April 10, 2025 • 61 mins
On this week’s episode, Israel Policy Forum Policy Advisor and Tel Aviv-based journalist Neri Zilber hosts Tal Shalev, political correspondent at Walla News. They discuss Benjamin Netanyahu's rather unsuccessful meeting with Donald Trump in Washington this week, the Israeli government's war against the so-called “deep state,” the Qatargate scandal, the Netanyahu government’s priorities after Passover, the political fortunes of Yair Golan and Naftali Bennett, and more.
Follow us on Instagram, Twitter/X, and Bluesky, and subscribe to our email list here.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Neri (00:04):
Shalom and welcome to the Israel Policy Pod.
I'm Neri Zilber, a journalistbased in Tel Aviv and a policy
advisor to Israel Policy ForumChag.
Sameach everyone and happyalmost Passover and Easter.
With the holidays nearly uponus, I thought it would be a good
time to touch base with ourdear friend Tal Shalev, the
chief political correspondentfor Walla News.
(00:25):
She and I broke down the recentNetanyahu-Trump summit meeting
in Washington this week, thewhole deep state conspiracy
issue here in Israel, just to beclear, the Qatar Gate
investigation, and we ended witha political check-in on both
the state of the Netanyahucoalition and the opposition.
This was, as always, awide-ranging and free-flowing
(00:48):
conversation, so let's get TalShalev Hi Tal, welcome back to
the podcast.
Tal (00:56):
Hi Neri, how are you?
Neri (00:58):
I'm doing okay, tal, but you know as well as I do that
Passover is just a few days away.
Just for the record, we'rerecording this on Wednesday
afternoon, tel Aviv time.
So really just a few more daysand then the holidays, as
they're called here, will beupon us.
How are you feeling?
How are you doing before theChagim?
Any big plans for next week?
Tal (01:17):
Well, you know, never a dull moment.
So let's wait and see if theholidays are real holidays or as
part of the whole chaossurrounding us or swifting us,
(01:48):
what is supposed to be peacefuland calm, khol Am know, a
holiday like Passover, which isall about freedom, right?
So a constant tension betweenyou know, the need to lead a
normal life and to you know,breathe and do things that are
outside of day-to-day politics,and between the fact that you
know we're in a very abnormalsituation.
(02:09):
So that's a constant tensionwhich I think we'll be dealing
with next week as well.
Neri (02:16):
Definitely a constant tension every day for the past
18 months, and some would sayeven before the past 18 months,
even before the war.
But that's another story.
But you're right, I wasthinking back to last Pesach
last year and there were barelyany flights.
The war was really still infull swing, unlike now, which is
(02:38):
a very different war, and itseemed like the whole country
kind of came together.
There's a much stronger senseof unity.
Last year, you know, there wasan empty chair next to the table
for the hostages, a lot ofyellow, at least in my family's
Passover Seder politicized.
(03:07):
Even the hostage issueshouldn't be political at all.
That was what I was thinking ofin terms of the contrast
between this year and last year,that the politics have actually
come back in a really bad way.
But I was going to ask Tal,what do you know that I don't
about Holamued?
It's supposed to be a time ofno politics.
I think a lot of thepoliticians are going to be
flying away on vacation.
What kind of news are youexpecting next week?
Tal (03:28):
I wish, I wish.
I mean, I'm just saying this issuch a crazy.
We live in such crazy times.
I don't know about anythingspecific, I'm just saying, as I
know the tempo of my work, I'llbe grateful if all of the
politicians take a month away, amonth.
They can take a month vacation.
Neri (03:48):
Right.
Tal (03:50):
Unfortunately, we live under, you know, the Bibi regime
, and the Bibi regime is veryhectic and finds it very hard to
lay down.
It's true that this is anextremely religious government
and the Knesset is on vacation,on its spring recess, and even
this week you can start feelinghow like the country is slowly,
(04:10):
slowly, you know, slowing downahead of the holidays.
But you know I'm just preparingmyself for the worst.
Neri (04:17):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a good way to toapproach our, our line of work,
although I will be telling mybosses not here that everything
will be completely, completelyquiet.
Everyone's off.
There won't be any news, let'shope for the best.
Tal (04:29):
Fingers crossed, I'm rooting for you.
Neri (04:31):
Yeah, I'm rooting for me too.
I'm looking forward to the hug.
But let's get down to businessand Netanyahu.
He was in the White House a fewdays ago for another summit
meeting with Donald Trump, theirsecond in two months.
This one, I dare say, was asurprise summit.
It wasn't planned.
And then I was, of course, inHungary late last week and this
(04:55):
past weekend, and then he wascalled to Washington to talk
mostly about tariffs and Iran,but also a little bit about Gaza
and Turkey.
So first question to you, talyou're a veteran of these
diplomatic trips.
What did you make of thisquickie one?
It wasn't the best White Housevisit for Bibi, was it?
Tal (05:13):
To say the least.
I would probably rate itamongst you know his top five
bad visits to the White House,at least the way you know, at
least from what we know now andyou know from what was televised
that not very short encounterin the Oval Office.
Netanyahu did not evolve fromthis meeting strengthened or
(05:36):
bolstered, as he has used hismeetings with President Trump in
the past.
So you know the way it wastelevised here.
Netanyahu did not emerge asKing Bibi or King America.
On the contrary, I think he wasquite ambushed there by the
president with his comment aboutthe direct talks with Iran,
(05:59):
even if it was coordinated inadvance and Netanyahu wasn't
caught in the dart.
This was Netanyahu's thing, youknow this is to talk about.
I mean, just like the irony ofthinking how Netanyahu would
react if President Obama orPresident Biden would be sitting
next to him in the Oval Officeand announcing he's opening
(06:21):
direct talks with Iran.
And you know Netanyahu's baby,and one that he has been very
much nourishing in the past fewmonths, is an Israeli attack on
the Iranian nuclear program, butalso the comments about Turkey
and Erdogan, which you know arecontrary to statements that
(06:42):
Netanyahu and senior Israeliofficials have been making about
the Turkish influence in thepost-Assad Syria In that
question.
In that response, presidentTrump basically told Netanyahu
well, you got to be reasonable.
So I think that, at large, youknow, one of the reasons that
Netanyahu, you know, cherisheshis White House visits is
(07:05):
because of the image it impactsin Israel, the way it televised
in Israel.
So this is one of the you know,I can't remember a visit which
was so humiliating for him, atleast on the outside.
Of course there might beunderstandings on the inside
that we do not know about, butat least you know there's one
(07:26):
good thing about President Trumpbeing so eccentric that you
know the rifts are just out inthe open.
There's no daylight thatNetanyahu will not necessarily
like.
And even the excuse thatNetanyahu gave, the main excuse,
which was the tariffs eventhere, and even though Netanyahu
(07:50):
offered to succumb, basicallysuccumb to President Trump and
remove all tariffs here inIsrael and pay back I don't know
what he said there $4 billion.
Even on that issue, which waspresented as the primary goal of
the trip, netanyahu didn't comehome with any achievement at
all.
Neri (08:10):
That's right.
It was quite a scene, thathour-long Oval Office,
essentially a press conference.
So they were sitting theretaking questions from a very
rowdy, well Israeli diplomaticpress and then also the White
House press.
Tal (08:24):
Yeah, well, I just want to mention that.
You know there was supposedthere was a real press
conference scheduled that wassupposed to take place after the
meeting, in which I thinkquestions would have been
distributed in a more even wayand Netanyahu would probably get
questions, more questions aboutwhat happens, what's happening
(08:46):
in Israel while he's abroad.
These are the, you know, theattempt to sack the head of the
Shimbad Security Service andother issues that are burning
here today, and I think I don'tknow, but I think Netanyahu was
the one who wanted to ditch thatkind of traditional press
conference and, by you know,having the press conference in
(09:07):
the Oval Office, it's totally,it was totally President Trump's
show and Netanyahu, at leastthe way I perceived it, was
basically just a status.
Neri (09:17):
Yeah, in English, basically an extra, an extra in
Trump's, trump's movie or play.
That's a really interestingtheory.
I hadn't actually thought aboutthat.
So he wanted it more to befocused on Trump's issues and
less the Israeli press askinghim.
Tal (09:33):
Well, yes, you know, netanyahu hasn't given a press
conference in Israel in I don'tknow over at least over half a
year.
So it just continues the trendright.
Neri (09:44):
He doesn't want answers journalists, but also for the
(10:07):
public to actually hold theirleader to account.
But I was going to say it wasinteresting.
I don't think I've ever seenNetanyahu sit quietly without
saying anything for so long in aroom.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I mean really, and like you said, even on the Iran
issue.
Neri (10:20):
if President Obama or President Biden or anyone else
other than Trump had sat thereand said, oh yeah, we're going
to negotiate a deal with Iran, Ibet we would have gotten a
little bit more from BibiNetanyahu pushing back against
that idea.
But obviously Trump, like yousaid, is eccentric that's a nice
word for it.
And also the Turkey issue.
(10:41):
I was looking at Netanyahu'sbody language and face when
Trump answered that question.
He's like you know they're both, they're both my friends, and
you know he's looking at Bibi.
He's like yeah, you need to bereasonable.
It's like OK, that's not.
The messaging, like you said,coming out of the Netanyahu
government about Turkey in Syriaremains to be seen if Trump can
can mediate that issue, and Imean correct me if I'm wrong.
(11:06):
The hostage issue in Gaza ingeneral, almost both leaders
basically just kind of skippedover it.
It was very general responses,nothing really concrete, right?
Tal (11:17):
Yes, so I did notice President Trump's statement that
he hopes that the war will beover in a short matter of time.
I don't remember the exact,exact verb, but he did, let's
say at least he did not embracewith full power the Israeli
campaign and preparations for afull scale attack on Gaza.
(11:41):
He was more about we're stilltrying to end it Now.
I think the most evident thingfor me between the first press
conference, or the firstNetanyahu-Trump summit, and the
second Netanyahu-Trump summit iswhere the president's attention
is.
So in the first summit it wasall about the hostages and the
(12:02):
Gaza Riviera.
In the second summit he was allabout mainly about Iran and the
tariffs.
And that's just to show, a thepresident's attention span.
B how much you know credibilitywe should give to all of these
statements.
But C it all and you know.
It just shows that you know theenthusiasm that the
(12:23):
administration had when it firstentered office in June, which
was in January, which was a bigsource of hope for the Israeli
hostages families.
Well, you don't see thatanymore.
Steve Witkoff has now beenappointed to, you know, lead the
negotiations with Iran, withIran.
(12:46):
So you're not doing the samething at the same time, unless I
don't know about some secretplan by Witkoff to enable the
release of the hostages throughnegotiations about the Iranian
nuclear program, but I think itwas quite striking how that was
on the top of the president'sagenda when he entered office.
And here we are I don't knowwhat is it three months or four
(13:12):
months later and he's alreadymoved on and he passed through
Russia and Ukraine in the middleright.
So I think that was verystriking for me.
It's just not on the top of hisagenda.
Neri (13:18):
Right, steve Witkoff, trump's special envoy,
originally to the Middle Eastand primarily Gaza.
Then Witkoff was Well,apparently to the Middle East
and primarily.
Tal (13:26):
Gaza, then Witkoff was Well apparently to everywhere right.
Neri (13:29):
Well, that's exactly it.
Then he was tasked withbringing peace to Ukraine and
the Ukraine-Russia war, and nowWitkoff is going to Oman, likely
on Saturday, to negotiate withthe Iranians.
Each one of these global criseswould be a massive lift for any
diplomat.
To try to do all three at thesame time, that's a lot.
So, like you said, it's anissue of attention and bandwidth
(13:52):
.
Tal (13:53):
You know, good luck, right, I'm not, I'm all for
negotiations instead of war.
But I just think that you know,also in Israel, right,
netanyahu kind of dissolved thenegotiation team as part of his
efforts to undermine the Stimbetsecurity service.
He kind of pushed out the headof the Mossad and he pushed out
(14:15):
the head of the Stimbet and heassigned, you know, the file of
the hostage negotiations to RonDermer and Dermer, just like
Witkoff, is involved in I don'tknow 10 other big burning issues
.
And in that respect I think thehostages are being neglected
and their families are beingneglected.
(14:36):
And I feel, you know, on thepersonal level, to connect where
we started our conversation,it's like I feel very much
guilty of normalizing.
You know, not me personally,but I think that this is a
process of normalizing anabnormal situation.
Neri (14:54):
Very abnormal situation and I think the lack of
attention and pressure by theTrump administration on the
hostage issue, but really theGaza issue.
My conclusion is that they'rebacking the Netanyahu
government's position, which iswe're going to resume the war
and try to quote, unquote, applypressure on Hamas to get Hamas
(15:16):
to release hostages, without anycommitment by Israel to end the
war.
Tal (15:23):
Unless there's something that we don't know right.
It was very interesting to seethat a few, you know, just a
short while before the NetanyahuTrump summit, there was a phone
call between French PresidentMacron, who was in Egypt with
President Sisi and King Abdullah.
There is an effort to try andfind a way out of the war and of
(15:44):
course, we have to wait.
I mean, you know, PresidentTrump does have a dream of
breaking some kind of deal withSaudi Arabia, so I just think we
have.
Apparently we have to wait forthe White House attention span
to go back there.
Neri (16:00):
Yeah, I mean you know, like you said, it changes day by
day.
Yeah, I mean you know, like yousaid, it changes day by day.
So tomorrow it might be frontand center and then by Friday
it'll be gone.
Tal (16:10):
Exactly.
But remember, the first timeNetanyahu was in the White House
, the president said he would begoing to Saudi Arabia within
weeks and we've been hearingabout his trip to Saudi Arabia
within weeks.
But here the visit is notcompleted, you know, is not
happening yet.
So my, you know it might bewishful thinking, but my hope is
(16:33):
that ahead of his visit toSaudi Arabia, the president will
want to have some achievementin the Middle East and that
could be part of a big deal ofending the war.
Neri (16:41):
Very interesting theory.
I think he's supposed to be inSaudi Arabia next month, in May
at some point.
Maybe I'll believe it when Isee it frankly, I think there's
less going on than peopleimagine.
Obviously there's still thingsgoing on behind the scenes.
I don't want to make it seemlike there's no diplomacy
(17:01):
happening, but all these variousreports and leaks I take with a
grain of salt.
But I've been wrong before, soI'm willing to be wrong again,
especially on this issue andespecially to get the hostages
back.
And just a final point on theTrump baby summit the reason he
was there, the tariffs I thinkthat was useful for both parties
(17:21):
.
Tariffs I think that was usefulfor both parties.
Right?
Trump got the first foreignleader to DC, to the White House
, to quote unquote negotiateover removing the tariffs.
Bibi was very happy to be thefirst foreign leader to be there
and talk about all the otherissues on the agenda.
But in terms of brass, tacksand Tachlis, I think that Neahu
(17:42):
said afterwards yeah, we'regoing to work to close or
eliminate the trade deficitbetween the US and Israel.
Now I work for aquasi-financial newspaper called
the Financial Times.
We looked into this.
It's nearly impossible.
Israel doesn't really importall that much from America and
it exports to America certainthings and that's the reason why
there's a deficit.
(18:02):
And even before this governmentin Israel took away all the
tariffs on American imports.
It was already, I think, 95 or99% gone for years, so I'm not
quite sure what Netanyahu can doto appease Trump on the tariff
issue.
Tal (18:22):
Another thing that striked me watching that meeting that
probably didn't get enoughattention here in Israel was
that statement by Trump when hetold Netanyahu we're already
giving Israel $4 billion a yearand, of course, the focus needs
to be on the next MOU, which,you know.
Under any other administrationI would say it shouldn't be a
(18:44):
problem, but since thisadministration is in the midst
of, you know, a trade war withother countries and is
unconventional, then I thinkIsrael should be looking much
more seriously to start and openthe next MOU negotiations
because, given, you know, someof Trump's statements, it
(19:05):
doesn't seem like he necessarilywill give us everything that we
got from the Obamaadministration and, if so, he
will probably ask for things inexchange, because he is a
dealmaker.
Neri (19:16):
That's a great point, tal, and I think, out of anything
that should worry the Israeli Imean public, but definitely the
Israeli government more thananything, the fact that Trump is
, a definitely transactional andB is definitely aware of the
fact that the US provides what$3.8 billion a year in defense
(19:37):
aid to Israel as part of thismemorandum of understanding.
Basically, you know theUS-Israel defense deal, defense
pact, whatever you want to callit, understanding.
Basically, you know theUS-Israel defense deal, defense
pact, whatever you want to callit, and it expires in 2028.
And it takes a long time tonegotiate these things and it's
not all clear to me, and itshouldn't be a given to anyone
here in Israel, that Trump willre-up and provide the same level
(20:01):
of military support to Israel.
Like you said what do we get outof it?
We already give you $4 billion,so you need to give us
something.
Yeah, that could be a very rudeawakening for Israelis and for
this Israeli prime minister.
But moving right along, tal onething Netanyahu and Trump
likely agreed on was this wholeidea, concept, conspiracy of
(20:25):
deep states.
You probably were watching, asI was.
Yesterday, tuesday, at theSupreme Court in Jerusalem, a
hearing took place over whetherthe government can or cannot
fire Rodenbar, as you said, thehead of the Shin Bet, the
domestic intelligence agency.
The judges in the case basicallypunted and gave both sides a
few more weeks to find acompromise on this very
(20:47):
important issue of you knowwho's going to be running this
internal security agency.
Will Netanyahu be able toappoint someone, maybe more to
his liking?
And it's not clear, and remainsto be seen, whether the
government will actually adhereto the ruling, meaning that they
can't replace Barr before April20th.
So a few more weeks to findthis compromise.
(21:07):
But I think the larger point isthat Netanyahu is now very
clearly in open warfare with theShin Bet, after he's already
gone after the courts, theattorney general, the police,
the army, the media I'm sure I'mmissing something or someone,
but basically all theinstitutions of state here, and
calling it a deep stateconspiracy against him and his
government.
We've seen this movie before inother places, but knowing what
(21:31):
you know about Netanyahu, howfar do you think he will take
all of this in terms of hisbattle against what he calls a
deep state here?
Tal (21:40):
Well, first of all, I think he's taken it quite far.
So up until now, right, he'sthe first prime minister to be
convicted in a criminal courtNot convicted, indicted,
indicted, of course, in acriminal court.
And since 2017, when theinvestigation started, 2016,
(22:00):
2017, he has been basicallywaging a war against the state,
and you can include anything,everything that has happened to
us inside that, if it's theattacks against the police, and
then the justice ministry andthe five election campaigns and
the judicial overhaul which hisgovernment is promoting.
(22:21):
So I think the deep state isbasically, you know, a good
slogan for something thatNetanyahu has been doing for
many, many years, even before heknew it was called the deep
state, and he's just moved from.
You know, after the judicialoverhaul, he's basically now in
the midst of a security overhauland, of course, he is inspired
(22:44):
by President Trump and Elon Musk, whom he meets regularly during
his Washington visits, and whenhe came back from his first
Washington visit last inFebruary, he did fuel his
attempts to sack both Ronen Baal, the Shindad Security Service
head, and Ghaliba Ravmiyar, theattorney general.
(23:05):
So far, it seems that theSupreme Court or at least on the
case of Wonen Bar, the SupremeCourt is protecting, or at least
trying to protect, wonen Bar.
This is quite a, you know,peculiar situation, I have to
admit.
You know there are dozens ofthousands of Israelis who have
(23:28):
protested in the streets in thename of democracy and the name
of the head of the secretservice, onenbal, which is quite
a peculiar situation in whichonly Netanyahu could have
created, as I said, an abnormalsituation.
But Netanyahu has been wantingto fire Wonenbao basically since
the summer as part of a bigplan to replace all of the top
(23:48):
security at Cologne and have amuch more loyal and agreeable
top security brass.
Should, or you might, or youcould, or you should, write a
book about Netanyahu'srelationships with the head of
(24:08):
the security services, whetherit's the army or the Shin Bet or
the Mossad, specifically theShin Bet.
Netanyahu has a very badhistory with Shin Bet heads.
Almost all of them who haveserved under Netanyahu have came
out against him in the past fewyears in one way or another and
warned that he is a danger todemocracy.
Neri (24:26):
On that point I have to interject.
It's not just the Shin Betchiefs, it's, I think, literally
every IDF chief of staff goingback to the 90s has come out
against him.
Tal (24:35):
True, it's also the defense ministers.
There's no defense minister.
Neri (24:39):
And most of the Mossad chiefs it's literally every
security chief going backprobably 30 years have come out
and said, yeah, this guy is adanger to well Israeli democracy
in the country.
Even the ones like Bogia Alon,who was IDF chief of staff, and
Yoav Galant, who wasn't chief ofstaff but a senior general and
(25:01):
then defense minister obviouslyBoth of them are now his biggest
critics and they were in theLikud.
So I don't think there's oneexception.
Tal (25:10):
There are some exceptions in the Mossad, I think Yossi
Cohen.
Neri (25:13):
Give it time.
Tal (25:15):
It's part of an exception, perhaps the current Mossad chief
, but yes, there's basicallyalmost no exception.
And some of these former ShinBet chiefs are now coming out
and explaining exactly why theysay he's giving the explanations
, why they think he's a dangerto democracy, and that is
(25:42):
because Netanyahu has no limitsand has no borders and has asked
them over the years to dothings that are for his
political and personal benefitand not and have nothing to do
with security.
Even just you know the mostsimple example right,
netanyahu's constant it's notNetanyahu himself, it's
Netanyahu's family constantdemands, growing demands from
(26:03):
the Shin Bet security service,just to you know, to secure them
and their households.
And you know, you have YairNetanyahu, his eldest son, in
Miami with three Shin Betbodyguards and at the same time,
he is spreading conspiracytheories against the Shin Bet
who didn't wake up his father onthe 7th of October.
(26:26):
So, basically, this is aculmination.
If this, you know, this event orthis fiasco with Ronenba is a
culmination of so many innerbattles that Netanyahu has been
waging against the Shin Bet inthe past few years.
And again, he just has noborders, he has no limits
(26:51):
anymore.
So, as part of his currentbattle against Ronenbal.
He has been, you know, leakingconfidential letters written by
Ronenbal something that hasnever happened.
You know, I don't rememberanything like it the prime
minister leaking personalcorrespondence with the head of
the Shinbara security service,and he has been spreading
(27:13):
conspiracy theories, trying to,you know, brush off the Qatar
Gate scandal and withwhataboutism and kind of staying
Ronen Bar.
And of course, the main thingthat he's trying to do is that
he's trying to portray Ronen Barand not only Ronen Bar, also
Herzliya Levy and the army, asyou know, responsible for the
7th of October, and to shed allresponsibility himself.
(27:35):
So all of this is like aperfect storm uh happening right
now, uh, in igreo, and ofcourse, you have the supreme
court involved and embroiled now, and that brings in the other
storm, which is, you know,netanyahu's government's
relentless attempt to weaken theSupreme Court and threaten, you
(27:57):
know, undermine its authorityand undermine its decisions.
So we really are in the midstof, I think, one of the biggest
internal storms that we've seenin Israel, probably, you know,
just like before the 7th ofOctober, during the judicial
overhaul.
And this is all happening, ofcourse, when Netanyahu plans to
(28:19):
send the army, or at least hasplans to send the army for
another war, while you know,israel is once again shattered
down or being challengedinternally by these internal
fights and divisions.
Neri (28:36):
This is why I said, in a weird way, last Passover was as
difficult as it was and it wasdifficult, I don't want to
sugarcoat.
It was more uplifting andunifying, just in terms of the
overall vibe here in Israel,than this Passover to the
overall vibe here in Israel,than this Passover, which so you
know my test, my sad test, isactually the Yom Ha'atzmaut,
(29:01):
which will be next month, in amonth by now.
Tal (29:03):
Independence.
Day Less than a month from here, the Independence Day and, of
course, the day before which isthe Memorial Day for the
bereaved soldiers, which wasextremely difficult in 2023,
(29:25):
before the war, in the midst ofthe judicial overhaul.
It was extremely difficult in2024, with hundreds of know.
The scenes yesterday in theSupreme Court, which were quite
unbelievable, of shouting in theSupreme Court, are going to
probably repeat, might repeatthemselves and, you know, in
some of the same cemeteries, andthese are very, you know,
(29:48):
heartbreaking days for Israelisociety and consciousness.
Neri (29:57):
It is, it is, but, like you said, I think this year will
be even more difficult, notonly because another year of war
has passed, but because theconsensus that we had last year
has been broken deliberately.
So and Tal, you may notremember this, but I do Back in
2023, I was writing an article Iforget for who about the
judicial overhaul and the techprotests and the economic
(30:20):
protests and the reservistsrefusing to report for duty, and
basically everything waslooking like it was heading off
a cliff here and you told me youposed it as a question.
It's like you know that Yahoo,essentially, is destroying
everything he's built over threedecades, more or less, you know
(30:42):
, at the top of this countryrunning this country, and there
was no clear answer as to why.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It just was, for all the reasons we just discussed,
israel relations and regionaldiplomacy among policymakers and
community leaders, we promotepolicy measures endorsed by
credible security experts,develop analysis and commentary
and convene programs that engageand educate leaders across the
political, denominational andgenerational spectrums.
Our Young ProfessionalsInitiative, ipf-ateed, works to
elevate the discourse amongnext-generation leaders by
(31:30):
building community andfacilitating engaging programs
related to Israeli-Palestinianaffairs.
To learn more about our work,visit us online at
israelpolicyforumorg and followus on social media.
If you rely on Israel PolicyForum for credible and nuanced
analysis, please make atax-deductible gift today at
ipfli slash supportthepod or atthe support the show link in the
(31:51):
show notes.
Tal (31:52):
So I actually have the answer now.
Neri (31:54):
Okay.
Tal (31:55):
Why he's doing it for his own political and personal
survival, just as I mean, Ithink, in many ways, you know,
the post-7th of October.
Netanyahu is a ruthless andreckless leader who will and
we've seen it in so manyexamples if it's, you know, the
(32:16):
budget, the very fat budget,which mainly is fat for his
sectorial partners to keep hiscoalition together, and the way
that he has, you know, turnedthe hostages issue into a
political issue, and the way heis prolonging the war in order
(32:37):
to keep his coalition together.
So I think I understand whynathaniel is willing to um today
.
I understand why nathaniel iswilling to take, you know, tear
down everything that is good inthis country's fabric, because
it's what keeps him in power.
Neri (32:55):
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the most direct and
obvious answer.
It just I don't know.
It seems insane to want to burnthis place down so you can rule
over the ashes, to borrow aquote from Game of Thrones.
By the way, we saw yesterday Ikind of alluded to this the
(33:15):
scenes at the Supreme Court forthe Ronan Barr hearing.
I'm pretty sure Netanyahu sentin supporters and, in some cases
, yes, bereaved families,families of the fallen, to go in
and yell at the judges, to yellat the former Shin Bet chief
and the former Mossad chief andthe former police commissioner
who showed up to the hearing andthey were yelling at them.
(33:37):
And, by the way, the judges, youknow you're responsible for
October 7th.
You're responsible as if therewas no prime minister here on
October 7th 2023.
You know, it all seemed very,very orchestrated.
And yet another brick in thewall here, you know, going after
(34:10):
institutions of the state Talwe have to get into Qatargate,
because I get asked about hismain political advisor and Elie
Feldstein, bibi's formermilitary spokesperson, by the
way, after October 7th 2023, andallegations that they received
money from Qatar to allegedlylobby on their behalf or improve
(34:31):
their image in Israel as theywere working in the prime
minister's office.
This is very important.
They were working in the primeminister's office.
Tal (34:38):
And again one of them.
One of them we know we we onlyknow at this point about Elie
Selstein getting money while hewas working in the prime
minister's office.
Neri (34:50):
Correct Right.
They're investigating whetherUri actually received money, and
that's that needs.
That needs to be shown.
But I guess, to start off withthis, when your family or
friends come to you, talyn, andask okay, what is this Qatargate
scandal?
How do you explain it to themso that they understand?
Tal (35:07):
it.
I have to say that I think thatQatargate, the prime minister's
office, is handled and managedtoday how it does not keep
(35:48):
confidentiality rules at all andit does not succumb to security
considerations at all.
And it's more, like we say inHebrew, which is a neighborhood.
It's more like a hood than theplace where the most important
decisions in the country aresupposed to be made.
Netanyahu has been with him formany years and perhaps other
advisors who are not directemployees of the prime
(36:16):
minister's office, but stillthey are part of the prime
minister's entourage and walkdaily into the office.
So the issue is Eddie Feldstein, who was Netanyahu's
spokesperson, even though hedidn't pass a security clearance
, and why was he still there andhow was he paid and how was
(36:38):
this approved?
And the issue is if Yonatan Uliis a private contractor of
Netanyahu, then how is itpossible that he can also get,
perhaps, or at least allegedlybe, involved with other
countries?
And the issue of Qatar itself Ithink it's a bit more
complicated.
(36:58):
A because Qatar is complicated.
It's not just an enemy country,it's not even defined by law as
an enemy country, but it's alsoa country who has an extremely
complex relationship with Israeland with the whole world and
Israel as a country has beenplaying a double game with Qatar
(37:19):
under Netanyahu for many, manyyears and I'm not sure that they
have necessarily has aconnection right.
But there are many, manyquestions in the air about the
whole policy that Netanyahudecided to move with the Qatari
payments to Gaza.
Now we know, you and I know,neri, that the reason there were
(37:40):
Qatari payments to Gaza, or thereason they were enhanced, was
because Netanyahu was keen onweakening the Palestinian
Authority and he had to find away to keep Gaza from, you know,
falling apart or bursting whenthe Palestinian authorities
stopped paying its officialsinside Gaza.
(38:02):
So in my opinion, there are alot of things embroiled in
Qatargate.
But the big question if we putaside the question of the
concept and then about thepolicy regarding Qatar, which is
not a criminal question, it isa question.
It might be a question for anational inquiry committee which
Netanyahu refuses to establish,but I'm not sure it has any
(38:33):
connection with the criminaldocuments that some of them
allegedly show that Netanyahuhimself was paid dozens of
billions of dollars by theQatari.
We don't know if thesedocuments are real.
They haven't been authenticated.
Neri (38:48):
I don't believe it personally.
Tal (38:51):
Again, I don't know if you're there, but definitely
there are many, many points thatare unconnected and I'm not
sure that they will be connected, but at least in the Israeli
public conscience they arecurrently being connected all
the time.
You know it's not clear wherethis investigation is leading.
(39:12):
And B because Netanyahu willnot have a national inquiry or
he won't even answer questionsabout Qatar.
He'll only say on camera thatQatar is a complicated country,
even though he himself hadanti-Qatari messages during the
war.
So you know I've been going.
Sometimes Netanyahu also had theinterest.
(39:33):
I've been going.
Sometimes Netanyahu also hadthe interest.
Netanyahu had the interest ofstrengthening Qatar sometimes,
and sometimes he had an interestin weakening Qatar.
But at large, I think it's partof the same thing that we
talked about earlier.
It's the fact that Netanyahuhas no moral limits.
Netanyahu and his surroundingshave no more moral limits and
the most importantdecision-making security.
(39:55):
Decision-making is notnecessarily made on security
reasons, but rather on smallpolitical interests, and I think
that's the essence of the partyaides were kind of double
(40:17):
dipping and benefiting on theside from clients like Qatar as
they were advising the primeminister.
Neri (40:19):
And what was it?
Last week Netanyahu said well,jonathan Urych you know he's a
political advisor in the Likudparty trying to make it seem
like Urych wasn't an advisor inthe prime minister's office.
I think it's very clear legallythat he is a government
employee.
Feldstein was working in theprime minister's office.
How Feldstein was getting paid,I think is of critical
(40:40):
importance in this case.
Whether Ulrich or someone elsein the prime minister's office
set up the payment from Qatarvia an American lobbyist so that
it would reach Feldstein.
All of that still remains to beseen.
And, yes, look, if it's shown,if there's proof that Ulrich or
(41:04):
again someone else arranged thispayment to circumvent whatever
government ethics rules were inplace and got qatar to pay
feldstein, I mean that's, that'sunbelievable I think, letting
us leaving aside the question ofwhether uli and maybe someone
else, uh, were getting paid byqatar for for pr purposes, as
(41:28):
they were working for the primeminister.
Tal (41:29):
It's unbelievable, even without you know, even just just
from what we know, it'sunbelievable, even without you
know, even just just from whatwe know, it's unbelievable that
Eddie Feldstein, while he wasworking in the prime minister's
office whether he was gettingmoney or not, or who was paying
him he was physically workingthere.
It's unbelievable that, at thesame time, he would help Qatar
(41:50):
spread its messages.
And I dare to you know, wedon't know what will come out of
this Pandora box because this,all you know, the Qatar gate and
this is also worth reminding is, you know, came out of the
Pandora box of a different ofthe previous Feldstein affair.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Scandal yeah.
Tal (42:11):
Yeah, scandal in which Feldstein has already been
indicted in court and Ullrich isalso very strongly involved,
which has to do with thatattempt, the leak to the build
about the alleged Hamas strategymemo.
Neri (42:26):
That's exactly right.
So this I dare say again Ithink it's kind of common sense
that the Qatargate scandal cameout of this prior scandal from
last fall where Feldstein, alongwith someone inside the
military, stole classifieddocuments, leaked it to the
prime minister's advisors, whothen gave it to the German
(42:50):
newspaper the Bild to get it outin the kind of the bloodstream
of the international media inorder to undermine the movement
here, to get the hostages back,to kind of solidify the
arguments by Netanyahu and hiscamp that Hamas was essentially
Hamas was not willing to releasehostages, that it may even be
(43:12):
trying to smuggle hostagesacross the Philadelphia corridor
into Egypt, and in that senseit defended and upheld
Netanyahu's argument that Israelcouldn't leave the Philadelphia
corridor.
Again we're getting into theweeds.
But there was a previousscandal involving classified
materials leaks and basicallyinfluence operations by
(43:35):
allegedly the prime minister'soffice against the Israeli
public.
Tal (43:40):
Yeah.
Neri (43:42):
Yeah, like we said, it's complicated, but I think we did,
hopefully a reasonable jobtrying to explain the broad
strokes of it, and remains to beseen what can be proven and
what can't be proven.
Before we finish up Tal, let'sdo a little bit of a political
check-in ahead of Passover,spring break.
Let's start with the government, with the Netanyahu coalition.
(44:03):
A few weeks ago, they veryeasily passed a budget that was
big for them and likely givesthem another year in power.
Itamar Ben-Gur even came backfrom exile from Borges into the
coalition after he left thegovernment over the Gaza
ceasefire deal back in lateJanuary.
So the coalition is now back tofull strength.
(44:24):
What do you expect theirpriorities to be for the summer
session?
Is it the whole issue of theultra-Orthodox military
conscription issue?
Is it the judicial overhaul?
I mean, what do you expect fromthe coalition in the next
couple of months?
Tal (44:38):
So the first and foremost issue on the coalition's table
is, of course, the conscriptioncrisis.
Netanyahu basically has beenpromising the ultra-Orthodox
parties over two and a halfalmost two years and a half that
he's going to pass aconscription bill.
This was one of theirconditions, their prime
(44:59):
conditions, of joining thegovernment.
They were supposed, accordingto their coalition agreements,
this bill was supposed to bepassed and approved before the
first budget and since thenNetanyahu has passed five
budgets and each time theultra-Orthodox parties, or at
least part of them, come outwith some kind of ultimatum and
eventually they drop theultimatum.
That happened just last month,again the budget, and now
(45:23):
supposedly there's anotherultimatum.
There won't be a bill or anyprogress with the bill within
the next two weeks or until theKnesset comes back from recess
next month.
Then they will vote against thecoalition.
So that's one issue on thetable.
(45:45):
There have been tireless.
Neri (45:47):
Do you believe the alt-orthodox?
Tal (45:49):
I don't believe the alt-orthodox, I mean.
A I don't think there'll be abill because I think that the
minimum that the ultra-Orthodoxare willing to consider doesn't
reach the minimum that the youknow General Israeli public and
most rich people will be willingto accept.
(46:13):
So, a I don't think there willbe a bill and B I mean I might
believe the ultra-Orthodoxparties.
I just think that it's nottheir call.
They just got the budget andthey just got all of the money
that they need to compensate forsome of the money that has been
taken away because of theconscription bill crisis.
(46:35):
And I think that, essentially,the decision whether there will
be an early election or not,well is traditionally has been
Netanyahu's and it'll still stayNetanyahu's decision, and I
don't see Netanyahu willinglygiving up a year in power.
That being said, there's acommon assumption that we are
(46:55):
entering an election yearbecause the next budget, the
2026 budget, has to be approvedby March 2026.
It'll probably be a verydifficult budget, just like this
one, which will have much taxraises and other bad news for
the general public, andNetanyahu will not want to pass
that kind of budget in anelection year.
(47:16):
So the assumption is that youtake the end of March 2026, and
somewhere between now and then,netanyahu will decide to go to
early election, but he will bethe one who will want to choose.
You know the agenda for theelection Now.
It could very well be you know,that he will decide that it's
good for him to go to electionwith a fight with the
(47:38):
ultra-Orthodox party and topresent himself as someone who
was not willing to give in totheir demands vis-a-vis the
conscription bill.
I don't feel that he has enoughor gained enough traction from
the 7th of October for him to goto an early election yet.
That being said, we could besurprised.
(48:00):
Another thing that's going to beon the agenda for the coalition
in the upcoming weeks or afterthe Senate recess will be the
attempt to pass bills that haveto do with the media.
You have the communicationsminister, shlomo Kali, who has
been waiting very patiently orrather impatiently, unpatiently
(48:23):
to pass the bills to A closedown or limit the independence
of the Public BroadcastAssociation.
He also has some plans to closethe army radio.
So that is going to be on thelegislative agenda for and
Netanyahu has embraced his plans, so that's probably going to be
on the legislative agenda forthe next few months, and the
(48:48):
government is also trying tofire the attorney general.
That has nothing necessarily todo with the Knesset, because
it's a complicated legal andbureaucratic process, but the
government is very keen onmoving forward and firing
Ghalibar and Rav Miara, so thatwill probably be at the top of
the agenda for the next fewweeks as well.
Neri (49:11):
Very interesting.
And, by the way, I'd be remissif I didn't remind you and our
listeners, the last time youwere on, you called it exactly
right that Smotrich would notleave the government, would not
leave the coalition, even ifthere was a ceasefire in
Hosserziel in Gaza, therebykeeping Netanyahu's government
intact.
And even Benville, you know heleft, but it was kind of
(49:34):
understood that he was comingback at some point.
So you're right.
You're right back then, tal.
Tal (49:39):
I'm always right.
Nene, I'm always right.
Neri (49:42):
This is why we like to have you on for the real tea,
for the real dirt.
Before we finish up, let'scheck in with the opposition
such as it is, and I wanted tostart with Yerri Golan.
The opposition such as it is,and I wanted to start with Yair
Golan.
He's obviously the formerdeputy IDF chief of staff.
He's a very outspoken critic ofthe government and a hero on
October 7th when he went downsouth by himself to fight and
(50:05):
rescue people.
He also became a hero inanother way last year when he
finally finally merged the twoleft-wing parties, Labour and
Meretz.
When he finally finally mergedthe two left-wing parties,
Labour and Meretz, they're nowcalled the Democrats.
Yair Golan is their leader andthey're rising in the polls.
So what do you think?
Is it for real in terms of theDemocrats and Golan?
Tal (50:24):
Yeah, Well, it's definitely .
You know you can't say anythingfor real because we have no
elections in sight and thingscan change during campaign, but
he is the trend, is definitelythe moment.
He definitely has gainedmomentum and he's the trendiest
one, the trendiest leader todayin the center left.
(50:47):
A because he's the newestleader in the center-left.
I mean he's competing againstYair Lapid and Benny Gantz, who
are both considered, I would say, if I say mildly, failures,
each in their own way, and YairGolan is the only one who hasn't
failed yet.
B because he has a much moreblunt and authentic style.
(51:10):
He's not, as you know, politeand lovable as Benny Gantz and
he is considered much more, Ithink, outspoken than Yair Lapid
, who always suffers from, youknow, this TV anchor image,
while Yair Golan has hismilitary history which kind of
(51:32):
praises him always everywhere hegoes, and the 7th of October
heroism.
So he is definitely very muchrepresentative of the trend and
he's also, I think,representative of the support
he's gaining.
You know the support he'sgaining.
(51:54):
It just goes to show how fed upat least the liberal camp is
with attempts to make peace withthe other side.
Yadon Golan is the mostcombative and, you know,
militant leader among all of theopposition leaders, he's
closest to the protest leaders.
So I think it's real.
But again, we're so far awayfrom elections and I think his
popularity, if we stay in thesame way we are now we see Yael
(52:19):
Golan, yael Lapid and Benny Gantin the center left that'll
probably continue to gainpopularity.
But if there are changes, byany chance, one of them, you
know, one of the changes thatare being being floated in the
air is the, the option that theAydin coat might, you know, head
a party, a joint party thatcould change the dynamics.
(52:42):
So I think it's too early tocall, but definitely if they
send, you know, yair Lapid andBenny Gantz stay the way they
are, then I do think that hewill continue to gain traction.
Neri (52:54):
And I mean I have to ask do you think Gadi Aizenkot is
built or, put another way, hasthe political talent to be the
figurehead of a center-leftmerged party list between Gantz
and Lapid and whoever else?
Do you think Eisenkot can carrythat?
Tal (53:17):
I know there are people who are skeptical about Daddy
Eisenkot, but I think that hehas the ability to appeal to a
very broad audience.
He comes from a differentbackground and he has a
different authenticity.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
He's also very authentic is really.
Tal (53:34):
Yeah, israelis believe him and he's also.
He's not as blunt as y'all andgoland, but he also has a way of
saying things that are muchmore clear-cut than y'all and,
uh, benny guns and about youknow his political and y' his
political and his politicalcapital.
You know it's about advisors andit's about putting the right
(53:56):
people around you and it's aboutwanting.
So does he want to do it?
I'm not sure that you know hewill say that he wants to be
prime minister, but if he isconvinced him leading a party
could make a change.
I think that he is keen onchange and I definitely can see
that something as emergent.
Neri (54:17):
Yeah, there's only the small matter of convincing Benny
Gantz to let his number two andrunning mate be the top leader,
anything's possible in.
Israeli politics, but thatwould be a big surprise.
Tal (54:30):
Again, I think it's too early to see how the Israeli
political I mean Israelis lovepolls, but they really don't
have any meaning right now.
Neri (54:40):
Yeah, I mean, on the issue of polls and this will be my
final question Tal NaftaliBennett, the former prime
minister.
He took a break from politicsback in 2022 after his coalition
fell apart.
Now he's plotting his comebackand, yes, in every poll this new
unnamed party for now it's justcalled Naftali Bennett 2026, is
(55:01):
doing very well and leadingeveryone, including Netanyahu
and the Likud party.
So I mean same question to youas before Is Naftali Bennett for
real in terms of his publicsupport, his candidacy to be
prime minister?
You know he does, or at leasthas the ability potentially to
kind of straddle both,definitely the right and maybe
(55:24):
even the center left.
Tal (55:27):
Yeah, so of course Naftali Bennett is the, you know, the
hottest product on the shelvesright now.
You can see it in the polls.
Neri (55:35):
But yeah, but the shelf, the shelf of Israeli politics,
it's, like you know, asupermarket in 1987, Soviet
Union.
There's, there's like four,there's four products.
Tal (55:45):
I just old enough to have seen Naftali Bennett spike in
the polls and end with six seatsor not even past the electoral
threshold.
So, a Naftali Bennett is alwaysvery good in the polls.
B we are not campaigning yetand Bennett has been extremely
(56:05):
selective about what he saysthings about and what he doesn't
say anything about.
For instance, for over a yearof the judicial overhaul,
naftali Bennett had nothing tosay about that.
And even in the hostage deal hehas been, you know, vying away
from issues that could cause himdamage on each side or, you
(56:26):
know, cause him to diminishsupport on each of the political
spectrum.
But in a campaign he won't beable to do so.
By the way, he also hasn'tgiven an interview to Israeli
media, basically since he left,so he hasn't been asked
difficult questions.
I think his popularity A mainlyrepresents the need or the will
(56:48):
or the wishful thinking inIsrael for a different leader,
someone from the outside.
But I'm not sure how it will,you know if it's sustainable in
a campaign.
The minute you start a campaign, you'll have to answer
questions and give clear answerson them, answers on them, and
(57:13):
it'll be very easy for rightwingers or other right wing
parties or from the coalition,for instance, to try and eat
from his support from the right,and for the center left parties
to try and eat from his supportfrom the left.
And the minute he losestraction, then you know.
There's something alsopsychological in Israel, amongst
the anti-Netanyahu camp, isthat whenever someone seems to
be the alternative, then justthe fact that he's leading in
(57:37):
the polls brings more people, ormore voters or more supporters,
because they see him as analternative.
But the minute if NaftaliBennett will not be over 20
seats, then he will notnecessarily be perceived as an
alternative to Netanyahu andthen some of those votes might
go back to other places.
Again, we are far away or atleast we might be far away from
(57:59):
elections.
It also depends on you know, whois Naftali Bennett going to put
on his list.
How is it going to look?
There's also an option, notmuch discussed, but because
supposedly they put it off thetable.
But you know, the most logicalthing would be for Naftali
Bennett and Avigdor Liberman tojoin forces and to create a big
(58:20):
right wing party.
That would be an alternativefor Alikur in two different
parties.
Then they once again areactually helping Netanyahu
preserve himself as the biggestparty instead of trying to
challenge him in his own homecourt.
Neri (58:38):
Correct and that's also been in the ether Lieberman and
Bennett, but the same issue asGantz and the other side of the
political ledger.
Is Lieberman going to allowNaftali Ben to essentially be
number one?
He's going to have to.
Tal (58:55):
So at the moment it seems like no, but again, there's no
reason for them to announceanything right now, when there
are any elect right.
So there should be both on thecenter-left, as you mentioned,
between Yann Lapid and BennyGantz, and on the right, the
anti-Netanyahu right.
There should be some strategicthinking and some strategic
(59:17):
pressure from the anti-Netanyahucamp to reorganize themselves
in a way that they can defeatNetanyahu.
Because if you look, if thecamp remains organized the way
it has been in the past fewyears and that's the way it is
right now then it'll be veryeasy for Netanyahu to keep in
power.
And there's you know this, theway the anti-Netanyahu camp is
(59:41):
arranged right now did form agovernment in 2021, but it fell
apart in 2022.
They couldn't keep it together,they couldn't win the election
and they couldn't bring downNetanyahu's government.
So, in my opinion, the mainchallenge for the anti-Netanyahu
camp is to think how toreorganize itself in a strategic
way that leads to bringing downNetanyahu, and one of the ways
(01:00:04):
to do that is to stop thesestupid divisions, which are only
based on personality and not anideology, and to reorganize the
political map.
Neri (01:00:15):
Yeah, egos, as always in Israeli politics, do a lot of
the work, as opposed to sayideology or policy positions.
Remains to be seen and, likeyou said, tal, elections are not
on the horizon anytime soonmost likely so we'll have to
check back in with you when theyreally are, hopefully sooner
rather than later.
Let me just wish you and yours,Chag Sameach Hopefully it will
(01:00:40):
be a quiet week next week, tal,so we can take a break and enjoy
it.
Enjoy the spring, chag Sameach,bye, bye, okay, thanks again to
Tal Shalev, as always for hergenerous time and insights.
Tal (01:00:47):
Enjoy the spring.
Chag Sameach.
Neri (01:00:50):
Bye, bye, okay.
Thanks again to Tasha Lev, asalways, for her generous time
and insights.
Also, a special thanks to ourproducer, jacob Gilman, and to
all of you who support IsraelPolicy Forum's work.
Do consider making a donationto Israel Policy Forum so you
can keep being a credible sourceof analysis and ideas on issues
such as these that we all caredeeply about, including this
podcast.
(01:01:10):
And, most importantly, thankyou for listening and Chag
Sameach to all those celebrating.
Thank you.
Shalom and welcome to the Israel Policy Pod.
I'm Neri Zilber, a journalistbased in Tel Aviv and a policy
advisor to Israel Policy ForumChag.
Sameach everyone and happyalmost Passover and Easter.
With the holidays nearly uponus, I thought it would be a good
time to touch base with ourdear friend Tal Shalev, the
chief political correspondentfor Walla News.
(00:25):
She and I broke down the recentNetanyahu-Trump summit meeting
in Washington this week, thewhole deep state conspiracy
issue here in Israel, just to beclear, the Qatar Gate
investigation, and we ended witha political check-in on both
the state of the Netanyahucoalition and the opposition.
This was, as always, awide-ranging and free-flowing
(00:48):
conversation, so let's get TalShalev Hi Tal, welcome back to
the podcast.
Tal (00:56):
Hi Neri, how are you?
Neri (00:58):
I'm doing okay, tal, but you know as well as I do that
Passover is just a few days away.
Just for the record, we'rerecording this on Wednesday
afternoon, tel Aviv time.
So really just a few more daysand then the holidays, as
they're called here, will beupon us.
How are you feeling?
How are you doing before theChagim?
Any big plans for next week?
Tal (01:17):
Well, you know, never a dull moment.
So let's wait and see if theholidays are real holidays or as
part of the whole chaossurrounding us or swifting us,
(01:48):
what is supposed to be peacefuland calm, khol Am know, a
holiday like Passover, which isall about freedom, right?
So a constant tension betweenyou know, the need to lead a
normal life and to you know,breathe and do things that are
outside of day-to-day politics,and between the fact that you
know we're in a very abnormalsituation.
(02:09):
So that's a constant tensionwhich I think we'll be dealing
with next week as well.
Neri (02:16):
Definitely a constant tension every day for the past
18 months, and some would sayeven before the past 18 months,
even before the war.
But that's another story.
But you're right, I wasthinking back to last Pesach
last year and there were barelyany flights.
The war was really still infull swing, unlike now, which is
(02:38):
a very different war, and itseemed like the whole country
kind of came together.
There's a much stronger senseof unity.
Last year, you know, there wasan empty chair next to the table
for the hostages, a lot ofyellow, at least in my family's
Passover Seder politicized.
(03:07):
Even the hostage issueshouldn't be political at all.
That was what I was thinking ofin terms of the contrast
between this year and last year,that the politics have actually
come back in a really bad way.
But I was going to ask Tal,what do you know that I don't
about Holamued?
It's supposed to be a time ofno politics.
I think a lot of thepoliticians are going to be
flying away on vacation.
What kind of news are youexpecting next week?
Tal (03:28):
I wish, I wish.
I mean, I'm just saying this issuch a crazy.
We live in such crazy times.
I don't know about anythingspecific, I'm just saying, as I
know the tempo of my work, I'llbe grateful if all of the
politicians take a month away, amonth.
They can take a month vacation.
Neri (03:48):
Right.
Tal (03:50):
Unfortunately, we live under, you know, the Bibi regime
, and the Bibi regime is veryhectic and finds it very hard to
lay down.
It's true that this is anextremely religious government
and the Knesset is on vacation,on its spring recess, and even
this week you can start feelinghow like the country is slowly,
(04:10):
slowly, you know, slowing downahead of the holidays.
But you know I'm just preparingmyself for the worst.
Neri (04:17):
Yeah, that's a.
That's a good way to toapproach our, our line of work,
although I will be telling mybosses not here that everything
will be completely, completelyquiet.
Everyone's off.
There won't be any news, let'shope for the best.
Tal (04:29):
Fingers crossed, I'm rooting for you.
Neri (04:31):
Yeah, I'm rooting for me too.
I'm looking forward to the hug.
But let's get down to businessand Netanyahu.
He was in the White House a fewdays ago for another summit
meeting with Donald Trump, theirsecond in two months.
This one, I dare say, was asurprise summit.
It wasn't planned.
And then I was, of course, inHungary late last week and this
(04:55):
past weekend, and then he wascalled to Washington to talk
mostly about tariffs and Iran,but also a little bit about Gaza
and Turkey.
So first question to you, talyou're a veteran of these
diplomatic trips.
What did you make of thisquickie one?
It wasn't the best White Housevisit for Bibi, was it?
Tal (05:13):
To say the least.
I would probably rate itamongst you know his top five
bad visits to the White House,at least the way you know, at
least from what we know now andyou know from what was televised
that not very short encounterin the Oval Office.
Netanyahu did not evolve fromthis meeting strengthened or
(05:36):
bolstered, as he has used hismeetings with President Trump in
the past.
So you know the way it wastelevised here.
Netanyahu did not emerge asKing Bibi or King America.
On the contrary, I think he wasquite ambushed there by the
president with his comment aboutthe direct talks with Iran,
(05:59):
even if it was coordinated inadvance and Netanyahu wasn't
caught in the dart.
This was Netanyahu's thing, youknow this is to talk about.
I mean, just like the irony ofthinking how Netanyahu would
react if President Obama orPresident Biden would be sitting
next to him in the Oval Officeand announcing he's opening
(06:21):
direct talks with Iran.
And you know Netanyahu's baby,and one that he has been very
much nourishing in the past fewmonths, is an Israeli attack on
the Iranian nuclear program, butalso the comments about Turkey
and Erdogan, which you know arecontrary to statements that
(06:42):
Netanyahu and senior Israeliofficials have been making about
the Turkish influence in thepost-Assad Syria In that
question.
In that response, presidentTrump basically told Netanyahu
well, you got to be reasonable.
So I think that, at large, youknow, one of the reasons that
Netanyahu, you know, cherisheshis White House visits is
(07:05):
because of the image it impactsin Israel, the way it televised
in Israel.
So this is one of the you know,I can't remember a visit which
was so humiliating for him, atleast on the outside.
Of course there might beunderstandings on the inside
that we do not know about, butat least you know there's one
(07:26):
good thing about President Trumpbeing so eccentric that you
know the rifts are just out inthe open.
There's no daylight thatNetanyahu will not necessarily
like.
And even the excuse thatNetanyahu gave, the main excuse,
which was the tariffs eventhere, and even though Netanyahu
(07:50):
offered to succumb, basicallysuccumb to President Trump and
remove all tariffs here inIsrael and pay back I don't know
what he said there $4 billion.
Even on that issue, which waspresented as the primary goal of
the trip, netanyahu didn't comehome with any achievement at
all.
Neri (08:10):
That's right.
It was quite a scene, thathour-long Oval Office,
essentially a press conference.
So they were sitting theretaking questions from a very
rowdy, well Israeli diplomaticpress and then also the White
House press.
Tal (08:24):
Yeah, well, I just want to mention that.
You know there was supposedthere was a real press
conference scheduled that wassupposed to take place after the
meeting, in which I thinkquestions would have been
distributed in a more even wayand Netanyahu would probably get
questions, more questions aboutwhat happens, what's happening
(08:46):
in Israel while he's abroad.
These are the, you know, theattempt to sack the head of the
Shimbad Security Service andother issues that are burning
here today, and I think I don'tknow, but I think Netanyahu was
the one who wanted to ditch thatkind of traditional press
conference and, by you know,having the press conference in
(09:07):
the Oval Office, it's totally,it was totally President Trump's
show and Netanyahu, at leastthe way I perceived it, was
basically just a status.
Neri (09:17):
Yeah, in English, basically an extra, an extra in
Trump's, trump's movie or play.
That's a really interestingtheory.
I hadn't actually thought aboutthat.
So he wanted it more to befocused on Trump's issues and
less the Israeli press askinghim.
Tal (09:33):
Well, yes, you know, netanyahu hasn't given a press
conference in Israel in I don'tknow over at least over half a
year.
So it just continues the trendright.
Neri (09:44):
He doesn't want answers journalists, but also for the
(10:07):
public to actually hold theirleader to account.
But I was going to say it wasinteresting.
I don't think I've ever seenNetanyahu sit quietly without
saying anything for so long in aroom.
Speaker 3 (10:14):
I mean really, and like you said, even on the Iran
issue.
Neri (10:20):
if President Obama or President Biden or anyone else
other than Trump had sat thereand said, oh yeah, we're going
to negotiate a deal with Iran, Ibet we would have gotten a
little bit more from BibiNetanyahu pushing back against
that idea.
But obviously Trump, like yousaid, is eccentric that's a nice
word for it.
And also the Turkey issue.
(10:41):
I was looking at Netanyahu'sbody language and face when
Trump answered that question.
He's like you know they're both, they're both my friends, and
you know he's looking at Bibi.
He's like yeah, you need to bereasonable.
It's like OK, that's not.
The messaging, like you said,coming out of the Netanyahu
government about Turkey in Syriaremains to be seen if Trump can
can mediate that issue, and Imean correct me if I'm wrong.
(11:06):
The hostage issue in Gaza ingeneral, almost both leaders
basically just kind of skippedover it.
It was very general responses,nothing really concrete, right?
Tal (11:17):
Yes, so I did notice President Trump's statement that
he hopes that the war will beover in a short matter of time.
I don't remember the exact,exact verb, but he did, let's
say at least he did not embracewith full power the Israeli
campaign and preparations for afull scale attack on Gaza.
(11:41):
He was more about we're stilltrying to end it Now.
I think the most evident thingfor me between the first press
conference, or the firstNetanyahu-Trump summit, and the
second Netanyahu-Trump summit iswhere the president's attention
is.
So in the first summit it wasall about the hostages and the
(12:02):
Gaza Riviera.
In the second summit he was allabout mainly about Iran and the
tariffs.
And that's just to show, a thepresident's attention span.
B how much you know credibilitywe should give to all of these
statements.
But C it all and you know.
It just shows that you know theenthusiasm that the
(12:23):
administration had when it firstentered office in June, which
was in January, which was a bigsource of hope for the Israeli
hostages families.
Well, you don't see thatanymore.
Steve Witkoff has now beenappointed to, you know, lead the
negotiations with Iran, withIran.
(12:46):
So you're not doing the samething at the same time, unless I
don't know about some secretplan by Witkoff to enable the
release of the hostages throughnegotiations about the Iranian
nuclear program, but I think itwas quite striking how that was
on the top of the president'sagenda when he entered office.
And here we are I don't knowwhat is it three months or four
(13:12):
months later and he's alreadymoved on and he passed through
Russia and Ukraine in the middleright.
So I think that was verystriking for me.
It's just not on the top of hisagenda.
Neri (13:18):
Right, steve Witkoff, trump's special envoy,
originally to the Middle Eastand primarily Gaza.
Then Witkoff was Well,apparently to the Middle East
and primarily.
Tal (13:26):
Gaza, then Witkoff was Well apparently to everywhere right.
Neri (13:29):
Well, that's exactly it.
Then he was tasked withbringing peace to Ukraine and
the Ukraine-Russia war, and nowWitkoff is going to Oman, likely
on Saturday, to negotiate withthe Iranians.
Each one of these global criseswould be a massive lift for any
diplomat.
To try to do all three at thesame time, that's a lot.
So, like you said, it's anissue of attention and bandwidth
(13:52):
.
Tal (13:53):
You know, good luck, right, I'm not, I'm all for
negotiations instead of war.
But I just think that you know,also in Israel, right,
netanyahu kind of dissolved thenegotiation team as part of his
efforts to undermine the Stimbetsecurity service.
He kind of pushed out the headof the Mossad and he pushed out
(14:15):
the head of the Stimbet and heassigned, you know, the file of
the hostage negotiations to RonDermer and Dermer, just like
Witkoff, is involved in I don'tknow 10 other big burning issues
.
And in that respect I think thehostages are being neglected
and their families are beingneglected.
(14:36):
And I feel, you know, on thepersonal level, to connect where
we started our conversation,it's like I feel very much
guilty of normalizing.
You know, not me personally,but I think that this is a
process of normalizing anabnormal situation.
Neri (14:54):
Very abnormal situation and I think the lack of
attention and pressure by theTrump administration on the
hostage issue, but really theGaza issue.
My conclusion is that they'rebacking the Netanyahu
government's position, which iswe're going to resume the war
and try to quote, unquote, applypressure on Hamas to get Hamas
(15:16):
to release hostages, without anycommitment by Israel to end the
war.
Tal (15:23):
Unless there's something that we don't know right.
It was very interesting to seethat a few, you know, just a
short while before the NetanyahuTrump summit, there was a phone
call between French PresidentMacron, who was in Egypt with
President Sisi and King Abdullah.
There is an effort to try andfind a way out of the war and of
(15:44):
course, we have to wait.
I mean, you know, PresidentTrump does have a dream of
breaking some kind of deal withSaudi Arabia, so I just think we
have.
Apparently we have to wait forthe White House attention span
to go back there.
Neri (16:00):
Yeah, I mean you know, like you said, it changes day by
day.
Yeah, I mean you know, like yousaid, it changes day by day.
So tomorrow it might be frontand center and then by Friday
it'll be gone.
Tal (16:10):
Exactly.
But remember, the first timeNetanyahu was in the White House
, the president said he would begoing to Saudi Arabia within
weeks and we've been hearingabout his trip to Saudi Arabia
within weeks.
But here the visit is notcompleted, you know, is not
happening yet.
So my, you know it might bewishful thinking, but my hope is
(16:33):
that ahead of his visit toSaudi Arabia, the president will
want to have some achievementin the Middle East and that
could be part of a big deal ofending the war.
Neri (16:41):
Very interesting theory.
I think he's supposed to be inSaudi Arabia next month, in May
at some point.
Maybe I'll believe it when Isee it frankly, I think there's
less going on than peopleimagine.
Obviously there's still thingsgoing on behind the scenes.
I don't want to make it seemlike there's no diplomacy
(17:01):
happening, but all these variousreports and leaks I take with a
grain of salt.
But I've been wrong before, soI'm willing to be wrong again,
especially on this issue andespecially to get the hostages
back.
And just a final point on theTrump baby summit the reason he
was there, the tariffs I thinkthat was useful for both parties
(17:21):
.
Tariffs I think that was usefulfor both parties.
Right?
Trump got the first foreignleader to DC, to the White House
, to quote unquote negotiateover removing the tariffs.
Bibi was very happy to be thefirst foreign leader to be there
and talk about all the otherissues on the agenda.
But in terms of brass, tacksand Tachlis, I think that Neahu
(17:42):
said afterwards yeah, we'regoing to work to close or
eliminate the trade deficitbetween the US and Israel.
Now I work for aquasi-financial newspaper called
the Financial Times.
We looked into this.
It's nearly impossible.
Israel doesn't really importall that much from America and
it exports to America certainthings and that's the reason why
there's a deficit.
(18:02):
And even before this governmentin Israel took away all the
tariffs on American imports.
It was already, I think, 95 or99% gone for years, so I'm not
quite sure what Netanyahu can doto appease Trump on the tariff
issue.
Tal (18:22):
Another thing that striked me watching that meeting that
probably didn't get enoughattention here in Israel was
that statement by Trump when hetold Netanyahu we're already
giving Israel $4 billion a yearand, of course, the focus needs
to be on the next MOU, which,you know.
Under any other administrationI would say it shouldn't be a
(18:44):
problem, but since thisadministration is in the midst
of, you know, a trade war withother countries and is
unconventional, then I thinkIsrael should be looking much
more seriously to start and openthe next MOU negotiations
because, given, you know, someof Trump's statements, it
(19:05):
doesn't seem like he necessarilywill give us everything that we
got from the Obamaadministration and, if so, he
will probably ask for things inexchange, because he is a
dealmaker.
Neri (19:16):
That's a great point, tal, and I think, out of anything
that should worry the Israeli Imean public, but definitely the
Israeli government more thananything, the fact that Trump is
, a definitely transactional andB is definitely aware of the
fact that the US provides what$3.8 billion a year in defense
(19:37):
aid to Israel as part of thismemorandum of understanding.
Basically, you know theUS-Israel defense deal, defense
pact, whatever you want to callit, understanding.
Basically, you know theUS-Israel defense deal, defense
pact, whatever you want to callit, and it expires in 2028.
And it takes a long time tonegotiate these things and it's
not all clear to me, and itshouldn't be a given to anyone
here in Israel, that Trump willre-up and provide the same level
(20:01):
of military support to Israel.
Like you said what do we get outof it?
We already give you $4 billion,so you need to give us
something.
Yeah, that could be a very rudeawakening for Israelis and for
this Israeli prime minister.
But moving right along, tal onething Netanyahu and Trump
likely agreed on was this wholeidea, concept, conspiracy of
(20:25):
deep states.
You probably were watching, asI was.
Yesterday, tuesday, at theSupreme Court in Jerusalem, a
hearing took place over whetherthe government can or cannot
fire Rodenbar, as you said, thehead of the Shin Bet, the
domestic intelligence agency.
The judges in the case basicallypunted and gave both sides a
few more weeks to find acompromise on this very
(20:47):
important issue of you knowwho's going to be running this
internal security agency.
Will Netanyahu be able toappoint someone, maybe more to
his liking?
And it's not clear, and remainsto be seen, whether the
government will actually adhereto the ruling, meaning that they
can't replace Barr before April20th.
So a few more weeks to findthis compromise.
(21:07):
But I think the larger point isthat Netanyahu is now very
clearly in open warfare with theShin Bet, after he's already
gone after the courts, theattorney general, the police,
the army, the media I'm sure I'mmissing something or someone,
but basically all theinstitutions of state here, and
calling it a deep stateconspiracy against him and his
government.
We've seen this movie before inother places, but knowing what
(21:31):
you know about Netanyahu, howfar do you think he will take
all of this in terms of hisbattle against what he calls a
deep state here?
Tal (21:40):
Well, first of all, I think he's taken it quite far.
So up until now, right, he'sthe first prime minister to be
convicted in a criminal courtNot convicted, indicted,
indicted, of course, in acriminal court.
And since 2017, when theinvestigation started, 2016,
(22:00):
2017, he has been basicallywaging a war against the state,
and you can include anything,everything that has happened to
us inside that, if it's theattacks against the police, and
then the justice ministry andthe five election campaigns and
the judicial overhaul which hisgovernment is promoting.
(22:21):
So I think the deep state isbasically, you know, a good
slogan for something thatNetanyahu has been doing for
many, many years, even before heknew it was called the deep
state, and he's just moved from.
You know, after the judicialoverhaul, he's basically now in
the midst of a security overhauland, of course, he is inspired
(22:44):
by President Trump and Elon Musk, whom he meets regularly during
his Washington visits, and whenhe came back from his first
Washington visit last inFebruary, he did fuel his
attempts to sack both Ronen Baal, the Shindad Security Service
head, and Ghaliba Ravmiyar, theattorney general.
(23:05):
So far, it seems that theSupreme Court or at least on the
case of Wonen Bar, the SupremeCourt is protecting, or at least
trying to protect, wonen Bar.
This is quite a, you know,peculiar situation, I have to
admit.
You know there are dozens ofthousands of Israelis who have
(23:28):
protested in the streets in thename of democracy and the name
of the head of the secretservice, onenbal, which is quite
a peculiar situation in whichonly Netanyahu could have
created, as I said, an abnormalsituation.
But Netanyahu has been wantingto fire Wonenbao basically since
the summer as part of a bigplan to replace all of the top
(23:48):
security at Cologne and have amuch more loyal and agreeable
top security brass.
Should, or you might, or youcould, or you should, write a
book about Netanyahu'srelationships with the head of
(24:08):
the security services, whetherit's the army or the Shin Bet or
the Mossad, specifically theShin Bet.
Netanyahu has a very badhistory with Shin Bet heads.
Almost all of them who haveserved under Netanyahu have came
out against him in the past fewyears in one way or another and
warned that he is a danger todemocracy.
Neri (24:26):
On that point I have to interject.
It's not just the Shin Betchiefs, it's, I think, literally
every IDF chief of staff goingback to the 90s has come out
against him.
Tal (24:35):
True, it's also the defense ministers.
There's no defense minister.
Neri (24:39):
And most of the Mossad chiefs it's literally every
security chief going backprobably 30 years have come out
and said, yeah, this guy is adanger to well Israeli democracy
in the country.
Even the ones like Bogia Alon,who was IDF chief of staff, and
Yoav Galant, who wasn't chief ofstaff but a senior general and
(25:01):
then defense minister obviouslyBoth of them are now his biggest
critics and they were in theLikud.
So I don't think there's oneexception.
Tal (25:10):
There are some exceptions in the Mossad, I think Yossi
Cohen.
Neri (25:13):
Give it time.
Tal (25:15):
It's part of an exception, perhaps the current Mossad chief
, but yes, there's basicallyalmost no exception.
And some of these former ShinBet chiefs are now coming out
and explaining exactly why theysay he's giving the explanations
, why they think he's a dangerto democracy, and that is
(25:42):
because Netanyahu has no limitsand has no borders and has asked
them over the years to dothings that are for his
political and personal benefitand not and have nothing to do
with security.
Even just you know the mostsimple example right,
netanyahu's constant it's notNetanyahu himself, it's
Netanyahu's family constantdemands, growing demands from
(26:03):
the Shin Bet security service,just to you know, to secure them
and their households.
And you know, you have YairNetanyahu, his eldest son, in
Miami with three Shin Betbodyguards and at the same time,
he is spreading conspiracytheories against the Shin Bet
who didn't wake up his father onthe 7th of October.
(26:26):
So, basically, this is aculmination.
If this, you know, this event orthis fiasco with Ronenba is a
culmination of so many innerbattles that Netanyahu has been
waging against the Shin Bet inthe past few years.
And again, he just has noborders, he has no limits
(26:51):
anymore.
So, as part of his currentbattle against Ronenbal.
He has been, you know, leakingconfidential letters written by
Ronenbal something that hasnever happened.
You know, I don't rememberanything like it the prime
minister leaking personalcorrespondence with the head of
the Shinbara security service,and he has been spreading
(27:13):
conspiracy theories, trying to,you know, brush off the Qatar
Gate scandal and withwhataboutism and kind of staying
Ronen Bar.
And of course, the main thingthat he's trying to do is that
he's trying to portray Ronen Barand not only Ronen Bar, also
Herzliya Levy and the army, asyou know, responsible for the
7th of October, and to shed allresponsibility himself.
(27:35):
So all of this is like aperfect storm uh happening right
now, uh, in igreo, and ofcourse, you have the supreme
court involved and embroiled now, and that brings in the other
storm, which is, you know,netanyahu's government's
relentless attempt to weaken theSupreme Court and threaten, you
(27:57):
know, undermine its authorityand undermine its decisions.
So we really are in the midstof, I think, one of the biggest
internal storms that we've seenin Israel, probably, you know,
just like before the 7th ofOctober, during the judicial
overhaul.
And this is all happening, ofcourse, when Netanyahu plans to
(28:19):
send the army, or at least hasplans to send the army for
another war, while you know,israel is once again shattered
down or being challengedinternally by these internal
fights and divisions.
Neri (28:36):
This is why I said, in a weird way, last Passover was as
difficult as it was and it wasdifficult, I don't want to
sugarcoat.
It was more uplifting andunifying, just in terms of the
overall vibe here in Israel,than this Passover to the
overall vibe here in Israel,than this Passover, which so you
know my test, my sad test, isactually the Yom Ha'atzmaut,
(29:01):
which will be next month, in amonth by now.
Tal (29:03):
Independence.
Day Less than a month from here, the Independence Day and, of
course, the day before which isthe Memorial Day for the
bereaved soldiers, which wasextremely difficult in 2023,
(29:25):
before the war, in the midst ofthe judicial overhaul.
It was extremely difficult in2024, with hundreds of know.
The scenes yesterday in theSupreme Court, which were quite
unbelievable, of shouting in theSupreme Court, are going to
probably repeat, might repeatthemselves and, you know, in
some of the same cemeteries, andthese are very, you know,
(29:48):
heartbreaking days for Israelisociety and consciousness.
Neri (29:57):
It is, it is, but, like you said, I think this year will
be even more difficult, notonly because another year of war
has passed, but because theconsensus that we had last year
has been broken deliberately.
So and Tal, you may notremember this, but I do Back in
2023, I was writing an article Iforget for who about the
judicial overhaul and the techprotests and the economic
(30:20):
protests and the reservistsrefusing to report for duty, and
basically everything waslooking like it was heading off
a cliff here and you told me youposed it as a question.
It's like you know that Yahoo,essentially, is destroying
everything he's built over threedecades, more or less, you know
(30:42):
, at the top of this countryrunning this country, and there
was no clear answer as to why.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It just was, for all the reasons we just discussed,
israel relations and regionaldiplomacy among policymakers and
community leaders, we promotepolicy measures endorsed by
credible security experts,develop analysis and commentary
and convene programs that engageand educate leaders across the
political, denominational andgenerational spectrums.
Our Young ProfessionalsInitiative, ipf-ateed, works to
elevate the discourse amongnext-generation leaders by
(31:30):
building community andfacilitating engaging programs
related to Israeli-Palestinianaffairs.
To learn more about our work,visit us online at
israelpolicyforumorg and followus on social media.
If you rely on Israel PolicyForum for credible and nuanced
analysis, please make atax-deductible gift today at
ipfli slash supportthepod or atthe support the show link in the
(31:51):
show notes.
Tal (31:52):
So I actually have the answer now.
Neri (31:54):
Okay.
Tal (31:55):
Why he's doing it for his own political and personal
survival, just as I mean, Ithink, in many ways, you know,
the post-7th of October.
Netanyahu is a ruthless andreckless leader who will and
we've seen it in so manyexamples if it's, you know, the
(32:16):
budget, the very fat budget,which mainly is fat for his
sectorial partners to keep hiscoalition together, and the way
that he has, you know, turnedthe hostages issue into a
political issue, and the way heis prolonging the war in order
(32:37):
to keep his coalition together.
So I think I understand whynathaniel is willing to um today
.
I understand why nathaniel iswilling to take, you know, tear
down everything that is good inthis country's fabric, because
it's what keeps him in power.
Neri (32:55):
Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the most direct and
obvious answer.
It just I don't know.
It seems insane to want to burnthis place down so you can rule
over the ashes, to borrow aquote from Game of Thrones.
By the way, we saw yesterday Ikind of alluded to this the
(33:15):
scenes at the Supreme Court forthe Ronan Barr hearing.
I'm pretty sure Netanyahu sentin supporters and, in some cases
, yes, bereaved families,families of the fallen, to go in
and yell at the judges, to yellat the former Shin Bet chief
and the former Mossad chief andthe former police commissioner
who showed up to the hearing andthey were yelling at them.
(33:37):
And, by the way, the judges, youknow you're responsible for
October 7th.
You're responsible as if therewas no prime minister here on
October 7th 2023.
You know, it all seemed very,very orchestrated.
And yet another brick in thewall here, you know, going after
(34:10):
institutions of the state Talwe have to get into Qatargate,
because I get asked about hismain political advisor and Elie
Feldstein, bibi's formermilitary spokesperson, by the
way, after October 7th 2023, andallegations that they received
money from Qatar to allegedlylobby on their behalf or improve
(34:31):
their image in Israel as theywere working in the prime
minister's office.
This is very important.
They were working in the primeminister's office.
Tal (34:38):
And again one of them.
One of them we know we we onlyknow at this point about Elie
Selstein getting money while hewas working in the prime
minister's office.
Neri (34:50):
Correct Right.
They're investigating whetherUri actually received money, and
that's that needs.
That needs to be shown.
But I guess, to start off withthis, when your family or
friends come to you, talyn, andask okay, what is this Qatargate
scandal?
How do you explain it to themso that they understand?
Tal (35:07):
it.
I have to say that I think thatQatargate, the prime minister's
office, is handled and managedtoday how it does not keep
(35:48):
confidentiality rules at all andit does not succumb to security
considerations at all.
And it's more, like we say inHebrew, which is a neighborhood.
It's more like a hood than theplace where the most important
decisions in the country aresupposed to be made.
Netanyahu has been with him formany years and perhaps other
advisors who are not directemployees of the prime
(36:16):
minister's office, but stillthey are part of the prime
minister's entourage and walkdaily into the office.
So the issue is Eddie Feldstein, who was Netanyahu's
spokesperson, even though hedidn't pass a security clearance
, and why was he still there andhow was he paid and how was
(36:38):
this approved?
And the issue is if Yonatan Uliis a private contractor of
Netanyahu, then how is itpossible that he can also get,
perhaps, or at least allegedlybe, involved with other
countries?
And the issue of Qatar itself Ithink it's a bit more
complicated.
(36:58):
A because Qatar is complicated.
It's not just an enemy country,it's not even defined by law as
an enemy country, but it's alsoa country who has an extremely
complex relationship with Israeland with the whole world and
Israel as a country has beenplaying a double game with Qatar
(37:19):
under Netanyahu for many, manyyears and I'm not sure that they
have necessarily has aconnection right.
But there are many, manyquestions in the air about the
whole policy that Netanyahudecided to move with the Qatari
payments to Gaza.
Now we know, you and I know,neri, that the reason there were
(37:40):
Qatari payments to Gaza, or thereason they were enhanced, was
because Netanyahu was keen onweakening the Palestinian
Authority and he had to find away to keep Gaza from, you know,
falling apart or bursting whenthe Palestinian authorities
stopped paying its officialsinside Gaza.
(38:02):
So in my opinion, there are alot of things embroiled in
Qatargate.
But the big question if we putaside the question of the
concept and then about thepolicy regarding Qatar, which is
not a criminal question, it isa question.
It might be a question for anational inquiry committee which
Netanyahu refuses to establish,but I'm not sure it has any
(38:33):
connection with the criminaldocuments that some of them
allegedly show that Netanyahuhimself was paid dozens of
billions of dollars by theQatari.
We don't know if thesedocuments are real.
They haven't been authenticated.
Neri (38:48):
I don't believe it personally.
Tal (38:51):
Again, I don't know if you're there, but definitely
there are many, many points thatare unconnected and I'm not
sure that they will be connected, but at least in the Israeli
public conscience they arecurrently being connected all
the time.
You know it's not clear wherethis investigation is leading.
(39:12):
And B because Netanyahu willnot have a national inquiry or
he won't even answer questionsabout Qatar.
He'll only say on camera thatQatar is a complicated country,
even though he himself hadanti-Qatari messages during the
war.
So you know I've been going.
Sometimes Netanyahu also had theinterest.
(39:33):
I've been going.
Sometimes Netanyahu also hadthe interest.
Netanyahu had the interest ofstrengthening Qatar sometimes,
and sometimes he had an interestin weakening Qatar.
But at large, I think it's partof the same thing that we
talked about earlier.
It's the fact that Netanyahuhas no moral limits.
Netanyahu and his surroundingshave no more moral limits and
the most importantdecision-making security.
(39:55):
Decision-making is notnecessarily made on security
reasons, but rather on smallpolitical interests, and I think
that's the essence of the partyaides were kind of double
(40:17):
dipping and benefiting on theside from clients like Qatar as
they were advising the primeminister.
Neri (40:19):
And what was it?
Last week Netanyahu said well,jonathan Urych you know he's a
political advisor in the Likudparty trying to make it seem
like Urych wasn't an advisor inthe prime minister's office.
I think it's very clear legallythat he is a government
employee.
Feldstein was working in theprime minister's office.
How Feldstein was getting paid,I think is of critical
(40:40):
importance in this case.
Whether Ulrich or someone elsein the prime minister's office
set up the payment from Qatarvia an American lobbyist so that
it would reach Feldstein.
All of that still remains to beseen.
And, yes, look, if it's shown,if there's proof that Ulrich or
(41:04):
again someone else arranged thispayment to circumvent whatever
government ethics rules were inplace and got qatar to pay
feldstein, I mean that's, that'sunbelievable I think, letting
us leaving aside the question ofwhether uli and maybe someone
else, uh, were getting paid byqatar for for pr purposes, as
(41:28):
they were working for the primeminister.
Tal (41:29):
It's unbelievable, even without you know, even just just
from what we know, it'sunbelievable, even without you
know, even just just from whatwe know, it's unbelievable that
Eddie Feldstein, while he wasworking in the prime minister's
office whether he was gettingmoney or not, or who was paying
him he was physically workingthere.
It's unbelievable that, at thesame time, he would help Qatar
(41:50):
spread its messages.
And I dare to you know, wedon't know what will come out of
this Pandora box because this,all you know, the Qatar gate and
this is also worth reminding is, you know, came out of the
Pandora box of a different ofthe previous Feldstein affair.
Speaker 3 (42:10):
Scandal yeah.
Tal (42:11):
Yeah, scandal in which Feldstein has already been
indicted in court and Ullrich isalso very strongly involved,
which has to do with thatattempt, the leak to the build
about the alleged Hamas strategymemo.
Neri (42:26):
That's exactly right.
So this I dare say again Ithink it's kind of common sense
that the Qatargate scandal cameout of this prior scandal from
last fall where Feldstein, alongwith someone inside the
military, stole classifieddocuments, leaked it to the
prime minister's advisors, whothen gave it to the German
(42:50):
newspaper the Bild to get it outin the kind of the bloodstream
of the international media inorder to undermine the movement
here, to get the hostages back,to kind of solidify the
arguments by Netanyahu and hiscamp that Hamas was essentially
Hamas was not willing to releasehostages, that it may even be
(43:12):
trying to smuggle hostagesacross the Philadelphia corridor
into Egypt, and in that senseit defended and upheld
Netanyahu's argument that Israelcouldn't leave the Philadelphia
corridor.
Again we're getting into theweeds.
But there was a previousscandal involving classified
materials leaks and basicallyinfluence operations by
(43:35):
allegedly the prime minister'soffice against the Israeli
public.
Tal (43:40):
Yeah.
Neri (43:42):
Yeah, like we said, it's complicated, but I think we did,
hopefully a reasonable jobtrying to explain the broad
strokes of it, and remains to beseen what can be proven and
what can't be proven.
Before we finish up Tal, let'sdo a little bit of a political
check-in ahead of Passover,spring break.
Let's start with the government, with the Netanyahu coalition.
(44:03):
A few weeks ago, they veryeasily passed a budget that was
big for them and likely givesthem another year in power.
Itamar Ben-Gur even came backfrom exile from Borges into the
coalition after he left thegovernment over the Gaza
ceasefire deal back in lateJanuary.
So the coalition is now back tofull strength.
(44:24):
What do you expect theirpriorities to be for the summer
session?
Is it the whole issue of theultra-Orthodox military
conscription issue?
Is it the judicial overhaul?
I mean, what do you expect fromthe coalition in the next
couple of months?
Tal (44:38):
So the first and foremost issue on the coalition's table
is, of course, the conscriptioncrisis.
Netanyahu basically has beenpromising the ultra-Orthodox
parties over two and a halfalmost two years and a half that
he's going to pass aconscription bill.
This was one of theirconditions, their prime
(44:59):
conditions, of joining thegovernment.
They were supposed, accordingto their coalition agreements,
this bill was supposed to bepassed and approved before the
first budget and since thenNetanyahu has passed five
budgets and each time theultra-Orthodox parties, or at
least part of them, come outwith some kind of ultimatum and
eventually they drop theultimatum.
That happened just last month,again the budget, and now
(45:23):
supposedly there's anotherultimatum.
There won't be a bill or anyprogress with the bill within
the next two weeks or until theKnesset comes back from recess
next month.
Then they will vote against thecoalition.
So that's one issue on thetable.
(45:45):
There have been tireless.
Neri (45:47):
Do you believe the alt-orthodox?
Tal (45:49):
I don't believe the alt-orthodox, I mean.
A I don't think there'll be abill because I think that the
minimum that the ultra-Orthodoxare willing to consider doesn't
reach the minimum that the youknow General Israeli public and
most rich people will be willingto accept.
(46:13):
So, a I don't think there willbe a bill and B I mean I might
believe the ultra-Orthodoxparties.
I just think that it's nottheir call.
They just got the budget andthey just got all of the money
that they need to compensate forsome of the money that has been
taken away because of theconscription bill crisis.
(46:35):
And I think that, essentially,the decision whether there will
be an early election or not,well is traditionally has been
Netanyahu's and it'll still stayNetanyahu's decision, and I
don't see Netanyahu willinglygiving up a year in power.
That being said, there's acommon assumption that we are
(46:55):
entering an election yearbecause the next budget, the
2026 budget, has to be approvedby March 2026.
It'll probably be a verydifficult budget, just like this
one, which will have much taxraises and other bad news for
the general public, andNetanyahu will not want to pass
that kind of budget in anelection year.
(47:16):
So the assumption is that youtake the end of March 2026, and
somewhere between now and then,netanyahu will decide to go to
early election, but he will bethe one who will want to choose.
You know the agenda for theelection Now.
It could very well be you know,that he will decide that it's
good for him to go to electionwith a fight with the
(47:38):
ultra-Orthodox party and topresent himself as someone who
was not willing to give in totheir demands vis-a-vis the
conscription bill.
I don't feel that he has enoughor gained enough traction from
the 7th of October for him to goto an early election yet.
That being said, we could besurprised.
(48:00):
Another thing that's going to beon the agenda for the coalition
in the upcoming weeks or afterthe Senate recess will be the
attempt to pass bills that haveto do with the media.
You have the communicationsminister, shlomo Kali, who has
been waiting very patiently orrather impatiently, unpatiently
(48:23):
to pass the bills to A closedown or limit the independence
of the Public BroadcastAssociation.
He also has some plans to closethe army radio.
So that is going to be on thelegislative agenda for and
Netanyahu has embraced his plans, so that's probably going to be
on the legislative agenda forthe next few months, and the
(48:48):
government is also trying tofire the attorney general.
That has nothing necessarily todo with the Knesset, because
it's a complicated legal andbureaucratic process, but the
government is very keen onmoving forward and firing
Ghalibar and Rav Miara, so thatwill probably be at the top of
the agenda for the next fewweeks as well.
Neri (49:11):
Very interesting.
And, by the way, I'd be remissif I didn't remind you and our
listeners, the last time youwere on, you called it exactly
right that Smotrich would notleave the government, would not
leave the coalition, even ifthere was a ceasefire in
Hosserziel in Gaza, therebykeeping Netanyahu's government
intact.
And even Benville, you know heleft, but it was kind of
(49:34):
understood that he was comingback at some point.
So you're right.
You're right back then, tal.
Tal (49:39):
I'm always right.
Nene, I'm always right.
Neri (49:42):
This is why we like to have you on for the real tea,
for the real dirt.
Before we finish up, let'scheck in with the opposition
such as it is, and I wanted tostart with Yerri Golan.
The opposition such as it is,and I wanted to start with Yair
Golan.
He's obviously the formerdeputy IDF chief of staff.
He's a very outspoken critic ofthe government and a hero on
October 7th when he went downsouth by himself to fight and
(50:05):
rescue people.
He also became a hero inanother way last year when he
finally finally merged the twoleft-wing parties, Labour and
Meretz.
When he finally finally mergedthe two left-wing parties,
Labour and Meretz, they're nowcalled the Democrats.
Yair Golan is their leader andthey're rising in the polls.
So what do you think?
Is it for real in terms of theDemocrats and Golan?
Tal (50:24):
Yeah, Well, it's definitely .
You know you can't say anythingfor real because we have no
elections in sight and thingscan change during campaign, but
he is the trend, is definitelythe moment.
He definitely has gainedmomentum and he's the trendiest
one, the trendiest leader todayin the center left.
(50:47):
A because he's the newestleader in the center-left.
I mean he's competing againstYair Lapid and Benny Gantz, who
are both considered, I would say, if I say mildly, failures,
each in their own way, and YairGolan is the only one who hasn't
failed yet.
B because he has a much moreblunt and authentic style.
(51:10):
He's not, as you know, politeand lovable as Benny Gantz and
he is considered much more, Ithink, outspoken than Yair Lapid
, who always suffers from, youknow, this TV anchor image,
while Yair Golan has hismilitary history which kind of
(51:32):
praises him always everywhere hegoes, and the 7th of October
heroism.
So he is definitely very muchrepresentative of the trend and
he's also, I think,representative of the support
he's gaining.
You know the support he'sgaining.
(51:54):
It just goes to show how fed upat least the liberal camp is
with attempts to make peace withthe other side.
Yadon Golan is the mostcombative and, you know,
militant leader among all of theopposition leaders, he's
closest to the protest leaders.
So I think it's real.
But again, we're so far awayfrom elections and I think his
popularity, if we stay in thesame way we are now we see Yael
(52:19):
Golan, yael Lapid and Benny Gantin the center left that'll
probably continue to gainpopularity.
But if there are changes, byany chance, one of them, you
know, one of the changes thatare being being floated in the
air is the, the option that theAydin coat might, you know, head
a party, a joint party thatcould change the dynamics.
(52:42):
So I think it's too early tocall, but definitely if they
send, you know, yair Lapid andBenny Gantz stay the way they
are, then I do think that hewill continue to gain traction.
Neri (52:54):
And I mean I have to ask do you think Gadi Aizenkot is
built or, put another way, hasthe political talent to be the
figurehead of a center-leftmerged party list between Gantz
and Lapid and whoever else?
Do you think Eisenkot can carrythat?
Tal (53:17):
I know there are people who are skeptical about Daddy
Eisenkot, but I think that hehas the ability to appeal to a
very broad audience.
He comes from a differentbackground and he has a
different authenticity.
Speaker 3 (53:33):
He's also very authentic is really.
Tal (53:34):
Yeah, israelis believe him and he's also.
He's not as blunt as y'all andgoland, but he also has a way of
saying things that are muchmore clear-cut than y'all and,
uh, benny guns and about youknow his political and y' his
political and his politicalcapital.
You know it's about advisors andit's about putting the right
(53:56):
people around you and it's aboutwanting.
So does he want to do it?
I'm not sure that you know hewill say that he wants to be
prime minister, but if he isconvinced him leading a party
could make a change.
I think that he is keen onchange and I definitely can see
that something as emergent.
Neri (54:17):
Yeah, there's only the small matter of convincing Benny
Gantz to let his number two andrunning mate be the top leader,
anything's possible in.
Israeli politics, but thatwould be a big surprise.
Tal (54:30):
Again, I think it's too early to see how the Israeli
political I mean Israelis lovepolls, but they really don't
have any meaning right now.
Neri (54:40):
Yeah, I mean, on the issue of polls and this will be my
final question Tal NaftaliBennett, the former prime
minister.
He took a break from politicsback in 2022 after his coalition
fell apart.
Now he's plotting his comebackand, yes, in every poll this new
unnamed party for now it's justcalled Naftali Bennett 2026, is
(55:01):
doing very well and leadingeveryone, including Netanyahu
and the Likud party.
So I mean same question to youas before Is Naftali Bennett for
real in terms of his publicsupport, his candidacy to be
prime minister?
You know he does, or at leasthas the ability potentially to
kind of straddle both,definitely the right and maybe
(55:24):
even the center left.
Tal (55:27):
Yeah, so of course Naftali Bennett is the, you know, the
hottest product on the shelvesright now.
You can see it in the polls.
Neri (55:35):
But yeah, but the shelf, the shelf of Israeli politics,
it's, like you know, asupermarket in 1987, Soviet
Union.
There's, there's like four,there's four products.
Tal (55:45):
I just old enough to have seen Naftali Bennett spike in
the polls and end with six seatsor not even past the electoral
threshold.
So, a Naftali Bennett is alwaysvery good in the polls.
B we are not campaigning yetand Bennett has been extremely
(56:05):
selective about what he saysthings about and what he doesn't
say anything about.
For instance, for over a yearof the judicial overhaul,
naftali Bennett had nothing tosay about that.
And even in the hostage deal hehas been, you know, vying away
from issues that could cause himdamage on each side or, you
(56:26):
know, cause him to diminishsupport on each of the political
spectrum.
But in a campaign he won't beable to do so.
By the way, he also hasn'tgiven an interview to Israeli
media, basically since he left,so he hasn't been asked
difficult questions.
I think his popularity A mainlyrepresents the need or the will
(56:48):
or the wishful thinking inIsrael for a different leader,
someone from the outside.
But I'm not sure how it will,you know if it's sustainable in
a campaign.
The minute you start a campaign, you'll have to answer
questions and give clear answerson them, answers on them, and
(57:13):
it'll be very easy for rightwingers or other right wing
parties or from the coalition,for instance, to try and eat
from his support from the right,and for the center left parties
to try and eat from his supportfrom the left.
And the minute he losestraction, then you know.
There's something alsopsychological in Israel, amongst
the anti-Netanyahu camp, isthat whenever someone seems to
be the alternative, then justthe fact that he's leading in
(57:37):
the polls brings more people, ormore voters or more supporters,
because they see him as analternative.
But the minute if NaftaliBennett will not be over 20
seats, then he will notnecessarily be perceived as an
alternative to Netanyahu andthen some of those votes might
go back to other places.
Again, we are far away or atleast we might be far away from
(57:59):
elections.
It also depends on you know, whois Naftali Bennett going to put
on his list.
How is it going to look?
There's also an option, notmuch discussed, but because
supposedly they put it off thetable.
But you know, the most logicalthing would be for Naftali
Bennett and Avigdor Liberman tojoin forces and to create a big
(58:20):
right wing party.
That would be an alternativefor Alikur in two different
parties.
Then they once again areactually helping Netanyahu
preserve himself as the biggestparty instead of trying to
challenge him in his own homecourt.
Neri (58:38):
Correct and that's also been in the ether Lieberman and
Bennett, but the same issue asGantz and the other side of the
political ledger.
Is Lieberman going to allowNaftali Ben to essentially be
number one?
He's going to have to.
Tal (58:55):
So at the moment it seems like no, but again, there's no
reason for them to announceanything right now, when there
are any elect right.
So there should be both on thecenter-left, as you mentioned,
between Yann Lapid and BennyGantz, and on the right, the
anti-Netanyahu right.
There should be some strategicthinking and some strategic
(59:17):
pressure from the anti-Netanyahucamp to reorganize themselves
in a way that they can defeatNetanyahu.
Because if you look, if thecamp remains organized the way
it has been in the past fewyears and that's the way it is
right now then it'll be veryeasy for Netanyahu to keep in
power.
And there's you know this, theway the anti-Netanyahu camp is
(59:41):
arranged right now did form agovernment in 2021, but it fell
apart in 2022.
They couldn't keep it together,they couldn't win the election
and they couldn't bring downNetanyahu's government.
So, in my opinion, the mainchallenge for the anti-Netanyahu
camp is to think how toreorganize itself in a strategic
way that leads to bringing downNetanyahu, and one of the ways
(01:00:04):
to do that is to stop thesestupid divisions, which are only
based on personality and not anideology, and to reorganize the
political map.
Neri (01:00:15):
Yeah, egos, as always in Israeli politics, do a lot of
the work, as opposed to sayideology or policy positions.
Remains to be seen and, likeyou said, tal, elections are not
on the horizon anytime soonmost likely so we'll have to
check back in with you when theyreally are, hopefully sooner
rather than later.
Let me just wish you and yours,Chag Sameach Hopefully it will
(01:00:40):
be a quiet week next week, tal,so we can take a break and enjoy
it.
Enjoy the spring, chag Sameach,bye, bye, okay, thanks again to
Tal Shalev, as always for hergenerous time and insights.
Tal (01:00:47):
Enjoy the spring.
Chag Sameach.
Neri (01:00:50):
Bye, bye, okay.
Thanks again to Tasha Lev, asalways, for her generous time
and insights.
Also, a special thanks to ourproducer, jacob Gilman, and to
all of you who support IsraelPolicy Forum's work.
Do consider making a donationto Israel Policy Forum so you
can keep being a credible sourceof analysis and ideas on issues
such as these that we all caredeeply about, including this
podcast.
(01:01:10):
And, most importantly, thankyou for listening and Chag
Sameach to all those celebrating.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!