes how vital it is to understand history as we learn to work together for a more just and equitable future.
See what's coming up at VISIONS!
About us
Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.
Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.
VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.
Any opinions and views expressed by the speakers are their own and do not reflect the positions of VISIONS, Inc.
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Music credit: Tim Hall @tv_hall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leena (00:01):
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a podcast
about transformative change,equity and working against
oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with VISIONS Inc.
Welcome, hi, everybody.
I'm sitting here with theinimitable, the fabulous, the
(00:22):
wonderful Dr.
Deborah J.
Walker, colleague and mentorand friend, who I've had the
pleasure of working with closelyover the past few years that
I've been at Visions.
Deborah, hello, welcome, thankyou.
Would you introduce yourself?
Deborah (00:36):
Sure, so I'm Deborah Walker.
I have well.
I started my journey withVISIONS in 1989 and have been a
Visions consultant and served onthe staff since that time, and
originally from BirminghamAlabama.
Leena (00:52):
Wonderful.
So, Deborah, among the thingswe've done together, one of them
is the Visions on the CivilRights Trail tour and workshop
that took place earlier thisyear 2023, in different cities
in Alabama.
So we're going to talk aboutthat in a minute.
And first, so we get a sense ofwhat your story is, tell me a
(01:12):
little bit about how you grew up.
I know you were born in Alabamaand I had the privilege of
seeing some of the places thatyou came from.
Deborah (01:20):
Yeah, so, as a note that I grew up in Birmingham,
Alabama, in the 60s, I grew upin a working class community
called Titusville and I want tosay a little bit about my family
and the community, kind of setthe context.
So my mom for many years workedas a domestic and then she
(01:41):
became head of nutrition for adaycare center and that's how
she ended her career.
New field of daycare center.
My mom also was a midwife, soshe was a very talented woman.
My dad owned his own businessand he later was employed at
John's Right Out,, which was awhite funeral home.
All of this will havesignificance later.
(02:02):
I was the oldest of threechildren, the only girl, and I
had two younger brothers and interms of the community I grew up
in, I'd say that particularlyin the African American culture
we often say it takes a village,and I lived in a village, in my
community.
(02:22):
Folks took care of one anotherand always looked out for one
another and in many ways I feltisolated from the racism that
was clearly in play in the 50sand the 60s.
Also, we'll say that mycommunity was also my church.
I grew up in St Paul UnitedMethodist Church and the church
(02:46):
was a part of a larger communityand had folks who were
educators, school principals,and they really worked to do
what they needed to do to ensurethat we as children needed
spiritually, emotionally andeducationally Note the church
(03:07):
community.
Because St Paul was involved inthe civil rights movement early
on in the late 50s, early 60sand physically, st Paul is still
located one block from 16thStreet Baptist Church where the
four little girls were killed inSeptember 15, 1963.
(03:32):
In fact we just had a 60thcommemoration of that.
So I want to say that becauseSt Paul and 16th Street and
other churches in the areareally formed communities for us
to be and to feel safe,although that didn't happen on
September 15, 1963.
(03:54):
And so my growing up in avillage and growing up with
folks that I knew cared about medeeply in the face of the
racism that was prevalent wasreally powerful and greatly
influenced who I am and what Ido today.
And I wanted to say a little bitmore about 16th Street within
(04:18):
the context racism and how itwas playing out in Birmingham,
alabama.
I'm realizing that in May of1963, Dr King wrote the letter
from Birmingham jail and heactually came to Birmingham
because Fred Shuttlesworth, whowas the leader of the movement
(04:41):
in Alabama, asked him to comeand help.
So he came and, of course, inMay of 1963, he wrote this
letter from the Birmingham jailbecause he didn't want to stop
protesting and so they jailedhim.
The date is significant becausealso in May there was the
(05:02):
Children's Crusade, wherechildren were marching in Kelly
Ingram Park, and that was duringthe time when the police,
commissioner Bull Connor, sickthe dogs in the fire hoses on
children.
And so that happened in May.
And then in August of 1963,august 28, Dr King and many in
(05:27):
the country had the March onWashington for Jobs and and
Justice, and that was August 28,1963.
Six and three weeks later, 16thStreet Baptist Church was bombed
by the Ku Klux Klan and it tookthe lives of Denise McNair and
Addie Mae Collins and CarolRobinson and Cynthia Wesley, and
(05:52):
the bomb also injured SarahCollins, who was Addie's sister,
and she lost her eyes.
What some folks may not know isthat at night black boys were
also killed Johnny Robinson, whowas killed by the police, and
James Ward, who was killed by agroup of white boys.
And so, being in thatenvironment and being a block
(06:17):
away from the from 16th Streetwhen it was bombed.
We certainly felt the impact ofthat.
Of course, when it was bombedthe whole area could feel the
impact.
And then from our churchrunning towards 16th Street and
came back and told us not to goup there because the church had
been bombed.
(06:37):
And like the folks 16th Streetwho were preparing for youth day
and were in the basement of thechurch getting ready, we also
were in our church basementgetting ready for going through
our assembly in our SundaySchool.
I remember feeling a sense ofrage and incredible sadness I
(07:01):
mean rage and fear and I thinkthat the bombing of the church
really solidified for me thenotion that I personally had to
do my part to have this not everhappen again and that
eventually led to my doing thework that I'm doing now.
I share that in part because afew days ago was the 60th
(07:26):
commemoration of the bombing at16th Street and Dr Eddie Glaub,
who's a Princeton professor,spoke eloquently about the
importance telling the truth andcontinuing to do the work and
honoring our humanity.
And then, on the day of theSeptember 15th, associate
(07:50):
Justice Ketanji Brown Jacksonwas a keynote speaker and talked
about even though folks in thiscurrent age are uncomfortable
talking about race and otherkinds of differences, that we
had to keep talking about it,that we can't erase the history
because we still have work to do60 years later.
(08:12):
So in some ways, I think abouthow we in our country take two
steps forward, because, afterthe bombing, the Voting Rights
Act and the Civil Rights Actwere passed in 1964 and 65.
And yet we're in 2023, facedwith folks who say you know, we
(08:35):
don't need to talk about race,we don't need to talk about that
history anymore because itmakes folks uncomfortable.
So that really is a way ofsaying why I continue to do the
work that I do.
Leena (08:47):
Yeah, how old were you when that happened, when the
bombing happened?
Deborah (08:52):
I was 12.
Leena (08:53):
Okay, and you said that you were relatively insulated
from the things that werehappening around you at the time
.
So was the bombing, the moment,that changed that for you?
Deborah (09:07):
Yeah, because our communities were very aware of
what was going on and so theydid all they could to protect us
and to keep us insulated fromthe hate.
And even though we were awareof it and we had fathers and
grandfathers who had rifles, youknow, in their homes their goal
was to keep us as safe aspossible and to not create scare
(09:30):
, and that's they weresuccessful in doing that.
For the most part.
I've talked to other friendswho, you know, had similar
experience and talked about whattheir parents did to ensure
that they didn't experienceracism.
The community I grew up in waspredominantly black and we had
white merchants in the communityand they, you know, they were
(09:53):
really cool folks.
They weren't ugly or anythinglike that, and yet we were aware
of what was going on in thelarger world.
Leena (10:01):
And what I remember.
There was a lot happening inBirmingham at the time.
I think one of the things thatreally struck me, Deborah, was
how there was this entireneighborhood that was nicknamed
Dynamite Hill.
Deborah (10:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, Dynamite Hill Center Street, which is
where Dr King's brother, AT King, lived, and actually where
Angela Davis's family lived andother prominent African
Americans, and it was acommunity that was all white
until black folks startedintegrating it.
(10:32):
So it really, I feel wastargeted after the integration
and all these prominent blackfolks started to move there and
because Dr King's home wasbombed and there were other acts
of devastation, they named itDynamite Hill.
Leena (10:49):
What do you remember about the Children's Crusade,
both in how it happened and thenthe kind of violence that it
was beset with?
Deborah (10:57):
So what was interesting and I never asked the question
of my parents my parents allowedme to move to California in the
summer of 1962.
And I was there for a year andI came back to Birmingham in
June of 1963.
(11:17):
So the story I tell myself isthat my mom and dad allowed me
to go because they knew I'd beright there in the streets with
everybody else.
So I actually did notphysically participate in the
Children's Crusade and with thedogs and the fire hoses.
So just want to note that.
And I actually talked to otherfriends whose parents said you
(11:40):
better be more scared of me thanyou are of going out there
protesting because I will hurtyou if you go out there.
I had a friend who considershimself a foot soldier who said
I was more scared of my mamathan I was of going out
protesting.
And there were folks whoclearly did that.
Janice Kelsey had just had aconversation with Janice about
(12:05):
her mom told her don't you go inthat march and you better go to
school.
And Janice said I am going toschool.
What she didn't say to her momis and I'm not going to stay,
but I'm going to school, I'mgoing to do exactly what you
have to do.
And Janice was one of thehundreds of folks who got put in
(12:29):
jail for four days and then theschool system suspended all
those kids who had been arrestedand it took I'm saying it act
of Congress.
It took a lot to even get themenrolled back in school just
because they participated in themarches.
Yeah, it was one.
(12:50):
The Bull Connor was determinedthat he was going to rule
Birmingham and that nothingwould get in the way of it.
The unfortunate, unfortunatething is that when the 16th
Street Baptist Church was bombedit reverberated around the
(13:11):
world and folks were like wait aminute.
And I remember John Kennedy andothers were saying wait a
minute, congress has gone toofar, you're killing kids now and
we can't allow that.
That's not who we see ourselvesto be as a country, so we've
got to do something about it.
Significant for me too in 1963,the bombing of 16th Street
(13:36):
happened in September 15, 1963.
John F Kennedy was killedNovember 22, 1963.
So I'm just connecting the dotsfor those dates.
What a year In 1963.
And like, Dr King wasn't killeduntil 1968.
Malcolm X, 1965.
(13:59):
So that's for me significantthat not only the four little
girls who were killed, you gotthe president of the United
States, who was killed that sameyear.
Leena (14:10):
You must remember that day too.
Deborah (14:12):
Oh yeah, I was in seventh grade.
We were in Miss Beans class.
I was in elementary school andthey came out over the
loudspeaker that PresidentKennedy had been killed and I
remember getting reallyviolently ill because for me you
know he was a good guy and itdisrupted yeah, it disrupted the
(14:36):
whole school and I remembergoing to the restroom crying
that I couldn't believe thatsomeone would kill him.
So there's a lot of violence in1963 and in other years and
particularly in 1963.
Leena (14:55):
I mean, that was just so soon after the 16th Street
church bombing as well.
Deborah (15:01):
Yeah, and that's how it's trying to connect the dots.
You know, when Dr King andShuttlesworth worth and others
you know went and said we wantto have a march and the city
leaders said no in May, and thenthey said we're going to do it
anyway.
So May 2nd and 3rd, that wasthe Children's Crusade.
While it was incredibly Painfulto watch the dogs, the fire
(15:29):
hoses, it also was a price thatthose children paid to have the
world say wait a minute, enoughis enough, and then to have the
March on Washington August 28,two months later.
I'm and I remember my uncle wholived in California, the one I
(15:49):
stayed with, actually went tothe March on Washington and
there were just like millions ofpeople there.
So that also, I'm suspecting,was another signal that we're
not gonna tolerate this kind oftreatment anymore and people
across race, racial differences,other differences, religious
(16:12):
differences, showed up inWashington and Then, three weeks
late, response I say it was.
The response was the bombing inSeptember.
Leena (16:24):
So two steps for one step back you doing this work now
professionally as a consultant,and I'm curious how you started,
how you started yourinvolvement in getting
politically active or doing antioppression and anti racism work
.
Deborah (16:41):
I will say that I was aware that I, along with a lot
of other people, weretraumatized by what happened in
1960s, and there is a way inwhich there wasn't Support
available for dealing with thetrauma, and so we, as kids,
handle it in our own ways.
(17:02):
And I remember, when the afrocame out and I'm black and I'm
proud, and Black Panthers andAngela Davis was a part of you
know, just you know, sayingwe're not gonna take this
anymore by any means necessary,Malcolm X that I was scared.
(17:23):
So while when the bombinghappened I was filled with rage
and fear, I'm still carryingthat rage and fear.
I graduated high school in '69,so several years later, and so
the manifestation of it for mewas I was scared to wear an afro
.
I Was scared that if I wore anafro, that folks would think I
(17:45):
was one of those radical people,and so it was only when I got
out of high school and went awayto college I was like, forget
this mess, I can wear an afro.
And so I think that's part ofhealing the layers on the onion
and really coming to terms withthe trauma of having been there
(18:08):
and trying to be protective ofmyself and my family by being
kind of a model student anddoing what I needed to do to get
into college.
And when I went away to collegeI said you know, I can do this,
I can wear an afro.
Most significant was in the 70s.
(18:28):
I Was had finished college andmoved back to Birmingham, got a
job at Miles College, which is ahistorically black college, and
I was hired at Miles, for itwas a federal program that
supported communities who weredesegregating their schools.
(18:50):
So I had come to miles to workin this program and do workshops
and trainings for JeffersonCounty and other school systems
in the area.
So that was my first kind offormal way of addressing issues
of Race and other kinds ofdifferences.
It was through my work at Milesin the Jefferson County school
(19:13):
system.
I think the other thing interms of that work at miles was
in I think it was 1976 we got arequest, we got an invitation
actually to join other HBCUcolleges from throughout the
(19:34):
southeast to be a part of aprogram that was teaching
Transactional analysis andsocial change theory, and this
grant from the Lilly FoundationWas given to the Southeast
Institute, which is in chapter,still exists today in Chapel
(19:55):
Hill, North Carolina, and themain person who was working with
there were seven or eighthistorically black colleges Was
Jo Lewis, Jo Bowen Lewis, whohits the mentor for many folks
when they issued the invitation.
Then they asked if there werefolks on the campus who were
(20:17):
interested in participating inthis two-year program and I said
absolutely so we would do thisweekend retreats.
That's how I met Jo and thiswas an before visions actually
was even formed in 1976.
And then Van joins, who is thehead of the Southeast Institute
and then Norman James, who's ablack guy, who was a professor
(20:39):
in Minnesota.
So they will come down likeonce a month to do these
essentially what we do invisions with Teaching TA theory
and doing our own personal workin service of how do we support
historically black Schools andcommunities?
First we have to address thetrauma that's still present in
(21:00):
our own lives.
I thought it was a brilliantidea, hmm, so we went to your
program and we would spend acouple of weeks in the summer in
Chapel Hill, you know, doingdeeper dives with Jo.
She and I became friends.
I also during that that timeperiod or a little bit later, at
Wakesa that's a mojo whoactually are have a relationship
(21:23):
with Val and Angela and theyknew each other at Chapel Hill.
Mm-hmm, wakesa for many yearswas a visions consultant and for
me I think Jo had a tremendousinfluence because she was using
her skills as a clinician to dosocial justice work.
It's really greatly influencedby Jo Lewis and her clinical
(21:45):
skills and her commitment tosocial justice.
And what was real clear is thatdoing social justice work can
take many forms.
Mm-hmm, you can be marching inthe street, you can do education
, you know.
It can have a religious focus,and so it was.
It was really powerful to say,oh, I can use my or use clinical
(22:10):
skills to help the movement.
For it, I will say that myundergraduate degree is in
sociology.
Sociology with a minor incounseling and then I have a
master's in counseling andguidance and then a doctorate in
Higher Education with a minorin psychology.
So Jo clearly influenced I mean, I had my, my BA before meeting
(22:34):
her, but I clearly wasinfluenced by you know how can I
support folks as they are ontheir journey to making sense of
what have, of the traumas thathappened to them, and and she
definitely was a key for saying,okay, this can work.
So I still was at Miles Collegeand decided to leave miles in
(22:58):
1986 and form a consulting firmwith a couple of other folks.
And we were together for acouple of years and Jo and I
were in touch back and forth andso I was sharing with her that
I really was looking for acommunity to continue to do this
work.
And she said why don't youconsider coming to visions?
(23:19):
And I also got thatencouragement from what Wakessa,
because they were, you know,both heavily involved.
And so in 1989 I went into mytraining to become a business
consultant and I think we werein North Carolina when I had my
first session.
But I Was really thankfulbecause I really wanted to be in
(23:44):
a community and I had a littlebit of that at miles, and Yet it
wasn't enough of what I wantedto see happen in terms of the
work.
So it was a joy to be To do theprep work.
I needed to become a visionconsultant and, if my dates are
correct, I became a consultantin 1991 and Wow and then became
(24:10):
a part-time staff person becauseI was really good at proposal
development.
Leena (24:16):
Yeah, they what yeah?
I know experience that part ofyou?
Deborah (24:19):
Yeah, and because of my background, my work was
generally with educationalinstitutions or nonprofits,
institutions of higher ed,governmental entities and Then,
what is it that has led you to?
Leena (24:36):
I mean, been with visions for a good while now 30, 30
years, 32, 2 years yeah, whatkeeps you coming back?
Deborah (24:46):
There's several things.
One I absolutely believe in thevisions model, in the framework
, because it makes sense to mein terms of my own personal work
and as I've been working withindividuals and organizations.
It's a brilliant model andframework.
Leena (25:03):
So I love it.
Deborah (25:03):
I think the second thing that keeps me is the sense
of community.
Being a member of the visionscommunity requires that each of
us do our own personal growthwork to examine our own stuff,
because I'm clear that I cannotinvite folks to be on this
journey of creating a moreequitable and diverse society
(25:27):
unless I'm willing tocontinually do my own work.
So that's important to me.
And visions, like any otherorganization, has its bumps in
terms of relationships, etc, etc.
And I think that one of thethings that we also have is a
(25:49):
structure, is a way ofaddressing those issues, and I
think that's a really importantpiece.
Sometimes we do that betterthan other times and it is what
it is, because we're human.
Leena (26:02):
So that leads into one of my other questions what has
been some of your biggestlessons, or maybe your biggest
growth areas?
Have you, as you've done, thiswork, ah?
Deborah (26:13):
I think for me, the biggest growth areas are.
The biggest lessons are thatthe work is ongoing, it's a
lifelong process and that Idon't envision that it will be
completed in my lifetime.
I mentioned earlier about howwe as a country take two steps
(26:36):
forward and one step back.
Sometimes it feels like we'retaking two steps forward and
three steps back, given morerecently, the desire to erase
history, particularly AfricanAmerican history.
That's really painful.
The other lesson for me is thatI use the analogy that we're
(26:59):
all in this ocean and that we'rein different folks folks based
on race, ethnicity, genderidentity, religion, other
differences and to really beaware that we're in this ocean
together so we could be impactedby just being in the ocean.
I along with that.
(27:22):
One of my favorite quotes you'veheard me say it before is by Dr
King, who says that we'recaught up in a web of mutuality.
What affects one of us directlyaffects all of us directly.
I often want to know, or invitefolks to know, why is it in
your own best interest to createan environment where everyone's
(27:44):
humanity can be honored andthat folks do what they do
because it's in their own bestinterest?
Now it currently may feel likethe best interest is to keep
this power dynamic going, thebetter than less, than dynamic
going In the end, to the degreethat you keep the divisiveness,
(28:05):
it's going to impact you, it'sgoing to impact your children
and generations ahead.
Those are some of the things Ithink the other and I heard Dr
Glaub and Justice Kataji BrownJackson both either say directly
or allude to telling the truthand speaking truth to power
(28:27):
while honoring our humanity,that our discomfort is not an
excuse for destroying oneanother, and that we really have
to keep on sending that message.
Saying that message is doingwhat we need to do to build
alliances and coalitions so thatfolks figure out wait a minute,
(28:49):
this is divisiveness across thedifferences.
Actually, it's not working forme.
What am I willing to dodifferently to ensure that it
works for me and everybody else?
Yeah, I think the final thingI'll say about that and a noted
article on whose shoulders Istand that the price that I pay
(29:11):
for doing this work is smallcompared to others who have done
the work.
One of my favorite folks isFannie Lou Hamer, mississippi
sharecropper, who said I'm sickand tired of being sick and
tired.
She got up and did somethingand made a difference.
There are women throughouthistory who have done that, so
those are my role models.
(29:33):
When I get tired and when asense of hopelessness comes, I
really have learned that I haveto have a community that can
support me as we support oneanother in our ability to keep
on keeping.
So those are some of thelessons that I've learned over
(29:53):
the years.
And I still get tired.
So self care I think it's alsoan important piece of doing this
work.
That's the emotionally draining.
Leena (30:07):
What does self caring look like for you?
Deborah (30:10):
Having a sense of community.
I'm aware that, while I'mextroverted in the work that I
do as facilitator, that I'mactually an introvert, and
that's becoming clearer andclearer.
Exactly, and so just beingaware of my own emotional,
(30:34):
psychological needs, puttingmyself in places where I can
connect with other communities,whether it's my church or family
or whatever that's why the tripto Birmingham was so good.
It's because it connected mewith communities, so it's like,
okay, surround yourself withfolks that can support you and
(30:56):
that you can support them and bea part of different communities
.
I'm aware that that's becomingincreasingly important, in part
because the vision's communityis changing so much and because
I am an elder and there areyounger younger in terms of age
and other differencesconsultants, and that those of
(31:17):
us who are in the elder groupare not going to be doing this
work forever and ever, and soit's making that transition.
That's also, I think, a part ofreally being clear about what a
self-care look like in themidst of leaving a community
that you've spent years in.
Leena (31:37):
I was thinking as you were talking earlier.
One of the profound things thatI've experienced at Visions is
the way that the work we do is.
We help people buildrelationship across difference.
And this is very much true inour consultant community.
And I think about when you andI first met and I was assigned
to your consult.
(31:58):
I think I was there with you fora week doing just morning and
afternoon trainings for thisgroup and I was like I remember
I took a minute.
I was like okay, I think Ithink Denver's like a little
wary of me and like you know,kind of like trying to suss me
out here and like okay, and Ithink my moment of breaking the
ice with you was when you toldme that you hadn't slept very
(32:20):
well the night before.
I was like why is that, debra?
And you're like well, I got atext at 2am.
I was like Debra, is your donot disturb on your phone active
?
And you're like it is not.
And I was like give me yourphone and I set you up with do
not disturb, do you remember?
That's right.
I remember that and I still usethe do not disturb.
(32:40):
I am not available from 10am to9am in the morning, that's
right.
Yeah, yeah, I think you'reright.
I think it took a minute and Ithink that, for me, was part of
my like I don't know this woman.
That not that I had it, youknow, negative feelings about
you or anything.
It's like okay, yeah, it took aminute.
(33:03):
I'm glad I we took the timebecause I so value you are what
you bring to the table and as Ithink more about it, probably
I'm imagining, knowing me, thatit grew out of my own scare.
I'm like I don't know thisperson and what does this mean?
(33:23):
And I knew that you were smartas hell.
I knew that and that you hadyour own way of being and doing
it.
And I remember when we wereworking with what was it?
That group of faculty and Icouldn't do it for some reason
and we had done one together andthen I think Sarah Kayton did
(33:45):
the other one with you.
Something happened thatcouldn't do it and that for me
was like this woman knows whatshe's doing.
Let me just chill out.
I appreciate that that vote of confidence and then I
think what really cinched it waswhen we developed interactive
guidelines for that at onecompany, the tech company.
(34:06):
I had a blast with that and I'mstill teaching guidelines like
that.
The next question is what issomething that you want to teach
and this is open-ended.
It could be that you want toteach to clients and trainees,
or generations of consultantsthat are coming up and doing
this work, or just peopleinvolved in social justice work
in general.
Deborah (34:27):
I certainly would want to continue to use vision's
model and framework for workwith clients and with trainees
and the coming generation ofconsultants.
I also am seeing younger folks40, 30, who are doing a lot of
(34:47):
social justice work I saw thatwhen I was in Birmingham who
have connected withorganizations that focus on
housing or other issues, and Ireally would like to spend some
time working with folks who havecreated CDCs or other entities
where they're working in thecommunity and teach the vision's
(35:08):
model and framework.
That's really.
I think there are lots of youngfolks who are doing great and
wonderful things and it would begreat to work with them using
the vision's model and frameworkas they are building
communities in their own areasof work.
I mean, there are a lot of themin Charlotte who work with
(35:30):
neighborhood development andother community-based and it
would be wonderful for them tohave vision's model and
framework as they do their work.
Leena (35:41):
Fantastic.
And then, what is somethingthat you hope to see in the
world?
Deborah (35:48):
I would hope to see a time when we don't have to do
this work.
I know that's.
I would hope to see a world inwhich folks didn't feel like
they had to maintain this betterthan less than dynamic for
their own safety, that we createa world where folks can really
(36:13):
talk about what they're madabout, what they're sad about,
what they're scared about,because I believe at the core of
the power dynamics is fiercefeelings that aren't being
addressed, about their ownhumanity, as I think about proud
boys and insurrection and whitesupremacy.
(36:34):
It's like, okay, in addition tothat being about maintaining
some sense of self, what are youmad about, sad about, scared
about that you would go to theselevels to disenfranchise other
people.
A world where we speak truth topower and we also do more and
more work on having folksunderstand their feelings and
(36:59):
being in touch with theirfeelings.
I think that we as a countryhave traumatized tremendously
that if we don't get to a placewhere folks can figure out what
they're mad about, sad about,scared about that, there will be
such a sense of hopelessnessthat we won't have the ability
(37:19):
to keep on keeping on doing thework.
That feels really scary,because I know there are folks
who are on the edge ofhopelessness just because of the
rhetoric that's going on.
I want us to counteract thatand talk about it.
Okay, so what are you eating?
(37:41):
And for me it goes back to thatwell, you're in this ocean,
okay, so what are you needing tobe able to keep on keeping on
without destroying other folks?
What are you scared about?
What's the danger?
What's the threat?
What's the risk, such that youdon't hurt other folks who don't
(38:04):
look like you and, in theprocess, yourself and your
generations going forward.
Leena (38:11):
I appreciate, Deborah, how you went to feelings for
this.
Now people who are listening tothis are not going to see, but
in the video, in the backgroundof your video, is a framed,
enlarged feeling wheel which Ialways chuckle at when I see.
I appreciate that you went tofeelings and surfacing and
(38:34):
really acknowledging the role offeelings and everything that's
happening and the importance ofaddressing them in working to
move that to something somewhereelse.
I'm curious if you're willingand this is like a spontaneous
question, so feel free to passwhat the feelings framework like
, how it was very impactful forme, right?
(38:57):
And I'm wondering if youremember want to speak to how it
was when you were firstintroduced to it.
Deborah (39:06):
Oh, I think it was.
I thought it was there's.
This is a Southern expression.
It was the best thing sincesliced bread.
You may not get that.
That's a I don't know.
Leena (39:19):
I've heard that one.
Deborah (39:20):
Okay, so we're going to start at the part of the model,
the three dimensions of change.
That change happensindividually and
organizationally to the degreethat we address the cognitive,
the thinking, provideinformation, we address behavior
actions and generally in thiswork my experience has been that
(39:44):
consultants focus on thecognitive and the behavioral and
don't get into the affective orthe feelings pieces.
Leena (39:51):
So you're talking about other approaches like not
visions approaches, Otherapproaches when you say other
approach.
Deborah (39:56):
Yeah, that right.
Don't don't address the affectof the climate, the emotions of
the, the yeah, the feelings.
And what I often say is that ifyou address the cognitive and
the behavioral, what you willhave is folks doing stuff that's
politically correct for a hotminute and then something in
(40:18):
terms of their feelings may Isay it's scared will erupt
inside them or in the climate ofthe organization and they'll
have to figure out what to dowith it.
When I thought through, thoughtthrough the three dimensions
and thought about how otherconsultants sometimes approach
the work with the cognitive andthe, the behavioral, it allowed
(40:42):
me to focus more closely on well, what does it mean for us to
really take on the affect?
And I got so excited because I'mlike this is where the work is,
this is where change happensand if we can create the safe
space for feelings to be okay tofeel, then I think that we have
(41:04):
opportunities to do evengreater work.
because the truth is and I'vesaid this before if feelings
don't come out straight, nevercome out crooked and they're
going to come out, and so Iwould love for us to even spend
more time, you know, with theaffective part of it, and I
think folks are becoming moreand more aware of the importance
(41:27):
of that as they talk aboutmental health and the trauma
that we've experienced.
I know Dr Glaup talked about itthe other night, about the need
to really in tune with what isgoing on inside of us in terms
of their feelings.
So I can't say enough about thevalue, both therapeutically for
our mental health, for ourwell-being individually as as
(41:49):
communities, as a country, forus to really create space for
folks to say I'm mad about, I'msad about, I'm scared about, and
have some tools more addressingthose.
Leena (42:00):
Yeah.
Deborah (42:02):
And addition.
So much not to do that.
It's a long haul and I'm gladwe're talking about it in terms
of trauma and mental health.
Thank you.
Leena (42:11):
I think you hit the nail on the head.
That's the vision's differencewith what you said about people
doing certain things, acting incertain ways because it's
politically correct, but then itbusting out in some other way
because they're uncomfortableand feel threatened and scared
and don't know how to how todeal with that.
Thank you for that.
Deborah (42:29):
Absolutely.
I mean because you know we getmessages, as you know, and catch
messages about what it's okayto feel and what it's not okay
to feel, and you know that'sdifferent across race, ethnicity
, gender, and I'm feeling that,I think, is a tremendous tool
for for healing, which is a partof what I think is required to
(42:52):
shift the dynamics across ourdifferences.
Leena (42:55):
Wonderful.
So earlier this year you and Iand our wonderful colleagues Ann
Ealy facilitated a workshop andtour of the state where you
grew up.
We did various sites on theAlabama Civil Rights Trail.
We're the originator of thatand I had the privilege of
(43:16):
accompanying you on that.
Would you talk about how youoriginated that and a little bit
about what we did and how youwere thinking about it?
Deborah (43:24):
Well, first, I was really excited that you were
excited about you at Zan and youdoing the trip, and for me it
was an opportunity to take folkshome and to share a bit of
Alabama's history.
And part of that was because Iremember growing up and even as
(43:49):
an adult, people would talkabout Alabama like it was some
third planet and not account forthe fact that the same thing
that's going on in Alabama isgoing on in California, in
Massachusetts and other parts.
But because we had so muchcivil rights strength in Alabama
(44:09):
, in Birmingham, in Montgomeryand in Selma, alabama became the
whipping post, if you will, forall that is wrong and that all
problems around racism reside inAlabama or Mississippi.
So for me it was an opportunityto say that is true.
(44:30):
And what is also true is thatwe are doing the work to address
the legacy and the history ofracism and white supremacy in
Alabama, and I want wanted folksto really understand at a
deeper level, not just theReddit talking points, but to
(44:51):
really see a state and citieswhere folks were doing the work.
So, yeah, so I was taking youall to my home.
Leena (45:02):
So the tour is based in Montgomery and we took a long
day trip to Birmingham and ahalf day trip to Selma.
Do you want to talk about someof the sites that we prioritize
in each place?
Deborah (45:15):
So we started the tour and our base was in Montgomery,
and Montgomery was the seat ofConfederacy.
So that's significant and Ithink Brian Stevens and others
have done tremendous work inbuilding what some call the
lynching museum, which is amuseum that houses soil from
(45:38):
folks who were lynched andreally shows history of lynching
in Alabama.
It's an incredible exhibit ofthe ways in which folks were
treated so badly, and a part ofthe EJI, which is the Equal
Justice Initiative, is the Peaceand Justice Memorial, where
(45:59):
there are slabs from variousstates and counties that have
the names of folks who werelynched which is powerful, and
so I think the EJI both thelynching museum and the memorial
provides an opportunity for usto see up close and personal the
(46:23):
impact of slavery and thetreatment of African Americans.
Leena (46:28):
I have to say that the EJI, the museum in particular
and I say this as somebody whodoes this work from my
particular location, I say thisas a former museum professional
and I say this as a historian itis the most incredible museum I
have ever been to.
I walked into it the first timeyou and I were in Montgomery
(46:50):
when we were pitching to aclient.
I walked into it and I walkedout of it not the same person.
It was so profound and powerfuland I think one of the things
that got me that first timethere were other things that got
me the second time and I was ablubbering mess.
You saw me.
The thing that got me the firsttime was when they showed a map
(47:10):
of where the EJI was, showed themain commercial strip, which
was where the thing was located,where the museum was located,
and showed this was an auctionhouse.
This was a bank that profitedoff the slave trade.
This is an insurance companythat facilitated all of this
happening and it was right thereand we were right there.
(47:35):
It was just mind blowing howembedded we were in that, just
in that history.
So anyway, that's Montgomery.
Deborah (47:48):
That is Montgomery, and there's much more to see in
Montgomery because, of course,rosa Parks statue is in the
center of Montgomery, the churchthat Dr King pastored, which is
right down the street from theCapitol, and in Birmingham.
For the day trip we went to theBirmingham Civil Rights
(48:13):
Institute, which is anothermuseum that highlights
Birmingham story of the CivilRights Movement, and across the
street from it is Kelly IngramPark, which now houses statues
and other memorabilia thathighlighted the place where Will
(48:34):
Connor sicked the dogs and thefire hoses on the kids during
the children's crusade, and oneof the most powerful statues is
a statue of the four littlegirls, which can see from where
the statue is placed.
It directly looks into 16thStreet Baptist Church which is
(48:55):
on corner.
And then, of course, I sharedabout St Paul, which is the
church I grew up in and wasright next door, 16th Street,
and I also will say that theentering 16th Street Baptist
Church physically and seeing theway in which they have
chronicled what happened wasreally powerful.
(49:16):
So one of the things I reallyappreciate about Birmingham is
how they are coordinating all ofthese buildings and statues
within what's called theBirmingham Civil Rights District
, which was President Obama wasdesignated as a historical
district.
(49:36):
And when we go back we also geta chance to go to the A G
Gaston Motel, which is wherebillionaire AG Gaston
businessmen and where Dr Kingand others stayed during the
Civil Rights here because shecouldn't stay anyplace else, and
which was bombed as a way tokill them and they didn't.
(49:57):
And then, of course, visitingDynamite Hill where Dr King's
brother lived and otherprominent Arthur Shores was a
prominent attorney, Angela Davis, her family lived on Dynamite
Hill and then visiting the BlackBusiness District which is
adjacent to the park and thearea.
(50:20):
So four or five blocks.
What you see is Birmingham andhow it grew to and responded to
the to the racism and thedevastation of the sixties.
So that's for him.
And then we went to Selma, whichis powerful and special in its
(50:42):
own right.
Black Panthers and othersactually spent time in Selma and
what it's most famous for isthe march across the Edmund
Pettus Bridge.
The young man was killed and DrKing and John Lewis and others
said we're going to march fromSelma to Montgomery, which is
(51:07):
about 55 miles to the statecapital, and it took tries
before they were able to do that.
And and John Lewis tells thestory about how he was, you know
, beaten and their clips butyeah, and it took.
It took a minute to get toMontgomery and until the federal
(51:29):
government said, ok, we'llprovide protection for you to
get there.
And it was only after thefederal government said we'll
provide protection that theywere able to make the trek to
Montgomery and stand before thecapital, the seat of Confederacy
, and essentially say no more,this has to end.
(51:49):
And so tying all those piecestogether those three cities
really does paint, think, apowerful picture of Alabama and
how the various cities,including the three that we're
visiting, are working to ensurethat the history doesn't get
lost.
(52:10):
And that truth is for all to see, and that's why I'm excited
that we're going again in 2024.
I think the combination of thesites and our using the vision's
tools to teach and process whatfolks are seeing is a way to
(52:34):
invite folks to keep on keepingon undergirded history, and so
the combination of, in this case, and having that history again,
given what's going on currentlyas history is trying to be
erased, is critical.
So I'm excited that we can helpbegin.
Leena (52:54):
And then, while this tour is happening, we also scheduled
time to teach the fundamentalsof the vision's model.
Deborah (53:02):
And the visual what it was, and then using the tools to
process, including processingfeelings, is really an important
piece to supporting individualswho come in their own personal
work around these issues and toalso support them as they
(53:26):
support others, given they dothemselves.
And I'm aware that, for example, one of the folks that we had
this time was in education andhe had planned.
He had planned to bringstudents down, and this is a
great opportunity to bringstudents and or to come with
your faculty or staff orwhatever, and learn this history
(53:48):
so that you can support whatyour students need to learn in
their schools, given the bandbooks idea.
So come on down.
Leena (53:59):
Deborah, thank you so much for coming on here and
sharing your story and sharingyour insights.
I have been deeply appreciativeand grateful to be able to be
in community with you, to beable to be your colleague and to
call you a friend.
So thank you so much for thetime.
Deborah (54:17):
And I want to thank you .
You are one awesome woman,human being, and I deeply
appreciate you and the work thatyou do and the way in which you
care about this work and thepeople that you work with, and I
am grateful to be on thisjourney with you.
So thank you for being you,thank you.
Leena (54:39):
Deborah, if you're curious to learn more about Dr
Walker's work experiences or thetour that she's leading on the
Alabama Civil Rights Trail inMay 2024, I've included links in
the show notes.
If you want to know more aboutus or about what's coming up at
Visions, there are links andresources in the notes as well.
You can find us on Facebook,Instagram and LinkedIn, as well
(55:00):
as at our website, www.
visions-inc.
org.
Thank you so much for listening.
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a podcast
about transformative change,equity and working against
oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with VISIONS Inc.
Welcome, hi, everybody.
I'm sitting here with theinimitable, the fabulous, the
(00:22):
wonderful Dr.
Deborah J.
Walker, colleague and mentorand friend, who I've had the
pleasure of working with closelyover the past few years that
I've been at Visions.
Deborah, hello, welcome, thankyou.
Would you introduce yourself?
Deborah (00:36):
Sure, so I'm Deborah Walker.
I have well.
I started my journey withVISIONS in 1989 and have been a
Visions consultant and served onthe staff since that time, and
originally from BirminghamAlabama.
Leena (00:52):
Wonderful.
So, Deborah, among the thingswe've done together, one of them
is the Visions on the CivilRights Trail tour and workshop
that took place earlier thisyear 2023, in different cities
in Alabama.
So we're going to talk aboutthat in a minute.
And first, so we get a sense ofwhat your story is, tell me a
(01:12):
little bit about how you grew up.
I know you were born in Alabamaand I had the privilege of
seeing some of the places thatyou came from.
Deborah (01:20):
Yeah, so, as a note that I grew up in Birmingham,
Alabama, in the 60s, I grew upin a working class community
called Titusville and I want tosay a little bit about my family
and the community, kind of setthe context.
So my mom for many years workedas a domestic and then she
(01:41):
became head of nutrition for adaycare center and that's how
she ended her career.
New field of daycare center.
My mom also was a midwife, soshe was a very talented woman.
My dad owned his own businessand he later was employed at
John's Right Out,, which was awhite funeral home.
All of this will havesignificance later.
(02:02):
I was the oldest of threechildren, the only girl, and I
had two younger brothers and interms of the community I grew up
in, I'd say that particularlyin the African American culture
we often say it takes a village,and I lived in a village, in my
community.
(02:22):
Folks took care of one anotherand always looked out for one
another and in many ways I feltisolated from the racism that
was clearly in play in the 50sand the 60s.
Also, we'll say that mycommunity was also my church.
I grew up in St Paul UnitedMethodist Church and the church
(02:46):
was a part of a larger communityand had folks who were
educators, school principals,and they really worked to do
what they needed to do to ensurethat we as children needed
spiritually, emotionally andeducationally Note the church
(03:07):
community.
Because St Paul was involved inthe civil rights movement early
on in the late 50s, early 60sand physically, st Paul is still
located one block from 16thStreet Baptist Church where the
four little girls were killed inSeptember 15, 1963.
(03:32):
In fact we just had a 60thcommemoration of that.
So I want to say that becauseSt Paul and 16th Street and
other churches in the areareally formed communities for us
to be and to feel safe,although that didn't happen on
September 15, 1963.
(03:54):
And so my growing up in avillage and growing up with
folks that I knew cared about medeeply in the face of the
racism that was prevalent wasreally powerful and greatly
influenced who I am and what Ido today.
And I wanted to say a little bitmore about 16th Street within
(04:18):
the context racism and how itwas playing out in Birmingham,
alabama.
I'm realizing that in May of1963, Dr King wrote the letter
from Birmingham jail and heactually came to Birmingham
because Fred Shuttlesworth, whowas the leader of the movement
(04:41):
in Alabama, asked him to comeand help.
So he came and, of course, inMay of 1963, he wrote this
letter from the Birmingham jailbecause he didn't want to stop
protesting and so they jailedhim.
The date is significant becausealso in May there was the
(05:02):
Children's Crusade, wherechildren were marching in Kelly
Ingram Park, and that was duringthe time when the police,
commissioner Bull Connor, sickthe dogs in the fire hoses on
children.
And so that happened in May.
And then in August of 1963,august 28, Dr King and many in
(05:27):
the country had the March onWashington for Jobs and and
Justice, and that was August 28,1963.
Six and three weeks later, 16thStreet Baptist Church was bombed
by the Ku Klux Klan and it tookthe lives of Denise McNair and
Addie Mae Collins and CarolRobinson and Cynthia Wesley, and
(05:52):
the bomb also injured SarahCollins, who was Addie's sister,
and she lost her eyes.
What some folks may not know isthat at night black boys were
also killed Johnny Robinson, whowas killed by the police, and
James Ward, who was killed by agroup of white boys.
And so, being in thatenvironment and being a block
(06:17):
away from the from 16th Streetwhen it was bombed.
We certainly felt the impact ofthat.
Of course, when it was bombedthe whole area could feel the
impact.
And then from our churchrunning towards 16th Street and
came back and told us not to goup there because the church had
been bombed.
(06:37):
And like the folks 16th Streetwho were preparing for youth day
and were in the basement of thechurch getting ready, we also
were in our church basementgetting ready for going through
our assembly in our SundaySchool.
I remember feeling a sense ofrage and incredible sadness I
(07:01):
mean rage and fear and I thinkthat the bombing of the church
really solidified for me thenotion that I personally had to
do my part to have this not everhappen again and that
eventually led to my doing thework that I'm doing now.
I share that in part because afew days ago was the 60th
(07:26):
commemoration of the bombing at16th Street and Dr Eddie Glaub,
who's a Princeton professor,spoke eloquently about the
importance telling the truth andcontinuing to do the work and
honoring our humanity.
And then, on the day of theSeptember 15th, associate
(07:50):
Justice Ketanji Brown Jacksonwas a keynote speaker and talked
about even though folks in thiscurrent age are uncomfortable
talking about race and otherkinds of differences, that we
had to keep talking about it,that we can't erase the history
because we still have work to do60 years later.
(08:12):
So in some ways, I think abouthow we in our country take two
steps forward, because, afterthe bombing, the Voting Rights
Act and the Civil Rights Actwere passed in 1964 and 65.
And yet we're in 2023, facedwith folks who say you know, we
(08:35):
don't need to talk about race,we don't need to talk about that
history anymore because itmakes folks uncomfortable.
So that really is a way ofsaying why I continue to do the
work that I do.
Leena (08:47):
Yeah, how old were you when that happened, when the
bombing happened?
Deborah (08:52):
I was 12.
Leena (08:53):
Okay, and you said that you were relatively insulated
from the things that werehappening around you at the time
.
So was the bombing, the moment,that changed that for you?
Deborah (09:07):
Yeah, because our communities were very aware of
what was going on and so theydid all they could to protect us
and to keep us insulated fromthe hate.
And even though we were awareof it and we had fathers and
grandfathers who had rifles, youknow, in their homes their goal
was to keep us as safe aspossible and to not create scare
(09:30):
, and that's they weresuccessful in doing that.
For the most part.
I've talked to other friendswho, you know, had similar
experience and talked about whattheir parents did to ensure
that they didn't experienceracism.
The community I grew up in waspredominantly black and we had
white merchants in the communityand they, you know, they were
(09:53):
really cool folks.
They weren't ugly or anythinglike that, and yet we were aware
of what was going on in thelarger world.
Leena (10:01):
And what I remember.
There was a lot happening inBirmingham at the time.
I think one of the things thatreally struck me, Deborah, was
how there was this entireneighborhood that was nicknamed
Dynamite Hill.
Deborah (10:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, Dynamite Hill Center Street, which is
where Dr King's brother, AT King, lived, and actually where
Angela Davis's family lived andother prominent African
Americans, and it was acommunity that was all white
until black folks startedintegrating it.
(10:32):
So it really, I feel wastargeted after the integration
and all these prominent blackfolks started to move there and
because Dr King's home wasbombed and there were other acts
of devastation, they named itDynamite Hill.
Leena (10:49):
What do you remember about the Children's Crusade,
both in how it happened and thenthe kind of violence that it
was beset with?
Deborah (10:57):
So what was interesting and I never asked the question
of my parents my parents allowedme to move to California in the
summer of 1962.
And I was there for a year andI came back to Birmingham in
June of 1963.
(11:17):
So the story I tell myself isthat my mom and dad allowed me
to go because they knew I'd beright there in the streets with
everybody else.
So I actually did notphysically participate in the
Children's Crusade and with thedogs and the fire hoses.
So just want to note that.
And I actually talked to otherfriends whose parents said you
(11:40):
better be more scared of me thanyou are of going out there
protesting because I will hurtyou if you go out there.
I had a friend who considershimself a foot soldier who said
I was more scared of my mamathan I was of going out
protesting.
And there were folks whoclearly did that.
Janice Kelsey had just had aconversation with Janice about
(12:05):
her mom told her don't you go inthat march and you better go to
school.
And Janice said I am going toschool.
What she didn't say to her momis and I'm not going to stay,
but I'm going to school, I'mgoing to do exactly what you
have to do.
And Janice was one of thehundreds of folks who got put in
(12:29):
jail for four days and then theschool system suspended all
those kids who had been arrestedand it took I'm saying it act
of Congress.
It took a lot to even get themenrolled back in school just
because they participated in themarches.
Yeah, it was one.
(12:50):
The Bull Connor was determinedthat he was going to rule
Birmingham and that nothingwould get in the way of it.
The unfortunate, unfortunatething is that when the 16th
Street Baptist Church was bombedit reverberated around the
(13:11):
world and folks were like wait aminute.
And I remember John Kennedy andothers were saying wait a
minute, congress has gone toofar, you're killing kids now and
we can't allow that.
That's not who we see ourselvesto be as a country, so we've
got to do something about it.
Significant for me too in 1963,the bombing of 16th Street
(13:36):
happened in September 15, 1963.
John F Kennedy was killedNovember 22, 1963.
So I'm just connecting the dotsfor those dates.
What a year In 1963.
And like, Dr King wasn't killeduntil 1968.
Malcolm X, 1965.
(13:59):
So that's for me significantthat not only the four little
girls who were killed, you gotthe president of the United
States, who was killed that sameyear.
Leena (14:10):
You must remember that day too.
Deborah (14:12):
Oh yeah, I was in seventh grade.
We were in Miss Beans class.
I was in elementary school andthey came out over the
loudspeaker that PresidentKennedy had been killed and I
remember getting reallyviolently ill because for me you
know he was a good guy and itdisrupted yeah, it disrupted the
(14:36):
whole school and I remembergoing to the restroom crying
that I couldn't believe thatsomeone would kill him.
So there's a lot of violence in1963 and in other years and
particularly in 1963.
Leena (14:55):
I mean, that was just so soon after the 16th Street
church bombing as well.
Deborah (15:01):
Yeah, and that's how it's trying to connect the dots.
You know, when Dr King andShuttlesworth worth and others
you know went and said we wantto have a march and the city
leaders said no in May, and thenthey said we're going to do it
anyway.
So May 2nd and 3rd, that wasthe Children's Crusade.
While it was incredibly Painfulto watch the dogs, the fire
(15:29):
hoses, it also was a price thatthose children paid to have the
world say wait a minute, enoughis enough, and then to have the
March on Washington August 28,two months later.
I'm and I remember my uncle wholived in California, the one I
(15:49):
stayed with, actually went tothe March on Washington and
there were just like millions ofpeople there.
So that also, I'm suspecting,was another signal that we're
not gonna tolerate this kind oftreatment anymore and people
across race, racial differences,other differences, religious
(16:12):
differences, showed up inWashington and Then, three weeks
late, response I say it was.
The response was the bombing inSeptember.
Leena (16:24):
So two steps for one step back you doing this work now
professionally as a consultant,and I'm curious how you started,
how you started yourinvolvement in getting
politically active or doing antioppression and anti racism work
.
Deborah (16:41):
I will say that I was aware that I, along with a lot
of other people, weretraumatized by what happened in
1960s, and there is a way inwhich there wasn't Support
available for dealing with thetrauma, and so we, as kids,
handle it in our own ways.
(17:02):
And I remember, when the afrocame out and I'm black and I'm
proud, and Black Panthers andAngela Davis was a part of you
know, just you know, sayingwe're not gonna take this
anymore by any means necessary,Malcolm X that I was scared.
(17:23):
So while when the bombinghappened I was filled with rage
and fear, I'm still carryingthat rage and fear.
I graduated high school in '69,so several years later, and so
the manifestation of it for mewas I was scared to wear an afro
.
I Was scared that if I wore anafro, that folks would think I
(17:45):
was one of those radical people,and so it was only when I got
out of high school and went awayto college I was like, forget
this mess, I can wear an afro.
And so I think that's part ofhealing the layers on the onion
and really coming to terms withthe trauma of having been there
(18:08):
and trying to be protective ofmyself and my family by being
kind of a model student anddoing what I needed to do to get
into college.
And when I went away to collegeI said you know, I can do this,
I can wear an afro.
Most significant was in the 70s.
(18:28):
I Was had finished college andmoved back to Birmingham, got a
job at Miles College, which is ahistorically black college, and
I was hired at Miles, for itwas a federal program that
supported communities who weredesegregating their schools.
(18:50):
So I had come to miles to workin this program and do workshops
and trainings for JeffersonCounty and other school systems
in the area.
So that was my first kind offormal way of addressing issues
of Race and other kinds ofdifferences.
It was through my work at Milesin the Jefferson County school
(19:13):
system.
I think the other thing interms of that work at miles was
in I think it was 1976 we got arequest, we got an invitation
actually to join other HBCUcolleges from throughout the
(19:34):
southeast to be a part of aprogram that was teaching
Transactional analysis andsocial change theory, and this
grant from the Lilly FoundationWas given to the Southeast
Institute, which is in chapter,still exists today in Chapel
(19:55):
Hill, North Carolina, and themain person who was working with
there were seven or eighthistorically black colleges Was
Jo Lewis, Jo Bowen Lewis, whohits the mentor for many folks
when they issued the invitation.
Then they asked if there werefolks on the campus who were
(20:17):
interested in participating inthis two-year program and I said
absolutely so we would do thisweekend retreats.
That's how I met Jo and thiswas an before visions actually
was even formed in 1976.
And then Van joins, who is thehead of the Southeast Institute
and then Norman James, who's ablack guy, who was a professor
(20:39):
in Minnesota.
So they will come down likeonce a month to do these
essentially what we do invisions with Teaching TA theory
and doing our own personal workin service of how do we support
historically black Schools andcommunities?
First we have to address thetrauma that's still present in
(21:00):
our own lives.
I thought it was a brilliantidea, hmm, so we went to your
program and we would spend acouple of weeks in the summer in
Chapel Hill, you know, doingdeeper dives with Jo.
She and I became friends.
I also during that that timeperiod or a little bit later, at
Wakesa that's a mojo whoactually are have a relationship
(21:23):
with Val and Angela and theyknew each other at Chapel Hill.
Mm-hmm, wakesa for many yearswas a visions consultant and for
me I think Jo had a tremendousinfluence because she was using
her skills as a clinician to dosocial justice work.
It's really greatly influencedby Jo Lewis and her clinical
(21:45):
skills and her commitment tosocial justice.
And what was real clear is thatdoing social justice work can
take many forms.
Mm-hmm, you can be marching inthe street, you can do education
, you know.
It can have a religious focus,and so it was.
It was really powerful to say,oh, I can use my or use clinical
(22:10):
skills to help the movement.
For it, I will say that myundergraduate degree is in
sociology.
Sociology with a minor incounseling and then I have a
master's in counseling andguidance and then a doctorate in
Higher Education with a minorin psychology.
So Jo clearly influenced I mean, I had my, my BA before meeting
(22:34):
her, but I clearly wasinfluenced by you know how can I
support folks as they are ontheir journey to making sense of
what have, of the traumas thathappened to them, and and she
definitely was a key for saying,okay, this can work.
So I still was at Miles Collegeand decided to leave miles in
(22:58):
1986 and form a consulting firmwith a couple of other folks.
And we were together for acouple of years and Jo and I
were in touch back and forth andso I was sharing with her that
I really was looking for acommunity to continue to do this
work.
And she said why don't youconsider coming to visions?
(23:19):
And I also got thatencouragement from what Wakessa,
because they were, you know,both heavily involved.
And so in 1989 I went into mytraining to become a business
consultant and I think we werein North Carolina when I had my
first session.
But I Was really thankfulbecause I really wanted to be in
(23:44):
a community and I had a littlebit of that at miles, and Yet it
wasn't enough of what I wantedto see happen in terms of the
work.
So it was a joy to be To do theprep work.
I needed to become a visionconsultant and, if my dates are
correct, I became a consultantin 1991 and Wow and then became
(24:10):
a part-time staff person becauseI was really good at proposal
development.
Leena (24:16):
Yeah, they what yeah?
I know experience that part ofyou?
Deborah (24:19):
Yeah, and because of my background, my work was
generally with educationalinstitutions or nonprofits,
institutions of higher ed,governmental entities and Then,
what is it that has led you to?
Leena (24:36):
I mean, been with visions for a good while now 30, 30
years, 32, 2 years yeah, whatkeeps you coming back?
Deborah (24:46):
There's several things.
One I absolutely believe in thevisions model, in the framework
, because it makes sense to mein terms of my own personal work
and as I've been working withindividuals and organizations.
It's a brilliant model andframework.
Leena (25:03):
So I love it.
Deborah (25:03):
I think the second thing that keeps me is the sense
of community.
Being a member of the visionscommunity requires that each of
us do our own personal growthwork to examine our own stuff,
because I'm clear that I cannotinvite folks to be on this
journey of creating a moreequitable and diverse society
(25:27):
unless I'm willing tocontinually do my own work.
So that's important to me.
And visions, like any otherorganization, has its bumps in
terms of relationships, etc, etc.
And I think that one of thethings that we also have is a
(25:49):
structure, is a way ofaddressing those issues, and I
think that's a really importantpiece.
Sometimes we do that betterthan other times and it is what
it is, because we're human.
Leena (26:02):
So that leads into one of my other questions what has
been some of your biggestlessons, or maybe your biggest
growth areas?
Have you, as you've done, thiswork, ah?
Deborah (26:13):
I think for me, the biggest growth areas are.
The biggest lessons are thatthe work is ongoing, it's a
lifelong process and that Idon't envision that it will be
completed in my lifetime.
I mentioned earlier about howwe as a country take two steps
(26:36):
forward and one step back.
Sometimes it feels like we'retaking two steps forward and
three steps back, given morerecently, the desire to erase
history, particularly AfricanAmerican history.
That's really painful.
The other lesson for me is thatI use the analogy that we're
(26:59):
all in this ocean and that we'rein different folks folks based
on race, ethnicity, genderidentity, religion, other
differences and to really beaware that we're in this ocean
together so we could be impactedby just being in the ocean.
I along with that.
(27:22):
One of my favorite quotes you'veheard me say it before is by Dr
King, who says that we'recaught up in a web of mutuality.
What affects one of us directlyaffects all of us directly.
I often want to know, or invitefolks to know, why is it in
your own best interest to createan environment where everyone's
(27:44):
humanity can be honored andthat folks do what they do
because it's in their own bestinterest?
Now it currently may feel likethe best interest is to keep
this power dynamic going, thebetter than less, than dynamic
going In the end, to the degreethat you keep the divisiveness,
(28:05):
it's going to impact you, it'sgoing to impact your children
and generations ahead.
Those are some of the things Ithink the other and I heard Dr
Glaub and Justice Kataji BrownJackson both either say directly
or allude to telling the truthand speaking truth to power
(28:27):
while honoring our humanity,that our discomfort is not an
excuse for destroying oneanother, and that we really have
to keep on sending that message.
Saying that message is doingwhat we need to do to build
alliances and coalitions so thatfolks figure out wait a minute,
(28:49):
this is divisiveness across thedifferences.
Actually, it's not working forme.
What am I willing to dodifferently to ensure that it
works for me and everybody else?
Yeah, I think the final thingI'll say about that and a noted
article on whose shoulders Istand that the price that I pay
(29:11):
for doing this work is smallcompared to others who have done
the work.
One of my favorite folks isFannie Lou Hamer, mississippi
sharecropper, who said I'm sickand tired of being sick and
tired.
She got up and did somethingand made a difference.
There are women throughouthistory who have done that, so
those are my role models.
(29:33):
When I get tired and when asense of hopelessness comes, I
really have learned that I haveto have a community that can
support me as we support oneanother in our ability to keep
on keeping.
So those are some of thelessons that I've learned over
(29:53):
the years.
And I still get tired.
So self care I think it's alsoan important piece of doing this
work.
That's the emotionally draining.
Leena (30:07):
What does self caring look like for you?
Deborah (30:10):
Having a sense of community.
I'm aware that, while I'mextroverted in the work that I
do as facilitator, that I'mactually an introvert, and
that's becoming clearer andclearer.
Exactly, and so just beingaware of my own emotional,
(30:34):
psychological needs, puttingmyself in places where I can
connect with other communities,whether it's my church or family
or whatever that's why the tripto Birmingham was so good.
It's because it connected mewith communities, so it's like,
okay, surround yourself withfolks that can support you and
(30:56):
that you can support them and bea part of different communities
.
I'm aware that that's becomingincreasingly important, in part
because the vision's communityis changing so much and because
I am an elder and there areyounger younger in terms of age
and other differencesconsultants, and that those of
(31:17):
us who are in the elder groupare not going to be doing this
work forever and ever, and soit's making that transition.
That's also, I think, a part ofreally being clear about what a
self-care look like in themidst of leaving a community
that you've spent years in.
Leena (31:37):
I was thinking as you were talking earlier.
One of the profound things thatI've experienced at Visions is
the way that the work we do is.
We help people buildrelationship across difference.
And this is very much true inour consultant community.
And I think about when you andI first met and I was assigned
to your consult.
(31:58):
I think I was there with you fora week doing just morning and
afternoon trainings for thisgroup and I was like I remember
I took a minute.
I was like okay, I think Ithink Denver's like a little
wary of me and like you know,kind of like trying to suss me
out here and like okay, and Ithink my moment of breaking the
ice with you was when you toldme that you hadn't slept very
(32:20):
well the night before.
I was like why is that, debra?
And you're like well, I got atext at 2am.
I was like Debra, is your donot disturb on your phone active
?
And you're like it is not.
And I was like give me yourphone and I set you up with do
not disturb, do you remember?
That's right.
I remember that and I still usethe do not disturb.
(32:40):
I am not available from 10am to9am in the morning, that's
right.
Yeah, yeah, I think you'reright.
I think it took a minute and Ithink that, for me, was part of
my like I don't know this woman.
That not that I had it, youknow, negative feelings about
you or anything.
It's like okay, yeah, it took aminute.
(33:03):
I'm glad I we took the timebecause I so value you are what
you bring to the table and as Ithink more about it, probably
I'm imagining, knowing me, thatit grew out of my own scare.
I'm like I don't know thisperson and what does this mean?
(33:23):
And I knew that you were smartas hell.
I knew that and that you hadyour own way of being and doing
it.
And I remember when we wereworking with what was it?
That group of faculty and Icouldn't do it for some reason
and we had done one together andthen I think Sarah Kayton did
(33:45):
the other one with you.
Something happened thatcouldn't do it and that for me
was like this woman knows whatshe's doing.
Let me just chill out.
I appreciate that that vote of confidence and then I
think what really cinched it waswhen we developed interactive
guidelines for that at onecompany, the tech company.
(34:06):
I had a blast with that and I'mstill teaching guidelines like
that.
The next question is what issomething that you want to teach
and this is open-ended.
It could be that you want toteach to clients and trainees,
or generations of consultantsthat are coming up and doing
this work, or just peopleinvolved in social justice work
in general.
Deborah (34:27):
I certainly would want to continue to use vision's
model and framework for workwith clients and with trainees
and the coming generation ofconsultants.
I also am seeing younger folks40, 30, who are doing a lot of
(34:47):
social justice work I saw thatwhen I was in Birmingham who
have connected withorganizations that focus on
housing or other issues, and Ireally would like to spend some
time working with folks who havecreated CDCs or other entities
where they're working in thecommunity and teach the vision's
(35:08):
model and framework.
That's really.
I think there are lots of youngfolks who are doing great and
wonderful things and it would begreat to work with them using
the vision's model and frameworkas they are building
communities in their own areasof work.
I mean, there are a lot of themin Charlotte who work with
(35:30):
neighborhood development andother community-based and it
would be wonderful for them tohave vision's model and
framework as they do their work.
Leena (35:41):
Fantastic.
And then, what is somethingthat you hope to see in the
world?
Deborah (35:48):
I would hope to see a time when we don't have to do
this work.
I know that's.
I would hope to see a world inwhich folks didn't feel like
they had to maintain this betterthan less than dynamic for
their own safety, that we createa world where folks can really
(36:13):
talk about what they're madabout, what they're sad about,
what they're scared about,because I believe at the core of
the power dynamics is fiercefeelings that aren't being
addressed, about their ownhumanity, as I think about proud
boys and insurrection and whitesupremacy.
(36:34):
It's like, okay, in addition tothat being about maintaining
some sense of self, what are youmad about, sad about, scared
about that you would go to theselevels to disenfranchise other
people.
A world where we speak truth topower and we also do more and
more work on having folksunderstand their feelings and
(36:59):
being in touch with theirfeelings.
I think that we as a countryhave traumatized tremendously
that if we don't get to a placewhere folks can figure out what
they're mad about, sad about,scared about that, there will be
such a sense of hopelessnessthat we won't have the ability
(37:19):
to keep on keeping on doing thework.
That feels really scary,because I know there are folks
who are on the edge ofhopelessness just because of the
rhetoric that's going on.
I want us to counteract thatand talk about it.
Okay, so what are you eating?
(37:41):
And for me it goes back to thatwell, you're in this ocean,
okay, so what are you needing tobe able to keep on keeping on
without destroying other folks?
What are you scared about?
What's the danger?
What's the threat?
What's the risk, such that youdon't hurt other folks who don't
(38:04):
look like you and, in theprocess, yourself and your
generations going forward.
Leena (38:11):
I appreciate, Deborah, how you went to feelings for
this.
Now people who are listening tothis are not going to see, but
in the video, in the backgroundof your video, is a framed,
enlarged feeling wheel which Ialways chuckle at when I see.
I appreciate that you went tofeelings and surfacing and
(38:34):
really acknowledging the role offeelings and everything that's
happening and the importance ofaddressing them in working to
move that to something somewhereelse.
I'm curious if you're willingand this is like a spontaneous
question, so feel free to passwhat the feelings framework like
, how it was very impactful forme, right?
(38:57):
And I'm wondering if youremember want to speak to how it
was when you were firstintroduced to it.
Deborah (39:06):
Oh, I think it was.
I thought it was there's.
This is a Southern expression.
It was the best thing sincesliced bread.
You may not get that.
That's a I don't know.
Leena (39:19):
I've heard that one.
Deborah (39:20):
Okay, so we're going to start at the part of the model,
the three dimensions of change.
That change happensindividually and
organizationally to the degreethat we address the cognitive,
the thinking, provideinformation, we address behavior
actions and generally in thiswork my experience has been that
(39:44):
consultants focus on thecognitive and the behavioral and
don't get into the affective orthe feelings pieces.
Leena (39:51):
So you're talking about other approaches like not
visions approaches, Otherapproaches when you say other
approach.
Deborah (39:56):
Yeah, that right.
Don't don't address the affectof the climate, the emotions of
the, the yeah, the feelings.
And what I often say is that ifyou address the cognitive and
the behavioral, what you willhave is folks doing stuff that's
politically correct for a hotminute and then something in
(40:18):
terms of their feelings may Isay it's scared will erupt
inside them or in the climate ofthe organization and they'll
have to figure out what to dowith it.
When I thought through, thoughtthrough the three dimensions
and thought about how otherconsultants sometimes approach
the work with the cognitive andthe, the behavioral, it allowed
(40:42):
me to focus more closely on well, what does it mean for us to
really take on the affect?
And I got so excited because I'mlike this is where the work is,
this is where change happensand if we can create the safe
space for feelings to be okay tofeel, then I think that we have
(41:04):
opportunities to do evengreater work.
because the truth is and I'vesaid this before if feelings
don't come out straight, nevercome out crooked and they're
going to come out, and so Iwould love for us to even spend
more time, you know, with theaffective part of it, and I
think folks are becoming moreand more aware of the importance
(41:27):
of that as they talk aboutmental health and the trauma
that we've experienced.
I know Dr Glaup talked about itthe other night, about the need
to really in tune with what isgoing on inside of us in terms
of their feelings.
So I can't say enough about thevalue, both therapeutically for
our mental health, for ourwell-being individually as as
(41:49):
communities, as a country, forus to really create space for
folks to say I'm mad about, I'msad about, I'm scared about, and
have some tools more addressingthose.
Leena (42:00):
Yeah.
Deborah (42:02):
And addition.
So much not to do that.
It's a long haul and I'm gladwe're talking about it in terms
of trauma and mental health.
Thank you.
Leena (42:11):
I think you hit the nail on the head.
That's the vision's differencewith what you said about people
doing certain things, acting incertain ways because it's
politically correct, but then itbusting out in some other way
because they're uncomfortableand feel threatened and scared
and don't know how to how todeal with that.
Thank you for that.
Deborah (42:29):
Absolutely.
I mean because you know we getmessages, as you know, and catch
messages about what it's okayto feel and what it's not okay
to feel, and you know that'sdifferent across race, ethnicity
, gender, and I'm feeling that,I think, is a tremendous tool
for for healing, which is a partof what I think is required to
(42:52):
shift the dynamics across ourdifferences.
Leena (42:55):
Wonderful.
So earlier this year you and Iand our wonderful colleagues Ann
Ealy facilitated a workshop andtour of the state where you
grew up.
We did various sites on theAlabama Civil Rights Trail.
We're the originator of thatand I had the privilege of
(43:16):
accompanying you on that.
Would you talk about how youoriginated that and a little bit
about what we did and how youwere thinking about it?
Deborah (43:24):
Well, first, I was really excited that you were
excited about you at Zan and youdoing the trip, and for me it
was an opportunity to take folkshome and to share a bit of
Alabama's history.
And part of that was because Iremember growing up and even as
(43:49):
an adult, people would talkabout Alabama like it was some
third planet and not account forthe fact that the same thing
that's going on in Alabama isgoing on in California, in
Massachusetts and other parts.
But because we had so muchcivil rights strength in Alabama
(44:09):
, in Birmingham, in Montgomeryand in Selma, alabama became the
whipping post, if you will, forall that is wrong and that all
problems around racism reside inAlabama or Mississippi.
So for me it was an opportunityto say that is true.
(44:30):
And what is also true is thatwe are doing the work to address
the legacy and the history ofracism and white supremacy in
Alabama, and I want wanted folksto really understand at a
deeper level, not just theReddit talking points, but to
(44:51):
really see a state and citieswhere folks were doing the work.
So, yeah, so I was taking youall to my home.
Leena (45:02):
So the tour is based in Montgomery and we took a long
day trip to Birmingham and ahalf day trip to Selma.
Do you want to talk about someof the sites that we prioritize
in each place?
Deborah (45:15):
So we started the tour and our base was in Montgomery,
and Montgomery was the seat ofConfederacy.
So that's significant and Ithink Brian Stevens and others
have done tremendous work inbuilding what some call the
lynching museum, which is amuseum that houses soil from
(45:38):
folks who were lynched andreally shows history of lynching
in Alabama.
It's an incredible exhibit ofthe ways in which folks were
treated so badly, and a part ofthe EJI, which is the Equal
Justice Initiative, is the Peaceand Justice Memorial, where
(45:59):
there are slabs from variousstates and counties that have
the names of folks who werelynched which is powerful, and
so I think the EJI both thelynching museum and the memorial
provides an opportunity for usto see up close and personal the
(46:23):
impact of slavery and thetreatment of African Americans.
Leena (46:28):
I have to say that the EJI, the museum in particular
and I say this as somebody whodoes this work from my
particular location, I say thisas a former museum professional
and I say this as a historian itis the most incredible museum I
have ever been to.
I walked into it the first timeyou and I were in Montgomery
(46:50):
when we were pitching to aclient.
I walked into it and I walkedout of it not the same person.
It was so profound and powerfuland I think one of the things
that got me that first timethere were other things that got
me the second time and I was ablubbering mess.
You saw me.
The thing that got me the firsttime was when they showed a map
(47:10):
of where the EJI was, showed themain commercial strip, which
was where the thing was located,where the museum was located,
and showed this was an auctionhouse.
This was a bank that profitedoff the slave trade.
This is an insurance companythat facilitated all of this
happening and it was right thereand we were right there.
(47:35):
It was just mind blowing howembedded we were in that, just
in that history.
So anyway, that's Montgomery.
Deborah (47:48):
That is Montgomery, and there's much more to see in
Montgomery because, of course,rosa Parks statue is in the
center of Montgomery, the churchthat Dr King pastored, which is
right down the street from theCapitol, and in Birmingham.
For the day trip we went to theBirmingham Civil Rights
(48:13):
Institute, which is anothermuseum that highlights
Birmingham story of the CivilRights Movement, and across the
street from it is Kelly IngramPark, which now houses statues
and other memorabilia thathighlighted the place where Will
(48:34):
Connor sicked the dogs and thefire hoses on the kids during
the children's crusade, and oneof the most powerful statues is
a statue of the four littlegirls, which can see from where
the statue is placed.
It directly looks into 16thStreet Baptist Church which is
(48:55):
on corner.
And then, of course, I sharedabout St Paul, which is the
church I grew up in and wasright next door, 16th Street,
and I also will say that theentering 16th Street Baptist
Church physically and seeing theway in which they have
chronicled what happened wasreally powerful.
(49:16):
So one of the things I reallyappreciate about Birmingham is
how they are coordinating all ofthese buildings and statues
within what's called theBirmingham Civil Rights District
, which was President Obama wasdesignated as a historical
district.
(49:36):
And when we go back we also geta chance to go to the A G
Gaston Motel, which is wherebillionaire AG Gaston
businessmen and where Dr Kingand others stayed during the
Civil Rights here because shecouldn't stay anyplace else, and
which was bombed as a way tokill them and they didn't.
(49:57):
And then, of course, visitingDynamite Hill where Dr King's
brother lived and otherprominent Arthur Shores was a
prominent attorney, Angela Davis, her family lived on Dynamite
Hill and then visiting the BlackBusiness District which is
adjacent to the park and thearea.
(50:20):
So four or five blocks.
What you see is Birmingham andhow it grew to and responded to
the to the racism and thedevastation of the sixties.
So that's for him.
And then we went to Selma, whichis powerful and special in its
(50:42):
own right.
Black Panthers and othersactually spent time in Selma and
what it's most famous for isthe march across the Edmund
Pettus Bridge.
The young man was killed and DrKing and John Lewis and others
said we're going to march fromSelma to Montgomery, which is
(51:07):
about 55 miles to the statecapital, and it took tries
before they were able to do that.
And and John Lewis tells thestory about how he was, you know
, beaten and their clips butyeah, and it took.
It took a minute to get toMontgomery and until the federal
(51:29):
government said, ok, we'llprovide protection for you to
get there.
And it was only after thefederal government said we'll
provide protection that theywere able to make the trek to
Montgomery and stand before thecapital, the seat of Confederacy
, and essentially say no more,this has to end.
(51:49):
And so tying all those piecestogether those three cities
really does paint, think, apowerful picture of Alabama and
how the various cities,including the three that we're
visiting, are working to ensurethat the history doesn't get
lost.
(52:10):
And that truth is for all to see, and that's why I'm excited
that we're going again in 2024.
I think the combination of thesites and our using the vision's
tools to teach and process whatfolks are seeing is a way to
(52:34):
invite folks to keep on keepingon undergirded history, and so
the combination of, in this case, and having that history again,
given what's going on currentlyas history is trying to be
erased, is critical.
So I'm excited that we can helpbegin.
Leena (52:54):
And then, while this tour is happening, we also scheduled
time to teach the fundamentalsof the vision's model.
Deborah (53:02):
And the visual what it was, and then using the tools to
process, including processingfeelings, is really an important
piece to supporting individualswho come in their own personal
work around these issues and toalso support them as they
(53:26):
support others, given they dothemselves.
And I'm aware that, for example, one of the folks that we had
this time was in education andhe had planned.
He had planned to bringstudents down, and this is a
great opportunity to bringstudents and or to come with
your faculty or staff orwhatever, and learn this history
(53:48):
so that you can support whatyour students need to learn in
their schools, given the bandbooks idea.
So come on down.
Leena (53:59):
Deborah, thank you so much for coming on here and
sharing your story and sharingyour insights.
I have been deeply appreciativeand grateful to be able to be
in community with you, to beable to be your colleague and to
call you a friend.
So thank you so much for thetime.
Deborah (54:17):
And I want to thank you .
You are one awesome woman,human being, and I deeply
appreciate you and the work thatyou do and the way in which you
care about this work and thepeople that you work with, and I
am grateful to be on thisjourney with you.
So thank you for being you,thank you.
Leena (54:39):
Deborah, if you're curious to learn more about Dr
Walker's work experiences or thetour that she's leading on the
Alabama Civil Rights Trail inMay 2024, I've included links in
the show notes.
If you want to know more aboutus or about what's coming up at
Visions, there are links andresources in the notes as well.
You can find us on Facebook,Instagram and LinkedIn, as well
(55:00):
as at our website, www.
visions-inc.
org.
Thank you so much for listening.
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