September 10, 2024 • 62 mins
Join us for a conversation with Louise Coggins, longtime VISIONS board member and current board chair of VISIONS, who first met the founders of this organization when high schools integrated in Rocky Mount, NC.
So much of VISIONS history and way of being is rooted in its value of relationality. Louise’s longtime connection and passionate support of VISIONS, and so many other organizations working for justice, is a testament to this.
We start by talking about what it was like to grow up in eastern NC in the 1960s, and the process of integrating the schools. I want to offer a content note for mentions of threats of a couple of different forms violence a few minutes in.
We then talk about her work with VISIONS, her career as a therapist, what she feels has and hasn’t changed in the last 50 years and what message she has for people who are working toward an equitable and just world now.
2024 is VISIONS 40th anniversary and we’re having a big celebration at the State Room in Boston on September 27th! Our guest speakers include Gloria Steinem, Verna Meyers, and The Rev. Dr. William Jay Barber II. Learn more here and join if you can!
If you’re interested experiencing our approach, VISIONS offers a 75-minute public workshop teaching our Guidelines for Effective Cross Cultural Dialogue on the last Wednesday of each month at 4pm ET / 1pm PT. It’s pay what you can, free if you want, and all are welcome.
See what's coming up at VISIONS!
About us
Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.
Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.
VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.
Any opinions and views expressed by the speakers are their own and do not reflect the positions of VISIONS, Inc.
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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/visions-inc.org/
Music credit: Tim Hall @tv_hall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (00:00):
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm L A, director of Programswith Visions Inc.
Welcome, hi, everyone.
Today we're in for a treat aconversation with Louise Coggins
, longtime Visions board memberand current board chair, who met
(00:24):
the founders of thisorganization back when their
high schools were integrated inthe late 1960s in Rocky Mount,
north Carolina.
So much of Visions' history andway of being is rooted in its
value of relationality, andLouisa's longtime connection and
passionate support of Visionsand so many other organizations
that are working for justice isa testament to this.
(00:50):
We start by talking about whatit was like to grow up in
eastern North Carolina in the1960s and the process of
integrating the schools, whichLouise was heavily involved in.
I do want to offer a contentnote for mentions of threats, of
a couple of different forms ofviolence, a few minutes in when
we're talking about schoolintegration.
We then talk about her workwith Visions and her long career
as a therapist, and alsosomething that I particularly
appreciated, which is what shefeels has and hasn't changed
(01:12):
over the last 50 years and whatmessage she has for people who
are working toward an equitableand just world.
Now I'm really excited to betalking to you today, louise.
I'm excited to be talking toLouise Coggins, who has been
part of the Visions board almostsince the organization's
inception.
And do I have it correct,louise, are you the chair of the
(01:33):
board currently?
Yes, I am Beautiful.
You have a long background withVisions and also with the
founders of Visions, going backto grade school, and I'm really
excited to hear that story.
So, for people who don't knowwho you are, could you introduce
yourself briefly?
Louise Coggins (01:50):
Sure, I'm Louise Weeks Coggins and I'm from
Rocky Mount, North Carolina,where three of our founders Dr
Val, Angela and Ida were from.
Actually knew Angela fromjunior high because she went to
a white school for her juniorhigh and then we integrated in
(02:13):
high school.
So I met the other founders inhigh school in Rocky Mountain
time psychotherapist, clinicalsocial worker, for 50 years and
have been in private practicefor 45 years.
So I work in mental health allday long, every day, with every
(02:35):
kind of individual, family,marital sex therapy, group
therapy with all ages, and lovedoing social work as an advocate
for social justice as part ofmy volunteer life including, of
course, visions.
And I'm married to Steve whojoins me in all the social
(03:01):
justice causes.
We just celebrated our 50thanniversary.
Dr. Leena Akhta (03:07):
Congratulations , thank you.
In addition to your work withVisions, you mentioned your
volunteer work.
I have the sense that it's alot of fundraising for these
issues that you care about.
Louise Coggins (03:18):
Yes, definitely.
I work on the board of at leastsix other organizations and
chair four of those national,international, state
universities, human trafficking,volunteer fundraising for
candidates and causes that willfight back to claim our country
(03:41):
and our democracy.
So this year I'm spending agreat deal of time on those
(04:02):
issues.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (04:03):
That's busy and seemingly endless work.
Louise Coggins (04:07):
It is.
I'm looking forward to restingon November 6th and celebrating.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (04:13):
You are from Rocky Mount, so I'm curious to
hear a little bit about yourchildhood and background, and I
know it was very different thanyou know the Vision's founders,
and so your childhood, yourbackground, and then when you
first intersected with them.
Louise Coggins (04:28):
Well, I was very privileged.
I was my family still mybrothers live in Rocky Mound,
had great grandparents thatlived there and I was always in
environments where I felt that Icould really do anything.
(04:49):
And I was from a whiteupper-middle-class family and my
father was a senior executivefor the oldest cotton mill in
the South White Mount Mills andboth my parents were college
educated and my mother stayed athome did volunteer work.
(05:10):
She was also a sociology majorat Carolina where I went to
school and I had two youngerbrothers.
I grew up going to the countryclub, being a debutante, you
know, just really not worryingabout things, feeling like the
world was a good place and Iknew about things that were
(05:34):
going on and my parents were.
They were Democrats.
They were definitely moreliberal than many people in
Rocky Mountain, any white people.
They were more with theeducated intellectual group who
really understood some of thebigger issues, and they taught
(05:57):
me always we were Piscopan,always that we were never better
than anyone else, that you knowto whom much was given, much
was expected and that everyonewas God great thing.
(06:21):
Didn't really know what it wouldmean until we were a pilot
project to integrate the schoolsin North Carolina a year ahead
of mandated integration, whowere in my newly integrated high
(06:43):
school and we began to knoweach other and visit with each
other, really learning about thedifferent lives.
And the only time that I wouldreally have gone to the black
section of town was thatsometimes I would ride with my
(07:05):
mom to take our maid home andshe lived in one of the projects
and, you know, was like amember of our family.
But I'd never really known,never known any Black friends,
because the town was actuallydivided by a railroad in two
counties and more of the blackcitizens lived in one county
(07:28):
edgecombe county, and we livedin nash county, but it was all
the town of rocky mount, about40 000 people, so it was a very
segregated town till the late60s I know about the train
tracks because I mean a lot ofus in the course of our visions,
training or various retreatshave been to Rocky Mount.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (07:49):
I did not know that that was the dividing line
for the counties and I'mcurious is that intentional
districting?
Louise Coggins (07:57):
Well, it is from the 1800s or earlier.
So, yes, I think that was justthe line, and there's less
wealth in Edgecombe County, andthat is where more of the Black
neighborhoods were, where Valand Ida grew up.
Angela was just on the whiteside of the tracks, but still a
(08:23):
very distinct Black neighborhood.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:26):
How old were you when the pilot integration
project was happening?
Louise Coggins (08:32):
Well, I was 15.
Our sophomore year.
They knew it was going tohappen, so they chose one Black
and white boy and girl from thehigh school.
Booker T Washington was theblack school and the white high
school Sparkmount Senior HighSchool.
And so I was chosen from myclass and we met a year ahead
(08:56):
and we would meet at Booker Tone week and meet at Senior High
.
And we met even withoutteachers.
They wanted the students todecide things like how many
black cheerleaders, how manywhite cheerleaders, based on
that 60-40.
There were 60% white people inRockville and in the, and then
(09:17):
it would switch.
The next semester we chose thename of the mascot, which was a
joining of the Bucatis lion andRocky Mountains blackbirds,
which were a reference torailroad workers.
(09:39):
And so we became the Griffons,which is a mythical beach which
is half bird and half lion.
And nobody knew what it was.
So everybody asked us andpeople wrote about it, because
that had never been a mascotanyway.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:57):
Sweet.
What a beautifully inventivesolution.
Yeah, now I'm curious.
You thought to join thiscommittee, this effort, and from
what you've said, I imaginethat this would have been your
most long-term proximateencounter across that form of
difference.
Right, were there any formativeexperiences or just things that
(10:22):
you noticed or experienced orsaw or heard about that
sharpened your awareness?
Because I'm really struck bywhat you said about.
I forget what the phrase youused exactly was, but you felt
good and like the world was agood place.
What changed that awareness foryou, if anything?
Louise Coggins (10:41):
Well, I remember , maybe my first experience was
probably as a five or six yearold, and in Rocky Mount the
meals is two industry towntobacco and cotton and the black
citizens mainly could work inthe fields in tobacco and the
(11:02):
white workers these were theworking class people worked in
the mills, and there wereseveral of those, and the mill
was from the early 1800s andthere were mill worker families
that would live in these tinymill village homes like little
(11:23):
shotgun houses for generationsof you know five generations of
mill workers.
But they were never able to ownthe houses.
They worked for a very low wage, better than the black wages.
But in Christmas time we wouldhave a party, the meal would,
(11:44):
and so my father and his bestfriend, whose family had owned
the meal for generations, wewould give out gifts to the meal
children, so they would haveSanta, and then I would go and
give little gifts to some of themeal children and I would ask
my dad why do they not havepresents, or why are we giving
(12:06):
them presents and why don't theyhave Santa Claus?
You know, the same way that wehad Christmas and of course he
would try to explain it, but youknow there was no good reason
except classism and what hadbeen going on for many
generations.
So I just remember thinkingthis is not right and that was
(12:29):
just looking at white povertyand class issues.
And then I would rememberdriving into the Black
neighborhoods with my family andyou know, to pick up or to take
our maid when she couldn't geta bus, and I would notice the
housing and just look at howdifferent it was and I would
(12:53):
question it.
And even from our faith, theEpiscopal Church began to work
with the Black Episcopal Church,which Dr Val that's her family
went to and I went to the bigwhite Episcopal church and we
had some interracial servicesand the church, the Episcopal
(13:13):
church, is very progressive andI started meeting people even
before going to school throughchurch things, even before going
to school through church things.
But going to school was a verypowerful experience because
there were people who did notwant the integration to work,
(13:37):
both white and black, and lotsof my friends went to private
academies that were just raceacademies, that were started to
just be sure that childrendidn't have to go to school with
black people.
Then a lot of them went toboarding schools and my parents,
you know, were somewhat afraidjust because there was so much
(13:57):
talk about it's going to bedangerous.
And I told them, if they triedto make me go to St Mary's and
Episcopal Girls or anywhere, Iwould just walk home.
I mean, no matter what, I wasgoing to this school and they
believed me.
I was pretty strong-willed, sothat was fine and they supported
it.
But then after about the firstsix weeks, there were race riots
(14:21):
at the school and the countrywas looking at this and it was
Howard Fuller, who's still alive.
He was a black separatist whobelieved that integration would
cause the loss of blackleadership in their own legacies
and identity and they would beswept up into whiteness.
(14:45):
And of course it's true, theblack principal became the
assistant principal.
The black teachers were not thehighest level of the teachers,
it was all.
They came into our school anddid it our way.
I understand now exactly whatthey were doing, but they
brought in busloads of youngblack militants who looked like
(15:08):
students and they came in with,you know, knives and chains and
whatever, and some people wereinjured.
Nobody died and I was.
They had a rape list and a killlist which was published and I
was, you know.
Eventually I was headcheerleader.
I was on the student committeethat had a plan did.
(15:30):
I was became number one on therape list and so then the most
well-known white boys were onthe kill list and it did terrify
people.
And so they brought in a 65 manpolice force from all over
eastern North Carolina.
We were given on the girls onthe list and the cheerleaders
(15:52):
and whoever.
We got a ammonia spray gun andwe got like a little plastic
spray gun.
We had tear gas guns becausethey were not illegal yet and we
had a police escort that came.
They were in our school, whichwas a big, sprawling school with
a lot of trailers, because wehad to integrate 600 students
(16:16):
from the black school with the1,200 who were already there,
and so you would have to go toparts of the campus and not
right inside the school.
So I had a policeman pick me upat every class.
Then we were given they broughtin a black belt.
Nobody had ever heard of thatin the 60s.
We had to take judo, jiu-jitsu,karate, the girls on the rape
(16:40):
list.
We learned 10 ways to maim andkill.
I mean this was not my life andI'm thinking this is just kill.
I mean this was not my life andI'm thinking this is just wild.
I mean it was life changing,but it never occurred to me.
This wasn't where I wanted tobe and I went to those things
because I had to and you know, Ifelt perfectly safe.
I never felt threatened by Blackstudents in any way and we had
(17:05):
police protection at games.
The cheerleaders had an escortthat go to the bathroom.
There was a white student thatwas shot when he made a football
touchdown and it was at theblack high school in Durham.
They never found who did it,and so we had to start playing
games in the afternoons, not atnight.
(17:27):
We were, I was like thehomecoming queen, but we
couldn't have open cars and ridearound in convertibles.
We had to ride around in littlered wagons inside the school gym
for our homecoming.
Everything changed.
So it was a time where a lot ofpeople then took their kids out
(17:50):
of senior high and five of mybest friends stayed and we
worked with the black studentsand we worked MLK celebrations
that Val and her friends led waybefore MLK Day.
But anyway, it was justlife-changing.
I knew from that point on I wasnot going to have the same life
(18:14):
that would have happened if Iwent to all segregated schools,
you know, like people who werejust a year older than me had
done.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (18:27):
Now, you said something when we spoke before
about the KKK showing up.
Was that in connection withyour efforts to integrate
schools?
Louise Coggins (18:36):
Well, indirectly .
So.
It was again 1969, 1970, thefirst year and I was cheerleader
, val's brother was thequarterback of the football team
.
We were in a class together, weworked on the yearbook together
(18:56):
, we were both Episcopalians,had gone to Episcopal camp
together, you know, and we justfell in love and that became
something that terrified a lotof people in Rocky Mountain.
We had to keep it a secret.
My parents knew and they werejust really afraid for my safety
and someone had slid.
(19:17):
Her brother's name was Roscoe,we called him, he was her young
brother, so they had slid histires when he had come near my
neighborhood, and so webasically just always had to
meet in his side of town withhis parents and friends and
whatever.
(19:37):
My dad did not tell me, butyears later he told me that
someone tipped him off, that theKu Klux Klan was going to come
to our house, which was on asmall cul-de-sac on the lake in
Rockmount, and so none of mydad's friends were in the KKK,
but someone found out.
(19:58):
So in the middle of the nighthe sat out there.
He didn't have guns, but he hada hunting gun, a rifle, because
everybody in eastern northcarolina hunted, and so he just
sat out on our front porch withhis gun across his legs and then
the trucks sort of driving inthe middle of the night and he
knew that's who it was.
(20:19):
So he waved to them with hisgun and of course they just went
around the circle and left anddid not burn across.
Nothing happened.
He did not tell people, did notget into the newspapers and he
only told me that after I wasgrown.
But it was just a.
(20:40):
It was just a time where wewere living out what we had been
taught.
You know, yeah, everyone, andthat we were working.
That went to carolina, workingfor women's rights, marching for
the era, marching for civilrights.
Everything was a protest and Ihad been this cheerleader
(21:06):
debutante would have been in asorority.
My mom was in a big sorority atCarolina and I said, no, you
know, gonna be a social activist, I'm gonna be a rebel, I'm
gonna be, you know, a hippie.
At that point I wasn't reallyinto drugs, but I was with that
counterculture and Val was atCarolina and she and Angela were
(21:31):
a big part of the Black studentmovement and my best friend and
I helped start the Associationof Women Students and we brought
Gloria Steinem and Jane Fondantand all kinds of famous women
to the campus and protested justall the time.
So we were doing movementstogether and that was just
(21:52):
really what college was about.
I mean, I was majoring inpsychology, taking sociology and
just living it out.
It was more about what you didnot in class that the education
was about.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (22:09):
I want to backtrack a little bit and ask
you about getting to know themin junior high and high school
what that was like.
Louise Coggins (22:16):
Well, angela was two grades ahead of me, so I
was in seventh grade, she was inninth grade, which was still
junior high.
Back then I was in seventhgrade, she was in ninth grade,
which was still junior high.
Back then she came, the mayorof Rocky Mountain, who were
(22:48):
neighbors, and he was a liberal,for the but equal had changed
to freedom of choice in theSouth, which meant that a Black
student could go to a whiteschool.
So she was the only personBlack person in a tremendous
junior high over in ourneighborhood and I didn't really
have classes with her because Iwas younger, but I would see
her in the ninth grade hall.
And one of the most populargirls who was a cheerleader with
(23:11):
me, susan Gravely, who is nowon our Visions Advisory Board
for many years and founder of afamous Italian pottery company,
vietri.
She was very popular and shejust said Angela, you're with me
, took her, let her sip with her.
So she sat in the lunchroom orin assemblies with Susan.
(23:37):
Susan's father was president ofChina American Tobacco Company,
so she had been all over theworld and seen the world as a
multicultural place and soAngela basically gave up her
childhood to go to white schoolsand they did not integrate
until the year after Angelagraduated.
(24:00):
So she never, never got to go tothe integrated school.
So then Val and Ida andPatricia Penn, who's been on our
board since the beginning Ijoined the first year after they
had formed it.
They asked me to join it,patricia and I joined.
They had formed it.
They asked me to join it,patricia and I joined, and they
(24:27):
were seniors and I was a juniorduring that first year.
So then I got to go to schoolwith them for a year and then,
of course, went to Carolina andthey were already at Carolina
and just you know would see themon campus and talk with them
and just you know it was totallylife changing because they were
some of my favorite people.
And I remember I was stilldating Val's brother and he
(24:53):
became the first whitequarterback at a white
university.
He went to Appalachian State.
He was nominated for theMoorhead but went because they
told him he could be thestarting quarterback and so I
would travel to see him there.
He would come to Carolina andwe eventually broke up and I met
(25:15):
my husband, who has joined mein this movement, and marched
with me for everything atCarolina.
But it was a very powerful timeand so we continued to say this
is wrong.
We have to change the world.
(25:38):
And you know the innocence andthe enthusiasm and the passion
of youth who believe we can doanything.
Who's going to stop us?
We said, ok, we're going tofight racism and sexism and
every other form of oppression.
And so Val gets her PhD, angelagets her law degree, ida gets
(26:00):
her education degree, becomes aprincipal.
Val meets John, the fourthfounder at Duke, at the PhD
psychology school, and they thenhave the grounds to start
something as a therapist andthey Val writes the theory of
(26:25):
modern racism, which is such anamazing, groundbreaking truth to
power.
And we, you know, kept alwayssaying how are we going to
change the world?
So they formed visions and theyasked me to join the board.
And there are a few whitemembers and a few white staff,
but largely a woman-owned,black-owned organization,
(26:47):
non-profit.
So I've been on the board now,for this will be my 40th year
coming up and it was a lot offamily and friends board.
Val's father was the chair andthen when he died, her mother
became the board chair and thenher mother was not able to do
(27:11):
that in her older years, so theyasked me to be the chair, which
I have done for decades andhave loved it, and we have
looked for new chairs, and wealways are.
But we have new board membersand I've just said I would stay
on as long as my long historyand legacy could be helpful to
(27:33):
the newer board members and thechanging of the board to be more
of a real governance board.
So that's where we are in thepast 10 years or so and it's
been great to see the growth ofthe board Really just a
wonderful thing.
And so many people say they geton this board, they do not want
(27:57):
to leave, and we've had peoplePatricia's going to rotate off
off and I will as soon as theychoose the next year.
But you know, for 40 years thisis, this is life for, and of
course, what we thought is wewould be finished, but the world
(28:27):
itself would have become aprogressive place where you know
training about the evils ofoppression would not be an
everyday need.
And the disappointment is, ofcourse, that it's more than ever
and it's a lifetime work and wetrain people around the world.
Lena, I went to South Africa forweeks with Val.
I was the only white person onthat trip and seeing the way
(28:47):
white South Africans treated mewas amazing.
You would have thought I was,you know, safe traveling around
with them and what kind of stuffwent on.
We went to Brazil and worked inthe favelas.
We went to Cuba and we wereworking in so many places and
board members and consultantscould go and see oppression very
(29:13):
much active.
But now the United States isworse than so many places that
we did groundbreaking work in.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:23):
So here's a question that I have for you the
work we do, it is still needed.
I'm not going to say moreneeded than ever, but because
it's hard to draw that kind ofcomparison and for a model that
was pioneered 40 years ago, Icontinually am amazed at how
robust it is and how applicableit is.
(29:44):
I did most of my growing upoutside of the United States and
there are not many DEIapproaches that I resonated with
, and this one I resonated withbecause it does work across
variables of oppression.
It is adaptable, as you've said, to different contexts.
So, in terms of how yourexperience of the isms, which
(30:05):
are still there, right, there'sstill racism, there's still
sexism, there's still homophobiaWould you characterize it as
manifesting differently now thanit did before?
Louise Coggins (30:16):
differently now than it did before.
Well, yes, I mean you know frombeing a consultant, the four
levels of the isms.
We've dealt with the legal,although we're going backwards
on laws, as you know.
But we have the institutionalprotections, at least in this
(30:37):
country those are threatenedevery day by a former president.
But the interpersonal and, ofcourse, the internalized
oppression is still there.
At the cultural level, yes,there's more black-white
marriages.
There's no law against it.
(30:57):
There's more black whitefriendships.
There's people at work, but thebasic society is still very
segregated.
Even if they're black people ina neighborhood, it's not always
that that is a friendship astypical as the white-white
(31:19):
friendship.
So the black-black friendship.
So I think it is just more nail.
With all of the hate that hasbeen spewed and with racism
becoming very much accepted andsexism and homophobism and
religious discrimination andeverything.
(31:43):
Every ism is now just out thereand it's considered to be quite
fun to say outrageous, untrue,illegal, horrible statements
about anybody.
Because of certain politicalpeople who have a tremendous
(32:04):
following and because of media.
There does not need to be anyfact check to anything that is
said about a transgender personor about a black person, or you
know a gay person, or you know,women, what they've done.
They are scorned.
They're just crazy things said.
So it is less outrageous nowthan it was.
(32:29):
There is a whole movementagainst quote political
correctness, which was aprotection against saying
horrible, racist statements.
Why is that called politicallycorrect?
That is humane, that isinterpersonal caring, and that
all people are worthy of respect, of God's love, of the love of
(32:55):
other people, of other people,and that is just no longer
believed by a large segment ofpeople who have been taught to
compete with Black workers, withLatino workers, with whatever
it is.
It is a setup so that there ishate, that is fueling the
(33:17):
political division and the fightfor resources, and it's just
insane.
And lies are told all day longon TV, on news stations, and
some people do not realize thatwhat they're reading or seeing
is not the least bit true.
So that is where I see it beingworse.
(33:39):
So that is where I see it beingworse and that there's really
not truth known for largesegments of the population.
I mean my friends, and I saycan you believe that somebody
believes that?
And then I'll listen and I hear.
I.
I hear people, not people thatI really spend time with, but
(34:02):
people who vote.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (34:04):
Yeah, it's there.
Yeah, I appreciate thatperspective.
I appreciate hearing yourperspective as somebody who's
lived through it and really seenthe arc of it over the last
several decades.
So yeah, so you joined theboard a year after the
organization formed.
When did you attend your firstPACE?
Louise Coggins (34:26):
I believe that was so.
That was 84.
I think it was like maybe 91 or92.
And it was the first time itcame near.
You know, I work full-time, seepatients all day long, so I had
enough notice.
And it was the four days thatwere going to be in Rocky Mound.
I was in Raleigh so I was ableto travel back and forth, stay
(34:48):
with my mom and actually Angelawas one of the trainers and
there was always a white person,a black person, a male, a
female, you know, among thethree.
It was a great mix.
And so I knew the theory, I'dread the papers, but the
experience in it was wonderfuland met people just said common
(35:13):
everyday work sites in RockyMountain and the surrounding
counties, a large manufacturingcorporation which was trying to
do some multicultural work, asthey called it then, and we had
the inner group, you know.
So we would meet with just thewhite people and then you would
(35:34):
meet with the integrated groupand we had all the different
exercises, which was fascinatingto watch how it unfolded,
especially me being a therapistwho did word therapy all the
time, and watching thosedynamics and how different the
conversations were in all theexercises that they asked us to
(35:57):
do.
It was very powerfulexperiential work and very deep
work.
And throughout my time it hasbeen easy to promote the work of
visions because anybody that Iwould talk to friends that ran
nonprofits, friends that were inthe government or medical
(36:21):
educational churches I would saythis is really the real thing.
And they would say, especiallyas diversity work became more
common in the 90s, early 2000s,they would say we've been to
this training for four hours atthis and my church got this and
(36:43):
it was just meaningless.
It was checking the box.
And one of my good friends is anEpiscopal priest.
He had a 4,000-member church inAtlanta.
After Val came.
It was one of the trainers forthe leaders of his church.
He had like 13 priests and theywere all different races and
(37:05):
sexes.
He said this changed my church.
It was, you know, such anamazing transformation downtown
Atlanta and he said this is thework.
I want to do something to tellpeople about it.
So he became a board member.
You know, donor obviouslywrites comments like this is the
(37:26):
one that if you're going tohave training, take this one.
And then, of course, as youknow, we did massive
interventions throughout theNational Episcopal Church and
other churches and everywhere,people would say this is the
real thing.
This one changed me from theinside out.
This is what I remember.
(37:46):
I remember the experiences ofthe training.
I don't have to go back andread the articles that we were
given.
I remember what.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (37:57):
I felt.
Louise Coggins (37:58):
I remember what the other people were feeling
and it was transformative andthat is why people will choose
us.
It's more in-depth work, it'sharder to do it, it's at more of
a personal cost of confrontingfeelings and it is confronting
(38:20):
our own racism, confrontinginternalized oppression,
whatever.
I don't see other trainingsthat do that at the same level.
So as a lifetime therapist, youcan tell that psychologically
minded people, valent, john andwhoever else, are part of it.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (38:38):
Yeah.
Louise Coggins (38:39):
They came up with the theories and they found
the work that would be trulychanging.
That would change anyorganization, including, you
know, tens of thousands ofprocter and gamble workers,
(38:59):
whoever started working with us.
It was like I want everyone inour company to know.
I want the whole internationalforce of leaders, salespeople,
whatever I want them to havethis training.
It was very compelling.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:16):
Yeah, yeah, I hear that, and I think one of
the both smartest and keyfeatures of this model is how it
does scaffold people for thedifficult emotional work.
It doesn't just leave peoplehanging out to dry with them.
Louise Coggins (39:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:35):
Great.
I see your long resume here andI have some curiosity about
your work as a therapist, so Iwant to ask you about that in a
minute.
And before I ask you about that, you are clearly very involved
in fundraising and working onthese really important issues
from that really key angle.
(39:56):
How did you get into that andhow do you think about it?
It's a world that I'm very farremoved from, so I am curious.
Louise Coggins (40:04):
Well, I think I just had a natural ability to
sell what I believe in In theMyers-Briggs.
I'm an ENFJ, so when I believein something, I can commit
somebody.
I don't mean to do that, it'sjust the way I always was, from
a child, and I would get on theintercom in high school and say
(40:27):
we're going to have 10 busesgoing to Raleigh, we're going to
have more people at thisfootball game than the hometown
does, and people would buytickets and we'd take six buses.
But hometown does, and peoplewould buy tickets and we'd take
six buses.
I mean, I had a sense that whensomething is good and you want
to promote that, you got to sellit.
(40:48):
You got to get people to puttheir money where their mouth is
.
So early on I startedfundraising for any nonprofit
that I was involved with,because most people don't like
fundraising or they don't liketo ask for money.
I have so many fundraisers andpeople like I have one party a
year, that's just for friendsand I don't ask them for money,
(41:10):
and everybody comes and they'relike okay, what are we raising
money for?
Now, for the older people, I'vegot my checkbook.
Well, no, I'll just give youwhat would you like?
I'm like no, this is my thankyou for you going to 25 events
this year and paying for themall.
And it's so funny because theydon't mind, because they know
(41:31):
I'm only selling what's good,good in my mind, something that
is going to help them to knowmore about, something that is
going to help them to know moreabout, whereas I started working
on human trafficking issuesvery early, from years of
working with abused women andchildren, incest, rape, the
whole women's movement.
Who's going to be against that?
(41:52):
I mean, who's going to say,yeah, human trafficking and used
to.
Nobody would say, you know,we're pro-racism.
Now they do.
But I mean it was causes thatyou could just be sure people
wanted to join, it was not hard.
So I just felt, anytime Ijoined a board or you know,
(42:14):
people said what can you do?
I'll help you raise money.
I have wealthy people that livearound me, wealthy friends, and
they have so much money andthey want to know where to give
it.
And so people call me up whatshould I give money to?
What candidates, what causes?
(42:36):
And that is so wonderfulbecause it makes it very easy,
and so it was just part of mynatural personality.
And then, knowing that theseorganizations couldn't do it
without money.
Visions didn't have money.
We founded the Right Center wasone of our spinoffs.
(42:57):
It was a vigorous interventionin a natural setting, the first
we wanted to show our work onageism.
So we did this incredibly greatadult day health care center
and John Kapterman is agerontologist helps us.
We get a film done I think itwas by Harvard about being one
(43:20):
of the first centers in thecountry to do what we were doing
.
And so we didn't have money.
Nobody in Rocky Mountain hadmoney much.
So we would bring in thesespeakers and have these big
banquets and the speakers wouldcome for free Sports people,
political people, governors, Iwould just every year we would
ask somebody movie star and theywould say, okay, that's amazing
(43:44):
what you're doing, bringingblack and white elders together
in 1984, when nobody was doingthat, and having an excellent
service and people getting toknow each other, particularly
that generation.
So know, we have this giantbanquet, 500 people a year, and
it is just.
(44:05):
It's just easy to do becauseit's needed.
The work cannot be done withoutfunding grant writing.
Val was great at gettingKellogg when the grants were big
for anti-racism work.
Now people are afraid of it andafraid they'll be fired for
even talking about it.
(44:26):
And it was a lot of money thatwe were able to say look what we
are doing.
And we would just find peopleand tell them about it.
And you know, it's the sixdegrees of separation, or
however many it's always wewould know somebody who had
power and we would reach out andget money.
(44:46):
So it's just kind of fun.
It's never, never been painful.
My friends are like okay, ifyou just won't call me so many
times, I'll just send it, justsend me.
And now, since we have emailand text, I don't have to call
people, but I'll call them.
(45:07):
Just tell me where to send themoney.
I'm fine if you believe in it,it's fine and I'll send you
money.
I have the.
Don't come to an event anddon't have to talk to me on the
phone.
Fundraising plan, which peoplelove.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (45:23):
Yeah, yeah, I imagine that you're kind of
taking the mental load for them.
Louise Coggins (45:28):
Yeah, here's.
Here's a good place to spendmoney.
You don't even have to come andhear about it.
But here's some info if youwant.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (45:37):
Fabulous.
I love that.
You think it's fun.
I love that.
Yeah, beautiful.
Now you said you've been atherapist for 50 years and in
private practice for 45 yeah itsounds from what you said that
you've done various forms ofpractice, like all over the map.
I'm curious what led you tobecome a counselor and a
(45:59):
therapist and how yourperspective has changed over
time, particularly with respectto learning about
anti-oppression frameworks.
Louise Coggins (46:07):
Well, there weren't psychiatrists or mental
health people growing up inRocky Mound, but I used to like
the guidance counselors.
Or I just love to talk topeople about problems, or I just
love to talk to people aboutproblems and my friends would
call up and I would sit on thephone and there was you had
these long cords.
People would ask me advice andI would give advice.
(46:28):
Boys, girls.
My parents said you have tofind a way to be paid to tell
people what to do and to heartheir problems, and I didn't
know what that was.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (46:38):
Yeah, because look at these phone bills.
Louise Coggins (46:41):
So then I go to Carolina.
Well, I go to governor's school, which is a very progressive
thing in North Carolina, and soI'm able to take psychology and
sociology.
They didn't teach it in highschools and I was like, oh, this
is my thing.
So I go to Carolina major inpsychology.
I go to Carolina major inpsychology.
(47:04):
Then I think, okay, but socialwork is really the combination
of the internal process ofpsychology and changing the
world through that.
So got my master's in socialwork.
I chaired a board for the Schoolof Social Work for Carolina,
which is number four in theworld School of Social Social
Work.
I chair the board for UNCW, forthe College of Health and Human
(47:24):
Services, and I just stayed inthat form of academics.
I'll teach classes.
I wanted to always practicefull time, but I teach, I train,
I supervise other therapists.
I teach, I train, I superviseother therapists and basically
there's not anything I haven'tseen, from addictions to every
(47:46):
form of psychiatric diagnosis,every age, two-year-olds to
98-year-olds.
So it's never been boring forone minute and it's so involved
with what I believe that peoplecan change and I look at the
oppression in people'sindividual families, as well as
(48:07):
their societal oppression, tohelp them find that empowerment
and it's just so.
I mean, my dad would say youcan do anything.
As I was a little girl and hejust believed my mom was, she
was so smart.
He would say you can doanything.
(48:28):
And girls didn't really hearthat.
And he would tell me oh, gowork for NASA, work for the
United Nations.
And I was like what are those?
You know, I was like eightyears old or something, but he
believed in girls and hebelieved in me and so I had that
empowerment, even thoughsociety said I could not play
(48:49):
sports, I could only letter andcheerleading.
I could not get the MoorheadScholarship, which is the most
distinguished scholarship in allof North Carolina.
I was valedictorian of 600people, but the boys got the
scholarships.
I would have probably beennominated for it, but I never
felt it internally.
I always felt I can do anything.
(49:19):
You're not going to give it tome, but I can do it.
And so I wanted to teach that toother women who had come from
families who didn't believe theycould do anything, and to teach
it to young children whoseparents have problems, but I
could teach them a different way, and to just work on whatever
(49:40):
mental illnesses people wereblamed for and stigmatized, for
there were cures and this wasnot people's fault.
And I wanted to change thatwhole view of mental health.
And so that's been the amazingthing in the 50 years what we
believed in the 70s about mentalillness and what we know now.
(50:02):
And it's just so wonderful tobe able to say this is how your
brain was made.
It was genetic.
Here's how environment affectedit, but here's what you can do
about it.
And we have this treatment, thattreatment, this medication
Affected it, but here's what youcan do about it.
And we have this treatment,that treatment, this medication.
It's so.
That's why I'm not an oncologysocial worker, because almost
every person that comes to mecan find a better life.
(50:23):
So it's such an enjoyablecareer.
I'm 70.
I'll be doing it at least 10years more because I'm healthy.
I can't not help people.
I would be doing it just as ahobby if I wasn't still working.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:44):
So it's been a really amazing career an
opportunity to just know so manypeople at such a deep level.
So is there a framework thatdidn't exist when you started,
that exists now, thatsignificantly changed or
revolutionized the way that youwork or see people?
Louise Coggins (51:06):
Well, yes, I mean in the seventies we thought
the mothers caused everythingfor the parents.
They were the schizophrenicmothers.
And pretty soon, by the 80s, weknew that was biological.
The mothers didn't cause it abit, or autism or any of that.
And we saw that it's been thebrain, the neuroscience and
(51:28):
which I love and I study, andgenetics and the parts of the
brain that we can see are onfire and we know this medication
changes that.
The person all of a sudden isjust able to be so different.
But I always just rebelledagainst it.
I always believed that in arelational approach, the
(51:49):
relational psychotherapy whichwas so popularized by the
women's movement and by a lot offeminist therapists that the
whole I was never much of apsychoanalytic person where I'm
going to not interrelate and I'mgoing to be just.
My patients know me.
I use personal examples.
(52:09):
You can't not be known now onthe internet.
They know everything about mebefore they come into my office.
But I talk to them in a waythat is just relational.
I care about them.
You know.
I hug them if that's somethinggood.
I talk to them about theirfaith if that's something they
(52:30):
want.
I don't use this very formalanalytical way that we were
taught.
It's just quite different,quite different.
I mean, we're in the trenches.
People are dying.
The mental health crisis sinceCOVID.
Young people risk suicide.
(52:50):
People of color risk, gay transpeople.
The risk is so high.
We cannot mess around.
We have to just talk to peoplein a way that we are sure that
we are hearing them.
We cannot sit back and justlisten.
We have to intervene becausepeople can walk out and kill
(53:13):
themselves, and so it's a muchmore interactive, dynamic kind
of therapy.
People always said to me I likethat, you give me ideas and you
will tell me don't do that,that's going to hurt, you Do
this.
And that was very unpopular.
It was like all self-directed,you just listen, uh-huh, that
(53:36):
sounds good.
Well, crazy.
No, that sounds like you'regoing to die if you do that
again, you know, and so I wasalways that kind of therapist.
So people always came to me andsaid will you please tell me
how to stop this?
You know, and whatever.
So, but it is more acceptablenow that we have to be so active
(53:57):
.
We have to really just becareful.
We have to pursue patients.
We cannot.
Just we know they're in gravedanger.
We can't just wait to see ifthey want to come back.
We, you know, I talked tofamily members.
I mean, I follow ethics, but Iam not going to let someone go
down, and so it's just a verymuch interactive type of work,
(54:25):
what you're saying.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (54:25):
I've experienced the difference in
that and there's a degree ofreally genuine care in your
approach that I've been on thereceiving end of and it was
actually really profound andtransformative for me, right.
Louise Coggins (54:41):
I'm so glad we just.
You know, I always thought Iwas a therapist before I got my
master's.
I was one of the last people inthe state I worked in mental
health and didn't have mymaster's and they sent me.
But I always felt like I hadmore natural instincts.
Almost before I got thetraining I just wanted to follow
(55:01):
what I thought, what my mind,having been raised in a normal,
healthy family, what it told me.
This is something not right,Even before I knew all the
diagnoses.
Something is really happeninghere that's bad.
So I think training is great.
I'm so glad I got my degree andtake ongoing clinical, you know
(55:24):
education all the time and Ithink we have to think about
what makes sense you know that'scrazy sound and and just really
listen for what is happening inthat person's life and what
does that person need, which isvery individualized.
So that is always what I'vedone, but it's much more now an
(55:50):
acceptable approach, perceptibleapproach.
So I'm just so glad that I gotto see it change, to see all the
things that weren't right, thatwe now have research and brain
knowledge of what's really goingon, right I'm curious now.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (56:12):
You know at the at this point in your life
and in your work, there's twoquestions that I like to ask
toward the end of theconversation.
One is what would you hope toteach and pass on to people who
are in this work right, inwhatever capacity?
The other question is are therethings that you still want to
(56:36):
learn?
Slash what would you like tosee in the world?
Louise Coggins (56:40):
Yeah, well, I would like to teach the young
people and the people who willfollow, all of us, the founders
of visions and all of us who areaging, that never give up, that
it can look like it's a reallybad time and then amazing things
happen Like George Floyd, thatdeath was so horrible and yet we
(57:04):
could see the world changing.
And to always remember thatevery effort counts, even if you
don't see the transformationimmediately.
That when you look back on 40years, yes, you can see it Inch
by inch.
In the trenches it's reallyhard.
And when you're working withthe pain of people in really
(57:29):
oppressed areas, like Visionshas done, worked with bad stuff,
or when you work with reallystubborn high-level corporate or
whoever is running anorganization and they're really
not wanting to make the change,it's just believing, keeping on
with the process, keeping onusing the tools.
(57:50):
For instance, with Visions, Iuse them every day in my
practice.
I give the guidelines forcommunication every couple or I
use them every day in mypractice.
I give the guidelines forcommunication Every couple or
family that I'm seeing.
They have to read those,clarify.
Do they understand it, whatever?
And so I think I want people tostay encouraged, to encourage
(58:12):
each other to seek outcommunities where, even when
you're seeing hate spewed andviolence, where you see love,
where you see true community,where you see the people of the
world in diversity, and to livein that environment with people
(58:34):
who don't just think like youbut care like you do.
Even if they have differentthoughts, they still care that
problems of the world be solved.
They may have a differentapproach, or where can they work
together with other people ofany age who are wanting to
(58:56):
change something and to try toget away from divisiveness.
I'm hoping after November 5thwe will have a country that can
be about love and care forfellow humanity and not about
winning and about competing, andsome of the things that we have
(59:20):
seen take over the mindsets ofso many good people.
So I want to encourage them tostay, stay the course and not to
give up and not to stop doingtheir volunteer work.
Not to say I'm not going to vote, not all of that just when they
see the horror since weintegrated the schools, because
(59:52):
I feel like I've been leading avision slide experientially for
55 of my 70 years and I want tosee the world that we've all
been working for.
I want to see it more ineveryday life and people that I
know who live and are with otherpeople that are different,
(01:00:18):
people of color, any kind ofpeople, and they are just living
their lives together and it's anatural and normal type of
process and situation where wedon't have to teach about it
because people are living andthe world looks like the Visions
community and it looks like welove and accept the wonderful
(01:00:44):
uniqueness of every person.
I mean we appreciatedifferences.
I love that Visions was thefirst group I know of to say
that we want to was the firstgroup I know of to say that we
want to not tolerate, not justunderstand.
We want to appreciate andleverage the differences to
(01:01:05):
change the world.
That's the world.
That's what I want to see.
That's what I want to keeplearning how to do, how to do it
in my everyday life, how toteach other people to do it, how
to encourage people that theycan have a different
conversation, just even in theirown family or in a book club or
in a friendship group of anykind, if there are churches
wherever.
(01:01:26):
That the change will keep on,that we won't burn out, we won't
give up and we won't becomecomplacent or think it's already
happened, because we could seethat that is not true.
We have to keep at it.
We have to normalize it.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (01:01:45):
Beautiful Louise.
Thank you so much.
This was really a pleasure.
Nice to get to know you in thisway.
Oh, thank you, Lena a pleasure,nice to get to know you in this
way.
Oh, thank you, marina.
On September 27th 2024, we aregoing to be celebrating Vision's
40th anniversary at the StateRoom in Boston.
Our honored speakers includeGloria Steinem, vernee Myers and
(01:02:06):
the Reverend Dr William JBarber II.
There is still time to buytickets, so I put a link to that
and more details in the shownotes.
Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm L A, director of Programswith Visions Inc.
Welcome, hi, everyone.
Today we're in for a treat aconversation with Louise Coggins
, longtime Visions board memberand current board chair, who met
(00:24):
the founders of thisorganization back when their
high schools were integrated inthe late 1960s in Rocky Mount,
north Carolina.
So much of Visions' history andway of being is rooted in its
value of relationality, andLouisa's longtime connection and
passionate support of Visionsand so many other organizations
that are working for justice isa testament to this.
(00:50):
We start by talking about whatit was like to grow up in
eastern North Carolina in the1960s and the process of
integrating the schools, whichLouise was heavily involved in.
I do want to offer a contentnote for mentions of threats, of
a couple of different forms ofviolence, a few minutes in when
we're talking about schoolintegration.
We then talk about her workwith Visions and her long career
as a therapist, and alsosomething that I particularly
appreciated, which is what shefeels has and hasn't changed
(01:12):
over the last 50 years and whatmessage she has for people who
are working toward an equitableand just world.
Now I'm really excited to betalking to you today, louise.
I'm excited to be talking toLouise Coggins, who has been
part of the Visions board almostsince the organization's
inception.
And do I have it correct,louise, are you the chair of the
(01:33):
board currently?
Yes, I am Beautiful.
You have a long background withVisions and also with the
founders of Visions, going backto grade school, and I'm really
excited to hear that story.
So, for people who don't knowwho you are, could you introduce
yourself briefly?
Louise Coggins (01:50):
Sure, I'm Louise Weeks Coggins and I'm from
Rocky Mount, North Carolina,where three of our founders Dr
Val, Angela and Ida were from.
Actually knew Angela fromjunior high because she went to
a white school for her juniorhigh and then we integrated in
(02:13):
high school.
So I met the other founders inhigh school in Rocky Mountain
time psychotherapist, clinicalsocial worker, for 50 years and
have been in private practicefor 45 years.
So I work in mental health allday long, every day, with every
(02:35):
kind of individual, family,marital sex therapy, group
therapy with all ages, and lovedoing social work as an advocate
for social justice as part ofmy volunteer life including, of
course, visions.
And I'm married to Steve whojoins me in all the social
(03:01):
justice causes.
We just celebrated our 50thanniversary.
Dr. Leena Akhta (03:07):
Congratulations , thank you.
In addition to your work withVisions, you mentioned your
volunteer work.
I have the sense that it's alot of fundraising for these
issues that you care about.
Louise Coggins (03:18):
Yes, definitely.
I work on the board of at leastsix other organizations and
chair four of those national,international, state
universities, human trafficking,volunteer fundraising for
candidates and causes that willfight back to claim our country
(03:41):
and our democracy.
So this year I'm spending agreat deal of time on those
(04:02):
issues.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (04:03):
That's busy and seemingly endless work.
Louise Coggins (04:07):
It is.
I'm looking forward to restingon November 6th and celebrating.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (04:13):
You are from Rocky Mount, so I'm curious to
hear a little bit about yourchildhood and background, and I
know it was very different thanyou know the Vision's founders,
and so your childhood, yourbackground, and then when you
first intersected with them.
Louise Coggins (04:28):
Well, I was very privileged.
I was my family still mybrothers live in Rocky Mound,
had great grandparents thatlived there and I was always in
environments where I felt that Icould really do anything.
(04:49):
And I was from a whiteupper-middle-class family and my
father was a senior executivefor the oldest cotton mill in
the South White Mount Mills andboth my parents were college
educated and my mother stayed athome did volunteer work.
(05:10):
She was also a sociology majorat Carolina where I went to
school and I had two youngerbrothers.
I grew up going to the countryclub, being a debutante, you
know, just really not worryingabout things, feeling like the
world was a good place and Iknew about things that were
(05:34):
going on and my parents were.
They were Democrats.
They were definitely moreliberal than many people in
Rocky Mountain, any white people.
They were more with theeducated intellectual group who
really understood some of thebigger issues, and they taught
(05:57):
me always we were Piscopan,always that we were never better
than anyone else, that you knowto whom much was given, much
was expected and that everyonewas God great thing.
(06:21):
Didn't really know what it wouldmean until we were a pilot
project to integrate the schoolsin North Carolina a year ahead
of mandated integration, whowere in my newly integrated high
(06:43):
school and we began to knoweach other and visit with each
other, really learning about thedifferent lives.
And the only time that I wouldreally have gone to the black
section of town was thatsometimes I would ride with my
(07:05):
mom to take our maid home andshe lived in one of the projects
and, you know, was like amember of our family.
But I'd never really known,never known any Black friends,
because the town was actuallydivided by a railroad in two
counties and more of the blackcitizens lived in one county
(07:28):
edgecombe county, and we livedin nash county, but it was all
the town of rocky mount, about40 000 people, so it was a very
segregated town till the late60s I know about the train
tracks because I mean a lot ofus in the course of our visions,
training or various retreatshave been to Rocky Mount.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (07:49):
I did not know that that was the dividing line
for the counties and I'mcurious is that intentional
districting?
Louise Coggins (07:57):
Well, it is from the 1800s or earlier.
So, yes, I think that was justthe line, and there's less
wealth in Edgecombe County, andthat is where more of the Black
neighborhoods were, where Valand Ida grew up.
Angela was just on the whiteside of the tracks, but still a
(08:23):
very distinct Black neighborhood.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:26):
How old were you when the pilot integration
project was happening?
Louise Coggins (08:32):
Well, I was 15.
Our sophomore year.
They knew it was going tohappen, so they chose one Black
and white boy and girl from thehigh school.
Booker T Washington was theblack school and the white high
school Sparkmount Senior HighSchool.
And so I was chosen from myclass and we met a year ahead
(08:56):
and we would meet at Booker Tone week and meet at Senior High
.
And we met even withoutteachers.
They wanted the students todecide things like how many
black cheerleaders, how manywhite cheerleaders, based on
that 60-40.
There were 60% white people inRockville and in the, and then
(09:17):
it would switch.
The next semester we chose thename of the mascot, which was a
joining of the Bucatis lion andRocky Mountains blackbirds,
which were a reference torailroad workers.
(09:39):
And so we became the Griffons,which is a mythical beach which
is half bird and half lion.
And nobody knew what it was.
So everybody asked us andpeople wrote about it, because
that had never been a mascotanyway.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:57):
Sweet.
What a beautifully inventivesolution.
Yeah, now I'm curious.
You thought to join thiscommittee, this effort, and from
what you've said, I imaginethat this would have been your
most long-term proximateencounter across that form of
difference.
Right, were there any formativeexperiences or just things that
(10:22):
you noticed or experienced orsaw or heard about that
sharpened your awareness?
Because I'm really struck bywhat you said about.
I forget what the phrase youused exactly was, but you felt
good and like the world was agood place.
What changed that awareness foryou, if anything?
Louise Coggins (10:41):
Well, I remember , maybe my first experience was
probably as a five or six yearold, and in Rocky Mount the
meals is two industry towntobacco and cotton and the black
citizens mainly could work inthe fields in tobacco and the
(11:02):
white workers these were theworking class people worked in
the mills, and there wereseveral of those, and the mill
was from the early 1800s andthere were mill worker families
that would live in these tinymill village homes like little
(11:23):
shotgun houses for generationsof you know five generations of
mill workers.
But they were never able to ownthe houses.
They worked for a very low wage, better than the black wages.
But in Christmas time we wouldhave a party, the meal would,
(11:44):
and so my father and his bestfriend, whose family had owned
the meal for generations, wewould give out gifts to the meal
children, so they would haveSanta, and then I would go and
give little gifts to some of themeal children and I would ask
my dad why do they not havepresents, or why are we giving
(12:06):
them presents and why don't theyhave Santa Claus?
You know, the same way that wehad Christmas and of course he
would try to explain it, but youknow there was no good reason
except classism and what hadbeen going on for many
generations.
So I just remember thinkingthis is not right and that was
(12:29):
just looking at white povertyand class issues.
And then I would rememberdriving into the Black
neighborhoods with my family andyou know, to pick up or to take
our maid when she couldn't geta bus, and I would notice the
housing and just look at howdifferent it was and I would
(12:53):
question it.
And even from our faith, theEpiscopal Church began to work
with the Black Episcopal Church,which Dr Val that's her family
went to and I went to the bigwhite Episcopal church and we
had some interracial servicesand the church, the Episcopal
(13:13):
church, is very progressive andI started meeting people even
before going to school throughchurch things, even before going
to school through church things.
But going to school was a verypowerful experience because
there were people who did notwant the integration to work,
(13:37):
both white and black, and lotsof my friends went to private
academies that were just raceacademies, that were started to
just be sure that childrendidn't have to go to school with
black people.
Then a lot of them went toboarding schools and my parents,
you know, were somewhat afraidjust because there was so much
(13:57):
talk about it's going to bedangerous.
And I told them, if they triedto make me go to St Mary's and
Episcopal Girls or anywhere, Iwould just walk home.
I mean, no matter what, I wasgoing to this school and they
believed me.
I was pretty strong-willed, sothat was fine and they supported
it.
But then after about the firstsix weeks, there were race riots
(14:21):
at the school and the countrywas looking at this and it was
Howard Fuller, who's still alive.
He was a black separatist whobelieved that integration would
cause the loss of blackleadership in their own legacies
and identity and they would beswept up into whiteness.
(14:45):
And of course it's true, theblack principal became the
assistant principal.
The black teachers were not thehighest level of the teachers,
it was all.
They came into our school anddid it our way.
I understand now exactly whatthey were doing, but they
brought in busloads of youngblack militants who looked like
(15:08):
students and they came in with,you know, knives and chains and
whatever, and some people wereinjured.
Nobody died and I was.
They had a rape list and a killlist which was published and I
was, you know.
Eventually I was headcheerleader.
I was on the student committeethat had a plan did.
(15:30):
I was became number one on therape list and so then the most
well-known white boys were onthe kill list and it did terrify
people.
And so they brought in a 65 manpolice force from all over
eastern North Carolina.
We were given on the girls onthe list and the cheerleaders
(15:52):
and whoever.
We got a ammonia spray gun andwe got like a little plastic
spray gun.
We had tear gas guns becausethey were not illegal yet and we
had a police escort that came.
They were in our school, whichwas a big, sprawling school with
a lot of trailers, because wehad to integrate 600 students
(16:16):
from the black school with the1,200 who were already there,
and so you would have to go toparts of the campus and not
right inside the school.
So I had a policeman pick me upat every class.
Then we were given they broughtin a black belt.
Nobody had ever heard of thatin the 60s.
We had to take judo, jiu-jitsu,karate, the girls on the rape
(16:40):
list.
We learned 10 ways to maim andkill.
I mean this was not my life andI'm thinking this is just kill.
I mean this was not my life andI'm thinking this is just wild.
I mean it was life changing,but it never occurred to me.
This wasn't where I wanted tobe and I went to those things
because I had to and you know, Ifelt perfectly safe.
I never felt threatened by Blackstudents in any way and we had
(17:05):
police protection at games.
The cheerleaders had an escortthat go to the bathroom.
There was a white student thatwas shot when he made a football
touchdown and it was at theblack high school in Durham.
They never found who did it,and so we had to start playing
games in the afternoons, not atnight.
(17:27):
We were, I was like thehomecoming queen, but we
couldn't have open cars and ridearound in convertibles.
We had to ride around in littlered wagons inside the school gym
for our homecoming.
Everything changed.
So it was a time where a lot ofpeople then took their kids out
(17:50):
of senior high and five of mybest friends stayed and we
worked with the black studentsand we worked MLK celebrations
that Val and her friends led waybefore MLK Day.
But anyway, it was justlife-changing.
I knew from that point on I wasnot going to have the same life
(18:14):
that would have happened if Iwent to all segregated schools,
you know, like people who werejust a year older than me had
done.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (18:27):
Now, you said something when we spoke before
about the KKK showing up.
Was that in connection withyour efforts to integrate
schools?
Louise Coggins (18:36):
Well, indirectly .
So.
It was again 1969, 1970, thefirst year and I was cheerleader
, val's brother was thequarterback of the football team
.
We were in a class together, weworked on the yearbook together
(18:56):
, we were both Episcopalians,had gone to Episcopal camp
together, you know, and we justfell in love and that became
something that terrified a lotof people in Rocky Mountain.
We had to keep it a secret.
My parents knew and they werejust really afraid for my safety
and someone had slid.
(19:17):
Her brother's name was Roscoe,we called him, he was her young
brother, so they had slid histires when he had come near my
neighborhood, and so webasically just always had to
meet in his side of town withhis parents and friends and
whatever.
(19:37):
My dad did not tell me, butyears later he told me that
someone tipped him off, that theKu Klux Klan was going to come
to our house, which was on asmall cul-de-sac on the lake in
Rockmount, and so none of mydad's friends were in the KKK,
but someone found out.
(19:58):
So in the middle of the nighthe sat out there.
He didn't have guns, but he hada hunting gun, a rifle, because
everybody in eastern northcarolina hunted, and so he just
sat out on our front porch withhis gun across his legs and then
the trucks sort of driving inthe middle of the night and he
knew that's who it was.
(20:19):
So he waved to them with hisgun and of course they just went
around the circle and left anddid not burn across.
Nothing happened.
He did not tell people, did notget into the newspapers and he
only told me that after I wasgrown.
But it was just a.
(20:40):
It was just a time where wewere living out what we had been
taught.
You know, yeah, everyone, andthat we were working.
That went to carolina, workingfor women's rights, marching for
the era, marching for civilrights.
Everything was a protest and Ihad been this cheerleader
(21:06):
debutante would have been in asorority.
My mom was in a big sorority atCarolina and I said, no, you
know, gonna be a social activist, I'm gonna be a rebel, I'm
gonna be, you know, a hippie.
At that point I wasn't reallyinto drugs, but I was with that
counterculture and Val was atCarolina and she and Angela were
(21:31):
a big part of the Black studentmovement and my best friend and
I helped start the Associationof Women Students and we brought
Gloria Steinem and Jane Fondantand all kinds of famous women
to the campus and protested justall the time.
So we were doing movementstogether and that was just
(21:52):
really what college was about.
I mean, I was majoring inpsychology, taking sociology and
just living it out.
It was more about what you didnot in class that the education
was about.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (22:09):
I want to backtrack a little bit and ask
you about getting to know themin junior high and high school
what that was like.
Louise Coggins (22:16):
Well, angela was two grades ahead of me, so I
was in seventh grade, she was inninth grade, which was still
junior high.
Back then I was in seventhgrade, she was in ninth grade,
which was still junior high.
Back then she came, the mayorof Rocky Mountain, who were
(22:48):
neighbors, and he was a liberal,for the but equal had changed
to freedom of choice in theSouth, which meant that a Black
student could go to a whiteschool.
So she was the only personBlack person in a tremendous
junior high over in ourneighborhood and I didn't really
have classes with her because Iwas younger, but I would see
her in the ninth grade hall.
And one of the most populargirls who was a cheerleader with
(23:11):
me, susan Gravely, who is nowon our Visions Advisory Board
for many years and founder of afamous Italian pottery company,
vietri.
She was very popular and shejust said Angela, you're with me
, took her, let her sip with her.
So she sat in the lunchroom orin assemblies with Susan.
(23:37):
Susan's father was president ofChina American Tobacco Company,
so she had been all over theworld and seen the world as a
multicultural place and soAngela basically gave up her
childhood to go to white schoolsand they did not integrate
until the year after Angelagraduated.
(24:00):
So she never, never got to go tothe integrated school.
So then Val and Ida andPatricia Penn, who's been on our
board since the beginning Ijoined the first year after they
had formed it.
They asked me to join it,patricia and I joined.
They had formed it.
They asked me to join it,patricia and I joined, and they
(24:27):
were seniors and I was a juniorduring that first year.
So then I got to go to schoolwith them for a year and then,
of course, went to Carolina andthey were already at Carolina
and just you know would see themon campus and talk with them
and just you know it was totallylife changing because they were
some of my favorite people.
And I remember I was stilldating Val's brother and he
(24:53):
became the first whitequarterback at a white
university.
He went to Appalachian State.
He was nominated for theMoorhead but went because they
told him he could be thestarting quarterback and so I
would travel to see him there.
He would come to Carolina andwe eventually broke up and I met
(25:15):
my husband, who has joined mein this movement, and marched
with me for everything atCarolina.
But it was a very powerful timeand so we continued to say this
is wrong.
We have to change the world.
(25:38):
And you know the innocence andthe enthusiasm and the passion
of youth who believe we can doanything.
Who's going to stop us?
We said, ok, we're going tofight racism and sexism and
every other form of oppression.
And so Val gets her PhD, angelagets her law degree, ida gets
(26:00):
her education degree, becomes aprincipal.
Val meets John, the fourthfounder at Duke, at the PhD
psychology school, and they thenhave the grounds to start
something as a therapist andthey Val writes the theory of
(26:25):
modern racism, which is such anamazing, groundbreaking truth to
power.
And we, you know, kept alwayssaying how are we going to
change the world?
So they formed visions and theyasked me to join the board.
And there are a few whitemembers and a few white staff,
but largely a woman-owned,black-owned organization,
(26:47):
non-profit.
So I've been on the board now,for this will be my 40th year
coming up and it was a lot offamily and friends board.
Val's father was the chair andthen when he died, her mother
became the board chair and thenher mother was not able to do
(27:11):
that in her older years, so theyasked me to be the chair, which
I have done for decades andhave loved it, and we have
looked for new chairs, and wealways are.
But we have new board membersand I've just said I would stay
on as long as my long historyand legacy could be helpful to
(27:33):
the newer board members and thechanging of the board to be more
of a real governance board.
So that's where we are in thepast 10 years or so and it's
been great to see the growth ofthe board Really just a
wonderful thing.
And so many people say they geton this board, they do not want
(27:57):
to leave, and we've had peoplePatricia's going to rotate off
off and I will as soon as theychoose the next year.
But you know, for 40 years thisis, this is life for, and of
course, what we thought is wewould be finished, but the world
(28:27):
itself would have become aprogressive place where you know
training about the evils ofoppression would not be an
everyday need.
And the disappointment is, ofcourse, that it's more than ever
and it's a lifetime work and wetrain people around the world.
Lena, I went to South Africa forweeks with Val.
I was the only white person onthat trip and seeing the way
(28:47):
white South Africans treated mewas amazing.
You would have thought I was,you know, safe traveling around
with them and what kind of stuffwent on.
We went to Brazil and worked inthe favelas.
We went to Cuba and we wereworking in so many places and
board members and consultantscould go and see oppression very
(29:13):
much active.
But now the United States isworse than so many places that
we did groundbreaking work in.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:23):
So here's a question that I have for you the
work we do, it is still needed.
I'm not going to say moreneeded than ever, but because
it's hard to draw that kind ofcomparison and for a model that
was pioneered 40 years ago, Icontinually am amazed at how
robust it is and how applicableit is.
(29:44):
I did most of my growing upoutside of the United States and
there are not many DEIapproaches that I resonated with
, and this one I resonated withbecause it does work across
variables of oppression.
It is adaptable, as you've said, to different contexts.
So, in terms of how yourexperience of the isms, which
(30:05):
are still there, right, there'sstill racism, there's still
sexism, there's still homophobiaWould you characterize it as
manifesting differently now thanit did before?
Louise Coggins (30:16):
differently now than it did before.
Well, yes, I mean you know frombeing a consultant, the four
levels of the isms.
We've dealt with the legal,although we're going backwards
on laws, as you know.
But we have the institutionalprotections, at least in this
(30:37):
country those are threatenedevery day by a former president.
But the interpersonal and, ofcourse, the internalized
oppression is still there.
At the cultural level, yes,there's more black-white
marriages.
There's no law against it.
(30:57):
There's more black whitefriendships.
There's people at work, but thebasic society is still very
segregated.
Even if they're black people ina neighborhood, it's not always
that that is a friendship astypical as the white-white
(31:19):
friendship.
So the black-black friendship.
So I think it is just more nail.
With all of the hate that hasbeen spewed and with racism
becoming very much accepted andsexism and homophobism and
religious discrimination andeverything.
(31:43):
Every ism is now just out thereand it's considered to be quite
fun to say outrageous, untrue,illegal, horrible statements
about anybody.
Because of certain politicalpeople who have a tremendous
(32:04):
following and because of media.
There does not need to be anyfact check to anything that is
said about a transgender personor about a black person, or you
know a gay person, or you know,women, what they've done.
They are scorned.
They're just crazy things said.
So it is less outrageous nowthan it was.
(32:29):
There is a whole movementagainst quote political
correctness, which was aprotection against saying
horrible, racist statements.
Why is that called politicallycorrect?
That is humane, that isinterpersonal caring, and that
all people are worthy of respect, of God's love, of the love of
(32:55):
other people, of other people,and that is just no longer
believed by a large segment ofpeople who have been taught to
compete with Black workers, withLatino workers, with whatever
it is.
It is a setup so that there ishate, that is fueling the
(33:17):
political division and the fightfor resources, and it's just
insane.
And lies are told all day longon TV, on news stations, and
some people do not realize thatwhat they're reading or seeing
is not the least bit true.
So that is where I see it beingworse.
(33:39):
So that is where I see it beingworse and that there's really
not truth known for largesegments of the population.
I mean my friends, and I saycan you believe that somebody
believes that?
And then I'll listen and I hear.
I.
I hear people, not people thatI really spend time with, but
(34:02):
people who vote.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (34:04):
Yeah, it's there.
Yeah, I appreciate thatperspective.
I appreciate hearing yourperspective as somebody who's
lived through it and really seenthe arc of it over the last
several decades.
So yeah, so you joined theboard a year after the
organization formed.
When did you attend your firstPACE?
Louise Coggins (34:26):
I believe that was so.
That was 84.
I think it was like maybe 91 or92.
And it was the first time itcame near.
You know, I work full-time, seepatients all day long, so I had
enough notice.
And it was the four days thatwere going to be in Rocky Mound.
I was in Raleigh so I was ableto travel back and forth, stay
(34:48):
with my mom and actually Angelawas one of the trainers and
there was always a white person,a black person, a male, a
female, you know, among thethree.
It was a great mix.
And so I knew the theory, I'dread the papers, but the
experience in it was wonderfuland met people just said common
(35:13):
everyday work sites in RockyMountain and the surrounding
counties, a large manufacturingcorporation which was trying to
do some multicultural work, asthey called it then, and we had
the inner group, you know.
So we would meet with just thewhite people and then you would
(35:34):
meet with the integrated groupand we had all the different
exercises, which was fascinatingto watch how it unfolded,
especially me being a therapistwho did word therapy all the
time, and watching thosedynamics and how different the
conversations were in all theexercises that they asked us to
(35:57):
do.
It was very powerfulexperiential work and very deep
work.
And throughout my time it hasbeen easy to promote the work of
visions because anybody that Iwould talk to friends that ran
nonprofits, friends that were inthe government or medical
(36:21):
educational churches I would saythis is really the real thing.
And they would say, especiallyas diversity work became more
common in the 90s, early 2000s,they would say we've been to
this training for four hours atthis and my church got this and
(36:43):
it was just meaningless.
It was checking the box.
And one of my good friends is anEpiscopal priest.
He had a 4,000-member church inAtlanta.
After Val came.
It was one of the trainers forthe leaders of his church.
He had like 13 priests and theywere all different races and
(37:05):
sexes.
He said this changed my church.
It was, you know, such anamazing transformation downtown
Atlanta and he said this is thework.
I want to do something to tellpeople about it.
So he became a board member.
You know, donor obviouslywrites comments like this is the
(37:26):
one that if you're going tohave training, take this one.
And then, of course, as youknow, we did massive
interventions throughout theNational Episcopal Church and
other churches and everywhere,people would say this is the
real thing.
This one changed me from theinside out.
This is what I remember.
(37:46):
I remember the experiences ofthe training.
I don't have to go back andread the articles that we were
given.
I remember what.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (37:57):
I felt.
Louise Coggins (37:58):
I remember what the other people were feeling
and it was transformative andthat is why people will choose
us.
It's more in-depth work, it'sharder to do it, it's at more of
a personal cost of confrontingfeelings and it is confronting
(38:20):
our own racism, confrontinginternalized oppression,
whatever.
I don't see other trainingsthat do that at the same level.
So as a lifetime therapist, youcan tell that psychologically
minded people, valent, john andwhoever else, are part of it.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (38:38):
Yeah.
Louise Coggins (38:39):
They came up with the theories and they found
the work that would be trulychanging.
That would change anyorganization, including, you
know, tens of thousands ofprocter and gamble workers,
(38:59):
whoever started working with us.
It was like I want everyone inour company to know.
I want the whole internationalforce of leaders, salespeople,
whatever I want them to havethis training.
It was very compelling.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:16):
Yeah, yeah, I hear that, and I think one of
the both smartest and keyfeatures of this model is how it
does scaffold people for thedifficult emotional work.
It doesn't just leave peoplehanging out to dry with them.
Louise Coggins (39:35):
Yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:35):
Great.
I see your long resume here andI have some curiosity about
your work as a therapist, so Iwant to ask you about that in a
minute.
And before I ask you about that, you are clearly very involved
in fundraising and working onthese really important issues
from that really key angle.
(39:56):
How did you get into that andhow do you think about it?
It's a world that I'm very farremoved from, so I am curious.
Louise Coggins (40:04):
Well, I think I just had a natural ability to
sell what I believe in In theMyers-Briggs.
I'm an ENFJ, so when I believein something, I can commit
somebody.
I don't mean to do that, it'sjust the way I always was, from
a child, and I would get on theintercom in high school and say
(40:27):
we're going to have 10 busesgoing to Raleigh, we're going to
have more people at thisfootball game than the hometown
does, and people would buytickets and we'd take six buses.
But hometown does, and peoplewould buy tickets and we'd take
six buses.
I mean, I had a sense that whensomething is good and you want
to promote that, you got to sellit.
(40:48):
You got to get people to puttheir money where their mouth is
.
So early on I startedfundraising for any nonprofit
that I was involved with,because most people don't like
fundraising or they don't liketo ask for money.
I have so many fundraisers andpeople like I have one party a
year, that's just for friendsand I don't ask them for money,
(41:10):
and everybody comes and they'relike okay, what are we raising
money for?
Now, for the older people, I'vegot my checkbook.
Well, no, I'll just give youwhat would you like?
I'm like no, this is my thankyou for you going to 25 events
this year and paying for themall.
And it's so funny because theydon't mind, because they know
(41:31):
I'm only selling what's good,good in my mind, something that
is going to help them to knowmore about, something that is
going to help them to know moreabout, whereas I started working
on human trafficking issuesvery early, from years of
working with abused women andchildren, incest, rape, the
whole women's movement.
Who's going to be against that?
(41:52):
I mean, who's going to say,yeah, human trafficking and used
to.
Nobody would say, you know,we're pro-racism.
Now they do.
But I mean it was causes thatyou could just be sure people
wanted to join, it was not hard.
So I just felt, anytime Ijoined a board or you know,
(42:14):
people said what can you do?
I'll help you raise money.
I have wealthy people that livearound me, wealthy friends, and
they have so much money andthey want to know where to give
it.
And so people call me up whatshould I give money to?
What candidates, what causes?
(42:36):
And that is so wonderfulbecause it makes it very easy,
and so it was just part of mynatural personality.
And then, knowing that theseorganizations couldn't do it
without money.
Visions didn't have money.
We founded the Right Center wasone of our spinoffs.
(42:57):
It was a vigorous interventionin a natural setting, the first
we wanted to show our work onageism.
So we did this incredibly greatadult day health care center
and John Kapterman is agerontologist helps us.
We get a film done I think itwas by Harvard about being one
(43:20):
of the first centers in thecountry to do what we were doing
.
And so we didn't have money.
Nobody in Rocky Mountain hadmoney much.
So we would bring in thesespeakers and have these big
banquets and the speakers wouldcome for free Sports people,
political people, governors, Iwould just every year we would
ask somebody movie star and theywould say, okay, that's amazing
(43:44):
what you're doing, bringingblack and white elders together
in 1984, when nobody was doingthat, and having an excellent
service and people getting toknow each other, particularly
that generation.
So know, we have this giantbanquet, 500 people a year, and
it is just.
(44:05):
It's just easy to do becauseit's needed.
The work cannot be done withoutfunding grant writing.
Val was great at gettingKellogg when the grants were big
for anti-racism work.
Now people are afraid of it andafraid they'll be fired for
even talking about it.
(44:26):
And it was a lot of money thatwe were able to say look what we
are doing.
And we would just find peopleand tell them about it.
And you know, it's the sixdegrees of separation, or
however many it's always wewould know somebody who had
power and we would reach out andget money.
(44:46):
So it's just kind of fun.
It's never, never been painful.
My friends are like okay, ifyou just won't call me so many
times, I'll just send it, justsend me.
And now, since we have emailand text, I don't have to call
people, but I'll call them.
(45:07):
Just tell me where to send themoney.
I'm fine if you believe in it,it's fine and I'll send you
money.
I have the.
Don't come to an event anddon't have to talk to me on the
phone.
Fundraising plan, which peoplelove.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (45:23):
Yeah, yeah, I imagine that you're kind of
taking the mental load for them.
Louise Coggins (45:28):
Yeah, here's.
Here's a good place to spendmoney.
You don't even have to come andhear about it.
But here's some info if youwant.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (45:37):
Fabulous.
I love that.
You think it's fun.
I love that.
Yeah, beautiful.
Now you said you've been atherapist for 50 years and in
private practice for 45 yeah itsounds from what you said that
you've done various forms ofpractice, like all over the map.
I'm curious what led you tobecome a counselor and a
(45:59):
therapist and how yourperspective has changed over
time, particularly with respectto learning about
anti-oppression frameworks.
Louise Coggins (46:07):
Well, there weren't psychiatrists or mental
health people growing up inRocky Mound, but I used to like
the guidance counselors.
Or I just love to talk topeople about problems, or I just
love to talk to people aboutproblems and my friends would
call up and I would sit on thephone and there was you had
these long cords.
People would ask me advice andI would give advice.
(46:28):
Boys, girls.
My parents said you have tofind a way to be paid to tell
people what to do and to heartheir problems, and I didn't
know what that was.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (46:38):
Yeah, because look at these phone bills.
Louise Coggins (46:41):
So then I go to Carolina.
Well, I go to governor's school, which is a very progressive
thing in North Carolina, and soI'm able to take psychology and
sociology.
They didn't teach it in highschools and I was like, oh, this
is my thing.
So I go to Carolina major inpsychology.
I go to Carolina major inpsychology.
(47:04):
Then I think, okay, but socialwork is really the combination
of the internal process ofpsychology and changing the
world through that.
So got my master's in socialwork.
I chaired a board for the Schoolof Social Work for Carolina,
which is number four in theworld School of Social Social
Work.
I chair the board for UNCW, forthe College of Health and Human
(47:24):
Services, and I just stayed inthat form of academics.
I'll teach classes.
I wanted to always practicefull time, but I teach, I train,
I supervise other therapists.
I teach, I train, I superviseother therapists and basically
there's not anything I haven'tseen, from addictions to every
(47:46):
form of psychiatric diagnosis,every age, two-year-olds to
98-year-olds.
So it's never been boring forone minute and it's so involved
with what I believe that peoplecan change and I look at the
oppression in people'sindividual families, as well as
(48:07):
their societal oppression, tohelp them find that empowerment
and it's just so.
I mean, my dad would say youcan do anything.
As I was a little girl and hejust believed my mom was, she
was so smart.
He would say you can doanything.
(48:28):
And girls didn't really hearthat.
And he would tell me oh, gowork for NASA, work for the
United Nations.
And I was like what are those?
You know, I was like eightyears old or something, but he
believed in girls and hebelieved in me and so I had that
empowerment, even thoughsociety said I could not play
(48:49):
sports, I could only letter andcheerleading.
I could not get the MoorheadScholarship, which is the most
distinguished scholarship in allof North Carolina.
I was valedictorian of 600people, but the boys got the
scholarships.
I would have probably beennominated for it, but I never
felt it internally.
I always felt I can do anything.
(49:19):
You're not going to give it tome, but I can do it.
And so I wanted to teach that toother women who had come from
families who didn't believe theycould do anything, and to teach
it to young children whoseparents have problems, but I
could teach them a different way, and to just work on whatever
(49:40):
mental illnesses people wereblamed for and stigmatized, for
there were cures and this wasnot people's fault.
And I wanted to change thatwhole view of mental health.
And so that's been the amazingthing in the 50 years what we
believed in the 70s about mentalillness and what we know now.
(50:02):
And it's just so wonderful tobe able to say this is how your
brain was made.
It was genetic.
Here's how environment affectedit, but here's what you can do
about it.
And we have this treatment, thattreatment, this medication
Affected it, but here's what youcan do about it.
And we have this treatment,that treatment, this medication.
It's so.
That's why I'm not an oncologysocial worker, because almost
every person that comes to mecan find a better life.
(50:23):
So it's such an enjoyablecareer.
I'm 70.
I'll be doing it at least 10years more because I'm healthy.
I can't not help people.
I would be doing it just as ahobby if I wasn't still working.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:44):
So it's been a really amazing career an
opportunity to just know so manypeople at such a deep level.
So is there a framework thatdidn't exist when you started,
that exists now, thatsignificantly changed or
revolutionized the way that youwork or see people?
Louise Coggins (51:06):
Well, yes, I mean in the seventies we thought
the mothers caused everythingfor the parents.
They were the schizophrenicmothers.
And pretty soon, by the 80s, weknew that was biological.
The mothers didn't cause it abit, or autism or any of that.
And we saw that it's been thebrain, the neuroscience and
(51:28):
which I love and I study, andgenetics and the parts of the
brain that we can see are onfire and we know this medication
changes that.
The person all of a sudden isjust able to be so different.
But I always just rebelledagainst it.
I always believed that in arelational approach, the
(51:49):
relational psychotherapy whichwas so popularized by the
women's movement and by a lot offeminist therapists that the
whole I was never much of apsychoanalytic person where I'm
going to not interrelate and I'mgoing to be just.
My patients know me.
I use personal examples.
(52:09):
You can't not be known now onthe internet.
They know everything about mebefore they come into my office.
But I talk to them in a waythat is just relational.
I care about them.
You know.
I hug them if that's somethinggood.
I talk to them about theirfaith if that's something they
(52:30):
want.
I don't use this very formalanalytical way that we were
taught.
It's just quite different,quite different.
I mean, we're in the trenches.
People are dying.
The mental health crisis sinceCOVID.
Young people risk suicide.
(52:50):
People of color risk, gay transpeople.
The risk is so high.
We cannot mess around.
We have to just talk to peoplein a way that we are sure that
we are hearing them.
We cannot sit back and justlisten.
We have to intervene becausepeople can walk out and kill
(53:13):
themselves, and so it's a muchmore interactive, dynamic kind
of therapy.
People always said to me I likethat, you give me ideas and you
will tell me don't do that,that's going to hurt, you Do
this.
And that was very unpopular.
It was like all self-directed,you just listen, uh-huh, that
(53:36):
sounds good.
Well, crazy.
No, that sounds like you'regoing to die if you do that
again, you know, and so I wasalways that kind of therapist.
So people always came to me andsaid will you please tell me
how to stop this?
You know, and whatever.
So, but it is more acceptablenow that we have to be so active
(53:57):
.
We have to really just becareful.
We have to pursue patients.
We cannot.
Just we know they're in gravedanger.
We can't just wait to see ifthey want to come back.
We, you know, I talked tofamily members.
I mean, I follow ethics, but Iam not going to let someone go
down, and so it's just a verymuch interactive type of work,
(54:25):
what you're saying.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (54:25):
I've experienced the difference in
that and there's a degree ofreally genuine care in your
approach that I've been on thereceiving end of and it was
actually really profound andtransformative for me, right.
Louise Coggins (54:41):
I'm so glad we just.
You know, I always thought Iwas a therapist before I got my
master's.
I was one of the last people inthe state I worked in mental
health and didn't have mymaster's and they sent me.
But I always felt like I hadmore natural instincts.
Almost before I got thetraining I just wanted to follow
(55:01):
what I thought, what my mind,having been raised in a normal,
healthy family, what it told me.
This is something not right,Even before I knew all the
diagnoses.
Something is really happeninghere that's bad.
So I think training is great.
I'm so glad I got my degree andtake ongoing clinical, you know
(55:24):
education all the time and Ithink we have to think about
what makes sense you know that'scrazy sound and and just really
listen for what is happening inthat person's life and what
does that person need, which isvery individualized.
So that is always what I'vedone, but it's much more now an
(55:50):
acceptable approach, perceptibleapproach.
So I'm just so glad that I gotto see it change, to see all the
things that weren't right, thatwe now have research and brain
knowledge of what's really goingon, right I'm curious now.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (56:12):
You know at the at this point in your life
and in your work, there's twoquestions that I like to ask
toward the end of theconversation.
One is what would you hope toteach and pass on to people who
are in this work right, inwhatever capacity?
The other question is are therethings that you still want to
(56:36):
learn?
Slash what would you like tosee in the world?
Louise Coggins (56:40):
Yeah, well, I would like to teach the young
people and the people who willfollow, all of us, the founders
of visions and all of us who areaging, that never give up, that
it can look like it's a reallybad time and then amazing things
happen Like George Floyd, thatdeath was so horrible and yet we
(57:04):
could see the world changing.
And to always remember thatevery effort counts, even if you
don't see the transformationimmediately.
That when you look back on 40years, yes, you can see it Inch
by inch.
In the trenches it's reallyhard.
And when you're working withthe pain of people in really
(57:29):
oppressed areas, like Visionshas done, worked with bad stuff,
or when you work with reallystubborn high-level corporate or
whoever is running anorganization and they're really
not wanting to make the change,it's just believing, keeping on
with the process, keeping onusing the tools.
(57:50):
For instance, with Visions, Iuse them every day in my
practice.
I give the guidelines forcommunication every couple or I
use them every day in mypractice.
I give the guidelines forcommunication Every couple or
family that I'm seeing.
They have to read those,clarify.
Do they understand it, whatever?
And so I think I want people tostay encouraged, to encourage
(58:12):
each other to seek outcommunities where, even when
you're seeing hate spewed andviolence, where you see love,
where you see true community,where you see the people of the
world in diversity, and to livein that environment with people
(58:34):
who don't just think like youbut care like you do.
Even if they have differentthoughts, they still care that
problems of the world be solved.
They may have a differentapproach, or where can they work
together with other people ofany age who are wanting to
(58:56):
change something and to try toget away from divisiveness.
I'm hoping after November 5thwe will have a country that can
be about love and care forfellow humanity and not about
winning and about competing, andsome of the things that we have
(59:20):
seen take over the mindsets ofso many good people.
So I want to encourage them tostay, stay the course and not to
give up and not to stop doingtheir volunteer work.
Not to say I'm not going to vote, not all of that just when they
see the horror since weintegrated the schools, because
(59:52):
I feel like I've been leading avision slide experientially for
55 of my 70 years and I want tosee the world that we've all
been working for.
I want to see it more ineveryday life and people that I
know who live and are with otherpeople that are different,
(01:00:18):
people of color, any kind ofpeople, and they are just living
their lives together and it's anatural and normal type of
process and situation where wedon't have to teach about it
because people are living andthe world looks like the Visions
community and it looks like welove and accept the wonderful
(01:00:44):
uniqueness of every person.
I mean we appreciatedifferences.
I love that Visions was thefirst group I know of to say
that we want to was the firstgroup I know of to say that we
want to not tolerate, not justunderstand.
We want to appreciate andleverage the differences to
(01:01:05):
change the world.
That's the world.
That's what I want to see.
That's what I want to keeplearning how to do, how to do it
in my everyday life, how toteach other people to do it, how
to encourage people that theycan have a different
conversation, just even in theirown family or in a book club or
in a friendship group of anykind, if there are churches
wherever.
(01:01:26):
That the change will keep on,that we won't burn out, we won't
give up and we won't becomecomplacent or think it's already
happened, because we could seethat that is not true.
We have to keep at it.
We have to normalize it.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (01:01:45):
Beautiful Louise.
Thank you so much.
This was really a pleasure.
Nice to get to know you in thisway.
Oh, thank you, Lena a pleasure,nice to get to know you in this
way.
Oh, thank you, marina.
On September 27th 2024, we aregoing to be celebrating Vision's
40th anniversary at the StateRoom in Boston.
Our honored speakers includeGloria Steinem, vernee Myers and
(01:02:06):
the Reverend Dr William JBarber II.
There is still time to buytickets, so I put a link to that
and more details in the shownotes.
Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.
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