May 20, 2025 • 51 mins
If you’re using alcohol to cope, perform, or just get through the day, this episode is worth your time. Gillian Tietz, biochemist and host of the Sober Powered podcast, breaks down the real science behind drinking, why moderation doesn’t work for everyone, and how alcohol messes with your leadership and clarity.
In this episode, we’re talking about sobriety, substance use, and how alcohol quietly shapes the way you lead, make decisions, and run your business.
Why You Should Listen:
- Learn what alcohol is really doing to your brain: Gillian explains the neurochemistry of drinking and why it’s more than just a bad habit.
- Understand why moderation fails for some people: Hear why “just drink less” is not helpful advice for problem drinkers.
- Identify the connection between alcohol and burnout: How alcohol masks exhaustion, amplifies anxiety, and disconnects you from your own needs.
- Start rethinking how you cope with discomfort: If you’re using alcohol (or any habit) to get through your workday or social obligations, this episode gives you a different lens to look through.
Listen in for a candid conversation about drinking, coping, and what happens when you stop avoiding yourself.
Connect with Gill Tietz:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sober.powered/
- Website: https://www.soberpowered.com/
- Sober Powered: The Neuroscience of Being Sober Podcast: https://listen.soberpowered.com/power
- Living A Sober Power Life Membership: https://www.soberpowered.com/membership
✨ Be the first to know about private 1:1 coaching spot availability - join the waitlist: https://jereshiahawk.com/waitlist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey.
(00:00):
Hey.
Now before we get into today'sepisode, this is the first time
we've ever explored this topicof sobriety and substance on the
podcast, but it felt soimportant to bring this
conversation to the tablebecause the truth is substance
abuse.
Impacts so many entrepreneurs,high performers, and the people
that they love, and it's oftensomething we don't talk about
(00:22):
out loud.
So if you or someone you careabout is struggling, you are not
alone.
There is support.
You can call the S-A-M-H-S-Ahotline to get help.
It's free, confidential, andavailable 24 7.
So please take care of yourselfas you listen.
Now let me introduce you totoday's guest.
I've had the honor of knowingJillian Tets for a few months
(00:44):
now, and she's the host of theSober Powered Podcast.
It is one of the top ratedpodcasts in the sobriety space
she is a certified sober coach.
Since getting sober in 2019,she's been on a mission to help
others understand the why behindtheir drinking and why it has
nothing to do with being aweak-willed loser.
(01:05):
With a background inbiochemistry and lived
experience and recovery, Jillbrings a powerful mix of science
and heart to her work.
She teaches how alcohol actuallychanges the brain and how real
freedom comes fromself-awareness.
Emotional regulation and doingthe work.
Jill is somebody I reallytrusted with the tenderness of
(01:26):
bringing this conversation tothe podcast.
And in this season when we aretalking about the perception
gap, how others perceive us, butmore importantly, how we
perceive ourselves and how weare showing up to lead, how we
are showing up to be visible.
How are you showing up to growand build our businesses and
what is.
Impacting that or making itdifficult to do that and owning
(01:46):
our full truth.
I just knew that this was one ofthe conversations that had to be
had about how we might becoping, what we might be using
to tolerate discomfort andunease in our lives.
And I'm just really honored tohave this conversation with you.
I am a little nervous.
Because we've never done it onthe podcast, but I really hope
you enjoy this conversation.
(02:07):
I hope that it, helps you orhelps somebody that you know and
love, and I cannot wait to hearyour feedback on it.
But let's get into today'sepisode.
Y'all.
I am so excited to have thisconversation.
I'm a little nervous to havethis conversation right now to
be also fully transparent'causeI don't think we've ever really
talked about this type ofdynamic on the podcast, but I
am, Jill is the only person Iwanted to have this conversation
(02:29):
with and that I felt safebringing this type of
conversation to the podcastwith.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It's, it's cool to be, uh, in aconversation like this with you.
Yeah, I know.
I'm nervous too.
Uh, well, I mean, I know I gavea really in depth background
through your bio, but can youlike, just give us a lay of the
(02:51):
land of like what, how do youcontribute through your work and
through your business, um, as aprofessor, but also in your
business?
Like what is the work that youdo right now?
And kind of just give us a shortbreakdown of kind of like who
you are and kind of how you'recontributing right now.
I feel like if people who knowme think of me, they probably
think about all of the sciencethat I share.
(03:14):
So I, I help people understandbasically why they can't control
their drinking.
And then I'm really big on thefact that problem drinkers can't
learn how to moderate.
Mm.
So I've spent almost five yearsjust really educate, or over
five years actually educatingmyself on like why this happens
(03:36):
to people and why some peoplecan choose to drink heavily and
then choose to not, and otherpeople don't have a choice.
They just.
Go hard or they have to besober, and I wanted to
understand why that happened tome and if it was because I was a
loser or not.
Hmm.
(03:56):
That was the motivation I.
Part of the reason I wanted tohave this conversation is, um,
and just, and get in fulltransparency, like my father
passed away last year in 2024,and alcohol being, I always
labeled him as an alcoholic.
Like, or I, I didn't know how toproperly label because I think
growing up in our household, wejust like didn't talk about it.
(04:19):
Like if just there were peoplein the family that drank Mm.
A little bit more at the holidaygatherings than others, and it's
like, oh, okay.
They're just being who they are.
But as a kid growing up, I justsaw how it impacted him and I
just see towards like, you know,his unexpected death.
Like you could tell how thattype of substance abuse really
impacted his ability, like, andI think part of the reason why
(04:41):
he, his life ended, I think,sooner than it should have.
And it just got me reallythinking about what's going on
with my own clients right now.
How people are coping anddealing with.
Like the pressures, the postpandemic.
I feel like aftermath, just likethese silent struggles that
people are going through and howit is showing up in their lives
and how they operate and howit's showing up in their
(05:02):
business and like theirrelationship with it.
But it's not something that I.
I hear talked about publicly,like, I think it's like, it
seems like this private thingthat people are wrestling with.
Um, and even just havingconversations.
It's like, it's sometimes these,these things that there's a lot
of shame built around.
It's like it.
We hide it from our partners.
(05:23):
Sometimes people will hide itfrom their, from their business,
they'll hide it from theirtherapist.
And I just, can you maybe breakdown, because right before we
hopped on, I was like, what,what is the terminology that
people are using toself-identify and why are
certain terms, like how do thoseterms really impact?
Um, I think people's wrestlewith the actual, like with
(05:44):
sobriety, like I, I would lovefor you just to share that again
too'cause I feel like that wasreally helpful language that you
gave me.
Yeah.
So first of all, I'm sorry thatyou had to watch that'cause it's
hard enough watching someonedrink that way, but then someone
who doesn't come out of it,that's even harder.
Thank you.
I think too, growing up, Ididn't know it was something I
(06:05):
was like watching, you know?
And I think, you know, even whenI wanted you to come on, I was
like, I've never personallywrestled with like substance
abuse or just like overconsumption.
But I asked myself, okay, whyhave you not?
I'm like, because I saw, I hadvery clear models of what, like
over consuming of something willdo to you.
So I just, I was always beenvery afraid, so I would just do
(06:28):
the complete opposite.
So I've just like never been adrinker.
Or very, you know, I, I mightlike, I still, even now, I mean,
I guess too, as I'm gettingolder, there is no upside to
alcohol, so I'm like, I, I don'teven like doing it when I go out
socially anymore.
But even when I, I shared thatwith you and I'm like, well,
I've never wrestled with it, butfuck, it'd be a good
conversation to bring onto thepodcast.
It made me think, I'm like, it'sbecause I've seen what bad
(06:48):
looked like, and I've been soafraid of it.
I just did the complete oppositeand went to like the far end of
the other extreme.
So.
Thank you for that.
And I think for a long time,even when he passed away, it's
like, I didn't know that's whatI was witnessing.
'cause it just, it, there wasn'ta label, it wasn't really
discussed.
It was just like something youhave to maneuver around.
(07:09):
Yeah.
It's hard to understand whetheryou're a kid and it's your
parent or you're an adult andit's your partner doing it.
And the label that we're kind oftaught is just, that's an
alcoholic someone.
Who's selfish, who, um, doesn'thave any self-control, who
doesn't care about other people,and because that's what we're
(07:32):
consistently shown, like we justapply that to those people.
Yeah.
When you, we only understand ourown experience and when we can
control ourselves when we drink.
I mean, not me obviously, butthe general we, when people can
control themselves when theydrink and then they watch
someone not stop, it's like,what's wrong with you?
(07:54):
Like, why?
Why do you keep doing this?
Mm.
And they don't understand thatperson's experience.
So then when you're on the otherside and you're someone like me.
All of those perceptions, allthe stigma, it gets applied to
us.
And that was something that Ireally grappled with.
Like if I, if I can't figure outhow to control this, I.
(08:17):
It means I have to quit and thatmeans everyone's gonna call me
an alcoholic and I am a loser.
Mm.
I I had this belief that itmeant I was a weak will loser
with no self-control and thatfelt really painful.
So it feels painful hearing yousay that.
Oh yeah.
So obviously I fought to.
To try to control it for as longas I could, because I didn't
(08:40):
want that to become the reality.
Some people are very empoweredby the word alcoholic and that's
awesome.
Other people are very, uh,disempowered by the word, and
they feel like it brings shame.
Like, I know technically that'swhat I am.
I just don't.
(09:01):
Identify that way.
Yeah.
Like I'm not playing any trickson myself over here.
I know the facts, but that worddoesn't help me stay sober and
it doesn't bring me any power,so therefore I don't use it.
Yeah.
I really, I just, I appreciatethe language around it.
'cause it's like, it's not aword we've ever used growing up,
but I'm like, I don't.
(09:21):
I just didn't know how to dis,I'm like even language to even
discuss it and talk about it.
So thank you for that.
Um, I know people are like,okay, girl, we talking about
sobriety on a podcast.
We about three minutes in.
What are we doing here?
I.
And the reason why I wanted tobring this up is because when I
think about this largerconversation that we've been
having on this season of thepodcast about this perception
gap and exploring thisdisconnection between who we are
(09:45):
and how others perceive us andlike what we carry and how we
lead.
When I think about all thesedynamics of what I've witnessed
from my own clients, or even inmy own personal experience as
I'm wrestling with like this,this kind of duality, it's like
there are these.
And I, that's why I wanted tohave this conversation.
'cause I'm like, there arethings that we are doing to numb
ourselves and or ways in which,um, things that we are engaging
(10:09):
in to cope with whatever weneeded to cope with that impacts
not only how others perceive us,but how we perceive ourselves
and how we present.
And I just think like whenyou're running a business and
I'm like, business is thegreatest form of therapy if you
allow it to be, it's like itshines these lights on all these
areas and all the.
That we can be hiding fromourselves in ourselves.
(10:30):
And that directly impacts how weshow up in our business, how we
lead in our business, who wecall in to work with, what
problems we choose to solve.
And I guess I wanna just likestart with like how either in
your own journey or what you'venoticed with clients like I.
When, how, like, how doessobriety just like, like how was
it, like how does sobrietyimpact that perception gap?
(10:51):
Just at like a basic level?
Like what, what have you eithernoticed with yourself?
I'm not sure when in yourjourney you started your
business and when you chose tobecome sober, um, or what you
notice with clients, but likehow does sobriety impact how
you're seeing business ownerslike lead and.
I don't know, I just kind ofwanna maybe just like start with
the basics of that, of justlike, what are you even noticing
(11:12):
right now?
Um, and if somebody who isrunning a business is either
wrestling with becoming sober orremaining sober, like just like
what kind of do they need tohear and what are you noticing
right now?
Yeah, so the, I think the keypoint here is that alcohol
allows us to tolerate.
Things that we normallywouldn't.
(11:35):
Mm.
So you can tolerate those familymembers that you hate.
You can tolerate your badmarriage.
You can tolerate extraordinaryamounts of stress and pressure.
You can tolerate never taking abreak.
Mm.
Or relaxing or having downtime.
(11:55):
People will use it in a way, in,in two ways that I've noticed.
They'll either use it becausethey are productive all the time
and being productive is a bigpart of their identity, and they
feel like.
Rest is bad or lazy.
So they'll go, go, go, go, go,and then they can't turn it off,
(12:16):
but they're so burned out, sothey force themselves off with
alcohol at the end of the day toget me time.
So, and then they go back again.
Thing that will allow them toactually like turn their brain
off.
Okay.
I'm firing off at all cylinders.
So what is, okay, so that wasthe first one.
Go to the second, then I'll comeback.
Yeah.
(12:37):
So the second one that I see is,um, people feel like they have
to be a different person.
Publicly, uh, at work, inmeetings, um, at, at social,
things that have to do with workand they use alcohol to become
(13:00):
that other version.
Hmm.
Usually someone who's moreextroverted, maybe more
charismatic, more fun.
A lot of people, when they quitdrinking.
They just don't wanna go out aslong, so people will use it to
be able to tolerate networkingevents and client dinners and
(13:22):
all of these things and just, ithelps you ignore your inner
signals because alcohol, I.
It squashes your needs.
Oh my goodness.
I mean, I, I feel like I'mrelating to so much of what
you're saying of like ignoringthat inner voice and ignoring
your inner needs, and I'm like,I've seen my own patterns of
(13:43):
doing it.
It's just like I've been, I, howcan I, how have I been able to
tolerate these extremesituations?
It's like been purely throughlike mind body disconnection,
like through self abandonmentand.
When I, I, I, I think that thething that's coming to mind
right now, if somebody were tolistening to this and hearing
like, okay, are you usingalcohol or using some sort of
substance as a means to tolerateand or to, I like shapeshift,
(14:09):
you know, to, to be who youthink you need to be for other
people.
Um, the question that's kind ofcoming up right now is, is like,
if somebody's listening to thisand it's like, well, is my, do I
actually have a problem?
Like, like I, you know, I.
I don't know.
I feel like I'm like listeningto this and I'm like, okay, if
I'm putting myself in somebodyelse's shoes right now, and if
I'm hearing this, it's like thismight be, and the initial
(14:30):
awareness of, I guess, when doyou know, or how would you
advise somebody on, like, whenis it time to maybe reevaluate
the, the substances or thecoping mechanisms that you are
using to either tolerate or tobe somebody that you feel like
you have to be, that you maybearen't at the core like.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
(14:50):
As I'm hearing this, I'm justlike, oh, do I, I'm not thinking
about it from alcohol as asubstance, but other things that
I've done, I'm like, okay.
Like that's a very cleardescription of why I am choosing
to do certain things to toleratecertain situations, and now it's
making me reflect even myself oflike, what is, what is the
coping mechanism that you areusing to.
(15:10):
When, when is a coping mechanismactually healthy versus when do
you are able to identify thatthis is not a healthy choice as
a coping mechanism?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, I.
Usually no one likes my answerto this type of question.
Well, that means it's probablythe truth though.
So, yeah, and people thatstruggle with alcohol or
(15:32):
anything will wrestle with, do Ifit the criteria?
Do I qualify for a very longtime?
But the only criteria.
Is, if you're wondering if youhave a problem, it means you
have a problem.
Like no one wonders about, Idon't wonder if I have a
problem.
(15:52):
Uh, I don't know with anythingwith caffeine because I, I
don't, like, I don't have anyconsequences from it.
It, I don't obsess over it likeI just.
It's whatever.
Mm.
But if you're wondering, itmeans deep down, you know, you
do.
You just desperately don't wantthat to be the truth.
(16:12):
And as for your question aboutlike when some things are okay,
like some people that are notproblem drinkers can dabble here
and there, lean on alcohol alittle bit.
When they have a hard day orwhen they're doing a, a
(16:33):
networking, a bunch of peopleand whatever, and then move on
with their life.
Problem drinkers don't move on.
Mm.
They just think about drinkingall the time.
Even like some people I'veworked with barely drink.
They think about it all thetime, like they almost never
drink and people get stuck onhow often do I have to drink and
(16:56):
how much do I have to drink whenI do, and, and trying to make
the quantity and the frequencybe the criteria.
It's much, well, I thoughtthat's kind of what the criteria
was too, of like, oh, if you, ifyou drink once a quarter or just
like socially or whatever, likeit's.
It's fine.
No, it's how much it dominatesyour thoughts.
(17:17):
Hmm.
Okay.
I think that's like a reallygood reframe and it makes me
just think even like, again, incorrelation to this is like for
business owners or people whoare running businesses, I think
about like, how are you managingyour energetic and cognitive
load?
And like a lot of the time Ithink that cognitive load and,
and what's going on there hasmeans so much more than like
(17:39):
sometimes what these externalmetrics or these external like
public metrics of quote unquotesuccess are.
'cause like what is your ex,what is your experience of the
thing, not just the result ofwhat it is that you're doing.
And I'm kind of hearing thatcorrelation.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Like some, you can take twopeople who drink the same
amount.
(18:00):
And one person has this hugeproblem and the other person is
fine.
Mm-hmm.
Like I've worked with peoplethat drink like one drink
occasionally.
And from over here, I'm like,you are living the life.
That's my dream.
But they're suffering becausethey think about drinking all
the time, and when they dodrink, they feel terrible about
(18:24):
themselves afterwards.
And that's what the problemactually is like.
Obviously for people that arelike, I was a daily drinker, so
obviously I had some problemsyeah.
In my life because of that, but.
For people who aren't drinkingthat amount, it's how it makes
(18:44):
you feel about yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Most, most people don't have adrink and hate themselves
afterwards and feel regret theyhave a drink and they move on
with their lives.
Yeah.
I'm like, I just imagine ifsomebody's like holding this.
In addition to holding theresponsibilities that come with
running a business, in additionto holding the responsibilities
that come with like holdingspace for clients and kind of,
(19:07):
I'm hearing like, okay, yeah,yeah, you might be coping in
private, but like the, there arevery real public consequences to
that.
Like what do, what are younoticing in how this shows up
for, or like what is the adviceto somebody who's maybe
currently wrestling with this,um, is wrestling with like, you
know, sobriety.
Maybe they're on and off, maybethey're able to stop for a
little bit, then.
(19:27):
A launch goes bad and theyspiral, or like a team member
quits last minute and they likerevert back or like they decide
to lean into this.
Like, I don't know, just likewhat are, what are some thoughts
here about like, or the realityof what's required when you are,
when this is your copingmechanism, but you're, I guess,
like how are you managing itall?
Like when somebody's trying tonavigate becoming sober.
(19:50):
Or maybe who already ha is soberand is trying to remain sober,
but they're still dealing withthese like very real activating
pressures that come by naturalway of running a business or
like leading in a dominant role.
Like how do you navigate that?
Yeah.
And that's exactly the thing.
Like it's called the work.
Yeah.
(20:10):
And you like you're hitting thenail on the head.
It is the work like that, thatis it.
It.
That is it.
And when something comes up thatmakes you wanna drink or
emotionally eat or whatever,shop, anything, that's your work
showing up.
Like it creates this pressureand we can either rise up.
(20:31):
And deal with it.
Or we can retreat and lean onthese things that turn it off
temporarily, but make us feelworse later.
Yeah.
Like my me being a workaholicafter I stopped drinking was me
avoiding.
The work, like stuff would getuncomfortable and I'd be like,
(20:52):
okay, bam.
New offer.
Like bam, gonna spend seven daysa week working like no problem.
Look at me.
I'm so productive.
But that was me avoiding, andit's the same thing with any
type of of problem.
We have to eventually face it.
So how do you, or what helpssomebody get to that level of
(21:15):
awareness and then when theystart to,'cause what I heard you
just say is like, oh, okay, I'mnow sober.
I'm gonna just replace thecoping mechanism.
Now with more work, new offers,bigger launches, more calls in
the membership, you know, morecontent, pumping it out, and
like even once you notice thatpattern, it's like, what?
(21:37):
Uh, is there like a first stepor what do you recommend for
somebody to learn how to holdthat level of discomfort?
Which, I mean, I know even justfor me also as a recovering
workaholic, like sitting in thestillness can be so difficult.
Um, and I'm like, okay, I needsome new tools on how to
navigate this.
This activated energy and to beable to put it somewhere and
(21:58):
lean on something else to helpme navigate through it.
But when it comes with sobriety,have you noticed that there's
anything that really doessupport somebody who is at that
level of awareness and, and istrying to make change and stick
with the changes that they'vedecided on?
Yeah.
Awareness is a difficult firststep because whatever you're
using to cope, whether it'salcohol, work, food, whatever,
(22:21):
it feels like it's the solution.
Mm.
Like it feels like it's a toolor a crutch even, but it's
actually the thing that'scausing all the suffering.
Like with alcohol specifically,it's making you more emotional.
It's making you more impulsive,it's increasing your stress
(22:44):
levels and anxiety.
Like it's, it's causing probablya lot of the intensity that
you're experiencing.
Wow.
Yeah.
And it feels like then alcoholrelieves it, so therefore it
helps me feel better about mylife, but it's actually making
life worse.
Yeah.
So just getting that awareness,like for me, it took years to
(23:05):
understand that my approach towork was the problem.
Mm.
I thought like there were otherproblems because it's easier to
blame other things than ourself.
Um, so that awareness, first ofall is really helpful.
And then understanding.
Like, what do you actually haveto work on?
Like if it's being present orexperiencing your emotions, you
(23:29):
don't have to just sit there andexperience everything all at
once.
You can like go on a walk andexperience it slowly, but being
willing to do it and okay withthe suffering is a good second
step.
Hmm.
Yeah.
What I'm also like hearing yousay this is like, I can see it
being challenging too, and thisis what I wrestled with before I
(23:51):
took my sabbatical and evenwhile I'm on it, is like, all
these things though is whatcontributed to why I was
successful.
Mm-hmm.
At least that was a story that Iwas telling myself, like the
impulse ness or like the, youknow, being able to channel all
this energy or being theworkaholic, it's like the, all
these habits while they hadnegative.
Consequences also contributed towhy I became, like, how I
(24:14):
created my success.
And if somebody is likewrestling with that, like is
there any, like, how do you cometo terms with that or, and or
start to like, like you said,that, that that no longer can be
kind of like the fuel source or,I, I realized that my approach
to work, that that couldn't beit anymore long term.
Yeah, a lot of this stuff, andI'm speaking from personal
(24:35):
experience and from what I'veobserved with others, but a lot
of this stuff, there's a verypainful belief and or issue
behind it.
Usually self-worth.
We feel like if I am veryavailable for everyone and I
(24:55):
make all these low priced offersand I just have so many, or like
I have more meetings, or I takemore clients, or I make two
podcast episodes a week insteadof one.
That then the self-worth hole isgoing to get filled.
Mm.
So we're trying to get externalthings to fix internal problems.
(25:19):
Yeah.
And it doesn't work.
Like you can use alcohol to turnoff the self-worth problem
temporarily because it'll likenumb it or make, you know.
Yeah.
Same with food.
Yeah.
Or you can use work to try tofill it.
And give you self worth, butthose things will never do that.
(25:40):
You have to find it insideyourself.
And I guess my argument.
Which I know is factual from myown experience is once you, once
you give up outsourcingself-worth to all of these
external things or otherpeople's opinions or, or moving
the goalposts for money that youmake, whatever it is, you'll
(26:03):
actually be more successfulbecause when you're mentally
healthy.
You just do better.
Like when, if you are trying tohelp clients or you're trying to
even free content, whatever itis, and in the back of your head
you feel like you're a piece ofcrap loser and you don't like
yourself and you're worriedabout your competition and you
(26:24):
have all these threads going onabout low self-worth and other,
and anxiety and.
Uh, not good enough or that yourpersonality is wrong, whatever
it is.
Like you're not, yeah.
You're not showing up.
Well, man, when you are mentallyhealthy, you will do better, I
think is something that I.
(26:44):
It.
I'm like, I'm gonna, I wannalike put that on a post-it note
and like, when you're mentallywell, you will do better.
I think it's like a lot of thetime we intellectually know
this, like, yes, if I'm healthy,I'll be able to live longer,
I'll be able to be more presentwith my kids.
I'll be able to like create froma better place.
Um.
But when you're in the thick ofit and wrestling with whatever
(27:05):
it is that you're wrestlingwith, I feel like that can be a,
a hard truth to like, hold onand believe in when what you've
been doing, even though it'sbeen like ter you know, terrible
consequences for you is that'sled to your success.
It's like to think that like itcan get better.
It will, it actually will bebetter.
Um, I think is really.
(27:25):
Like that was really beautiful.
Um, and I think the other thingthat me and you, I've learned a
lot by knowing you about justsobriety and how it impacts
individuals, but like, somethingthat I've, I feel like I've
really, um, learned from you isthat sobriety isn't just about
drinking, but it's aboutself-trust and.
Just from the conversationswe've had or like listening to
(27:46):
your podcast or reading yourcontent, like can you maybe talk
a little bit about that?
About, I think it kind of stemsfrom what you just said, like
this whole self-worth piece, butit's if most of the Yeah, I just
wanted to hear your thoughts onlike, on that like sobriety
isn't just about drinking, butit's about self-trust.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is something thatpeople eventually learn,
(28:09):
hopefully.
Yeah, because we don't trustthat we're good enough that
people will like us.
Uh, we don't trust our gutinstincts.
We don't trust, um, like our,our feelings or that we can cope
with them or that we can handlelife.
And when you're doing a behaviorthat makes you feel bad about
(28:34):
yourself very consistently.
Your self worth goes into thetrash.
Yeah.
And you prove to yourself thatyou don't follow through with
what you say.
That maybe you feel like you'relazy, unmotivated, or you're a
loser, like whatever thelabeling is, it makes you think
really bad things aboutyourself.
(28:55):
So why would you trust thatperson, the person that's
continuously sabotaging younonstop?
Yeah.
And a lot of people too,whatever it is, like drinking,
eating, shopping, like doesn'tworking, doesn't matter.
Um, they never learned how tocope in a healthy way, first of
all.
But they never really learnedeither how to.
(29:19):
Trust themselves and be a friendto themselves instead of beating
the crap outta themselves withjudgment and criticism and
worrying about everybody'sopinion and and needing external
validation and praise, and tofill all these holes internally.
And we're the only one that canfill them for ourselves, which
sucks.
(29:40):
It sucks that it has to be thatway, but it's just.
But at least you're, but you'rethe source of your solution
though.
Like it sucks that we have to,and it's like, but you can give
it to yourself.
That, and the most empoweringthing for me, when I got sober,
I thought getting sober, likeI've arrived, where's the
(30:00):
parade?
I did it.
I fixed the problem.
And then I notice like sixmonths in, wait.
I still behave in those waysthat I don't like.
I thought my personality wasgonna be better.
I thought that was the drinking,and I still have all of these
interpersonal issues at work.
(30:21):
Mm.
What's going on here?
I thought this was the alcohol,and I realized I am the common
denominator.
I'm the problem, I'm the drama.
And that was uncomfortable toadmit.
And.
I've realized that about myselfa few times in five years.
But I think when people arefaced with that, that moment
(30:43):
where they can rise up and takeownership and responsibility of
their own pattern, you caneither do that or you can
retreat backwards.
Mm.
And then the lesson willcontinue to show up.
Yeah.
And yeah, I'm always like, wow,I'm the problem here.
I thought it was this externalthing or that person or
(31:04):
whatever.
Once I realized I'm the problem,like bam, I fix it.
Wow.
So I mean, I'm like hearing thisand I'm like, I think that
you've built such a remarkablylike successful and incredible
business, like for yourself, butalso the ripple effect of what
you've been able to supportother, other people with through
their journey of not justmoderating their drinking, but
(31:27):
like.
Going, like being sober withoutmoderation.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour thoughts on moderation?
Um, I wanna start there and thenI wanna talk about like what
the.
Like, now that you're on theother side, but you're still, I
feel like actively makingsobriety as a choice just from
the conversations we have.
It's like, yes, you decide, butthen it's like you have to keep
(31:49):
choosing that.
Um, I wanna talk about thejourney on, on the other end,
but I would love to hear yourthoughts on moderation.
'cause I think in today'sculture and society, like
there's so many now, I don'tknow, there's, I feel like
there's a lot of like marketingand language around this.
Um, but I really wanna hear yourperspective.
Yeah, so moderation feels likeit's the goal, it's the dream.
(32:10):
People who moderate arehealthier than people who
abstain and all of these things,um, none of which are true
actually.
People who moderate arehealthier because they have a
healthier lifestyle and theytypically make more money.
So they're healthier despite thedrinking, not because of it.
(32:34):
Mm.
People who abstain usuallypeople like me are not included
in because I used to drink.
They look at lifetimeabstainers.
Those people drink more soda,eat more junk food.
They're maybe more sedentary,not all the time, but that's
typically what happens instudies.
Um.
You mean like scientific studiesright now?
(32:55):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's where that step like, oh,that it's healthy comes from
like the context is importantthere.
Um, yeah, but with moderation,most people can.
Go live it.
Go live your best life.
I'm happy for you that you don'tknow the struggle.
My husband moderates, he justdoesn't care about alcohol at
(33:18):
all.
But for people who drinkproblematically, moderation is
never possible.
Ever.
Hmm.
No matter what.
And that contextual distinctionis really important.
Yeah, and that's what's hard toaccept, that you can't change
the way that you drink.
And even for people whotechnically moderate, like
people who drink one drink onceor twice a week, but obsess
(33:42):
about it all the time and feelshame for it like that, that's
not actually moderation, eventhough you're really doing it,
it's still But you're havingconstant thoughts though.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And with.
A lot of people will take breaksto try to cure themselves, which
I did too.
And when you take a break, ofcourse you're not gonna drink as
(34:04):
much when you first get back toit.
If the break was long enoughbecause you've broken the
habitual pattern, your tolerancehas decreased, whatever, but.
Having a problem and thatvulnerability to it is in you.
Mm.
Like you have all the riskfactors that are there.
You just need the lifecircumstances to line up.
(34:26):
And you can't keep your lifetightly controlled and perfect
forever.
Like something's gonna happen.
Grief, too much stress at work,moving to wine country, I don't
know, like something mighthappen.
And then you compromise therules 1% and then bam.
You are done.
(34:48):
So thank you for that.
I mean, I feel like that, I feellike you are the person when,
um, you know, moderation doesn'twork.
It's like, when I think aboutthat, I think about you and I
wanna really talk to about like,what somebody can't expect once
they're maybe like, okay, I amsober.
I'm choosing this as a lifestylefor myself.
Um, especially, again, I, I, Iwanna contextualize this and I
(35:11):
wanted you to have thisconversation because I'm like,
you also run a.
Really big business and like asuper successful business.
You run a very popular podcastand like, and you're still
choosing to do this with alllike, and that's just business.
I'm not even talking about like,you know, all the life dynamics
that you have, like when, whensomebody's on the other side and
like sobriety is a lifestylethat they're living and like
(35:32):
what has really helped you atthe different stages of your.
Your journey in sobriety, likemaybe, you know, the, the early
stages, like the first threemonths versus like six months,
six through, um, one year andnow like you're over five years.
Like, I would love to hear like,at the different seasons of your
journey, what has been mostsupportive for you to allow you
(35:52):
to like, keep choosing yourselfand keep trusting yourself and
like keep filling that cup ofself-worth versus like going
back.
In the beginning, sobrietydominates most people's minds.
Mm-hmm.
You just think about it all thetime.
You future trip about thatwedding that you have a year
(36:15):
from now, and the champagnetoast.
That's what I did.
Um.
How am I ever gonna go onvacation again?
I haven't even been to Franceyet.
How am I gonna go there and notdrink?
What about, what about my, mykid when they get married, how
am I not gonna drink at theirwedding?
But their kid's only five yearsold and like we future trip.
(36:39):
But they trip.
Yeah.
And everything's a trigger.
Everything reminds you like younotice how much.
Alcohol's on TV all the time andall the ads, and you just start
seeing it.
Your feelings rush back in afterbeing numbed for so long and
it's really uncomfortable.
(37:00):
So the first few months are justabout like getting through it.
A lot of people will lean onsugar, like that's whatever.
It's, you can deal with thatlater.
Um.
Emotions will be really volatileand maybe you're really happy,
then you're really sad, thenyou're really mad.
And all of it is very normalbecause.
(37:23):
You're someone who likely hasn'tlearned a lot of coping skills,
otherwise you wouldn't have hadto drink that much alcohol.
So now you're just in your lifewith no coping skills.
Mm-hmm.
So for me, that was the biggestpart of it.
Like how do I just deal withthings like every minor
inconvenience would set me offand frazzle me, and the reminder
(37:47):
that I have is just like, youwill be so much more capable.
Six months from now, a year fromnow, like you're going to build
skills over time.
This is not just what sobrietyis.
And then as you continue on.
And you do different things onthe weekend and you have new
(38:07):
friends, and you have more of alife than the thoughts of like,
maybe I'm cured, maybe it's beenlong enough, maybe I can
moderate now.
Like maybe I went overboard withthis whole thing.
And when that happens, it'susually because other stuff in
life is coming up that'suncomfortable and it's much
(38:29):
easier to retreat back into.
A old comforting,self-destructive behavior than
it is to rise up and moveforward and address a problem.
But thoughts of moderation arealso normal.
The key is just accepting thatyou're done.
Mm-hmm.
If you're, if you're fightingthat acceptance, you're gonna
(38:53):
flip flop for a while.
Like I was never done until Irealized I cannot change the way
that I drink no matter.
What, and helping other peoplenow, it really helps me stay on
the right path.
Mm-hmm.
Um, having a life actuallyliking my life.
(39:13):
Some people don't do any work onthemselves when they quit
drinking.
It's called being a dry drunk.
And they're just the sameperson, but without the alcohol.
So they're miserable all thetime and that makes you really
vulnerable to going back toalcohol or picking up something
else.
Yeah.
I'm like, what I keep hearingyou say is like, okay, there are
(39:37):
a lack of fundamental skillsthat need to be developed in
order to maintain and sustainthis long term.
And when I think about skilldevelopment, even in my own
life, I'm like, okay, I could golisten to a podcast, I could go
read a book.
But like usually when it's likelarger skill developments, I'm
like, no, I need to go totherapy.
I need to have my own coach.
(39:58):
I need to be in community withother people to build my belief
that like.
Or maybe borrow somebody else'sbelief when I'm like lacking on
my own.
Like how has like external.
Support really like help younavigate this.
And again, I'm just thinking oflike when you, I feel like, oh,
like let me go do this in likesome silo.
But I'm like, I know the type ofclients that you work with and
(40:19):
even for yourself, it's likethese people are leading very
big roles.
They're high pressure jobs, theyhave a lot of responsibility on
their plate that they'reresponsible for.
And it's just like, you know,and I'm hearing all this
emotional volatility.
I can hear somebody.
Thinking like I have way toomuch shit going on right now.
I cannot handle like.
(40:40):
Yes, my, yes, this is a problem.
Or like, yes, whatever, but likethere's too much going on at
work for me to have to also dealwith this like emotional
volatility that's gonna happen,that that could happen and will
continue to happen as I'mdeveloping these new skill sets.
Like what do you, how, how haveyou been able to help, or what
has been most useful to helpsomebody be able to hold that
duality, um, of theresponsibilities that they need
(41:02):
to show up for that?
Like, don't stop just becausethey are now sober.
But also like in the midst oflike learning these new skills.
I mean, I think that's true inbusiness.
Like we're always like doingboth and, but I don't know.
I would love to hear yourperspective on that.
Yeah.
It's much easier to do anythingwhen you don't hate yourself.
(41:25):
So even though quitting drinkingdidn't magically make me like
myself, I wasn't doing.
Something every day that made mehate my own guts.
Yeah, that's So I just got fullbody chills.
Oh my gosh.
Like that's part of it.
Yeah.
Another part of it too is likethat those emotional ups and
downs are there.
(41:46):
You're just turning them offevery night or however many
nights a week with drinking.
They're still there all day.
You're still overreacting tothings, taking things
personally, like you're stilldoing all of it.
Yeah.
Um.
And what people see is that oncethey get to like six weeks even,
they just feel space likethey're not obsessing anymore.
(42:12):
They can look at their life andbe like, I don't need to really
prove myself so hard in thisarea anymore.
Maybe I don't have to spend anextra hour tonight doing emails
or stupid whatever.
They choose other things andthen that makes their life
better.
So it's not as bad as peopleexpect, like you are in the bad
(42:33):
part, right?
You're drinking.
That's the bad part.
What?
Whatever's next is always lessbad.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
So how is it now five yearssober, helping hundred thousands
of people, um, also navigatingthis journey?
Like, tell us like how good it'sgotten.
(42:56):
I mean, I know it's not perfect,like that's life, you know, but
like, what is.
What has, like, what's been ableto be unlocked in either what
you now believe is possible,your relationship with your own
desires and pleasure, um, andemotions now.
Like what does, like, what doeslife look like in business look
like for you now?
Like at, you know, how has itgotten better?
(43:19):
Yeah.
My life is better in everysingle way.
Um, I went from, I would evenstart thinking about a goal.
And I couldn't finish thethought because my other voice
in my head would be like, you'renot gonna do that.
Mm-hmm.
And now I have a goal and I'mlike, why not me?
(43:44):
And then I pursue the goal.
That's a huge, yeah.
And I.
Really like myself and my life.
Before I hated myself and Ihated my life, and I thought it
was everyone else's fault, andthe drinking was like a two hour
escape from a life and a personthat I hated me.
(44:08):
I was a person, and I didn'trealize that those two hours
were causing 22 hours of misery.
Mm-hmm.
Now.
I wake up and I walk around andI'm like, yes.
Like some days I wake up at four30.
I'm so excited to start my day.
'cause I just love my life.
(44:29):
I, I don't know, it's just onceyou remove something that's
dragging you down and then youfind some and you accept the
things that you have to work onand the skills you have to
learn.
Yeah.
It's just endless.
And I was struggling with theworkaholic stuff a lot too.
(44:50):
That was a, that was a huge, uh,crutch for me.
And I thought, you said itreally well earlier, you said
when you want like a new skillor something, you can listen to
a podcast or read a book, butwhen you wanna make a major life
change.
You need more than a podcastusually.
(45:12):
Yeah.
You need like other people, youneed someone to model the kind
of life that you want or thekind of business that you want
or something.
And even though like when I madethe decision to not be a
workaholic anymore, I kind ofknew like what I should do, but
(45:35):
I still wanted your support tokeep me.
Courageous and pursuing itbecause you can, like I said,
like a, a moment will come upthat's really uncomfortable and
you can either rise to theoccasion or revert back.
Yeah.
And like group coaching itis or,you know, new offer itis, like
all these little things.
(45:55):
And it's so nice to have someoneelse just support you or, or a
community of people, whatever itis.
Um.
So I thought that was key.
And with drinkers, we usuallydon't have very many role models
or people that we like, people'slives that we look up to and
like, wow, I want that for me.
(46:16):
And that's where support reallyhelps, because you see examples
of that and you see examples ofpeople coping in real time and
dealing with things.
Yeah.
And then you learn from that.
It's not just.
Reading or hearing someone on apodcast say like, walks are
really good for stressmanagement.
(46:38):
It's like, no shit.
Sherlock.
Like, learn how to reframe.
Uh, I mean, it's just, it'sbeen, I'm still nervous about
this episode and, but I feellike it's such an important
conversation.
Um, and just something that,like, whether it's alcohol or
food or shopping or work, like,I think we all have these coping
(46:59):
mechanisms and sometimes cookingmech.
Coping mechanism, copingmechanisms good.
The Lord are helpful andhealthy.
Um, I feel like this was just, Igot full body chills multiple
times during this conversationwith you, and I'm just like,
what are you working on now?
I already know somebodylistening to this is like, uh,
who is this Jill woman?
How have I never known abouther?
(47:19):
Where do I get more of her?
And luckily y'all, she has somuch.
Uh, she has just.
Where do people need to gobecause you have so much
goodness to share whethersomebody's dealing with sobriety
as an individual or if they havea loved one who's navigating it.
Um, I feel like what you do isso distinctly different than a
(47:39):
lot of other, like, sober spacesin the, in the, in the industry.
And I just think that you've.
I'm just, I'm proud to know you.
I'm really honored to be able towitness your work.
Um, and I just think it'sbeautiful what you've created
and like this, the, the nichespecific lane that you have, but
like where can people learn moreabout you?
What's coming up and what'scoming out that they need to
(48:01):
know about.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Um.
So my best work is on mypodcast, sober Powered.
So if you wanna understand whyyou can't drink like everybody
else, that's where you shouldgo.
Uh, and what's next?
I'm writing a book about whypeople can't moderate.
(48:25):
So I hope that in the futurewhen people see someone who took
a break and they now think thatthey're cured, they say, Hey,
did you read this book?
And then they don't go back.
Yeah.
And get even more proof thatthey're still not cured.
Mm.
She also has an incrediblemembership.
(48:46):
If you are looking to be incommunity with other individuals
who are navigating this, and shehas a select space for private
one-on-one coaching, if you'relike, I want somebody a little
bit more hands-on andpersonalized for your
experience, I want to make surethey are aware of that about
you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Um, but just that's a weak spotof mine is mentioning my own
(49:09):
work.
Well, I will name it for them.
Um, or like I said, if it's notyou, if it's somebody that you
know that needs this, um, tosupport in their journey, like
let them know about Jill.
But again, thank you for.
Having like such a, this stillfeels like a very tender,
vulnerable conversation and Ijust really appreciate being
able to bring you on to be ableto have this conversation with
(49:31):
me and with everybody listening.
So just thank you so much forbeing here.
Yeah, thank you.
And thanks for raising awarenessfor this.
Yeah.
So thank you so much.
We will see y'all in the nextepisode, everybody.
Hey.
(00:00):
Hey.
Now before we get into today'sepisode, this is the first time
we've ever explored this topicof sobriety and substance on the
podcast, but it felt soimportant to bring this
conversation to the tablebecause the truth is substance
abuse.
Impacts so many entrepreneurs,high performers, and the people
that they love, and it's oftensomething we don't talk about
(00:22):
out loud.
So if you or someone you careabout is struggling, you are not
alone.
There is support.
You can call the S-A-M-H-S-Ahotline to get help.
It's free, confidential, andavailable 24 7.
So please take care of yourselfas you listen.
Now let me introduce you totoday's guest.
I've had the honor of knowingJillian Tets for a few months
(00:44):
now, and she's the host of theSober Powered Podcast.
It is one of the top ratedpodcasts in the sobriety space
she is a certified sober coach.
Since getting sober in 2019,she's been on a mission to help
others understand the why behindtheir drinking and why it has
nothing to do with being aweak-willed loser.
(01:05):
With a background inbiochemistry and lived
experience and recovery, Jillbrings a powerful mix of science
and heart to her work.
She teaches how alcohol actuallychanges the brain and how real
freedom comes fromself-awareness.
Emotional regulation and doingthe work.
Jill is somebody I reallytrusted with the tenderness of
(01:26):
bringing this conversation tothe podcast.
And in this season when we aretalking about the perception
gap, how others perceive us, butmore importantly, how we
perceive ourselves and how weare showing up to lead, how we
are showing up to be visible.
How are you showing up to growand build our businesses and
what is.
Impacting that or making itdifficult to do that and owning
(01:46):
our full truth.
I just knew that this was one ofthe conversations that had to be
had about how we might becoping, what we might be using
to tolerate discomfort andunease in our lives.
And I'm just really honored tohave this conversation with you.
I am a little nervous.
Because we've never done it onthe podcast, but I really hope
you enjoy this conversation.
(02:07):
I hope that it, helps you orhelps somebody that you know and
love, and I cannot wait to hearyour feedback on it.
But let's get into today'sepisode.
Y'all.
I am so excited to have thisconversation.
I'm a little nervous to havethis conversation right now to
be also fully transparent'causeI don't think we've ever really
talked about this type ofdynamic on the podcast, but I
am, Jill is the only person Iwanted to have this conversation
(02:29):
with and that I felt safebringing this type of
conversation to the podcastwith.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
It's, it's cool to be, uh, in aconversation like this with you.
Yeah, I know.
I'm nervous too.
Uh, well, I mean, I know I gavea really in depth background
through your bio, but can youlike, just give us a lay of the
(02:51):
land of like what, how do youcontribute through your work and
through your business, um, as aprofessor, but also in your
business?
Like what is the work that youdo right now?
And kind of just give us a shortbreakdown of kind of like who
you are and kind of how you'recontributing right now.
I feel like if people who knowme think of me, they probably
think about all of the sciencethat I share.
(03:14):
So I, I help people understandbasically why they can't control
their drinking.
And then I'm really big on thefact that problem drinkers can't
learn how to moderate.
Mm.
So I've spent almost five yearsjust really educate, or over
five years actually educatingmyself on like why this happens
(03:36):
to people and why some peoplecan choose to drink heavily and
then choose to not, and otherpeople don't have a choice.
They just.
Go hard or they have to besober, and I wanted to
understand why that happened tome and if it was because I was a
loser or not.
Hmm.
(03:56):
That was the motivation I.
Part of the reason I wanted tohave this conversation is, um,
and just, and get in fulltransparency, like my father
passed away last year in 2024,and alcohol being, I always
labeled him as an alcoholic.
Like, or I, I didn't know how toproperly label because I think
growing up in our household, wejust like didn't talk about it.
(04:19):
Like if just there were peoplein the family that drank Mm.
A little bit more at the holidaygatherings than others, and it's
like, oh, okay.
They're just being who they are.
But as a kid growing up, I justsaw how it impacted him and I
just see towards like, you know,his unexpected death.
Like you could tell how thattype of substance abuse really
impacted his ability, like, andI think part of the reason why
(04:41):
he, his life ended, I think,sooner than it should have.
And it just got me reallythinking about what's going on
with my own clients right now.
How people are coping anddealing with.
Like the pressures, the postpandemic.
I feel like aftermath, just likethese silent struggles that
people are going through and howit is showing up in their lives
and how they operate and howit's showing up in their
(05:02):
business and like theirrelationship with it.
But it's not something that I.
I hear talked about publicly,like, I think it's like, it
seems like this private thingthat people are wrestling with.
Um, and even just havingconversations.
It's like, it's sometimes these,these things that there's a lot
of shame built around.
It's like it.
We hide it from our partners.
(05:23):
Sometimes people will hide itfrom their, from their business,
they'll hide it from theirtherapist.
And I just, can you maybe breakdown, because right before we
hopped on, I was like, what,what is the terminology that
people are using toself-identify and why are
certain terms, like how do thoseterms really impact?
Um, I think people's wrestlewith the actual, like with
(05:44):
sobriety, like I, I would lovefor you just to share that again
too'cause I feel like that wasreally helpful language that you
gave me.
Yeah.
So first of all, I'm sorry thatyou had to watch that'cause it's
hard enough watching someonedrink that way, but then someone
who doesn't come out of it,that's even harder.
Thank you.
I think too, growing up, Ididn't know it was something I
(06:05):
was like watching, you know?
And I think, you know, even whenI wanted you to come on, I was
like, I've never personallywrestled with like substance
abuse or just like overconsumption.
But I asked myself, okay, whyhave you not?
I'm like, because I saw, I hadvery clear models of what, like
over consuming of something willdo to you.
So I just, I was always beenvery afraid, so I would just do
(06:28):
the complete opposite.
So I've just like never been adrinker.
Or very, you know, I, I mightlike, I still, even now, I mean,
I guess too, as I'm gettingolder, there is no upside to
alcohol, so I'm like, I, I don'teven like doing it when I go out
socially anymore.
But even when I, I shared thatwith you and I'm like, well,
I've never wrestled with it, butfuck, it'd be a good
conversation to bring onto thepodcast.
It made me think, I'm like, it'sbecause I've seen what bad
(06:48):
looked like, and I've been soafraid of it.
I just did the complete oppositeand went to like the far end of
the other extreme.
So.
Thank you for that.
And I think for a long time,even when he passed away, it's
like, I didn't know that's whatI was witnessing.
'cause it just, it, there wasn'ta label, it wasn't really
discussed.
It was just like something youhave to maneuver around.
(07:09):
Yeah.
It's hard to understand whetheryou're a kid and it's your
parent or you're an adult andit's your partner doing it.
And the label that we're kind oftaught is just, that's an
alcoholic someone.
Who's selfish, who, um, doesn'thave any self-control, who
doesn't care about other people,and because that's what we're
(07:32):
consistently shown, like we justapply that to those people.
Yeah.
When you, we only understand ourown experience and when we can
control ourselves when we drink.
I mean, not me obviously, butthe general we, when people can
control themselves when theydrink and then they watch
someone not stop, it's like,what's wrong with you?
(07:54):
Like, why?
Why do you keep doing this?
Mm.
And they don't understand thatperson's experience.
So then when you're on the otherside and you're someone like me.
All of those perceptions, allthe stigma, it gets applied to
us.
And that was something that Ireally grappled with.
Like if I, if I can't figure outhow to control this, I.
(08:17):
It means I have to quit and thatmeans everyone's gonna call me
an alcoholic and I am a loser.
Mm.
I I had this belief that itmeant I was a weak will loser
with no self-control and thatfelt really painful.
So it feels painful hearing yousay that.
Oh yeah.
So obviously I fought to.
To try to control it for as longas I could, because I didn't
(08:40):
want that to become the reality.
Some people are very empoweredby the word alcoholic and that's
awesome.
Other people are very, uh,disempowered by the word, and
they feel like it brings shame.
Like, I know technically that'swhat I am.
I just don't.
(09:01):
Identify that way.
Yeah.
Like I'm not playing any trickson myself over here.
I know the facts, but that worddoesn't help me stay sober and
it doesn't bring me any power,so therefore I don't use it.
Yeah.
I really, I just, I appreciatethe language around it.
'cause it's like, it's not aword we've ever used growing up,
but I'm like, I don't.
(09:21):
I just didn't know how to dis,I'm like even language to even
discuss it and talk about it.
So thank you for that.
Um, I know people are like,okay, girl, we talking about
sobriety on a podcast.
We about three minutes in.
What are we doing here?
I.
And the reason why I wanted tobring this up is because when I
think about this largerconversation that we've been
having on this season of thepodcast about this perception
gap and exploring thisdisconnection between who we are
(09:45):
and how others perceive us andlike what we carry and how we
lead.
When I think about all thesedynamics of what I've witnessed
from my own clients, or even inmy own personal experience as
I'm wrestling with like this,this kind of duality, it's like
there are these.
And I, that's why I wanted tohave this conversation.
'cause I'm like, there arethings that we are doing to numb
ourselves and or ways in which,um, things that we are engaging
(10:09):
in to cope with whatever weneeded to cope with that impacts
not only how others perceive us,but how we perceive ourselves
and how we present.
And I just think like whenyou're running a business and
I'm like, business is thegreatest form of therapy if you
allow it to be, it's like itshines these lights on all these
areas and all the.
That we can be hiding fromourselves in ourselves.
(10:30):
And that directly impacts how weshow up in our business, how we
lead in our business, who wecall in to work with, what
problems we choose to solve.
And I guess I wanna just likestart with like how either in
your own journey or what you'venoticed with clients like I.
When, how, like, how doessobriety just like, like how was
it, like how does sobrietyimpact that perception gap?
(10:51):
Just at like a basic level?
Like what, what have you eithernoticed with yourself?
I'm not sure when in yourjourney you started your
business and when you chose tobecome sober, um, or what you
notice with clients, but likehow does sobriety impact how
you're seeing business ownerslike lead and.
I don't know, I just kind ofwanna maybe just like start with
the basics of that, of justlike, what are you even noticing
(11:12):
right now?
Um, and if somebody who isrunning a business is either
wrestling with becoming sober orremaining sober, like just like
what kind of do they need tohear and what are you noticing
right now?
Yeah, so the, I think the keypoint here is that alcohol
allows us to tolerate.
Things that we normallywouldn't.
(11:35):
Mm.
So you can tolerate those familymembers that you hate.
You can tolerate your badmarriage.
You can tolerate extraordinaryamounts of stress and pressure.
You can tolerate never taking abreak.
Mm.
Or relaxing or having downtime.
(11:55):
People will use it in a way, in,in two ways that I've noticed.
They'll either use it becausethey are productive all the time
and being productive is a bigpart of their identity, and they
feel like.
Rest is bad or lazy.
So they'll go, go, go, go, go,and then they can't turn it off,
(12:16):
but they're so burned out, sothey force themselves off with
alcohol at the end of the day toget me time.
So, and then they go back again.
Thing that will allow them toactually like turn their brain
off.
Okay.
I'm firing off at all cylinders.
So what is, okay, so that wasthe first one.
Go to the second, then I'll comeback.
Yeah.
(12:37):
So the second one that I see is,um, people feel like they have
to be a different person.
Publicly, uh, at work, inmeetings, um, at, at social,
things that have to do with workand they use alcohol to become
(13:00):
that other version.
Hmm.
Usually someone who's moreextroverted, maybe more
charismatic, more fun.
A lot of people, when they quitdrinking.
They just don't wanna go out aslong, so people will use it to
be able to tolerate networkingevents and client dinners and
(13:22):
all of these things and just, ithelps you ignore your inner
signals because alcohol, I.
It squashes your needs.
Oh my goodness.
I mean, I, I feel like I'mrelating to so much of what
you're saying of like ignoringthat inner voice and ignoring
your inner needs, and I'm like,I've seen my own patterns of
(13:43):
doing it.
It's just like I've been, I, howcan I, how have I been able to
tolerate these extremesituations?
It's like been purely throughlike mind body disconnection,
like through self abandonmentand.
When I, I, I, I think that thething that's coming to mind
right now, if somebody were tolistening to this and hearing
like, okay, are you usingalcohol or using some sort of
substance as a means to tolerateand or to, I like shapeshift,
(14:09):
you know, to, to be who youthink you need to be for other
people.
Um, the question that's kind ofcoming up right now is, is like,
if somebody's listening to thisand it's like, well, is my, do I
actually have a problem?
Like, like I, you know, I.
I don't know.
I feel like I'm like listeningto this and I'm like, okay, if
I'm putting myself in somebodyelse's shoes right now, and if
I'm hearing this, it's like thismight be, and the initial
(14:30):
awareness of, I guess, when doyou know, or how would you
advise somebody on, like, whenis it time to maybe reevaluate
the, the substances or thecoping mechanisms that you are
using to either tolerate or tobe somebody that you feel like
you have to be, that you maybearen't at the core like.
Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
(14:50):
As I'm hearing this, I'm justlike, oh, do I, I'm not thinking
about it from alcohol as asubstance, but other things that
I've done, I'm like, okay.
Like that's a very cleardescription of why I am choosing
to do certain things to toleratecertain situations, and now it's
making me reflect even myself oflike, what is, what is the
coping mechanism that you areusing to.
(15:10):
When, when is a coping mechanismactually healthy versus when do
you are able to identify thatthis is not a healthy choice as
a coping mechanism?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Um, I.
Usually no one likes my answerto this type of question.
Well, that means it's probablythe truth though.
So, yeah, and people thatstruggle with alcohol or
(15:32):
anything will wrestle with, do Ifit the criteria?
Do I qualify for a very longtime?
But the only criteria.
Is, if you're wondering if youhave a problem, it means you
have a problem.
Like no one wonders about, Idon't wonder if I have a
problem.
(15:52):
Uh, I don't know with anythingwith caffeine because I, I
don't, like, I don't have anyconsequences from it.
It, I don't obsess over it likeI just.
It's whatever.
Mm.
But if you're wondering, itmeans deep down, you know, you
do.
You just desperately don't wantthat to be the truth.
(16:12):
And as for your question aboutlike when some things are okay,
like some people that are notproblem drinkers can dabble here
and there, lean on alcohol alittle bit.
When they have a hard day orwhen they're doing a, a
(16:33):
networking, a bunch of peopleand whatever, and then move on
with their life.
Problem drinkers don't move on.
Mm.
They just think about drinkingall the time.
Even like some people I'veworked with barely drink.
They think about it all thetime, like they almost never
drink and people get stuck onhow often do I have to drink and
(16:56):
how much do I have to drink whenI do, and, and trying to make
the quantity and the frequencybe the criteria.
It's much, well, I thoughtthat's kind of what the criteria
was too, of like, oh, if you, ifyou drink once a quarter or just
like socially or whatever, likeit's.
It's fine.
No, it's how much it dominatesyour thoughts.
(17:17):
Hmm.
Okay.
I think that's like a reallygood reframe and it makes me
just think even like, again, incorrelation to this is like for
business owners or people whoare running businesses, I think
about like, how are you managingyour energetic and cognitive
load?
And like a lot of the time Ithink that cognitive load and,
and what's going on there hasmeans so much more than like
(17:39):
sometimes what these externalmetrics or these external like
public metrics of quote unquotesuccess are.
'cause like what is your ex,what is your experience of the
thing, not just the result ofwhat it is that you're doing.
And I'm kind of hearing thatcorrelation.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Like some, you can take twopeople who drink the same
amount.
(18:00):
And one person has this hugeproblem and the other person is
fine.
Mm-hmm.
Like I've worked with peoplethat drink like one drink
occasionally.
And from over here, I'm like,you are living the life.
That's my dream.
But they're suffering becausethey think about drinking all
the time, and when they dodrink, they feel terrible about
(18:24):
themselves afterwards.
And that's what the problemactually is like.
Obviously for people that arelike, I was a daily drinker, so
obviously I had some problemsyeah.
In my life because of that, but.
For people who aren't drinkingthat amount, it's how it makes
(18:44):
you feel about yourself.
Mm-hmm.
Most, most people don't have adrink and hate themselves
afterwards and feel regret theyhave a drink and they move on
with their lives.
Yeah.
I'm like, I just imagine ifsomebody's like holding this.
In addition to holding theresponsibilities that come with
running a business, in additionto holding the responsibilities
that come with like holdingspace for clients and kind of,
(19:07):
I'm hearing like, okay, yeah,yeah, you might be coping in
private, but like the, there arevery real public consequences to
that.
Like what do, what are younoticing in how this shows up
for, or like what is the adviceto somebody who's maybe
currently wrestling with this,um, is wrestling with like, you
know, sobriety.
Maybe they're on and off, maybethey're able to stop for a
little bit, then.
(19:27):
A launch goes bad and theyspiral, or like a team member
quits last minute and they likerevert back or like they decide
to lean into this.
Like, I don't know, just likewhat are, what are some thoughts
here about like, or the realityof what's required when you are,
when this is your copingmechanism, but you're, I guess,
like how are you managing itall?
Like when somebody's trying tonavigate becoming sober.
(19:50):
Or maybe who already ha is soberand is trying to remain sober,
but they're still dealing withthese like very real activating
pressures that come by naturalway of running a business or
like leading in a dominant role.
Like how do you navigate that?
Yeah.
And that's exactly the thing.
Like it's called the work.
Yeah.
(20:10):
And you like you're hitting thenail on the head.
It is the work like that, thatis it.
It.
That is it.
And when something comes up thatmakes you wanna drink or
emotionally eat or whatever,shop, anything, that's your work
showing up.
Like it creates this pressureand we can either rise up.
(20:31):
And deal with it.
Or we can retreat and lean onthese things that turn it off
temporarily, but make us feelworse later.
Yeah.
Like my me being a workaholicafter I stopped drinking was me
avoiding.
The work, like stuff would getuncomfortable and I'd be like,
(20:52):
okay, bam.
New offer.
Like bam, gonna spend seven daysa week working like no problem.
Look at me.
I'm so productive.
But that was me avoiding, andit's the same thing with any
type of of problem.
We have to eventually face it.
So how do you, or what helpssomebody get to that level of
(21:15):
awareness and then when theystart to,'cause what I heard you
just say is like, oh, okay, I'mnow sober.
I'm gonna just replace thecoping mechanism.
Now with more work, new offers,bigger launches, more calls in
the membership, you know, morecontent, pumping it out, and
like even once you notice thatpattern, it's like, what?
(21:37):
Uh, is there like a first stepor what do you recommend for
somebody to learn how to holdthat level of discomfort?
Which, I mean, I know even justfor me also as a recovering
workaholic, like sitting in thestillness can be so difficult.
Um, and I'm like, okay, I needsome new tools on how to
navigate this.
This activated energy and to beable to put it somewhere and
(21:58):
lean on something else to helpme navigate through it.
But when it comes with sobriety,have you noticed that there's
anything that really doessupport somebody who is at that
level of awareness and, and istrying to make change and stick
with the changes that they'vedecided on?
Yeah.
Awareness is a difficult firststep because whatever you're
using to cope, whether it'salcohol, work, food, whatever,
(22:21):
it feels like it's the solution.
Mm.
Like it feels like it's a toolor a crutch even, but it's
actually the thing that'scausing all the suffering.
Like with alcohol specifically,it's making you more emotional.
It's making you more impulsive,it's increasing your stress
(22:44):
levels and anxiety.
Like it's, it's causing probablya lot of the intensity that
you're experiencing.
Wow.
Yeah.
And it feels like then alcoholrelieves it, so therefore it
helps me feel better about mylife, but it's actually making
life worse.
Yeah.
So just getting that awareness,like for me, it took years to
(23:05):
understand that my approach towork was the problem.
Mm.
I thought like there were otherproblems because it's easier to
blame other things than ourself.
Um, so that awareness, first ofall is really helpful.
And then understanding.
Like, what do you actually haveto work on?
Like if it's being present orexperiencing your emotions, you
(23:29):
don't have to just sit there andexperience everything all at
once.
You can like go on a walk andexperience it slowly, but being
willing to do it and okay withthe suffering is a good second
step.
Hmm.
Yeah.
What I'm also like hearing yousay this is like, I can see it
being challenging too, and thisis what I wrestled with before I
(23:51):
took my sabbatical and evenwhile I'm on it, is like, all
these things though is whatcontributed to why I was
successful.
Mm-hmm.
At least that was a story that Iwas telling myself, like the
impulse ness or like the, youknow, being able to channel all
this energy or being theworkaholic, it's like the, all
these habits while they hadnegative.
Consequences also contributed towhy I became, like, how I
(24:14):
created my success.
And if somebody is likewrestling with that, like is
there any, like, how do you cometo terms with that or, and or
start to like, like you said,that, that that no longer can be
kind of like the fuel source or,I, I realized that my approach
to work, that that couldn't beit anymore long term.
Yeah, a lot of this stuff, andI'm speaking from personal
(24:35):
experience and from what I'veobserved with others, but a lot
of this stuff, there's a verypainful belief and or issue
behind it.
Usually self-worth.
We feel like if I am veryavailable for everyone and I
(24:55):
make all these low priced offersand I just have so many, or like
I have more meetings, or I takemore clients, or I make two
podcast episodes a week insteadof one.
That then the self-worth hole isgoing to get filled.
Mm.
So we're trying to get externalthings to fix internal problems.
(25:19):
Yeah.
And it doesn't work.
Like you can use alcohol to turnoff the self-worth problem
temporarily because it'll likenumb it or make, you know.
Yeah.
Same with food.
Yeah.
Or you can use work to try tofill it.
And give you self worth, butthose things will never do that.
(25:40):
You have to find it insideyourself.
And I guess my argument.
Which I know is factual from myown experience is once you, once
you give up outsourcingself-worth to all of these
external things or otherpeople's opinions or, or moving
the goalposts for money that youmake, whatever it is, you'll
(26:03):
actually be more successfulbecause when you're mentally
healthy.
You just do better.
Like when, if you are trying tohelp clients or you're trying to
even free content, whatever itis, and in the back of your head
you feel like you're a piece ofcrap loser and you don't like
yourself and you're worriedabout your competition and you
(26:24):
have all these threads going onabout low self-worth and other,
and anxiety and.
Uh, not good enough or that yourpersonality is wrong, whatever
it is.
Like you're not, yeah.
You're not showing up.
Well, man, when you are mentallyhealthy, you will do better, I
think is something that I.
(26:44):
It.
I'm like, I'm gonna, I wannalike put that on a post-it note
and like, when you're mentallywell, you will do better.
I think it's like a lot of thetime we intellectually know
this, like, yes, if I'm healthy,I'll be able to live longer,
I'll be able to be more presentwith my kids.
I'll be able to like create froma better place.
Um.
But when you're in the thick ofit and wrestling with whatever
(27:05):
it is that you're wrestlingwith, I feel like that can be a,
a hard truth to like, hold onand believe in when what you've
been doing, even though it'sbeen like ter you know, terrible
consequences for you is that'sled to your success.
It's like to think that like itcan get better.
It will, it actually will bebetter.
Um, I think is really.
(27:25):
Like that was really beautiful.
Um, and I think the other thingthat me and you, I've learned a
lot by knowing you about justsobriety and how it impacts
individuals, but like, somethingthat I've, I feel like I've
really, um, learned from you isthat sobriety isn't just about
drinking, but it's aboutself-trust and.
Just from the conversationswe've had or like listening to
(27:46):
your podcast or reading yourcontent, like can you maybe talk
a little bit about that?
About, I think it kind of stemsfrom what you just said, like
this whole self-worth piece, butit's if most of the Yeah, I just
wanted to hear your thoughts onlike, on that like sobriety
isn't just about drinking, butit's about self-trust.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that is something thatpeople eventually learn,
(28:09):
hopefully.
Yeah, because we don't trustthat we're good enough that
people will like us.
Uh, we don't trust our gutinstincts.
We don't trust, um, like our,our feelings or that we can cope
with them or that we can handlelife.
And when you're doing a behaviorthat makes you feel bad about
(28:34):
yourself very consistently.
Your self worth goes into thetrash.
Yeah.
And you prove to yourself thatyou don't follow through with
what you say.
That maybe you feel like you'relazy, unmotivated, or you're a
loser, like whatever thelabeling is, it makes you think
really bad things aboutyourself.
(28:55):
So why would you trust thatperson, the person that's
continuously sabotaging younonstop?
Yeah.
And a lot of people too,whatever it is, like drinking,
eating, shopping, like doesn'tworking, doesn't matter.
Um, they never learned how tocope in a healthy way, first of
all.
But they never really learnedeither how to.
(29:19):
Trust themselves and be a friendto themselves instead of beating
the crap outta themselves withjudgment and criticism and
worrying about everybody'sopinion and and needing external
validation and praise, and tofill all these holes internally.
And we're the only one that canfill them for ourselves, which
sucks.
(29:40):
It sucks that it has to be thatway, but it's just.
But at least you're, but you'rethe source of your solution
though.
Like it sucks that we have to,and it's like, but you can give
it to yourself.
That, and the most empoweringthing for me, when I got sober,
I thought getting sober, likeI've arrived, where's the
(30:00):
parade?
I did it.
I fixed the problem.
And then I notice like sixmonths in, wait.
I still behave in those waysthat I don't like.
I thought my personality wasgonna be better.
I thought that was the drinking,and I still have all of these
interpersonal issues at work.
(30:21):
Mm.
What's going on here?
I thought this was the alcohol,and I realized I am the common
denominator.
I'm the problem, I'm the drama.
And that was uncomfortable toadmit.
And.
I've realized that about myselfa few times in five years.
But I think when people arefaced with that, that moment
(30:43):
where they can rise up and takeownership and responsibility of
their own pattern, you caneither do that or you can
retreat backwards.
Mm.
And then the lesson willcontinue to show up.
Yeah.
And yeah, I'm always like, wow,I'm the problem here.
I thought it was this externalthing or that person or
(31:04):
whatever.
Once I realized I'm the problem,like bam, I fix it.
Wow.
So I mean, I'm like hearing thisand I'm like, I think that
you've built such a remarkablylike successful and incredible
business, like for yourself, butalso the ripple effect of what
you've been able to supportother, other people with through
their journey of not justmoderating their drinking, but
(31:27):
like.
Going, like being sober withoutmoderation.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour thoughts on moderation?
Um, I wanna start there and thenI wanna talk about like what
the.
Like, now that you're on theother side, but you're still, I
feel like actively makingsobriety as a choice just from
the conversations we have.
It's like, yes, you decide, butthen it's like you have to keep
(31:49):
choosing that.
Um, I wanna talk about thejourney on, on the other end,
but I would love to hear yourthoughts on moderation.
'cause I think in today'sculture and society, like
there's so many now, I don'tknow, there's, I feel like
there's a lot of like marketingand language around this.
Um, but I really wanna hear yourperspective.
Yeah, so moderation feels likeit's the goal, it's the dream.
(32:10):
People who moderate arehealthier than people who
abstain and all of these things,um, none of which are true
actually.
People who moderate arehealthier because they have a
healthier lifestyle and theytypically make more money.
So they're healthier despite thedrinking, not because of it.
(32:34):
Mm.
People who abstain usuallypeople like me are not included
in because I used to drink.
They look at lifetimeabstainers.
Those people drink more soda,eat more junk food.
They're maybe more sedentary,not all the time, but that's
typically what happens instudies.
Um.
You mean like scientific studiesright now?
(32:55):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's where that step like, oh,that it's healthy comes from
like the context is importantthere.
Um, yeah, but with moderation,most people can.
Go live it.
Go live your best life.
I'm happy for you that you don'tknow the struggle.
My husband moderates, he justdoesn't care about alcohol at
(33:18):
all.
But for people who drinkproblematically, moderation is
never possible.
Ever.
Hmm.
No matter what.
And that contextual distinctionis really important.
Yeah, and that's what's hard toaccept, that you can't change
the way that you drink.
And even for people whotechnically moderate, like
people who drink one drink onceor twice a week, but obsess
(33:42):
about it all the time and feelshame for it like that, that's
not actually moderation, eventhough you're really doing it,
it's still But you're havingconstant thoughts though.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And with.
A lot of people will take breaksto try to cure themselves, which
I did too.
And when you take a break, ofcourse you're not gonna drink as
(34:04):
much when you first get back toit.
If the break was long enoughbecause you've broken the
habitual pattern, your tolerancehas decreased, whatever, but.
Having a problem and thatvulnerability to it is in you.
Mm.
Like you have all the riskfactors that are there.
You just need the lifecircumstances to line up.
(34:26):
And you can't keep your lifetightly controlled and perfect
forever.
Like something's gonna happen.
Grief, too much stress at work,moving to wine country, I don't
know, like something mighthappen.
And then you compromise therules 1% and then bam.
You are done.
(34:48):
So thank you for that.
I mean, I feel like that, I feellike you are the person when,
um, you know, moderation doesn'twork.
It's like, when I think aboutthat, I think about you and I
wanna really talk to about like,what somebody can't expect once
they're maybe like, okay, I amsober.
I'm choosing this as a lifestylefor myself.
Um, especially, again, I, I, Iwanna contextualize this and I
(35:11):
wanted you to have thisconversation because I'm like,
you also run a.
Really big business and like asuper successful business.
You run a very popular podcastand like, and you're still
choosing to do this with alllike, and that's just business.
I'm not even talking about like,you know, all the life dynamics
that you have, like when, whensomebody's on the other side and
like sobriety is a lifestylethat they're living and like
(35:32):
what has really helped you atthe different stages of your.
Your journey in sobriety, likemaybe, you know, the, the early
stages, like the first threemonths versus like six months,
six through, um, one year andnow like you're over five years.
Like, I would love to hear like,at the different seasons of your
journey, what has been mostsupportive for you to allow you
(35:52):
to like, keep choosing yourselfand keep trusting yourself and
like keep filling that cup ofself-worth versus like going
back.
In the beginning, sobrietydominates most people's minds.
Mm-hmm.
You just think about it all thetime.
You future trip about thatwedding that you have a year
(36:15):
from now, and the champagnetoast.
That's what I did.
Um.
How am I ever gonna go onvacation again?
I haven't even been to Franceyet.
How am I gonna go there and notdrink?
What about, what about my, mykid when they get married, how
am I not gonna drink at theirwedding?
But their kid's only five yearsold and like we future trip.
(36:39):
But they trip.
Yeah.
And everything's a trigger.
Everything reminds you like younotice how much.
Alcohol's on TV all the time andall the ads, and you just start
seeing it.
Your feelings rush back in afterbeing numbed for so long and
it's really uncomfortable.
(37:00):
So the first few months are justabout like getting through it.
A lot of people will lean onsugar, like that's whatever.
It's, you can deal with thatlater.
Um.
Emotions will be really volatileand maybe you're really happy,
then you're really sad, thenyou're really mad.
And all of it is very normalbecause.
(37:23):
You're someone who likely hasn'tlearned a lot of coping skills,
otherwise you wouldn't have hadto drink that much alcohol.
So now you're just in your lifewith no coping skills.
Mm-hmm.
So for me, that was the biggestpart of it.
Like how do I just deal withthings like every minor
inconvenience would set me offand frazzle me, and the reminder
(37:47):
that I have is just like, youwill be so much more capable.
Six months from now, a year fromnow, like you're going to build
skills over time.
This is not just what sobrietyis.
And then as you continue on.
And you do different things onthe weekend and you have new
(38:07):
friends, and you have more of alife than the thoughts of like,
maybe I'm cured, maybe it's beenlong enough, maybe I can
moderate now.
Like maybe I went overboard withthis whole thing.
And when that happens, it'susually because other stuff in
life is coming up that'suncomfortable and it's much
(38:29):
easier to retreat back into.
A old comforting,self-destructive behavior than
it is to rise up and moveforward and address a problem.
But thoughts of moderation arealso normal.
The key is just accepting thatyou're done.
Mm-hmm.
If you're, if you're fightingthat acceptance, you're gonna
(38:53):
flip flop for a while.
Like I was never done until Irealized I cannot change the way
that I drink no matter.
What, and helping other peoplenow, it really helps me stay on
the right path.
Mm-hmm.
Um, having a life actuallyliking my life.
(39:13):
Some people don't do any work onthemselves when they quit
drinking.
It's called being a dry drunk.
And they're just the sameperson, but without the alcohol.
So they're miserable all thetime and that makes you really
vulnerable to going back toalcohol or picking up something
else.
Yeah.
I'm like, what I keep hearingyou say is like, okay, there are
(39:37):
a lack of fundamental skillsthat need to be developed in
order to maintain and sustainthis long term.
And when I think about skilldevelopment, even in my own
life, I'm like, okay, I could golisten to a podcast, I could go
read a book.
But like usually when it's likelarger skill developments, I'm
like, no, I need to go totherapy.
I need to have my own coach.
(39:58):
I need to be in community withother people to build my belief
that like.
Or maybe borrow somebody else'sbelief when I'm like lacking on
my own.
Like how has like external.
Support really like help younavigate this.
And again, I'm just thinking oflike when you, I feel like, oh,
like let me go do this in likesome silo.
But I'm like, I know the type ofclients that you work with and
(40:19):
even for yourself, it's likethese people are leading very
big roles.
They're high pressure jobs, theyhave a lot of responsibility on
their plate that they'reresponsible for.
And it's just like, you know,and I'm hearing all this
emotional volatility.
I can hear somebody.
Thinking like I have way toomuch shit going on right now.
I cannot handle like.
(40:40):
Yes, my, yes, this is a problem.
Or like, yes, whatever, but likethere's too much going on at
work for me to have to also dealwith this like emotional
volatility that's gonna happen,that that could happen and will
continue to happen as I'mdeveloping these new skill sets.
Like what do you, how, how haveyou been able to help, or what
has been most useful to helpsomebody be able to hold that
duality, um, of theresponsibilities that they need
(41:02):
to show up for that?
Like, don't stop just becausethey are now sober.
But also like in the midst oflike learning these new skills.
I mean, I think that's true inbusiness.
Like we're always like doingboth and, but I don't know.
I would love to hear yourperspective on that.
Yeah.
It's much easier to do anythingwhen you don't hate yourself.
(41:25):
So even though quitting drinkingdidn't magically make me like
myself, I wasn't doing.
Something every day that made mehate my own guts.
Yeah, that's So I just got fullbody chills.
Oh my gosh.
Like that's part of it.
Yeah.
Another part of it too is likethat those emotional ups and
downs are there.
(41:46):
You're just turning them offevery night or however many
nights a week with drinking.
They're still there all day.
You're still overreacting tothings, taking things
personally, like you're stilldoing all of it.
Yeah.
Um.
And what people see is that oncethey get to like six weeks even,
they just feel space likethey're not obsessing anymore.
(42:12):
They can look at their life andbe like, I don't need to really
prove myself so hard in thisarea anymore.
Maybe I don't have to spend anextra hour tonight doing emails
or stupid whatever.
They choose other things andthen that makes their life
better.
So it's not as bad as peopleexpect, like you are in the bad
(42:33):
part, right?
You're drinking.
That's the bad part.
What?
Whatever's next is always lessbad.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
So how is it now five yearssober, helping hundred thousands
of people, um, also navigatingthis journey?
Like, tell us like how good it'sgotten.
(42:56):
I mean, I know it's not perfect,like that's life, you know, but
like, what is.
What has, like, what's been ableto be unlocked in either what
you now believe is possible,your relationship with your own
desires and pleasure, um, andemotions now.
Like what does, like, what doeslife look like in business look
like for you now?
Like at, you know, how has itgotten better?
(43:19):
Yeah.
My life is better in everysingle way.
Um, I went from, I would evenstart thinking about a goal.
And I couldn't finish thethought because my other voice
in my head would be like, you'renot gonna do that.
Mm-hmm.
And now I have a goal and I'mlike, why not me?
(43:44):
And then I pursue the goal.
That's a huge, yeah.
And I.
Really like myself and my life.
Before I hated myself and Ihated my life, and I thought it
was everyone else's fault, andthe drinking was like a two hour
escape from a life and a personthat I hated me.
(44:08):
I was a person, and I didn'trealize that those two hours
were causing 22 hours of misery.
Mm-hmm.
Now.
I wake up and I walk around andI'm like, yes.
Like some days I wake up at four30.
I'm so excited to start my day.
'cause I just love my life.
(44:29):
I, I don't know, it's just onceyou remove something that's
dragging you down and then youfind some and you accept the
things that you have to work onand the skills you have to
learn.
Yeah.
It's just endless.
And I was struggling with theworkaholic stuff a lot too.
(44:50):
That was a, that was a huge, uh,crutch for me.
And I thought, you said itreally well earlier, you said
when you want like a new skillor something, you can listen to
a podcast or read a book, butwhen you wanna make a major life
change.
You need more than a podcastusually.
(45:12):
Yeah.
You need like other people, youneed someone to model the kind
of life that you want or thekind of business that you want
or something.
And even though like when I madethe decision to not be a
workaholic anymore, I kind ofknew like what I should do, but
(45:35):
I still wanted your support tokeep me.
Courageous and pursuing itbecause you can, like I said,
like a, a moment will come upthat's really uncomfortable and
you can either rise to theoccasion or revert back.
Yeah.
And like group coaching itis or,you know, new offer itis, like
all these little things.
(45:55):
And it's so nice to have someoneelse just support you or, or a
community of people, whatever itis.
Um.
So I thought that was key.
And with drinkers, we usuallydon't have very many role models
or people that we like, people'slives that we look up to and
like, wow, I want that for me.
(46:16):
And that's where support reallyhelps, because you see examples
of that and you see examples ofpeople coping in real time and
dealing with things.
Yeah.
And then you learn from that.
It's not just.
Reading or hearing someone on apodcast say like, walks are
really good for stressmanagement.
(46:38):
It's like, no shit.
Sherlock.
Like, learn how to reframe.
Uh, I mean, it's just, it'sbeen, I'm still nervous about
this episode and, but I feellike it's such an important
conversation.
Um, and just something that,like, whether it's alcohol or
food or shopping or work, like,I think we all have these coping
(46:59):
mechanisms and sometimes cookingmech.
Coping mechanism, copingmechanisms good.
The Lord are helpful andhealthy.
Um, I feel like this was just, Igot full body chills multiple
times during this conversationwith you, and I'm just like,
what are you working on now?
I already know somebodylistening to this is like, uh,
who is this Jill woman?
How have I never known abouther?
(47:19):
Where do I get more of her?
And luckily y'all, she has somuch.
Uh, she has just.
Where do people need to gobecause you have so much
goodness to share whethersomebody's dealing with sobriety
as an individual or if they havea loved one who's navigating it.
Um, I feel like what you do isso distinctly different than a
(47:39):
lot of other, like, sober spacesin the, in the, in the industry.
And I just think that you've.
I'm just, I'm proud to know you.
I'm really honored to be able towitness your work.
Um, and I just think it'sbeautiful what you've created
and like this, the, the nichespecific lane that you have, but
like where can people learn moreabout you?
What's coming up and what'scoming out that they need to
(48:01):
know about.
Thank you.
I appreciate that.
Um.
So my best work is on mypodcast, sober Powered.
So if you wanna understand whyyou can't drink like everybody
else, that's where you shouldgo.
Uh, and what's next?
I'm writing a book about whypeople can't moderate.
(48:25):
So I hope that in the futurewhen people see someone who took
a break and they now think thatthey're cured, they say, Hey,
did you read this book?
And then they don't go back.
Yeah.
And get even more proof thatthey're still not cured.
Mm.
She also has an incrediblemembership.
(48:46):
If you are looking to be incommunity with other individuals
who are navigating this, and shehas a select space for private
one-on-one coaching, if you'relike, I want somebody a little
bit more hands-on andpersonalized for your
experience, I want to make surethey are aware of that about
you.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Um, but just that's a weak spotof mine is mentioning my own
(49:09):
work.
Well, I will name it for them.
Um, or like I said, if it's notyou, if it's somebody that you
know that needs this, um, tosupport in their journey, like
let them know about Jill.
But again, thank you for.
Having like such a, this stillfeels like a very tender,
vulnerable conversation and Ijust really appreciate being
able to bring you on to be ableto have this conversation with
(49:31):
me and with everybody listening.
So just thank you so much forbeing here.
Yeah, thank you.
And thanks for raising awarenessfor this.
Yeah.
So thank you so much.
We will see y'all in the nextepisode, everybody.
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