What Happens When Your Nervous System Is Running Your Business with Morgan Pommells

Unpacking Trauma, Survival Mode, and How It’s Quietly Driving Your Business. If you’ve ever felt like your business success is secretly fueled by anxiety, perfectionism, or needing to “prove” yourself, I think you're going to love this episode as much as I did. 

I sat down with trauma therapist, Morgan Pommells to unpack the real reason high-achieving women entrepreneurs feel burnt out, resentful, or emotionally distant in their own business. This isn’t just mindset, it’s survival mode, and it’s showing up in how you lead.

Why You Should Listen

• Understand the Hidden Impact of Emotionally Immature Parenting: Learn how childhood dynamics may have quietly shaped your survival identity and how it shows up in how you lead, delegate, and over-function.
• Identify Your Trauma Response Patterns in Business: Discover how fight, flight, freeze, and fawn responses manifest as burnout, people-pleasing, perfectionism, or total shutdown during launches and client delivery.
• Stop Hiring Your Parents: Unpack how transference and projection show up when hiring and why you might be subconsciously recreating the very dynamics you’re trying to escape.
• Regulate Your Nervous System for Sustainable Leadership: Get tools to stop reacting from urgency and start leading from safety, presence, and emotional regulation.

Discover why your drive to overdeliver, perfect, or control everything in your business isn’t ambition, it’s survival mode.

Connect with Morgan Pommells: 

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/morganpommells/
• Website: https://morganpommells.com/
• Freedom From Fight or Flight: https://freedom.morganpommells.com/

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Episode Transcript

(00:00):
If you've ever found yourselfconstantly over-functioning,

(00:03):
saying yes when you meant no,holding it all together while
silently falling apart, orwondering why rest makes you
feel guilty.
This episode is about to feellike a deep exhale.
I am joined today by a veryspecial guest, Morgan Pommels, a
therapist and coach.
Whose work stops you right inyour tracks.

(00:24):
Seriously.
In the best way.
Morgan helps high functioningwomen unlearn the habits.
Trauma taught them peoplepleasing perfectionism and
powering through.
I'm like, already, she's readingus for filth, right?
If you grew up in chaos.
You might have built your lifeon pressure pretending and
pushing through Morgan's here tohelp you build something
different.

(00:44):
And in this conversation we'regonna be really talking about
what it looks like to buildsomething softer, something
sustainable, especially asbusiness owners.
So this isn't just accountableabout healing, but it's a
reminder that you don't have toearn your ease and I cannot wait
for you to hear what unfolded.
And before we get into theepisode, I really wanna take a
moment to thank you for leavinga review.

(01:04):
So many of you guys have beenleaving reviews over the past
few weeks, and I just wanna takea moment to acknowledge and just
say thank you.
It means so much.
It helps other listeners findthis podcast.
And I wanna give a quick shoutout here to Oh yes.
Kathy, she said, Isha is sayingthe things I wish I knew 10
years ago.
I'm still not quite sure how Ilanded on her content, but over
the past six months, she'sgotten a lot of yeses and amens

(01:25):
from this girl.
Oh my gosh.
I love that.
I love that her content isdispelling lies about the things
you need to do to build asuccessful business.
I too have been on a journey ofdeveloping better self-care and
boundaries as I continue to leadand grow our marketing agency.
Looking forward to more podcastsand email newsletters to come.
Just thank you so much, Kathy,for taking the time to leave a
review, and if you're listeningto this.

(01:46):
If you've enjoyed any of myepisodes, one, share it with a
Friend.
That's how people find mypodcast.
And two, just take a moment toleave a review wherever you are
listening.
I love to just put my littlethoughts inside of chat GPT to
help it write a review for meand kind of structure things for
me and then do a quick copy andpaste.
So that's a quick workaround.
If the idea of writing somethingfeels a little bit too much, but

(02:08):
if you would take a moment toleave a review, it means the
world to me.
So let's get into today'sepisode.
'cause I cannot wait, cannotwait for you to hear what this
guest and I got to talk about.
Okay?
It is juicy, it's delicious.
And if you are somebody wholikes to, unpack your trauma,
okay?
You've been working on yourflight, fight, freeze and fawn
responses, and you also weretrying not to allow your

(02:31):
reactions to influence yourfunnels and your launches.
You are going to love thisepisode, so let's get into it.
Morgan, I am beyond.
Thrilled, excited to have youhere.
I know folks just listened tothe intro, which it's, it's so
easy for me to gas you upbecause I'm like, you are that
girl.
But can you give us just alittle bit of background on like

(02:53):
how you became a therapist, whyyou're kind of in this space,
and like the nuance and thespecificity of like what it is
that you do with clients?
Because I, I think that you area different type of therapist.
You're not just like the run ofthe mill.
You know, out here.
So can you give us just a littlebit of background on that too?
Yeah, for sure.
So I specialize in treating theadult children of emotionally

(03:13):
mature parents, both at the, asa therapist and obviously I work
with, the adult children ofemotionally mature parents as a
coach as well.
So a ton of work in childhoodtrauma.
And I specifically work withthis subset of people because
there's this weird thing thathappens when you have an
emotionally mature parent whereyou don't always know if what
you went through was trauma.
Because it doesn't always fitthis like really flagrant and

(03:37):
dramatic, stereotypical kind ofpresentation of quote unquote
trauma.
Right?
Sometimes there wasn't actualbruises.
Sometimes it wasn't.
It's just not a stereotypical,so the stuff that happens in the
home growing up, it's a just alittle more nuanced, it's a
little more.
Emotionally abusive andemotionally, uh, traumatic.

(03:59):
So what ends up happening is yougrow up thinking it's just a
problem with you, that you'renot good enough, that you should
have tried harder, that you,there's a problem with you, that
you're defective.
And so time and time again, Iwas meeting with people where I
was really clearly pointing outlike, Hey, these things that
happen to in your childhood,like they're not okay, and
actually there are a reason whyyou're showing up this way in
your adulthood.

(04:19):
And people would really fight meon that.
Because it doesn't make sense tothem for a number of reasons,
but one of it being, but on theoutside, my parent was fine.
Like they came to the PTAmeetings and to everybody else,
they were like so smart andintelligent and nice and kind.
But then at home, all of thesethings were going on.
So it was really important forme.
I.
As a therapist to bring thatforward and to be able to say

(04:40):
like, no, no, all of this otherstuff that may not look like
broken bones or may not looklike peer abandonment, like
that's trauma too.
I think the other piece, likethe reason I care so much about
this topic is because it reallyforces you when you have an
emotionally mature parent.
To abandon yourself.
There's a whole kind of survivalself survivor self that you have

(05:02):
to develop to be okay in yourchildhood home.
And if no one pauses you alongthe way, like as you grow up to
say, Hey, like do you even wannabe this person anymore?
Then you just end up being thisperson for the rest of your
life, and that's exhausting.
So those are the two big reasonswhy I even do this work.
Man, can we pause?
I'm like, I wanna make sure thatwe're even level setting this,

(05:23):
because when I got introduced toyour work, and it's like, how do
you, my first thought was, howdo I know my parent was
immature?
I'm like, Deisha.
If you're asking that question,you probably already know the
answer.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
Um, but what are some signals orsigns when it isn't like the,
the stereotypical forms ofmm-hmm.
Abuse or like the, the bigger ttrauma experiences like.
How do you help your clientseven, or just what are the

(05:46):
signals or the signs of like,Hey, this is probably if, if
you've found it fit this mold,or these are the patterns that
we typically notice.
Mm-hmm.
Or this is how you're showing upas an adult when you just say
like, you typically abandonyourself.
Mm-hmm.
And that becomes the mode ofkind of how you're surviving
through the world.
Like what are those initialsignals that even that might be
helpful for somebody to name orput language to?

(06:06):
Yeah.
I think the specific childhoodexperiences to keep in mind are
the ones where.
I mean, I define, and I helppeople define like emotional
immaturity as, as someone whocan't actually deal with
reality.
Like a lot of work is going into deny reality that maybe your
parent, uh, was struggling withsomething.
Sorry, I just need to adjust myvolume here.
Um, maybe your parent wasstruggling with something and

(06:28):
instead of actually facing thatreality, instead of actually
sitting in like.
The toughness of that reality.
They took it out on you.
They took it out on a partner.
Um, there's a lot of kind ofrecruiting their children to
really manage their owndistress, right?
So there's that, and thenthere's also this other element
where they can be emotionallymature.
Parents can be incrediblyrejecting.

(06:49):
So time and time again you aretrying to demonstrate to them.
Like, am I good enough?
Do you see me?
Can you, um, acknowledge me?
Can you be proud of me?
And emotionally mature parentswill reject those bids
constantly over and over, whichthen forces us to really develop
the survivor self, where you'regonna be performing, you're
gonna be really trying toachieve.
You're going to be, um, workingreally hard in your business or

(07:13):
working really hard in yourcareer to be someone who's super
competent, who has it alltogether, only to still be
rejected by your emotionallymature parent.
Right?
So it's this hamster wheel wecan get on of continuously
trying to be chosen.
And trying to be hyper competentand hyper capable to prove to
ourselves and to prove toideally our parent that we are

(07:35):
good enough.
But since emotionally mature,parents often don't come around
to actually provide thatunconditional positive regard.
That thing we all need.
Where a parent says, no, I seeyou when I love you, regardless
of who you are, then we juststay on that hamster wheel
constantly trying to perform andachieve things.
Even when our body is likescreaming, Hey, can you stop?
Like, I can't keep living likethis.
We just keep going.

(07:55):
Man, I feel like I'm chuckling alittle bit'cause I think about a
lot of my peers or businessowners that I know, clients that
I have, I'm like the most, someof the most successful people I
know.
I feel like you just read uslike a book, like almost like a
recipe for when to harness in acertain way.
It ends up leading to, being thefuel source of really successful

(08:17):
individuals.
I'm not sure if you noticesomething similar, but what does
it look like when this type oftrauma is showing up, especially
in women, but especially infemale business owners mm-hmm.
When they outwardly appear fineand polished and put together
and whatever, but really it's a,maybe it's kind of like their
survival version of them that isreally what's functioning.

(08:38):
Like, how does that dynamic playout or show up?
It shows up well in a coupledifferent ways.
One being extreme burnout, but afunctioning burnout.
So you don't actually thinkyou're burnt out because you can
still check all the boxes, butinside your body's like, Hey,
this is awful.
We hate this.
And you're like, what do youmean?
We just keep going.
This is like how we live ourlife.
So there's this kind ofphysiological burnout that will
happen, but then there's also, Isee often a ton of resentment,

(09:02):
whether it's resentment towardsyour partner, resentment
towards, your employees or yourcontractors resentment towards
your va that.
They couldn't deliver on thiscertain thing because you know
exactly how to do it and you'resuper capable.
But the moment somebody elsemakes a mistake, it's like so
threatening to your own systemthat you become really angry or
resentful.
Is that touching that?
I think we need a pause rightthere.

(09:23):
I feel like especially earlierdays in business mm-hmm.
I used to get so activated.
When I would have a team memberor a va and it's like, I
delegate this thing.
I'm like, y'all, this is notrocket science.
Sis, I need you to just set upthe Zapier automation.
Why there so many errors?
How is this not workingcorrectly?
And then I'm like, why is myresponse so big?

(09:44):
To something that really, itdoesn't warrant that level of
reaction.
And before I just used to thinklike.
I can't hire good people, likeclearly what I'm doing.
It's just one, it's easier forme to do it myself or two, like
there's just, there are notbecause of how high functioning
and high capability I am.
I'm just like the, I'm gonnajust say this, this, y'all feel

(10:06):
terrible admitting this onrecord, but I'm like, people are
just mediocre af..
I can't find somebody that canfunction at the caliber that I
function at.
And there used to be a huge,like, friction and dissonance I
would have with hiring over andover and over again.
I'm like, I feel like I was justrunning through VAs, like I had
a graveyard of people I had letgo and fired because it, one

(10:27):
mistake was enough.
I couldn't handle it in my ownbody.
Now looking back, it wasn't likethis person was just learning a
new skillset, but I didn't givethem space to learn.
Or I would hire people thatmirrored the behavior and
characteristic parent patternsof my parents.
And it's like you were justhiring people who are not
capable, who don't have thecapacity, and those are the

(10:48):
people you keep bringing onboard.
Like those are my patterns.
So those are the two patterns.
I was gonna say, those are thetwo patterns that I work the
most with.
You're describing two things.
The first being projection andthe second being transference.
Like tho, that's really thebread and butter of my work.
They, those two again, becauseI'm like, Ooh girl.
Especially when I'm doingbusiness sketching.
So this is where we do a ton ofprojection work, a work on

(11:09):
projection and a ton oftransference work.
So projection being the firstthing you talked about?
Yeah.
That part where you're saying,you know, I would hire a va.
And it's like, what?
Like everyone's just somediocre, like why can't they
get this done?
And I wanna be clear, likehiring is a delicate process and
yeah, there's some likerealities and logistics to that.
But this reaction you aredescribing is because you are
seeing in your VA a part ofyourself that you have

(11:32):
disavowed.
The part that can, the part, youknow, who can't get it wrong,
the part that has to be supercapable, super competent,
because that's how you survived,right?
Yeah.
You, you needed that.
You really needed to be hypercapable.
So the moment your VA gets itwrong and it's not at the level
that you are, it's not justlike, oh, that was shitty.
I can swear, right?
That's okay.

(11:52):
Oh girl, it's an open podcasthere.
Say whatever you need to say,right?
So it's not just like, oh, thatsucks, or that was shitty.
It's, it's so threatening toyour system because you are
seeing in this person, a part ofyourself that you have
completely disavowed andcompletely rejected because of
your own survival.
So now you are assigning to themattributes that you find so

(12:13):
painful within yourself that youare simply not allowing to be
here.
And so they're threatening yourwhole sense of safety, your
whole survival system comes intoplay when you see this kind of
mediocre or not as competentversion of yourself or of your
va.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Um, yeah, a hundred percent.
Like I just remember that usedto be a pattern I would play out
and then I started going totherapy again and it's like, oh,

(12:37):
you know, you start getting someself-awareness here around it,
but it didn't, like I alwaystell people like I feel like
business was my biggest form oftherapy.
Like it was the gateway for meto.
Find a safe space to like dothis work, um, of like
navigating these dynamicsbecause I'm like, drew, this is
how you're treating a totalstranger.
Like imagine how you're like.
Why you're having a difficulttime establishing close

(12:59):
girlfriends in your personallife.
I'm like, ah, I'll worry aboutthe friendship thing a little
bit later.
Lemme like, try to fix it inthis confine like environment
where there's a, it's a paidtransactional relationship.
Mm-hmm.
Like that was my playground ofpractice back then, but it makes
total sense.
Mm-hmm.
And then a couple years in,probably like seven or eight
hires in my therapist is the onethat brought it to my attention.

(13:21):
And she's just like, you are.
Hiring people that mirror thecharacteristic traits of your
parents.
Oh.
And I was like, girl, you arenot in my business.
But she read me for a filth.
But it was, I didn't realize,like I, I thought that I was
really good atcompartmentalizing, which I was
to some degree, but I'm like,there's certain stuff that
doesn't get compartmentalized,it just shows up in a different

(13:43):
space.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, I keep out tryingto outrun.
This work that I'm avoiding andit's just now showing up in my
business and I'm like, what am Igonna do with it?
So yes, this makes total sense.
Yeah.
And that latter part you'redescribing, that's transference.
So this idea that we are reallyprojecting and bringing with us
past relationship templates.

(14:03):
Into new relationshipssubconsciously.
Right.
That I am, and we, we all dothis to a certain extent.
It's not just, it's not justpeople with trauma to an extent.
We're all subconsciously seekingout what we know, but when it
comes to relational trauma,we're trying to master the
event.
Right.
It's why we'll choose a partner.
Who may really resemble aneglectful parent, because if I
can get this partner to love me,if I can get this partner to do

(14:26):
things differently, then I havemastered the event, then I have
changed the outcome.
Repetition, compulsion isanother word that we'll use to
describe this, but we cancompulsively find the same type
of person over and over again toprove a different outcome, to
try and prove a differentoutcome.
Mm-hmm.
So the same thing with hiringpeople, right?
Especially if we see howthere's.
A need to kind of depend on a VAor a contractor, right?

(14:48):
So we might hire someone wholooks like the person who really
could never be there for usbecause it's familiar and
comfortable, and because we'resubconsciously driven to see
those traits and think maybe Ican change them, or maybe this
time it'll be different if I canget.
I dunno, Sammy, your va,whoever, to, to show up for me.
Then it's gonna undo some of thehurt from my own parent never
showing up for me.

(15:09):
In ways, like people will oftentalk about, you know, your
attachment style to your magicpartners and that's really
important.
But if we're not also expandingthat to your attachment, that
same attachment style to yourmoney or to your business, we
have all of these blind spotsthen, right?
Like if your attachment styleisn't just how you attach to a
romantic partner.
It's how you relate to allrelational objects in your

(15:30):
world, and that includes yourbusiness and that includes
money.
Man, I fucking, it includesmoney more, just as much as
romantically.
Like that is so good.
I know somebody listening inright now, like I don't know who
this Morgan girl is, but girl,we're what?
10 minutes, 15 minutes in.
Oh my gosh.
But like, so one thing else I, Ihear you talk a lot about is the

(15:50):
fight, light, freeze, or fawnresponses and like one, can you
just quickly break down whatthat means?
Just so that we're all kind ofusing similar language, but I'm
really curious to know like.
The we're like discussing howthese patterns show up in
business and how we show up asleaders, but like how does now
this fight, flight, freeze, andfawn responses, like how does

(16:11):
that impact this larger dynamicof people, undercharging,
overdelivering, people pleasing,like scope creep, this
perfectionism, like how thisstuff plays out and how we like
support our clients and how werun our businesses too.
Yeah, so the four F's, it'seasier to kind of call'em that
'cause I'll do that too.
It's a lot of F's.
Um, but those are, those arekind of your textbook trauma

(16:33):
responses that happens when weexperience a trigger or a really
overwhelming threat and the bodydecides this is really scary and
really lethal.
I need to override myintellectual conscious mind and
actually just head straight intoa trauma response.
It's often not a choice.
To go into a trauma response,it's just a full body reaction.
Right.
Okay.
So fighting often, especiallywhen I'm working with business

(16:55):
owners, fighting often lookslike, um, it's interesting, you
know, because the fight responsecan actually be really helpful
in a lot of ways.
Sometimes it looks like grit andresilience.
Other times it looks likeberating a VA or berating.
Um.
An employee or not giving up ona certain something that it's
time to give up and move on tothe next thing.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
You're battling trying so hardto make something work.

(17:16):
You refuse to quote unquote backdown or you, you refuse to
change.
Even though it might be thesmarter, more strategic option
to pivot, it's like, I need tomake this one thing work by any
means necessary.
That's usually how the fightresponse shows up in business.
The Fawn response shows up by aton of people pleasing, what
people would call peoplepleasing.
It shows up by really abandoningyourself and trying to make sure

(17:39):
that the perception of you ispositive, right?
You might even lie.
You might even.
Um, wear something you wouldn'teven normally wear, spend money
on something you wouldn'tnormally spend money on because
the perception of you and howyou come across is extremely
important.
It's a ton of perceptionmanagement, impression
management.
The freeze response isinteresting because when you

(18:00):
spend a ton of time in fight andfawn, what ends up happening is
it's too overwhelming to yourbody that it will overshoot to
try to get you to come back downinto safety.
But then it, you end up in afreeze response because it shot
you, you overshot basically.
And that can look like doomscrolling.
That can look like sitting onthe couch, having no idea like
what your next move is, butfeeling really kind of rigid and

(18:21):
stuck inside your own body.
Right?
It's this kind of total, um,numbness inside.
You're still upright, you'restill kind of, um, mobile, maybe
even a little stiff when you'resitting in posture or, or when
you're trying to even relax.
You can't really release, butyou can't do anything
productive.
You feel really frozen.

(18:42):
Mm.
And then there's the flightresponse.
And this is where you mightfocus on those tasks or do those
things that are actually noteven um, needed right now.
You might have that little sideproject you're working on, on
the side of your desk, or you'llhave those nice distractions and
get lost in things that are sonot the priorities that you need
to be working on, but it feels.
Much more, um, much more safe tobe doing these other things and

(19:06):
have to face the scary thinghead on, they show up.
I wanna also be really clearthat most of us will move
through these responses, right?
We're not always, you know,demonstrating a single response
and only a single response, butwe tend to spend a lot of time
there if we are running ourbusiness from a place of
survival.
Yeah.
I mean, I think over the yearswitnessing clients and like you

(19:28):
bringing this language in isit's been interesting to notice
what clients will internalize asa threat in business.
Mm-hmm.
And I notice this happen a lotduring like launch cycles or
sales campaigns or sales events,or just even like dealing with
rejection of somebody like youraise your price and then
somebody's like, mm, no, Ican't.

(19:48):
Afford it, like the how personalit it can feel.
Or if they set a goal and theydon't hit it like.
It seems like it's like thisthreatening event.
Mm-hmm.
When it's, yes, you may notlike, things may not have gone
the way that you expected or theway that you had hoped, or the
way that you had planned, butit's like it's having a visceral
body reaction in clients andit's something I've just like

(20:09):
noticed over the years.
Especially even now workingprivately one-on-one, it's like
I'm able, you know, when you'rein that close proximity, it's
like, yes, there are strategicaspects that are going on, but
there's also very humanemotional reactions that are
taking place.
And it's like, yes, our logicalbrain might know, but I'm like,
honey, your, your body's notsafe.
Mm-hmm.
And I started doing somatictherapy about, like, during my

(20:31):
sabbatical over this past year,and it's like, I'm, now, I, I
noticed how disconnected I usedto be like, and the way that I
used to run my business and.
Now I'm like, oh, my body wastreating that launch event as a
threatening situation.
Mm-hmm.
Where it was like this, I gottamake it.
I am like butt clench.

(20:51):
I keep using that as the analogy'cause that's like what I was
like, shoulders were reallytight.
My jaw would like, I would justbe physically tight in my body.
And it is like, why are weputting all this pressure on
this launch?
Like, just like, I, I don't evenknow what the exact question I'm
trying to ask you is.
Mm-hmm.
But it's just something that I'mjust, it's coming up and I think
more, like, especially myclients and people who listen to
this podcast, many of them aredoing self work.

(21:13):
They're like navigating thesethings, but it still is showing
up.
I'm like, I don't know.
What kind, how do you helpclients navigate that or reduce
this pressure or be able to havethe awareness to distinguish
between these like, yes, thislaunch is important.
But like you're also safe.
Like all this pressure doesn'thave to be applied onto these
in, in the ways in which we'reprojecting them onto our

(21:35):
business or our business nowbecomes this thing that has to
save us.
Yeah, so I mean that's a coupledifferent things.
The first, when you aredescribing, you know, someone
having a launch or someone notdoing well on, on some sort of
event or sale, right?
And there's this full panic,it's usually because the meaning
we're assigning to that launch,especially if you were someone
who grew up in a home withparents who were cold or

(21:56):
rejecting or chaotic, wherethere actually wasn't any kind
of fundamental safety baked intothe experience of being in your
own home and you develop thatsurvivor self.
All of a sudden, your launch isme.
And am I good enough?
Can I do this?
Am I actually as capable as Ithink I am?
Is somebody going to love me?
Am I financially protectedbecause I have nothing, no

(22:18):
umbrella, no safety netunderneath me to take care of
me.
It's not just one launch in thefall and you're gonna launch
again in six months.
It's, am I actually okay?
Am I actually safe?
Right?
And because.
All of our eggs get put into thebasket of, is my business
successful?
Am I gonna hit that certainnumber, or whatever kind of
metric we're using.

(22:38):
The moment we start to driftaway from that, or the moment
that isn't achieved, it'sincredibly terrifying.
Incredibly terrifying.
It's not just a thought, right?
It's like a full body experienceof I am not good enough.
I am not safe.
This plan isn't going to work.
I was kidding myself.
Like, these are all the things Ihear of like, who do I think I
am that I thought I couldpossibly do this?
What does it all look like now?

(22:59):
And so many of thoseconversations are really about
bringing people back to the hereand now, to the very present of
like May 7th, 2025.
What do you know to be trueabout right now?
And what are the ways you areprojecting the very real, uh,
terror that existed in your homeonto this one single launch?
Yeah.
Does that make sense?

(23:20):
It does.
I mean, I could see some people,like girls are always that deep
and I'm like, maybe it is, maybeit's not.
But like what are some of thosepractical things that really
help an individual getre-grounded back into the moment
if they do notice themselvesgetting activated or, I also
have some clients and I, I feellike I, I can be this way.
This is also why I went tosomatic therapies.
Like I can over intellectualizemm-hmm.

(23:41):
And analyze, and I can get, Ican stay so heady that I'm like.
No, I just need you to put yourfeet on the ground and just
like, be here for right now.
Like, stop internalizing it.
Slow down.
Like what are some practicalthings that can be helpful of,
uh, either to the person who,like girls, is it always that
deep and I'm like, it could be,but it could maybe not be.
And just what are some practicalways to help get us recentered

(24:01):
into the here and now?
So the first thing I often hear,like girls are always that deep,
and that's an interesting, um,interesting part, right, that
comes online to say, relax.
It's not that big of a deal.
It's, you know, it's not reallyall about my childhood.
And my first question alwaysback to that person is, what are
the ways that.
Is that part kind of protectingyou from having to feel

(24:22):
something more here?
Ooh.
Because it's not for nothingthat it's all of a sudden it's
coming online to say it's notthat deep.
Like it's not that deep as sucha minimization.
Right?
Yeah.
I'm not gonna feel, which I'malso probably reflective of what
your experience was like growingup a hundred percent.
You, you are replaying, you arerecreating those same dynamics,
right?
Because it's so familiar,especially if you did, if you

(24:43):
were a child who had emotionalreactions and your parents
didn't know how to handle them,and so they minimized and
invalidated them because theydidn't want to, they didn't know
how to handle them, right?
So they would say things like,it's not that big of a deal.
You're being dramatic.
Yeah, you're being too much.
Right.
If you hear yourself sayingthose same things.
It's probably a good indicatorthat your own college shit is
now at the table, right?

(25:04):
Like there's something here foryou, right?
Girl.
It is that deep.
Okay?
It is that deep, especially ifyou're resonating with other
parts of this conversation,right?
If it's, if you are someone whodoesn't have trauma and the rest
of this conversation has felt,um, not.
Applicable to you then.
Okay.
Maybe it's not that deep.
Maybe.
Maybe it's something else.
But if you're resonating withany other part of this
conversation and you did have achildhood that we are talking

(25:24):
about, that part of you thatsays, oh, it's not that deep.
That part kind of sounds likeit's coming online to protect
you from having to feelsomething from it.
It seems like it wants toprotect you and just wants you
to keep going in the same way.
It doesn't want you to threatenthe survival system that you
have established to this pointof just pushing through and
intellectualizing.
Right.
So like maybe we just get alittle curious about that part

(25:46):
and what its motives are becauselike we are the sum of hundreds
of parts, right?
It's not just like that one partexists.
So let's learn about thatpart's, intentions and motives.
I just wanna put that out there.
If anybody is hearing that voicein their mind, that part has an
agenda just to be clear.
And that's okay.
All parts have agendas, butthat, that part is an agenda.
Um, the second part of yourquestion that I think is really

(26:07):
important, and you said thisearlier when you, when, when you
were speaking.
You had said, um, something tothe effect of how do we just get
people to, to see and, and to,to know that they're safe.
Safety and that idea of beingsafe is a felt sense.
I could tell you until the cowscome home that you are safe and
you will not believe me.
If you do not feel it, you willnot believe me.

(26:28):
If you are in your brain tryingto, um, intellectualize what to
do with this next launch, as I'msaying, you are safe, it needs
to be a felt sense, right?
So we actually have to slow downand that's one of the biggest
things that I'm, I am teachingpeople to constantly do is like
slow down a regulated.
Calm safe.
CEO slows down, right?

(26:50):
Mm-hmm.
They can take in theirsurroundings.
So if you are someone who'sconstantly acting from urgency,
it's usually a good sign thatyour, your nervous system is
being hijacked by fear.
Right.
And we wanna actually pause tofeel safety.
And safety can look like,especially by the way, this only
applies if someone is actuallysafe.
If you're in abusiverelationship, if you are living
in a war zone, if you are livingin a, in a context that is

(27:10):
actually unsafe, don't do any ofthis.
Don't listen to what I'm sayingbecause you need fight or flight
to keep you safe.
That's the whole point of thosesystems, right?
Yeah.
But if you are safe, I'm like, Iwanna pause for a second.
'cause I think that is, when Iheard you name that for the
first time and like really.
Like if you are actually not ina safe environment, doing all
this stuff is harmful for youright now.

(27:32):
Mm-hmm.
And when I heard you say that,I'm just like, I don't.
I don't know.
That to me was like verypermission giving to some
degree.
'cause I mean, I can imaginepeople who are living in
situations right now that areactively, currently not safe.
Like their physical environmentsare not safe, but they're trying
to counteract and it's like youcan't override that situation.
Mm-hmm.
So I just, I really want like, Ireally appreciate you naming

(27:54):
that because I do think it isimportant.
'cause there is like people whoare listening who may be in.
Unsafe physical environmentsright now.
And it's like, what's wrong?
And I mean, there is, I mean,not knowing how to navigate the
dynamic, but it's like that isfirst and foremost, you need to
protect yourself.
In those cases, we need to bethanking your body for keeping
you in fight or flight, right?
Like when you're in fight orflight, like your eyes zero in

(28:16):
on the threat, you experienceauditory exclusion, which means
you can only hear things thatare really related to the
threat.
Your body starts to createcortisol, adrenal, like there's
a full body experience.
Your senses come into lock.
You can feel things with more.
Things feel more tactile to you.
Right?
You are getting ready to keepyourself safe.
That is necessary if you are inthreat.

(28:36):
Yeah.
Right?
So we need to start todifferentiate.
Am I actually in threat?
Am I in an abusive relationship?
Is my house has the potential ofbeing taken away from me?
Am I living in an unsafe warzone?
Right?
All of these real things.
If the answer to those thingsare no, then we can orient back
to the here and now.
Then we can realize, pause andsay to ourselves, this is my
age.

(28:56):
This is the date I'm gonna takein everything that is the color
red in my office.
And I'm gonna pause on each oneand just notice it.
I'm coming back to May 7th.
I'm coming back to being 45, 55,65 because here in this specific
moment, I am safe.
Yeah, and we're not talkingabout tomorrow.
We're not talking about thefuture.
We're actually just want tofeel, we want to feel safety

(29:18):
right here and now.
Yeah.
And even like, uh, I keep goingback to somatic therapy'cause it
was just so, it's been sodifferent than traditional talk
therapy.
And I just remember coming intosessions and she'd like, Uhhuh,
can you take a breath for aminute?
I was like, girl, why you askingme to breathe?
Let you know what just happened?
And she's like, Uhhuh.
Like what, where do you feelthis, like what color are you

(29:39):
noticing or what, what, where doyou feel this in your body?
Or like, what is the weathercondition right now to like,
describe what you're feeling.
Or One question she asked me waslike, if you had to describe how
this felt to an alien, whatwould you say?
And I'm like, girl, what do youmean?
How would I describe this to analien who doesn't have any
context but it, but it forced meto slow down.
Like it was like a patterninterrupt almost.

(30:00):
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I just think like.
For the person.
And I think prior to this, likeI used to be terrified of
slowing down, so I would justspeed up.
Even though my body, like Ithink of right before I left for
my sabbatical, my, my body wasscreaming, please slow down.
And I was like, absolutely notgirl.
We running like, but I, it'slike you notice it, but I was

(30:23):
afraid of it.
I think I was afraid of beingstill, I was afraid of sitting
with myself.
I was afraid of like exhaling.
Mm-hmm.
Like.
And it's, it's, um, I love whatyou're saying though.
Like you, somebody can't justkeep telling you that you're
safe, my financial advisor,you're safe.
You're, I'm like bru.
When I hear about, when you talkabout safety net, and I know

(30:44):
there's a lot of people in myaudience, they are like low key
financial hoarders.
Like they are like squirrels.
They stockpile.
Cash and all these differentaccounts, and like they have
money saved up in a lot ofplaces because no matter how
much is there, they have sixfigures sitting in a bank
account.
It's like, oh no, it's justsitting in that savings account
earning 1%.
I cannot move it.
And when you said that, and it'sjust like, but get how?

(31:08):
How can you, I mean, I get theslowing down, but is there
anything else or resources thatpeople make?
Maybe they do need to go totherapy or maybe they need to
switch up their modality oftherapy that will help them.
If they are physically in a safeenvironment, they are actually
safe, but they're having thisdissonance with being able to
actually believe it.
Mm-hmm.

(31:29):
Where do we, yeah, the firstthing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a good question.
And I think, okay, so the firstthing, especially if you are
someone who might be more of anintellectually, like getting
information and actual educationon what you're doing and
understanding your patterns isactually incredibly helpful.
Like when you're talking about,for example, the person who
hoards all their money, I see, Isee that presentation, but I
also, I add, that's IE still tosome degree me, I over I overs,

(31:52):
right?
Like I over save, but I doreally resonate with like, I
need language.
Like, help me understand what islike name, what is going on.
'cause that makes me feelempowered to some degree versus
like, yeah, like the more Iknew, it made it more tactile
for me.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Because again, like when we'redriven by the subconscious fear,

(32:13):
we don't have choice.
We're just responding.
And sometimes our own behaviorsdon't even make sense.
Or sometimes we rationalize themin a way that we think makes
sense, but is actually so rootedin trauma and so rooted in fear,
because I truly, I mean, I seethe two presentations.
I see the person who hoards, andthen I see the person who spends
everything because it is wayeasier to live like you don't
have it, than to trust and hopethat you're actually gonna be

(32:36):
okay.
Right.
It's like I did come up withclients.
It's like almost like a fear ofsuccess.
Yes.
It's like they're, mm-hmm.
They won't prevent themselvesfrom making more money'cause
they don't trust themselves tohold them more.
100%.
They're tied into that isusually this feeling of like
real scarcity from childhoodwhere they didn't get to have a
lot of fun experiences or anykind of like safety experiences
where there's consistently foodin the house, right?

(32:58):
So they're just constantlyoverspending to remind
themselves of like the powerthat they hold and that things
are possible.
Or it is like my bank accountlooking at it, it has this
number.
I know that's not always gonnabe there.
Let me get to that zero quickerso I don't have to sit in this
weird anticipatory phase.
Like these are all the thingsthat the brain is doing to try
and prevent you from having tofeel more harm.

(33:19):
I.
More pain.
Right?
So this is actually where, interms of like a real resource,
which I'm constantly saying topeople, we all need mirrors.
We need a mirror in some way.
And this is where coaching andtherapy is.
There is no better mirror.
You cannot read the label frominside the bottle.
Right?
Even as a coach and a therapistmyself, I obviously have.
All of those.
I have a therapist, I have acoach, right.

(33:40):
All of those things, because I,I can't read my own blind spots.
I need somebody to say like, HeyMorgan, the way you are talking
about this thing is also how youtalked about when your partner
did X, Y, Z.
And then I can realize, right, Iam totally projecting, or I'm
totally recreating a specificdynamic to try and master an
event.
Yeah, there's, there, we needmirrors.

(34:00):
We need someone to say this,this is too similar.
There's something happeninghere.
That is so good.
I mean, Monique, uh, inMonique's interview, she
mentioned something similarabout like, uh, talking about
self-concept and how we need toevolve our sense of self-concept
and how our relationship withour identity needs to evolve
over time.
And it's just like you have todo it in community.
Like, I think too, like for somany individuals who are

(34:23):
listening to this and very muchan identity I used to hold was
like, I'm Miss Independent.
I am DEP.
You know what I mean?
Like, I don't need anybody else.
And it's like, no, like the,the.
The mirroring is, is the work,like, like you said, like ha
having somebody else help yourecognize these patterns and,
and bring that to yourawareness.
Um, I just, this is so good.

(34:46):
I'm like, I just wanna pausehere for a second for anybody
else, because I, even as I'mgoing through this, I'm like, I
just wanna take a minute andjust bask in this conversation
mm-hmm.
Conversation, um, and all therealizations that you are
bringing to this table and thedynamics that are coming up
right now.
Um.
Just holding space for anybodythat's listening to this, and I
just feel like, Morgan, youtalking fast and you dropping

(35:07):
the gyms even quicker.
Should I slow down?
My bad.
No.
I'm like, I just, I just, I justknow this is resonating.
Like I mm-hmm.
I know this is exactly, like,this is something I wish I had
language on multiple years ago.
I wish I would've listened to apodcast interview like this
where somebody's just givinglanguage and naming some of
these things that you'reexperiencing, but you don't, you
don't have words for, you don'teven know what you're supposed

(35:28):
to do with it.
And, and you don't realize thepattern of how it's showing up
and how you're operating yourbusiness.
Um, so I think that's the hardpart, like.
Business is, is ghetto.
Like it's ghetto out here.
And there's so many things thatwe do in our businesses and as
leaders and like striving formore or or remaining content

(35:48):
with what we have oroverspending for whatever
reason, or not spending,'causewe're afraid, like so much of
this stuff is our own internal,like our own internal stuff.
Like it's not, business is quitesimple, but when you add in a
human component, like it makesit a little complicated.
Mm-hmm.
I'm often telling people,'causeI work with a lot of people who
are either entrepreneurs or, um,executives and high leadership,

(36:11):
right.
Or sometimes working just likereally, um, jobs that like do
demand a lot of them nervoussystem wise, like law
enforcement or whatever it mightbe.
And I am constantly tellingthose who run businesses like
nothing breaks you open morethan running a business.
I'm saying this as a traumatherapist who has worked, you
know, across the board withmany, many people, public

(36:31):
figures, whoever.
Nothing breaks you open likerunning a, why do you think that
is?
Because especially if you, well,especially if you're a woman and
a woman of color, but if youhave a public facing type of
business, right where you haveyour face is there in any way.
You, you have to be okay withthe perception of you being out
there in a way where you do nothave control.

(36:52):
You have to be okay with puttingall of your effort into a launch
and it failing.
You have to be okay with havingseasons of not making money,
right?
If you come from financialscarcity or any kind of
scarcity, like that'sterrifying.
But there is, there is nothingelse that's ever gonna force you
to do that, right?
If you're a salaried employee,um, I mean, I was for many years
of my life.
And, um, there is something alittle, um, nice about never

(37:17):
having a question like, is thispaycheck coming or not?
No.
I know every other Friday thatmy, my paycheck's gonna be there
and I know that I get up ateight and I go to work at nine
and I come home at five.
Right.
That there is such a.
A safety to that, that we takefor granted that we don't fully
realize.
It really allows you todisconnect from so many things
when all of that is taken careof by some, like, figure in the

(37:39):
sky, right?
Some HR department somewhere ismaking sure you get your
paycheck, like once that's alltaken care of.
There's a, there's a way you getto kind of check out from that.
But being a business owner.
You wear every single hat andyou have to be out there.
Like it just, it breaks you,open it questions who you are.
Are you safe?
Can you actually do these thingsthat you're setting yourself out
to do?
And that gets at the core woundwhen you are a childhood trauma

(38:02):
survivor of like, am I goodenough?
Am I lovable?
Am I safe in this world?
Or is someone going to harm me?
Like it pulls on all the deepeststrings.
Yeah, well what's, what is thetruth that you've come to
realize?
Because we still choose to signup for this.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm like, I think that thereis something like brave and
courageous about like, startinga business in general.
'cause there is a level ofuncertainty or unpredictability

(38:25):
like you, like, like you saidthere, there is a different
version of risk that exists whenstarting a business.
There's still risk in having anine to five, but like it's a
different version of risk.
But I'm like, what do you say tothe person?
Like, you're still choosing itand you are coming up against
these opportunities to becurious with.
These patterns that you might benoticing or these reaction or
responses that you might behaving, like.

(38:46):
I, I don't think that that'salso by happenstance, like
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
No, no.
I don't think it's byhappenstance.
And the part of you that'schoosing it is actually the part
I want to want you to get morein touch with.
Mm-hmm.
The part that said, I need moreand I'm hungry for something
more.
There's a, there's a part of youthat, that is desiring that
because you have a strongseeking circuit, that there is

(39:06):
something that is Oh, yeah.
What does that mean?
A strong seeking circuit?
A strong seeking circuit.
It means there's just a thirstthere.
There's a hunger there forsomething beyond the mundane,
something beyond the, the kindof everyday reality of being
salaried of, of not working atall.
There's, people will describeit, the people that I work with
describe it as just like thisswitch inside them that when

(39:28):
it's on, it's like.
It's not, well, sometimes it isinsatiable, but it's just this
drive for something, uh, to sinktheir teeth into.
And I think that can be a reallybeautiful and beautifully
harnessed attribute.
So long as we are staying intouch with that authentic state
rather than, okay, I'm gonnalisten to my seeking circuit,

(39:49):
I'm gonna put myself out there,and then the moment something
goes wrong, or the moment I getscared, my trauma comes into
derail me from this authenticthing that I was actually really
driven to do.
Right.
Yeah.
These are the people who I willoften say you like to take big
bites out of life.
You like to take big, big bitesand that's okay.

(40:10):
Just sometimes we take a bigbite and then we struggle to
chew.
We struggle to get it all down,but taking a big bite is great.
It tastes good.
You get filled up.
There's nothing wrong withtaking big bites, but we need to
be honest about it.
What it, what it means to besomeone who takes a big bite and
how can we.
Properly get through that versushaving the trauma stuff come in

(40:31):
and derail you entirely untilyou know you're doing it wrong.
What's wrong with you?
Nobody's actually gonna wantthis, and nobody's actually
gonna want you.
We gotta stick with that part ofyou that's authentically driven
for more.
Hmm.
Something that you said tooabout like, people who grew up
without trauma.
Hmm.
I'm like that.
I mean, I know I'm like circlingway back and I'm totally asking

(40:52):
this for my own sense of self.
Yeah.
Here.
Um, so I think too, moving toCalifornia, I, I've been meeting
so many people that just have avery different way of life than
like people I would meet onevery day in Michigan.
I'm like.
There's just, it's less of athreatening environment in
general.
Their version of crime out hereis just very different than what
like typical crime would existin Michigan or in Detroit.

(41:12):
And I'm just like, is it, dopeople grow up without trauma or
have, do all of us experiencesome version or level of trauma
may be different from person toperson, but like are there
people out here who just likegrew up secure and.
Well, yes.
Yeah.
They, they, there are.
There are.

(41:33):
There are.
So there's, there's a couplethings.
There's people who grew up zerotrauma, great securely attached
to their parents, no financialissues.
Uh, life was chill, right?
Like things were just good.
There is absolutely thosepeople.
And then there are people whogrew up with trauma and went
through traumas, but becausethey had secure attachment and
because they had that safety netunder them, they didn't

(41:54):
experience traumatization.
Then there are people who wentthrough trauma and did
experience traumatizationbecause they did not have that
buffer to protect them, toinsulate them from the effects
of the trauma.
Right.
Wow.
So it's why two people can, I'mso glad I, I selfishly you this
question because I'm like, howdoes that happen?

(42:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've been meeting people, likeone of the girlfriends I've just
recently made here inCalifornia.
I'm like, girl, just like, whatwas like, just tell me about
your childhood.
I don't think I've, I don't, Idon't think I've ever met
anybody until meeting her whereI'm like, you seem like you just
grew up in a really healthyenvironment, like mm-hmm.
That just blows my mind that I'mlike, there are people out here

(42:37):
who are, but I love thedistinction of what you said.
It's like.
They may have grown up in asecurely attached environment.
Everything was kind of good.
There were no external threatsversus people who grew up in
threatening invite in traumaticexperiences, but they had a
safety net so they weren'ttraumatized.
Right.
That was like such a gooddistinction.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's why two people can go towar, experience the exact same

(42:58):
thing, being the exact sameteam, go through the exact same
stuff.
They'll come back and one mighthave acute stress, might
struggle, but will successfullykind of integrate back and not
experience a ton oftraumatization.
The other will have full blownPTSD will struggle with trauma
symptoms for the rest of theirlife if they don't get help.
And usually that person grew upin poverty.
I.
Didn't have a strong, secureattachment with their parents,

(43:19):
right?
Doesn't have a place to comehome to where they feel accepted
and loved.
Those kinds of things.
They create real, real buffers.
The sooner that we can reconnectwith someone after experiencing
a trauma, someone that is safeand who we love, the less likely
we are to develop PTSD.
So there's trauma, the event,like we're gonna all go through
a car accident, right?
Or we're all gonna go throughsomething significant and
painful.
But then there's actualtraumatization, which is the

(43:40):
presentation, which is thewounding that takes place, and
the scarring that takes placewithin the body.
What have you noticed from thepandemic?
Because I feel like there's beenlike this delayed effect or
reaction that I'm just.
I've been noticing in the space,noticing with clients, noticing
with peers that's like slightlydifferent than people who were
immediately laid off or losttheir jobs or like there was

(44:02):
this hard halt because of thepandemic versus people who were
having like this delayed rippleeffect of it.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I mean, that might, youknow, I would classify the
pandemic as a traumatic worldexperience.
Like how do, like events likethat or what, how kind of, what
have you noticed in regards tothe pandemic as it relates to.
Clients that you're seeingtoday?
High performance today, businessowners today?

(44:24):
Yeah.
A lot of people, I mean, firstof all, the pandemic was a
collective trauma, and yes,there were certain regions that
were more affected and thus hadhigher rates of traumatization,
higher, more severepresentations of post covid
traumatization.
But for what I'm seeinganecdotally, especially with the
people that I work with, a lotof people lost themselves and
lost.
A part of themselves.

(44:45):
They went, they'll, they'lldescribe going into the pandemic
as being social and connectedand maybe even liking themselves
and moving their bodies andknowing their place in the world
and knowing that they belong.
And then we went through thislike several year period where
all of that was taken away andwe haven't yet recovered.
And those who might have runbusinesses.
During that period found a lotof identity, especially because

(45:08):
online businesses did so wellduring Covid, right?
They found an identity in beingthat hustler and starting that
business or succeeding in thatbusiness, and now they're coming
out of that of like, okay, butwho am I and what's my worth
outside of my bank account?
And do I have to keep working atthis level because I can't keep
going?
This is exhausting.
But the moment I stop, themoment, I question what my worth
is, and so I just stay stuck inthis hamster wheel.

(45:29):
The delayed reaction really I'mseeing is, is really wrapped up
in identity and like.
Who am I when I am not workingfrom this place of survival?
Yeah.
I'm really glad that we tooksome time to like name that or
talk about it.
'cause it, it's something thatI, you know, I feel like I even
went through and I'm noticingclients go through like that
they're really, this what youlabeled it as, like this

(45:50):
identity dynamic that is goingon.
I feel like it's just.
So true.
Um, for a lot of us, it's like,who am I now versus who I showed
up and chose to be as I was likeleading my way through this
really uncertain time withoutreally knowing when it was gonna
end.
Um, and I was watching somedocumentary or something, um,
and they were just talking aboutthe difference between this and

(46:12):
like nine 11.
It's like nine 11 was a sink.
Like it was a, an event, it wasa moment in time, but like it
didn't linger on for years perse.
Like it was.
It happened in like, okay,buildings crash and it's
traumatic, but like Covid andthe pandemic, it's like, we
don't know when it's gonna.
Mm-hmm.
It just kind of kept drawingitself out.
Mm-hmm.
And I really just wanted to hearyour perspective on that.

(46:33):
Yeah, there was something aboutCovid that was really terrifying
because you, we were told atcertain times, okay, we can come
up for air.
No wait, everybody go back in.
Right?
And if you think of coming upinto safety, or sorry, leaving
safety to go up into fight orflight and then coming back down
into safety, then going right upback into fight or flight, the
crossing that barrier constantlyover and over is really taxing
to the nervous system.

(46:54):
Right.
And, and it's.
At some point people beginquestioning, you know, is it
even worth it for me to comeback up for air, or should I
just stay in my, you know,survival state in my
trauma-based identity and notcome out because it's painful to
have to keep coming back up forair and then being kind of
forced back into it all overagain.
Yeah, I think this wholeconversation is like, I think

(47:14):
many of us listening, myselfincluded, and I'm so, thank you
so much for coming on course.
Of course.
I'm like, this has been so juicyand delicious.
Um, it's like we have thisresilience and this grit in us,
but this is like a differentversion of resilience and grit,
of like your emotional staminato be able to hold space for the
trauma, hold space for thereaction, slow yourself down

(47:35):
enough to hold space for thestillness.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like a.
I don't know, like it's a, it'sa different, I think many of us
are used to like work, go getthe degrees, work hard, be
successful, climb the ladder,like play the external
capitalism game.
But this is like a differentversion of work that a lot of, I
think what makes us successfulin that external world.
If we can imply some of thosesame characteristic traits or

(47:58):
those same like identity markerscan be really supportive for us
through this internal work.
But like, I don't know, is therejust anything else you have to
say to somebody who.
It's either in the thick of itright now who's like, girl, I'm
doing the work and it's hard afor like, like for that woman
that's like, okay, you've readme for filth, my edges wear,
like I'm now baldheaded.

(48:20):
Thank you so much.
Um, how, like where like, Idon't know, just what do you
have to say to that woman that'slike maybe in the thick of it or
is like knowing they're beingcalled to do this type of work
and to have these mirrors and todo more of this self-reflection.
Um, but it feels like justreally, really scary.
Maybe.
Yeah, so I think the other thingI'm gonna say one more thing.
I think that the other thingthat comes up in conversations

(48:41):
is like if I've attached so muchof my identity to this version
of me, and now I'm like, okay, Ineed to maybe create some
distance, create some space,like I'm afraid of who am I
gonna become and what is itgonna mean when like this
version of success no longer isthe thing that.
Fuels my identity anymore.

(49:02):
Like who?
I think that's one thing I'vebeen navigating over the past
year.
Just I'll keep it 100 withy'all.
I'm like, well, who, who am I?
Like, who am I gonna become?
Like, I don't know that versionof her.
I mean, I know she's in me, butlike, I don't have as close, she
doesn't have as prominent as a,as a forefront relationship in
my awareness.
If I let all those pieces of mego, like if I let that struggle

(49:22):
go, if I let the trauma notdrive the ship anymore.
That's a hundred percent.
What I was going to say isusually people who are, who are
listening and we're at thisstage of like, okay, I kind of
get it like now what the biggestblock is this fear of like, but
if I stop and I don't keep goingat this level, or if I heal my
trauma, uh, will I just burn itall down and will I not be who I

(49:45):
currently am?
Who will I be if I'm not workingfrom this place of trauma and
will I lose my edge?
Will I not be as successful?
Right.
Yeah.
Will I.
Choose to go like live on a farmsomewhere and join a commune or
whatever, right?
In reality, you, most of thetime I'm telling people, you are
not successful because of yourtrauma.
It is not because of your traumathat you became successful.

(50:07):
There are traits within you thathave absolutely contributed to
your success, but it's becauseof your trauma that it's
actually blocking you from beingable to give in, dig into your
business in a way that'sactually sustainable, in a way
that's actually going toactivate some of that creative
flow where you come up with yourbest ideas, right?
When we are in fight or flight.
Our decision making ability iscut in half.

(50:29):
We have so much brain fog.
We can't have meaningfulconnections because the body
doesn't wanna connect when it'sin fight or flight.
We do not make good decisions.
We make everything out of panicand urgency.
We are not our best selves whenwe are in fight or flight, but
there's often this fear of like,but I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna
have my edge anymore.
I'm not gonna be as successful.
You will likely be, and I seethis time and time again.
Way more successful in metricsand using metrics that actually

(50:51):
matter to you and actually feelgood when you start to work from
a place of, uh, healing and trueself rather than false survivor
self.
So I think that person who'slike, Hmm, okay, but like,
what's next?
First of all, ask yourself, doyou even like yourself right
now?
Mm.
Do you even like this version ofyou?
That part, like we got like, doyou even like this version?

(51:12):
'cause this version, she soundsa little overwhelmed.
She sounds like she could use avacation.
I don't even know if you likethis version of you.
Right.
I'm constantly having thatconversation.
If you don't.
That's some good data for you.
We should probably do somethingabout that.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
So if you don't like thatversion, there are many versions
of you underneath all of thesetrauma responses that are very
excited and very wanting to comeout, but we need to heal and

(51:35):
soothe the trauma first.
Okay.
I'm like, one other thing I hadto circle it down in my notes is
this, because I feel like too,even with social media right now
with, um, I feel like everybodynamed Mama like Therapy and
going to therapy and doing thework is like.
Mainstream, it seems like nowit's no longer this necessarily
as big of a taboo as it was 10years ago or 15 years ago.

(51:55):
But I'm also, I've noticed whereit's like people will then start
to product productivity ties orproduct ties.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
I need to heal.
Like, is it?
Mm-hmm.
Like, and what I've been havingto work for myself is like,
deisha, this is not you there.
It's not a like a finish line.
Like, it's not like you, youheal this trauma and like you've
now won this new game where youjust kind of.

(52:15):
Be be like the perfectionistwhen it comes to self care.
Like is is, is trauma somethingthat can be quote unquote
healed?
Like is it, does it finish?
Does it end?
Like what?
Like what is the reality that weneed to maybe open and hold more
space for when it comes tohealing trauma?
So that depends on how someone'sgonna be defining healed, right?

(52:38):
For me, if when I hear peopleask me that question, usually
what they're asking is, can I goback to the version I was before
the trauma and or can I neverhave a symptom related to my
trauma again?
Can I never have a thought, afeeling related to my trauma
again?
No.
That's, that's not gonna happen,right?
If, if someone, um, what's agood example if, if you're, this
is such a silly example, ifyou're stabbed on the street.

(53:00):
Right.
Even when that heals, there is ascar and every time you look at
that scar, you're gonna feel ittype of way.
Right.
It's healed.
You're not bleeding out anymore.
It doesn't hurt as much, butthere are feelings, there are
thoughts associated with thefact that that scar is still
there.
Yeah.
Right.
So we're not looking for goingback to a version of you
post-trauma, and a lot of peopleare grappling with this when it
comes to accepting the the Covidpandemic, because we're not

(53:21):
trying to go backwards and findthat version of you.
We actually have to make senseof this current version of you.
Right.
We have to actually integratethis version of you.
So it's not so much abouthealed, it's about healing.
For me, especially the, theschools of thought I work with,
the, the work is never done.
Yeah, it's never done.
Right.
But there is a, like, um, thereis a, what is that word?

(53:44):
It's, it's, I'm losing it.
But there's a, there is a level,right?
There's a threshold where westart to see significant
benefit.
Right?
No.
Maybe no more rumination.
No more resentment.
You're not moving through lifeso fast.
Safety is more of a part of yournervous system baseline.
So you sleep better.
You're not, you don't have somany anxious thoughts.
You're not sweating so much.
Your heart rate isn't racing.
You're not so irritable.

(54:04):
Like there's some real metrics,but we can't come at this as
like, okay, I'm gonna achieve.
Isn't a achieve.
That's exactly what I'm tryingto say.
I'm on a checklist.
No, like, girl, you, this is notanother like gold medal that you
get to get.
Mm-hmm.
Like it's a No, I love what yousaid.
It's not healed ed.
It's healing ING.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're, for rest of yourlife.
Yeah.
Like you're still experiencinglife and things are still gonna

(54:25):
happen, but it's just like, doyou have the tools to help you
navigate these dynamicsdifferently in a safer, more
secure way than maybe how youwould've handled them
historically?
Yeah, the answer that, like,when people ask me, you know,
what does a, a healed CEO looklike?
Or what a, what does someone,you know, who's worked through
all their stuff and now they'rehaving leading their business
look like it is someone who haschoice, who is not at the mercy

(54:48):
of their panic or their fear, ortheir survivor self.
If you have choice.
If you can say, okay, thank youso-and-so va, I'm gonna take
this information even if it'sfor one minute, and just sit on
it and reflect and make a CEOdecision.
Even if that information isabout how someone just made a
major mistake.
If you have choice, an option onthe table, you're healing when

(55:10):
you are simply reacting over andover again, and you don't feel
like you have a choice in howyour body feels or reacts, or
what your mouth says, that's atrauma response.
Ooh.
I'm so glad we ended it on that.
'cause I feel like this has,this has been so good.
I'm like, Morgan, what do youhave coming out right now?
I know there is a program thatis currently, doors are about

(55:32):
when this drops doors will beopen for mm-hmm.
Um, but where can people learnmore?
Where's the best place to take anext step with you?
So you can find me on Instagramat Morgan Poels.
That's two M's.
Two L's in my last name.
My program, freedom from Fightor Flight Doors Open in five
Days.
That's a group coaching programfor the adult children of
emotionally mature parents, toreally heal your nervous system

(55:54):
and to come out of survival modeso you can be that version of
yourself that you've alwayslonged to be, but struggles to
come out because the trauma ishijacking all of it.
Yeah.
Otherwise, yeah, you can find meon Instagram and binge my
content and send me a DM or sendme an email.
Oh my gosh.
And your podcast.
Uh, yes, I do.
You're right.
I have a private podcast.
It's new, so I always forget.

(56:14):
I have a private podcast.
So yeah, come to my content andcon and comment podcast on any
post and I'll send it to you.
Okay.
Thank you so much for yourgenerosity and for this
conversation.
I am, I can't wait to play itback.
This is so good.
So just thank you for beinghere.
You're so welcome.