June 28, 2024 • 50 mins
What does it mean to embrace a multicultural, democratic society in a nation scarred by Apartheid? Join us for the second part of our interview with Dr. Julian Sonn, who has spent the last thirty years working towards transformational change in South Africa. From the exuberance of the first democratic elections in 1994 to the ongoing quest for inclusivity, Dr. Sonn offers an in-depth look at the power and potential for leadership in bringing about transformation for South Africans.
We recorded this just after a historic election took place here that offers powerful potential for change– if people can learn to work together. Dr. Sonn talks about the legacies of colonialism, fascism, and systemic oppression that has left an indelible mark on the country. As he reflects on both the progress and setbacks over the last three decades, he underscores the potential of the VISIONS model to overcome barriers and move toward multicultural democracy, which has deep implications for understanding both the stakes and the possibilities of the present moment in South Africa and beyond.
Will we see you in Boston in September 2024 for VISIONS 40th Anniversary Celebration? Learn more here!
Interested in learning more about our approach and model? VISIONS offers a pay-what-you-can (free if you want!) introduction to our Guidelines for Effective Cross Cultural Dialogue on the last Wednesday of every month. All are welcome. Learn more about Guidelines and our other programs here!
Some terms:
Afrikaans - a language spoken in South Africa with influences from the descendants of European (Dutch, German, and French) colonists, indigenous Khoisan peoples, and enslaved African and Asian people in the Dutch colony at the Cape of Good Hope.
Boers/Afrikaaners -Afrikaans-speaking descendants of Dutch, German, or Huguenot settlers in contemporary South Africa.
Broederbond - see Wikipedia.
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About us
Into Liberation: A podcast about transformative change, equity, and liberation is a production of VISIONS, Inc, a non-profit that offers effective tools that help individuals and organizations communicate and forge connections across differences that drive collective success.
Since 1984, we’ve offered research-based, time-tested approaches to cross-cultural learning that invite participants to engage in equity and inclusion work, starting at the personal and interpersonal levels and expanding to include changes toward institutional and cultural levels.
VISIONS offers actionable approaches that empower people to identify actions, explore their motivations, and effectively move through complex situations with respect and humanity for others and their differences.
Any opinions and views expressed by the speakers are their own and do not reflect the positions of VISIONS, Inc.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (00:00):
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with Visions Inc.
Welcome, welcome back.
This is part two of myconversation with Visions elder
(00:21):
and senior consultant, dr JulianSonn.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe work that he's been doing on
the ground in South Africa overthe last three decades and
about the forces that haveshaped South Africa in the
present moment.
We recorded this episode justafter a historic election took
place here.
That offers powerful potentialfor change if people can learn
(00:42):
to work together.
We also talk about thepotential that he sees for the
future, and so much of what hesays has deep implications for
understanding both the stakesand the possibilities in the
present moment.
I'm actually married to a SouthAfrican and have been learning
a great deal about the legacy ofapartheid.
One thing that surprised me wasthe extent to which the
(01:02):
techniques for segregation,displacement, possession and
exploitation that the apartheidgovernment used were learned via
exchange explicit exchange withNazi Germany, but also, before
that, going back to enslavementand segregation in the US US.
(01:26):
Ultimately, this work our work,vision's work is about bringing
about a better world where wecan show up fully in our
differences and work together.
And Julian and I end thisconversation by talking about
how he believes the Vision'smodel offers a powerful way
forward for developingtransformational leadership in
South Africa.
Dr. Julian Sonn (01:41):
Coming back in 1990 was the beginning of an
exciting time in South Africa.
There was a lot of enthusiasmand a lot of happiness that it
seemed like we would be able tocreate a normal society.
And then, of course, in 1994,we voted for the first time, and
(02:04):
that was really a wonderfuloccasion, with people standing
in long lines waiting for hoursto vote, and it created a whole
spirit of optimism in which wethen worked.
So I felt at that time therewas a keenness on the part of
everybody to get direction onparticularly the process of
(02:27):
transformation that we were thentalking more of moving away
from apartheid and moving awayfrom colonialism.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (02:37):
So when you say transformation, that's what
you're talking about.
Dr. Julian Sonn (02:40):
We define it very clearly in the workshops
because it's one of thoseconcepts that we use the concept
but we don't always check whatwe mean by it.
I think most people have asense of it's, including black
people, and that in many ways isa very limited way of thinking
(03:02):
about transformation, becauseit's also a threatening way for
white people and they then feelthey're not part of this vision
that we have for the country.
So when we work we alwaysclarify it.
It means moving away from amonocultural to a multicultural
(03:24):
society where differences andsimilarities are accepted and
the differences are actuallyvalued, Our diversity as a
people, our heterogeneity, isvalued.
So, and that monocultural meantone culture, the Western
culture was regarded as the normand the standard and we were
(03:45):
all socialized to embrace thenotion that that culture is
better than that, white is rightand West is best.
Second level is we're movingaway from autocratic society to
a democratic society, and thenwe speak about that.
The previous governments wereall autocratic, particularly
(04:06):
after 1948, when we really had afascist government.
That was entirely autocratic.
And in an autocratic societythere was always an assumption
that the leader knows what'sright and we must just follow
the leader, and we were notencouraged to feel engaged in
(04:27):
the country and trust our ownthinking.
With the result we've beensocialized not to think and also
we've been punished if we takeleadership roles.
So most of our leaders werecalled agitators and
troublemakers and thereforeleadership was never valued and
(04:51):
therefore not developed, and wewere not encouraged to think for
ourselves.
The assumption was your leadersknows what's best for you, what
the Nazis called the FührerPrinciple, that the leader knows
the truth and will define thetruth very much what Trump is
doing now.
So we clarify what theautocratic society means and we
(05:15):
get other examples from theparticipants, and then we speak
about democracy and how wereally need to focus on
educating all South Africans inorder for the democracy to be
substantive.
Also, that we've never reallyhad a democracy because less
(05:35):
than 10% of the people, about 6%of the population, voted, so
we've never really had ademocracy, although we pretend
it like we're a democraticcountry.
As a result, we often don'tknow what it means to be a
democracy, and we need to then.
So transformation is alsotalking about that.
(05:59):
Then the third level is thatwe've always been a very
exclusive society.
We couldn't go to the hotels,we couldn't swim in the beaches.
We couldn't eat in therestaurants.
We lived in separateneighborhoods, so big parts of
the city was not accessible tous.
So we've always been a veryexclusive society and now we are
(06:23):
creating a more inclusivesociety.
So that's an important level oftransformation as well, and we
need to be mindful in everythingwe do to ask ourselves am I
being democratic in thedecision-making processes?
Who's present?
Are those folks empowered?
(06:44):
Are those folks participating?
And then also to value thediversity in ourselves and in
others and in our society,Because we were told that those
parts of us that's indigenouswas primitive and barbaric.
That's indigenous was primitiveand barbaric.
(07:07):
With the result we have becomeashamed to acknowledge that we
have Sáhán people who wereenslaved, Khoi Xhosa ancestry,
because all those ethnic groupswere vilified and presented in
such negative ways by thepolitical leaders over the years
.
With the result we must alwaysbe mindful that we're democratic
(07:32):
in what we do and alsoinclusive and that we value the
differences.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (07:38):
So there's a few things that I want to ask
you out of what you said.
I know that you're doing workon the impending threat of
fascism.
I know that that's somethingthat you're actively working and
speaking and writing about.
Now I learned when I came herethe degree to which I mean,
obviously, apartheid was noaccident, and one of the things
(08:01):
that I found I don't know why Iwas surprised, but the
intentionality with which peoplewho eventually instituted it
had studied, as you've mentionedto me before, in Nazi Germany,
really studying the technologiesof how to control populations
and displace them and all ofthat.
(08:23):
So that's one thing.
The second is that a friend ofmine who's a poet told me about
a play that she wrote a numberof years ago now, a bit of which
was around a quote, I think itmight have been from the last
National Party Prime Minister'swife about colored being a
(08:44):
nothing category.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:46):
What was left over?
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:48):
Because Evie de Klerk's wife, Marike de Klerk,
subsequently murdered under verysuspicious circumstances.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:55):
Oh, wow.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:56):
Okay, but yeah, she said that their son was
dating a woman from the coloredcommunity in Stellenbosch and
apparently had quite a seriousrelationship with her, and she
then disapproved what's soironic.
She's very dark-skinned, youknow, and I think those
dark-skinned white folks inSouth Africa were often more
(09:20):
expressive of their racism and Ithink they must have had a
difficult time, you know,interesting, but in any case,
she made that statement.
Yeah, and you know, within thecolored community too, in
workshops, when we speak aboutidentity and about culture,
people will sometimes or peoplefrom the colored community will
(09:43):
sometimes say we don't have aculture Again, because we were
not really educated to look atourselves as diverse people.
Neither were we educated tounderstand culture, because if
we were educated to understandculture, we would have been
(10:03):
critical of the culture, boththe cultures we come from and
the culture that was beingcreated in South Africa.
So there's a whole.
Currently, too, it's not atopic that we were really
educated about and that wereally know what it means, but
so often in the coloredcommunity that there is that
(10:26):
sense and then it's really greatto speak about the richness of
the culture and it's part of theempowering process of really
helping all South Africansreally.
Now, white folks do to look attheir cultures and look at all
the other elements of theirculture, because they also have
(10:46):
a sense that their whole culturewas racism and therefore
there's a shame about beingproud of being a European South
African, and so it's alsohelpful for those folks to start
looking at their culture andspeaking about what are all the
(11:08):
things that you've really valuedand enjoyed about the way you
grew up, that you continue tovalue and make a distinction
(11:29):
from the indoctrination you weresubjected to by the Afrikaner
Broederbund and the NationalParty.
Now the propaganda was alsoperpetuated by the Afrikaans
churches and therefore it wasvirtually impossible, I think,
for someone who grew up in thosecommunities not to be deeply
affected, and, of course, intheir homes too.
So, in all the different levelsof society, that message was
(11:55):
that they after us and be kindto us, because we are these,
what it would say ondergeschikte, yeah inferior people who needs
guidance and who needs support.
That was when the universitythat I attended, which was now
(12:20):
specifically for the coloredcommunities, but there was one
for the Indian and so on thatinitially was the statements of
the rector and of the professors, that they are here to uplift
us and they are here to provideus with this education.
And this was in 1960, whenMadiba was already in court and
(12:43):
there were already a number ofvery prominent people in society
.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (12:47):
And yet that was the rhetoric church as well
as whatever you want to sayabout where the people who
instituted apartheid like howintentional it was.
(13:09):
Not necessarily a whole history, but there was so much that I
learned that was a surprise.
Learning about the Bruderbundwas a surprise.
Learning about how they veryintentionally did this studying
in fascist Nazi Germany and thenwere able to take those
technologies and implement themvery successfully quote unquote
here after the fall of NaziGermany and then were able to
take those technologies andimplement them very successfully
quote unquote here after thefall of Nazi Germany.
Dr. Julian Sonn (13:30):
Let me just take a step back.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (13:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (13:32):
So in the work I do in South Africa, I speak
initially.
I use Vichon's model ofguidelines, assumptions, early
learning, once an expectationcontract, and I find that very
helpful.
I often add to that creating apositive climate by showing
(13:56):
gratitude and appreciating andforgiveness.
And then I spoke about thecontext of colonialism and
(14:21):
fascism, or the ideology ofwhite male supremacy or
far-right thinking, which peoplesometimes find more easier to
take.
Then the fascism after 48, thatracism and sexism was really
embedded in those forms ofoppression and that again, we
were not educated about whatcolonialism was.
That colonialism was forcedentry, destroying the indigenous
(14:43):
cultures and substituting itwith your culture, then
utilizing all the resources foryour benefit, often exporting it
and lastly, giving the people asense of we are not of value
and our culture and ourreligious beliefs are not of
(15:05):
value.
Therefore, we need to not onlyspeak the language of the
colonial people but also embracetheir religion and their
culture.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (15:16):
When you say that, it makes me think about
our internalized oppressionmodel, a lack of an
understanding of thesignificance of political
difference.
Dr. Julian Sonn (15:25):
Exactly yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (15:27):
And that is a survival behavior, because I
think if you're deeplyentrenched in it, keeping at
least one eye closed to itprevents you from going mad.
Dr. Julian Sonn (15:35):
Right, the whole area of internalized
depression has been a verypowerful theory to help with the
empowerment of all of us.
And so, yeah, when we generatethose examples in the black
groups and in the women groups,they usually come up with a
(15:58):
whole lot of examples.
Then the white folks would comeand just not even have one flip
of example of white racism, andto some extent it was so much
that notion of the fish doesn'tknow what's in the water.
Racism and sexism was sopervasive that I think, as a man
(16:23):
, I discovered my own sexismwhen I was 30 years old at NYU.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (16:32):
I'm sure you have some good stories about
that.
Dr. Julian Sonn (16:34):
Oh, the women clobbered me when I opened my
mouth.
When I opened my mouth and itwas initially so difficult, and
then the penny dropped for meand I realized, wow, these women
are responding like I respondedto the white folks in South
(16:56):
Africa Right, Would speak aboutyour people and then immediately
I would clobber them.
But what do you mean?
Your people, Right?
Yeah, so that was therealization.
I do have a lot of stories aboutmy own exposure to my own
sexism, and so I have sympathywith the white folks who really
(17:20):
find it difficult to unless theyfeel very safe to speak about
and to reflect on what themessages were that they were
told and to see that as messagesthat they took in, and often
you know that their parentstaught them.
As a result, there's sort of asacred quality to it.
(17:40):
So, yeah, so I think, speakingabout colonialism then, and then
also speaking about fascism andhow, as you said earlier, all
those leaders that wereprominent after 1948 studied in
Germany.
Verwoerd also studied inHolland.
(18:03):
Hendrik Verwoerd was the PrimeMinister of South Africa and was
most akin to Adolf Hitler inthe level of influence.
He had Studied at theUniversity of Berlin, where Guy
Eugene Fischer came up with thatnotion that African people
contaminate European people whenthey sleep with them, that we
(18:26):
are a pollutant and that theoffspring are like defective
people.
And he did his research inReoboth in South West Africa
with the Reoboth busters, thepeople my mother comes from that
particular Nama group of people, and it was bogus research.
(18:47):
So they call him a racialscientist.
There was nothing scientificabout these methods or the
concept that he used.
So yeah, Verwoerd studied atthe University of Berlin and
studied psychology.
So all of them studied thereand came back and took over this
organization called theAfrikaner Broederbond and
(19:10):
immediately also startedinfluencing the students and
creating the AfrikaanseStudenterbond, Immediately
started influencing the mineworkers and created the Mine
Workers Union, and so they thencreated the myths and the
policies that were fascistic andthat they then called apartheid
(19:31):
.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (19:32):
It was essentially a secret society.
Dr. Julian Sonn (19:35):
It was initially much more public when
the Germans were winning the war, up to 1945.
A organization called theOsservaar Brandenburg had
300,000 members in 1940, andthey were less than they were a
little more than a millionpeople.
(19:55):
With the result the OsservaarBrandenburg was a very popular
and powerful organization andthey were out and out national
socialistic and they thoughtwhen Hitler wins they will
become a satellite of Germany.
So a guy called Hans vanRensburg positioned himself to
(20:17):
be the future leader of SouthAfrica and at that time we were
fighting on the side of theAllies or the United Party, jan
Smuts and Herzog's government.
With the result they had to Nowonly after 1945, when Hitler
committed suicide and theGermans were beginning to lose
(20:40):
that.
They then went underground andwere operating in secret and
they actually ran the countrybecause they created both the
myths and the policies and theycreated 2,000 propaganda
organizations that they calledcultural organizations and the
(21:01):
churches were part of theirstructures, for example, the
ring in Stellenbosch andStellenbosch is a very special
town in South Africa on thewhole, but particularly in the
Boer South Africans history andculture.
That ring would get the mythsand the draft policies from the
(21:25):
Bruderbund.
The ministers will then lookfor justification in the Bible
and then send all of that to allthe churches around the country
.
So the preachers will thenpreach how beneficial the Mixed
Marriages Act would be, or theImmorality Act, or or the Job
Reservation Act or the GroupAreas Act, how beneficial it
(21:49):
would be and how it can bejustified biblically.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (21:52):
So these are all apartheid era segregationist
, anti-miscegenation policies,right and also the land, the
group areas and the forcedremoval act was.
Dr. Julian Sonn (22:09):
Their aim was to create a white republic and
to literally get rid of us.
So the banter stones werecreated to get rid of all
indigenous people and they werein the beginning stages of also
to create colored stones.
Like Atlantis is stillfunctioning, Mitchell's Plain.
But then the wine farmers andthe industrialists, like Anton
Rupert, objected to that, totheir workers being removed from
(22:34):
the farms and from thefactories, and it's only because
of that that they then stoppedthe notion of creating Khalid
Stans.
But they went ahead with theirband to stand policy and the aim
was to create a white republicLiterally remove all of us,
(22:55):
which is part of fascistthinking.
Not only do you remove, but youalso introduce genocide.
Not only do you remove, but youalso introduce genocide and the
impoverishment in those areas.
Initially that they calledBantustans, a lot of people were
dying of hunger.
A lot of diseases, like washicore was a direct result of
(23:19):
hunger.
So there was an element ofgenocide introduced as well.
And if you look at thetownships today, with a high
level of violence, there is away that many of the colored
communities in those areas arenot growing.
Or if you look at the level ofpoverty in parts of like Aelitsa
(23:39):
or any town or city in CapeTown, you realize that those
folks are not really growing youknow, they have a lot of
children, but those childrenwon't get the education and the
life skills really to livequality lives.
So a process was introducedthere, literally not to have us
(24:00):
grow and thrive, but to removeus.
So these places that you'redescribing, these are areas
where people of differentcategories were forcibly
displaced to you had the GroupAreas Act, where 75,000 people
from the colored families wereremoved from their neighborhoods
(24:24):
, like we were removed from ourneighborhood in Claremont.
Our churches were taken andmore than 4 million what we call
Africans, indigenous people,wanguni speaking, were removed
from their land and pushed intothe Bantu Stands, which was
barren land at that time.
(24:44):
Then the government providedthem with money and created a
culture of entitlement, so theycreated the artificial middle
dwells and now those people arestreaming to the Western Cape
and if you see in any of thetowns, you see all the Africans
coming from the eastern Cape Oneare living here and living on
(25:07):
the sand dunes.
You know that.
You see in Khayelitsha.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (25:11):
So there's this long, nearly 50-year legacy
of these kinds of policies ofhaving created all white areas,
having displaced people,dispossessed them of their land,
put them into certain areas orrestricted their options, and
when apartheid ended, that's thelegacy that we're dealing with.
(25:34):
So you described the 90s as aperiod of great optimism and
hope.
How do you feel that the last30 years have gone?
Dr. Julian Sonn (25:43):
optimism and hope.
How do you feel that the last30 years have gone?
A lot of gains were made, likea lot of homes were built, a lot
of us in the indigenouscommunities were able to get
good education and, because ofthe corruption, we haven't
really fulfilled our mission tocreate a more inclusive, humane
(26:09):
society and provide the samequality of education for all
children.
So there were gains, and we arefree to travel and to speak our
minds, although on the latter,at Stellenbosch University,
whenever I spoke about fascismimmediately the next day, there
(26:34):
were consequences.
Fortunately, because of thechanges, there were enough
influential people too that I Icould then just get going to
help him address the unfairnesson the campus.
(27:08):
And you know, for those twoyears I really had a wonderful
opportunity to see what's goingon on the campus.
And I think, because of who Iam and because I'm and I think
because of who I am and becauseI'm you know, I'm a psychologist
I've really been ethical aboutthe information I was privy to.
(27:30):
But so, yeah, a lot has changed.
We have really failed thepeople.
The ANC had failed the peoplein that they haven't used the
resources of the country todevelop us in the manner that
they could have.
(27:50):
So this elections we just hadmight give us an opportunity to
work together to do what wedidn't do after 1949.
Let me just also say thisNelson Mandela was a great 1994.
, 1994, yeah, 1994,.
(28:11):
Right, mandela and most of thepeople in his cabinet were doing
a great job.
Mandela in particular did agreat reconciliatory job.
He was really seen as someonewho was looking at everybody as
citizens of South Africa andwanting to include them.
So we had that period, thefirst decade, that things were
(28:39):
improving practically on alllevels.
It's after him that we startedsliding, and particularly after
Becky.
So in any case, from that timethings didn't improve in the
manner that it could have.
And now we have an opportunity.
(28:59):
If we create genuinely agovernment of national unity, we
have an opportunity.
If we create genuinely agovernment of national unity, we
have an opportunity to addressthose issues.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:10):
Yeah well, so this is where I think about your
emphasis on transformationalleadership and the work that I
know that you're you've beendoing and that you're keen on
still doing.
So I guess my curiosity is whatpotential do you see, and
particularly where the Visionsmodel is concerned, in terms of
(29:32):
the intervention that couldhappen now?
Dr. Julian Sonn (29:35):
Well, visions is a powerful model that enables
honest conversation and in thecontext of those honest
conversations we get to see andlisten to each other, often for
the first time, and thereforeit's really an opportunity then
(29:58):
for personal change to happen.
And I've had such a lot ofexperiences with that with some
of the folks who fought inAngola on the side of the
government, the white folkswould sit in a workshop with
some of the Africans who foughton the side of Thwapo, and they
(30:22):
would talk to each other aboutwhat their experiences were at
that time in Angola, and theywould also speak about what were
their beliefs, and particularlythe white folks were so
thoroughly indoctrinated thatthey genuinely believed all of
(30:43):
us are communists and funded byRussia, and so Vision's model
really enabled us not to talkhonestly and to really get to
know each other.
It also helped us clarify ourown oppression and our own
(31:04):
internalized oppression, andthen provide you know you
mentioned alternative behaviors,then provide alternative
behaviors and look for examplesof where some of those behaviors
were already used and what thepositive results have been.
(31:26):
So I think that aspect of theworkshop is also very empowering
, both the getting to understandthe concepts and having a sense
that you can unlearn theconcepts and then getting
alternative ways of being isempowering and then after that
(31:47):
to speak about.
So what is our vision for SouthAfrica?
Because that's another thing wehaven't really done.
Our leaders really haven'tarticulated a vision of
inclusive, humane society andalso didn't after Madiba didn't
model it.
We fell into this oppositionalpolitics of vilifying each other
(32:12):
and given that there are so fewof us who have been well
educated, we can't really affordto have opposition parties.
We can't really afford to haveopposition parties.
I think that's why I'moptimistic about the
possibilities of having more ofa government of national unity.
(32:33):
And another point on that is in1970, 10 times more was spent
on the education of the whitechild.
Before that even more.
I think in 1916 it was 17 timesmore.
When I came back in 1990, Ilooked at the figures, it was
five times more.
(32:53):
So there has been animprovement.
Yeah, with the result the whitefolks in South Africa are well
educated.
They're also doing those 50years at all.
The resources of the countryspent on their development Right
(33:16):
processes to take the positionthat that is our responsibility
as black people is making thetransformation virtually
impossible because they stillcontrol the economy and they do
have an attitude of it's thegovernment's responsibility to
transform.
The government is sitting withthe debt of the apartheid
(33:40):
government.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (33:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (34:00):
And the interests are huge.
They also have a responsibilityfor the whole of the population
, for all 60 million people.
Previous government createddebt and used all the resources
of the country to benefit lessthan 10% of the population.
So we have very well resourcedpeople in South Africa and the
DA is an example of that.
Western Cape is working,services are being provided and
so I hope, with the governmentof national unity, that there
would be much more of acooperative involvement in all
(34:22):
these projects.
And again, I think our workshopsprovide people with a tool to
begin to have thoseconversations and not to feel
threatened by each other or notto feel threatened by someone
like myself who speak abouttransformation, because of the
(34:45):
way I then have an opportunityto speak about transformation as
an inclusive process.
You know such a lot of thetools, of visions, the four
levels is hugely helpful because, on the whole, people don't
think about change in thatparticular way.
(35:07):
It's hugely helpful that westart with self and realize that
we need to start with ourselvesand initiate the process.
I also find that ego statemodel of how we became
contaminated that Felipedescribed so beautifully, that
(35:31):
is the invaluable model to takeaway sense of blame and shame
and just realized.
You know, when my father saidwomen are lousy drivers, I
didn't think he was beingprejudiced.
I just thought that was a factand if that's not challenged, I
could go through my lifebelieving that.
So I find that model has beenvery helpful, yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (35:58):
So tell me a little bit about living here in
Betty's Bay.
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:00):
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about living
here in Betty's Bay.
Betty's Bay has a fascinatinghistory.
It's a beautiful community andit was the home of Hendrik
Verwoerd.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (36:13):
Who is the?
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:14):
Who is the Prime Minister of South Africa,
who was assassinated in 1961,who was murdered in parliament.
But in many ways he was abrilliant man and it was during
his time that the worstlegislation was passed, so in
many ways he can be equated toAdolf Hitler.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (36:38):
So you're living in his town now.
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:40):
I live in his town.
My cousin's house looks down onhis house, Wow, and there was
boom gates in this community soyou couldn't come in here unless
you could say who you're goingto visit.
So when I moved in here thepeople who live next door and
(37:02):
the people who live next door tothat come from that era.
When I drove up here, myneighbor was standing on his
stoop sort of, I think, curious,and I greeted.
He didn't bat an eye, he justlooked at me, you know, and I
started singing and acting likeI didn't greet him and he
(37:25):
maintained that stance, neverspoke or greeted.
And when he left he came over,knocked on my door and he asked
aren't there any of your peoplewho'd be interested to buy my
house?
The man on the other side also,initially he didn't look to
(37:46):
greet and….
Dr. Leena Akhtar (37:48):
This is when you bought in the 90s right.
Dr. Julian Sonn (37:50):
That's when I bought like I think I started
moving in 96, 97, that I spentmore time here and subsequently
a lot of different people havemoved in and a lot of you know
younger, more progressive people.
So things have changed.
And again, this is not a goodexample of South Africa because
(38:14):
it is a more exclusiveneighborhood.
Yeah, but I think it does bothpresent the possibilities and
the opportunities that we nowshare and it still has pockets
of that old South Africa in it.
There are a lot of you knowprogressive elements in the town
(38:35):
as well.
Zahn has actually been helpfulfor me in being more friendly
with the neighbors.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (38:49):
I just Does that surprise me?
Dr. Julian Sonn (38:52):
After those experiences I've had, initially
I've just Kept to yourself, yeah, kept to myself and yeah, so
she's been talking to everybodythat.
Yeah, so things are changinghere.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:11):
You said now I'm asking this because we're
planning to do some programminghere in South Africa 30 years on
from when Visions was on theground in the 90s, and you
mentioned some of the peoplethat you trained in those
initial classes.
Those initial four-day courseshave gone on to do some quite
(39:34):
prominent work and are still inpositions of influence now.
I'm just curious what yourecall about that, about the
people who you worked with, whatsome of them are up to now.
Dr. Julian Sonn (39:49):
Well, cecil Jacobs, our friend who's a step
away from being a general in thepolice, was a brigadier.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (39:57):
Practically immediately after the training
he got promoted to beresponsible for equity in his
particular area and then hebecame responsible for equity in
that whole region.
He was then transferred to theCape where he was responsible
for the forensics program.
(40:18):
So he had to investigate allthat because he was seen as
someone of integrity and hestill had that reputation.
And you know him, I do.
The woman who went to theUniversity of South Africa was a
co-facilitator of mine.
(40:39):
Sometimes she became also headof their diversity department,
created that department, becamehead of that department and is
now responsible for.
And then she was responsiblefor implementing the program on
looking at people withdisabilities, which is a hugely
neglected area.
(40:59):
You can imagine if all of usindigenous people were treated
so poorly.
There was very little attentionto people with disabilities.
The three people I can think ofnow in KwaZulu-Natal also got
senior positions in the policeand also in the area of equity
(41:22):
and diversity.
And then also the people inLimpopo.
One of them became a deputycommissioner of his area and I
used him as a co-facilitatorwhenever I had to do work in
Limpopo.
Same with the police in PortElizabeth.
(41:43):
The woman who was there, karenSkierpers, also became
responsible for the diversity inall of that police department
in the Eastern Cape, karenSkierpers, that I continue to
also use as a co-facilitator.
So I really like this idea thatVal has been pushing for a
(42:04):
while, that we get these folkstogether and together decide
what's the next step for us.
Because you mentioned my focuson transformational leadership,
because there was never a focuson developing leadership in
South Africa.
There's a huge need foreverybody who are in leadership
(42:28):
positions really to understandwhat that means.
One, the influence you haveover the followers and your
ability to really changepeople's lives.
And of course, there are such alot of good examples of that,
like the different rectors we'vehad in South Africa, at Western
(42:50):
Cape, at Pentec that Zahnattended.
A lot of those rectors broughtabout great changes on those
campuses.
One guy that I think veryhighly of is a man called Derek
Swartz at the Nelson MandelaUniversity in PE.
That was a BruderbundUniversity.
(43:10):
Madiba personally asked him totake over that university and
they changed the name to theNelson Mandela University and
it's a respected university.
The same for Western Cape.
I mean we called it the BushCollege because it was so much
created by the fascists and thepeople in positions of power.
(43:34):
All spoke about how highly theythought of Hendrik Verwoerd,
and that university is alsobecoming a top-level university
that in some fields areworld-class.
So we've got a lot of examplesof transformation leadership,
(43:55):
but we don't always see it thatway and we don't always think of
leadership in that way.
And you know, I take theposition that all of us who are
in leadership positions willalso have opportunities to be
transformational leaders.
And it's important to know whatthat means.
(44:15):
And I give examples of that.
One is as soon as you getengaged in those conversations,
leave your ego at home, focus onthe other, focus on the issue.
Yeah, so there are specificskills that people can learn
that they would make them moreeffective when they step into
(44:39):
those roles more effective whenthey step into those roles.
Also, to be compassionate Ifyou choose to step into that
role, make sure that you arecompassionate for all the
parties that you are engaging inand that you don't take a side.
As soon as you take a side, oneside won't trust you and you
won't be effective in engagingeffectively.
(45:01):
And then speak about thecooperative model that I think
is such a powerful model.
You asked Felipe about Joe.
So Joe was the person whofacilitated our cooperative
process when we, as Visions,used to have our retreats every
year, and I really appreciatedthat about Visions too, that
(45:24):
every year we had a retreat andat that retreat we had an
opportunity to express ourappreciations for each other and
also to express our resentments, so that we learn to be honest
about that, that we learn to behonest about that, and so you
(45:46):
know, sharing elements of thatcooperative process also a very
valuable tool for us who chooseto step into these
transformational leadershiproles.
Yeah, and you know, I think themost important thing for me is
that visions taught me to livewhat I preach, to live with
integrity, like in myrelationship with women, that I
(46:09):
think visions provides us with away of living with each other
us a way of living with eachother, that we live the values
of equality and mutual respectand all those values that I
(46:30):
think we as leaders in SouthAfrica desperately need, and to
also experience the benefits ofthat.
I think, like the quality ofour relationships with each
other in visions was such awonderful lesson for me, just
the closeness of relationships Ihave with men and women and
(46:53):
never feeling competitive.
Also, I think we benefited agreat deal from the women being
honest with us.
I remember in the olden days, wewould always expect the women
to bring the jars and theequipment, and so we were often
(47:17):
confronted about that.
Another thing the women oftenconfronted us about was sleeping
in workshops.
They would always point outthat no women have ever slept in
a workshop, and meanwhile,apparently a few of us nodded
off Really and there was anelement of entitlement in that.
(47:43):
Well, and also the fact thatyou have such strong women in
leadership roles and bishops.
I think it's also been veryhelpful.
Yeah, so now the Visions model.
You know it's been a greatlearning school for me and I
(48:04):
learned such a lot of tools, butalso it contributed to my own
development, and continue to dothat, because I think it also
taught me that you always haveto learn, taught me that you
always have to learn, and youknow you're always confronted
(48:24):
with elements of yourself thatyou are in a position to change
and make decisions about tochange.
So, yeah, I'm you know I'mreally looking the way that you
energize particularly Cecil,because Cecil can't wait to do
(48:49):
more.
Visions work.
Yeah, yeah, so great.
So thank you for this too.
It's good to talk and to thinkabout this.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (48:58):
For sure.
I have been looking forward tothis interview, so I'm very glad
that we've made the time.
It's always wonderful to havean excuse to come out to this
beautiful, beautiful place thatyou live and I don't know.
I've just really enjoyedgetting to know you over this
past year, year and a half, andI'm excited now that, with this,
(49:19):
more folks who are in my cohortat Visions, who haven't
necessarily met you, will havean opportunity to get to know
you a little bit.
Dr. Julian Sonn (49:26):
Okay, wonderful as will our community.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (49:28):
Yeah, thank you so much, julian.
Dr. Julian Sonn (49:30):
Okay, you're very welcome.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (49:34):
We are celebrating our 40th anniversary
in Boston on September 27th2024.
Anniversary in Boston onSeptember 27th 2024.
And we have a very excitinglineup of guests of honor,
including Renee Myers, gloriaSteinem and the Reverend Dr
William J Barber.
If you're interested inattending or sponsoring, there's
a link to event information inthe show notes.
I very much hope we'll see youthere.
In addition to our work inorganizations, visions offers a
(49:58):
host of public-facing workshops,ranging from our four-day Pace
One workshop to shorterofferings like Fundamentals of
Inclusivity, to our monthly Paywhat you Can, guidelines for
Effective Cross-CulturalDialogue, which is a great
75-minute introduction to how wework and our approach.
I warmly invite you to attend.
Thank you so much for listening.
(50:19):
Until next time.
Hello, you're listening to Into Liberation, a
podcast about transformativechange, equity and working
against oppression.
I'm Leena Akhtar, director ofPrograms with Visions Inc.
Welcome, welcome back.
This is part two of myconversation with Visions elder
(00:21):
and senior consultant, dr JulianSonn.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe work that he's been doing on
the ground in South Africa overthe last three decades and
about the forces that haveshaped South Africa in the
present moment.
We recorded this episode justafter a historic election took
place here.
That offers powerful potentialfor change if people can learn
(00:42):
to work together.
We also talk about thepotential that he sees for the
future, and so much of what hesays has deep implications for
understanding both the stakesand the possibilities in the
present moment.
I'm actually married to a SouthAfrican and have been learning
a great deal about the legacy ofapartheid.
One thing that surprised me wasthe extent to which the
(01:02):
techniques for segregation,displacement, possession and
exploitation that the apartheidgovernment used were learned via
exchange explicit exchange withNazi Germany, but also, before
that, going back to enslavementand segregation in the US US.
(01:26):
Ultimately, this work our work,vision's work is about bringing
about a better world where wecan show up fully in our
differences and work together.
And Julian and I end thisconversation by talking about
how he believes the Vision'smodel offers a powerful way
forward for developingtransformational leadership in
South Africa.
Dr. Julian Sonn (01:41):
Coming back in 1990 was the beginning of an
exciting time in South Africa.
There was a lot of enthusiasmand a lot of happiness that it
seemed like we would be able tocreate a normal society.
And then, of course, in 1994,we voted for the first time, and
(02:04):
that was really a wonderfuloccasion, with people standing
in long lines waiting for hoursto vote, and it created a whole
spirit of optimism in which wethen worked.
So I felt at that time therewas a keenness on the part of
everybody to get direction onparticularly the process of
(02:27):
transformation that we were thentalking more of moving away
from apartheid and moving awayfrom colonialism.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (02:37):
So when you say transformation, that's what
you're talking about.
Dr. Julian Sonn (02:40):
We define it very clearly in the workshops
because it's one of thoseconcepts that we use the concept
but we don't always check whatwe mean by it.
I think most people have asense of it's, including black
people, and that in many ways isa very limited way of thinking
(03:02):
about transformation, becauseit's also a threatening way for
white people and they then feelthey're not part of this vision
that we have for the country.
So when we work we alwaysclarify it.
It means moving away from amonocultural to a multicultural
(03:24):
society where differences andsimilarities are accepted and
the differences are actuallyvalued, Our diversity as a
people, our heterogeneity, isvalued.
So, and that monocultural meantone culture, the Western
culture was regarded as the normand the standard and we were
(03:45):
all socialized to embrace thenotion that that culture is
better than that, white is rightand West is best.
Second level is we're movingaway from autocratic society to
a democratic society, and thenwe speak about that.
The previous governments wereall autocratic, particularly
(04:06):
after 1948, when we really had afascist government.
That was entirely autocratic.
And in an autocratic societythere was always an assumption
that the leader knows what'sright and we must just follow
the leader, and we were notencouraged to feel engaged in
(04:27):
the country and trust our ownthinking.
With the result we've beensocialized not to think and also
we've been punished if we takeleadership roles.
So most of our leaders werecalled agitators and
troublemakers and thereforeleadership was never valued and
(04:51):
therefore not developed, and wewere not encouraged to think for
ourselves.
The assumption was your leadersknows what's best for you, what
the Nazis called the FührerPrinciple, that the leader knows
the truth and will define thetruth very much what Trump is
doing now.
So we clarify what theautocratic society means and we
(05:15):
get other examples from theparticipants, and then we speak
about democracy and how wereally need to focus on
educating all South Africans inorder for the democracy to be
substantive.
Also, that we've never reallyhad a democracy because less
(05:35):
than 10% of the people, about 6%of the population, voted, so
we've never really had ademocracy, although we pretend
it like we're a democraticcountry.
As a result, we often don'tknow what it means to be a
democracy, and we need to then.
So transformation is alsotalking about that.
(05:59):
Then the third level is thatwe've always been a very
exclusive society.
We couldn't go to the hotels,we couldn't swim in the beaches.
We couldn't eat in therestaurants.
We lived in separateneighborhoods, so big parts of
the city was not accessible tous.
So we've always been a veryexclusive society and now we are
(06:23):
creating a more inclusivesociety.
So that's an important level oftransformation as well, and we
need to be mindful in everythingwe do to ask ourselves am I
being democratic in thedecision-making processes?
Who's present?
Are those folks empowered?
(06:44):
Are those folks participating?
And then also to value thediversity in ourselves and in
others and in our society,Because we were told that those
parts of us that's indigenouswas primitive and barbaric.
That's indigenous was primitiveand barbaric.
(07:07):
With the result we have becomeashamed to acknowledge that we
have Sáhán people who wereenslaved, Khoi Xhosa ancestry,
because all those ethnic groupswere vilified and presented in
such negative ways by thepolitical leaders over the years
.
With the result we must alwaysbe mindful that we're democratic
(07:32):
in what we do and alsoinclusive and that we value the
differences.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (07:38):
So there's a few things that I want to ask
you out of what you said.
I know that you're doing workon the impending threat of
fascism.
I know that that's somethingthat you're actively working and
speaking and writing about.
Now I learned when I came herethe degree to which I mean,
obviously, apartheid was noaccident, and one of the things
(08:01):
that I found I don't know why Iwas surprised, but the
intentionality with which peoplewho eventually instituted it
had studied, as you've mentionedto me before, in Nazi Germany,
really studying the technologiesof how to control populations
and displace them and all ofthat.
(08:23):
So that's one thing.
The second is that a friend ofmine who's a poet told me about
a play that she wrote a numberof years ago now, a bit of which
was around a quote, I think itmight have been from the last
National Party Prime Minister'swife about colored being a
(08:44):
nothing category.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:46):
What was left over?
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:47):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:48):
Because Evie de Klerk's wife, Marike de Klerk,
subsequently murdered under verysuspicious circumstances.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (08:55):
Oh, wow.
Dr. Julian Sonn (08:56):
Okay, but yeah, she said that their son was
dating a woman from the coloredcommunity in Stellenbosch and
apparently had quite a seriousrelationship with her, and she
then disapproved what's soironic.
She's very dark-skinned, youknow, and I think those
dark-skinned white folks inSouth Africa were often more
(09:20):
expressive of their racism and Ithink they must have had a
difficult time, you know,interesting, but in any case,
she made that statement.
Yeah, and you know, within thecolored community too, in
workshops, when we speak aboutidentity and about culture,
people will sometimes or peoplefrom the colored community will
(09:43):
sometimes say we don't have aculture Again, because we were
not really educated to look atourselves as diverse people.
Neither were we educated tounderstand culture, because if
we were educated to understandculture, we would have been
(10:03):
critical of the culture, boththe cultures we come from and
the culture that was beingcreated in South Africa.
So there's a whole.
Currently, too, it's not atopic that we were really
educated about and that wereally know what it means, but
so often in the coloredcommunity that there is that
(10:26):
sense and then it's really greatto speak about the richness of
the culture and it's part of theempowering process of really
helping all South Africansreally.
Now, white folks do to look attheir cultures and look at all
the other elements of theirculture, because they also have
(10:46):
a sense that their whole culturewas racism and therefore
there's a shame about beingproud of being a European South
African, and so it's alsohelpful for those folks to start
looking at their culture andspeaking about what are all the
(11:08):
things that you've really valuedand enjoyed about the way you
grew up, that you continue tovalue and make a distinction
(11:29):
from the indoctrination you weresubjected to by the Afrikaner
Broederbund and the NationalParty.
Now the propaganda was alsoperpetuated by the Afrikaans
churches and therefore it wasvirtually impossible, I think,
for someone who grew up in thosecommunities not to be deeply
affected, and, of course, intheir homes too.
So, in all the different levelsof society, that message was
(11:55):
that they after us and be kindto us, because we are these,
what it would say ondergeschikte, yeah inferior people who needs
guidance and who needs support.
That was when the universitythat I attended, which was now
(12:20):
specifically for the coloredcommunities, but there was one
for the Indian and so on thatinitially was the statements of
the rector and of the professors, that they are here to uplift
us and they are here to provideus with this education.
And this was in 1960, whenMadiba was already in court and
(12:43):
there were already a number ofvery prominent people in society
.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (12:47):
And yet that was the rhetoric church as well
as whatever you want to sayabout where the people who
instituted apartheid like howintentional it was.
(13:09):
Not necessarily a whole history, but there was so much that I
learned that was a surprise.
Learning about the Bruderbundwas a surprise.
Learning about how they veryintentionally did this studying
in fascist Nazi Germany and thenwere able to take those
technologies and implement themvery successfully quote unquote
here after the fall of NaziGermany and then were able to
take those technologies andimplement them very successfully
quote unquote here after thefall of Nazi Germany.
Dr. Julian Sonn (13:30):
Let me just take a step back.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (13:32):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (13:32):
So in the work I do in South Africa, I speak
initially.
I use Vichon's model ofguidelines, assumptions, early
learning, once an expectationcontract, and I find that very
helpful.
I often add to that creating apositive climate by showing
(13:56):
gratitude and appreciating andforgiveness.
And then I spoke about thecontext of colonialism and
(14:21):
fascism, or the ideology ofwhite male supremacy or
far-right thinking, which peoplesometimes find more easier to
take.
Then the fascism after 48, thatracism and sexism was really
embedded in those forms ofoppression and that again, we
were not educated about whatcolonialism was.
That colonialism was forcedentry, destroying the indigenous
(14:43):
cultures and substituting itwith your culture, then
utilizing all the resources foryour benefit, often exporting it
and lastly, giving the people asense of we are not of value
and our culture and ourreligious beliefs are not of
(15:05):
value.
Therefore, we need to not onlyspeak the language of the
colonial people but also embracetheir religion and their
culture.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (15:16):
When you say that, it makes me think about
our internalized oppressionmodel, a lack of an
understanding of thesignificance of political
difference.
Dr. Julian Sonn (15:25):
Exactly yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (15:27):
And that is a survival behavior, because I
think if you're deeplyentrenched in it, keeping at
least one eye closed to itprevents you from going mad.
Dr. Julian Sonn (15:35):
Right, the whole area of internalized
depression has been a verypowerful theory to help with the
empowerment of all of us.
And so, yeah, when we generatethose examples in the black
groups and in the women groups,they usually come up with a
(15:58):
whole lot of examples.
Then the white folks would comeand just not even have one flip
of example of white racism, andto some extent it was so much
that notion of the fish doesn'tknow what's in the water.
Racism and sexism was sopervasive that I think, as a man
(16:23):
, I discovered my own sexismwhen I was 30 years old at NYU.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (16:32):
I'm sure you have some good stories about
that.
Dr. Julian Sonn (16:34):
Oh, the women clobbered me when I opened my
mouth.
When I opened my mouth and itwas initially so difficult, and
then the penny dropped for meand I realized, wow, these women
are responding like I respondedto the white folks in South
(16:56):
Africa Right, Would speak aboutyour people and then immediately
I would clobber them.
But what do you mean?
Your people, Right?
Yeah, so that was therealization.
I do have a lot of stories aboutmy own exposure to my own
sexism, and so I have sympathywith the white folks who really
(17:20):
find it difficult to unless theyfeel very safe to speak about
and to reflect on what themessages were that they were
told and to see that as messagesthat they took in, and often
you know that their parentstaught them.
As a result, there's sort of asacred quality to it.
(17:40):
So, yeah, so I think, speakingabout colonialism then, and then
also speaking about fascism andhow, as you said earlier, all
those leaders that wereprominent after 1948 studied in
Germany.
Verwoerd also studied inHolland.
(18:03):
Hendrik Verwoerd was the PrimeMinister of South Africa and was
most akin to Adolf Hitler inthe level of influence.
He had Studied at theUniversity of Berlin, where Guy
Eugene Fischer came up with thatnotion that African people
contaminate European people whenthey sleep with them, that we
(18:26):
are a pollutant and that theoffspring are like defective
people.
And he did his research inReoboth in South West Africa
with the Reoboth busters, thepeople my mother comes from that
particular Nama group of people, and it was bogus research.
(18:47):
So they call him a racialscientist.
There was nothing scientificabout these methods or the
concept that he used.
So yeah, Verwoerd studied atthe University of Berlin and
studied psychology.
So all of them studied thereand came back and took over this
organization called theAfrikaner Broederbond and
(19:10):
immediately also startedinfluencing the students and
creating the AfrikaanseStudenterbond, Immediately
started influencing the mineworkers and created the Mine
Workers Union, and so they thencreated the myths and the
policies that were fascistic andthat they then called apartheid
(19:31):
.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (19:32):
It was essentially a secret society.
Dr. Julian Sonn (19:35):
It was initially much more public when
the Germans were winning the war, up to 1945.
A organization called theOsservaar Brandenburg had
300,000 members in 1940, andthey were less than they were a
little more than a millionpeople.
(19:55):
With the result the OsservaarBrandenburg was a very popular
and powerful organization andthey were out and out national
socialistic and they thoughtwhen Hitler wins they will
become a satellite of Germany.
So a guy called Hans vanRensburg positioned himself to
(20:17):
be the future leader of SouthAfrica and at that time we were
fighting on the side of theAllies or the United Party, jan
Smuts and Herzog's government.
With the result they had to Nowonly after 1945, when Hitler
committed suicide and theGermans were beginning to lose
(20:40):
that.
They then went underground andwere operating in secret and
they actually ran the countrybecause they created both the
myths and the policies and theycreated 2,000 propaganda
organizations that they calledcultural organizations and the
(21:01):
churches were part of theirstructures, for example, the
ring in Stellenbosch andStellenbosch is a very special
town in South Africa on thewhole, but particularly in the
Boer South Africans history andculture.
That ring would get the mythsand the draft policies from the
(21:25):
Bruderbund.
The ministers will then lookfor justification in the Bible
and then send all of that to allthe churches around the country
.
So the preachers will thenpreach how beneficial the Mixed
Marriages Act would be, or theImmorality Act, or or the Job
Reservation Act or the GroupAreas Act, how beneficial it
(21:49):
would be and how it can bejustified biblically.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (21:52):
So these are all apartheid era segregationist
, anti-miscegenation policies,right and also the land, the
group areas and the forcedremoval act was.
Dr. Julian Sonn (22:09):
Their aim was to create a white republic and
to literally get rid of us.
So the banter stones werecreated to get rid of all
indigenous people and they werein the beginning stages of also
to create colored stones.
Like Atlantis is stillfunctioning, Mitchell's Plain.
But then the wine farmers andthe industrialists, like Anton
Rupert, objected to that, totheir workers being removed from
(22:34):
the farms and from thefactories, and it's only because
of that that they then stoppedthe notion of creating Khalid
Stans.
But they went ahead with theirband to stand policy and the aim
was to create a white republicLiterally remove all of us,
(22:55):
which is part of fascistthinking.
Not only do you remove, but youalso introduce genocide.
Not only do you remove, but youalso introduce genocide and the
impoverishment in those areas.
Initially that they calledBantustans, a lot of people were
dying of hunger.
A lot of diseases, like washicore was a direct result of
(23:19):
hunger.
So there was an element ofgenocide introduced as well.
And if you look at thetownships today, with a high
level of violence, there is away that many of the colored
communities in those areas arenot growing.
Or if you look at the level ofpoverty in parts of like Aelitsa
(23:39):
or any town or city in CapeTown, you realize that those
folks are not really growing youknow, they have a lot of
children, but those childrenwon't get the education and the
life skills really to livequality lives.
So a process was introducedthere, literally not to have us
(24:00):
grow and thrive, but to removeus.
So these places that you'redescribing, these are areas
where people of differentcategories were forcibly
displaced to you had the GroupAreas Act, where 75,000 people
from the colored families wereremoved from their neighborhoods
(24:24):
, like we were removed from ourneighborhood in Claremont.
Our churches were taken andmore than 4 million what we call
Africans, indigenous people,wanguni speaking, were removed
from their land and pushed intothe Bantu Stands, which was
barren land at that time.
(24:44):
Then the government providedthem with money and created a
culture of entitlement, so theycreated the artificial middle
dwells and now those people arestreaming to the Western Cape
and if you see in any of thetowns, you see all the Africans
coming from the eastern Cape Oneare living here and living on
(25:07):
the sand dunes.
You know that.
You see in Khayelitsha.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (25:11):
So there's this long, nearly 50-year legacy
of these kinds of policies ofhaving created all white areas,
having displaced people,dispossessed them of their land,
put them into certain areas orrestricted their options, and
when apartheid ended, that's thelegacy that we're dealing with.
(25:34):
So you described the 90s as aperiod of great optimism and
hope.
How do you feel that the last30 years have gone?
Dr. Julian Sonn (25:43):
optimism and hope.
How do you feel that the last30 years have gone?
A lot of gains were made, likea lot of homes were built, a lot
of us in the indigenouscommunities were able to get
good education and, because ofthe corruption, we haven't
really fulfilled our mission tocreate a more inclusive, humane
(26:09):
society and provide the samequality of education for all
children.
So there were gains, and we arefree to travel and to speak our
minds, although on the latter,at Stellenbosch University,
whenever I spoke about fascismimmediately the next day, there
(26:34):
were consequences.
Fortunately, because of thechanges, there were enough
influential people too that I Icould then just get going to
help him address the unfairnesson the campus.
(27:08):
And you know, for those twoyears I really had a wonderful
opportunity to see what's goingon on the campus.
And I think, because of who Iam and because I'm and I think
because of who I am and becauseI'm you know, I'm a psychologist
I've really been ethical aboutthe information I was privy to.
(27:30):
But so, yeah, a lot has changed.
We have really failed thepeople.
The ANC had failed the peoplein that they haven't used the
resources of the country todevelop us in the manner that
they could have.
(27:50):
So this elections we just hadmight give us an opportunity to
work together to do what wedidn't do after 1949.
Let me just also say thisNelson Mandela was a great 1994.
, 1994, yeah, 1994,.
(28:11):
Right, mandela and most of thepeople in his cabinet were doing
a great job.
Mandela in particular did agreat reconciliatory job.
He was really seen as someonewho was looking at everybody as
citizens of South Africa andwanting to include them.
So we had that period, thefirst decade, that things were
(28:39):
improving practically on alllevels.
It's after him that we startedsliding, and particularly after
Becky.
So in any case, from that timethings didn't improve in the
manner that it could have.
And now we have an opportunity.
(28:59):
If we create genuinely agovernment of national unity, we
have an opportunity.
If we create genuinely agovernment of national unity, we
have an opportunity to addressthose issues.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (29:10):
Yeah well, so this is where I think about your
emphasis on transformationalleadership and the work that I
know that you're you've beendoing and that you're keen on
still doing.
So I guess my curiosity is whatpotential do you see, and
particularly where the Visionsmodel is concerned, in terms of
(29:32):
the intervention that couldhappen now?
Dr. Julian Sonn (29:35):
Well, visions is a powerful model that enables
honest conversation and in thecontext of those honest
conversations we get to see andlisten to each other, often for
the first time, and thereforeit's really an opportunity then
(29:58):
for personal change to happen.
And I've had such a lot ofexperiences with that with some
of the folks who fought inAngola on the side of the
government, the white folkswould sit in a workshop with
some of the Africans who foughton the side of Thwapo, and they
(30:22):
would talk to each other aboutwhat their experiences were at
that time in Angola, and theywould also speak about what were
their beliefs, and particularlythe white folks were so
thoroughly indoctrinated thatthey genuinely believed all of
(30:43):
us are communists and funded byRussia, and so Vision's model
really enabled us not to talkhonestly and to really get to
know each other.
It also helped us clarify ourown oppression and our own
(31:04):
internalized oppression, andthen provide you know you
mentioned alternative behaviors,then provide alternative
behaviors and look for examplesof where some of those behaviors
were already used and what thepositive results have been.
(31:26):
So I think that aspect of theworkshop is also very empowering
, both the getting to understandthe concepts and having a sense
that you can unlearn theconcepts and then getting
alternative ways of being isempowering and then after that
(31:47):
to speak about.
So what is our vision for SouthAfrica?
Because that's another thing wehaven't really done.
Our leaders really haven'tarticulated a vision of
inclusive, humane society andalso didn't after Madiba didn't
model it.
We fell into this oppositionalpolitics of vilifying each other
(32:12):
and given that there are so fewof us who have been well
educated, we can't really affordto have opposition parties.
We can't really afford to haveopposition parties.
I think that's why I'moptimistic about the
possibilities of having more ofa government of national unity.
(32:33):
And another point on that is in1970, 10 times more was spent
on the education of the whitechild.
Before that even more.
I think in 1916 it was 17 timesmore.
When I came back in 1990, Ilooked at the figures, it was
five times more.
(32:53):
So there has been animprovement.
Yeah, with the result the whitefolks in South Africa are well
educated.
They're also doing those 50years at all.
The resources of the countryspent on their development Right
(33:16):
processes to take the positionthat that is our responsibility
as black people is making thetransformation virtually
impossible because they stillcontrol the economy and they do
have an attitude of it's thegovernment's responsibility to
transform.
The government is sitting withthe debt of the apartheid
(33:40):
government.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (33:41):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (34:00):
And the interests are huge.
They also have a responsibilityfor the whole of the population
, for all 60 million people.
Previous government createddebt and used all the resources
of the country to benefit lessthan 10% of the population.
So we have very well resourcedpeople in South Africa and the
DA is an example of that.
Western Cape is working,services are being provided and
so I hope, with the governmentof national unity, that there
would be much more of acooperative involvement in all
(34:22):
these projects.
And again, I think our workshopsprovide people with a tool to
begin to have thoseconversations and not to feel
threatened by each other or notto feel threatened by someone
like myself who speak abouttransformation, because of the
(34:45):
way I then have an opportunityto speak about transformation as
an inclusive process.
You know such a lot of thetools, of visions, the four
levels is hugely helpful because, on the whole, people don't
think about change in thatparticular way.
(35:07):
It's hugely helpful that westart with self and realize that
we need to start with ourselvesand initiate the process.
I also find that ego statemodel of how we became
contaminated that Felipedescribed so beautifully, that
(35:31):
is the invaluable model to takeaway sense of blame and shame
and just realized.
You know, when my father saidwomen are lousy drivers, I
didn't think he was beingprejudiced.
I just thought that was a factand if that's not challenged, I
could go through my lifebelieving that.
So I find that model has beenvery helpful, yeah.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (35:58):
So tell me a little bit about living here in
Betty's Bay.
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:00):
Yeah, so tell me a little bit about living
here in Betty's Bay.
Betty's Bay has a fascinatinghistory.
It's a beautiful community andit was the home of Hendrik
Verwoerd.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (36:13):
Who is the?
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:14):
Who is the Prime Minister of South Africa,
who was assassinated in 1961,who was murdered in parliament.
But in many ways he was abrilliant man and it was during
his time that the worstlegislation was passed, so in
many ways he can be equated toAdolf Hitler.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (36:38):
So you're living in his town now.
Dr. Julian Sonn (36:40):
I live in his town.
My cousin's house looks down onhis house, Wow, and there was
boom gates in this community soyou couldn't come in here unless
you could say who you're goingto visit.
So when I moved in here thepeople who live next door and
(37:02):
the people who live next door tothat come from that era.
When I drove up here, myneighbor was standing on his
stoop sort of, I think, curious,and I greeted.
He didn't bat an eye, he justlooked at me, you know, and I
started singing and acting likeI didn't greet him and he
(37:25):
maintained that stance, neverspoke or greeted.
And when he left he came over,knocked on my door and he asked
aren't there any of your peoplewho'd be interested to buy my
house?
The man on the other side also,initially he didn't look to
(37:46):
greet and….
Dr. Leena Akhtar (37:48):
This is when you bought in the 90s right.
Dr. Julian Sonn (37:50):
That's when I bought like I think I started
moving in 96, 97, that I spentmore time here and subsequently
a lot of different people havemoved in and a lot of you know
younger, more progressive people.
So things have changed.
And again, this is not a goodexample of South Africa because
(38:14):
it is a more exclusiveneighborhood.
Yeah, but I think it does bothpresent the possibilities and
the opportunities that we nowshare and it still has pockets
of that old South Africa in it.
There are a lot of you knowprogressive elements in the town
(38:35):
as well.
Zahn has actually been helpfulfor me in being more friendly
with the neighbors.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (38:49):
I just Does that surprise me?
Dr. Julian Sonn (38:52):
After those experiences I've had, initially
I've just Kept to yourself, yeah, kept to myself and yeah, so
she's been talking to everybodythat.
Yeah, so things are changinghere.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:11):
You said now I'm asking this because we're
planning to do some programminghere in South Africa 30 years on
from when Visions was on theground in the 90s, and you
mentioned some of the peoplethat you trained in those
initial classes.
Those initial four-day courseshave gone on to do some quite
(39:34):
prominent work and are still inpositions of influence now.
I'm just curious what yourecall about that, about the
people who you worked with, whatsome of them are up to now.
Dr. Julian Sonn (39:49):
Well, cecil Jacobs, our friend who's a step
away from being a general in thepolice, was a brigadier.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (39:56):
Yeah.
Dr. Julian Sonn (39:57):
Practically immediately after the training
he got promoted to beresponsible for equity in his
particular area and then hebecame responsible for equity in
that whole region.
He was then transferred to theCape where he was responsible
for the forensics program.
(40:18):
So he had to investigate allthat because he was seen as
someone of integrity and hestill had that reputation.
And you know him, I do.
The woman who went to theUniversity of South Africa was a
co-facilitator of mine.
(40:39):
Sometimes she became also headof their diversity department,
created that department, becamehead of that department and is
now responsible for.
And then she was responsiblefor implementing the program on
looking at people withdisabilities, which is a hugely
neglected area.
(40:59):
You can imagine if all of usindigenous people were treated
so poorly.
There was very little attentionto people with disabilities.
The three people I can think ofnow in KwaZulu-Natal also got
senior positions in the policeand also in the area of equity
(41:22):
and diversity.
And then also the people inLimpopo.
One of them became a deputycommissioner of his area and I
used him as a co-facilitatorwhenever I had to do work in
Limpopo.
Same with the police in PortElizabeth.
(41:43):
The woman who was there, karenSkierpers, also became
responsible for the diversity inall of that police department
in the Eastern Cape, karenSkierpers, that I continue to
also use as a co-facilitator.
So I really like this idea thatVal has been pushing for a
(42:04):
while, that we get these folkstogether and together decide
what's the next step for us.
Because you mentioned my focuson transformational leadership,
because there was never a focuson developing leadership in
South Africa.
There's a huge need foreverybody who are in leadership
(42:28):
positions really to understandwhat that means.
One, the influence you haveover the followers and your
ability to really changepeople's lives.
And of course, there are such alot of good examples of that,
like the different rectors we'vehad in South Africa, at Western
(42:50):
Cape, at Pentec that Zahnattended.
A lot of those rectors broughtabout great changes on those
campuses.
One guy that I think veryhighly of is a man called Derek
Swartz at the Nelson MandelaUniversity in PE.
That was a BruderbundUniversity.
(43:10):
Madiba personally asked him totake over that university and
they changed the name to theNelson Mandela University and
it's a respected university.
The same for Western Cape.
I mean we called it the BushCollege because it was so much
created by the fascists and thepeople in positions of power.
(43:34):
All spoke about how highly theythought of Hendrik Verwoerd,
and that university is alsobecoming a top-level university
that in some fields areworld-class.
So we've got a lot of examplesof transformation leadership,
(43:55):
but we don't always see it thatway and we don't always think of
leadership in that way.
And you know, I take theposition that all of us who are
in leadership positions willalso have opportunities to be
transformational leaders.
And it's important to know whatthat means.
(44:15):
And I give examples of that.
One is as soon as you getengaged in those conversations,
leave your ego at home, focus onthe other, focus on the issue.
Yeah, so there are specificskills that people can learn
that they would make them moreeffective when they step into
(44:39):
those roles more effective whenthey step into those roles.
Also, to be compassionate Ifyou choose to step into that
role, make sure that you arecompassionate for all the
parties that you are engaging inand that you don't take a side.
As soon as you take a side, oneside won't trust you and you
won't be effective in engagingeffectively.
(45:01):
And then speak about thecooperative model that I think
is such a powerful model.
You asked Felipe about Joe.
So Joe was the person whofacilitated our cooperative
process when we, as Visions,used to have our retreats every
year, and I really appreciatedthat about Visions too, that
(45:24):
every year we had a retreat andat that retreat we had an
opportunity to express ourappreciations for each other and
also to express our resentments, so that we learn to be honest
about that, that we learn to behonest about that, and so you
(45:46):
know, sharing elements of thatcooperative process also a very
valuable tool for us who chooseto step into these
transformational leadershiproles.
Yeah, and you know, I think themost important thing for me is
that visions taught me to livewhat I preach, to live with
integrity, like in myrelationship with women, that I
(46:09):
think visions provides us with away of living with each other
us a way of living with eachother, that we live the values
of equality and mutual respectand all those values that I
(46:30):
think we as leaders in SouthAfrica desperately need, and to
also experience the benefits ofthat.
I think, like the quality ofour relationships with each
other in visions was such awonderful lesson for me, just
the closeness of relationships Ihave with men and women and
(46:53):
never feeling competitive.
Also, I think we benefited agreat deal from the women being
honest with us.
I remember in the olden days, wewould always expect the women
to bring the jars and theequipment, and so we were often
(47:17):
confronted about that.
Another thing the women oftenconfronted us about was sleeping
in workshops.
They would always point outthat no women have ever slept in
a workshop, and meanwhile,apparently a few of us nodded
off Really and there was anelement of entitlement in that.
(47:43):
Well, and also the fact thatyou have such strong women in
leadership roles and bishops.
I think it's also been veryhelpful.
Yeah, so now the Visions model.
You know it's been a greatlearning school for me and I
(48:04):
learned such a lot of tools, butalso it contributed to my own
development, and continue to dothat, because I think it also
taught me that you always haveto learn, taught me that you
always have to learn, and youknow you're always confronted
(48:24):
with elements of yourself thatyou are in a position to change
and make decisions about tochange.
So, yeah, I'm you know I'mreally looking the way that you
energize particularly Cecil,because Cecil can't wait to do
(48:49):
more.
Visions work.
Yeah, yeah, so great.
So thank you for this too.
It's good to talk and to thinkabout this.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (48:58):
For sure.
I have been looking forward tothis interview, so I'm very glad
that we've made the time.
It's always wonderful to havean excuse to come out to this
beautiful, beautiful place thatyou live and I don't know.
I've just really enjoyedgetting to know you over this
past year, year and a half, andI'm excited now that, with this,
(49:19):
more folks who are in my cohortat Visions, who haven't
necessarily met you, will havean opportunity to get to know
you a little bit.
Dr. Julian Sonn (49:26):
Okay, wonderful as will our community.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (49:28):
Yeah, thank you so much, julian.
Dr. Julian Sonn (49:30):
Okay, you're very welcome.
Dr. Leena Akhtar (49:34):
We are celebrating our 40th anniversary
in Boston on September 27th2024.
Anniversary in Boston onSeptember 27th 2024.
And we have a very excitinglineup of guests of honor,
including Renee Myers, gloriaSteinem and the Reverend Dr
William J Barber.
If you're interested inattending or sponsoring, there's
a link to event information inthe show notes.
I very much hope we'll see youthere.
In addition to our work inorganizations, visions offers a
(49:58):
host of public-facing workshops,ranging from our four-day Pace
One workshop to shorterofferings like Fundamentals of
Inclusivity, to our monthly Paywhat you Can, guidelines for
Effective Cross-CulturalDialogue, which is a great
75-minute introduction to how wework and our approach.
I warmly invite you to attend.
Thank you so much for listening.
(50:19):
Until next time.
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