July 3, 2025 • 37 mins
On this episode of Israel Policy Pod, Alana Zeitchik—Israeli-American advocate, writer, and executive director of The Narrow Bridge Project based in Brooklyn, NY—joins Israel Policy Forum Director Strategic of Initiatives and IPF Atid Shanie Reichman to share the harrowing story of her family members, who were kidnapped by Hamas from Kibbutz Nir Oz on October 7. Most were released in the November 2023 hostage deal, though her cousin’s husband David Cunio and his brother, Ariel Cunio, remain held hostage in Gaza. Alana reflects on the personal toll of the past 21 months, the complex advocacy efforts she’s undertaken across two U.S. administrations, the disconnect between hostage families and much of the American Jewish community, the urgent need to center the hostages’ plight in policy debates, and more.
Follow: @alanalindsay @bring.david.cunio.home @bring.ariel.home
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Shalom and welcome to Israel Policy Pod.
I'm Shini Reichman, theDirector of Strategic
Initiatives and IPF Atid atIsrael Policy Forum, and I'm
based in New York City.
This is a very rare week inwhich we are recording two
podcasts, since we had theopportunity to amplify a very
important voice for you to hearfrom.
I'm going to be joined by AlanaZajic, an Israeli-American
advocate, speaker and writer.
She's written op-eds in the NewYork Times and the Forward,
(00:28):
made countless media appearances, given speeches at the UN and
built quite a social mediacommunity.
While she's at it Now, onOctober 7th, six of her family
members were taken hostage byHamas.
We will talk about her family,who remains in captivity, the
ongoing hostage crisis and theimpediments, both political and
practical, that are preventingits resolution, as well as the
distance and dissonance betweenIsraeli and American Jews in
(00:50):
their advocacy and theiractivism.
Welcome, alana.
Thank you, shani, happy tofinally get you on the podcast
to talk about this.
On October 7th, your cousinSharon Aloni Cuneo and her
husband David Cuneo and theirthree-year-old twins Emma and
Yuli, as well as your cousinDanielle Aloni and her
(01:11):
five-year-old daughter Amelia,were stolen from kibbutz near Oz
in an act of barbaric violenceby Hamas.
Sharon Danielle and their threechildren were released in the
November 2023 hostage deal.
However, your cousin's husband,david Cuneo and his brother
Ariel were left behind and theyremain in captivity.
Today.
Tell me your family's story.
What happened on October 7thand how did you find out about
(01:32):
it?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I was here in New York and I woke up that morning
to, you know, a red alert.
It's not here, but we all knowbecause my family is all very
connected.
We stay connected to everyonein Israel and we knew that they
were missing.
In our cousin's group chat,sharon, who lived on Mir Oz, was
(01:57):
always the first person to tellus that she was okay, and this
Saturday we didn't hear from her.
So we sat around here, mybrothers and I, like in New York
, my family and I here, watchingthe news, waiting for news,
like everyone else except wewere waiting for the news about
people that we love, and duringthat time they were in their
(02:25):
safe room in the Mamad andfighting for their lives.
Because, you know, theterrorists were ravaging the
kibbutz around them, shootingpeople, massacring people,
setting houses and cars on fire,and they set their house on
fire.
So all six of them were in theroom, trying to keep the door
(02:46):
closed, by the way, because theydidn't have a lock on the door,
so they had to actually holdthe door shut to make sure no
one would get in.
And the house went up in flamesaround them and, as time
progressed, smoke filled theroom and they were choking and
they they came to therealization that this was the
(03:07):
end for them, that it was eithergo out the window and be shot
or kidnapped, or stay in theroom and choke to death as their
children were around them.
You know, they weren't able tobreathe.
The girls were screaming Ican't breathe, they can't
breathe.
My cousin Sharon almost passedout and they eventually, you
know, decided that they'd ratherbe shot than choked to death.
(03:31):
At least my cousin Danielledecided that and said to her
daughter you know, I'm sorry,honey, but we're going to die.
That's really what theybelieved when they left that
room and they went through thewindow and were miraculously not
shot but were put onto tractorsand taken to Gaza and bringing
back to me in New York, sittingaround waiting to find out what
(03:53):
was happening to them, one ofthe twins, yuli, surrounded by
terrorists screaming and justtaking them across the border.
Goodbye.
Just seeing my family sweptaway from me, it was deeply
(04:14):
traumatizing, I'll say, to seethat, and at that point we
didn't know if they were aliveor dead or otherwise.
We knew that there was no bloodin the room, because once people
were able to get onto thekibbutz, we knew that in their
house there wasn't any blood andthat was a sign of maybe that
(04:38):
they were still alive.
And I, at that point, became myfamily's advocate.
I just started screaming.
I mean, I was on Instagram,quite literally, like sharing
stories about it.
In the moment it came naturallyto me to just start screaming
about them and what washappening to them.
And yeah, they were taken away.
(04:59):
And eventually, you know, a fewdays later, we got confirmation
that they were alive in Gaza.
And so my mission as anadvocate began.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Can you help us get to know Ariel and David a little
bit better?
Those are your two relativeswho remain in captivity.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, so they're both kibbutzniks.
They grew up on the kibbutz.
Um, they're two of fourbrothers actually.
David is a twin.
He has a twin brother namedEitan.
Ariel is the youngest of thefamily and they have an older
brother.
Their parents came to Israelwhen they were young, from
Argentina, so they wereArgentinian immigrants to Israel
(05:37):
.
But David and his siblings allgrew up there and they really
loved living on the kibbutz.
They really loved that worldand the kibbutz.
They really like, they reallyloved that world and the
community and like the earth.
You know, they're like thattype of simple, simple men.
David is like quite literallythe best husband and father.
(05:59):
When he joined my family, I wasso excited.
I was so excited.
When he makes my cousin sohappy, he really balances out
her neuroses and when he hadtwins of his own, that was like
my cousin was terrified and hewas so excited to share that
connection and that relationshipwith them and really is the
(06:25):
type of father who gets down onthe ground and plays with his
kids.
And Ariel is the partner ofAbel Yehud, who a lot of people
know, who returned a few monthsago.
He's, he and her, were bigtravelers.
They wanted to travel the world.
They had just returned backfrom a trip and he's a loving
(06:46):
uncle to the twins and, like Isaid, these are just good boys.
They're just good young men whodeserve to live and deserve to
be home.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Thank you for sharing that context about them.
I think it helps us humanizeand personalize the experience.
What has it been like to be?
I don't know how many of yourrelatives are with you in New
York City advocating alongsideyou, but I definitely see you
all over the community raisingawareness and, as you said,
really shouting to bring themhome.
(07:20):
What has that experience beenlike for you the past 21 months?
What has that experience beenlike for you?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
the past 21 months it's been life-changing, truly.
I never expected to find myselfin this position, but in some
ways it feels like a calling,like if this horror was going to
happen to my family, at least Iwas here to do something about
it.
I have my two brothers here andmy parents, and everyone
(07:48):
advocates differently.
For me, speaking up and usingmy voice comes naturally to me.
For my brothers they did it intheir own ways, but for me it's
become kind of a full-time jobin many ways.
I mean especially in thebeginning.
In the beginning I really waseverywhere.
I was on every single newschannel, from here to CNN,
(08:08):
romania, um.
But during that time Iuncovered, you know, a lot of
things, a lot of holes.
I wasn't in the Jewish advocacyworld before this.
I was just living my life, um,and I am a problem solver.
So when I started seeing all ofthese holes and all of these
(08:30):
kind of fractures, both in mypolitical reality here in New
York, in the States, within theJewish community, between
Americans and Israelis, and Ijust felt like there is so much
more work to be done, and so Icontinue to try and do that now.
But it hasn't been easy.
It hasn't been easy because, onthe one hand, everything is so
(08:54):
polarized and divided,everything is seen through a
political lens.
No matter what you say, someonehas a political opinion to
project back onto you.
So, for me, I have tried toplace the humans of everyone, my
family or Palestinians I try toplace the humans at the
forefront of everything that Ido.
I try to place, you know, humanbehavior and emotions and
(09:17):
feeling at the forefront of whatwe're doing.
Of course, politics is a hugepart of it all, but I think that
I personally feel like I haveto lead with humanity in order
to even be able to haveeffective political discussions.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, thinking about the politicization of this issue
.
You've advocated.
You started advocating for yourfamily under the Biden
administration.
You've continued under theTrump administration.
What does it look like toengage in Washington in the last
administration and in this?
I don't know if you've noticedany differences.
Obviously, there have beenhostage deals secured under both
administrations, so I'm sureyou have you know what to be
(09:50):
grateful for to both of them.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, you know.
Look, I spent more time inWashington during the Biden
administration.
Personally, Unlike a lot of theother family members, I'm an
American with very strong, loudAmerican politics.
So I would say, for mepersonally, things have shifted,
because I do things a littlebit harder.
(10:14):
It's not that I don't want toengage in that, I don't want to
be there, but I think it's alittle bit harder for me when I
am generally in opposition tothe current US administration.
That said, I would talk toanyone about my family and I
would never turn away from it,and I have continued to advocate
wherever I can.
In general, though, I would sayboth administrations are
(10:34):
incredibly equally sympatheticto the cause.
A lot of the weight falls onother advocates here who are not
American.
A lot of the weight falls onother advocates here who are not
American who are advocatinghere in the US, and I've heard a
lot about, you know, the careand the treatment that the
hostage families are reallyreceiving, and the attention
(10:56):
that this administration isgiving them is really similar to
what we saw from Um, from theprevious administration.
Steve Whitcoff has been areally like a source of strength
for the family members, hasgone to Israel quite a lot Um
and look, both secure deals forus.
I will say I do feel that thedeal that already happened was
(11:18):
still Biden's deal.
This was a deal that existed ayear ago, that I was advocating
for a year ago, that I was inWashington last July advocating
about, and should have happeneda lot sooner, and so you know I
really can't give Trump thecredit for it, but I do think it
was bipartisan is what I'll say.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, you mentioned that you're willing to speak
with anyone and everyone, and soI have to ask you about meeting
with Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.
It's not super common for anIsraeli American, jew to be
engaging with her, so can youtell me more about that and what
brought you to meet with?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
her and I understand the reasons why I don't agree
with every reason, but Iunderstand them and I found
myself there last summer in July.
It was when Netanyahu came tospeak to Congress and I was
(12:15):
there on an advocacy trip andsort of in protest of that, with
a group of other hostage familymembers.
But part of our group was alsoa Palestinian, a Gazan American,
named Ahmed F Vod Al-Khatib,who a lot of people are really
familiar with.
He's now at the AtlanticCouncil and has an incredible
vision for the pro-Palestinemovement called Realign for
Palestine, and he's become areally good friend of mine and a
(12:37):
close ally and we decided to gomeet with her together.
We decided to really embodywhat it looks like to bring a
shared vision of Israel andPalestine to a very contentious,
polarizing political figure inWashington.
We wanted to present a unitedfront where we were able to have
(13:01):
her hear our stories side byside, not on one side here and
one side there and we wanted toshow, we wanted to share the
stories together.
The story of my family isobviously incredibly painful.
There are a lot of children inmy family who were, who were
kidnapped, and their experiencein captivity was horrific and I
was able to walk her through allof those details, and Ahmed has
(13:23):
lost 33 family members and hashorrific stories about some of
those family members, of course.
And I wanted to do that becauseI wanted to challenge the way
that people think we should beadvocating and I wanted to, you
know, create a new, and also Iwanted to create a line of
communication between me and heroffice and her team, because
(13:45):
the way I view it is, if we wantpeople to change, if we want
people to evolve, we have tohave a voice in the room, so I
can't turn my back to someone Idon't agree with.
I had to make a relationshipand therefore, when I feel like
I can, if she steps out of line,I always have the opportunity
to email her and say here's whywhat I think you're doing isn't
(14:05):
okay.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I think this is a great example of your activism
or advocacy that's a little bitunconventional for the American
Jewish community, and somethingthat you and I have spoken a lot
about over the past two yearsis the distance between how the
hostage families and theirallies in Israel are viewing
this war and how the crisis isperceived in the American Jewish
community, both in institutionsand at an individual level.
So can you explain the sourceof this disconnect between how
(14:33):
you and the Hostage and MissingFamilies Forum and their
advocates on the ground areviewing this crisis and how you
see it playing out here in theStates and the Jewish community?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
So I think the source of it isultimately Israel is not where
they are politically engaged, itis not actually their country.
It doesn't mean that thereisn't a connection, of course.
I am extremely aware of theAmerican Jewish connection to
Israel and I don't want to everdeny that it's a strong bond
that we have to maintain, butit's still not their country,
(15:07):
that it's a strong bond that wehave to maintain, but it's still
not their country and it's nottheir politics.
And there's a culturaldifference as well.
There's a major one, onegrowing up.
One of the reasons why I alwaysloved Israel is that it was
different from here in America.
So we're just different.
And the disconnect for me hasseemed to be that in Israel the
hostage cause is really aboutthe government, about pressuring
(15:29):
their government to make a deal.
It's not necessarily aboutHamas per se, of course.
Like the overall hostage familyforum is really nonpartisan, I
would say, or tries to bebipartisan non-partisan, I would
(15:50):
say, or tries to be bipartisan.
But here it's become a littlebit of a tool in the rhetoric
wars and our fight againstanti-Semitism in many ways, and
here it's become more of asolidarity campaign.
So the way I see it is that inIsrael it's far more of like an
advocacy and activism and aprotest movement, and here in
America it's far more of like anadvocacy and activism and a
protest movement, and here inAmerica it's a bit more about
solidarity and less aboutpressuring the Israeli
(16:12):
government.
And I really do think and Ihave for a long time really felt
like that needs to change.
We can't be letting kind of theright wing voices take over.
We have to get past our fearsof what other people will do if
we speak out against the Israeligovernment, and American Jews,
in their love for Israel, needto step up and call out the
(16:34):
Israeli government, who doeshave the power to bring David
and everyone home.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Would you say that in the American Jewish community
it's used as this, like unifyingmessage, to bring people
together across the divide,whereas in Israel there are more
clear cut policies andideologies that different people
support and they kind ofrecognize that, and the hostage
families forum tends to take aparticular approach.
Others take a differentapproach, but there's clarity
around what people are actuallyadvocating for.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's a good question.
I think in Israel it's veryclear what the politics are.
It's a deal.
It is a prisoner exchange or anexchange of hostages for
prisoners.
Support it, it's actually oneof the things.
(17:27):
I think is so amazing about thehostage cause in Israel is that,
even though it is perceived andit is believed to be a
left-wing cause in Israelbecause it doesn't demand
military action or any furthermilitary action, it still has
support from a very widecoalition of people politically
who are even very right-wing InAmerica.
I feel like it's just, it'sreally the Jewish community and
(17:51):
like a certain portion of theJewish community, not even
everyone.
I mean.
Look, I think even anti-ZionistJews think the hostages should
come home and see their humanity, but I they're not out there
like fighting for us,necessarily, but they're also
sympathetic towards us, eventhough some people don't think
that, but I believe that most ofthem are.
(18:12):
So, yeah, I think it's a morepowerful movement in Israel.
I think it's a more powerfulexample of what you can, how
people can rise up together overpolitics in the name of not
just their country but theirpeople.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, despite some of the lack of clarity between
those groups, I do know thatmany diaspora Jews really want
to be helpful in the pro-Israelcommunity.
They just don't necessarilyknow what to do, but I genuinely
believe people when they saybring them home.
I think they mean it and theybelieve it and they want it,
even though you and I could, wemight argue that it's a little
(18:49):
bit generic and lacks, like thetrue meaning because of how
generic it is, but I reallybelieve that they want to do
effective advocacy.
What would it look like on aninstitutional level?
Because the American Jewishcommunity has extremely strong
and viable institutions herethat do a lot of advocacy work
in general.
So what does it look like forinstitutions?
And then for individuals,because a lot of American Jews
(19:12):
are on social media talkingabout this every single day.
So what does it look like to dothat in a way that's actually
helpful to you and helpful toyour cause and has potential to
genuinely help bring yourcousins home?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, I'd like to see the institutions continue to
elevate voices of hostage familymembers over influencers or
advocates who are not sointimately affected by it.
I'd like to see them alsoelevate Israeli voices,
specifically, who are reallychampioning the hostage cause,
perhaps even politicians who arepart of the opposition.
(19:45):
Those are some things I couldsee them doing.
I'd really like to see themhold the Israeli government
accountable and, look, some ofthe institutions will say, well,
we don't really take sides inpolitics.
We're technically nonpartisan,but the truth is at the
institutional level, whetherit's about just the hostages or
(20:05):
about the relationship withIsrael, we need them to start
breaking this habit of hidingthe transgressions committed by
the Israeli government againsttheir own people and to ensure
that we're not always conflatingthe Israeli people with their
government, that any threat toIsrael and its people is a
(20:28):
threat, and I would love to seethem look, they're probably not
going to use language like thatthat I'm using, but I would like
to see them move more in thatdirection and I would like to
see them educate people aboutthe hardships that Israelis face
within their own politicalsystem and that we, as hostage
families, are facing.
For example, you know there isa lot of media in Israel On the
(20:54):
news.
There is a lot of commentarypolitical and social commentary
that's not getting translated tothe American Jewish audience.
I'm not saying that we have totranslate everything for
non-Jewish audiences, but whyaren't we making, an
institutional level, more of aneffort to like actively
translate from Hebrew intoEnglish and share what's
(21:15):
happening and what the hostagefamilies are going through?
A lot of them don't realize howawful we've been treated.
We've been treated horribly bythe government, the things that
they have said to us, and I feelthat if American Jews, if more
of them, saw it and knew that,that they would be horrified and
they would start to understand.
Now, in regards to otheradvocates and influencers, I
(21:36):
feel very strongly about this,which you and I have talked
about and you know this.
I feel deeply frustrated whenAmerican influencers or
advocates use hostage familymembers without echoing their
demands.
So really, simply, right in thelanguage, it does matter.
Bring them home is a bit vague.
(21:57):
Let our people go is reallyspecific to Hamas and that's not
who the hostage families arefocused on.
We're focused on the Israeligovernment and placing pressure
on them and we want everyonereally love to see American
Jewish advocates or activistslet's say pro-Israel activists
(22:31):
and influencers actually echowhat we're saying and not use us
as some sort of politicalvolleyball or political cause.
That is really more aboutWestern politics than anything
else.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, to tie it to the American politics piece, I
think part of the reason we seethat here is because people
don't want to give a pass toHamas and the Jewish community,
when we know that there arepeople among us who do normalize
Hamas and accept Hamas, and sowe want to push back and we want
the focus to be on them, andthat's what's different in
Israel.
You don't have to have thatconcern.
And also, at this point, maybethat doesn't matter as much as
(23:11):
actually achieving a hostagedeal, right Like.
The priority needs to be lesswhat do the anti-Semites think
and say?
And more how do we actually geta hostage deal?
Which I think is your point,which is that, yes, we need to
raise awareness about the awfulatrocities committed on October
7th and after by Hamas, andtangible policies matter and we
need to be working to achievethose, and what is in our power
(23:32):
is to impact the Israeligovernment.
What is in your power ashostage families and as Israelis
, is to impact the Israeligovernment.
There's not a lot of potentialto impact Hamas, unfortunately,
especially for Israelis and Jews.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yes, I agree with that and I'll say so.
I will tell people about whatHamas has done to my family
until the end of time.
I will, and we can and weshould.
And you're right, there arepeople who are sympathetic to
Hamas and I love putting them intheir place, but that's not an
effective use of time when Davidis rotting in a tunnel right
(24:07):
now.
In the very beginning, mymessage was the hostages must be
the only priority, the numberone priority, and that's what I
was saying on the news everysingle day after they were taken
and what I still say.
And the Israeli government has,even with words, made it clear
that it's not the number onepriority, and I really want
people to stand behind thatmessage that the hostages are
(24:28):
the only priority.
And then we'll get to the restlater.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, what does accountability look like for the
Israeli government when itcomes to this issue?
For you, Well, accountability.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, first and foremost, I want them to make a
deal.
I want them to make a deal thatincludes a release of all of the
hostages, that includes awithdrawal from Gaza and a
commitment to a day after planthat commits to a practical plan
for the region, for Israelisand for Palestinians, that
(25:03):
involves working with ourpartners, that ideally helps to
expand the Abraham Accords.
This can be a real moment thatwe can actually make change in
the direction of peace, becausepeace is an agreement.
Any ceasefire is going to betemporary that's just the truth
unless it's an agreement, andwhat I want to see is agreements
(25:25):
.
But for this government,accountability is stepping down.
It is calling elections and itis an inquiry into this, into
the security failures of ofOctober 7th, so I don't trust
that that will ever happen withthis government.
But real accountability we'veseen in the past in in history.
(25:50):
Other prime ministers havestepped down immediately.
That's what I would like to see, and I would like to see a
dissolution of this coalitionthat gives the Israelis an
opportunity to put people inpower who they feel like they
can trust.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
To bring in some of the other sort of calculations.
When it comes to hostage deals,this is a talking point that
you know I don't agree with, butI want to name it, which is
that whenever there's akidnapping in Israel and we had
saw it with Gilad Shalit andseveral other times there are
those who warn againstadvocating for their return.
There are government officialswho continue to insist that
advocating publicly for theirreturn is a mistake because it
(26:25):
causes the price of the deal togo up and makes it harder to
secure their release.
I want to know how you respondto those claims.
Is that something that you hearoften from people?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I do hear it sometimes.
I think it is propaganda thatis spread by a government who
has political reasons of theirown that makes them want to
silence us and keep us quiet,because they have an initiative,
they have a rhetoric and anarrative that they want to
present.
Initiative they have a rhetoricand a narrative that they want
to present, and it is our voices, our power.
(26:58):
If I have learned anything inthe last 21 months, it's that
it's that my voice is power, andanyone who wants to diminish
that power should be questioned.
I know that speaking up for ushas been a good thing.
It has made sure that thehostages are always, are always,
being talked about, especiallyin Israel.
It's it gets harder.
(27:18):
New cycles move on.
The suffering in Gaza ismassive and, rightfully, is on
the news all the time, here inAmerica at least, and it's
critical that we keep speakingup.
And I think the price thatthey're talking about is
different than the price we'retalking about.
The V is paying a price everysingle day.
(27:38):
Ariel is paying a price everysingle day for the government to
tell us you know what theirlives are worth.
So I think that people need towake up to that.
Um, it doesn't mean that we aregiving Hamas more.
Um, it also helps for Hamas toknow who our family members are
and to know that we are givingHamas more.
It also helps for Hamas to knowwho our family members are and
(28:00):
to know who we are Like.
I can't tell you this for sure,but I can say I have a hunch
that because of our advocacy,emma, one of the twins in my
family, she, was separated fromthe rest of the family early on,
like before we ever like.
When they were taken to Gaza,emma was taken by herself, like
(28:20):
at gunpoint, to be alone, andshe was alone for the first 10
days of captivity and like somehouse, and was eventually
reunited with her parents, withSharon and David and Yuli.
I don't know for sure, I haveno way of knowing, but we were
talking about them so much thateveryone knew these were twins
and I like to believe that maybeus speaking about this was a
(28:44):
way for Hamas to understand whothis family was, to reunite them
and bring them back together.
Not that Hamas would do it outof the goodness of their heart,
but it's a lot easier that way.
And also we know that thehostages sometimes get to see
the news and get to.
It's the one thing that keepsthem going.
When they come home they tellus seeing us protest, seeing us
(29:07):
on the news, it's the only thingthat keeps their hope alive.
So just for that alone it'sworth speaking up.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Absolutely.
I like that.
You're demonstrating thetangible impact of speaking up,
even if we don't see the policyoutcomes that we would like to
see.
I think is important.
October 7th shaped the Jewishpeople globally in a really
profound way, probably a once ina generation type of way, and
in many ways we are living in avery different reality.
You hear people describe like apre-October 7th world and a
(29:36):
post-October 7th world.
How do you believe the war isimpacting the Jewish psyche and
the Israeli psyche?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So there was a recent study that came out by some
psychologists out of Harvard whostudied this and, at least for
the Jewish community, theycalled it traumatic invalidation
.
So less about the war and moreabout the response to October
7th.
I think that has affected allof us, jewish and Israeli,
(30:08):
equally.
I think for Israelis inparticular, it has reinforced
their existing beliefs that theworld hates them, that no matter
what they do, that the worldwill still hate them anyway and
not care about their lives.
This is how they kind of havealways felt, and I think this
(30:28):
has reinforced that, and so Ithink the trauma that we're
collectively experiencing um isgoing to impact us for
generations again, um, and Ithink we need to approach it
with consciousness and figureout how we're going to cope with
this and what we're going to doto to not let it control us.
(30:50):
Um, um.
I think that the israeli, theisraeli psyche in particular, is
on defense more than it everhas been and, like I've always
known israelis to be defensive,but I think that it's another
level.
These days, it is um become acoping mechanism, the defense.
They're unable to see outsideof what's in front of them, and
(31:15):
I understand, understand it LikeI really really do understand
it and for me it's reallyheartbreaking to see because I'm
not sure when that will changeor if it will ever.
But I think we're all reallyshattered and broken and unable
to heal as a community as thewar continues on.
I think that we're not able toheal and I'll say the
(31:36):
continuation of the war forIsraelis is in many ways like a
re-traumatization of what theirown government has done, the
abandonment by their governmentthat I don't think they were
ever prepared for, because a lotof people talk about this this
contract between the Israeligovernment and its people that
(31:58):
was broken on October 7th andwas broken by not bringing back
the hostages.
And I don't know, if not thisgovernment, maybe another
government will be able to sortof renew that contract or renew
that promise with the Israelipeople.
But right now Israelis feelincredibly broken, alone and
helpless.
I think yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
My final question will bring this more to our
domestic politics.
You live in Brooklyn and you'rea progressive and you're a
peace activist.
I didn't mention this earlier,but you run the Narrow Bridge
Project, which is a dialogueproject, so you do engage really
across the political spectrum,but with the far left, too,
circles that I think of as beingpretty hostile to Israel.
(32:42):
So what have your relationshipswith allies, friends,
colleagues been like over thelast 21 months?
Have you found support insurprising places?
Has it been an ongoing struggle?
What is it like?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
places.
Has it been an ongoing struggle?
What is it like?
Yeah, I think I wrote my op-edin the New York Times.
You know about this, about the,the feeling of being left behind
by the liberal progressivespaces that I live in.
I live in a part of Brooklynwhere there's never been a
hostage poster ever, once, everonce in my neighborhood where I
live and other neighborhoods Ispent a lot of time in there
(33:17):
were, but they were alwaysripped down and it was really
painful to see that amongstcommunity, because I think, like
, as Jews, like we, I don't knowI think we really understand
what community means, and so Iwas really shocked to see what I
thought was my community doingthat I would say, like real
(33:39):
friends have stuck by my side,but still not everyone speaks up
.
There's a difference.
Not everyone is willing to takethe risk, the risk of speaking
up for an Israeli.
Some people I just say goodbyeto Goodbye, like I'm not
interested in some relationshipsand I'm totally fine with that.
Like I, it's sometimes ablessing to find out who is so
politically like um, uh, extreme.
(34:03):
Or politically like I'm not ina political cult, I don't want
to be part of one.
So in some ways there's been asilver lining of discovering
that I don't have to be part ofa cult anymore, um, but I have
found new relationships becauseI've had to try, and these are
some of my most fulfillingrelationships.
Now I've made a lot morefriends across the spectrum,
(34:25):
even more to the right of me andto the left of me, and I have,
I feel, a wider tent of peoplein my life.
Now I have amassed quite a alarge number of Palestinians, of
Palestinian peace activists Ididn't know before and they have
been an amazing silver liningon this for me.
(34:45):
I never.
It took me a while to find them, but once I did, then I just
found more and more and that hasbeen that has been really
comforting.
But I've also I've made newfriends.
That has been really comforting.
But I've also I've made newfriends.
Like you know, I have, like, ajournalist in like Amsterdam who
I've become friends with, who'svery, very much the left, but
she loves me and we FaceTimesometimes.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I just I try to lead everything as relationships
first, as humans first, and sothere are people who I really
strongly disagree with on a lotof things, and so there are
(35:28):
people who I really stronglydisagree with on a lot of things
, but I have developed newrelationships that I think will
help me continue to advocate forthings that matter to me in the
future and that listen to thiswhat is a suggestion for a way
to be talking about, or I don'tknow if there's like a slogan or
language that we can use totalk about the hostages.
That is more helpful than whatwe are currently doing.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, so I think we touched on it before.
But, like, bring them home isgreat, but it still continues to
be ambiguous in regards to thedemand.
The demand is a deal.
The demand is a diplomatic dealwhich includes the end of the
war.
So in Israel we're all sayingend the war and make a deal to
bring all of the hostages home.
(36:07):
Today is Emma and Yuli's fifthbirthday.
It is their second birthdaywithout their father.
The last time they saw him waswhen they left him in Hamas
captivity.
And my cousin spoke lastSaturday at the rally that
happens every Saturday night andshe said we made a deal with
(36:29):
Lebanon, with Hezbollah, we madea deal with Iran.
Now it's time to make a deal toend the war and make a deal for
Emma and Yuli.
So that's what people need toecho.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thank you so much, alana.
It was really wonderful tospeak with you.
I'm glad you were able to joinus.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks again to Alana Zajic forthe generous time and for
sharing her family's story, aswell as her experience and
insights on the fight to bringall the hostages home and to end
the war, a call that we atIsrael Policy Forum have echoed.
Also, special thanks to ourproducer, jacob Gilman, and to
(37:03):
all of those who support IsraelPolicy Forum's work On this
episode.
We won't encourage you todonate to Israel Policy Forum,
but rather to consider adonation to the Hostage and
Missing Families Forum, whosewebsite we will add in the show
notes.
Once again, I'm Shani Reichman,and thank you for listening.
Shalom and welcome to Israel Policy Pod.
I'm Shini Reichman, theDirector of Strategic
Initiatives and IPF Atid atIsrael Policy Forum, and I'm
based in New York City.
This is a very rare week inwhich we are recording two
podcasts, since we had theopportunity to amplify a very
important voice for you to hearfrom.
I'm going to be joined by AlanaZajic, an Israeli-American
advocate, speaker and writer.
She's written op-eds in the NewYork Times and the Forward,
(00:28):
made countless media appearances, given speeches at the UN and
built quite a social mediacommunity.
While she's at it Now, onOctober 7th, six of her family
members were taken hostage byHamas.
We will talk about her family,who remains in captivity, the
ongoing hostage crisis and theimpediments, both political and
practical, that are preventingits resolution, as well as the
distance and dissonance betweenIsraeli and American Jews in
(00:50):
their advocacy and theiractivism.
Welcome, alana.
Thank you, shani, happy tofinally get you on the podcast
to talk about this.
On October 7th, your cousinSharon Aloni Cuneo and her
husband David Cuneo and theirthree-year-old twins Emma and
Yuli, as well as your cousinDanielle Aloni and her
(01:11):
five-year-old daughter Amelia,were stolen from kibbutz near Oz
in an act of barbaric violenceby Hamas.
Sharon Danielle and their threechildren were released in the
November 2023 hostage deal.
However, your cousin's husband,david Cuneo and his brother
Ariel were left behind and theyremain in captivity.
Today.
Tell me your family's story.
What happened on October 7thand how did you find out about
(01:32):
it?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
So I was here in New York and I woke up that morning
to, you know, a red alert.
It's not here, but we all knowbecause my family is all very
connected.
We stay connected to everyonein Israel and we knew that they
were missing.
In our cousin's group chat,sharon, who lived on Mir Oz, was
(01:57):
always the first person to tellus that she was okay, and this
Saturday we didn't hear from her.
So we sat around here, mybrothers and I, like in New York
, my family and I here, watchingthe news, waiting for news,
like everyone else except wewere waiting for the news about
people that we love, and duringthat time they were in their
(02:25):
safe room in the Mamad andfighting for their lives.
Because, you know, theterrorists were ravaging the
kibbutz around them, shootingpeople, massacring people,
setting houses and cars on fire,and they set their house on
fire.
So all six of them were in theroom, trying to keep the door
(02:46):
closed, by the way, because theydidn't have a lock on the door,
so they had to actually holdthe door shut to make sure no
one would get in.
And the house went up in flamesaround them and, as time
progressed, smoke filled theroom and they were choking and
they they came to therealization that this was the
(03:07):
end for them, that it was eithergo out the window and be shot
or kidnapped, or stay in theroom and choke to death as their
children were around them.
You know, they weren't able tobreathe.
The girls were screaming Ican't breathe, they can't
breathe.
My cousin Sharon almost passedout and they eventually, you
know, decided that they'd ratherbe shot than choked to death.
(03:31):
At least my cousin Danielledecided that and said to her
daughter you know, I'm sorry,honey, but we're going to die.
That's really what theybelieved when they left that
room and they went through thewindow and were miraculously not
shot but were put onto tractorsand taken to Gaza and bringing
back to me in New York, sittingaround waiting to find out what
(03:53):
was happening to them, one ofthe twins, yuli, surrounded by
terrorists screaming and justtaking them across the border.
Goodbye.
Just seeing my family sweptaway from me, it was deeply
(04:14):
traumatizing, I'll say, to seethat, and at that point we
didn't know if they were aliveor dead or otherwise.
We knew that there was no bloodin the room, because once people
were able to get onto thekibbutz, we knew that in their
house there wasn't any blood andthat was a sign of maybe that
(04:38):
they were still alive.
And I, at that point, became myfamily's advocate.
I just started screaming.
I mean, I was on Instagram,quite literally, like sharing
stories about it.
In the moment it came naturallyto me to just start screaming
about them and what washappening to them.
And yeah, they were taken away.
(04:59):
And eventually, you know, a fewdays later, we got confirmation
that they were alive in Gaza.
And so my mission as anadvocate began.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Can you help us get to know Ariel and David a little
bit better?
Those are your two relativeswho remain in captivity.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, so they're both kibbutzniks.
They grew up on the kibbutz.
Um, they're two of fourbrothers actually.
David is a twin.
He has a twin brother namedEitan.
Ariel is the youngest of thefamily and they have an older
brother.
Their parents came to Israelwhen they were young, from
Argentina, so they wereArgentinian immigrants to Israel
(05:37):
.
But David and his siblings allgrew up there and they really
loved living on the kibbutz.
They really loved that worldand the kibbutz.
They really like, they reallyloved that world and the
community and like the earth.
You know, they're like thattype of simple, simple men.
David is like quite literallythe best husband and father.
(05:59):
When he joined my family, I wasso excited.
I was so excited.
When he makes my cousin sohappy, he really balances out
her neuroses and when he hadtwins of his own, that was like
my cousin was terrified and hewas so excited to share that
connection and that relationshipwith them and really is the
(06:25):
type of father who gets down onthe ground and plays with his
kids.
And Ariel is the partner ofAbel Yehud, who a lot of people
know, who returned a few monthsago.
He's, he and her, were bigtravelers.
They wanted to travel the world.
They had just returned backfrom a trip and he's a loving
(06:46):
uncle to the twins and, like Isaid, these are just good boys.
They're just good young men whodeserve to live and deserve to
be home.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Thank you for sharing that context about them.
I think it helps us humanizeand personalize the experience.
What has it been like to be?
I don't know how many of yourrelatives are with you in New
York City advocating alongsideyou, but I definitely see you
all over the community raisingawareness and, as you said,
really shouting to bring themhome.
(07:20):
What has that experience beenlike for you the past 21 months?
What has that experience beenlike for you?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
the past 21 months it's been life-changing, truly.
I never expected to find myselfin this position, but in some
ways it feels like a calling,like if this horror was going to
happen to my family, at least Iwas here to do something about
it.
I have my two brothers here andmy parents, and everyone
(07:48):
advocates differently.
For me, speaking up and usingmy voice comes naturally to me.
For my brothers they did it intheir own ways, but for me it's
become kind of a full-time jobin many ways.
I mean especially in thebeginning.
In the beginning I really waseverywhere.
I was on every single newschannel, from here to CNN,
(08:08):
romania, um.
But during that time Iuncovered, you know, a lot of
things, a lot of holes.
I wasn't in the Jewish advocacyworld before this.
I was just living my life, um,and I am a problem solver.
So when I started seeing all ofthese holes and all of these
(08:30):
kind of fractures, both in mypolitical reality here in New
York, in the States, within theJewish community, between
Americans and Israelis, and Ijust felt like there is so much
more work to be done, and so Icontinue to try and do that now.
But it hasn't been easy.
It hasn't been easy because, onthe one hand, everything is so
(08:54):
polarized and divided,everything is seen through a
political lens.
No matter what you say, someonehas a political opinion to
project back onto you.
So, for me, I have tried toplace the humans of everyone, my
family or Palestinians I try toplace the humans at the
forefront of everything that Ido.
I try to place, you know, humanbehavior and emotions and
(09:17):
feeling at the forefront of whatwe're doing.
Of course, politics is a hugepart of it all, but I think that
I personally feel like I haveto lead with humanity in order
to even be able to haveeffective political discussions.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Yeah, thinking about the politicization of this issue
.
You've advocated.
You started advocating for yourfamily under the Biden
administration.
You've continued under theTrump administration.
What does it look like toengage in Washington in the last
administration and in this?
I don't know if you've noticedany differences.
Obviously, there have beenhostage deals secured under both
administrations, so I'm sureyou have you know what to be
(09:50):
grateful for to both of them.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, you know.
Look, I spent more time inWashington during the Biden
administration.
Personally, Unlike a lot of theother family members, I'm an
American with very strong, loudAmerican politics.
So I would say, for mepersonally, things have shifted,
because I do things a littlebit harder.
(10:14):
It's not that I don't want toengage in that, I don't want to
be there, but I think it's alittle bit harder for me when I
am generally in opposition tothe current US administration.
That said, I would talk toanyone about my family and I
would never turn away from it,and I have continued to advocate
wherever I can.
In general, though, I would sayboth administrations are
(10:34):
incredibly equally sympatheticto the cause.
A lot of the weight falls onother advocates here who are not
American.
A lot of the weight falls onother advocates here who are not
American who are advocatinghere in the US, and I've heard a
lot about, you know, the careand the treatment that the
hostage families are reallyreceiving, and the attention
(10:56):
that this administration isgiving them is really similar to
what we saw from Um, from theprevious administration.
Steve Whitcoff has been areally like a source of strength
for the family members, hasgone to Israel quite a lot Um
and look, both secure deals forus.
I will say I do feel that thedeal that already happened was
(11:18):
still Biden's deal.
This was a deal that existed ayear ago, that I was advocating
for a year ago, that I was inWashington last July advocating
about, and should have happeneda lot sooner, and so you know I
really can't give Trump thecredit for it, but I do think it
was bipartisan is what I'll say.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, you mentioned that you're willing to speak
with anyone and everyone, and soI have to ask you about meeting
with Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.
It's not super common for anIsraeli American, jew to be
engaging with her, so can youtell me more about that and what
brought you to meet with?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
her and I understand the reasons why I don't agree
with every reason, but Iunderstand them and I found
myself there last summer in July.
It was when Netanyahu came tospeak to Congress and I was
(12:15):
there on an advocacy trip andsort of in protest of that, with
a group of other hostage familymembers.
But part of our group was alsoa Palestinian, a Gazan American,
named Ahmed F Vod Al-Khatib,who a lot of people are really
familiar with.
He's now at the AtlanticCouncil and has an incredible
vision for the pro-Palestinemovement called Realign for
Palestine, and he's become areally good friend of mine and a
(12:37):
close ally and we decided to gomeet with her together.
We decided to really embodywhat it looks like to bring a
shared vision of Israel andPalestine to a very contentious,
polarizing political figure inWashington.
We wanted to present a unitedfront where we were able to have
(13:01):
her hear our stories side byside, not on one side here and
one side there and we wanted toshow, we wanted to share the
stories together.
The story of my family isobviously incredibly painful.
There are a lot of children inmy family who were, who were
kidnapped, and their experiencein captivity was horrific and I
was able to walk her through allof those details, and Ahmed has
(13:23):
lost 33 family members and hashorrific stories about some of
those family members, of course.
And I wanted to do that becauseI wanted to challenge the way
that people think we should beadvocating and I wanted to, you
know, create a new, and also Iwanted to create a line of
communication between me and heroffice and her team, because
(13:45):
the way I view it is, if we wantpeople to change, if we want
people to evolve, we have tohave a voice in the room, so I
can't turn my back to someone Idon't agree with.
I had to make a relationshipand therefore, when I feel like
I can, if she steps out of line,I always have the opportunity
to email her and say here's whywhat I think you're doing isn't
(14:05):
okay.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I think this is a great example of your activism
or advocacy that's a little bitunconventional for the American
Jewish community, and somethingthat you and I have spoken a lot
about over the past two yearsis the distance between how the
hostage families and theirallies in Israel are viewing
this war and how the crisis isperceived in the American Jewish
community, both in institutionsand at an individual level.
So can you explain the sourceof this disconnect between how
(14:33):
you and the Hostage and MissingFamilies Forum and their
advocates on the ground areviewing this crisis and how you
see it playing out here in theStates and the Jewish community?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Yeah.
So I think the source of it isultimately Israel is not where
they are politically engaged, itis not actually their country.
It doesn't mean that thereisn't a connection, of course.
I am extremely aware of theAmerican Jewish connection to
Israel and I don't want to everdeny that it's a strong bond
that we have to maintain, butit's still not their country,
(15:07):
that it's a strong bond that wehave to maintain, but it's still
not their country and it's nottheir politics.
And there's a culturaldifference as well.
There's a major one, onegrowing up.
One of the reasons why I alwaysloved Israel is that it was
different from here in America.
So we're just different.
And the disconnect for me hasseemed to be that in Israel the
hostage cause is really aboutthe government, about pressuring
(15:29):
their government to make a deal.
It's not necessarily aboutHamas per se, of course.
Like the overall hostage familyforum is really nonpartisan, I
would say, or tries to bebipartisan non-partisan, I would
(15:50):
say, or tries to be bipartisan.
But here it's become a littlebit of a tool in the rhetoric
wars and our fight againstanti-Semitism in many ways, and
here it's become more of asolidarity campaign.
So the way I see it is that inIsrael it's far more of like an
advocacy and activism and aprotest movement, and here in
America it's far more of like anadvocacy and activism and a
protest movement, and here inAmerica it's a bit more about
solidarity and less aboutpressuring the Israeli
(16:12):
government.
And I really do think and Ihave for a long time really felt
like that needs to change.
We can't be letting kind of theright wing voices take over.
We have to get past our fearsof what other people will do if
we speak out against the Israeligovernment, and American Jews,
in their love for Israel, needto step up and call out the
(16:34):
Israeli government, who doeshave the power to bring David
and everyone home.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Would you say that in the American Jewish community
it's used as this, like unifyingmessage, to bring people
together across the divide,whereas in Israel there are more
clear cut policies andideologies that different people
support and they kind ofrecognize that, and the hostage
families forum tends to take aparticular approach.
Others take a differentapproach, but there's clarity
around what people are actuallyadvocating for.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
That's a good question.
I think in Israel it's veryclear what the politics are.
It's a deal.
It is a prisoner exchange or anexchange of hostages for
prisoners.
Support it, it's actually oneof the things.
(17:27):
I think is so amazing about thehostage cause in Israel is that,
even though it is perceived andit is believed to be a
left-wing cause in Israelbecause it doesn't demand
military action or any furthermilitary action, it still has
support from a very widecoalition of people politically
who are even very right-wing InAmerica.
I feel like it's just, it'sreally the Jewish community and
(17:51):
like a certain portion of theJewish community, not even
everyone.
I mean.
Look, I think even anti-ZionistJews think the hostages should
come home and see their humanity, but I they're not out there
like fighting for us,necessarily, but they're also
sympathetic towards us, eventhough some people don't think
that, but I believe that most ofthem are.
(18:12):
So, yeah, I think it's a morepowerful movement in Israel.
I think it's a more powerfulexample of what you can, how
people can rise up together overpolitics in the name of not
just their country but theirpeople.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Yeah, despite some of the lack of clarity between
those groups, I do know thatmany diaspora Jews really want
to be helpful in the pro-Israelcommunity.
They just don't necessarilyknow what to do, but I genuinely
believe people when they saybring them home.
I think they mean it and theybelieve it and they want it,
even though you and I could, wemight argue that it's a little
(18:49):
bit generic and lacks, like thetrue meaning because of how
generic it is, but I reallybelieve that they want to do
effective advocacy.
What would it look like on aninstitutional level?
Because the American Jewishcommunity has extremely strong
and viable institutions herethat do a lot of advocacy work
in general.
So what does it look like forinstitutions?
And then for individuals,because a lot of American Jews
(19:12):
are on social media talkingabout this every single day.
So what does it look like to dothat in a way that's actually
helpful to you and helpful toyour cause and has potential to
genuinely help bring yourcousins home?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, I'd like to see the institutions continue to
elevate voices of hostage familymembers over influencers or
advocates who are not sointimately affected by it.
I'd like to see them alsoelevate Israeli voices,
specifically, who are reallychampioning the hostage cause,
perhaps even politicians who arepart of the opposition.
(19:45):
Those are some things I couldsee them doing.
I'd really like to see themhold the Israeli government
accountable and, look, some ofthe institutions will say, well,
we don't really take sides inpolitics.
We're technically nonpartisan,but the truth is at the
institutional level, whetherit's about just the hostages or
(20:05):
about the relationship withIsrael, we need them to start
breaking this habit of hidingthe transgressions committed by
the Israeli government againsttheir own people and to ensure
that we're not always conflatingthe Israeli people with their
government, that any threat toIsrael and its people is a
(20:28):
threat, and I would love to seethem look, they're probably not
going to use language like thatthat I'm using, but I would like
to see them move more in thatdirection and I would like to
see them educate people aboutthe hardships that Israelis face
within their own politicalsystem and that we, as hostage
families, are facing.
For example, you know there isa lot of media in Israel On the
(20:54):
news.
There is a lot of commentarypolitical and social commentary
that's not getting translated tothe American Jewish audience.
I'm not saying that we have totranslate everything for
non-Jewish audiences, but whyaren't we making, an
institutional level, more of aneffort to like actively
translate from Hebrew intoEnglish and share what's
(21:15):
happening and what the hostagefamilies are going through?
A lot of them don't realize howawful we've been treated.
We've been treated horribly bythe government, the things that
they have said to us, and I feelthat if American Jews, if more
of them, saw it and knew that,that they would be horrified and
they would start to understand.
Now, in regards to otheradvocates and influencers, I
(21:36):
feel very strongly about this,which you and I have talked
about and you know this.
I feel deeply frustrated whenAmerican influencers or
advocates use hostage familymembers without echoing their
demands.
So really, simply, right in thelanguage, it does matter.
Bring them home is a bit vague.
(21:57):
Let our people go is reallyspecific to Hamas and that's not
who the hostage families arefocused on.
We're focused on the Israeligovernment and placing pressure
on them and we want everyonereally love to see American
Jewish advocates or activistslet's say pro-Israel activists
(22:31):
and influencers actually echowhat we're saying and not use us
as some sort of politicalvolleyball or political cause.
That is really more aboutWestern politics than anything
else.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, to tie it to the American politics piece, I
think part of the reason we seethat here is because people
don't want to give a pass toHamas and the Jewish community,
when we know that there arepeople among us who do normalize
Hamas and accept Hamas, and sowe want to push back and we want
the focus to be on them, andthat's what's different in
Israel.
You don't have to have thatconcern.
And also, at this point, maybethat doesn't matter as much as
(23:11):
actually achieving a hostagedeal, right Like.
The priority needs to be lesswhat do the anti-Semites think
and say?
And more how do we actually geta hostage deal?
Which I think is your point,which is that, yes, we need to
raise awareness about the awfulatrocities committed on October
7th and after by Hamas, andtangible policies matter and we
need to be working to achievethose, and what is in our power
(23:32):
is to impact the Israeligovernment.
What is in your power ashostage families and as Israelis
, is to impact the Israeligovernment.
There's not a lot of potentialto impact Hamas, unfortunately,
especially for Israelis and Jews.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Yes, I agree with that and I'll say so.
I will tell people about whatHamas has done to my family
until the end of time.
I will, and we can and weshould.
And you're right, there arepeople who are sympathetic to
Hamas and I love putting them intheir place, but that's not an
effective use of time when Davidis rotting in a tunnel right
(24:07):
now.
In the very beginning, mymessage was the hostages must be
the only priority, the numberone priority, and that's what I
was saying on the news everysingle day after they were taken
and what I still say.
And the Israeli government has,even with words, made it clear
that it's not the number onepriority, and I really want
people to stand behind thatmessage that the hostages are
(24:28):
the only priority.
And then we'll get to the restlater.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, what does accountability look like for the
Israeli government when itcomes to this issue?
For you, Well, accountability.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Well, first and foremost, I want them to make a
deal.
I want them to make a deal thatincludes a release of all of the
hostages, that includes awithdrawal from Gaza and a
commitment to a day after planthat commits to a practical plan
for the region, for Israelisand for Palestinians, that
(25:03):
involves working with ourpartners, that ideally helps to
expand the Abraham Accords.
This can be a real moment thatwe can actually make change in
the direction of peace, becausepeace is an agreement.
Any ceasefire is going to betemporary that's just the truth
unless it's an agreement, andwhat I want to see is agreements
(25:25):
.
But for this government,accountability is stepping down.
It is calling elections and itis an inquiry into this, into
the security failures of ofOctober 7th, so I don't trust
that that will ever happen withthis government.
But real accountability we'veseen in the past in in history.
(25:50):
Other prime ministers havestepped down immediately.
That's what I would like to see, and I would like to see a
dissolution of this coalitionthat gives the Israelis an
opportunity to put people inpower who they feel like they
can trust.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
To bring in some of the other sort of calculations.
When it comes to hostage deals,this is a talking point that
you know I don't agree with, butI want to name it, which is
that whenever there's akidnapping in Israel and we had
saw it with Gilad Shalit andseveral other times there are
those who warn againstadvocating for their return.
There are government officialswho continue to insist that
advocating publicly for theirreturn is a mistake because it
(26:25):
causes the price of the deal togo up and makes it harder to
secure their release.
I want to know how you respondto those claims.
Is that something that you hearoften from people?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I do hear it sometimes.
I think it is propaganda thatis spread by a government who
has political reasons of theirown that makes them want to
silence us and keep us quiet,because they have an initiative,
they have a rhetoric and anarrative that they want to
present.
Initiative they have a rhetoricand a narrative that they want
to present, and it is our voices, our power.
(26:58):
If I have learned anything inthe last 21 months, it's that
it's that my voice is power, andanyone who wants to diminish
that power should be questioned.
I know that speaking up for ushas been a good thing.
It has made sure that thehostages are always, are always,
being talked about, especiallyin Israel.
It's it gets harder.
(27:18):
New cycles move on.
The suffering in Gaza ismassive and, rightfully, is on
the news all the time, here inAmerica at least, and it's
critical that we keep speakingup.
And I think the price thatthey're talking about is
different than the price we'retalking about.
The V is paying a price everysingle day.
(27:38):
Ariel is paying a price everysingle day for the government to
tell us you know what theirlives are worth.
So I think that people need towake up to that.
Um, it doesn't mean that we aregiving Hamas more.
Um, it also helps for Hamas toknow who our family members are
and to know that we are givingHamas more.
It also helps for Hamas to knowwho our family members are and
(28:00):
to know who we are Like.
I can't tell you this for sure,but I can say I have a hunch
that because of our advocacy,emma, one of the twins in my
family, she, was separated fromthe rest of the family early on,
like before we ever like.
When they were taken to Gaza,emma was taken by herself, like
(28:20):
at gunpoint, to be alone, andshe was alone for the first 10
days of captivity and like somehouse, and was eventually
reunited with her parents, withSharon and David and Yuli.
I don't know for sure, I haveno way of knowing, but we were
talking about them so much thateveryone knew these were twins
and I like to believe that maybeus speaking about this was a
(28:44):
way for Hamas to understand whothis family was, to reunite them
and bring them back together.
Not that Hamas would do it outof the goodness of their heart,
but it's a lot easier that way.
And also we know that thehostages sometimes get to see
the news and get to.
It's the one thing that keepsthem going.
When they come home they tellus seeing us protest, seeing us
(29:07):
on the news, it's the only thingthat keeps their hope alive.
So just for that alone it'sworth speaking up.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Absolutely.
I like that.
You're demonstrating thetangible impact of speaking up,
even if we don't see the policyoutcomes that we would like to
see.
I think is important.
October 7th shaped the Jewishpeople globally in a really
profound way, probably a once ina generation type of way, and
in many ways we are living in avery different reality.
You hear people describe like apre-October 7th world and a
(29:36):
post-October 7th world.
How do you believe the war isimpacting the Jewish psyche and
the Israeli psyche?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
So there was a recent study that came out by some
psychologists out of Harvard whostudied this and, at least for
the Jewish community, theycalled it traumatic invalidation
.
So less about the war and moreabout the response to October
7th.
I think that has affected allof us, jewish and Israeli,
(30:08):
equally.
I think for Israelis inparticular, it has reinforced
their existing beliefs that theworld hates them, that no matter
what they do, that the worldwill still hate them anyway and
not care about their lives.
This is how they kind of havealways felt, and I think this
(30:28):
has reinforced that, and so Ithink the trauma that we're
collectively experiencing um isgoing to impact us for
generations again, um, and Ithink we need to approach it
with consciousness and figureout how we're going to cope with
this and what we're going to doto to not let it control us.
(30:50):
Um, um.
I think that the israeli, theisraeli psyche in particular, is
on defense more than it everhas been and, like I've always
known israelis to be defensive,but I think that it's another
level.
These days, it is um become acoping mechanism, the defense.
They're unable to see outsideof what's in front of them, and
(31:15):
I understand, understand it LikeI really really do understand
it and for me it's reallyheartbreaking to see because I'm
not sure when that will changeor if it will ever.
But I think we're all reallyshattered and broken and unable
to heal as a community as thewar continues on.
I think that we're not able toheal and I'll say the
(31:36):
continuation of the war forIsraelis is in many ways like a
re-traumatization of what theirown government has done, the
abandonment by their governmentthat I don't think they were
ever prepared for, because a lotof people talk about this this
contract between the Israeligovernment and its people that
(31:58):
was broken on October 7th andwas broken by not bringing back
the hostages.
And I don't know, if not thisgovernment, maybe another
government will be able to sortof renew that contract or renew
that promise with the Israelipeople.
But right now Israelis feelincredibly broken, alone and
helpless.
I think yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
My final question will bring this more to our
domestic politics.
You live in Brooklyn and you'rea progressive and you're a
peace activist.
I didn't mention this earlier,but you run the Narrow Bridge
Project, which is a dialogueproject, so you do engage really
across the political spectrum,but with the far left, too,
circles that I think of as beingpretty hostile to Israel.
(32:42):
So what have your relationshipswith allies, friends,
colleagues been like over thelast 21 months?
Have you found support insurprising places?
Has it been an ongoing struggle?
What is it like?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
places.
Has it been an ongoing struggle?
What is it like?
Yeah, I think I wrote my op-edin the New York Times.
You know about this, about the,the feeling of being left behind
by the liberal progressivespaces that I live in.
I live in a part of Brooklynwhere there's never been a
hostage poster ever, once, everonce in my neighborhood where I
live and other neighborhoods Ispent a lot of time in there
(33:17):
were, but they were alwaysripped down and it was really
painful to see that amongstcommunity, because I think, like
, as Jews, like we, I don't knowI think we really understand
what community means, and so Iwas really shocked to see what I
thought was my community doingthat I would say, like real
(33:39):
friends have stuck by my side,but still not everyone speaks up
.
There's a difference.
Not everyone is willing to takethe risk, the risk of speaking
up for an Israeli.
Some people I just say goodbyeto Goodbye, like I'm not
interested in some relationshipsand I'm totally fine with that.
Like I, it's sometimes ablessing to find out who is so
politically like um, uh, extreme.
(34:03):
Or politically like I'm not ina political cult, I don't want
to be part of one.
So in some ways there's been asilver lining of discovering
that I don't have to be part ofa cult anymore, um, but I have
found new relationships becauseI've had to try, and these are
some of my most fulfillingrelationships.
Now I've made a lot morefriends across the spectrum,
(34:25):
even more to the right of me andto the left of me, and I have,
I feel, a wider tent of peoplein my life.
Now I have amassed quite a alarge number of Palestinians, of
Palestinian peace activists Ididn't know before and they have
been an amazing silver liningon this for me.
(34:45):
I never.
It took me a while to find them, but once I did, then I just
found more and more and that hasbeen that has been really
comforting.
But I've also I've made newfriends.
That has been really comforting.
But I've also I've made newfriends.
Like you know, I have, like, ajournalist in like Amsterdam who
I've become friends with, who'svery, very much the left, but
she loves me and we FaceTimesometimes.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
I just I try to lead everything as relationships
first, as humans first, and sothere are people who I really
strongly disagree with on a lotof things, and so there are
(35:28):
people who I really stronglydisagree with on a lot of things
, but I have developed newrelationships that I think will
help me continue to advocate forthings that matter to me in the
future and that listen to thiswhat is a suggestion for a way
to be talking about, or I don'tknow if there's like a slogan or
language that we can use totalk about the hostages.
That is more helpful than whatwe are currently doing.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, so I think we touched on it before.
But, like, bring them home isgreat, but it still continues to
be ambiguous in regards to thedemand.
The demand is a deal.
The demand is a diplomatic dealwhich includes the end of the
war.
So in Israel we're all sayingend the war and make a deal to
bring all of the hostages home.
(36:07):
Today is Emma and Yuli's fifthbirthday.
It is their second birthdaywithout their father.
The last time they saw him waswhen they left him in Hamas
captivity.
And my cousin spoke lastSaturday at the rally that
happens every Saturday night andshe said we made a deal with
(36:29):
Lebanon, with Hezbollah, we madea deal with Iran.
Now it's time to make a deal toend the war and make a deal for
Emma and Yuli.
So that's what people need toecho.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Thank you so much, alana.
It was really wonderful tospeak with you.
I'm glad you were able to joinus.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks again to Alana Zajic forthe generous time and for
sharing her family's story, aswell as her experience and
insights on the fight to bringall the hostages home and to end
the war, a call that we atIsrael Policy Forum have echoed.
Also, special thanks to ourproducer, jacob Gilman, and to
(37:03):
all of those who support IsraelPolicy Forum's work On this
episode.
We won't encourage you todonate to Israel Policy Forum,
but rather to consider adonation to the Hostage and
Missing Families Forum, whosewebsite we will add in the show
notes.
Once again, I'm Shani Reichman,and thank you for listening.
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