Social Justice and Land Sovereignty: PACE Connect @ Foxfire Ranch

What if you could immerse yourself in a captivating blend of personal stories, history, and introspective exploration, all while gaining powerful insights into racial equity, social justice, and their intricate relationship with land?

That's exactly what we're offering in today's episode as we talk about PACE Connect @ Foxfire Ranch, taking place from March 15-19, 2024 in Mississippi's Hill Country. Foxfire Ranch is black sovereignty and community gathering space in Waterford, Mississippi. PACE Connect will be led by our  colleagues and friends, Dr. Jeanne Firth and Jabari Carmichael, who talk us through intersections of racial equity, social justice, and land justice . We further explore the importance of understanding our relationship with land and the histories intertwined with it in the context of outdoor education and leadership development.

Mississippi native Jabari illuminates the significance of hosting this workshop in his home state, delving into  themes of community, relationships, and land sovereignty, work that he has done for nearly 13 years with Jeanne, who comes to the questions from a very different intersection of identities and family history. Anette Hollowell, whose family has owned Foxfire Ranch for over 100 years, speaks at the end about the history of the space and how it transformed into what it is today: a place for gathering, connection, and celebrating the tradition of hill country blues music.

The music you'll hear in this episode is a hill country blues track called "Foxfire," composed for the venue by musician Lightnin Malcolm (gratefully included with permission from the artist).

Curious to know more? Attend the PACE Connect @ Foxfire Ranch Info Session on December 13, 2023 (and register to receive a recording if you cannot make it!). If you missed the registration period, please email [e-mail] for more information. 

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Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.

Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.

VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.

Any opinions and views expressed by the speakers are their own and do not reflect the positions of VISIONS, Inc.

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Music credit: Tim Hall
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression I'm LeenaAkhtar , Director of Programs
with Visions Inc.
Welcome.
Hi, everyone.
In this episode, I'm delightedto introduce you to two Visions
consultants, Jeanne Firth andJabari Carmichael, who will be

(00:23):
facilitating a new workshop thatVisions is offering, called
Pace Connect, at Foxfire Ranch.
Foxfire Ranch is a blacksovereignty space located in
Hill Country, Mississippi, whichhas been owned by the Hollowell
family for the last 100 years.
In this conversation, you'llget to know these two wonderful
people, learn a little aboutPace Connect and hear what

(00:43):
holding this workshop outdoors,specifically in connection with
land, means for them.
If you're unfamiliar withVisions, you'll also learn a
little about who we are and whatwe do.
After that, you'll hear fromAnette Hollowell of the
Hollowell family about howFoxfire came to be the venue for
gathering, connection and restthat it is now.
In addition to being agathering space, Foxfire has for

(01:05):
many years had a tradition ofhosting Sunday night Hill
Country Blues concerts.
The music you'll hear duringthe transitions in this episode
is Hill Country Blues Track bymusician Lightning Malcolm, and
it's a track he actually wrote,inspired by the venue called
Foxfire.
Hi everybody, I am very excitedto be here with my colleagues

(01:40):
and friends Dr Jeannie Firth andJabari Carmichael Brown.
Jeannie and Jabari are actuallyin Waterford Mississippi right
now, at the Foxfire Ranch, whichis the site where they're going
to be conducting a full-paceworkshop out on the ranch, out
on the land, in nature, which issomething I'm very excited to
talk to them both about.
Would you introduce yourselvesfor folks who don't know?

Jabari Carmichael (02:02):
you how y'all doing.
I am Jabari Carmichael andwhoever has a very great
question.
I'm still coming to understandthat I'm going to be talking to
them, as it says, now I'm goingto explore and also one half of
this team that's leading PACEConnect.

Jeanne Firth (02:20):
Hi y'all.
I'm Jeannie Firth and I'm avision facilitator.
Jabari and I met about a dozenyears ago at Grotat Youth Farm,
and I'm sure we'll talk a littlebit more about that later.
I'm also an academic and ascholar.
What I really love is thinkingabout place and connection, to

(02:41):
place our relationships witheach other and with the
so-called natural world, andthat is exactly what we're here
to talk about, so I'm reallyexcited.

Leena Akhtar (02:51):
So before when we talked, I was surprised to know
that you had known each otherfor about I'd say it's probably
about 13 years now, and that'sas long as you've been connected
to visions or been in thevision's orbit.
I'd love to hear a little bitabout how you two met and where
you two started collaborating.

Jabari Carmichael (03:08):
Yeah, it'll be 13 years in January, but
Jeannie doesn't feel that longago and it's almost half of our
lives, almost.
So Jeannie and I initially metas founders on a team of four
people in New Orleans and wewere part of the team of
launching Grotat Youth Farm inNew Orleans, and Grotat Youth

(03:30):
Farm is an organization thatuses farming and agriculture to
teach leadership skills toteenagers in New Orleans or to
refine their leadership skills.
We both moved to the city forthat purpose.
I would say that's thebeginning of our career lifetime
together and as staff.
There we hired visions to comein and lead a training for our

(03:55):
staff.
None of us was from the city ofNew Orleans.
I was the closest away, youknow, three and a half hours
away from Mississippi.
I was also the only person ofcolor on staff, so we wanted to
have something to help usnavigate those differences and
especially the difference ofculture being from, you know,
being in New Orleans, where youknow culture is very rich.

(04:17):
So we needed something to beable to help us connect with the
teenagers and understand adifferent way of being that was
different from all of us.

Jeanne Firth (04:27):
I really think, jabari, for me so much of our
origins of even doing this paceat Foxfire Ranch come from the
merger at Grotat of doingoutdoor education kind of
broadly, broadly said, with thehistory of the land work that
you were doing.
So this was all new learningfor me all.
But when we started at Grotatwe were at a space in City Park

(04:50):
and Jabari was very committed tosaying what happened here, what
happened on this land before wetook these few acres and tilled
the soil and had young peopleworking there and so creating
this process really of anongoing engagement to say what
happened here and what does thatmean, right, like not just to
stop at the history but toreally think about how that

(05:12):
shows up in the present and whatthat means.
You know all these years laterto be in that space and so those
sort of origins, right Actually.
And then the merger of visions.
So you've got outdoor education.
Our visions training acrossdifference and really thinking
about oppression and historiesof inequity, plus the history of
the land and being on thatspace have come together both

(05:33):
for our kind of you know, we'vewritten together, we've done
scholarly articles together,that kind of work, but then also
doing it in this very practicaland embedded way, and embodied
way in what we're going to dotogether for this pace at
Foxfire.
So I do think that there's thisdeep thread about the things
that we're interested in.
And then it connects with allof our personal histories, right

(05:54):
, and our interest in beingoutside and being in canoes and
learning about birds all ofthese things that we love
together.

Leena Akhtar (06:01):
Beautiful.
So Goddard was an urban farm inNew Orleans and you two is it.
Do I have it right that you twowere there for its founding?

Jabari Carmichael (06:12):
Yep, that's right, that's right.
Two other people, leo Gormanand Johanna Gilligan, are two
founding directors.

Leena Akhtar (06:22):
Fantastic.
And then you invited visions into help you all relate to each
other across difference better.
I'm very curious about each ofyour early exposures to the
visions model, what that waslike and you know kind of
connected to that, what made youstick around.

Jeanne Firth (06:41):
I'm happy to take that first.
So, for me, as a white person,I have always been really
involved with, committed tosocial justice struggles.
However, I just didn't know howto do that as a white person
like a lack of skillfulnessaround that, and I'm not saying
I have all the answers now,y'all.
It's not like visions, wavesand magic wand and it all just

(07:01):
works.
And, however, though, I thinkwhat visions taught me was
really the idea that I couldstay in the work and in the
conversation, even when it gotreally difficult, so, even when
I got incredibly scared or whenI messed up and felt embarrassed
and ashamed, any of that.
The idea that I could stay inthe, stay in the work and stay

(07:21):
in the, rather than running awayor freaking out or getting
scared or threatened ordefensive, which had been what I
had done my entire early lifeas an activist and person who
cares about justice in the world.
And in that way, it's sort ofbuilding.
I don't know what the word is.
Y'all have a word for this.
What is it Like?
Is it resiliency?
Is it building the stamina?
Right, there's academic wordsfor this too, but it's building
capacity, capacity.

(07:41):
Yeah, beautiful, yeah, capacity.
And then I think that the modelis so relational.
It is too deep and meaningfulfor me to have the relationships
that I have with people acrossgender, race, class, location.
It's too meaningful for me toever run away from right Like
I'm going to stay in it and I'mgoing to struggle in it.
And also this idea that that istransforming me, like really a

(08:03):
reframe for me that justice workwas for the benefit of other
people, and realizing that likeI get free from this too, that
whiteness has cost me thingsJust as much as it's given me so
many privileges.
The harm to my soul and thewound to my soul of racism and
my participation in it is somuch clearer to me now.
Right, so I'm going to stay init and visions does that right.

(08:25):
Like visions teaches the toolsto like, build the capacity and
stay, not run away.
Jabari, how about?

Leena Akhtar (08:30):
you.

Jabari Carmichael (08:32):
I will say what made me stick around with
visions and want to create thatsame like space and opportunity
for other people is the changethat I experienced in myself
Because of this work.
I've done a lot of healingpersonally and healing of
relationships and that feelslike really pivotal, because

(08:53):
visions is all aboutrelationship, right, Like
oppression requires me to notsee some people because of
whatever, because of an identitythey hold, and so this
engagement or re-ignition ofrelationship was like ripe in my
own life, both like personallyand professionally, you know.

(09:14):
And so ever since that momentI've wanted to create that same
experience for every participantthat sits in a session that I'm
leading.
Is that quest, that yearningfor more and I mean that more to
mean to share more ofthemselves, to be curious about
more of other people?

(09:35):
I didn't really have a firmgrasp of what culture was.
I was like you know I don'teven know what that means.
I don't have culture Like.
This is just how we do thingsin Mississippi, where I'm from.
You know we go to the church onSunday, football on Friday
night and we watch the car onSunday.
You know we do these stateBible class on Wednesday.
We have these things that we doand that's what I call it.

(09:56):
It's just what I do, and so,moving and understanding the
tools and processes of visions,I've come to understand that
that is my culture, that that ismy way of doing things.
I would have called that mynorm and that word norm can be
hard for because it assumes thatLena and Jeannie's norm is the

(10:18):
same as my norm, and so thiscreated space for multiple norms
in my life, which has reallycreated more ease, you know,
Because in order for everybodythat's known to be the same as
mine, I have to have somecontrol over the situation or it
set more rules, and when I havemore, as you said, Jeannie's
spaciousness or capacity fordifference, I don't need to be

(10:38):
in control or to designate or todictate the space.
I can just show up and be therewith myself, knowing that how
it is that I am is enough andhow it is that other people show
up in the room is enough.
Sitting in this first visionsession, I was like what is this
Like?
I was very like curious.

(11:00):
I was like curious, but I wasalso like what is this Like?
Because the church that I grewup in is the African Methodist
Episcopal Design Church.
We've named ourself the FreedomChurch.
This is the same church thatHarriet Tubman was a member of,
and so, because of her legacy,that's how we've come to be
known, and so I wasunderstanding, I understood the

(11:22):
plight of black folks as a boyand a man growing up in
Mississippi, black boy and mangrowing up in Mississippi, and
that's about, I would say likethat's kind of how I felt
oppression and experiencedoppression, and then come to
understand that there is a seaof variables, a sea of
identities that I hold or don'thold, that create this reality

(11:46):
that I experienced.
And so I feel very appreciativeof both Greg Gale and Sparkle
Timm's, who are the two peoplewho first led our training
session.
Shout out to both of them.

Jeanne Firth (11:58):
Yes, yes.

Jabari Carmichael (11:59):
I'm not the same person anymore and the
foundation of who I am still,it's core, while I've been able
to change bias and concepts, youknow, by being aware.
So that information is very,very helpful and experiences.

Leena Akhtar (12:16):
Great.
So you two have beencollaborating for a very long
time and this offering thatyou're doing in March of 2024,
Foxfire is a culmination of bothof your deep commitments to
racial equity and social justicework and your respective
connections to, andunderstandings around, land.

(12:36):
So this is a place where Ithink my life experience is very
different and I'd be verycurious to hear each of you talk
about how you think about thiskind of work racial equity,
social justice, anti-oppressionwork in relation to land and in
each of your histories.

Jeanne Firth (12:56):
I think it's like one of the biggest questions,
lena, I mean, particularly forme as a white person in the
United States, and I feel I meanI'll speak to my own narrative
that I feel this wellspring ofmeaning and beauty from my
family's connections to the tallgrass prairie in Kansas, riley

(13:17):
County, kansas, so my Swedishimmigrant family, who's now, I
guess I'm, fourth generation,and the farmers that have been
there and the stewards of thatland it has just been one of the
most meaningful parts of mylife is, even though I didn't
grow up on the farm, I foundthis interesting too, right Like
I was mainly in Kansas City andyet this way in which,

(13:38):
culturally, my family wascountry and they were farmers,
so there's this connection tothe place of where my family has
been and the depth of the rootsthere and they're also just a
few generations, and, as I'vegotten older, this way in which
understanding indigenous peopleall throughout that part of
Kansas that were forciblyremoved and long-term

(14:00):
discrimination for those in thearea.
So it's this well, actually,can I just quote Wendell Berry
here Please?
So, wendell Berry, I am foreverbeing crept up on and newly
startled by the revelation thatmy people established themselves
here by killing or driving outthe original possessors, by the
awareness that people were oncebought and sold here by my

(14:23):
people, by the sense of violencethey have done to their own
kind and to each other and tothe earth, by their persistent
failure to serve either theplace or their own community in
it.
I am forced, against all myhopes and inclinations, to
regard the history of my peoplehere as the progress of the doom
of what I value most in theworld the life and health of the

(14:45):
earth, the peacefulness ofhuman communities and households
.
And so he talks about this wayin which he is.
When he is on his native hillin Kentucky, he is more divided
amongst himself because of theimportance of that relationship
to land and also realizing thathis being there and standing on

(15:06):
that hill is holding andenacting in the present all of
that violence that has beenthere.
And so that is this process, ofwhich I think is we're inviting
this even in work together hereat Foxfire, right.
So, holding this place andlearning the history of this
place, we're gonna try to honorthis space that we're in and

(15:28):
this land, while also invitingthis personal reflection around.
What does it mean for the placesthat you've been and that's
whether you moved constantly asa kid, right, it's whether you
have a sense of being a nomad.
What is our own relationship toplace?
And really, what do thehistories mean today of how it

(15:48):
shows up in the present?
And it's not that that's like Ithink all the time people are
like, well, what's the answer?
And it's like, well, let's talkabout the answers, let's talk
about what reparations mean inyour own life and community.
Let's talk about what landreturn right Looks like it means
in your own experience.
So it's not just to keep theseabstract but to really struggle

(16:09):
through and come up with whatthat must mean going forward.
And I'll just say, like, mysense is that it is so
relational because, you know,Robin Wall-Kimmer has this idea
that if we listen to the storiesof the land and restory,
restoration, restory with theland, that that holds the key to
what the land needs to healright.
And in an era of climate changeand with so much environmental

(16:31):
degradation, this idea that wecan actually learn how to heal
ourselves.
On another relationship withland, heal land through that
process.
So that's what I find likereally, because it's not just to
be this overwhelming impossiblething, it's like, wow, how
generative and the potential andhope of that feels like such a
source of.

(16:52):
It's not just potential, it'slike a source of liberation.

Leena Akhtar (16:56):
Oh, thank you G.

Jabari Carmichael (16:58):
I'm convinced that nothing just happens.
And when I think about thatreality, I imagine my teenage,
middle school self and the wordsfrom my mother saying never to
sail the land, and it makes mewonder what was so necessary

(17:20):
that she drilled that into me.
I must explore what has beenthe history of our people, as in
our family and black folks andsoutherners and southern black
folk.
What made it so important thatI know that Like in my bones, I
know that, so I grew up withthat being just like drilled

(17:42):
into me and learning morestories about the land where I
grew up than our communityhaving been where it is for so
long.
The cornerstone of our churchsays it was founded seven years
after the emancipation ofenslaved people.
And what's important there tome?

(18:05):
I'm like okay, like that's areality and I'm aware that we've
been gathering since before itwas in black and white or on
paper, and so to understand it,to understand that history of
place and the people andrelationship amongst people and
relationship of people to theplace and the grass and the

(18:27):
trees and the birds, just allthat exists there.
Like that's what my mother wassaying, like this is what's
important that you hang on to.
They ain't making no more land,as she would say, and so we
could buy a new house.
You could build a new house,but there's no more land being
produced, and so I got thatreally clearly.

(18:48):
And then that makes me think,now that I have this tool kit
and this presence of visions,like how does the layer become
the foundation of how it is werelate?
I think it's really clear inmany statistics that being
outside and spending time in thesun is a part of not just our

(19:10):
physical health.
It's also like it helps ourmental health as well, and so
being able to share spaceoutside in tandem with the
vision's model, there's somethings we can't teach in a
classroom.
In a formal classroom, thereare gonna be things that happen

(19:30):
outside that is unpredictableand that's a part of the
learning.
Like life itself isunpredictable, and I feel like
what I've come to understand isthat in a classroom, we can
structure so much to try toteach and create for people to
engage outside of the classroom.
So we're saying this let's juststart the classroom outside,

(19:51):
like not teach people in theroom to prepare for outside.
Let's be outside and share withone another.
So this piece about visionsreally focuses on process and
content and thinking about thetools that we're sharing and how
it is we are together.

(20:12):
I'm excited to see what's gonnacome.
I really am.
I mean as much as we can prepand plan, jeannie, like some
part of this is beyond ourcontrol, and that is what I'm
excited about.

Jeanne Firth (20:25):
Absolutely.
Yeah, jabari.
There's something that you saidthat I wanted to touch on too,
like just this idea that I thinkboth of us, working in outdoor
education and also beingoutdoors adventure people
ourselves I know that I've hadthe experience of being at so
many camps, trainings literallylike how do you do skills, like

(20:46):
outdoor skills, in which I wishthis conversation about
oppression was present.
I just wish that there was alens around the importance of
having these conversations withunderstanding that power
dynamics are present, because sooften I've been in those spaces
and you know, traditionallythey've been overwhelmingly
white, often privileged, andthen when there is difference

(21:07):
presence around race or class,that the people holding the
space are facilitating orleading the training like don't
really know what to do.
So I think that, thinking aboutanybody who's working in
leadership development, outdooreducation, outdoor skills camps,
like all of it that,particularly if y'all are in
those roles, like please comeand let us support you, because

(21:30):
this is something that we'vebeen developing through all of
our work with young people andadults.
But I knew that I felt like sooften those conversations just
need more support, right, likepeople that are facilitating
those kind of experiences needsupport.
So I'm really hoping that wecan offer that to anyone who's
interested.

Leena Akhtar (21:49):
Before we get to the specifics of people can
expect at Foxfire, two quickthings.
Jabari, we have talked aboutthis before and I would love it
if you would, to the extent thatyou're willing, just give a
little bit of context aboutwhere in Mississippi you grew up
, because this is taking placeat Foxfire, which is not exactly
where you're from, and ittouches on a lot of themes that,

(22:10):
as I understand it, resonatefor you and you're growing up in
life experience and your familyhistory as well.

Jabari Carmichael (22:16):
Thank you.
So I'm from a little town inCentral Mississippi called
Canton, and Canton is about two,two and a half hours from
Waterford, where Foxfire ranchesat Population of about 11,000
people, with black folks beingin the majority.
Mississippi is the blackeststate in the union and Canton is

(22:39):
majority of blacks, so I grewup in a place where the mayor
was a black woman.
When I was a child, my teacherswere overwhelmingly black,
maybe even 95 to 5% or 90% black, and many of my teachers
graduated with my mom or myaunties and uncles.

(23:02):
My mother and I had the samelibrarian, so thinking about
community and relationship.
Needless to say, in a smalltown there's a lot that can be
known about individuals and Ifelt really cared for.
I was nurtured by who and what Isaw and the positions of power

(23:24):
that I saw, people who lookedlike me, and so I very much
shaped my sense of self and Igrew up outside of the city, in
the country, surrounded byfamily, aunties and uncles and
cousins, so very much was avillage and I didn't appreciate
that much when I was a kid andnow, as I've gotten older, I'm

(23:46):
like, wow, like not many peoplehave access to that.
I have friends growing up thatwere not family, and it wasn't
until I went to college that Iwas able to develop and build
these relationships.
It's kind of difficult toexplain what you share the

(24:07):
experience of what it means togrow up in this manner and when
I'm sometimes sharing with myfriends I did this program at
AmeriCorps and sharing with them, it was almost as if I grew up
in a totally differentgeneration.
From my proximity to family andthis way.
So yeah, that's cancerous.

Leena Akhtar (24:30):
As you were speaking, it struck me that your
mom teaching you not ever tosell the land it brought to mind
what Annette, whose family ownsFoxfire Ranch, has said about
being Black Sovereignty space.
So I'd love to hear you alltalk a little bit about Foxfire
Ranch, where you are now.
You're envisioning for thispace in the outdoors, in nature.

(24:54):
What people can expect Maybe wecan start with is a little bit
about what the pace workshop isfor people who are completely
unfamiliar with visions, who weare, what we do, and then a
little bit about thesignificance of doing it where
you are now.

Jeanne Firth (25:14):
So pace stands for it's P-A-C-E and it's personal
approach to change and equityand it is really a foundational
exposure to the core visiontoolkit.
We could call it curriculum.
I really like talking about itas tools, practical tools that
you can apply to change at thepersonal, interpersonal,

(25:37):
systemic and institutional andcultural levels.
So we're thinking about makingchange in all those dimensions
and how to equip people to dothat.
I like that we really root inthe personal.
So somebody asked me recentlyI've done a ton of racial
justice work.
Is this like a pretty basic?
They were like I'm not tryingto give myself too many props,
but I've been in this work along time.

(25:57):
I've had this when we havepeople in a pace training that
are in their 70s or 80s and theyhave literally been in
struggles for their entire liveswe hear from them, is the
importance of this approach thatreally starts at the personal.
That is an onion that we peelour entire lives.
For example, I'll suddenlyrealize I just haven't done much

(26:21):
peeling of the onion around myexperience of somebody who has
dyslexia.
How has that shaped my life?
What messages did I get?
What was caught and taughtabout people that were
neurodiverse?
We didn't even have that wordwhen I was I'm not that old and
even as a kid there wasn'tcommon knowledge around
neurodiversity.
What messaging was I receiving?

(26:44):
That's a whole new realm.
All of a sudden it's like, wow,that's a part of my personal
lens, it's not just my story,it's literally my lens of how I
understand the world.
It's how I make meaning andmake sense of it.
It is where unconscious biaslives.
It's where, internalized, myidea is that, oh, I'm less than
have lived all of that In thisway, understanding how we make

(27:07):
meaning and understand ourselves.
To Barry, even when we startedtoday, you named this idea of
like, who am I?
That is a big question, right.
This idea is of who am I?
How am I named, how do I wantto be named?
That's a whole other realm, andso pace is a way to spend four
days engaging with thosequestions at the personal and
organizational levels, and so wereally want this to come back

(27:29):
into your world, right?
So if you are a church pastor,if you own a business, if you
are a person who does grassrootsstruggles for organizing, like
whatever, whoever you are, ifyou're a retired person, right,
if you're a teenager in highschool, this idea that we come
together, understand ourselves alittle bit better in one
another and then have all ofthese tools to continue pushing

(27:52):
for change in our own context.
And I think that's a cool thingabout a training like this, too
, is that we are.
You know, we're intentionallytrying to bring people across.
You know different identitiesand lives, but also like
different industries, like kindof change we need in the world
needs us to be in every space,doing work in every level, and
so we want that breadth ofexperience and breadth of

(28:14):
organizations represented, socome.

Leena Akhtar (28:17):
Beautiful.
So my first exposure to a pacewas back in the before times,
when we were traveling to dothem, and it happened in the
auditorium of a school.
And since the pandemic, we'vepretty successfully I think very
successfully actually adaptedthem to being online.
So tell me a little bit aboutthis venue where you're both at

(28:38):
right now it is November 27th,the weekend or the week, the
Monday after Thanksgiving in2023.
Tell me a little bit aboutwhere you are, what participants
can expect and what thesignificance to you doing this
work in that venue is.

Jabari Carmichael (28:55):
Cool.
So what I do is I'll just takeyou on a little ride with us,
which is we Neanderth throughthe windy roads North
Mississippi, down Highway 7,away from Highway 55, around a
couple of roundabouts and pastthe river, and then we're

(29:15):
greeted by a large sign sayingFox Fire Ranch.
This way we now have Highway 7for a few more minutes and then
we are greeted by horses anothersign saying welcome to Fox Fire
Ranch.
And as we enter the drivewaythere's a large brick house, red

(29:39):
brick house, and this is thefamily house, and that's where
I'm sitting right now, takingthis call.
And we continue on down thehill, so to say, to the pavilion
, and this is an open airpavilion houses, a kitchen

(30:00):
houses, a meeting room, and fromthere you can see multiple
cabins, you can hear the birdsand other wildlife here in
Mississippi, you can see thestars.
This is the physical space ofFox Fire Ranch.
It's just a piece of who it is,that they are the people that

(30:20):
inhabit and create this spacelike.
That's what's special andthat's what brings the meaning
to Fox Fire Ranch.
If you're fortunate enough toenter the family house, you will
notice a lot of picturesPictures of family, pictures of
friends, and the immediate imagethat's sticking with me now is

(30:43):
there's, I guess, a plaque thatwas awarded to Annette's parents
from their larger family thatsays thanks for creating a place
for people to gather.
Now I want to anchor there asBlack folks in the South of
having a place to call their ownat any point in time, including

(31:04):
today and especially for morethan a century.
That's saying a lot.
That cost, you know, and I justI don't just mean financially,
right, but it cost.
And so that is the space thatwe're entering and the space
that we're inviting you asParticipants to, to imbibe in,

(31:28):
to be overwhelmed by, to beimmersed in, and there's just,
there's just no replacing that.
You know we, we can't bottlethat up and send it home with
you.
I can't even articulate in away that is palatable where you
would get it, even in thispodcast.
It's, it's an experience thathas to be had.

(31:51):
Then you talk about, you'reright.
So, given you haven't had theexperience yet is difficult to
to share in the experience, andI will name that.
This is a gathering place ofmany different types of people
and, for Jenny, I appreciate younaming who it is that we're
inviting to this space.
I think that if you are curiousabout knowing more about

(32:17):
yourself, about other people, becurious to know more about
Mississippi and the setting thatwe'll be at.
And music Sorrentia is a musicvenue really Highlighting Hill
Country Blues, which was formedhere in Mississippi.
We Mississippi, our statesmodel is with a birthplace of

(32:38):
America's music and I think wecould expand beyond that because
so much of what's been createdhere in Mississippi and then you
know, via music, has gonebeyond the borders we call the
United States.
So that's a little bit aboutFox Fire Ranch and where it is
that we are and the type ofspace that we're creating with

(32:58):
pace, connect, connect, rightConnect like that is what we're
hoping people To do in the spacethat we created and that is
that is a specialty of Fox FireRanch.

Jeanne Firth (33:08):
I Will say that, even in my experience of being
here, I feel so honored to behere and to be With the
community that this family, thehollow wall family, has built.
I slept better last night thanI have slept in months.
Y'all, there is something Toall that you're saying to barry

(33:32):
about being in place.

Leena Akhtar (33:35):
Something in our bodies is different, so Jeannie,
this is your first visit there,right?

Jeanne Firth (33:40):
I've wanted to come for years, and so it feels
almost like a Pilgrimage rightof the heart.
Yeah beautiful.

Leena Akhtar (33:48):
You mentioned that Fox Fire Ranch is a venue where
they're keeping the traditionof Hill Country Blues music
going.
As I understand it, there was aconcert last night.

Jabari Carmichael (34:00):
There was.
There was.
Well, let me tell y'all, it wascold in Mississippi last night
and people came out to enjoy theblues.
I think culturally there's amisunderstanding, like when the
weather is bad, people don'ttravel, like, whether that be
like, people don't drive in therain, you know if it's cold or
you know really cold and justinclement.

(34:21):
People are not out, and peoplechose to overcome that and Come
out and party and celebrate.

Jeanne Firth (34:28):
People were there for their birthday last night,
right, I mean there was yes.
There was like just just the,the people that are drawn here,
whether it was the extendedhollow wall family, an elderly
man celebrating his birthday whowas so excited to have this
amazing band playing.
Young people there were severalpeople there on dates, young
people on dates.
Like I just Felt that everybodyhad relationship to this place,

(34:49):
somehow, like they are making ajourney back or they hadn't
been in a year and they've beenmissing it and this was the last
one of the season, so theyreally wanted to be here for the
show.
But that sense of supportingeach other and just having a
good time if the food is amazingand Food's gonna be provided
throughout this whole time toget together, just like to have
to eat and drink and be joyfultogether and I just just to say

(35:12):
that both the sense that the,the ranch, really emphasizes of
connection and rest and joy, allas Necessary right that that
that these are the ways in whichwe build new worlds Are through
that, and that rest is part ofit and kicking up your heels as
part of it.

Jabari Carmichael (35:30):
I was just tonight.
Last night, keith Johnson in abig muddy band play and keep
Johnson is the great nephew ofmuddy waters.
That's, that's what we had lastnight.
It was a great show.
It was a great show.

Leena Akhtar (35:43):
So that gets me to my final question, or the big
question.
Pace connected Fox fire ranjust happening in March 2024,
from the 15th to the 19th.
So March 15th to March 19th,what can people expect over the
course of the several nightsthat they're gonna be there?

Jabari Carmichael (36:02):
What can people expect?
People can expect to be caredfor.
People can expect to have anexperience of a lifetime.
People can expect to spend alot of time in nature, one
another, and while this is apace training model off of you
know the pace training thatvision leads for organizations

(36:24):
and individuals from around theworld, the fusion of being
outside in nature adds adifferent element.
So a typical day for a pace islike 8 to 330.
That's going to look differentgiven the setting that we have
here.
So the agenda is going to lookdifferent.
How we spend time we're going tohave a bonfire.

(36:45):
We don't have that capacity todo that in the normal pace
training.
We're going to go on a largecanoe ride at one of the lakes
nearby.
We don't have the capacity todo that in a typical training.
So people can expect to have anexperience that they learn from
, not just learning that leadsto an experience.

(37:06):
That's what I'm excited aboutto engage, to invite people to
question and to think.
Even things that they've heldis like true, that they live
their life by.
It's just to invite people toquestion.

Leena Akhtar (37:18):
So folks are going to arrive, there's going to be
that full pace curriculum andthen there's going to be a
number of activities.
So, as I understand it, thethings that you've mentioned are
canoeing, there's hiking.
I know that it's happening overa weekend.
So there is going to be aSunday Blues concert.
We talked about I think it wasan African dance class.

Jabari Carmichael (37:40):
Horsespec variety.
Folks are interested in thatStargazing.
We're going to have some timeto spend outside and just
literally stare at the sky.
What else, Jeannie?

Jeanne Firth (37:51):
I was just thinking that for any
naturalists, both for birdingand plant identification
Jabari's been doing a lot ofwork just to learn that.
Look plants here and trees Isaw so much to forage yesterday
so I know that's something I'mreally interested in is maybe
helping bring some plantmedicine and also just herbs
into whatever we're eating, ifpeople are interested, right.

(38:13):
So there's a lot to explore onthe land.
And I would say too, if any ofthese things, if you're like oh,
I'm not somebody who wants tolike go on a hike, or if I'm not
somebody who has ever been on ahorse, y'all try on.
Is one of our key guidelines.
And just you decide, right.
Like, come be here with us andas much as you feel like you can

(38:33):
trust the experience, go for it.
And as much as you know yourself, right, and you're like I have
different mobility, we will meetyou right where you're at the
goal is really considerate ofpeople's accessibility and
desires, so just let us knowlike we're really happy to be in
conversation about you gettingwhat you need in physical sense

(38:53):
and body nourishment, etc.
Beautiful.

Leena Akhtar (38:56):
So I understand that the accommodation
arrangements are challenged bychoice as well.

Jabari Carmichael (39:01):
Yes, there is the camping.

Leena Akhtar (39:04):
So there's the camping option, which is pretty
much just priced into theworkshop right.
The camping accommodation isfree if people want to just camp
on the land.
There is also the option of thetrue Hilton in is it Oxford,
which we have a block roomarrangement with.
So people who want to come backand forth from the hotel

(39:28):
morning and evenings have thatoption.
And then, as I understand it,am I correct that if there is a
group that would like to share acabin, they can also do that
through private arrangement withFox Fire?
There's some really big cabins.

Jeanne Firth (39:40):
I visited them all yesterday.
So those are, on option two,quite a few different ones and
with different sizing.
You know a group of four, agroup of eight, so there's
options.

Leena Akhtar (39:49):
Fantastic, okay, great Great.
We'll put information aboutthat in the show notes and you
know, if people have questions,we'll also put an email address
where people can Ask JeannieJabari.
Thank you so much for gettingon the internet at seven o'clock
in the morning where you are,and talking to me about this.
It's always wonderful to talkto the two of you and I love how

(40:11):
passionate you are and I justlove the things you two come up
with in your collaborationstogether.
Is there anything else that youwant to share about Fox Fire,
your work, visions, just what'son your hearts and minds right
now, before we log off, I thinkwhat I would say is I've really
been exploring this idea ofbeing a facilitant.

Jeanne Firth (40:32):
So just as much as I'm a facilitator, I'm also a
participant, and that is so trueto my own experience, because I
just constantly feel like I'mlearning and being transformed
by this, the people that I meetreally in this work, and so I
wouldn't write that spirit tofor anyone coming to this.
This is co-creating, right, likewe have the visions curriculum,
we have the tools that we'regoing to share and, jabbar, you

(40:57):
named this like sort of magic oflet's see what happens.
And that is the fact that youknow what we do will only exist
because of the unique gifts andexperiences of each person who
shows up to do this together.
And in that way it is reallypowerful to me to think about
the potential of what we cancreate, even in four days.

(41:18):
Well, I guess this is five,right.
Five days, five days together,that is both a short period of
time and a lifetime.
What if we really allowourselves to imagine that true
transformation can happen inthat period?
So, just to invite that spiritof the potential of what can
really happen when we cometogether and believe in a new

(41:41):
future, what's possible, thankyou Jane.

Jabari Carmichael (41:46):
The answer is yes.
This is an opportunity for you.
If you're wondering, as youlisten to this, if you have the
time, if you can sacrifice yourto do list and the other things
going on in your life, theanswer is yes.
Like the time is now, this isan opportunity to say yes to and
that your investment of yourtime and your resources, you

(42:11):
will receive exponentially moreby being present and by being
participating.
So one to no more, and you know, now is enough time to plan
your sitters, your schedulesaround this experience that
we're inviting you to.
You'll not be let down,beautiful.

Leena Akhtar (42:31):
All right, so I'm going to drop registration
information in workshop.
Registration includes thetuition, the activities, the
food for all the time thatpeople are there, and people can
again, you know, pick their ownaccommodation.
Jeanie Jabari, thank you somuch.
Thank you both.
It is always wonderful to be incommunity with you.
I appreciate and have so muchrespect for both of you and the

(42:54):
work that you do, and I can'twait for this thing to roll out
and be offered to the world.

Jeanne Firth (43:01):
Same to you, Lena.
What a pleasure to be inrelationship with your
brilliance.
It's really amazing.

Jabari Carmichael (43:07):
Yeah, thanks for all your support helping
launch this and get us off theground, yes, and Stella, who's
not here, and all the otherhands who've been a part of this
process, and to our friends,yeah, who helped us like craft
this over many, many years.
Thank you, beautiful.

Leena Akhtar (43:24):
Thank you so much.
Next, I'm happy to introduceAnnette Hollowell, who I caught
up with separately when wearranged to host the event at
Foxfire.
Welcome to Annette.
So, annette, my understandingis that your family owns this
land.

Anette Hollowell (43:40):
Yes, so Foxfire is located in Waterford,
mississippi, which is in thefoothills of the Appalachian
Trace, the North MississippiHill Country, and this is land
that's been with my family forover 100 years now.
Just to give a little historyin 1918, my grandfather, albert
Hollowell, filed his writtenintention to purchase these 80
acres of land and in 1919, hepurchased it.

(44:00):
He was a woodworker and afarmer and kind of a country
veterinarian, and by the time hemarried my grandmother, who was
about 20 years younger than him, she was the real farmer and
everything.
So they had all of theirchildren, my father and his five
siblings, out there on thatland via midwife and they lived
out there and they greweverything that the family ate
and needed and existed asfarmers Until he passed and my

(44:24):
father was about nine years old,and then after a couple of
years my grandmother remarried,moved into neighboring town with
another farmer and this landbasically lay free for about 15
years.
In the 90s my father and mymother decided to buy out shares
that my aunts and uncles had inthe property and to return home
.
My dad had a long career in themilitary and so in 2000, they

(44:47):
returned home and they slowlystarted to reclaim areas on the
property.
So, you know, put in a road andbuild a small cabin and over
time build the infrastructure.
That's what we call FoxfireRanch now.
So we really got our start byrooting down in our Hill Country
culture, which is our musicalculture.
It's a particular genre ofblues that comes from our area

(45:07):
called the North MississippiHill Country Blues.
Hill Country just won its firstGrammy award this past year
with Cedric Burnside, which isexciting for all of us.
And rooting down in ourfoodways.
And so the area that we're fromwas known for these Hill
Country Blues, juke joints,things like that.
And as we started to build upthe infrastructure there, we
were hosting our own familyreunions.

(45:28):
We created a basic pavilionstructure for that, and then it
was like, what do we do next?
And so we decided to return tothat tradition of Sunday evening
blues from our area and openedup the property to the community
to come out and haveopportunity to hear some good
blues music, bring the family,eat a good meal and just have
that kind of fellowship.
And that's what really got usstarted.

(45:48):
And so it's been 15 years.
We started off by hosting SundayBlues concerts for a decade
every Sunday from March toThanksgiving.
The last five years we'vestarted to slow that up some and
do it second and fourth Sundaysbecause we've grown as a
gathering place for community.
So we host a lot of kinsi-yeras,family reunions, weddings and
festivals, a lot of differentprivate events and increasingly

(46:11):
we've been focusing on hostingmore retreats.
So part of my commitment andfocus on the land is thinking
about the next 100 years and howwe make this a space that's
available for community, forrest, deep learning, connection,
celebration and healing, and soreally excited to have visions
out there because it feels likeany subject, any kind of content

(46:32):
that you want people to sitwith.
It integrates even deeper whenyou're out on the land, you know
.
And so there's a part of itthat's facilitation and then
there's, like I'd say, probably60, 70% of it that's just the
invitation for people to slowdown, to reset their pace and
connect with that red clay dirtout there and the tall trees and

(46:53):
the wide open skies andwhatever the lesson, the work
the focus is for a group thatneeds to happen Usually is
accelerated by that.

Leena Akhtar (47:01):
So Beautiful.
Well, I'm super excited.
I know that we're scheduling itso that people can definitely
attend one of those blues nights, right.

Anette Hollowell (47:12):
We'll pick a good show for you guys.
I love it.

Leena Akhtar (47:16):
If you're curious to learn more about Pace Connect
, jeanne Jibari and Annette areholding a live information
session on December 13th at 6.30PM Eastern Time.
It will be recorded, so pleaseregister to receive the
recording.
If you're interested and can'tmake it.
If you're listening to thisafter that date, you can email
programs at visions-incorg.
I've dropped that email as wellas links to everything we

(47:37):
talked about in this episode andmore in the show notes.
Next year will be Vision's 40thyear of existence.
In honor of this, we'll befeaturing stories from elders in
the Vision's community inupcoming episodes, so please
look out for that.
Thank you so much for listening.
Until next time.