May 7, 2024 • 50 mins
Join us as we sit down with Vincent Johnson, as he recounts his trajectory from being a 'third culture kid' to becoming the Director of Equity and Inclusive Excellence at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. Growing up as the child of a serviceman who was stationed in Okinawa and Taiwan, as well as Washington, DC, Vincent's immersion in different cultures before attending Harvard University shaped his outlook and his approach to his work as a consultant and board member with VISIONS.
Vincent recounts the major milestones in his life, including how an afro sparked a memorable Harvard application essay and the ways in which his varied experiences shaped his commitment to creating inclusive spaces at the law school. His story is not just one of personal success; it's a model for how learning to embrace our differences can lead to a more empathetic and just society.
VISIONS 40th Anniversary Event is coming up on September 27, 2024! Please join us in Boston to celebrate if you can!
New to VISIONS and want to learn what we're about? Our pay-what-you-can Guidelines for Effective Cross-Cultural Dialogue workshop happens on the last Wednesday of every month at 4pm ET. All are welcome. Come join us!
See what's coming up at VISIONS!
About us
Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.
Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.
VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.
Any opinions and views expressed by the speakers are their own and do not reflect the positions of VISIONS, Inc.
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Music credit: Tim Hall @tv_hall
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (00:01):
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with Visions Inc.
Welcome.
It is my pleasure today tobring you another in our series
of elder stories, this time withlongtime Visions consultant,
(00:23):
former staff member and currentboard member, Vincent Johnson.
Vincent and I talk about how hegrew up in several places as
the child of a serviceman andhow this shaped his outlook, and
about being the first in hisfamily to go to college and
getting into Harvard and how heended up in the Visions orbit.
He currently serves as theDirector of Equity and Inclusive
(00:43):
Excellence at the University ofPittsburgh School of Law.
One of the things I appreciatemost about doing these
interviews is that I learn newthings about people who I've
been in community with for years.
Vincent and I discovered thatwe'd both done a lot of growing
up abroad, albeit in verydifferent places.
It was a pleasure to talk tohim about how having that
experience as a third culturekid during his formative years
(01:06):
influenced his trajectory andhow he shows up in the work much
as it did with me.
Hi, everyone, welcome.
I'm really excited to be herewith Vincent Johnson, one of our
Vision's elders.
You've been a consultant,you've been a staff member.
You're currently a board member.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today.
Vincent Johnson (01:26):
Glad to be here , Leena, absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (01:29):
Vincent, will you introduce yourself to people
who are listening, who may notknow you?
Vincent Johnson (01:33):
Sure, I'm Vincent Johnson my pronouns are
he, him, his.
Coming to you from the landthat used to be inhabited by the
Adina and Monongahela people,it's now commonly called
Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, and Iwork in terms of full-time work
at the University of PittsburghSchool of Law in the role of
(01:56):
Director of Equity and InclusiveExcellence.
In addition, I'm doing mypart-time consulting with
Visions Incorporated.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (02:05):
Beautiful, thank you.
So we talked a little bitbefore we did this recording,
and you didn't grow up inPittsburgh.
Vincent Johnson (02:15):
That is correct .
I had what I consider to be areally interesting kind of
growing up experience.
Both of my parents are fromMississippi and in fact they
were born and raised inTallahatchie County where Emmett
Till was killed, and it waspretty common knowledge among
(02:36):
both of my parents' siblings, myaunts and uncles around who did
it, who did the heinous crime,and it was no big secret.
I actually am the son ofsomeone who was in the US Armed
Services.
My dad worked for the US AirForce in the Office of Special
(02:59):
Investigations and we did alittle bit of moving around
investigations and we did alittle bit of moving around.
My mom was a housewife until Iwent to college, so I knew her
as the kind of traditional wifeand mother from the like 1960s
kind of classic family makeup.
I was born in Topeka, kansas,and my father was stationed at
(03:24):
Forbes Air Force Base and thenwe moved to Omaha, nebraska,
where I was until I was sixyears old.
In fact I have a vivid memorywhen I was six John F Kennedy
was killed and I can rememberthe teachers being really upset
around what was going on andadults were crying and it was a
(03:44):
real jolt just having that kindof consciousness in my mind.
And then, when I turned seven,our family had the opportunity
to be with my dad in what wecalled an overseas assignment in
Okinawa, which is now a part ofJapan.
So we lived in Kadena, okinawa,from 64 to 66.
(04:09):
So I was like seven to nineyears old and those were very
formative years for me.
I was in the second and thirdgrades and what I can remember
is that my school experiencethere was really diverse.
There were lots of Asianstudents in the class because
(04:32):
the children of ambassadors,children of foreign service
people who were local to Okinawa, were at the school.
Air Force, army, navy, marinekids, we were at the school.
And then there were civilianswhose corporations had their
families there.
(04:52):
Their kids were at the school.
And so what I thought wasreally great that my dad did,
instead of living on base welived in the community of Kadena
.
So we lived among localJapanese people and I could just
remember the kind ofintegration and being around a
(05:14):
lot of Japanese people andseeing the difference between me
and those who were, you know,local to Okinawa.
And then we moved back, or movedto for the first time,
washington DC in 1966.
I was nine years old and westayed there for a few years
(05:36):
until 1971, when we had anotheropportunity to be in Asia.
My dad got an assignment inTaiwan, so we lived in a suburb
of Taipei called Tianmu andagain my dad made the similar
decision to live among theChinese in Taipei, taiwan.
(05:57):
And so I went to TaipeiAmerican School for my freshman
and sophomore years of highschool and again, similar makeup
of the student body populationand then came back to the DC
public schools where it waspretty much an all Black
experience.
So when I was in DC we lived inSoutheast DC it's pretty much a
(06:22):
poor working class environmentand the schools were pretty much
all black.
So what I can fondly hold on tois that I had really great
nurturing teachers that reallypushed me who were black and the
you know student body werestudents from the neighborhood.
(06:44):
And again, it was an interestingtime to grow up as a nerd.
People really referred to me asa nerd.
I was a voracious reader,really good at school, made good
school grades, and as I reflecton how I was treated back then,
I'm really intrigued that Iwasn't really bullied, you know,
(07:05):
people just said that that guyis, you know, a real bookworm.
In fact I earned the nicknameof Peabody from the Sherman and
Peabody part of the Bullwinklecartoon.
If you've ever seen theBullwinkle franchise there's a
little dog named Peabody andbecause I've always worn glasses
(07:25):
, they gave me the nicknamePeabody to denote my nerdiness.
So I embraced that and it keptme from, I think, being picked
on.
I just went with it.
I remembered some high schoolreunions where somebody came up
to me and said oh, I rememberedthat you let me look at your
(07:47):
paper and I got good answers andgood grades as a part of that.
So I'd say all that to say thatI was exposed to difference
early on.
I was raised in a really kindof Southern heritage household
and my growing up experience wasanchored by living in working
(08:09):
class Southeast Washington DC.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:13):
So when we talked before we did this
recording, that was the firsttime I knew that you had had
that international third culturekid experience.
Sure enough, and that's verysimilar to how I grew up.
My father wasn't military and Idid grow up mostly attending
(08:33):
international schools, americanschools, in these kinds of
surprisingly diverse so-calledexpat communities.
Seven to nine in well, okay.
So first, the first movie thatyou remember was that to
Nebraska.
Vincent Johnson (08:47):
I remember bits and pieces of Nebraska and
again it's anchored in thatstrong remembrance of when
Kennedy was killed, becausethose were really upset and I
knew something was wrong and itwas funny.
The other thing I rememberabout Omaha is that we lived in
the projects.
So I remember living in, youknow, federal housing projects,
(09:08):
as they are called today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:10):
What do you recall about that?
Like I'm just curious, I mean,I know that sounds very that age
.
Vincent Johnson (09:15):
Kind of we've.
We lived in a string ofconnected units and there were
entryways and there wereentryways.
(09:50):
Not I remember our address, andmy address was 2959 Burdette
Street in Omaha.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:55):
Nebraska.
It's funny the things that thatone remembers yeah right, I was
probably taught to remember myaddress.
Vincent Johnson (10:02):
it's still emblazoned here today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (10:04):
Yeah, you know , as you were speaking, it
brought to mind one of thecultural learning questions that
we ask sometimes when we do ourtrainings, and that is when did
you first become aware thatyour upbringing was different
than other people's, and how?
So when you were talking aboutliving in Okinawa among, you
(10:25):
know, local folks, I'm curiousto know what that experience was
like for you.
You said seven to nine, right.
Vincent Johnson (10:32):
Yeah, I was seven to nine years old, so that
was second and third grade Ispent over there.
Yeah, I just remember hearingdifferent languages, being
curious about the differentcharacteristics of how people
looked.
As a Black person in my class,I was the only Black boy in both
(11:07):
classes and there was one Blackgirl in the second and third
grade and the two girls weredifferent, so it wasn't the same
girl and there were a lot ofAsian students in both of the
pictures and a lot of whitestudents, both of the pictures
and a lot of white students.
(11:28):
And so I say that to say Iremembered both the feeling of
being a pretty big minority overthere and then when going to DC
, certainly a richness of an allblack environment there.
So it was quite a contrast.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (11:41):
Yeah, I can imagine.
I can imagine.
And then I'm asking thisbecause, you may know, I grew up
in Riyadh in the 80s and thatwas during a time when the Gulf
region was pulling in peoplefrom I mean, they were pulling
their skilled labor basicallyfrom all over the world.
And so I had the experience ofgrowing up in an environment
(12:05):
with the children of people whowere intrepid and ambitious
enough to come and live in Saudi, of all places, before they
progressively reformed by theirstandards in the last 10, 15
years, and that really gave me aparticular lens on what is
possible, including what ispossible in our work, right,
(12:27):
because the kids had notabsorbed the prejudices and
preconceived notions of theirparents.
And so we grew up together andwe got along in ways that I mean
I noticed that our parents likefiltered out by and hung out
with, you know, people who werevery similar to them.
So I'm curious what youobserved, either in China and or
(12:49):
in Japan, about that, and thenalso like how that contrasted or
didn't with what you saw in DC.
Vincent Johnson (12:57):
Essentially, that's an interesting question
for me.
I know when I went to Taiwan Iwas there for my freshman and
sophomore years of high school.
So the year before we went toTaiwan I was an eighth grader in
junior high in DC and again Iwas pretty much held up by my
(13:18):
peers as a smart kid, someonewho was going places.
I was really involved in a lotof club activities and
organizations at my junior highschool and when I got to Taiwan
I can remember, especially bylooking at yearbooks, that I was
voted class friendliest myfreshman year.
(13:43):
You know how they had thesuperlatives for each of the
years.
So I've always been, I think,pretty extroverted and I think I
attribute being extroverted tothose immersions in different
environments and my curiosityabout the immersion and I will
give myself a stroke aroundbeing able to be voted sophomore
(14:06):
class president.
So after being there for thefreshman year, I was class
president for the sophomore yearand, again looking at yearbooks
, I was involved in a lot ofactivities and I think, was able
to forge relationships, mix andmingle, kind of go and
integrate with different groupsof students.
(14:28):
I found that I was really goodat cross-country when I was at
Taipei American School in Taiwanand I was actually one of the
best runners.
I was really pencil thin, ifyou can believe this.
I weighed like 120 pounds.
So I was like Forrest Gump.
I could run effortlessly andrun for a long way, ran a couple
(14:50):
of marathons and so I was atriple threat in Taiwan.
I was good in the books, classleader and also good in cross
country and track.
So I kind of developed someother skills while I was over
there and that did me well whenI came back to Southeast DC for
(15:10):
my junior and senior years andit really helped me to round out
my skills and talents such thatI could be accepted into
Harvard.
I clearly believe I was abeneficiary of affirmative
action.
I'm the first person to go tocollege in my family and I was
(15:31):
fortunate enough to be invitedto matriculate into the Harvard
class of 1979.
And having, I think, anindependent school experience
and teachings helped me toreally do well on the SAT.
So I scored really well interms of SAT.
My grades were stellar both inthe Taipei American School and
(15:54):
in my high school in SoutheastDC and I can imagine that that
portfolio probably did look goodto Harvard, in that I had
demonstrated that I hadsuccessfully navigated an
independent school experience aswell as a public school
experience and I can rememberwriting my essay to get into
(16:15):
Harvard around how I was viewedby some Chinese people, chinese
people in Taiwan Back then.
I had a really big afro and Ican remember being at the local
bus stop waiting to take the bus, like into the shopping
district, because we lived inTianmu, a suburb of Taipei, and
(16:38):
Chinese people would point at orlaugh at or come over and
actually touch my hair and so Ihad, I think, like a couple of
page essay around what it waslike to be the other in an Asian
community and how that felt tome.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (16:57):
Do you still have the essay and or photos
from that period?
I definitely have photos.
Vincent Johnson (17:02):
I don't have that essay, but I've got all
kinds of photos for sure.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:07):
That's interesting.
I put in the chat a.
(17:41):
I think I found Peabody.
Vincent Johnson (17:45):
Oh yeah, that's him.
That was my nickname, Peabody.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:48):
Yes, fantastic .
Vincent Johnson (17:49):
I love it, absolutely Love it so class of
79.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:56):
So you started at Harvard in 75.
Vincent Johnson (17:59):
Correct and in fact going for my 45th college
reunion in May, so about sixweeks away from me, and I'm
looking forward to that.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (18:10):
Great, I'm very curious to hear how that
experience was for you.
Vincent Johnson (18:15):
You know what?
I was really overwhelmed atfirst.
Again, I was really kind ofsurprised.
I got in, even though I appliedto like I think, nine schools
and I got into eight.
I didn't get into MIT, for somereason.
I applied to MIT and I was onthe ITS academic team at my high
(18:37):
school.
I went to Ballou Senior HighSchool in DC and our ITS
academic teacher was what Iwould call, maybe today, a Teach
for America teacher.
She was fairly young.
She was a white woman fromFlorida who was also first
generation to go to college andshe went to Princeton and she
encouraged myself and the twoother it's Academic team
(19:02):
students to shoot for the stars.
So the three of us applied toHarvard, yale, princeton, I
added Dartmouth and I got intoall those schools and she
actually took us to the campusesHarvard, yale and Princeton.
And so when I got to Harvard, Iknew this is where I wanted to
be.
I was really enamored withCambridge and it just felt right
(19:26):
.
I could see myself there.
Plus, back in 75, you knowHarvard was the H-bomb.
You say Harvard and it washighly valued.
In fact, one of the things Irecall is that when I got the
big envelope, meaning that I wasadmitted into Harvard.
It was one of the few timesI've ever seen my mother cry.
(19:47):
My mother cried when I got anarm and I said wow.
So it was just a transformativeexperience.
I immersed myself into thecommunity and back then Black
students pretty much hungtogether so I quickly learned
(20:10):
who the Black community was,developed relationships, got to
know people, enjoyed long dinnerconversations at the Black
table at dinner and also atlunch, and just kind of got into
sharing of ideas hearing fromothers, of got into sharing of
(20:32):
ideas hearing from others.
And once I got comfortable thatI could manage the schoolwork
then I wasn't overwhelmed and Ireally looked forward into just
enjoying the Harvard experience.
And my experience I pretty much,I would say, stuck with the
Black community.
It was pretty insular and it'sfunny because when I've gone
back I've gone back for each ofthe milestone.
(20:54):
Every five-year class reunionsthere's discovery of like the
white community who was inparallel to us and to me and I
do recall knowing some of thewhite students who were in the
dorm that I was, in the housethat I was in.
Of course I remember people whowere on my hallway, where the
(21:16):
rooms were, but I didn't know alot of white people who were my
contemporaries and the feeling'smutual People.
We get into these deepconversations every five years
with I do with white studentswho were colleagues of mine and
it's really interesting to kindof open the book on
(21:36):
relationships that were neverdeveloped back then and are
natural places of connection andconversation today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (21:45):
Interesting.
So what did you concentrate inand which house were you in?
Just out of curiosity.
Vincent Johnson (21:51):
I majored in economics and I lived in North
House and what's interesting isthat I met my now ex-wife we
have been divorced for aboutfive years and I met her at
Harvard.
She was the class ahead of me,so she was in the class of 1978.
She lived in Mather House,which was the furthest house
(22:11):
from North House, and shemajored in biology.
She was pre-med.
So when people discovered thatwe were together, we were an
item.
They found it hard to believebecause we were very different.
She was very studious, she wasreally into the books, was very
studious.
She was really into the books,certainly wanted to be a
physician.
(22:39):
I was more your party animal.
I was like I was really a partyanimal.
I was, you know, back then thegive me the, in fact the Black
students.
Now, every five years we gettogether and we go on a boat
ride around Boston Harbor that'scalled the Aqua Boogie Boat
Ride in honor of Parliament,funkadelic, and so I would be at
all the various house partiesand I did my share of connecting
(23:02):
with you know, all kinds offolks.
She was not as social as I was.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:07):
And you met while you were there.
Vincent Johnson (23:08):
We met while we were there.
Yeah, we had a long distancerelationship Once she graduated
and she went to med school.
She went to Penn State MedSchool and I joined Procter
Gamble when I completed college.
So I was in Cincinnati and so Iwould take visits over to
Hershey, Pennsylvania, wherePenn State was.
(23:29):
And we actually got married acouple of weeks after she
graduated from Penn State MedSchool and she did her residency
in pediatrics at CincinnatiChildren's Hospital in
Cincinnati, yeah, and we weremarried for 36 years.
We were married a long time.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:49):
Wow had three kids.
Vincent Johnson (23:51):
Now we have one granddaughter.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:53):
How old?
Vincent Johnson (23:54):
The granddaughter is 21 months old.
She'll be two years old in Julyof this year, so she's at a
very engaging stage of herdevelopment and certainly I've
spent a lot of time with her onFaceTime and I'm looking forward
to spending time with her inperson over the course of the
(24:17):
summer, as well as my daughterand my son-in-law too.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:21):
Beautiful yeah , that too.
Vincent Johnson (24:24):
Yes, I can't forget.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:26):
Sweet, that's very sweet.
So you were working for ProcterGamble and I understand that
that's how you first encounteredVisions.
Vincent Johnson (24:33):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:33):
Okay, how long into your trajectory with them?
Vincent Johnson (24:37):
So I joined Procter Gamble in 1979, and I
connected with Visions in 1994.
1994.
I was HR manager in customerservices logistics and in 1994,
I worked for Jaro Marinovich andhe was a friend of Visions.
(25:05):
He passed away I think a coupleof years ago now and Jaro had
this vision of a diversityintervention for the customer
services logistics globalorganization.
It was a 700-personorganization.
Most of the people were locatedin the US and there were some
people in some of thesubsidiaries of Procter Gamble
(25:27):
in Europe and South America.
So at that time we did a requestfor a proposal, visions was
invited to provide a bid and Ihappened to read the red book
from Harvard for a class.
So back then it was our 15thclass reunion and I had kind of
(25:47):
fallen out of touch with one ofour current consultants, joe
Steele, and Joe, in his Redbookupdate to the class, said he was
doing diversity work.
So I asked Jaro, my supervisorat the time, whether we could
add Joe Steele to this list aswell.
So to make a long story short,we made the decision to award
(26:09):
the business for creating thisand designing a training
intervention to both Visions andJoe Steele, and so I will
humbly take some credit forputting Joe Steele with Visions.
I was able to be a factor inmaking that happen and it's been
a great marriage ever since.
(26:32):
And the design was outstanding.
It was based on the visionmodel, similar to the vision
models today.
There were facilitators whowere probably some of the
original visions facilitators.
700 customer services logisticsemployees were trained over a
14-month period and we did asmuch as we could in intact work
(26:56):
groups so that real diversityissues could be done in process.
It was a vigorous interventionand ongoing natural settings for
the customer services logisticsorganization and so we divided
it up into like 10 differentsessions, 70 employees per
session and I, as the processowner for Procter Gamble, had an
(27:20):
opportunity to help Visionskind of plan out the schedule
who would be going through thesessions, assigning
co-facilitators to each of thework groups and sitting in on
those process meetings duringthe course of the two-day
trainings that occurredthroughout the arc of the
(27:41):
workshop experience for theorganization and with that I
fell in love with Visions.
It was magical to me to see theimpact on work groups at
Procter Gamble who really didn'twork across difference very
well, who had longstandingissues that were under the
(28:01):
surface and never dealt with, aswell as seeing how Visions
itself made adjustments to thedesign or did kind of crowd
sharing, problem solving Ifcertain groups were getting
stuck in the process.
It was really magical.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (28:19):
So many questions, so first 700 people.
That is astonishing.
Vincent Johnson (28:26):
Yeah, Customer services logistics was a big
division back then.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (28:31):
So, having been so, you know you have this
perspective, obviously thislived experience in a number of
different places in the US,right.
So Cincinnati, big, I would say, midwestern city, and also
Pittsburgh, big Midwestern city,I would categorize that too.
What was doing that kind ofwork in the mid-90s like?
Vincent Johnson (28:54):
Well, that was the time where there was still a
lot of separation.
Something about Cincinnatithat's different than Pittsburgh
is that Cincinnati borders onKentucky, so it has a much more
Southern feel than Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh would call itselfmore Eastern, but it is
(29:14):
definitely Midwestern and, youknow, there was still a lot of
separation, black and white, and, much like Pittsburgh,
(29:35):
pittsburgh.
There wasn't a lot of Asian orLatino employees, both in
Procter Gamble in Cincinnati andsome of the other places where
customer services had its officelocations, so there was an
opportunity to do somecross-cultural work there.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:47):
Interesting.
And then so afterwards likewhat was the change that you
noticed after the two years ofwork?
Vincent Johnson (29:54):
Yeah, I think some of the biggest changes
included the invitation toproblem solve.
People were much more open tohearing about what was not
working.
One of the big issues that P&Ghad to deal with was classism.
There was a huge separationbecause Procter Gamble was very
(30:15):
much built on a military model.
There were a lot of ex-militarypeople in the Procter Gamble
leadership and so it was veryhierarchical in nature and you
know a lot of the what we wouldcall administrative people who
were not managers really didn'thave much of a voice when they
(30:36):
had so much knowledge that youknow people weren't really
allowed or really asked to bringto the business problem solving
, and so I saw lines ofcommunication opened that it
seems like it would be commonsense to have that amount of
inclusion, but back then it justdid not happen.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (30:58):
Interesting, but back then it just did not
happen.
Interesting.
I've lately started describingwhat we do as deep culture,
change work, or at least myapproach to it, my thinking
about it.
I think that there are a lot ofthings that are tangled up for
(31:22):
people in the catchphrases thatwe use diversity, equity,
inclusion, multiculturalism aswe used to call it.
So it's interesting to hearthis, how it was an invitation
to problem solve and really aninterest in a way to be with one
another differently Interesting.
So, p&g, you were introduced toVisions and then this is one of
my favorite questions like whatled you to stick around, what
keeps you coming back?
Vincent Johnson (31:39):
And yeah, you know again, I was really
impressed with the impact theorganization had during that 94
to 96 period and I left ProcterGamble in 2001.
My ex-wife wanted to come backto Pittsburgh.
(31:59):
Her parents were getting olderso I took a separation package
from Procter Gamble and I hadmaintained connection to visions
from the end of that experienceuntil when I left P&G and I was
able to attain a role of Ithink they call it assistant
(32:20):
director for communications andmarketing.
So I did communications andmarketing for like a two-year
period.
The irony is that I joinedVisions a month after I left
Procter Gamble, in August of2001.
And I joined Visions onSeptember 4th 2001.
(32:42):
9-11 happened the next week.
The economy kind of tanked so Iwas supported in doing a remote
version of the role.
So I was still based inCincinnati and I would go into
Boston like once a month and bephysically there.
But everything else was remoteand that was unsustainable for
(33:06):
the organization to compensateme as a staff member and it just
was not working.
So I left Visions in early 2003for more kind of traditional
role back in private industry.
However, I was given theinvitation to stay connected to
(33:30):
the Visions community and in2003, started my journey to
becoming a part-time consultantthrough the ongoing supervision
processes.
I did, I think, two, four days,was an apprentice to some of the
senior consultants who wereprevalent at the time and
(33:51):
developed my adeptness atworking with the model over time
, and at that time they weren'tnecessarily doing flyovers, so I
didn't fly over officially andI had these requirements that I
had to demonstrate that I couldmanage the process as well as
(34:11):
the content of the Visions modelin groups of training sessions.
And you know, to Visions credit, they allowed me to be a
part-time consultant, remotely,really ever since I took on some
roles and responsibilitiesbecause I worked for a
healthcare purchasingorganization and so I did some
(34:34):
work with healthcareinstitutions before coming here
to the University of PittsburghSchool of Law.
I worked at PNC Bank and SupplyChain Management and so I did
some work in some of the privateindustry consultations that
Visions had because I couldreally speak the language of
(34:55):
being a corporate employee andcould represent that point of
view, and so I've been reallyfortunate in that really since,
like 2003, I've been a part-timeconsultant off and on.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (35:08):
I think that's really one of the strengths of
the organization, because we allcome from such varied
backgrounds from beingclinicians to being in business,
like you are, to being academia, like like I was and really
being able to leverage thatexperience and how it interfaces
with the model when we bring itinto into organizational work
(35:29):
is I don't know.
I find that very satisfyingbecause I can also have an
impact on the kinds ofenvironments that I mean.
Frankly, I left for reasons youknow.
So, just to say for people whomight not know the terms, the
(35:52):
four day is now our personalapproach to change an equity one
workshop pace one and then flyover is our beautifully
idiosyncratic term forgraduating into being a full
consultant.
Term for graduating into beinga full consultant.
So, before we go further, I'malso curious.
(36:12):
This approach is one of the fewDEI approaches that resonated
with me deeply as somebody whogrew up mostly abroad, who
understands and I mean obviouslyit was an evolving
understanding, it took a whileto come to understand the
historical oppressions and therace dynamics and how I enter
into it as a category of personwho was allowed in the mid-60s
really, and because our way ofworking, while being race
(36:35):
forward, does take into accountand work across different
variables of oppression and canbe adapted to different contexts
.
That's what really made meconvinced about it, because I've
seen the power of it.
I've seen how powerful it hasbeen for me personally, even as
I do the work with organizations.
So when you were exposed to themodel, I'm curious what did you
(36:58):
find most personallytransformative?
Vincent Johnson (37:00):
There were a couple of things I'm curious
what did you find mostpersonally transformative?
There were a couple of things,I think feelings as messengers,
because I'm a very sensitiveperson, so feelings really
resonated with me and I likedlooking at what the messengers
are in various parts of my lifeas well as working with people
(37:21):
to kind of unlock that box.
And it's interesting becauseI'm here in the law school and I
teach a course called ExploringCultural Identities Through
Intergroup Dialogue where Iutilize a lot of the visions
tools in addition to intergroupdialogue tools that allow
students to talk about hottopics.
(37:43):
And the two biggest impacts forthe students and they were
impactful for me are thefeelings as messengers and
stroke theory, as well as modernracism, internalized oppression
.
So that package of three thingsI think really impacted me and
I see in its current delineationwith our law school students, I
(38:08):
see that impacting them as well, because law school for many of
the students is a verycompetitive experience and there
isn't a lot of permission to becollegial and it may feel like
an exposure to collaborate andcertainly to discuss one's
(38:28):
feelings in law school.
For many students it's taboo,it's like the third rail.
You don't want to do it.
So I really am glad whenstudents feel like they have a
safe space where they can checkin with regard to their feelings
and they see over the 12 weeksthat they're in the class how
(38:50):
they really get so much closerwith one another and how they
have benefited from trying onfeelings as messengers and
almost to a student.
They indicate that they want tokeep that in their toolkit as
attorneys.
Many of the students who take mycourse are more public interest
(39:11):
attorneys.
They want not to work for biglaw firms, they want to work for
people and represent those whoare underserved, and so they
really understand the modernracism, internalized oppression
piece having utility in that.
And then law school can verymuch be a stroke deprived
(39:32):
environment.
So they basked in the strokeapplication and the stroke
activity and I do it twiceduring the 12 weeks, once about
week four and then at the veryend.
And it's always very powerfulfor those students to get the
mutual strokes and for them tobreathe and take in those
(39:55):
strokes and to pick just one toshare with the rest of the class
and do a self-stroke.
All of that is really impactfuland so as I see the students go
through the process like thatit reinforces how I was really
kind of hooked into this journeyand how I'm really re-energized
(40:16):
every time I'm in these lawstudent classes and it helps me
to reflect back on my beginningsat Procter Gamble with visions.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (40:27):
Beautiful.
The feelings as messengers unitportion of the curriculum
resonated like that for me too.
I had been so far away fromanything even remotely
resembling emotional literacy,both familiarly and culturally,
that when I was first learningthe model I would actually
journal with the feeling wheel.
So, yeah, so the the strokesunit.
(40:50):
I've been calling it feedback,feedback and recognition.
Feedback is an antidote tooppression because it is verbal
and emotional feedback thatpeople are giving each other.
Vincent Johnson (41:03):
Sure enough.
You know now that you said thatI've been in environments where
strokes the connotation ofstrokes is a negative word.
So, yeah, I get that.
Yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (41:14):
And then, similarly, I have to.
I remember when I first learnedabout modern oppression and
internalized oppression, I wasquite saturated by the time we
got there and sleep deprivedbecause it was long in-person
days and that's a complicatedthing, for me.
And I remember, with theinternalized oppression slash
(41:34):
survival behavior material, Iremember thinking like, nah, I
don't do any of these things thefirst time I was exposed to it.
And then, when I was trainingup, like remember thinking like,
nah, I don't do any of thesethings the first time I was
exposed to it.
And then when I was training up, like you know, obviously we
had multiple exposures and Iremember we were doing some
problem solving and I wastalking through a situation and
Terry Berman was like that'ssystem beating, you know.
(41:55):
And I was like I'm a systembeater.
And then that's when it clickedfor me that these behaviors
were so embedded in my way ofbeing just where I grew up and
how I grew up and where I livenow and all of that that I
thought they were my personality.
Wow, these survival adaptationsright.
(42:18):
It was such a way of being,such a default way of being,
because they were such deeplyembedded survival behaviors.
So that was a mind-blowingrevelation for me and, similar
to what you're saying, becauseit was so significant for me, I
bring a certain energy to myteaching of it.
So, Pittsburgh University ofPittsburgh Law School, I think
(42:42):
it's really beautiful thatyou're teaching lawyers the
language of feelings.
I think my personal favorite isbringing that model into
academic settings, especiallySTEM academic settings.
I can see people eyeing thedoor when I say the F word and
they come around to it becauseit is such a beautifully simple
(43:03):
and true and useful model.
Vincent Johnson (43:07):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (43:08):
So you've been doing this work at UPIT Law
School and then you're also onthe Visions Board.
Vincent Johnson (43:14):
Yes, yeah, I joined the Visions Board back in
2018.
And it was at the invitation ofone of our consultants, Thomas
Griggs, and it was at a timewhen there was a recent
departure of kind of a failedexecutive director.
So it was a very tender timefor the organization at that
(43:37):
period, for the organization atthat period, and I really liked
for myself that I could bring inthe lens of having been a
client, having been a staffmember even though it was only
for a couple of years and havingbeen a part-time consultant as
a board member and I was, Ithink, immediately voted to be
(43:58):
like vice chair.
So I immediately became I'm aheartbeat away from the
chairpersonship of the board.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (44:05):
So, over the course of your work as a
consultant, as a staff member,as a board member, what have
been some of your biggestlessons?
Vincent Johnson (44:14):
It's one of the mantras we have trust the
process, no-transcript.
(44:40):
All of our meetings, as well asour committee meetings, and in
just the six years I've been onthe board there's been a real
cycle, a feast and famine withregard to the organization.
Certainly after George Floyd,the floodgates you knowates
opened and there were requestsfor visions and we were having
(45:02):
so many inquiries and we reallyneeded to respond in the moment
to all the demands of peoplewanting to be better and do
better.
I have really been gratified byseeing the latest consultants
coming into the organization whoare breathing new energy
(45:25):
younger ages, new ideas,different backgrounds and it's
really heartening to see howthat's informing, how vision
shows up when we do ourconsultations.
So I really have learned totrust the process.
I used to worry that when theelders aged out, you know, the
(45:47):
light would dim.
I'm not worried about thatanymore.
I think the light will remainbright, going forward because
systems have been establishedthat will keep itself and even
in this time when there is a lotof anti-DEI language, there are
some organizations that aredoubling down on diversity and I
(46:09):
think Visions is the right fitfor those organizations and
there's enough of them to keepus going.
You know, I think we will pushthrough this period of pushback
and continue to keep on, keepingon.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (46:25):
Beautiful.
I appreciate you saying thatyou think that my cohort and the
ones that have come inafterwards are going to keep the
torch going.
That's that that feels reallygood to hear.
And also, that said, can I tellyou, when I first trained, I'm
like I am so glad that there areadults in the room, because
sometimes, like yeah, because itcan be intimidating the kinds
(46:47):
of things that can potentiallycome up in these rooms, and I've
learned so much by watchingpeople who've done this for
decades just how deftly you allare able to handle it Right.
I've learned so much that Idon't think I could have picked
up in any other way.
So thanks for that feedback.
So I think my last ish questionI'll ask them together and you
(47:12):
can answer them however you like.
So, speaking to cohorts likemine and the ones that are
following, what is somethingthat you want to teach?
And then the other side of thatis what do you hope to see in
the world?
Vincent Johnson (47:27):
So what I hope to see in the world is that, on
a worldwide basis, we don't givein to hate.
I mean, there is so muchdivisiveness in many parts of
the world it can be.
It makes me sad to see that in2024, we're still doing inhumane
(47:49):
things and interactions andwars.
That's so barbaric in my mind.
So my wish is that we as ahuman race would get our act
together and stop the fighting.
Similarly, you know I'm verymuch anti-guns.
Gun control to me.
You know I wished there weren'tmore guns in this country than
(48:14):
there are people, and you knowthat is an issue that, to me, is
really preventing our nationfrom being the best that it can
be.
What I want to teach?
That's a good question.
I feel like I'm reallyempathetic and if you're
familiar with Myers-Briggs, I'man ENFP extroverted intuitive
(48:38):
perceptive feeling, enfpextroverted perceptive feeling,
enfp extroverted intuitivefeeling perception, and some
people call that life of theparty.
And so my hope is that peoplecontinue to connect and continue
to problem solve and workthrough the what I would call
the dysfunction that isoccurring in this nation and
(49:01):
globally to create a betterworld for our children and
grandchildren and those comingafter the grandchildren.
My wish is that we can continueto forge ahead and eliminate
the roadblocks that get in ourway from being our better selves
.
And, you know, having thislittle influence where I can to
(49:26):
use the visions model toencourage people to be open to
different approaches and newideas, to try on the model
itself and all of our guidelinesand ways of being in the world
to me really helps to advancethat cause and in some ways I
think it can be done.
(49:47):
You know, one person, one group, one organization, one company,
one nation at a time and Ithink we've got to have the
impact that you know overcomesall the negativity that's out
there.
So that's my wish.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:04):
Beautiful.
Thank you for that, and,vincent, thank you for the work
that you do and for holding theorganization in the various ways
that you do.
Vincent Johnson (50:13):
It's life-giving to me, so I get more
than I give.
There's no doubt about that.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:26):
Coming up.
Please look out for more elderstories in the lead up to our
40th anniversary celebrationthat's happening in late
September 2024 in Boston.
At that celebration, we'll behonoring the last 40 years of
our history and where we've comefrom, as well as looking toward
the future and to what kind ofworld we want to help bring
about.
Please join us if you can.
If you're new to Visions andwant to get a sense of some of
the frameworks and tools thatwe've been talking about in this
(50:46):
and other episodes of thepodcast, I invite you to check
out our Pay what you CanGuidelines for Effective
Cross-Cultural Dialogue Workshop.
It happens on the lastWednesday of every month at 4 pm
Eastern Time and is 75 minuteslong.
Links to everything are in theshow notes.
Thank you so much for listening, Until next time.
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with Visions Inc.
Welcome.
It is my pleasure today tobring you another in our series
of elder stories, this time withlongtime Visions consultant,
(00:23):
former staff member and currentboard member, Vincent Johnson.
Vincent and I talk about how hegrew up in several places as
the child of a serviceman andhow this shaped his outlook, and
about being the first in hisfamily to go to college and
getting into Harvard and how heended up in the Visions orbit.
He currently serves as theDirector of Equity and Inclusive
(00:43):
Excellence at the University ofPittsburgh School of Law.
One of the things I appreciatemost about doing these
interviews is that I learn newthings about people who I've
been in community with for years.
Vincent and I discovered thatwe'd both done a lot of growing
up abroad, albeit in verydifferent places.
It was a pleasure to talk tohim about how having that
experience as a third culturekid during his formative years
(01:06):
influenced his trajectory andhow he shows up in the work much
as it did with me.
Hi, everyone, welcome.
I'm really excited to be herewith Vincent Johnson, one of our
Vision's elders.
You've been a consultant,you've been a staff member.
You're currently a board member.
Thank you so much for talkingto us today.
Vincent Johnson (01:26):
Glad to be here , Leena, absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (01:29):
Vincent, will you introduce yourself to people
who are listening, who may notknow you?
Vincent Johnson (01:33):
Sure, I'm Vincent Johnson my pronouns are
he, him, his.
Coming to you from the landthat used to be inhabited by the
Adina and Monongahela people,it's now commonly called
Pittsburgh, pennsylvania, and Iwork in terms of full-time work
at the University of PittsburghSchool of Law in the role of
(01:56):
Director of Equity and InclusiveExcellence.
In addition, I'm doing mypart-time consulting with
Visions Incorporated.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (02:05):
Beautiful, thank you.
So we talked a little bitbefore we did this recording,
and you didn't grow up inPittsburgh.
Vincent Johnson (02:15):
That is correct .
I had what I consider to be areally interesting kind of
growing up experience.
Both of my parents are fromMississippi and in fact they
were born and raised inTallahatchie County where Emmett
Till was killed, and it waspretty common knowledge among
(02:36):
both of my parents' siblings, myaunts and uncles around who did
it, who did the heinous crime,and it was no big secret.
I actually am the son ofsomeone who was in the US Armed
Services.
My dad worked for the US AirForce in the Office of Special
(02:59):
Investigations and we did alittle bit of moving around
investigations and we did alittle bit of moving around.
My mom was a housewife until Iwent to college, so I knew her
as the kind of traditional wifeand mother from the like 1960s
kind of classic family makeup.
I was born in Topeka, kansas,and my father was stationed at
(03:24):
Forbes Air Force Base and thenwe moved to Omaha, nebraska,
where I was until I was sixyears old.
In fact I have a vivid memorywhen I was six John F Kennedy
was killed and I can rememberthe teachers being really upset
around what was going on andadults were crying and it was a
(03:44):
real jolt just having that kindof consciousness in my mind.
And then, when I turned seven,our family had the opportunity
to be with my dad in what wecalled an overseas assignment in
Okinawa, which is now a part ofJapan.
So we lived in Kadena, okinawa,from 64 to 66.
(04:09):
So I was like seven to nineyears old and those were very
formative years for me.
I was in the second and thirdgrades and what I can remember
is that my school experiencethere was really diverse.
There were lots of Asianstudents in the class because
(04:32):
the children of ambassadors,children of foreign service
people who were local to Okinawa, were at the school.
Air Force, army, navy, marinekids, we were at the school.
And then there were civilianswhose corporations had their
families there.
(04:52):
Their kids were at the school.
And so what I thought wasreally great that my dad did,
instead of living on base welived in the community of Kadena
.
So we lived among localJapanese people and I could just
remember the kind ofintegration and being around a
(05:14):
lot of Japanese people andseeing the difference between me
and those who were, you know,local to Okinawa.
And then we moved back, or movedto for the first time,
washington DC in 1966.
I was nine years old and westayed there for a few years
(05:36):
until 1971, when we had anotheropportunity to be in Asia.
My dad got an assignment inTaiwan, so we lived in a suburb
of Taipei called Tianmu andagain my dad made the similar
decision to live among theChinese in Taipei, taiwan.
(05:57):
And so I went to TaipeiAmerican School for my freshman
and sophomore years of highschool and again, similar makeup
of the student body populationand then came back to the DC
public schools where it waspretty much an all Black
experience.
So when I was in DC we lived inSoutheast DC it's pretty much a
(06:22):
poor working class environmentand the schools were pretty much
all black.
So what I can fondly hold on tois that I had really great
nurturing teachers that reallypushed me who were black and the
you know student body werestudents from the neighborhood.
(06:44):
And again, it was an interestingtime to grow up as a nerd.
People really referred to me asa nerd.
I was a voracious reader,really good at school, made good
school grades, and as I reflecton how I was treated back then,
I'm really intrigued that Iwasn't really bullied, you know,
(07:05):
people just said that that guyis, you know, a real bookworm.
In fact I earned the nicknameof Peabody from the Sherman and
Peabody part of the Bullwinklecartoon.
If you've ever seen theBullwinkle franchise there's a
little dog named Peabody andbecause I've always worn glasses
(07:25):
, they gave me the nicknamePeabody to denote my nerdiness.
So I embraced that and it keptme from, I think, being picked
on.
I just went with it.
I remembered some high schoolreunions where somebody came up
to me and said oh, I rememberedthat you let me look at your
(07:47):
paper and I got good answers andgood grades as a part of that.
So I'd say all that to say thatI was exposed to difference
early on.
I was raised in a really kindof Southern heritage household
and my growing up experience wasanchored by living in working
(08:09):
class Southeast Washington DC.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:13):
So when we talked before we did this
recording, that was the firsttime I knew that you had had
that international third culturekid experience.
Sure enough, and that's verysimilar to how I grew up.
My father wasn't military and Idid grow up mostly attending
(08:33):
international schools, americanschools, in these kinds of
surprisingly diverse so-calledexpat communities.
Seven to nine in well, okay.
So first, the first movie thatyou remember was that to
Nebraska.
Vincent Johnson (08:47):
I remember bits and pieces of Nebraska and
again it's anchored in thatstrong remembrance of when
Kennedy was killed, becausethose were really upset and I
knew something was wrong and itwas funny.
The other thing I rememberabout Omaha is that we lived in
the projects.
So I remember living in, youknow, federal housing projects,
(09:08):
as they are called today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:10):
What do you recall about that?
Like I'm just curious, I mean,I know that sounds very that age
.
Vincent Johnson (09:15):
Kind of we've.
We lived in a string ofconnected units and there were
entryways and there wereentryways.
(09:50):
Not I remember our address, andmy address was 2959 Burdette
Street in Omaha.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (09:55):
Nebraska.
It's funny the things that thatone remembers yeah right, I was
probably taught to remember myaddress.
Vincent Johnson (10:02):
it's still emblazoned here today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (10:04):
Yeah, you know , as you were speaking, it
brought to mind one of thecultural learning questions that
we ask sometimes when we do ourtrainings, and that is when did
you first become aware thatyour upbringing was different
than other people's, and how?
So when you were talking aboutliving in Okinawa among, you
(10:25):
know, local folks, I'm curiousto know what that experience was
like for you.
You said seven to nine, right.
Vincent Johnson (10:32):
Yeah, I was seven to nine years old, so that
was second and third grade Ispent over there.
Yeah, I just remember hearingdifferent languages, being
curious about the differentcharacteristics of how people
looked.
As a Black person in my class,I was the only Black boy in both
(11:07):
classes and there was one Blackgirl in the second and third
grade and the two girls weredifferent, so it wasn't the same
girl and there were a lot ofAsian students in both of the
pictures and a lot of whitestudents, both of the pictures
and a lot of white students.
(11:28):
And so I say that to say Iremembered both the feeling of
being a pretty big minority overthere and then when going to DC
, certainly a richness of an allblack environment there.
So it was quite a contrast.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (11:41):
Yeah, I can imagine.
I can imagine.
And then I'm asking thisbecause, you may know, I grew up
in Riyadh in the 80s and thatwas during a time when the Gulf
region was pulling in peoplefrom I mean, they were pulling
their skilled labor basicallyfrom all over the world.
And so I had the experience ofgrowing up in an environment
(12:05):
with the children of people whowere intrepid and ambitious
enough to come and live in Saudi, of all places, before they
progressively reformed by theirstandards in the last 10, 15
years, and that really gave me aparticular lens on what is
possible, including what ispossible in our work, right,
(12:27):
because the kids had notabsorbed the prejudices and
preconceived notions of theirparents.
And so we grew up together andwe got along in ways that I mean
I noticed that our parents likefiltered out by and hung out
with, you know, people who werevery similar to them.
So I'm curious what youobserved, either in China and or
(12:49):
in Japan, about that, and thenalso like how that contrasted or
didn't with what you saw in DC.
Vincent Johnson (12:57):
Essentially, that's an interesting question
for me.
I know when I went to Taiwan Iwas there for my freshman and
sophomore years of high school.
So the year before we went toTaiwan I was an eighth grader in
junior high in DC and again Iwas pretty much held up by my
(13:18):
peers as a smart kid, someonewho was going places.
I was really involved in a lotof club activities and
organizations at my junior highschool and when I got to Taiwan
I can remember, especially bylooking at yearbooks, that I was
voted class friendliest myfreshman year.
(13:43):
You know how they had thesuperlatives for each of the
years.
So I've always been, I think,pretty extroverted and I think I
attribute being extroverted tothose immersions in different
environments and my curiosityabout the immersion and I will
give myself a stroke aroundbeing able to be voted sophomore
(14:06):
class president.
So after being there for thefreshman year, I was class
president for the sophomore yearand, again looking at yearbooks
, I was involved in a lot ofactivities and I think, was able
to forge relationships, mix andmingle, kind of go and
integrate with different groupsof students.
(14:28):
I found that I was really goodat cross-country when I was at
Taipei American School in Taiwanand I was actually one of the
best runners.
I was really pencil thin, ifyou can believe this.
I weighed like 120 pounds.
So I was like Forrest Gump.
I could run effortlessly andrun for a long way, ran a couple
(14:50):
of marathons and so I was atriple threat in Taiwan.
I was good in the books, classleader and also good in cross
country and track.
So I kind of developed someother skills while I was over
there and that did me well whenI came back to Southeast DC for
(15:10):
my junior and senior years andit really helped me to round out
my skills and talents such thatI could be accepted into
Harvard.
I clearly believe I was abeneficiary of affirmative
action.
I'm the first person to go tocollege in my family and I was
(15:31):
fortunate enough to be invitedto matriculate into the Harvard
class of 1979.
And having, I think, anindependent school experience
and teachings helped me toreally do well on the SAT.
So I scored really well interms of SAT.
My grades were stellar both inthe Taipei American School and
(15:54):
in my high school in SoutheastDC and I can imagine that that
portfolio probably did look goodto Harvard, in that I had
demonstrated that I hadsuccessfully navigated an
independent school experience aswell as a public school
experience and I can rememberwriting my essay to get into
(16:15):
Harvard around how I was viewedby some Chinese people, chinese
people in Taiwan Back then.
I had a really big afro and Ican remember being at the local
bus stop waiting to take the bus, like into the shopping
district, because we lived inTianmu, a suburb of Taipei, and
(16:38):
Chinese people would point at orlaugh at or come over and
actually touch my hair and so Ihad, I think, like a couple of
page essay around what it waslike to be the other in an Asian
community and how that felt tome.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (16:57):
Do you still have the essay and or photos
from that period?
I definitely have photos.
Vincent Johnson (17:02):
I don't have that essay, but I've got all
kinds of photos for sure.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:07):
That's interesting.
I put in the chat a.
(17:41):
I think I found Peabody.
Vincent Johnson (17:45):
Oh yeah, that's him.
That was my nickname, Peabody.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:48):
Yes, fantastic .
Vincent Johnson (17:49):
I love it, absolutely Love it so class of
79.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (17:56):
So you started at Harvard in 75.
Vincent Johnson (17:59):
Correct and in fact going for my 45th college
reunion in May, so about sixweeks away from me, and I'm
looking forward to that.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (18:10):
Great, I'm very curious to hear how that
experience was for you.
Vincent Johnson (18:15):
You know what?
I was really overwhelmed atfirst.
Again, I was really kind ofsurprised.
I got in, even though I appliedto like I think, nine schools
and I got into eight.
I didn't get into MIT, for somereason.
I applied to MIT and I was onthe ITS academic team at my high
(18:37):
school.
I went to Ballou Senior HighSchool in DC and our ITS
academic teacher was what Iwould call, maybe today, a Teach
for America teacher.
She was fairly young.
She was a white woman fromFlorida who was also first
generation to go to college andshe went to Princeton and she
encouraged myself and the twoother it's Academic team
(19:02):
students to shoot for the stars.
So the three of us applied toHarvard, yale, princeton, I
added Dartmouth and I got intoall those schools and she
actually took us to the campusesHarvard, yale and Princeton.
And so when I got to Harvard, Iknew this is where I wanted to
be.
I was really enamored withCambridge and it just felt right
(19:26):
.
I could see myself there.
Plus, back in 75, you knowHarvard was the H-bomb.
You say Harvard and it washighly valued.
In fact, one of the things Irecall is that when I got the
big envelope, meaning that I wasadmitted into Harvard.
It was one of the few timesI've ever seen my mother cry.
(19:47):
My mother cried when I got anarm and I said wow.
So it was just a transformativeexperience.
I immersed myself into thecommunity and back then Black
students pretty much hungtogether so I quickly learned
(20:10):
who the Black community was,developed relationships, got to
know people, enjoyed long dinnerconversations at the Black
table at dinner and also atlunch, and just kind of got into
sharing of ideas hearing fromothers, of got into sharing of
(20:32):
ideas hearing from others.
And once I got comfortable thatI could manage the schoolwork
then I wasn't overwhelmed and Ireally looked forward into just
enjoying the Harvard experience.
And my experience I pretty much,I would say, stuck with the
Black community.
It was pretty insular and it'sfunny because when I've gone
back I've gone back for each ofthe milestone.
(20:54):
Every five-year class reunionsthere's discovery of like the
white community who was inparallel to us and to me and I
do recall knowing some of thewhite students who were in the
dorm that I was, in the housethat I was in.
Of course I remember people whowere on my hallway, where the
(21:16):
rooms were, but I didn't know alot of white people who were my
contemporaries and the feeling'smutual People.
We get into these deepconversations every five years
with I do with white studentswho were colleagues of mine and
it's really interesting to kindof open the book on
(21:36):
relationships that were neverdeveloped back then and are
natural places of connection andconversation today.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (21:45):
Interesting.
So what did you concentrate inand which house were you in?
Just out of curiosity.
Vincent Johnson (21:51):
I majored in economics and I lived in North
House and what's interesting isthat I met my now ex-wife we
have been divorced for aboutfive years and I met her at
Harvard.
She was the class ahead of me,so she was in the class of 1978.
She lived in Mather House,which was the furthest house
(22:11):
from North House, and shemajored in biology.
She was pre-med.
So when people discovered thatwe were together, we were an
item.
They found it hard to believebecause we were very different.
She was very studious, she wasreally into the books, was very
studious.
She was really into the books,certainly wanted to be a
physician.
(22:39):
I was more your party animal.
I was like I was really a partyanimal.
I was, you know, back then thegive me the, in fact the Black
students.
Now, every five years we gettogether and we go on a boat
ride around Boston Harbor that'scalled the Aqua Boogie Boat
Ride in honor of Parliament,funkadelic, and so I would be at
all the various house partiesand I did my share of connecting
(23:02):
with you know, all kinds offolks.
She was not as social as I was.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:07):
And you met while you were there.
Vincent Johnson (23:08):
We met while we were there.
Yeah, we had a long distancerelationship Once she graduated
and she went to med school.
She went to Penn State MedSchool and I joined Procter
Gamble when I completed college.
So I was in Cincinnati and so Iwould take visits over to
Hershey, Pennsylvania, wherePenn State was.
(23:29):
And we actually got married acouple of weeks after she
graduated from Penn State MedSchool and she did her residency
in pediatrics at CincinnatiChildren's Hospital in
Cincinnati, yeah, and we weremarried for 36 years.
We were married a long time.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:49):
Wow had three kids.
Vincent Johnson (23:51):
Now we have one granddaughter.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (23:53):
How old?
Vincent Johnson (23:54):
The granddaughter is 21 months old.
She'll be two years old in Julyof this year, so she's at a
very engaging stage of herdevelopment and certainly I've
spent a lot of time with her onFaceTime and I'm looking forward
to spending time with her inperson over the course of the
(24:17):
summer, as well as my daughterand my son-in-law too.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:21):
Beautiful yeah , that too.
Vincent Johnson (24:24):
Yes, I can't forget.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:26):
Sweet, that's very sweet.
So you were working for ProcterGamble and I understand that
that's how you first encounteredVisions.
Vincent Johnson (24:33):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (24:33):
Okay, how long into your trajectory with them?
Vincent Johnson (24:37):
So I joined Procter Gamble in 1979, and I
connected with Visions in 1994.
1994.
I was HR manager in customerservices logistics and in 1994,
I worked for Jaro Marinovich andhe was a friend of Visions.
(25:05):
He passed away I think a coupleof years ago now and Jaro had
this vision of a diversityintervention for the customer
services logistics globalorganization.
It was a 700-personorganization.
Most of the people were locatedin the US and there were some
people in some of thesubsidiaries of Procter Gamble
(25:27):
in Europe and South America.
So at that time we did a requestfor a proposal, visions was
invited to provide a bid and Ihappened to read the red book
from Harvard for a class.
So back then it was our 15thclass reunion and I had kind of
(25:47):
fallen out of touch with one ofour current consultants, joe
Steele, and Joe, in his Redbookupdate to the class, said he was
doing diversity work.
So I asked Jaro, my supervisorat the time, whether we could
add Joe Steele to this list aswell.
So to make a long story short,we made the decision to award
(26:09):
the business for creating thisand designing a training
intervention to both Visions andJoe Steele, and so I will
humbly take some credit forputting Joe Steele with Visions.
I was able to be a factor inmaking that happen and it's been
a great marriage ever since.
(26:32):
And the design was outstanding.
It was based on the visionmodel, similar to the vision
models today.
There were facilitators whowere probably some of the
original visions facilitators.
700 customer services logisticsemployees were trained over a
14-month period and we did asmuch as we could in intact work
(26:56):
groups so that real diversityissues could be done in process.
It was a vigorous interventionand ongoing natural settings for
the customer services logisticsorganization and so we divided
it up into like 10 differentsessions, 70 employees per
session and I, as the processowner for Procter Gamble, had an
(27:20):
opportunity to help Visionskind of plan out the schedule
who would be going through thesessions, assigning
co-facilitators to each of thework groups and sitting in on
those process meetings duringthe course of the two-day
trainings that occurredthroughout the arc of the
(27:41):
workshop experience for theorganization and with that I
fell in love with Visions.
It was magical to me to see theimpact on work groups at
Procter Gamble who really didn'twork across difference very
well, who had longstandingissues that were under the
(28:01):
surface and never dealt with, aswell as seeing how Visions
itself made adjustments to thedesign or did kind of crowd
sharing, problem solving Ifcertain groups were getting
stuck in the process.
It was really magical.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (28:19):
So many questions, so first 700 people.
That is astonishing.
Vincent Johnson (28:26):
Yeah, Customer services logistics was a big
division back then.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (28:31):
So, having been so, you know you have this
perspective, obviously thislived experience in a number of
different places in the US,right.
So Cincinnati, big, I would say, midwestern city, and also
Pittsburgh, big Midwestern city,I would categorize that too.
What was doing that kind ofwork in the mid-90s like?
Vincent Johnson (28:54):
Well, that was the time where there was still a
lot of separation.
Something about Cincinnatithat's different than Pittsburgh
is that Cincinnati borders onKentucky, so it has a much more
Southern feel than Pittsburgh.
Pittsburgh would call itselfmore Eastern, but it is
(29:14):
definitely Midwestern and, youknow, there was still a lot of
separation, black and white, and, much like Pittsburgh,
(29:35):
pittsburgh.
There wasn't a lot of Asian orLatino employees, both in
Procter Gamble in Cincinnati andsome of the other places where
customer services had its officelocations, so there was an
opportunity to do somecross-cultural work there.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:47):
Interesting.
And then so afterwards likewhat was the change that you
noticed after the two years ofwork?
Vincent Johnson (29:54):
Yeah, I think some of the biggest changes
included the invitation toproblem solve.
People were much more open tohearing about what was not
working.
One of the big issues that P&Ghad to deal with was classism.
There was a huge separationbecause Procter Gamble was very
(30:15):
much built on a military model.
There were a lot of ex-militarypeople in the Procter Gamble
leadership and so it was veryhierarchical in nature and you
know a lot of the what we wouldcall administrative people who
were not managers really didn'thave much of a voice when they
(30:36):
had so much knowledge that youknow people weren't really
allowed or really asked to bringto the business problem solving
, and so I saw lines ofcommunication opened that it
seems like it would be commonsense to have that amount of
inclusion, but back then it justdid not happen.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (30:58):
Interesting, but back then it just did not
happen.
Interesting.
I've lately started describingwhat we do as deep culture,
change work, or at least myapproach to it, my thinking
about it.
I think that there are a lot ofthings that are tangled up for
(31:22):
people in the catchphrases thatwe use diversity, equity,
inclusion, multiculturalism aswe used to call it.
So it's interesting to hearthis, how it was an invitation
to problem solve and really aninterest in a way to be with one
another differently Interesting.
So, p&g, you were introduced toVisions and then this is one of
my favorite questions like whatled you to stick around, what
keeps you coming back?
Vincent Johnson (31:39):
And yeah, you know again, I was really
impressed with the impact theorganization had during that 94
to 96 period and I left ProcterGamble in 2001.
My ex-wife wanted to come backto Pittsburgh.
(31:59):
Her parents were getting olderso I took a separation package
from Procter Gamble and I hadmaintained connection to visions
from the end of that experienceuntil when I left P&G and I was
able to attain a role of Ithink they call it assistant
(32:20):
director for communications andmarketing.
So I did communications andmarketing for like a two-year
period.
The irony is that I joinedVisions a month after I left
Procter Gamble, in August of2001.
And I joined Visions onSeptember 4th 2001.
(32:42):
9-11 happened the next week.
The economy kind of tanked so Iwas supported in doing a remote
version of the role.
So I was still based inCincinnati and I would go into
Boston like once a month and bephysically there.
But everything else was remoteand that was unsustainable for
(33:06):
the organization to compensateme as a staff member and it just
was not working.
So I left Visions in early 2003for more kind of traditional
role back in private industry.
However, I was given theinvitation to stay connected to
(33:30):
the Visions community and in2003, started my journey to
becoming a part-time consultantthrough the ongoing supervision
processes.
I did, I think, two, four days,was an apprentice to some of the
senior consultants who wereprevalent at the time and
(33:51):
developed my adeptness atworking with the model over time
, and at that time they weren'tnecessarily doing flyovers, so I
didn't fly over officially andI had these requirements that I
had to demonstrate that I couldmanage the process as well as
(34:11):
the content of the Visions modelin groups of training sessions.
And you know, to Visions credit, they allowed me to be a
part-time consultant, remotely,really ever since I took on some
roles and responsibilitiesbecause I worked for a
healthcare purchasingorganization and so I did some
(34:34):
work with healthcareinstitutions before coming here
to the University of PittsburghSchool of Law.
I worked at PNC Bank and SupplyChain Management and so I did
some work in some of the privateindustry consultations that
Visions had because I couldreally speak the language of
(34:55):
being a corporate employee andcould represent that point of
view, and so I've been reallyfortunate in that really since,
like 2003, I've been a part-timeconsultant off and on.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (35:08):
I think that's really one of the strengths of
the organization, because we allcome from such varied
backgrounds from beingclinicians to being in business,
like you are, to being academia, like like I was and really
being able to leverage thatexperience and how it interfaces
with the model when we bring itinto into organizational work
(35:29):
is I don't know.
I find that very satisfyingbecause I can also have an
impact on the kinds ofenvironments that I mean.
Frankly, I left for reasons youknow.
So, just to say for people whomight not know the terms, the
(35:52):
four day is now our personalapproach to change an equity one
workshop pace one and then flyover is our beautifully
idiosyncratic term forgraduating into being a full
consultant.
Term for graduating into beinga full consultant.
So, before we go further, I'malso curious.
(36:12):
This approach is one of the fewDEI approaches that resonated
with me deeply as somebody whogrew up mostly abroad, who
understands and I mean obviouslyit was an evolving
understanding, it took a whileto come to understand the
historical oppressions and therace dynamics and how I enter
into it as a category of personwho was allowed in the mid-60s
really, and because our way ofworking, while being race
(36:35):
forward, does take into accountand work across different
variables of oppression and canbe adapted to different contexts
.
That's what really made meconvinced about it, because I've
seen the power of it.
I've seen how powerful it hasbeen for me personally, even as
I do the work with organizations.
So when you were exposed to themodel, I'm curious what did you
(36:58):
find most personallytransformative?
Vincent Johnson (37:00):
There were a couple of things I'm curious
what did you find mostpersonally transformative?
There were a couple of things,I think feelings as messengers,
because I'm a very sensitiveperson, so feelings really
resonated with me and I likedlooking at what the messengers
are in various parts of my lifeas well as working with people
(37:21):
to kind of unlock that box.
And it's interesting becauseI'm here in the law school and I
teach a course called ExploringCultural Identities Through
Intergroup Dialogue where Iutilize a lot of the visions
tools in addition to intergroupdialogue tools that allow
students to talk about hottopics.
(37:43):
And the two biggest impacts forthe students and they were
impactful for me are thefeelings as messengers and
stroke theory, as well as modernracism, internalized oppression
.
So that package of three thingsI think really impacted me and
I see in its current delineationwith our law school students, I
(38:08):
see that impacting them as well, because law school for many of
the students is a verycompetitive experience and there
isn't a lot of permission to becollegial and it may feel like
an exposure to collaborate andcertainly to discuss one's
(38:28):
feelings in law school.
For many students it's taboo,it's like the third rail.
You don't want to do it.
So I really am glad whenstudents feel like they have a
safe space where they can checkin with regard to their feelings
and they see over the 12 weeksthat they're in the class how
(38:50):
they really get so much closerwith one another and how they
have benefited from trying onfeelings as messengers and
almost to a student.
They indicate that they want tokeep that in their toolkit as
attorneys.
Many of the students who take mycourse are more public interest
(39:11):
attorneys.
They want not to work for biglaw firms, they want to work for
people and represent those whoare underserved, and so they
really understand the modernracism, internalized oppression
piece having utility in that.
And then law school can verymuch be a stroke deprived
(39:32):
environment.
So they basked in the strokeapplication and the stroke
activity and I do it twiceduring the 12 weeks, once about
week four and then at the veryend.
And it's always very powerfulfor those students to get the
mutual strokes and for them tobreathe and take in those
(39:55):
strokes and to pick just one toshare with the rest of the class
and do a self-stroke.
All of that is really impactfuland so as I see the students go
through the process like thatit reinforces how I was really
kind of hooked into this journeyand how I'm really re-energized
(40:16):
every time I'm in these lawstudent classes and it helps me
to reflect back on my beginningsat Procter Gamble with visions.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (40:27):
Beautiful.
The feelings as messengers unitportion of the curriculum
resonated like that for me too.
I had been so far away fromanything even remotely
resembling emotional literacy,both familiarly and culturally,
that when I was first learningthe model I would actually
journal with the feeling wheel.
So, yeah, so the the strokesunit.
(40:50):
I've been calling it feedback,feedback and recognition.
Feedback is an antidote tooppression because it is verbal
and emotional feedback thatpeople are giving each other.
Vincent Johnson (41:03):
Sure enough.
You know now that you said thatI've been in environments where
strokes the connotation ofstrokes is a negative word.
So, yeah, I get that.
Yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (41:14):
And then, similarly, I have to.
I remember when I first learnedabout modern oppression and
internalized oppression, I wasquite saturated by the time we
got there and sleep deprivedbecause it was long in-person
days and that's a complicatedthing, for me.
And I remember, with theinternalized oppression slash
(41:34):
survival behavior material, Iremember thinking like, nah, I
don't do any of these things thefirst time I was exposed to it.
And then, when I was trainingup, like remember thinking like,
nah, I don't do any of thesethings the first time I was
exposed to it.
And then when I was training up, like you know, obviously we
had multiple exposures and Iremember we were doing some
problem solving and I wastalking through a situation and
Terry Berman was like that'ssystem beating, you know.
(41:55):
And I was like I'm a systembeater.
And then that's when it clickedfor me that these behaviors
were so embedded in my way ofbeing just where I grew up and
how I grew up and where I livenow and all of that that I
thought they were my personality.
Wow, these survival adaptationsright.
(42:18):
It was such a way of being,such a default way of being,
because they were such deeplyembedded survival behaviors.
So that was a mind-blowingrevelation for me and, similar
to what you're saying, becauseit was so significant for me, I
bring a certain energy to myteaching of it.
So, Pittsburgh University ofPittsburgh Law School, I think
(42:42):
it's really beautiful thatyou're teaching lawyers the
language of feelings.
I think my personal favorite isbringing that model into
academic settings, especiallySTEM academic settings.
I can see people eyeing thedoor when I say the F word and
they come around to it becauseit is such a beautifully simple
(43:03):
and true and useful model.
Vincent Johnson (43:07):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (43:08):
So you've been doing this work at UPIT Law
School and then you're also onthe Visions Board.
Vincent Johnson (43:14):
Yes, yeah, I joined the Visions Board back in
2018.
And it was at the invitation ofone of our consultants, Thomas
Griggs, and it was at a timewhen there was a recent
departure of kind of a failedexecutive director.
So it was a very tender timefor the organization at that
(43:37):
period, for the organization atthat period, and I really liked
for myself that I could bring inthe lens of having been a
client, having been a staffmember even though it was only
for a couple of years and havingbeen a part-time consultant as
a board member and I was, Ithink, immediately voted to be
(43:58):
like vice chair.
So I immediately became I'm aheartbeat away from the
chairpersonship of the board.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (44:05):
So, over the course of your work as a
consultant, as a staff member,as a board member, what have
been some of your biggestlessons?
Vincent Johnson (44:14):
It's one of the mantras we have trust the
process, no-transcript.
(44:40):
All of our meetings, as well asour committee meetings, and in
just the six years I've been onthe board there's been a real
cycle, a feast and famine withregard to the organization.
Certainly after George Floyd,the floodgates you knowates
opened and there were requestsfor visions and we were having
(45:02):
so many inquiries and we reallyneeded to respond in the moment
to all the demands of peoplewanting to be better and do
better.
I have really been gratified byseeing the latest consultants
coming into the organization whoare breathing new energy
(45:25):
younger ages, new ideas,different backgrounds and it's
really heartening to see howthat's informing, how vision
shows up when we do ourconsultations.
So I really have learned totrust the process.
I used to worry that when theelders aged out, you know, the
(45:47):
light would dim.
I'm not worried about thatanymore.
I think the light will remainbright, going forward because
systems have been establishedthat will keep itself and even
in this time when there is a lotof anti-DEI language, there are
some organizations that aredoubling down on diversity and I
(46:09):
think Visions is the right fitfor those organizations and
there's enough of them to keepus going.
You know, I think we will pushthrough this period of pushback
and continue to keep on, keepingon.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (46:25):
Beautiful.
I appreciate you saying thatyou think that my cohort and the
ones that have come inafterwards are going to keep the
torch going.
That's that that feels reallygood to hear.
And also, that said, can I tellyou, when I first trained, I'm
like I am so glad that there areadults in the room, because
sometimes, like yeah, because itcan be intimidating the kinds
(46:47):
of things that can potentiallycome up in these rooms, and I've
learned so much by watchingpeople who've done this for
decades just how deftly you allare able to handle it Right.
I've learned so much that Idon't think I could have picked
up in any other way.
So thanks for that feedback.
So I think my last ish questionI'll ask them together and you
(47:12):
can answer them however you like.
So, speaking to cohorts likemine and the ones that are
following, what is somethingthat you want to teach?
And then the other side of thatis what do you hope to see in
the world?
Vincent Johnson (47:27):
So what I hope to see in the world is that, on
a worldwide basis, we don't givein to hate.
I mean, there is so muchdivisiveness in many parts of
the world it can be.
It makes me sad to see that in2024, we're still doing inhumane
(47:49):
things and interactions andwars.
That's so barbaric in my mind.
So my wish is that we as ahuman race would get our act
together and stop the fighting.
Similarly, you know I'm verymuch anti-guns.
Gun control to me.
You know I wished there weren'tmore guns in this country than
(48:14):
there are people, and you knowthat is an issue that, to me, is
really preventing our nationfrom being the best that it can
be.
What I want to teach?
That's a good question.
I feel like I'm reallyempathetic and if you're
familiar with Myers-Briggs, I'man ENFP extroverted intuitive
(48:38):
perceptive feeling, enfpextroverted perceptive feeling,
enfp extroverted intuitivefeeling perception, and some
people call that life of theparty.
And so my hope is that peoplecontinue to connect and continue
to problem solve and workthrough the what I would call
the dysfunction that isoccurring in this nation and
(49:01):
globally to create a betterworld for our children and
grandchildren and those comingafter the grandchildren.
My wish is that we can continueto forge ahead and eliminate
the roadblocks that get in ourway from being our better selves
.
And, you know, having thislittle influence where I can to
(49:26):
use the visions model toencourage people to be open to
different approaches and newideas, to try on the model
itself and all of our guidelinesand ways of being in the world
to me really helps to advancethat cause and in some ways I
think it can be done.
(49:47):
You know, one person, one group, one organization, one company,
one nation at a time and Ithink we've got to have the
impact that you know overcomesall the negativity that's out
there.
So that's my wish.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:04):
Beautiful.
Thank you for that, and,vincent, thank you for the work
that you do and for holding theorganization in the various ways
that you do.
Vincent Johnson (50:13):
It's life-giving to me, so I get more
than I give.
There's no doubt about that.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (50:26):
Coming up.
Please look out for more elderstories in the lead up to our
40th anniversary celebrationthat's happening in late
September 2024 in Boston.
At that celebration, we'll behonoring the last 40 years of
our history and where we've comefrom, as well as looking toward
the future and to what kind ofworld we want to help bring
about.
Please join us if you can.
If you're new to Visions andwant to get a sense of some of
the frameworks and tools thatwe've been talking about in this
(50:46):
and other episodes of thepodcast, I invite you to check
out our Pay what you CanGuidelines for Effective
Cross-Cultural Dialogue Workshop.
It happens on the lastWednesday of every month at 4 pm
Eastern Time and is 75 minuteslong.
Links to everything are in theshow notes.
Thank you so much for listening, Until next time.
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