June 6, 2025 • 60 mins
On this week’s episode, Israel Policy Forum Policy Advisor and Tel Aviv-based journalist Neri Zilber and Israel Policy Forum Director of Strategic Initiatives and IPF Atid Shanie Reichman discuss the recent terror attacks against Jews in America, the safety of the American Jewish community, the controversial new humanitarian aid plan for Gaza and competing narratives over chaos and violence at the aid distribution hubs, growing international pressure on Israel, the latest Israeli domestic political intrigues, and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Shalom and welcome to Israel Policy Pod.
I'm your host, shani Reichman,the Director of Strategic
Initiatives and of IPF Fatid atIsrael Policy Forum, and I'm
joined by Neri Zilber, ajournalist based in Tel Aviv and
policy advisor at Israel PolicyForum.
How's it going, neri?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, shani, it's great to see you, since we're now,
just to remind everyone, a videopodcast, so you're coming to me
live and direct from MidtownManhattan.
It's great to see you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, you survived those rocket attacks from Syria
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The Syria attacks I mean they hit the Golan Heights
but the Houthis still keeping uson our toes.
Thankfully, none have gottenthrough since that really bad
one.
What over a month ago that hitin the vicinity of Ben-Gurion
and messed up a lot of theforeign carriers arriving and
departing from Israel?
Look, there are worse issues inthe world, but it is a major
(00:57):
issue here still.
But the Houthis are there.
The Gaza war obviously stillongoing, which we'll get into in
detail, trust me.
But I actually, since I have youhere, shani, I wanted to use
this opportunity to give a lotof our listeners and now
watchers, who come from all overthe world, not necessarily from
the United States, notnecessarily from even the
(01:18):
American Jewish community, butreally all over the world,
whether Europe, the Middle EastAsia and we get a lot of
responses from all over theworld, whether Europe, the
Middle East Asia, and we get alot of responses from all over
the globe to give us a sense ofwhat it's like for the American
Jewish community these days,given the horrific, horrific
attack over the weekend inBoulder, colorado, and that came
two weeks after the heinousterror attack in downtown DC
(01:43):
that killed the two Israeliembassy staffers, yaron
Lashinsky and Sarah MilgramReally heinous.
And that obviously came afterwhat was it?
The attempted arson ofPennsylvania Governor Josh
Shapiro's gubernatorial mansion.
So I'm going to turn the tableson you from the start, shani.
(02:05):
You usually ask me what it'slike on the front lines here in
Israel, given the past 20 monthsof war.
What is it like from yourvantage point?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Sure.
So just to give a briefoverview, on Sunday there's an
organization called Run fortheir Lives, which is a walk or
a run to bring awareness to thehostages campaign to bring them
home from Hamas captivity.
And on Sunday there was a walkthat probably happens every
Sunday almost around the countryin Boulder, and it was attacked
(02:37):
.
There were mostly elderlypeople in their 70s and 80s who
were attacked.
One of them was a Holocaustsurvivor, attacked by Mohammed
Soleiman, an Egyptian whoarrived in the States on a
tourist visa and overstayed it,and he lit these people on fire.
You can see videos of themactually going up in flames.
He was planning this attack forover a year, they said, and he
yelled end Zionists.
(02:58):
He told the police he wanted toquote kill all Zionist people
and wish that they were dead.
So, regardless of any cautionsfrom the police, it's very clear
this was motivated by hatredfor Israel and is another
attempt of many to import theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict
into the United States, which issomething we caution against
(03:18):
very regularly.
And of course, it's coming justtwo weeks after an American Jew
and Israeli were killed at theDC Jewish Museum and I have to
be honest, I'm not confidentthat those outside of the Jewish
community really get it orunderstand that this is pure
anti-Semitism and an activedecision to hold all Jews
accountable for the conflicthappening in Gaza right now.
(03:40):
And I say this for a fewreasons.
First of all, I've spoken tomany people as you know, my job
is mostly talking to peopleabout this and nobody's hearing
from friends outside of theJewish community, nobody saying
how are you doing Checking?
in yeah, really across the board.
I mean, I hear once or two I'veasked at events that I that I
speak at too, so I have a prettylarge sample size, pretty large
(04:04):
sample size.
You hear politicians weighingin, of course, because that's
what's required of them, butbeyond that, I don't think
people see it as attack on Jews.
They just see it as one otherpiece of the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict, which I think is aproblem.
And you can add to that themedia reports of the museum
shooting routinely list them asIsraeli embassy staff, despite
the fact that they were targetedpurely for being at a Jewish
museum event.
(04:24):
There is no evidence that theterrorists actually knew that
they were Israeli diplomaticstaff at all.
Them being targeted had nothingto do with their work status as
part of the Israeli foreignministry and everything to do
with them being associated withJews and the Jewish museum and
Jewish event.
Ok.
So I think that that'ssomething that's outside of the
discourse beyond the Jewishcommunity and right now every
(04:46):
Jewish organization I know,including ours, is having very
serious conversations about howwe're going to secure our events
, how we're going to keep ourstaff safe, how we're going to
keep our constituents and ourmembers safe.
We're getting tons of questionsfrom people saying what are you
doing to make sure that yourspaces are safe for us?
And it's a very scary time forall of us to make sure that your
spaces are safe for us, andit's a very scary time for all
(05:07):
of us.
I think that at this point, mostAmerican Jews recognize that we
will always be at risk as longas we are associated with Jewish
spaces, as long as we arevisibly Jewish, and that's just
one of the unfortunatecircumstances of our identity
here that we have to grapplewith.
There are certainly talks ofshould we keep going to Jewish
(05:28):
events, but I don't take themseriously because after the
terror attack in Pittsburgh youmight remember 2018, the Tree of
Life synagogue a massiveshooting in a synagogue.
There was a show up for Shabbatcampaign.
Synagogues were packed.
I remember very vividly beingon the Upper West Side and going
to shul with a line around theblock to go to Kabbalah Shabbat
services.
I promise that's never happenedbefore.
(05:49):
So I think the headline here is, since you're a journalist,
jews are going to keep beingJewish, as we have always done,
regardless of what's happening.
But it's important to say thatI do think it could get worse
that I do think it could getworse.
And while many protests againstIsrael use legitimate slogans
(06:10):
and are not anti-Semitic and arereally just about, you know,
justice for Palestinians as theysee it, there are also many,
many, many who chant toglobalize the intifada, to find
justice and end the war by anymeans necessary.
These are direct quotes tobring the war home and these
slogans are very clearincitement of violence, and this
(06:36):
is our.
This is us seeing thosetranslate into action in real
time and denying the connectionbetween the incitement and the
use of really horrific language.
Just the only way that we canactually nip this problem in the
bud is by recognizing that andsaying this is actually the
manifestation of anti-Semitismin 2025.
This is what it looks like.
So that's it for my side of theocean.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Very well put, Shani, and I am curious.
I mean, obviously I wanted toget your perspective on this,
but you're also very uniquelypositioned because not only are
you an American Jew working foran American Jewish organization,
but also IPF's ATEED programliterally is across North
America, so your job is toactually be in touch with the
entire continent and people allover America and even in Canada.
So when you talk aboutincreased security or
trepidation in terms of hostingJewish events, are you not just
(07:40):
IPF, but is the American Jewishcommunity taking active measures
to actually make people feelsafer?
I mean, I'm curious about that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I must have been invited to two dozen webinars
hosted by different Jewishorganizations the alphabet soup
of organizations, as we call itover the past few weeks.
People are taking it veryseriously.
We work in partnership.
That's one of our mainorganizational values here.
I work with dozens, or,honestly, over 100 organizations
in the Jewish community acrossthis country and across Canada.
(08:11):
Everybody's taking thisseriously.
Everybody's thinking andtalking about this constantly.
I see immediate changes.
As I said earlier, you're notgoing to eliminate the risk.
This event was very high profileat the DC Jewish Museum.
Ok, there I genuinely believethere was nothing they could
have done better.
Ok, there was enormous securityfor this event.
So if an event like this thatwas super high profile, that had
(08:34):
a ton of security I'm sure thecapital police were involved in
securing the location ahead oftime OK, there's very little you
can do at this point.
No-transcript.
(09:05):
It was an AJC event.
I am confident they did theirdue diligence.
I don't question that for asecond.
There is at a certain point.
You know, it's not on us andour community to have massive
high walls and not allow anybodyinto our spaces.
It's on everyone else to ensurethis type of violent
anti-Semitism doesn't exist inour country doesn't run rampant.
(09:25):
So the burden being placed onus in America to be, you know,
having to wall ourselves off andhave armed guards outside of
every Jewish preschool and everyJCC and every community center,
is part of the problem.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, those armed guards have been there for years
, if not decades, for this veryreason.
But, given the events of whatjust the last few weeks, like
you said, hopefully theauthorities, whether local and
even above local, are doing whatthey need to be doing to nip
this in the bud and, like yousaid, remarkable that it's
(10:00):
happening in America in 2025,but maybe not that remarkable
that it's happening in Americain 2025.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Unfortunately not.
I just want to make clear thereis a connection between how
we're seeing anti-Israelactivists behave and the things
we're hearing them say andwhat's happening here and
recognizing that rhetoric.
It doesn't mean shutting downprotests, but it means
acknowledging that there's aconnection here.
We need to be calling that partout.
We need to be calling out theincitement before we end up
(10:30):
having to just call out theviolence that occurs as a result
of it.
Right?
So that's what I'm hoping tosee more from politicians to
across the political spectrum.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Politicians and regular folk.
And regular folk Hopefully yeahand look.
I would love to see that, but Iwon't hold my breath no, but
that's even more concerning whenyou said that, um, I've heard
similar things, uh, not inrecent weeks, but going back to
um earlier moments in the war,uh, where people didn't reach
(11:03):
out to their jewish sometimes,in many cases even very close
friends to see how they weredoing in the aftermath of
October 7th.
Um, either they weren't aware,or they didn't care, or they I
mean, let's not sugarcoat itMaybe they thought Israel had it
coming, uh, for whatever reason, and uh, uh, I've heard many
(11:24):
cases of uh friendships um beingbeing severed because of that,
because, uh, there was no, therewas no outreach, there was no
empathy and compassion.
Um, again, as we try to do ummost of the time, if not all the
time, to have empathy andcompassion for all sides,
without getting too too deepinto it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I am someone who spends their whole day
organizing spaces for youngAmerican Jews to talk about
Israel and theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict.
I cannot emphasize enough howmany people showed up after
October 7th saying I have neverwanted to talk or think about
Israel.
But I was pretty shocked whennot a single person called to
(12:07):
check in on me, despite me maybebeing Israeli, maybe having
tons of friends and family inIsrael, but at the very least
being a Jew.
So yes, to everything that youwere saying, it's very similar
now.
But on the one hand, I canunderstand why people sat there
and said, ok, it happened faraway, it's in Israel.
It's not my business to reachout to every Jewish person I
(12:31):
know, even though perhaps it was, but now it's happening on our
shores.
So there's, really nojustification for not reaching
out With that, maybe we shouldmove to your side of the world,
Neri.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
To my side of the ledger, absolutely, and look,
I'll just tie up the Americanside of this conversation and
transition to the Israeli sideof this conversation by saying
look, criticizing Israeligovernment policy is what many
of us do on a daily basis andthat's fine, that's legitimate.
(13:00):
What isn't legitimate isanti-Semitic rhetoric, behavior,
slogans and definitely terrorattacks against people just
because they happen to be Jewishin America or anywhere else.
Major difference, majordifference.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Let's talk about the humanitarian aid situation in
Gaza, because I think a lot ofwhat we're seeing in the States
is reactions to what people areseeing on the ground, and the
headlines here are dominated forseveral weeks by the rollout of
the Gaza HumanitarianFoundation and massive I think
miscommunications is probablythe way to describe it, or
(13:40):
debacles is another way that arecoming out of the situation on
the ground, as these conflictingreports emerge from the IDF,
from major media outlets.
What is the purpose of this newmechanism?
Why does this new initiativeexist, that is, to distribute
aid without the United Nations,without traditional NGOs?
(14:02):
How did this emerge?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So to go start from the very beginning and we'll get
into the controversysurrounding this new aid model
and really the controversysurrounding the humanitarian
situation in Gaza.
Look for most of the war,israel whether the government or
the military has said, claimed,stated consistently that UN and
(14:26):
other international aidagencies moving aid into Gaza
were helping prop up andperpetuate Hamas rule and
governance in the strip and thatHamas was siphoning aid for its
own fighters, its own fighters'families, and then also taking
aid to sell in the black marketand through that, whether
(14:52):
financially and otherwise, evenkind of based, like socially, to
control the population, thatthis aid mechanism through the
UN, was elongating the war andthat Israel wasn't able to
seriously put a dent into Hamasrule in the strip.
Now, going back, I don't wantto say to the beginning of the
war, but damn near in the earlystages of the war, definitely
over a year ago, there werevarious proposals, ideas
(15:15):
floating around inside theIsraeli system about how you
create an aid distributionmechanism that you could better
control and that you essentiallyseparate between the population
and Hamas.
And, long story short, theyultimately landed, a few months
ago, on this idea of aiddistribution hubs located all
(15:39):
across Gaza, essentially beingrun by US private security firms
.
Another word for it ismercenaries, although they don't
like that word, not one bit.
But essentially it's privatesecurity, ex-us military,
ex-whatever other military inthe world that are actually well
(16:01):
in the private sector.
So that was the idea to havethese aid distribution hubs set
up all across Gaza, and theywould also be guarded by the
Israeli military, by the IDF,and through that you have more
control over how aid isdistributed around the Gaza
Strip.
Now this will be, I think, aconstant theme of this episode.
(16:21):
If you talk to UN officials andother aid agencies, they'll say
you know, the IDF has nevershowed us actual evidence of
systematic siphoning and lootingof aid by Hamas.
That's the standard line, bythe way, according to my own
reporting and checks.
(16:42):
I think that's accurate, thatthe idea.
I don't think has ever come andsaid OK, this is happening at
this point, this is how muchthey stole, to actually show
evidence to, let's say, moresympathetic UN and other
international officials.
Hamas hasn't just been sittingthere for 20 months and just
letting its own fighters andleaders and families starve or
(17:07):
not have enough aid to actuallysustain themselves and their
fight.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So I do believe that Hamas has definitely been
looking out for number one,number one being Hamas.
But why hasn't the IDF beenable to produce this evidence?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, this also might be a constant theme of this
conversation in this episode.
Why?
Maybe bureaucratic inertia?
Maybe just professional kind ofincompetence?
Maybe this is a constantrefrain they don't want to give
up intelligence, assets ormethods?
They don't want to give upintelligence, assets or methods.
(17:43):
But really, if Israel isclaiming that there's systematic
, widespread looting by Hamasgunmen of aid convoys that go
into the Gaza Strip, surely youcan show that.
And if you remember back to thebeginning of the war, there
were instances where you had aidtrucks going into the Strip.
You saw like gunmen on them,but that's one instance of,
(18:08):
however, thousands of trucksthat have gone in into Gaza.
So again, both things can betrue.
You can, on the one hand, say,yes, there hasn't been evidence
provided of systematic,widespread looting by Hamas.
That widespread, systematiclooting may exist.
And yet and this is also maybea constant refrain during this
(18:28):
episode does it really matter,right?
If the humanitarian situationis so dire inside the Strip and
your stated purpose is to goafter Hamas and your stated
purpose, at least from theIsraeli government on down, is
we're not going after the Gassanpopulation, then you can't just
starve them.
You have to provide aid, youhave to facilitate aid.
(18:52):
And it's not enough, as the IDFhas been doing, just to kind of
drop off trucks or pallets orcontainers of aid on the Gassan
side of the border crossing andexpect the UN and the other aid
agencies just to kind of get itdone without actual coordination
with the IDF, without some kindof guarantee that their trucks
(19:15):
and their people are safe.
So again, it's not me sayingthis.
I've said this, I think, inprevious podcasts that the
situation in terms of thehumanitarian conditions in Gaza
are dire.
Bibi Netanyahu said so himselfa month ago when he said that
Gaza was nearing the red line interms of the situation and that
he had to facilitate thereentry of aid, by the way, via
(19:39):
the old UN model.
So that was Bibi Net, yahoo'ssaying the situation was pretty
dire.
You also had Donald Trumpsaying you know, people are
starving in Gaza and we have todo something about it.
I think his special envoy, steveWoodcuff, said you know, there
will not be a humanitariancrisis on Donald Trump's watch
in Gaza.
So that presupposes thatsituation is dire enough that
(20:01):
there is a crisis on our hands.
And yeah, look, the situationbecame a lot worse after the
collapse of the ceasefire inearly March, because these early
government, in its infinitewisdom and I'm being very, very
facetious and sarcastic onpurpose, and I'm being very,
(20:23):
very facetious and sarcastic onpurpose stopped all aid entry
into Gaza starting March 2nd for11 weeks.
For 11 weeks, and they thoughtthat would, I suppose, soften
Hamas's position at thenegotiating table.
They supposed that would leadHamas to break, and all it did
was Did it.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
No.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I mean we can get into the ceasefire talks maybe
later on, but clearly Hamasdidn't bend on its demand to
essentially end the war inreturn for the hostages and all
it did was make the situation alot worse for two million people
in the Gaza Strip and on top ofthat, heap massive amounts of
international pressure on Israel.
(21:02):
And this is to get to heapmassive amounts of international
pressure on Israel.
And this is to get to yourearlier point.
The headlines that you'reseeing don't do Israel any
favors, to say the least.
So both losses, in both cases,those are losses from Israel's
point of view.
And this went on for 11 weeks.
In the beginning you had peopleIsraeli officials say, well,
(21:22):
they have enough food for sixmonths, because Israel did allow
a lot of aid to go in duringthe two-month ceasefire.
But as our colleague ShiraEfron said, an aid truck is not
exactly an aid truck filled withaid.
An aid truck may be half filledwith aid.
An aid truck may be potatochips.
Again, she follows this a lotcloser than many other people.
(21:43):
But again there was a lot ofaid that went in, but it wasn't
enough to last for months, itwas enough to last for weeks.
And again, that was also aeither miscalibration by Israel
or just willful ignorance byIsraeli officials.
So this brings us to thecurrent moment where you need a
well A, you need aid to go in.
(22:05):
B, if you're Israel, you don'twant it to just go, from their
point of view, to Hamas.
Enter the Gaza HumanitarianFoundation, and I and my
colleagues have done a lot ofreporting on this kind of very
shadowy organization.
I won't get into the weeds ofwho came up with it and who's
(22:25):
running it, but suffice to saythis was an Israeli idea that
was essentially sold to variousAmerican partners, not least
also Trump administrationofficials, who in recent weeks
have definitely gone out thereand tried to sell this idea as
their own, to make it a bit morepalatable to the UN and others.
(22:46):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
They would want to take credit for it, given what's
happening.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Well, we'll get into that in just a second how the
first week has been, because theGHF, as it's called, the Gaza
Humanitarian Foundation, startedoperations a little over a week
ago.
But trust me, I'll get to thatin a second, because everyone
has been following that very,very closely, as I'm sure our
listeners are aware.
But essentially the GazaHumanitarian Foundation was a
(23:13):
mechanism by which Israel couldfacilitate aid to Gaza, although
, as Shira and others can tellyou, the ability of this
mechanism, through these aidhubs, to distribute enough aid
to the entire population of Gazawas always in severe doubt.
(23:36):
But number two, from theIsraeli point of view, to do it
and not allow Hamas to benefitfrom it and also to essentially
separate the Gazan populationfrom Hamas.
And also you get into kind ofthese geographic questions about
where these hubs are going tobe located.
They're primarily going to belocated in southern Gaza.
That's a major point ofcontention because that's from
(23:58):
the UN point of view and others.
That's facilitating kind of thedisplacement of the internal
population, to say nothing ofthe fact that you have kind of
armed American securitycontractors kind of running this
.
So that brings us to the pastweek.
And how has it gone?
(24:18):
You may be wondering.
You may be wondering Not great.
And this is also a major pointof contention, because people
here in Israel and also thefoundation itself say you know,
the past week has been asmashing success.
According to their metrics,they've given out over 7 million
meals.
So they count it by mealsbecause they essentially
(24:40):
distribute boxes of notready-made meal it's like it's
food products and which then thepopulation goes and cooks, but
they count it as meals and eachbox is supposed to go to the
head of a household.
I think their latest figure isover 100,000 boxes, which in
(25:03):
theory should mean 100,000families, and each family in
Gaza could be five people ormore.
But again, how do you know thatthe same family hasn't gone
back and taken the same aid?
And again, 100,000 families isnowhere near, doesn't get you
anywhere near 2 million peopleat all, even though the number.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
It's not even close.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, but that's how they count it.
They count it as 7 millionmeals, so that's a nice kind of
headline.
So from the foundation's pointof view, they obviously have an
interest in promoting successand also from the Israeli point
of view, they have an interestin promoting the success.
You know.
B'tselel Smotrich, the, thefinance minister, said I think
the first or second day of thefoundation's operations, this is
(25:45):
the turning point in the war.
This is the moment that Hamasrule is going to crumble.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, that's bold.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, I mean, you know Smotrich says a lot of
things Doesn't mean they're true.
But look, the problem, the cruxof it, is that over the past
week, uh, I mean we'll get tothe obvious problem in just a
second the fact that peoplelikely were killed, kind of
waiting for these places to open.
But the bigger problem is thatso far they've only opened four
(26:15):
distribution hubs three insouthern gaza, near rafa area,
right, uh, and one one incentral Gaza, in the kind of
Netsarim corridor that's held bythe IDF.
But four in theory, becausesince Friday and we're recording
this, by the way, on Wednesdayevening, tel Aviv time, so since
Friday, only one of those hubshas been opened right, so that's
(26:40):
not nearly enough.
And also it's it'sgeographically, obviously it's
only in that specific area andreally they've only been open
for a few hours in the morninguntil all the boxes are are
claimed and taken um.
And even today, right onwednesday, none of the hubs were
open.
They said it was for kind ofreorganization and logistical
reasons.
But they, they say they'regoing to ramp up um to you know,
(27:05):
increasing numbers of hubs uh,they do well, I think, to get
the four that they've alreadycreated, uh up and running for
what they said in the beginningwas going to be for whatever, 24
hours a day, which is nowherenear what we've seen so far.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
The bigger problem is .
I'm sure you're going to ask meyes, I am going to ask you how
we ended up with reports of IDFsoldiers shooting at, or near or
next to, the civilians going toreceive aid.
There were initial reports.
Those reports were thenretracted.
The IDF, from what I've seen,has actually been very vague
about what actually happened.
So what on earth is going on?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So I mean, all hyperbole aside, this is both a
major crisis, strategic event,call it what you will.
Since Sunday basically so lastweek, I think the first or
second day of operations you didhave a crowd of Gazans overrun
one of the aid hubs actually theone that has remained open near
(28:11):
Rafah and Tal As-Sultan, nearthe coast.
There may have been someinjuries during that incident,
but no fatalities, as far as weknow.
Sunday, this past Sunday, wewoke up to reports that,
essentially overnight, early,early Sunday morning, dozens of
(28:33):
Gazans were shot at and killedat the aid distribution site
near Rafah, near it.
The reports were unclear.
Okay, how shall I put this?
Uh, the initial reaction fromthe IDF was well, uh, you know,
(28:55):
we're unaware of any kind ofinjuries or fatalities, but
we're still looking into it.
That was at around 10, 11o'clock in the morning.
Now, mind you, the reports ofeventually, it was 31 killed on
Sunday were already running allover the world and essentially,
the IDF finally came out with astatement around, I think, 6 or
(29:18):
7 pm by the way, erev Chag so itwas the eve of Shavuot saying
that, you know, flatly denyingthat they shot at anybody and
that it was.
You know it was due to theirfire that there were any
fatalities.
The IDF then put out a video ofalleged Hamas gunmen shooting
(29:39):
at Ghassan civilians that weresearching for aid.
But that wasn't anywhere nearthe aid distribution hub that
was in Khan Yunis, a separatecity, anywhere near the aid
distribution hub that was inKhan Yunis, a separate city.
The GHF, the foundation, putout these kind of grainy videos
from the aid distribution sitefrom that morning showing people
(30:00):
kind of gathering and takingaid, but again that wasn't time
stamped, there was no indicationright that it was anywhere
during the time of the allegedfiring and shooting and alleged
fatalities.
So again, so irrelevantinformation that is it's meant
irrelevant theory meant todemonstrate that they weren't
(30:22):
responsible for it, but didn'tactually address the issue at
hand and the place and time thatwe're referring to correct and
it also happened 12 hours afterthe initial reports that morning
, right, so it's also just amajor in terms of your strategic
communication strategy, a majorown goal, and the IDF and the
government caught a lot of flackfor it domestically.
(30:44):
Now, again, I'd love to tellyou definitively, one way or the
other, that, yes, the IDF shotand killed 31 people.
Uh, or you know, flat out tellyou that the IDF did not shoot
and kill 31 people.
Um, I can't, and it's not forlack of trying, uh, the weird,
the other weird thing about thisincident just on Sunday was, um
, there was no real footage ofit.
(31:06):
And usually in Gaza you do havevideo footage of, of events,
especially kind of what aresupposed to be mass casualty
events.
So that was also weird, strangeand and gave a lot of us pause.
Okay, you know, maybe, maybethis wasn't, um, how it was
reported from inside gaza, uh,but on the flip side, you had
(31:28):
reports from various hospitalsin southern Gaza of casualties
coming in and with gunshotwounds and the like.
So again, you know, a it's verydifficult for reporters,
especially foreign reporters, toconfirm things when we're not
there.
That's number one.
Number two the IDF did a verypoor job of explaining, or not,
(31:51):
what actually happened there,and the IDF should be aware of
what's happening in Gaza,especially in areas that it's
controlling or it has a truepresence in.
Number three doesn't obviate orpreclude the possibility that
Hamas and other kind of actors,the health ministry in Gaza or
the like, are lying, for obviousreasons, right To get Israel
(32:17):
and also this new aid mechanismessentially delegitimized
worldwide.
And that's where we'reessentially at in terms of the
Sunday event Very weirdsituation.
I'll be very careful with what Isay.
My best guess, and it's only aguess, is that on Sunday morning
(32:37):
, and also, by the way, onMonday morning, and also, by the
way, yesterday morning, onTuesday morning, I think, a lot
of people, thousands of people,because there's only, like we
said, one aid hub that's openfor a limited number of hours,
just in terms of supply, in thisparticular corner of southern
Gaza, that thousands of peoplenext to IDF forces.
(32:59):
Again, it could be, you know,500 meters a kilometer, two
kilometers away from the aid hub, but they're there, kind of
waiting either next to or beyondan IDF checkpoint to access the
(33:22):
aid hub.
That it doesn't.
It's not out of the realm ofpossibility that there may have
been a mad crush and that theIDF, you know, felt the need to
open fire.
Now, in terms of the incidentthat happened on Tuesday, the
IDF said it initially firedwarning shots, but that it did
fire at several suspects not youknow yesterday, on Tuesday, I
(33:46):
think, there were reports of 27people killed in this incident.
So, like I said, both thingscan potentially be true, that
the death toll may have beeninflated, but that the IDF, for
whatever reason, may have openedfire.
(34:12):
Now, just for the record, as wesay, to cover all our bases, the
IDF, at least in terms of thisSunday incident, still denies
that they opened fire on thecivilians.
And again, we just don't know.
We just don't know.
Could it have been other armedactors in the area opening fire
on Gazan civilians?
Could it have been Hamasopening fire on Gazan civilians?
I wouldn't put it past them.
But it goes back to our earlierpoint right, if Hamas were
actually opening fire on thismass group of civilians, where
(34:34):
is the IDF?
And the drones and whateverkind of showing that very
clearly it's a major issue.
So I don't know if it answeredanybody's questions, but this is
essentially what I've beendealing with since the weekend,
trying to figure out whatexactly happened, to the best of
our ability, and not, um again,trying not to to kind of play
(34:57):
favorites, right, you know, ifyou're, if you're trying to be a
professional and report on thesituation, you know, is it out
of their own possibility thatthe idf opened fire?
No, is it out of their ofpossibility that the death toll
from inside Gaza was inflated?
No, is it out of the realm ofpossibility that it might have
been a combination, that Hamasmay have opened fire to cause
(35:19):
this provocation, potentially?
But again, we're doing the bestwe can and you know I'll say
two things.
Number one Israel needs to do amuch better job.
It's not even just Hasbara,right, it just means, okay, like
you have to kind of be a lotmore proactive in what you're
(35:39):
putting out there.
Okay, we'll be right back afterthis brief message.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
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Speaker 2 (36:45):
So that's the first point.
Second point, and it maybespeaks to the bigger moment in
this now 20-month war, israeland people who support Israel,
not only, but Israel and theworld, are dealing with two
completely different conflictson a whole array of issues,
(37:06):
right From the GHF, the new aidscheme being a wild success, to
it being a chaotic, umboondoggle, shall we say, during
its first week.
Uh to the actual objectivehumanitarian conditions inside
the strip.
Uh, how good, slash bad, arethey?
Uh to the fact, you know, we'renow hearing via the idf, but
(37:30):
also from various governmentofficials, uh, hamas rule is
crumbling finally inside thegatha strip.
Is it really?
Is it not?
Um, you know?
And also, uh, the legitimacy andjustification for continuing
with the war, and maybe we'lltouch on it in a second, but
just the growing internationalwar, and maybe we'll touch on it
(37:51):
in a second, but just thegrowing international pressure,
slash condemnation of israeljust in the past two weeks, uh,
like nothing we've seen, um,since since the beginning of the
war.
So it's really kind of these twoparallel universes and, uh, it
was really encapsulated, uh,since sunday, by the fact that
you talk to an Israeli and evenif you watch Israeli media,
(38:13):
they're convinced Hamas openedfire on those people waiting to
get to the aid hub.
And they'll tell you about theclips that the foundation
released and the clip that theIDF released, and you talk to
someone who is not an Israeliofficial and they will give you
a completely differentperspective.
(38:33):
And that's where we are.
And it's very frustrating as ajournalist because something
either happened or did nothappen that Sunday morning and
that Monday morning and thatTuesday morning in southern Gaza
, and it's just reallyfrustrating not to be able to
say one way or the other with100 percent certainty.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
That said, we should acknowledge that I think I don't
want to call out the WashingtonPost, but I'm pretty sure it
was them and a bunch of mediaoutlets that initially had
headlines saying the sort ofHamas party line and then
retracted them.
I don't know to what extentthey edited them, but it was
clear that they acknowledgedthat what Hamas was indicating
happened.
What Gazans were sayinghappened was at least not clear
(39:15):
to have happened, even if someversion of it did.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
So, yes, I'm aware of various changes and corrections
.
Look, I'm not going to speakfor my friends at the Washington
Post.
I think they attenuated theheadline because they couldn't
say, like I said, with 100%confirmation that this is
exactly what happened.
But if you read the article,even after the changes, it's the
(39:39):
same basic reporting that theyhad originally in terms of
eyewitness accounts, accountsfrom medics and doctors in
southern Gaza.
So I think they stood by thereporting, but I think the
framing of it was a lot lessadamant.
And also, some of our listenersand watchers may be aware that
the BBC had to take down a videowhich they initially claimed
(40:00):
was from the incident, I believeon Sunday, and it turned out
that it wasn't from thatincident, wasn't from that
moment or location, but thatthey still stood by their
reporting in terms of theoverall event right, even though
they kind of withdrew thatparticular clip.
(40:21):
And again it goes back to whatI just said.
These are two parallelrealities with regard to this
one war, and never the twainshall meet.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, thinking more about how those outside of
Israel are viewing things.
Inside Israel they're verydifferently.
You mentioned earlier thegrowing international pressure
on Israel, obviously thebeginning of this war.
Israel's allies around theworld, not just the United
States and Canada, but certainlyacross Europe.
We're really standing shoulderto shoulder with Israel,
recognizing the need for Israelto go to war.
(40:55):
Let's say At this point that isfar from the case and we're
seeing increasingly particularlyEuropean countries we've got
Canada, canada, that list comingout and saying it's time to end
and I don't know if the aid isthe aid component of all this is
playing into it as well.
But tell us more about who'scoming out with statements and
(41:16):
what does pressure on Israelactually look like beyond just
statements?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, I mean, if you want to give, if you want me to
give you a list of thegovernments and formerly very
supportive governments that havecome out with very harsh
statements and even actions, andjust in the past two weeks, uh,
we'll be here, we'll be hereall night, um, but look all
kidding aside, it is governmentslike the new german government
(41:41):
and the right-wing italiangovernment and the british
government, and, um, france andcanada and France and Canada.
These aren't exactly bastionsor well-known kind of
anti-Israel either politiciansor governments or even countries
.
Right, there are other, shallwe say, more well-known and more
(42:01):
say knee-jerk, knee-jerk,anti-israel in general, and
especially since the beginningof the war.
These aren't it, these aren'tit.
And so this criticism and it'seven more than criticism at this
point, it's condemnation, it'scoming from friends and I think
(42:24):
a different Israeli governmentwould maybe take it a little
more on board.
This Israeli government is kindof steering into the skid.
Uh, it's always yeah on mostissues, right, and not even just
in gaza, right.
We saw, uh, the announcementlate last week of uh 22 new
settlements, actual entire newsettlements across the west bank
.
Uh, they're saying that.
(42:46):
Um, the idea that france andother governments may recognize
a palest Palestinian state it'llbe how they put it a state on
paper that will be thrown intothe wastebasket of history.
That's just the West Bank,right?
So they picked probably theworst moment in terms of growing
international pressure onIsrael to come out with that
(43:07):
announcement for their own, Ithink it's fair to say domestic
political reasons, uh, andthat's even before we get to the
issue of gaza, which thisgovernment is very, if nothing
else, consistent.
Uh, this is a war between uhcivilization, and I don't want
to put words in their mouth, butyou, you know non-civilization,
(43:27):
right, and that if you'residing against Israel, then
you're siding with Hamas, you'residing with the terrorists, etc
.
Etc.
Etc.
And this is a constant refrain,not just in recent weeks but
since the beginning of the war.
But now it hits a lot less, true, hits a lot less, um, true, and
(43:55):
I will say, uh, you know,growing international pressure.
It's like the hemingway line,like you know how did you go
bankrupt?
Gradually and then suddenly, soyou know, international
pressure was, was growing, butreally, um, I think over the
past month it's suddenly becomea lot more acute, I think for
precisely the reasons we weretalking about earlier, not just
the humanitarian situation,which has gotten worse and,
(44:19):
through this new aid scheme,probably won't get any better
quickly enough, but also thefact that, uh, we're in the
midst of a renewed israelioffensive.
So it's both the the promiseslash threat of this government
to continue the war, and I don'twant to say forever, but at
least for months longer, untiltotal victory is achieved we
(44:42):
don't need to belabor the pointCoupled with the real difficult
situation inside Gaza.
I think a lot of even friendlygovernments have suddenly lost
patience, and so we're seeingthe results.
And you know, the UK halted newfree trade negotiations with
Israel.
I mean, we talked about it lasttime with Shira and Michael,
(45:05):
but you know, france and the EUare looking again at the
association agreement thatIsrael has with the EU.
Again, these are major things,right, israel is, the EU is
Israel's biggest trading partner.
It's not the USs, um is thisentering?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
the discourse at all uh this entering israel's
discourse, because I will say Ithink that many sort of their
first inclination is to scoff atthis a little bit.
Um, in part because I thinkthat when israelis hear
criticism of the IDF andmilitary actions in particular,
their inclination is to justrespond with but this is what
(45:44):
Hamas did, right, and I thinkthat their friends in the EU
know what Hamas did and agreewith them on that, but don't
feel that it excuses everythingthat Israel does, and I think
that's a bit of a disconnect.
So I'm curious how a lot ofthis criticism lands with
Israelis.
Do they feel like the EU justdoesn't get it, europeans just
don't get the situation we're in, canadians just don't get the
situation that we're goingthrough right now, and they
(46:06):
can't relate.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
I think a lot of Israelis will have that emotion.
That's their initial reactionto any criticism, especially
after October 7th.
And look, israel is fighting avicious, vicious enemy still in
Hamas.
But to go back to formerPresident Joe Biden, right, what
did he and his people say inthe early stages of the war?
(46:29):
You have all of our support ingoing after Hamas for the awful,
awful October 7th attack.
But it matters how you do it.
The way you go about prosecutingthis war matters, matters
greatly, and previous Israeligovernments, I think, were more
(46:51):
attuned to that in terms of theinternational legitimacy and
diplomatic context within whichyou're fighting any war, not
just this particular war, andthere was a lot of credit
extended to Israel for over ayear.
Right, we're 20 months intothis.
By one count I think there wasan article in one of the Israeli
newspapers by one count, thisis Israel's longest war ever.
(47:16):
And again, a very, very um highdeath toll on the gaza side,
coupled with the very difficulthumanitarian conditions, coupled
with there's no real kind ofend in sight, because the
objective is total victory.
And you, yes, patience has onething, so I think a lot of
(47:46):
people in Israel don't want tohear it.
We're going until the end,total victory.
I think a growing number ofIsraelis do understand what the
Europeans and, by the way, it'snot just the Europeans but what
people outside of Israel aresaying, and I'm actually in the
process of reporting a pieceabout I don't want to call it
(48:07):
the growing anti-war movement,but you hear and see things in
Israel and in Israeli discourseand in Israeli media in recent
weeks that you never saw inrecent weeks, that you never saw
before over the past 20 monthsever, because it wouldn't have
been acceptable, people wouldn'thave felt comfortable.
(48:28):
I was at an anti-war march thismorning, um, near near the idf
headquarters in the kiriya, andyou had, you know, not a massive
number of people, you had maybethree dozen people.
More were coming.
But they're marching in broaddaylight with kind of stop the
war and refuse service and evena picture of a, of a Gazan child
(48:52):
who was killed during the war,and they're marching through
central tel aviv and they'regoing to be marching down to, uh
, the gaza border.
Now, again, this you wouldn'thave seen this and even they
they told me you wouldn't haveseen this, uh, in the first
months of the war.
I don't, I don't think youwould have seen this a year ago.
Uh, and that's just one example, you you see it in the media
(49:13):
more discussion not just of theinternational outcry and the
international pressure, but alsothe toll on the Gazan side,
which you never saw onmainstream Israeli media before.
So it is changing.
How widespread is it?
How decisive it is?
I don't want to overstate it,but it's definitely there.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Would you say mainstream media is beginning to
show images of Gaza, becausethat's something we've spoken up
before, really doesn't, has notpreviously existed on news
channels in Israel.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
It has, and I don't want to kind of preempt the
article that I hope will comeout soon.
but I'll give it to you, don'tworry it, don't worry, no,
people should subscribe to thefinancial times and definitely
read it, uh.
But no, look, there was a reporton channel 12, uh, a week or
(50:07):
two ago, and it was initiallybilled, as you know, growing
international pressure on israel.
But then the, the reporter, whodid a very good job with this
package, got into the reasonswhy and at one point they had a
british tv correspondent get upthere and say you know, the
israeli media is not aware ofthe images that the world sees,
(50:30):
that is not relayed in theisraeli media, right?
So essentially, it's kind ofthis meta, meta moment where an
israeli tv channel biggest one,12, in its kind of primetime
nightly newscast, was running anarticle with a foreign TV
correspondent telling theIsraeli public that it didn't
actually understand what wasactually happening in Gaza,
(50:51):
along with, by the way, imagesthat were being played in
British TV and other foreign TVchannels.
So again, you wouldn't haveseen that a year ago.
You wouldn't have seen it ayear ago.
And the other example that Imay use in the piece hopefully
the editors don't, which we willstill all read.
(51:13):
And if you're a journalistlistening to this, you have to
wait until I'm going to embargothis information in this episode
until my article comes out.
No, there was a.
There was a.
Ynet is the biggest online newsoutlet.
It's basically the online armof Idiota Honot, a big daily
newspaper, and again, like aweek or two ago, the top story
(51:36):
with a big image said you know,the UN says you know, people are
starving in Gaza, or somethingto that effect, with an image of
desperate Gazans holding upempty pots waiting in line for,
I guess, at a communal kitchen.
We're seeing that Not at thetop of YNet, not at the bottom
of YNet beforehand, and so Ithink that's a deliberate
(52:01):
editorial decision by variousoutlets.
Again, shouldn't overstate itIn other outlets you'll never
see it and the rhetoric and theimages are very different, but
it's there in a way that wasn'tthe case before.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah.
So, speaking of breaking points, let's turn inwards to the
domestic situation in Israel,because we've been hearing,
probably for at least months, ifnot years, the potential of the
Haredi draft controversy, orlack of draft controversy, being
a potential issue that will endthis coalition's rule.
(52:36):
Now there are reports that allthree of the Haredi parties are
threatening to leave thecoalition.
Conventional wisdom tells usthat Netanyahu will always
manage to hold his coalitiontogether, more or less so is
that still the case?
What do you think's happeninghere?
You know I love yourpredictions of domestic politics
in Israel.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, although predictions about domestic
politics in Israel usually falls, because anything is possible
really.
I mean, you know, it's apolitical system with very
little rules and even lessscruples and morals, so anything
is literally possible.
But yeah, you're right.
Today, with the ultimatums atleast put forward semi-publicly
(54:05):
by most of the ultra-Orthodoxparties to Net voted with the
Netanyahu coalition in protestat the fact today take motion,
uh, set to be voted on next weekand to actually dissolve
parliament and go to snapelections now between between
now and next week.
It's an infinite amount of timein Israeli politics, so it's a
threat that the ultra-Orthodoxparties put on the table, I
(54:28):
think, to focus Netanyahu's mindto find them a solution.
It may also focus other mindsinside the government and also,
by the way, outside thegovernment in the right-wing
political base, to say okay, uh,we don't want to lose this
ruling coalition and so we haveto find some kind of way through
(54:49):
this.
Um, I won't get into the weedsof what may or may not happen,
but I will say you are going tostay out of the weeds well, I'm
doing it for free benefit andalso for the benefit of our
listeners.
I will say that I don't believethe ultra orthodox will actually
topple this government.
Uh, there's a great phrase inHebrew Nothing good is
(55:09):
threatening them with anelection, and especially after
an election.
All the polls show that thecurrent components of the
Netanyahu ruling coalition willnot fare that well and that the
next components of the Netanyahuruling coalition will not fare
that well, and that the nextgovernment may not even include
the Haredis, the ultra-Orthodoxright.
So if you're trying to keepyour exemption, the last thing
(55:30):
you want to do is facilitate thevoting in of a center-left,
center-right government withoutyou that will actually pass a
real law.
So I assume, like you said,netanyahu will find some kind of
way to finesse this left,center, right government without
you that will actually pass areal law.
So I assume, like you said,netanyahu will find some kind of
way to finesse this and kind ofkick the can down the road.
But there is one major caveatif netanyahu himself decides
(55:53):
that it's in his interest toactually have this issue trigger
an election, that may besomething different.
Now again, he has the sameissue right.
If he goes to an election.
It may be a major problem forhim but he may make the
calculation that it's better togo to an election number one,
(56:14):
according to his timing.
Number two, not to have thisboondoggle of allowing the
Haredis not to serve in themilitary over him.
Right, because it's a major.
You know 80% of the public herewants him to serve.
It's only kind of Netanyahuhimself and the ultra-Orthodox
sector that doesn't want itright?
(56:34):
Even the coup voters want theultra-Orthodox to serve.
Definitely the settlers.
The Smotrich-Benvir crowd wantthe ultra-Orthodox to serve.
Definitely the settlers.
The Smotrich-Benvir crowd wantthe ultra-Orthodox to serve
because from their perspectivethey also are good, pious Jews
that uphold all the mitzvot andstudy and seminaries and the
like.
But they also serve theultra-Orthodox don't Hugely
unpopular even insideNetanyahu's unpolitical base.
(56:55):
So that's number two why doeshe want to be taught about if
I'm going into an election,especially during wartime?
Number three, most importantly,the uh.
The next best thing to actuallywinning a war and attaining
total victory is running in anelection promising to attain
(57:16):
total victory.
So you essentially go to war.
You go go to war.
Yes, you're definitely going tocontinue still going to war,
but you're going to win anelection where you promise your
voters hey, if you keep me inthe prime minister's office, I'm
going to win this war for you,and if you kick me out, it's
going to be well.
He said it last week surrenderdefeat.
(57:37):
How did he put it in theKnesset?
He said you know, if you guysspeaking to the opposition, if
you guys were around in 1948, wewould have lost the war.
You know, forgetting who wasactually the leader of the
country Labor, socialist and notthe right wing, anyway.
So we don't know what willhappen.
(57:59):
It's a major internal domesticpolitical crisis.
My sense is that they'll findsome way to muddle through, but
with the caveat that, you know,if Netanyahu does actually want
to go to snap elections, he hasthat option and could facilitate
that.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
But I think these are threats made by the Haredis
nothing more and everyone knowsonly a sucker bets against
Netanyahu, so I don't have anyassumptions Politically.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
Yeah, it also occurred to me a little before
we started recording that thiscrisis may have been
manufactured by Netanyahu togive him an alibi to fire
certain people to pave the wayfor, um, a draft law that's more
to the heart is liking, and sohe'll use that as an alibi.
(58:52):
Hey, you know, I didn't have achoice.
Right my back was against thewall.
I know this is super unpopular,but it's either passing this
draft law that the howard islike or total defeat, losing
power, the quote-unquote left.
Uh, regaining power, um, againremains to be seen, and maybe
our listeners and viewers, asalways, may be a lot smarter
(59:15):
than we are when this comes out.
But uh, I think next week we'llprobably have a good indication
of where we're heading.
There's a possibility that thismove and motion to dissolve the
Knesset may not even come to avote.
So you know it's a big issuetoday.
I know I had to report on it,but come next week it will no
(59:37):
longer be an issue for onereason or another and we'll be
on to the next crisis, domesticor otherwise.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Can't wait to see what's in store for us next week
.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Only good things.
We have to remain hopeful.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Always hopeful.
Have a good week, Mary.
Speaker 2 (59:56):
Thanks, janine, thank you.
Shalom and welcome to Israel Policy Pod.
I'm your host, shani Reichman,the Director of Strategic
Initiatives and of IPF Fatid atIsrael Policy Forum, and I'm
joined by Neri Zilber, ajournalist based in Tel Aviv and
policy advisor at Israel PolicyForum.
How's it going, neri?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi, shani, it's great to see you, since we're now,
just to remind everyone, a videopodcast, so you're coming to me
live and direct from MidtownManhattan.
It's great to see you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yeah, you survived those rocket attacks from Syria
this week.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
The Syria attacks I mean they hit the Golan Heights
but the Houthis still keeping uson our toes.
Thankfully, none have gottenthrough since that really bad
one.
What over a month ago that hitin the vicinity of Ben-Gurion
and messed up a lot of theforeign carriers arriving and
departing from Israel?
Look, there are worse issues inthe world, but it is a major
(00:57):
issue here still.
But the Houthis are there.
The Gaza war obviously stillongoing, which we'll get into in
detail, trust me.
But I actually, since I have youhere, shani, I wanted to use
this opportunity to give a lotof our listeners and now
watchers, who come from all overthe world, not necessarily from
the United States, notnecessarily from even the
(01:18):
American Jewish community, butreally all over the world,
whether Europe, the Middle EastAsia and we get a lot of
responses from all over theworld, whether Europe, the
Middle East Asia, and we get alot of responses from all over
the globe to give us a sense ofwhat it's like for the American
Jewish community these days,given the horrific, horrific
attack over the weekend inBoulder, colorado, and that came
two weeks after the heinousterror attack in downtown DC
(01:43):
that killed the two Israeliembassy staffers, yaron
Lashinsky and Sarah MilgramReally heinous.
And that obviously came afterwhat was it?
The attempted arson ofPennsylvania Governor Josh
Shapiro's gubernatorial mansion.
So I'm going to turn the tableson you from the start, shani.
(02:05):
You usually ask me what it'slike on the front lines here in
Israel, given the past 20 monthsof war.
What is it like from yourvantage point?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Sure.
So just to give a briefoverview, on Sunday there's an
organization called Run fortheir Lives, which is a walk or
a run to bring awareness to thehostages campaign to bring them
home from Hamas captivity.
And on Sunday there was a walkthat probably happens every
Sunday almost around the countryin Boulder, and it was attacked
(02:37):
.
There were mostly elderlypeople in their 70s and 80s who
were attacked.
One of them was a Holocaustsurvivor, attacked by Mohammed
Soleiman, an Egyptian whoarrived in the States on a
tourist visa and overstayed it,and he lit these people on fire.
You can see videos of themactually going up in flames.
He was planning this attack forover a year, they said, and he
yelled end Zionists.
(02:58):
He told the police he wanted toquote kill all Zionist people
and wish that they were dead.
So, regardless of any cautionsfrom the police, it's very clear
this was motivated by hatredfor Israel and is another
attempt of many to import theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict
into the United States, which issomething we caution against
(03:18):
very regularly.
And of course, it's coming justtwo weeks after an American Jew
and Israeli were killed at theDC Jewish Museum and I have to
be honest, I'm not confidentthat those outside of the Jewish
community really get it orunderstand that this is pure
anti-Semitism and an activedecision to hold all Jews
accountable for the conflicthappening in Gaza right now.
(03:40):
And I say this for a fewreasons.
First of all, I've spoken tomany people as you know, my job
is mostly talking to peopleabout this and nobody's hearing
from friends outside of theJewish community, nobody saying
how are you doing Checking?
in yeah, really across the board.
I mean, I hear once or two I'veasked at events that I that I
speak at too, so I have a prettylarge sample size, pretty large
(04:04):
sample size.
You hear politicians weighingin, of course, because that's
what's required of them, butbeyond that, I don't think
people see it as attack on Jews.
They just see it as one otherpiece of the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict, which I think is aproblem.
And you can add to that themedia reports of the museum
shooting routinely list them asIsraeli embassy staff, despite
the fact that they were targetedpurely for being at a Jewish
museum event.
(04:24):
There is no evidence that theterrorists actually knew that
they were Israeli diplomaticstaff at all.
Them being targeted had nothingto do with their work status as
part of the Israeli foreignministry and everything to do
with them being associated withJews and the Jewish museum and
Jewish event.
Ok.
So I think that that'ssomething that's outside of the
discourse beyond the Jewishcommunity and right now every
(04:46):
Jewish organization I know,including ours, is having very
serious conversations about howwe're going to secure our events
, how we're going to keep ourstaff safe, how we're going to
keep our constituents and ourmembers safe.
We're getting tons of questionsfrom people saying what are you
doing to make sure that yourspaces are safe for us?
And it's a very scary time forall of us to make sure that your
spaces are safe for us, andit's a very scary time for all
(05:07):
of us.
I think that at this point, mostAmerican Jews recognize that we
will always be at risk as longas we are associated with Jewish
spaces, as long as we arevisibly Jewish, and that's just
one of the unfortunatecircumstances of our identity
here that we have to grapplewith.
There are certainly talks ofshould we keep going to Jewish
(05:28):
events, but I don't take themseriously because after the
terror attack in Pittsburgh youmight remember 2018, the Tree of
Life synagogue a massiveshooting in a synagogue.
There was a show up for Shabbatcampaign.
Synagogues were packed.
I remember very vividly beingon the Upper West Side and going
to shul with a line around theblock to go to Kabbalah Shabbat
services.
I promise that's never happenedbefore.
(05:49):
So I think the headline here is, since you're a journalist,
jews are going to keep beingJewish, as we have always done,
regardless of what's happening.
But it's important to say thatI do think it could get worse
that I do think it could getworse.
And while many protests againstIsrael use legitimate slogans
(06:10):
and are not anti-Semitic and arereally just about, you know,
justice for Palestinians as theysee it, there are also many,
many, many who chant toglobalize the intifada, to find
justice and end the war by anymeans necessary.
These are direct quotes tobring the war home and these
slogans are very clearincitement of violence, and this
(06:36):
is our.
This is us seeing thosetranslate into action in real
time and denying the connectionbetween the incitement and the
use of really horrific language.
Just the only way that we canactually nip this problem in the
bud is by recognizing that andsaying this is actually the
manifestation of anti-Semitismin 2025.
This is what it looks like.
So that's it for my side of theocean.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Very well put, Shani, and I am curious.
I mean, obviously I wanted toget your perspective on this,
but you're also very uniquelypositioned because not only are
you an American Jew working foran American Jewish organization,
but also IPF's ATEED programliterally is across North
America, so your job is toactually be in touch with the
entire continent and people allover America and even in Canada.
So when you talk aboutincreased security or
trepidation in terms of hostingJewish events, are you not just
(07:40):
IPF, but is the American Jewishcommunity taking active measures
to actually make people feelsafer?
I mean, I'm curious about that.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I must have been invited to two dozen webinars
hosted by different Jewishorganizations the alphabet soup
of organizations, as we call itover the past few weeks.
People are taking it veryseriously.
We work in partnership.
That's one of our mainorganizational values here.
I work with dozens, or,honestly, over 100 organizations
in the Jewish community acrossthis country and across Canada.
(08:11):
Everybody's taking thisseriously.
Everybody's thinking andtalking about this constantly.
I see immediate changes.
As I said earlier, you're notgoing to eliminate the risk.
This event was very high profileat the DC Jewish Museum.
Ok, there I genuinely believethere was nothing they could
have done better.
Ok, there was enormous securityfor this event.
So if an event like this thatwas super high profile, that had
(08:34):
a ton of security I'm sure thecapital police were involved in
securing the location ahead oftime OK, there's very little you
can do at this point.
No-transcript.
(09:05):
It was an AJC event.
I am confident they did theirdue diligence.
I don't question that for asecond.
There is at a certain point.
You know, it's not on us andour community to have massive
high walls and not allow anybodyinto our spaces.
It's on everyone else to ensurethis type of violent
anti-Semitism doesn't exist inour country doesn't run rampant.
(09:25):
So the burden being placed onus in America to be, you know,
having to wall ourselves off andhave armed guards outside of
every Jewish preschool and everyJCC and every community center,
is part of the problem.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Well, those armed guards have been there for years
, if not decades, for this veryreason.
But, given the events of whatjust the last few weeks, like
you said, hopefully theauthorities, whether local and
even above local, are doing whatthey need to be doing to nip
this in the bud and, like yousaid, remarkable that it's
(10:00):
happening in America in 2025,but maybe not that remarkable
that it's happening in Americain 2025.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Unfortunately not.
I just want to make clear thereis a connection between how
we're seeing anti-Israelactivists behave and the things
we're hearing them say andwhat's happening here and
recognizing that rhetoric.
It doesn't mean shutting downprotests, but it means
acknowledging that there's aconnection here.
We need to be calling that partout.
We need to be calling out theincitement before we end up
(10:30):
having to just call out theviolence that occurs as a result
of it.
Right?
So that's what I'm hoping tosee more from politicians to
across the political spectrum.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
Politicians and regular folk.
And regular folk Hopefully yeahand look.
I would love to see that, but Iwon't hold my breath no, but
that's even more concerning whenyou said that, um, I've heard
similar things, uh, not inrecent weeks, but going back to
um earlier moments in the war,uh, where people didn't reach
(11:03):
out to their jewish sometimes,in many cases even very close
friends to see how they weredoing in the aftermath of
October 7th.
Um, either they weren't aware,or they didn't care, or they I
mean, let's not sugarcoat itMaybe they thought Israel had it
coming, uh, for whatever reason, and uh, uh, I've heard many
(11:24):
cases of uh friendships um beingbeing severed because of that,
because, uh, there was no, therewas no outreach, there was no
empathy and compassion.
Um, again, as we try to do ummost of the time, if not all the
time, to have empathy andcompassion for all sides,
without getting too too deepinto it.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I am someone who spends their whole day
organizing spaces for youngAmerican Jews to talk about
Israel and theIsraeli-Palestinian conflict.
I cannot emphasize enough howmany people showed up after
October 7th saying I have neverwanted to talk or think about
Israel.
But I was pretty shocked whennot a single person called to
(12:07):
check in on me, despite me maybebeing Israeli, maybe having
tons of friends and family inIsrael, but at the very least
being a Jew.
So yes, to everything that youwere saying, it's very similar
now.
But on the one hand, I canunderstand why people sat there
and said, ok, it happened faraway, it's in Israel.
It's not my business to reachout to every Jewish person I
(12:31):
know, even though perhaps it was, but now it's happening on our
shores.
So there's, really nojustification for not reaching
out With that, maybe we shouldmove to your side of the world,
Neri.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
To my side of the ledger, absolutely, and look,
I'll just tie up the Americanside of this conversation and
transition to the Israeli sideof this conversation by saying
look, criticizing Israeligovernment policy is what many
of us do on a daily basis andthat's fine, that's legitimate.
(13:00):
What isn't legitimate isanti-Semitic rhetoric, behavior,
slogans and definitely terrorattacks against people just
because they happen to be Jewishin America or anywhere else.
Major difference, majordifference.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Let's talk about the humanitarian aid situation in
Gaza, because I think a lot ofwhat we're seeing in the States
is reactions to what people areseeing on the ground, and the
headlines here are dominated forseveral weeks by the rollout of
the Gaza HumanitarianFoundation and massive I think
miscommunications is probablythe way to describe it, or
(13:40):
debacles is another way that arecoming out of the situation on
the ground, as these conflictingreports emerge from the IDF,
from major media outlets.
What is the purpose of this newmechanism?
Why does this new initiativeexist, that is, to distribute
aid without the United Nations,without traditional NGOs?
(14:02):
How did this emerge?
Speaker 2 (14:04):
So to go start from the very beginning and we'll get
into the controversysurrounding this new aid model
and really the controversysurrounding the humanitarian
situation in Gaza.
Look for most of the war,israel whether the government or
the military has said, claimed,stated consistently that UN and
(14:26):
other international aidagencies moving aid into Gaza
were helping prop up andperpetuate Hamas rule and
governance in the strip and thatHamas was siphoning aid for its
own fighters, its own fighters'families, and then also taking
aid to sell in the black marketand through that, whether
(14:52):
financially and otherwise, evenkind of based, like socially, to
control the population, thatthis aid mechanism through the
UN, was elongating the war andthat Israel wasn't able to
seriously put a dent into Hamasrule in the strip.
Now, going back, I don't wantto say to the beginning of the
war, but damn near in the earlystages of the war, definitely
over a year ago, there werevarious proposals, ideas
(15:15):
floating around inside theIsraeli system about how you
create an aid distributionmechanism that you could better
control and that you essentiallyseparate between the population
and Hamas.
And, long story short, theyultimately landed, a few months
ago, on this idea of aiddistribution hubs located all
(15:39):
across Gaza, essentially beingrun by US private security firms
.
Another word for it ismercenaries, although they don't
like that word, not one bit.
But essentially it's privatesecurity, ex-us military,
ex-whatever other military inthe world that are actually well
(16:01):
in the private sector.
So that was the idea to havethese aid distribution hubs set
up all across Gaza, and theywould also be guarded by the
Israeli military, by the IDF,and through that you have more
control over how aid isdistributed around the Gaza
Strip.
Now this will be, I think, aconstant theme of this episode.
(16:21):
If you talk to UN officials andother aid agencies, they'll say
you know, the IDF has nevershowed us actual evidence of
systematic siphoning and lootingof aid by Hamas.
That's the standard line, bythe way, according to my own
reporting and checks.
(16:42):
I think that's accurate, thatthe idea.
I don't think has ever come andsaid OK, this is happening at
this point, this is how muchthey stole, to actually show
evidence to, let's say, moresympathetic UN and other
international officials.
Hamas hasn't just been sittingthere for 20 months and just
letting its own fighters andleaders and families starve or
(17:07):
not have enough aid to actuallysustain themselves and their
fight.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
So I do believe that Hamas has definitely been
looking out for number one,number one being Hamas.
But why hasn't the IDF beenable to produce this evidence?
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Well, this also might be a constant theme of this
conversation in this episode.
Why?
Maybe bureaucratic inertia?
Maybe just professional kind ofincompetence?
Maybe this is a constantrefrain they don't want to give
up intelligence, assets ormethods?
They don't want to give upintelligence, assets or methods.
(17:43):
But really, if Israel isclaiming that there's systematic
, widespread looting by Hamasgunmen of aid convoys that go
into the Gaza Strip, surely youcan show that.
And if you remember back to thebeginning of the war, there
were instances where you had aidtrucks going into the Strip.
You saw like gunmen on them,but that's one instance of,
(18:08):
however, thousands of trucksthat have gone in into Gaza.
So again, both things can betrue.
You can, on the one hand, say,yes, there hasn't been evidence
provided of systematic,widespread looting by Hamas.
That widespread, systematiclooting may exist.
And yet and this is also maybea constant refrain during this
(18:28):
episode does it really matter,right?
If the humanitarian situationis so dire inside the Strip and
your stated purpose is to goafter Hamas and your stated
purpose, at least from theIsraeli government on down, is
we're not going after the Gassanpopulation, then you can't just
starve them.
You have to provide aid, youhave to facilitate aid.
(18:52):
And it's not enough, as the IDFhas been doing, just to kind of
drop off trucks or pallets orcontainers of aid on the Gassan
side of the border crossing andexpect the UN and the other aid
agencies just to kind of get itdone without actual coordination
with the IDF, without some kindof guarantee that their trucks
(19:15):
and their people are safe.
So again, it's not me sayingthis.
I've said this, I think, inprevious podcasts that the
situation in terms of thehumanitarian conditions in Gaza
are dire.
Bibi Netanyahu said so himselfa month ago when he said that
Gaza was nearing the red line interms of the situation and that
he had to facilitate thereentry of aid, by the way, via
(19:39):
the old UN model.
So that was Bibi Net, yahoo'ssaying the situation was pretty
dire.
You also had Donald Trumpsaying you know, people are
starving in Gaza and we have todo something about it.
I think his special envoy, steveWoodcuff, said you know, there
will not be a humanitariancrisis on Donald Trump's watch
in Gaza.
So that presupposes thatsituation is dire enough that
(20:01):
there is a crisis on our hands.
And yeah, look, the situationbecame a lot worse after the
collapse of the ceasefire inearly March, because these early
government, in its infinitewisdom and I'm being very, very
facetious and sarcastic onpurpose, and I'm being very,
(20:23):
very facetious and sarcastic onpurpose stopped all aid entry
into Gaza starting March 2nd for11 weeks.
For 11 weeks, and they thoughtthat would, I suppose, soften
Hamas's position at thenegotiating table.
They supposed that would leadHamas to break, and all it did
was Did it.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
No.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
I mean we can get into the ceasefire talks maybe
later on, but clearly Hamasdidn't bend on its demand to
essentially end the war inreturn for the hostages and all
it did was make the situation alot worse for two million people
in the Gaza Strip and on top ofthat, heap massive amounts of
international pressure on Israel.
(21:02):
And this is to get to heapmassive amounts of international
pressure on Israel.
And this is to get to yourearlier point.
The headlines that you'reseeing don't do Israel any
favors, to say the least.
So both losses, in both cases,those are losses from Israel's
point of view.
And this went on for 11 weeks.
In the beginning you had peopleIsraeli officials say, well,
(21:22):
they have enough food for sixmonths, because Israel did allow
a lot of aid to go in duringthe two-month ceasefire.
But as our colleague ShiraEfron said, an aid truck is not
exactly an aid truck filled withaid.
An aid truck may be half filledwith aid.
An aid truck may be potatochips.
Again, she follows this a lotcloser than many other people.
(21:43):
But again there was a lot ofaid that went in, but it wasn't
enough to last for months, itwas enough to last for weeks.
And again, that was also aeither miscalibration by Israel
or just willful ignorance byIsraeli officials.
So this brings us to thecurrent moment where you need a
well A, you need aid to go in.
(22:05):
B, if you're Israel, you don'twant it to just go, from their
point of view, to Hamas.
Enter the Gaza HumanitarianFoundation, and I and my
colleagues have done a lot ofreporting on this kind of very
shadowy organization.
I won't get into the weeds ofwho came up with it and who's
(22:25):
running it, but suffice to saythis was an Israeli idea that
was essentially sold to variousAmerican partners, not least
also Trump administrationofficials, who in recent weeks
have definitely gone out thereand tried to sell this idea as
their own, to make it a bit morepalatable to the UN and others.
(22:46):
It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
They would want to take credit for it, given what's
happening.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Well, we'll get into that in just a second how the
first week has been, because theGHF, as it's called, the Gaza
Humanitarian Foundation, startedoperations a little over a week
ago.
But trust me, I'll get to thatin a second, because everyone
has been following that very,very closely, as I'm sure our
listeners are aware.
But essentially the GazaHumanitarian Foundation was a
(23:13):
mechanism by which Israel couldfacilitate aid to Gaza, although
, as Shira and others can tellyou, the ability of this
mechanism, through these aidhubs, to distribute enough aid
to the entire population of Gazawas always in severe doubt.
(23:36):
But number two, from theIsraeli point of view, to do it
and not allow Hamas to benefitfrom it and also to essentially
separate the Gazan populationfrom Hamas.
And also you get into kind ofthese geographic questions about
where these hubs are going tobe located.
They're primarily going to belocated in southern Gaza.
That's a major point ofcontention because that's from
(23:58):
the UN point of view and others.
That's facilitating kind of thedisplacement of the internal
population, to say nothing ofthe fact that you have kind of
armed American securitycontractors kind of running this
.
So that brings us to the pastweek.
And how has it gone?
(24:18):
You may be wondering.
You may be wondering Not great.
And this is also a major pointof contention, because people
here in Israel and also thefoundation itself say you know,
the past week has been asmashing success.
According to their metrics,they've given out over 7 million
meals.
So they count it by mealsbecause they essentially
(24:40):
distribute boxes of notready-made meal it's like it's
food products and which then thepopulation goes and cooks, but
they count it as meals and eachbox is supposed to go to the
head of a household.
I think their latest figure isover 100,000 boxes, which in
(25:03):
theory should mean 100,000families, and each family in
Gaza could be five people ormore.
But again, how do you know thatthe same family hasn't gone
back and taken the same aid?
And again, 100,000 families isnowhere near, doesn't get you
anywhere near 2 million peopleat all, even though the number.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
It's not even close.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Yeah, but that's how they count it.
They count it as 7 millionmeals, so that's a nice kind of
headline.
So from the foundation's pointof view, they obviously have an
interest in promoting successand also from the Israeli point
of view, they have an interestin promoting the success.
You know.
B'tselel Smotrich, the, thefinance minister, said I think
the first or second day of thefoundation's operations, this is
(25:45):
the turning point in the war.
This is the moment that Hamasrule is going to crumble.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, that's bold.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, I mean, you know Smotrich says a lot of
things Doesn't mean they're true.
But look, the problem, the cruxof it, is that over the past
week, uh, I mean we'll get tothe obvious problem in just a
second the fact that peoplelikely were killed, kind of
waiting for these places to open.
But the bigger problem is thatso far they've only opened four
(26:15):
distribution hubs three insouthern gaza, near rafa area,
right, uh, and one one incentral Gaza, in the kind of
Netsarim corridor that's held bythe IDF.
But four in theory, becausesince Friday and we're recording
this, by the way, on Wednesdayevening, tel Aviv time, so since
Friday, only one of those hubshas been opened right, so that's
(26:40):
not nearly enough.
And also it's it'sgeographically, obviously it's
only in that specific area andreally they've only been open
for a few hours in the morninguntil all the boxes are are
claimed and taken um.
And even today, right onwednesday, none of the hubs were
open.
They said it was for kind ofreorganization and logistical
reasons.
But they, they say they'regoing to ramp up um to you know,
(27:05):
increasing numbers of hubs uh,they do well, I think, to get
the four that they've alreadycreated, uh up and running for
what they said in the beginningwas going to be for whatever, 24
hours a day, which is nowherenear what we've seen so far.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
The bigger problem is .
I'm sure you're going to ask meyes, I am going to ask you how
we ended up with reports of IDFsoldiers shooting at, or near or
next to, the civilians going toreceive aid.
There were initial reports.
Those reports were thenretracted.
The IDF, from what I've seen,has actually been very vague
about what actually happened.
So what on earth is going on?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
So I mean, all hyperbole aside, this is both a
major crisis, strategic event,call it what you will.
Since Sunday basically so lastweek, I think the first or
second day of operations you didhave a crowd of Gazans overrun
one of the aid hubs actually theone that has remained open near
(28:11):
Rafah and Tal As-Sultan, nearthe coast.
There may have been someinjuries during that incident,
but no fatalities, as far as weknow.
Sunday, this past Sunday, wewoke up to reports that,
essentially overnight, early,early Sunday morning, dozens of
(28:33):
Gazans were shot at and killedat the aid distribution site
near Rafah, near it.
The reports were unclear.
Okay, how shall I put this?
Uh, the initial reaction fromthe IDF was well, uh, you know,
(28:55):
we're unaware of any kind ofinjuries or fatalities, but
we're still looking into it.
That was at around 10, 11o'clock in the morning.
Now, mind you, the reports ofeventually, it was 31 killed on
Sunday were already running allover the world and essentially,
the IDF finally came out with astatement around, I think, 6 or
(29:18):
7 pm by the way, erev Chag so itwas the eve of Shavuot saying
that, you know, flatly denyingthat they shot at anybody and
that it was.
You know it was due to theirfire that there were any
fatalities.
The IDF then put out a video ofalleged Hamas gunmen shooting
(29:39):
at Ghassan civilians that weresearching for aid.
But that wasn't anywhere nearthe aid distribution hub that
was in Khan Yunis, a separatecity, anywhere near the aid
distribution hub that was inKhan Yunis, a separate city.
The GHF, the foundation, putout these kind of grainy videos
from the aid distribution sitefrom that morning showing people
(30:00):
kind of gathering and takingaid, but again that wasn't time
stamped, there was no indicationright that it was anywhere
during the time of the allegedfiring and shooting and alleged
fatalities.
So again, so irrelevantinformation that is it's meant
irrelevant theory meant todemonstrate that they weren't
(30:22):
responsible for it, but didn'tactually address the issue at
hand and the place and time thatwe're referring to correct and
it also happened 12 hours afterthe initial reports that morning
, right, so it's also just amajor in terms of your strategic
communication strategy, a majorown goal, and the IDF and the
government caught a lot of flackfor it domestically.
(30:44):
Now, again, I'd love to tellyou definitively, one way or the
other, that, yes, the IDF shotand killed 31 people.
Uh, or you know, flat out tellyou that the IDF did not shoot
and kill 31 people.
Um, I can't, and it's not forlack of trying, uh, the weird,
the other weird thing about thisincident just on Sunday was, um
, there was no real footage ofit.
(31:06):
And usually in Gaza you do havevideo footage of, of events,
especially kind of what aresupposed to be mass casualty
events.
So that was also weird, strangeand and gave a lot of us pause.
Okay, you know, maybe, maybethis wasn't, um, how it was
reported from inside gaza, uh,but on the flip side, you had
(31:28):
reports from various hospitalsin southern Gaza of casualties
coming in and with gunshotwounds and the like.
So again, you know, a it's verydifficult for reporters,
especially foreign reporters, toconfirm things when we're not
there.
That's number one.
Number two the IDF did a verypoor job of explaining, or not,
(31:51):
what actually happened there,and the IDF should be aware of
what's happening in Gaza,especially in areas that it's
controlling or it has a truepresence in.
Number three doesn't obviate orpreclude the possibility that
Hamas and other kind of actors,the health ministry in Gaza or
the like, are lying, for obviousreasons, right To get Israel
(32:17):
and also this new aid mechanismessentially delegitimized
worldwide.
And that's where we'reessentially at in terms of the
Sunday event Very weirdsituation.
I'll be very careful with what Isay.
My best guess, and it's only aguess, is that on Sunday morning
(32:37):
, and also, by the way, onMonday morning, and also, by the
way, yesterday morning, onTuesday morning, I think, a lot
of people, thousands of people,because there's only, like we
said, one aid hub that's openfor a limited number of hours,
just in terms of supply, in thisparticular corner of southern
Gaza, that thousands of peoplenext to IDF forces.
(32:59):
Again, it could be, you know,500 meters a kilometer, two
kilometers away from the aid hub, but they're there, kind of
waiting either next to or beyondan IDF checkpoint to access the
(33:22):
aid hub.
That it doesn't.
It's not out of the realm ofpossibility that there may have
been a mad crush and that theIDF, you know, felt the need to
open fire.
Now, in terms of the incidentthat happened on Tuesday, the
IDF said it initially firedwarning shots, but that it did
fire at several suspects not youknow yesterday, on Tuesday, I
(33:46):
think, there were reports of 27people killed in this incident.
So, like I said, both thingscan potentially be true, that
the death toll may have beeninflated, but that the IDF, for
whatever reason, may have openedfire.
(34:12):
Now, just for the record, as wesay, to cover all our bases, the
IDF, at least in terms of thisSunday incident, still denies
that they opened fire on thecivilians.
And again, we just don't know.
We just don't know.
Could it have been other armedactors in the area opening fire
on Gazan civilians?
Could it have been Hamasopening fire on Gazan civilians?
I wouldn't put it past them.
But it goes back to our earlierpoint right, if Hamas were
actually opening fire on thismass group of civilians, where
(34:34):
is the IDF?
And the drones and whateverkind of showing that very
clearly it's a major issue.
So I don't know if it answeredanybody's questions, but this is
essentially what I've beendealing with since the weekend,
trying to figure out whatexactly happened, to the best of
our ability, and not, um again,trying not to to kind of play
(34:57):
favorites, right, you know, ifyou're, if you're trying to be a
professional and report on thesituation, you know, is it out
of their own possibility thatthe idf opened fire?
No, is it out of their ofpossibility that the death toll
from inside Gaza was inflated?
No, is it out of the realm ofpossibility that it might have
been a combination, that Hamasmay have opened fire to cause
(35:19):
this provocation, potentially?
But again, we're doing the bestwe can and you know I'll say
two things.
Number one Israel needs to do amuch better job.
It's not even just Hasbara,right, it just means, okay, like
you have to kind of be a lotmore proactive in what you're
(35:39):
putting out there.
Okay, we'll be right back afterthis brief message.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
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(36:04):
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Speaker 2 (36:45):
So that's the first point.
Second point, and it maybespeaks to the bigger moment in
this now 20-month war, israeland people who support Israel,
not only, but Israel and theworld, are dealing with two
completely different conflictson a whole array of issues,
(37:06):
right From the GHF, the new aidscheme being a wild success, to
it being a chaotic, umboondoggle, shall we say, during
its first week.
Uh to the actual objectivehumanitarian conditions inside
the strip.
Uh, how good, slash bad, arethey?
Uh to the fact, you know, we'renow hearing via the idf, but
(37:30):
also from various governmentofficials, uh, hamas rule is
crumbling finally inside thegatha strip.
Is it really?
Is it not?
Um, you know?
And also, uh, the legitimacy andjustification for continuing
with the war, and maybe we'lltouch on it in a second, but
just the growing internationalwar, and maybe we'll touch on it
(37:51):
in a second, but just thegrowing international pressure,
slash condemnation of israeljust in the past two weeks, uh,
like nothing we've seen, um,since since the beginning of the
war.
So it's really kind of these twoparallel universes and, uh, it
was really encapsulated, uh,since sunday, by the fact that
you talk to an Israeli and evenif you watch Israeli media,
(38:13):
they're convinced Hamas openedfire on those people waiting to
get to the aid hub.
And they'll tell you about theclips that the foundation
released and the clip that theIDF released, and you talk to
someone who is not an Israeliofficial and they will give you
a completely differentperspective.
(38:33):
And that's where we are.
And it's very frustrating as ajournalist because something
either happened or did nothappen that Sunday morning and
that Monday morning and thatTuesday morning in southern Gaza
, and it's just reallyfrustrating not to be able to
say one way or the other with100 percent certainty.
Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
That said, we should acknowledge that I think I don't
want to call out the WashingtonPost, but I'm pretty sure it
was them and a bunch of mediaoutlets that initially had
headlines saying the sort ofHamas party line and then
retracted them.
I don't know to what extentthey edited them, but it was
clear that they acknowledgedthat what Hamas was indicating
happened.
What Gazans were sayinghappened was at least not clear
(39:15):
to have happened, even if someversion of it did.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
So, yes, I'm aware of various changes and corrections
.
Look, I'm not going to speakfor my friends at the Washington
Post.
I think they attenuated theheadline because they couldn't
say, like I said, with 100%confirmation that this is
exactly what happened.
But if you read the article,even after the changes, it's the
(39:39):
same basic reporting that theyhad originally in terms of
eyewitness accounts, accountsfrom medics and doctors in
southern Gaza.
So I think they stood by thereporting, but I think the
framing of it was a lot lessadamant.
And also, some of our listenersand watchers may be aware that
the BBC had to take down a videowhich they initially claimed
(40:00):
was from the incident, I believeon Sunday, and it turned out
that it wasn't from thatincident, wasn't from that
moment or location, but thatthey still stood by their
reporting in terms of theoverall event right, even though
they kind of withdrew thatparticular clip.
(40:21):
And again it goes back to whatI just said.
These are two parallelrealities with regard to this
one war, and never the twainshall meet.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, thinking more about how those outside of
Israel are viewing things.
Inside Israel they're verydifferently.
You mentioned earlier thegrowing international pressure
on Israel, obviously thebeginning of this war.
Israel's allies around theworld, not just the United
States and Canada, but certainlyacross Europe.
We're really standing shoulderto shoulder with Israel,
recognizing the need for Israelto go to war.
(40:55):
Let's say At this point that isfar from the case and we're
seeing increasingly particularlyEuropean countries we've got
Canada, canada, that list comingout and saying it's time to end
and I don't know if the aid isthe aid component of all this is
playing into it as well.
But tell us more about who'scoming out with statements and
(41:16):
what does pressure on Israelactually look like beyond just
statements?
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, I mean, if you want to give, if you want me to
give you a list of thegovernments and formerly very
supportive governments that havecome out with very harsh
statements and even actions, andjust in the past two weeks, uh,
we'll be here, we'll be hereall night, um, but look all
kidding aside, it is governmentslike the new german government
(41:41):
and the right-wing italiangovernment and the british
government, and, um, france andcanada and France and Canada.
These aren't exactly bastionsor well-known kind of
anti-Israel either politiciansor governments or even countries
.
Right, there are other, shallwe say, more well-known and more
(42:01):
say knee-jerk, knee-jerk,anti-israel in general, and
especially since the beginningof the war.
These aren't it, these aren'tit.
And so this criticism and it'seven more than criticism at this
point, it's condemnation, it'scoming from friends and I think
(42:24):
a different Israeli governmentwould maybe take it a little
more on board.
This Israeli government is kindof steering into the skid.
Uh, it's always yeah on mostissues, right, and not even just
in gaza, right.
We saw, uh, the announcementlate last week of uh 22 new
settlements, actual entire newsettlements across the west bank
.
Uh, they're saying that.
(42:46):
Um, the idea that france andother governments may recognize
a palest Palestinian state it'llbe how they put it a state on
paper that will be thrown intothe wastebasket of history.
That's just the West Bank,right?
So they picked probably theworst moment in terms of growing
international pressure onIsrael to come out with that
(43:07):
announcement for their own, Ithink it's fair to say domestic
political reasons, uh, andthat's even before we get to the
issue of gaza, which thisgovernment is very, if nothing
else, consistent.
Uh, this is a war between uhcivilization, and I don't want
to put words in their mouth, butyou, you know non-civilization,
(43:27):
right, and that if you'residing against Israel, then
you're siding with Hamas, you'residing with the terrorists, etc
.
Etc.
Etc.
And this is a constant refrain,not just in recent weeks but
since the beginning of the war.
But now it hits a lot less, true, hits a lot less, um, true, and
(43:55):
I will say, uh, you know,growing international pressure.
It's like the hemingway line,like you know how did you go
bankrupt?
Gradually and then suddenly, soyou know, international
pressure was, was growing, butreally, um, I think over the
past month it's suddenly becomea lot more acute, I think for
precisely the reasons we weretalking about earlier, not just
the humanitarian situation,which has gotten worse and,
(44:19):
through this new aid scheme,probably won't get any better
quickly enough, but also thefact that, uh, we're in the
midst of a renewed israelioffensive.
So it's both the the promiseslash threat of this government
to continue the war, and I don'twant to say forever, but at
least for months longer, untiltotal victory is achieved we
(44:42):
don't need to belabor the pointCoupled with the real difficult
situation inside Gaza.
I think a lot of even friendlygovernments have suddenly lost
patience, and so we're seeingthe results.
And you know, the UK halted newfree trade negotiations with
Israel.
I mean, we talked about it lasttime with Shira and Michael,
(45:05):
but you know, france and the EUare looking again at the
association agreement thatIsrael has with the EU.
Again, these are major things,right, israel is, the EU is
Israel's biggest trading partner.
It's not the USs, um is thisentering?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
the discourse at all uh this entering israel's
discourse, because I will say Ithink that many sort of their
first inclination is to scoff atthis a little bit.
Um, in part because I thinkthat when israelis hear
criticism of the IDF andmilitary actions in particular,
their inclination is to justrespond with but this is what
(45:44):
Hamas did, right, and I thinkthat their friends in the EU
know what Hamas did and agreewith them on that, but don't
feel that it excuses everythingthat Israel does, and I think
that's a bit of a disconnect.
So I'm curious how a lot ofthis criticism lands with
Israelis.
Do they feel like the EU justdoesn't get it, europeans just
don't get the situation we're in, canadians just don't get the
situation that we're goingthrough right now, and they
(46:06):
can't relate.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
I think a lot of Israelis will have that emotion.
That's their initial reactionto any criticism, especially
after October 7th.
And look, israel is fighting avicious, vicious enemy still in
Hamas.
But to go back to formerPresident Joe Biden, right, what
did he and his people say inthe early stages of the war?
(46:29):
You have all of our support ingoing after Hamas for the awful,
awful October 7th attack.
But it matters how you do it.
The way you go about prosecutingthis war matters, matters
greatly, and previous Israeligovernments, I think, were more
(46:51):
attuned to that in terms of theinternational legitimacy and
diplomatic context within whichyou're fighting any war, not
just this particular war, andthere was a lot of credit
extended to Israel for over ayear.
Right, we're 20 months intothis.
By one count I think there wasan article in one of the Israeli
newspapers by one count, thisis Israel's longest war ever.
(47:16):
And again, a very, very um highdeath toll on the gaza side,
coupled with the very difficulthumanitarian conditions, coupled
with there's no real kind ofend in sight, because the
objective is total victory.
And you, yes, patience has onething, so I think a lot of
(47:46):
people in Israel don't want tohear it.
We're going until the end,total victory.
I think a growing number ofIsraelis do understand what the
Europeans and, by the way, it'snot just the Europeans but what
people outside of Israel aresaying, and I'm actually in the
process of reporting a pieceabout I don't want to call it
(48:07):
the growing anti-war movement,but you hear and see things in
Israel and in Israeli discourseand in Israeli media in recent
weeks that you never saw inrecent weeks, that you never saw
before over the past 20 monthsever, because it wouldn't have
been acceptable, people wouldn'thave felt comfortable.
(48:28):
I was at an anti-war march thismorning, um, near near the idf
headquarters in the kiriya, andyou had, you know, not a massive
number of people, you had maybethree dozen people.
More were coming.
But they're marching in broaddaylight with kind of stop the
war and refuse service and evena picture of a, of a Gazan child
(48:52):
who was killed during the war,and they're marching through
central tel aviv and they'regoing to be marching down to, uh
, the gaza border.
Now, again, this you wouldn'thave seen this and even they
they told me you wouldn't haveseen this, uh, in the first
months of the war.
I don't, I don't think youwould have seen this a year ago.
Uh, and that's just one example, you you see it in the media
(49:13):
more discussion not just of theinternational outcry and the
international pressure, but alsothe toll on the Gazan side,
which you never saw onmainstream Israeli media before.
So it is changing.
How widespread is it?
How decisive it is?
I don't want to overstate it,but it's definitely there.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Would you say mainstream media is beginning to
show images of Gaza, becausethat's something we've spoken up
before, really doesn't, has notpreviously existed on news
channels in Israel.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
It has, and I don't want to kind of preempt the
article that I hope will comeout soon.
but I'll give it to you, don'tworry it, don't worry, no,
people should subscribe to thefinancial times and definitely
read it, uh.
But no, look, there was a reporton channel 12, uh, a week or
(50:07):
two ago, and it was initiallybilled, as you know, growing
international pressure on israel.
But then the, the reporter, whodid a very good job with this
package, got into the reasonswhy and at one point they had a
british tv correspondent get upthere and say you know, the
israeli media is not aware ofthe images that the world sees,
(50:30):
that is not relayed in theisraeli media, right?
So essentially, it's kind ofthis meta, meta moment where an
israeli tv channel biggest one,12, in its kind of primetime
nightly newscast, was running anarticle with a foreign TV
correspondent telling theIsraeli public that it didn't
actually understand what wasactually happening in Gaza,
(50:51):
along with, by the way, imagesthat were being played in
British TV and other foreign TVchannels.
So again, you wouldn't haveseen that a year ago.
You wouldn't have seen it ayear ago.
And the other example that Imay use in the piece hopefully
the editors don't, which we willstill all read.
(51:13):
And if you're a journalistlistening to this, you have to
wait until I'm going to embargothis information in this episode
until my article comes out.
No, there was a.
There was a.
Ynet is the biggest online newsoutlet.
It's basically the online armof Idiota Honot, a big daily
newspaper, and again, like aweek or two ago, the top story
(51:36):
with a big image said you know,the UN says you know, people are
starving in Gaza, or somethingto that effect, with an image of
desperate Gazans holding upempty pots waiting in line for,
I guess, at a communal kitchen.
We're seeing that Not at thetop of YNet, not at the bottom
of YNet beforehand, and so Ithink that's a deliberate
(52:01):
editorial decision by variousoutlets.
Again, shouldn't overstate itIn other outlets you'll never
see it and the rhetoric and theimages are very different, but
it's there in a way that wasn'tthe case before.
Speaker 1 (52:16):
Yeah.
So, speaking of breaking points, let's turn inwards to the
domestic situation in Israel,because we've been hearing,
probably for at least months, ifnot years, the potential of the
Haredi draft controversy, orlack of draft controversy, being
a potential issue that will endthis coalition's rule.
(52:36):
Now there are reports that allthree of the Haredi parties are
threatening to leave thecoalition.
Conventional wisdom tells usthat Netanyahu will always
manage to hold his coalitiontogether, more or less so is
that still the case?
What do you think's happeninghere?
You know I love yourpredictions of domestic politics
in Israel.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Yeah, although predictions about domestic
politics in Israel usually falls, because anything is possible
really.
I mean, you know, it's apolitical system with very
little rules and even lessscruples and morals, so anything
is literally possible.
But yeah, you're right.
Today, with the ultimatums atleast put forward semi-publicly
(54:05):
by most of the ultra-Orthodoxparties to Net voted with the
Netanyahu coalition in protestat the fact today take motion,
uh, set to be voted on next weekand to actually dissolve
parliament and go to snapelections now between between
now and next week.
It's an infinite amount of timein Israeli politics, so it's a
threat that the ultra-Orthodoxparties put on the table, I
(54:28):
think, to focus Netanyahu's mindto find them a solution.
It may also focus other mindsinside the government and also,
by the way, outside thegovernment in the right-wing
political base, to say okay, uh,we don't want to lose this
ruling coalition and so we haveto find some kind of way through
(54:49):
this.
Um, I won't get into the weedsof what may or may not happen,
but I will say you are going tostay out of the weeds well, I'm
doing it for free benefit andalso for the benefit of our
listeners.
I will say that I don't believethe ultra orthodox will actually
topple this government.
Uh, there's a great phrase inHebrew Nothing good is
(55:09):
threatening them with anelection, and especially after
an election.
All the polls show that thecurrent components of the
Netanyahu ruling coalition willnot fare that well and that the
next components of the Netanyahuruling coalition will not fare
that well, and that the nextgovernment may not even include
the Haredis, the ultra-Orthodoxright.
So if you're trying to keepyour exemption, the last thing
(55:30):
you want to do is facilitate thevoting in of a center-left,
center-right government withoutyou that will actually pass a
real law.
So I assume, like you said,netanyahu will find some kind of
way to finesse this left,center, right government without
you that will actually pass areal law.
So I assume, like you said,netanyahu will find some kind of
way to finesse this and kind ofkick the can down the road.
But there is one major caveatif netanyahu himself decides
(55:53):
that it's in his interest toactually have this issue trigger
an election, that may besomething different.
Now again, he has the sameissue right.
If he goes to an election.
It may be a major problem forhim but he may make the
calculation that it's better togo to an election number one,
(56:14):
according to his timing.
Number two, not to have thisboondoggle of allowing the
Haredis not to serve in themilitary over him.
Right, because it's a major.
You know 80% of the public herewants him to serve.
It's only kind of Netanyahuhimself and the ultra-Orthodox
sector that doesn't want itright?
(56:34):
Even the coup voters want theultra-Orthodox to serve.
Definitely the settlers.
The Smotrich-Benvir crowd wantthe ultra-Orthodox to serve.
Definitely the settlers.
The Smotrich-Benvir crowd wantthe ultra-Orthodox to serve
because from their perspectivethey also are good, pious Jews
that uphold all the mitzvot andstudy and seminaries and the
like.
But they also serve theultra-Orthodox don't Hugely
unpopular even insideNetanyahu's unpolitical base.
(56:55):
So that's number two why doeshe want to be taught about if
I'm going into an election,especially during wartime?
Number three, most importantly,the uh.
The next best thing to actuallywinning a war and attaining
total victory is running in anelection promising to attain
(57:16):
total victory.
So you essentially go to war.
You go go to war.
Yes, you're definitely going tocontinue still going to war,
but you're going to win anelection where you promise your
voters hey, if you keep me inthe prime minister's office, I'm
going to win this war for you,and if you kick me out, it's
going to be well.
He said it last week surrenderdefeat.
(57:37):
How did he put it in theKnesset?
He said you know, if you guysspeaking to the opposition, if
you guys were around in 1948, wewould have lost the war.
You know, forgetting who wasactually the leader of the
country Labor, socialist and notthe right wing, anyway.
So we don't know what willhappen.
(57:59):
It's a major internal domesticpolitical crisis.
My sense is that they'll findsome way to muddle through, but
with the caveat that, you know,if Netanyahu does actually want
to go to snap elections, he hasthat option and could facilitate
that.
Speaker 1 (58:19):
But I think these are threats made by the Haredis
nothing more and everyone knowsonly a sucker bets against
Netanyahu, so I don't have anyassumptions Politically.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
Yeah, it also occurred to me a little before
we started recording that thiscrisis may have been
manufactured by Netanyahu togive him an alibi to fire
certain people to pave the wayfor, um, a draft law that's more
to the heart is liking, and sohe'll use that as an alibi.
(58:52):
Hey, you know, I didn't have achoice.
Right my back was against thewall.
I know this is super unpopular,but it's either passing this
draft law that the howard islike or total defeat, losing
power, the quote-unquote left.
Uh, regaining power, um, againremains to be seen, and maybe
our listeners and viewers, asalways, may be a lot smarter
(59:15):
than we are when this comes out.
But uh, I think next week we'llprobably have a good indication
of where we're heading.
There's a possibility that thismove and motion to dissolve the
Knesset may not even come to avote.
So you know it's a big issuetoday.
I know I had to report on it,but come next week it will no
(59:37):
longer be an issue for onereason or another and we'll be
on to the next crisis, domesticor otherwise.
Speaker 1 (59:45):
Can't wait to see what's in store for us next week
.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Only good things.
We have to remain hopeful.
Speaker 1 (59:53):
Always hopeful.
Have a good week, Mary.
Speaker 2 (59:56):
Thanks, janine, thank you.
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