Alligator (1980)

It's big. It's green. It is NOT a kids soccer movie from the 90s. Busting up from the sewers, it's our long overdue episode on Alligator! 


Be careful what you flush. 


Support us on Patreon! 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Alligator.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
To me, it was it was scary and jaws Alligator.

Speaker 1 (00:04):
I'm just glad I had him to grab on through.

Speaker 3 (00:06):
I cannot believe this movie Alligator.

Speaker 2 (00:08):
It just scared me to death.

Speaker 4 (00:09):
I thought my heart would stop.

Speaker 3 (00:10):
Alligator really a thrilling experience.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
All right, this is Dick Miller.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
If you're listening to junk food Cinema, who are these guys?

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Watch out their leatherheads because the new junk food cinema
is coming down the pipe. Brought to you by Please
don't flush that dot.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Com dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Dot com dot Sharks are not the only creatures to
have jaws. This is, of course, the weekly cult exploitation
filmcst so good, it just has to be fattening. I'm
your host, Brian Salasbrain. I'm joined as per usual by
my friend and co host. He is a novelist. He
is a screenwriter, a lieutenant of Mega Force, a man
who wrestles alligators while eating chockodials. Mister c Robert Cargill, Hey,

(01:26):
how's it going, man?

Speaker 3 (01:28):
It's going well.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
This is a monumental week for junk food cinema.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
I mean it's a week that we thought happened years ago.
Maybe a decade ago. It's a film we have been
talking about as friends for as long as we've known
each other. It's a film that comes up all the
time while we talk, you know, in episodes of this podcast.
I was absolutely fucking convinced this was one of our
early episodes.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
It should have been, because this movie is one of
the pillars of junk Food Cinema, the movies that formulated
this podcast entirely. And although there have been many episodes,
many movies that have been covered in late episodes were like,
how in the hell have we not covered this? How long?
How did it take us this long to cover movie
X y Z XYZ? This movie? I feel like we

(02:16):
should be physically flogged for waiting eleven years to cover
on Junk Food Cinema.

Speaker 3 (02:21):
Right, yeah, with.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Leathery alligator hide flogs, we should be flogged for not
covering this one. But before we get into that, we
have to get into the housekeeping to let you know that, indeed,
eleven years of Junk Food Cinema is available on your
favorite podcatcher. You can also follow us on social media
at Junk Food Cinema. And if you really like.

Speaker 3 (02:41):
The show, I mean, you really like the show.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
You like it as much as I loves me some
Henry Silva. You can go to patreon dot com slash
Junk Food Cinema financially support the show. We greatly appreciate it,
not as much as we appreciate the likes of mister
John Sales and mister Roger Corman and mister Lewis t
and the collaboration between the three of them. In a
little movie called Alligator.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
It lives fifty feet beneath the streets. It weighs over
two thousand pounds, it's killed five people already, and it's
a fun It's a breakout Alligator rated R.

Speaker 3 (03:30):
I'm really disappointed that you just said that.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Why Why are you disappointed that I said that?

Speaker 3 (03:34):
Because you left out Robert Forster.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
I did leave out Robert Forster.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
I mean Saint Robert Forrester. Yeah, I mean, I mean,
that's the thing is, Yeah, we love this team working together.
But Robert Forster Man, he's one of our faves, our
deep fried fucking faves.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
An actor who leads with his hairline. You know, they
always talk about how actors entered scenes they lead with
different parts of their body. He's one of the only
actors still lead with his hairline, and we appreciate that
about him very much.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
I mean, it was gonna come up eventually, but you know,
we may as well just jump in. The hairline stuff
is all improvised. Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that,
but they quite literally. Those jokes weren't in the script.
He just had started losing his hair and people commented
on it, and they thought it would be funny to
put it in the movie, and boy, howdy is it.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
You know who really thought it was funny was Tarantino
because then he turned that into a whole dialogue bit
in Jackie Brown years later, and I feel like there
was at least one other movie. Here's the thing, Cargil,
when I was first watching Robert Forrester's movies, because yes,
Robert Forrester is one of my favorite actors of all time.
I'm very, very lucky to have gotten to interview him.

(04:47):
I love this guy. I love his work. There's so
many of his movies that are bread and butter, junk
food cinema, and I feel like when I was watching
them for the first time, when I was first getting
exposed to Robert Forrester's work in my twenties at the
Alamo dres House. I found this running theme very funny
that he would always talk about, you know, his hair
thinning and his receding hairline, and it was like a

(05:08):
thing right in my forties. I think it makes him
the most relatable sympathetic performer I've ever seen.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
I don't know what you're talking about, Oh, I bet.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
You don't, but something about starting to lose.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
He came out with this head of hair. I just
came out, you know, with locks waving in the wind.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
All right, look, Prince Valiant. The point is most of us,
by our forties start to notice the hair thinning, and
Prince Fauntleroy, Yeah, yes, because my ruffled breitch is always
in public. That's what I wear. Although I do you
know what I joke, I obviously don't dress like little
Lord faunt Leroy, but I am always eating a giant lollipop,

(05:48):
So I kind of feel like that's not an unwarranted comparison.
That's a fair enough situation. Yes, absolutely, we're talking about alligator.
We're talking about Alligator, one of the greatest, maybe my
favorite Jaws knockoff of all time. Really, yeah, I think
like this in the car Our Neck and Neck for

(06:10):
my favorite Jaws knockoff.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
I've talked about this recently because one of the best
Jaws knockoffs of all time was just done Joe Bob recently. Uh,
Perunya Paranya and Uh. And then, of course I still
contend the greatest Jaws knockoff all time is Alien, and

(06:33):
it's it's really hard to get around just how undeniably
great Alien is as a movie in terms of quite
literally one of the best science fiction films of all time,
one of the best horror films of all time. Uh.
Not a flaw in that movie, not a bit you
have to apologize for or laugh off. It's just a
perfect film.

Speaker 2 (06:52):
I've never really thought about Alien as being a Jaws
knockoff before.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Despite the fact that it was pitched as Jaws in Spain,
the most famous pitch in movie history.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I'm not arguing that it's not Jaws in Space. It's
just it doesn't hit me that way. You know, it
doesn't hit me the way that you know a Corman
shameless knockoff would hit me like very much like a
Piranha or this film, which was also produced by Roger Corman.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
But like you you run to the Car, even though
the Car is you know it, you know, very similar.
It's a sidestep. It's a very serious horror film. It's
not tongue in cheek, but it does ape Jaws in
many ways. I think the thing is the key to
this argument, and it is an argument, and a lot
of you disagree with me. When I said the other
day that Piranha was better than the Car, a lot

(07:42):
of you told me what for. And I'm sure that
Brian will do the same right now.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
But that's all I need to say. It's not even
really an argument. That's just fundamentally not true.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
But go on, I mean it, you know, thefts between
the two despite their age. Everyone's heard of Piranha.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
That's fine. That does not make one movie better than
the other just because more people have seen it. I
just mean that means more people are failing as human beings.
That has nothing to do with the quality of the films.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
The thing is, we're literally having an argument over the
top four Jaws knockoffs of all times. So let's get
it to five and throw razorback in there, because these
are the five and every time people argue, they go, hey,
you need to throw a Razorback in there. I'm like, well, yeah,
if we're talking about the top five, I love Razorback,
what are you talking about? Razorback's fucking great. I have
a Razorback T shirt. I have been making Razorback references

(08:39):
for years now. I love it. I love the car,
I love Piranha, I love Alligator, I love Alien. They
are all great, And if we're gonna have to put
it them in order, we're gonna disagree over the order.
But I think we can all agree that in terms
of Jaws knockoffs, those are the five. Those are the
big five. Those are the Titans.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, we're really splitting hairs between. What we're doing right
now is we're arguing about the best tasting food at
our favorite buffet. Like you love all of these things,
like put them all in the plate. What are we doing?

Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah, Yeah, it's the Low main Man, the Low Maine,
the MSG and the Lomain makes it the best. Oh
it's the fried chicken. It's the Korean fried chicken.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's pick your favorite. But the point is
they're all tasty and delicious. And just to backstep really quickly,
Alligator from nineteen eighty was not actually produced by Roger Corman,
but it was created by two of his disciples. We
talk all the time, of course, about the school of Corman,
hit that Corman Ali, about the number of great artists

(09:44):
and creators who came out of working with Roger Corman,
who started their who cut their teeth by working with
Roger Corman. And one of those is one of our
patron saints, of course, the great John Sales, one of
the greatest screenwriters of all time in my estimation, and
and this was this was a situation where he actually
took over another script. He was handed in another script

(10:06):
for this movie and and completely rewrote it for obvious reasons. Apparently,
the original draft of this script was going to take
place in Milwaukee, and the alligator lived under the streets
in the sewers and was made giant by drinking the
beer that had been dumped from the breweries into the sewer. So,

(10:28):
I mean, it just reads way more as a comedy
than as a legitimate Jaws knockoff horror film. So it's
obvious why John Sales comes in and completely re rewrites
the script by Frank Ray Perrelli. And then we have
another Corman alum to direct the film Lewis Teigue, who
started as an editor. He was he was recommended to

(10:52):
Roger Corman by a film school buddy of his, Martin Scorsese.
Martin Scorsese actually recommended Lewis t to Roger Corman, and
Scorsese was supposed to edit the film Cockfighter, for Corman
was unavailable because he was directing a movie. So Lewis
Teag stepped in and edited on Cockfighter, and they did
some second unit directing on movies like oh, I don't know,

(11:14):
Death Race two thousand. Like seriously, when you start looking
at Lewis Tig's IMDb profile, his name, he touched upon
so many of the greatest Corman films of all time,
even before he got to be a director, and it's
just it's it's fucking remarkable. And Lewis Teak of course,
then goes on to direct Kujo, He goes on to
direct Cat's Eye, like a number of really fantastic movies.

(11:38):
But this I think that sales. Yes, they're going to
do some things too, I guess.

Speaker 3 (11:44):
Well, he starts out doing some things. His first movie
is Piranhaya. By the way, sidebar, I've told you about this.
I don't know if I've talked about it on the
on the podcast, but Joe Dante was interviewed during one

(12:07):
of the Yorky thans over on movie Grip Gets the
movie Cramps, and he was he specifically as a listener
of the of the show. He asked Joe Dante about
the pronunciation of Piranya by that actress because he found
it as funny as we did, and said, what do

(12:27):
you mean? You know, what do you think about? You know,
her pronunciation of the word Piranya like that, and Joe
Dante just goes, you mean the only one in the
film is pronounce it correctly, And that's when I shut
the fuck up. Amazing, Joe Dante served me some humble
pie with a side of crow, So I will. So,

(12:49):
as we're making this Piranha joke today, we are not
making fun of her. I want you to understand, we're
making fun of ourselves now for having made it a
whole thing, because Joe Dante gave us a whole big
shut fuck ups in that's about But so he starts
with Piranha StarCraft, he starts with Piranha. He works with

(13:09):
Lewis Tige in The Lady in Red an uncriminally underseen movie, uh,
followed by Return of the Sakka seven in the Sacacca
seven in the same year. So that's seventy nine, seventy eight,
Piranha seventy nine, Lady in Red, Return of Tocucas seven eighty,
Battle Beyond the Stars an Alligator eighty one, The Howling.

(13:30):
This is how he kicks off his fucking career. He
goes with some of the biggest, junkiest, best genre of
films in that era of films we're still seeing echoes
of today. Piranha's been remade twice already. The Howling has
six or seven sequals, I think one of them technically

(13:50):
unfinished uh. And Battle Beyond the Stars is, you know,
lives in the forever in the cannon of great magnificent
seven stories, while also having just other things peppered in there.
And then he caught the acting bove bug later and
would fall more into writing his own material.

Speaker 2 (14:11):
And goes on to Wright of course eight min outs
goes on to bees do uncredited work on Apollo thirteen.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Lone Star A favorite here Matt Matawan, which is incredible.
Me and Scott watched rewatch that together a couple of
years ago, and holy shit, is it lind in my
head ever since? Of course men with guns and limbo
and started doing lots of like cool indie stuff in
the the the Odts because he could. Yeah, and has

(14:44):
just been always ever present in Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
So the legend has it that the money that he
made doing Alligator, the money that he made from Alligator.
He then turns around and makes Return of the Seacaucus seven,
which is his directorial debut and the movie that really
kind of put him on the map. But yes, also
nineteen eighty writes, because of his long standing love of
Akira Kurosawa, takes seven, Samurai runs it too a Star

(15:12):
Wars filter and creates the movie without which I don't
think we would have a podcast. Batt'll Beyond the Stars. Yeah,
this is a formative, formative individual, not only for this podcast,
but for the appreciation of movies like this. Love John Sales,

(15:33):
love that he and Lewis Tiger are working together. However,
you mentioned Paranya a few times now. This movie was
originally offered to Jodante for him to direct it, but
because he had just made Piranya was like, you know,
I've kind of done the Jaws knockoff monster eating people movie.
I kind of want to do other things now, so

(15:53):
he turns it down and that's when it goes to
Lewis Tigue, who I think does a phenomenal job in
this movie, especially with creating tension and making it elevating
the actual art form of this movie so that it's
not just a monster movie of the week. Like this
movie has a lot of actual craft in it, which
which I very much appreciate. And it reminds me a

(16:14):
lot of The Car, because the Car could have just
been a drive in movie based on a wild, over
the top premise, but there is so much care and
craft that went into that movie that it elevates. And
I feel like that's exactly what we're talking about with Alligator.
You have real artists working on a movie that they
very much care about, and the result is something that
is so much better than the usual direct that gets

(16:36):
churned out in the wake of Jaws.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
The script here is phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:42):
It is one of those things that there's so much
weird going on that you don't see. It is not
structured like any other movie you can think of. You
does it have all the hallmarks and set pieces of
a Jaws knockoff. Absolutely, is there a big party event
that shouldn't be going on during a crisis that an
animal shows up and har's people apart one hundred percent?

(17:02):
You know, are there lots of cocky people that put
themselves in danger and die horribly? Absolutely? Do you have
somebody tirelessly trying to prove something that no one will
believe him on until it is too late. Yes. But
apart from those similarities, the structure of this movie does
something I've never seen another film, not just of its like,

(17:24):
but another film do. And I'll just get into it
because this is one of the most fascinating things about
this movie. This movie, while called Alligator, could very easily
be called assholes.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (17:38):
Absolutely, this is a movie in which almost every character
that Robert Forrester runs into at some point. Robert Forrester
is playing Detective David Madison. He's a longtime cop, He's
got kind of a dark past. We learn about that.
It has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever. It
has to do with the first part of the movie,
and I'll get there. But he is a single detective

(18:03):
doing his thing, and he is investigating a case, and
every person he runs into from the pet shop to
guys at work, to everyone. Everyone in this movie's a
fucking asshole, and they become antagonists at certain points of
the movie. The movie's first antagonist is a pet shop

(18:26):
owner who is clearly stealing people's dogs, including probably have
stolen Robert Forrester's dog, only to turn around and sell
him another dog a few weeks later. And this is
not his second dog. You know, it's clear Robert Forster's
looking for some kind of connection and keeps adopting dogs.
And then this fucker's going and stealing the dogs that
he's buying from his pet shop and then selling them

(18:49):
to a pharmaceutical company that's pumping them full of hormones
to make them big. And he is our first antagonist,
and we see him stealing dogs off the streets, and
then he goes the way of the alligator, and then
we are introduced to the guys at work. And the
guys at work are all assholes. They don't want to
work with this guy, not because he's an asshole, just
because they're fugging assholes. We have an asshole reporter. We have,

(19:14):
you know, someone who starts off as an asshole and
becomes less of an asshole a herpetologist. Like everyone along
the line through this movie, we're gonna get through. While
we're talking about the plot, there will be another asshole
standing in his way, proving to be the real antagonist
of the movie. Well, the alligators just running around doing
what an alligator does.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Living under the streets of Chicago and eating.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
With an insatiable appetite because it is full of hormones.
But yeah, the interesting thing about this movie is the
first act of this movie, the first thirty minutes, is
a movie where every character in the movie thinks they're
in a different movie. Oh yeah, they think they're in
a nineteen eighty gnarly New York City here, real killer movie.

(20:01):
Like you know, the the questions coming from the press,
everybody dodging, do we have a serial killer on the street.
Nobody has any idea that this is a pissed off
nature movie, because it doesn't work like any other pissed
off nature movie we've seen. It works like a sleazy
nineteen eighty serial killer movie. It works like we're beginning,

(20:23):
you know, we're knocking off Giallo. But that's just the
you know, misdirection for our characters. The audience knows what
it is. We know what's fucking going on. We saw
the title of the movie. It's called Alligator. It started
with an alligator getting flushed down the toilet. But as
it goes on, first Robert Forster knows what movie he's in,

(20:44):
and then it takes a while until everyone else comes around,
and for a while he's a pariah. But everyone from
the beginning in this movie is a fucking asshole and
a paria. And it's almost as if Sales is venting

(21:08):
all the people he runs into in his daily life
that he just piss him off, and he's putting them
in the movie and then having them by an alligator.
But also it feels like he's showing off his chops
here because there's so much great writing, there's so much
character work put into every asshole. And then watching Robert Forster,
there's not a lot you can actually say about David

(21:29):
Madison as a character, you know, but you get to
know who he is by watching how he navigates all
of these other assholes in his life, and that's his
defining trait, is how resilient he is against how shitty
people are. In nineteen eighty Chicago, and it is a
fascinating exercise in terms of writing, like it is when

(21:53):
you watch it from that perspective, the alligator is almost
secondary to everything else. David matt As it's going through
and it's I'm just I marvel at it, and it
doesn't even become the falling into the real tropes of
a pist Off nature movie all the way until we
get through that first half hour and he's discovered what's

(22:15):
going on. He's lost a partner. He's on the outs
with the department, because this is the second partner he's
lost in his career, and was the first one any
fault of his own, but this one certainly wasn't. And
who honestly thought there was a crocodile down there? They

(22:36):
were looking for clues for a serial killer and just
didn't know they were in the wrong movie. And from
that point on, it's just introduction of asshole after introduction
of an asshole after introduction of asshole, and then watching
those assholes get eaten spectacularly.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
It does kind of feel like John Sales took one
bad trip to Chicago and is venting a lot of
his feelings about it. And you're right, the audience is
aware that we're watching a Jaws knockoff. The movie seems
to think this is able. Ferira's Alligator's yes for a
large portion of the run time, which is really fun.

Speaker 3 (23:11):
After these messages, we'll be right back. This may take
a while.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Have a chucodile hostess Chuco Diles from Julcy, chucka dile.

Speaker 5 (23:20):
It takes a while to eat a chuca dile.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
You have to wait a while.

Speaker 5 (23:24):
Have a chuck of dial.

Speaker 2 (23:26):
It's so big, get deliciously. It takes a while to
be the chuca dill. Post this Chuco dile. That's a
golden cake coming with chocolate flavorite cream silling inside.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
So thinking delicious nun It takes a while to wait
the Chuca dile hostess Chuco Diles cake.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
Let's go back even further to how this movie actually opens,
because this is to me, the wildest thing about it
being a Jaws knockoff is how it opens, because.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
How one of our protagonists actually has backstory with the monster.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Like imagine if Jaws and with watching Matt Hooper go
to like SeaWorld, do you know what I mean? Like
what he goes and sees a shark for the first time,
and it's a formidable memory, and that's why he becomes
a shark expert. Right. The movie opens in nineteen sixty
eight Florida, and we're watching, like, I gotta tell you, man,

(24:19):
if alligator does anything that ups the jaws anti, it's
the fact that it gives us a gator attack in
the first minute of the fucking movie. Like, we're not
even a minute in and we see this guy's leg
get almost bitten completely off at some roadside dirt bag
Florida gator show, and this little girl is watching it
instead of being horrified by this as like, man, I

(24:41):
love alligators. I want to take one home, and ends
up taking home a baby alligator. And then we learn
later in the movie like they don't really they don't
really hammer this or underline it at all. But it
turns out that the person we're watching the beginning of
this movie is the Matt Hooper character, who in this
movie is a female herpetologist. We're watching her childhood because

(25:03):
when they take the alligator home, they have the radio
be like and there was a riot today at the
nineteen sixty eight Democratic National Convention, And you're like, oh, okay,
so this is. This is clearly in the past, and
it's in fact the female herpetologists as a child and
her asshole dad who decides that there are gator turns
all over the house, so while she's as cool, he

(25:24):
flushes it down the toilet. And I was already like,
wait a minute, this thing lives in an aquarium. How
could there be turds all over the house. And also
the size of this thing, it's like the size of
an eraser. How big could those turds possibly be? This
dude's just an asshole. Oh yeah, he's the first asshole
of many assholes in this movie.

Speaker 3 (25:40):
Yes, this is This is a series of assholes, A
series of unportionate assholes.

Speaker 2 (25:48):
I'm sure that was Sales's original title for this script.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
And by the way, the final shot of the movie
where we see a tiny baby alligator that was clearly
flushed down the toilet into the sewers, even that has
its own backstory. It came from another asshole, the guy
trying to sell him on the street, and he gives
the you know, rubber porters are unwitting that gives it
to the cops, thinking they'll do the right thing, and

(26:12):
it's obvious no they just flushed it down the toilet. Yeah,
what's starting is all over again, Chicago.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
What John Sales is trying to make you understand is
that everything that ends up in the sewer comes from assholes.
Wait a minute, hold on, is that what he's trying
to teach us is that the listen to this movie.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
It's a big it's a big butt joke, ninety minutes
of butt jokes.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
And that is why we love this movie at Junk
Food Cinema. Yeah, you see.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Alligator, It's like ool josh, they flushed that thing like
they just had a dunk Gachino, Like, what is happening?

Speaker 2 (26:52):
What is happening an alligator? I don't know, and I
don't much care because I love this fucking movie. I
love the fact that it's a Jaws knockoff because the
music cues when the gator is somehow sneaking up on
people despite being thirty six feet long. You've got that
very like two cord ominous tone type of score. You've
got severed legs floating away after attacks. You've got cops

(27:16):
that aren't believed when they're like, there's a gator down there.
Oh no, we're not closing the sewers. It's the fourth
of July. We gotta die. Wait's St. Patrick's Day. We
got to die. The river Green We're not closing the
sewers or whatever the fuck. Like, there's so much, so
much Jaws in this movie, right down to the fact that,
again the main character lineup is it's a triumvirent of
a cop, a biologist, and a hunter. Like literally, those

(27:38):
are the three people who are going after this this shark. Oh,
I'm sorry, this alligator.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
And by hunter, he's there for like twelve minutes of
the movie.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
He let dude, okay, fine, let's show that Henry.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Yeah, let's jump into it. Let's Henry Silva.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Baby.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
We love Henry Silva.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
His full name, of course, is Henry goddamn Silva. I
love seeing him in any movie he turns up in.
He is the sleazy version of Quint. He hits on
every woman that talks to him in this movie.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
Brings out all the casual racism, all.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
The casual racism, and yet still manages to be as
completely unhinged and insane as Quint, which I do appreciate.
It's just he's just and everyone hates him like ill.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, because again he entered this movie and has to
be an asshole. You know, even the nicest character in
this movie starts off as an act. In fact, I
would argue the two nicest people in the movie, Marissa Kendall,
the herpetologist and her mother, both their assholes towards the beginning.
Her mom's an asshole towards the beginning of the film
when they're like talking about flushing the the alligator.

Speaker 2 (28:46):
And then.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Marissa, you know, is actively telling this guy he's wrong
right up front. No, you're wrong, you're wrong. They get
off on the wrong foot. They end up falling into
bed eventually, but even start off as antagonistic, nobody nobody's
on his side except for the chief at first, until

(29:08):
the chief flips and they're like, give me a badge
because it's a cop movie, so we've got to give
you know, your badge and your gun. Eventually, but yeah,
Henry Silva comes in cock off the block, like hey, thanks,
fuck all of you.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
But you know what's crazy about that is that he
gets his badge taken away, not because he's reckless, not
because he blew up, you know, something during a car
Jay has caused collateral damage. He just kind of sort
of annoyed a pharmaceutical company, and that pharmaceutical CEO is
friends with the mayor, so he was able to just
get him fired off the force. M we're asking questions.
I was like, damn, this is cutthroat. This is a

(29:45):
a hell of a way to live.

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah. Yeah, no, I'd be like he like shows up
and like, boss, I'm about to push too far. You've
already pushed too far.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Oh and by the way, his police chief in this
movie played by the great Michael Gazo from Most Most
Most of you probably know him from Godfather too, But
this is a guy who was not only an actor,
but a uh it was an acting teacher and a playwright.
I actually, weirdly when I was in school and I
thought I wanted to be an actor, so like that

(30:16):
was my major. We would read scenes from Hatfull of Rain,
which is a play that he wrote. It's like a
freaking award winning play. But the thing that I kept
thinking about the entire time that I was watching this
movie is how his eyebrows were completely in business for themselves.
Oh yeah, what what is that one on the on
the left especially just seems to be climbing up the

(30:36):
side of his head and is very distracting.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
He's looking for scenery that those are eyebrows that are
chewing the scenery.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Forget about the gators and the sewers. It's the eyebrows
crawling up from the top of his head that you
really need to be worried about. And he's he's great
in this. It's like he doesn't quite believe Robert Forrester
at first, and then he does believe him, but then
his hands are tied and then he just kind of
becomes a bumbling cop by the end of the movie,
Like it's just it's fantastic. It's actually a really solid,

(31:04):
impressive cast.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
And then and then and then Robert Forrester is just like,
maybe I set them up with your mom?

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, why not? That mom has dementia? Right, They don't
explicitly say it, but the first time are her patologist
calls her mom. The first time Robin Riker as Marissa
Kendall calls her mom. The mom starts going on and
on about how it's a school night and that she's
like gonna press her shirt and skirt for the next day.

(31:32):
Like I'm pretty sure this woman thinks her daughter is
still in high school, like there's there's something good, Like.

Speaker 3 (31:38):
I think there's a lot of that going on because
there's the hole she still lives with her mother kind
of aspect, and I think it's like the no, she
doesn't still live with her mother. Her mother lives with her, right,
And so it's the oh, she's a spinster. No, she's
not a spinster. She's an unmarried woman caring for her
aging ailing mother who's adorable and lovable but not all there.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, the engine's running, but nobody's behind the wheel.

Speaker 3 (32:05):
I mean that's another one of the weird amazing things
about this script is there's just moments like that Pepper
throughout the movie, moments that have nothing to do with
an alligator movie that are you know, there's a whole
two minute sequence with Robert Forrester and Marissa's mom that
is just great little character piece, and it's just a

(32:28):
really great little moment between these two characters, and then
the movie moves on. There's a whole scene where they
have to diffuse a bomb with a mad bomber who's
not a mad bomber, he's just fucking crazy. Like, what
does that have to do with the rest movie? Nothing?
Just really great character stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
It felt like the color, like the extra color added
to something like the Detroit Police Station in Robocopy years later. Yeah,
like just just fun business of like establishing how crazy
people are in this city. But also that's what John
Sales does so well, and it's so indicative of his
appreciation for the Seven Samurai, not just coros how but

(33:06):
specifically the Seven Samurai, because it's all like, everything Sales
does is a character piece, no matter how wild the
actual plot or the conceit of the film is, he
is going to take us time and give us characters
that we can either love or admire or hate or
just like spending time with. And that's what he did
with Battle Beyond the Stars is he's like, I'm going

(33:26):
to do seven Samurai because that gives me at least
seven opportunities and more in fact, to create really interesting,
fun characters. And that's who we want to spend our
time with. That's what we remember about these movies.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
He did it in Piranha too, Yes, you know where
you know it's a the hero is a drunken mountain
man and a you know, a sexy scientist like that's
that that is clearly his mo O for these because
they're they're they're they're kind of similar, except David Madison
isn't a drunk. He's just everybody hates him for some reason.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Like yeah, he's good at his job and so everyone
despises him.

Speaker 3 (34:04):
Like it's just for some reason, everybody just hates this guy. Uh,
you know, but but yeah, like that, you look at
the character work that the fun, weird little character work
in Piranha, that doesn't you know, line up with what
you'd expect from this kind of a movie. And that's
that was you know, Robert, that was John sALS, you know,

(34:27):
really flexing his writing muscles. And this could easily be
a lean mean, we're using every scene we can to
have people walk slowly while the alligator is stalking them,
and instead it's like no, no, no, this is a
character piece about about what happens when this whole alligator
thing happens. And it's just really really dense in terms

(34:50):
of its character work in place of trying to create
density of story, because there's no density of story here.
You know the story, we told you the story An
alligator got flushed down the toilet nineteen seventy eight. It's
been eating you know, over medicated dogs that have been
growing really big and getting too much hormone in it.
It is now huge, it is now eating everybody discuss.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Also, this story really kicks off. Yeah, the gator gets
flushed in like nineteen sixty eight, it's living. It's somehow
gets flushed in Florida ends up in Chicago. Not sure
how that works. It might not be the same alligator.
It's hard to say they.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Were visiting Florida. It doesn't mean they were living in Florida.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Oh, I guess that's true. I guess that is true.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
They were on vacation, because if you lived in Florida
and they flushed the alligator, she just go back and
get another alligator. But no, they were traveling.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
Do you think sidebar, do you think that that little
like roadside dirtbag zoo where they saw that alligator show
was one of the Tiger King's properties, Like, do you
think maybe that's why everything went wrong there and somebody died?

Speaker 3 (36:01):
I mean he was a baby then, But it's that
kind of event. I mean absolutely, that is one of
those fucked up you know run by you know, shady
fly by night. Hey, I'm good at catching alligators so
I got some alligators and put a fence around my land,
and now it's an alligator show.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
These places that are run by carnies who think they're
they're Jack Hannah like that kind of weird like dichotomy going.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
I mean, I would say, I would say it's the
fly by night nature that got got you know, the
guy eaten up front. But I've seen blackfish.

Speaker 4 (36:35):
So.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Bam baalamb. But I guess my follow up question is
do you think that this roadside zude will ever financially recover? Actually,
it doesn't even feel like they just pulled the guy out,
like oh, he's okay, folks, He's okay, and then everyone
just goes to the gift shop. I don't feel like
they missed one show or one performance. They did not
miss a beat when that guy's leg gets torn. Me.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Let's be honest here, going to an alligator show is
a lot less like going to a race car event,
whether it's NASCAR, whether it's dirt track racing, whatever. You're
going to see the crashes. Sure, you want that alligator
to chop the guy You're That's the whole tension of
the show. Is is he or isn't he? And when

(37:16):
nothing happens, you're like, Yay, what a brave guy, And
when something happens, you're like even better.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
I think what you've hit upon accidentally socio culturally is
that gator shows are American bullfights. I mean.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
Rooting for the gator to win, right, I mean, except
that they don't stab the.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
Gator at the end unless he starts eating.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Alligator shows if run by peta.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So, really, we are more evolved than ours brethren, is
what you're saying.

Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, I mean those those events started long ago, back
in history, when you know, killing a bull meant hey,
everybody eats afterwards.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
The state of Florida just poked its head up and went, wait,
someone said, we're more evolved than anyone else. Really, we're Florida.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
You know that it's not a you know, it's not
a big jump there.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
They will financially recover, don't you worry?

Speaker 3 (38:16):
Yeah, you know it's you know, in Dumb and Dumber,
one of them is the smarter one, as evidenced by
the title, But you know, not by much.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Can you fucking imagine Ernest Hemingway writing these like long,
impressive legendary novels about gator shows in Florida death would
be in the Afternoon or some shit like I would
read those books. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
I mean, the thing is as obsessed he was with
being manly. I kind of wish he had written that.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
Yeah, yeah, death in the Afternoon would just be called
Hey y'all watch this.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Hey y'all watch this by Ernest.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
The man did head But if you were to store,
if you were in a story about someone headbutting their
way out of a burning plane, wouldn't you immediately assume
that's a Florida man story.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
Yeah, well he wasn't. He was at Florida Man. Like,
what did he do during World War Two? He and
his fishing buddies went out and got drunk and looked
for Nazi subs. That's what they did, and they got
paid for it. They went and fishing expeditions as sub
hunting exposition expeditions to keep the subs out of the

(39:35):
the Gulf of Mexico. And uh, that's what he did.
Like he's Florida man as fuck.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
And to his credit, there is not one reported Nazi
sub in the Gulf of Mexico during World War two,
So great job him away, But you're right.

Speaker 3 (39:50):
I mean, look, he had, he had. Look now we're
into the literary aspect of this, and now I you know,
now I have something to say.

Speaker 2 (40:00):
Appreciated by the way that this sidebar about Hemingway is
just one long run on sidebar, because I mean, it's
very appropriate for him, and.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
Never nobody's ever broached it with me like that. But
I mean, Hemingway's famous famous catchphrase was done writing by
noon drunk by three? Is there anything more Florida man
than drunk by three?

Speaker 2 (40:20):
That's true. I think most of the Florida man stories
are about day drinking. And then you know, as the
scholar brothers say, six pm is the three am of
day drinking. That's why all of those people get arrested.
Like six point thirty in the evening.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
Sunds down, time to go where I fill up the
drunk tank.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Oh my god. And then what happens after that? The
sun also rises. Hemingway was a Florida man, That's what.

Speaker 3 (40:44):
We YEA Hemingway was a Florida man, My true man.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
I wish I could go back to twelfth grade Brian
and make this the subject of his ap English class Essayway.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
The most respected Florida man of all times. This is correct,
Stargirl did love his cats. Of course, after these messages,
we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (41:09):
You've been playing for hours gets dry more than just
a coun new gotta get you've been.

Speaker 3 (41:19):
Chalking for mouse.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Your mouth gets dry well than just a gun. You gotta.

Speaker 4 (41:27):
Jater gun.

Speaker 5 (41:27):
When your mouth gets dry, try dat gun the Flavorm's
Boreland just to come.

Speaker 4 (41:34):
Gater gum regular or orange, ask for it.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
I think my favorite thing about this being a Jaws
knockoff is the fact that it is a knockoff, right
down to the fact that they also named their problematic
animatronic monster in this movie. It is Ramone, the often
malfunctioning animatronic alligator. But I mean, that's one of my
favorite things about this movie, and when I think is
so legitimately masterful about it, is that that they they

(42:02):
have this great combination of miniatures and stock footage of
real gators and stunt work and animatronics and even men
in suits to bring this monster to life in a
very convincing fashion like I really love and it maybe
it's out of necessity, much like Jaws when Bruce wasn't working,

(42:22):
but the way in which they find to layer these
different elements so that never looking at the alligator for
too long dead on and thinking, oh, that looks fake.
The alligator really never felt fake to me at any point,
And I think it's just the combination of different elements
that they're using to bring it to life.

Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yeah, I know. The weird thing is the fakest the
alligator feels is when they're using a miniature set in
a real tiny alligator.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, when the alligator is an actual, real alligator.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
That's where it feels the worst. That and the one
shot of the of the waitress at the wedding in
the mouth being like flashed around. That looks that one,
That one looks pretty pretty sketchy.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
That that one is a little bit uh what is it?
Fucking Bella Lagosi and that Edward movie moving the tentacles
of the octopus around, Yeah, because they forgot the motor
like that. That definitely has a little bit of that
going on, for sure, Fuck you you come out here.
But otherwise I think this alligator, like the way they
build tension with it is so good. Like one of
my favorite shots in this movie is toward the beginning

(43:28):
when they're looking for. By the way, what jump starts
this investigation is that a sewer worker goes missing. And
do you remember the name of that sewer worker?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Oh? Yes, oh fuck, yeah, No, no, I don't remember it.
I remember noticing noting it and going, oh, that's weird.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, sewer worker Edward Norton.

Speaker 3 (43:50):
Edward Norton, That's what it was.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
So either this alligator has chomped one half of the honeymooners,
or every time they go down there to look for
ed Norton and they keep finding Brad Pitt for some reason,
and they can't figure out why one of those two
things is happening. At the beginning of this movie. Yes,
it's just like when I heard that, I literally had
to pause it and go, wait, what what's what's the

(44:13):
name of this worker?

Speaker 3 (44:13):
Edward Norton?

Speaker 2 (44:14):
Okay, no, no, the first Hulk bam zoom right to
the sewer to be eaten by an alligator.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Oh actually, no, I take that back, second Hulk. Don't
don't at me. Oh man, he was the second Hulk,
not the first Hulk.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
Man, the mods are going to bring down the Bana
hammer on you.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
And in fact, no, no, no, no, actually I'm technically
right the first time. He's the first Hulk in the
MCU and the third Hulk to be on television if
he count television.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
We got that settled now, so that everyone can save
their Hulk tweets.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Yeah, yeah, well, look, I wrote an MCU movie. If
I get Marvel shit wrong, I'm gonna hear about it.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Come on, you wouldn't like nerds when they're angry, that's all.

Speaker 3 (44:57):
We don't like nerds when they're angry. It's literally, that's
literally the whole thing. We literally make fun of nerds
who are angry, even when we're angry.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
This is true. This is very true.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Baran Ya.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
When they're down in that sewer, uh, he takes this guy, Kelly,
this this uh, this young officer down there with him
to look for Ed Norton, and there's this shot officer
red shirt and they're they're looking at the map with
the flashlight and as soon as they turn on the flashlight,
just just above them on a ledge, you see the
animatronic alligator's head and then it just kind of goes away.

(45:33):
Like I thought that shot was legitimately chilling. I really
thought that was cool. Oh yeah, or like later when
when that journalist, that that that pink o journalist.

Speaker 3 (45:42):
The other asshole, Yes, the asshole journalist who shows up
just to give our protagonist a hard time then goes
in and gets eaten.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
Yes, yeah, people are being eaten by alligators. Yes, but
didn't your partner get shot? Like, dude, really, this is
what you're talking about right now? No?

Speaker 3 (45:57):
No, no, uh he was stabbed right, No, he was shot?
All right, yeah, fuck.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
You, such a dick move. And when he gets his
and he's being eaten, and the only way we see
the alligators in the camera flashes again, creative way to
get around, you know, the alligator looking fake, but it
also kind of looks like the alligator is eating Audrey.
Hepburn and Wait until Dark, which is a whole like
mashup movie I would absolutely watch, but like just the
way that they use these different elements to build tension. Again,

(46:24):
maybe out of necessity for you know, the animatronics not working,
or we don't want it to look fake, whatever, there
is still care and craft that goes into that, and
I think a lot of that has to do with
Lewis Tigue's what he learned from working with Roger Corman.
Because there's this great quote, this great quote that's easy
for you to say, where Lewis Tigue says about Roger

(46:46):
Corman that Roger Corman was really good about getting every
nickel on the screen and how to be expedient as possible,
work very quickly, but also be extremely clever, and even
when your material was exploitative, always having an intelligence an
approach to it. That's what he learns from Corman. And
that's what I feel like is on display here an Alligator.

Speaker 5 (47:05):
A friend of a friend said they're shooting a movie
in la and they need production assistance, and it was Alligator.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
By the way, my research team turned up a couple
of things that absolutely fucking floored me. The first and
both of these have to do with people who worked
on this movie. Who I bet you one thousand dollars
you didn't know worked on this fucking movie. Because one
of the people who worked on this movie was Brian Cranston.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
You goddamn right.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Brian Cranston apparently tweeted after Robert Forrester's death because Robert
Forrester had also worked on Breaking Bad, but they first
met on the set of Alligator. Cranston was a production
assistant for the special effects department.

Speaker 5 (47:49):
We were tasked with filling the hero alligator with packets
of blood and guts. This was going to be the
alligator that blew up at the end. And now if this,
if someone's watching this before they've seen the movie, Oh.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
Well, Cranston was somebody who hoofed it for years. Like
as we've joked, he was a young actor. You can
see for a second and a half in the Mega
Force Atari ad like he was out there working his
ass off. And yeah, the idea that he was a

(48:30):
PA on that film makes total sense to me.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
I said, oh, maybe that's a new path that I
can take. I'm tired of being an extra and I
want to learn something new. So I applied and basically
I was alive and willing, so I was hired. So
I became the assistant to the assistant's assistant. I'm not kidding,

(48:54):
I was. I was that far down the totem pole.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
So Brian Cranston uh has technically then worked for Mega
Force and Alligators. So Brian Cranston is also in a
roundabout retroactive way very important. Took Food Cinema. But the
other person I wanted to mention who worked on this
movie who is uncredited, but his actual credit on the
movie is as the alligator, which means he got inside

(49:22):
the fucking rubber alligator suit for a couple of times.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Man in suit, man in suit, Man in suit.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
Is Caine Hotter. Jason fucking Voorhees at one point is
inside the rubber alligators suit. Come on, yeah, how can
you not love that piece of trivia?

Speaker 3 (49:42):
Now, the question is is when was it? Because is
did Cain Hotter kill Victor Silva?

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Oh? I hope so, oh, I desperately hope that's what happened.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Like it wouldn't that be the part of Hollywood genre
lore That would just be like fuck yeah, kind of
like the you know, only one person's ever been killed
by the Predator, the alien and the Terminator.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
And that's Bill Paxton.

Speaker 3 (50:03):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Here's here's what I hope Cargill. I hope he's in
the rubber suit. In the sequence when the cops are
hunting for the alligator because they now have photographic proof
that it is in fact an alligator, they're hunting the sewers,
so the alligator decides to just bust through the fucking
sidewalk and scare the shit out of these kids playing stickball,
and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why, Hope.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
Yeah, you mean the asshole kids fucking with the cops.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, the asshole they.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
Put the they put the light on top, and they're like,
what we'll walk in here. Everyone in this movie's an asshole.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Yeah, they're all Rizzo from Midnight Cowboy. For some reason,
I don't understand that, but I'll tell you why. Cargil,
I want Kane Hudder to be the alligator in this scene.

Speaker 3 (50:45):
Tell me why.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Because the two main asshole kids in this scene, one
of them is wearing an I'm a Pepper t shirt,
which is fucking love. The other one, a full four
years early, is wearing a red and green striped sweater
that looks identical to the one worn by Frederick Krueger.

(51:08):
And if Kane Hauter is the alligator coming after the
kid in the Freddy Krueger sweater, we officially have a
Freddy versus Jason in nineteen eighty discuss.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
That's pretty rad and Jason barely even existed in nineteen eighty.

Speaker 2 (51:22):
And Freddy didn't in nineteen eighty. I know this is
laying the groundwork. It's put down the horror yeas pre
pubessant horror. Yes, absolutely, that's why I want it to
be kan Hunter in that scene. And that's that's the
like Chef's kiss trailer moment, Like, that's the shit. You
work your whole movie to have a one trailer moment
like that alligator bursting out of the sidewalk. It is beautiful.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
You know what. I know how to get an answer
to this, Well, I'll ask the guys that that no Caine, Yes,
we will find out. I will find out where in
Alligator Kane because that's a great question, because which which
which scene is it? Which scene is it?

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Speaking of kin, I'm going to link this movie to
Citizen Kane, because of course Citizen Kane was the opus
of one mister Orson Wells, who also appeared in a
movie called The Third Man, one of the greatest movies
ever made, one of the greatest film noir has ever made.
And at one point in this movie, and I think
this is again a testament to John Sales and Lewis Tigue,
always approaching whatever they were making with artistry and care

(52:29):
and craft. When they're down in the sewer, somebody spray
painted Harry lime lives in the sewers of Chicago, which
is a direct reference to The Third Man, which feels like, oh,
it's just pretentious. Oh you went to film school. Oh
you know, the most of the movie The Third Man
takes place in sewers, So it's actually a direct reference

(52:50):
to The Third Man, And I fucking love that it's here.
But yeah, all of this to say to get back
to what I was talking about. Ramone, the often malfunctioning
animatron alligator, was later donated to the University of Florida
as a team mascot and made several appearances. So in
the early eighties, if you were to go back and

(53:11):
watch University of Florida football games and you saw a giant,
fake alligator mascot, that's Ramone from the movie Alligator made
appearances before games and during halftime. That fucking rules. Yep,
here's our mascot, Ramone, the animatronic alligator that probably definitely

(53:32):
swallowed Henry silvahole. Let's go touchdown.

Speaker 3 (53:37):
Yeah, there's I mean, as you keep saying, there's a
lot of care put into this movie, there's a lot
of like I love how much track gets laid. Yeah,
Like from the backstory, of Ramone to the how are
we gonna how are we gonna set up our done
done dun at the end of the movie, to hey,
let's let's explain that we how he knows there's a

(53:58):
lot of methane down there, so we know how to
blow up the alligator because we got to blow up
the alligator and we can't just put a you know,
this is a ripoff. We can't just put an air
tank in his mouth and shoot it. We gotta find
Oh and that gets track late, like everything gets laid
out and explained and in ways that feel really authentic

(54:19):
to Sales's voice, to where it feels like these are
character moments, These are you know, complications that are that
that don't feel like they're tied to the end of
the movie. And then when we get to the end
of the movie, the audience is like, Oh, all the
methane down there, Yeah, that'll blow up a gator real good. Yeah,
also blow up a gator real good. Ernest Hemingway's best novel, Ah.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
That's his verse. That's the Florida Man himing Ways version
of the Old Man in the Sea. That is correct
because he's got that gator strap to the boat and
then somebody just blows it up before he gets to
bring it back in. It's a very tragic tale.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
And now now we need we need a junk food
cinema T shirt for Way Floor.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
To me, this is like the This is the nerdiest
Vinn diagram of like my ap English Courses and my
b movie Love Oh Dear God in Heaven. By the way,
this movie does feature I feel like when you want
if you have qualms about certain things in movies. For example,
if you don't like dog death in movies, bill you

(55:23):
and I'm not even talking about this movie because this
movie handles the dog death like you don't really see
any of it, right, But if you're watching a movie
like The Thing, for example, like I don't like dog
death in movies, it bothers me, but I love the thing.
The Thing is like the one movie where I forgive
a very grizly version. Like I've said it before, but

(55:45):
that movie is if you don't like dog death and movies,
that's basically bowouschwitz, like it is the most extreme ugly,
like it's it's very hard to watch, but in the
context of that movie, it's it's forgivable, right, I don't
like kid death in movies. I have a real problem
with it. This movie is to kid death what the

(56:06):
thing is to dog death. This movie has one of
the most traumatic kid deaths I've ever fucking seen. And
it's not even so much the explicitness of seeing the
kid die.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
You're talking about the swimming pool.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
The swimming pool. Yeah, uh yeah, I knew it was coming.
I knew it was coming on this view, and I
was like, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna grip my
teeth and get through it. Because it's these bully kids
who take these younger kid you know, they're at it
looks like they're at a Halloween party. They're dressed like pirates.
He's dressed like, uh, like a baseball player or something like.
He's he's not a pirate, but the older kids are
pirates and like, we're gonna make you walk the plank,

(56:38):
and they're about to they take him on the diving board.
But by this point, the alligator has burst up through
the sidewalk and has escaped somewhere into the city and
he's hiding in swimming pools. So we know this. So
it's a very hitchcocky thing where we know as the
audience that the gator is in a swimming pool somewhere,
So when this kid is blindfolded and pushed out onto
the diving board, these kids don't know the gator is

(57:00):
in there. And the thing that makes it so traumatic
is that the little kid like lifts up the the
blindfold and sees this thing and realizes the other kids don't.
Was like, oh no, no, no, don't push me, don't push it,
and they still push him in like that kid knows
it's coming. And I think that's what makes it so traumatic.
But it's it is the one of the few debts
in the movie, and bring it up for this reason.
It's one of the few deaths in the movie where like,

(57:22):
that kid wasn't an asshole. The other the older kids
were assholes. But that's one of the few debts in
the movie that is really truly an innocent person being
killed by this alligator. Because they go to great links.
Every other victim has like a whole chapter devoted to
why they're an asshole immediately before we see them meeting.
But not just yet.

Speaker 3 (57:42):
No, but but those kids assholes.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Oh, those older kids are assholes.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yes, I would argue that could and argue is the
wrong word. Let me let me walk that back a second.
For me, that scene is emotionally effective. Yeah, and works
for the movie because we've had so much Catharsis to
this movie and this is you know, there are two,
as I've talked about in the past, there are two

(58:06):
types of emotions in a horror movie that we have
when we watch someone die. You know, we have true
terror and we have Catharsis. And when you know you're
it's hard to be if a person is likable, if
we're engaged with them, if we feel sorry for them,
we pity them, We feel bad and scared when they
get killed. When we hate somebody, when they're awful, when

(58:28):
they're stealing people's dogs and selling them to a pharmaceutical company,
we giggle, we laugh, We get that Catharsis like, yeah,
you got a real good and we needed some of
that in this movie because there are so many assholes.
The what bugs me in this movie is the Bow
Auschwitz aspect. It's that one shot where he's talking, He's like, wow,

(58:50):
your dogs are really quiet. He's like, yeah, that's because
we slice their larynxes when they come in. It's it's
good for the job, and then we cut over to
a dog just going back and it's like, oh yeah,
oh that's brutal. It's almost monsters.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
It is almost hilarious how unabashedly arched that scientist's character
is from the pharmaceutical company, because yeah, he says, we
cut their laryings when they first come in, and then
he tells. By the way, the guy that runs the
pet shop in this movie, who is is stealing dogs
and selling them is played by Sidney Lassik from One
Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, And when he's having a

(59:27):
conversation with him, this guy just keeps saying, I need puppies.
I need puppies. Like it reminds me of like the
really arch evil scientist character from like Beethoven with Charles Grodin,
where it's just like you wrote this character to be
a cartoon version of evil, Like he might as well
have a mustache that he's torrily. He's like, I need puppies.
Here you go, pop, I've got a sweet dose of

(59:48):
murder for you.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
I mean, because it's let's go one step. Let's go
one step further and ask the logic question and then
answer the logic question. Yeah, because if he owns a
pet shop and has a rec supply of puppies that
he's selling, why isn't he just selling those.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Puppies because reasons?

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Uh, because he's getting paid for them twice. Because he's
that evil.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Yeah, he's he's basically lowering the overhead. If I'm selling
it's it's like Goodfellas, you know, it doesn't matter if
we steal it and then sell it doesn't matter if
we sell it at a discount, it's all profit.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
If he steals the dogs, then it's one hundred percent profit.

Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
He's That is how dark and evil a fucker. This
guy is just just rancid and wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Which is why, like Betty White and Lake Placid, I'm
rooting for the gator to eat Nebby the nebish, like like,
eat that fucking pet store guy, and definitely eat that
pharmaceutical bitch, like I hate all of these people. And
that's literally what we're doing through the whole movie is
the movie could be divided up into chapters called look
at this asshole, Now, look at this asshole, and then
at the end of every chapter that asshole ends up dead.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
And you just mentioned a movie we haven't talked about,
and that just triggered a whole month we have to do,
which is nineties Jawsknocked.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Offs nin oh, like Man's Best Friend.

Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
And Lake Placid. Yeah, and I think we've already done
Deep Blucy, haven't we.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
We have done Deep Blucy, yes.

Speaker 3 (01:01:09):
Yeah, but we've never done Lake Placid.

Speaker 2 (01:01:11):
Lake Placid was a movie, by the way, that was
written on legal pads long form by the guy who
created Ali McBeal, Like, I I don't know what else
to say, Like that's the starting line of that movie.

Speaker 3 (01:01:25):
Yeah, Yeah, that's a good fucking movie.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
Crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
In terms of great alligator I mean there's a lot
of I will argue, I would argue there's probably more
great alligator movies than there are shark movies. I mean,
it's and I'm not counting crocodile because crocodile's its whole
own ass thing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
And I know a lot of people are screaming at us,
a lot of amateur herpetologists out there on Twitter telling
us Lake planted it with a crocodile and then an alligator. Yeah,
and the and the crocodile and Lake Placid was was
played by Eric Banna, just sheath all your fucking tweets.
Don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
The Incredible Croc, the.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Incredible Croc, which is what my kid wears to school
now on his feet, I think, are the incredible crocs? Yeah?
Why is that a thing? Why did that come come
into fashion? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
I don't I'll tell you because they're fucking cumpy as shit.
Oh no, I've never worn them. I don't own them.
But everyone I know that has them, they're like, dude, dude,
you gotta try him. Once you do, you'll look unfashionable
for the rest of your life. And it's like, I
already look unfashionable.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
I feel like the minute I set I put my
feet into a pair of crocs, I will lose the
last remaining hairs on my head, Like I will go
full Robert Forrester at that point. People just commenting on
the street, like there are literally scenes in this movie
where other cops tell him how he should do his
hair to hide his bald patches. This is like a
lot of effective cop color in this movie. Is the

(01:02:46):
other cops going, yeah, you know, if you if you
combed it down and over to this site, you know,
people wouldn't notice that, you know, like Chicago cops talk
to each other. It's fucking hysterically weird.

Speaker 3 (01:02:56):
After these messages, We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
James, Only you can't say that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Sales Nega for us for You're Atari PCs one of

(01:03:24):
the New Games of the Century from twentieth century five.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
By the way, cargill I mentioned that the score in
this movie definitely is aping Jaws. We were so close
to this being a full on Battle Beyond the Stars
reunion because this was almost scored by James Horner.

Speaker 3 (01:03:44):
Was on a run with these kind of films at
the time. Oh yeah, Humanoids from the Deep followed up
by Battle Beyond the Stars.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Yeah, it was. It was supposed to be scored by
James Horner. He actually wrote a full score for it,
but due to a strike that happened, he couldn't record
the score, so was replaced by another card. So somewhere
out there, written.

Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
Down somewhere out there also written by James Horner.

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
In heath the streets of Chicago. Yeah, there is written
down on paper the James Horner score for Alligator. And
if I ever get my hands on it, I am
finding somebody to perform it and record it. I don't
care what it costs. Money is no object. Holy shit,
do I want to hear the James Horner score.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
It's just two notes, but.

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
You know there would be two big brassy horns like
and it would sound amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
He might have echoe horns at that point. Yeah, there
would be loved the echoey horns. Although it's not in space,
so he may have skipped the echoey Maybe the echoey
horns are only for space and his final movie.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
I would argue that there's another place that horns would
echo Cargill, and that's in a sewer. It would still
fucking work.

Speaker 3 (01:04:58):
Bena Bena.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Also apparently because of this, you know, in addition to
the score that they do have here by Craig Hundley
who was a child actor turned composer, they use cues
from an episode of the Twilight Zone. It's the episode
of the Invaders Invaders with Agnes Moorehead who some of
you may know as Darren's mother in law from Bewitched

(01:05:24):
Samantha's Mom. But it's an episode called the Invaders, and
it's Jerry Goldsmith's music from that episode of the Twilight
Zone and cues from that are used throughout the film,
so I feel like they must have written a new
score in a rush and then patted it out with
literally Jerry Goldsmith's music from this episode of the Twilight Zone.
So it's a little thrown together, is all I'm saying.
In the wake of not getting the Horners score, I

(01:05:46):
feel like some things were thrown together.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
Oh man, I fucking love this movie. This is like
I said, it's it's neck and neck with the car
for being my favorite Jaws knockoff. I just love the
character work in this. When we get to that fucking wedding,
So it turns out that you know that the mayor
in Jaws is a shithead. The mayor in this movie
is like fully in bed with pharmaceutical companies. He's getting

(01:06:11):
cops fired, like he's just a corrupt piece of shit.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
And at one weird ass scene at the barbecue.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Yes, it's a it's the wedding. It's the wedding reception.

Speaker 3 (01:06:22):
No no, no, but I no, no, no, I know it's but
they're over by the barbecue grill. Oh yeah, and he's
he's Barbarie. I mean, we're from Texas. He's not grilling.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
He's barbecuing, right, you met the object, not the event
I got that is correct.

Speaker 3 (01:06:34):
Where they're over there and he's trying to the old
man is trying to flirt with a woman by explaining
his smoking technique for cooking steaks, and the mayor is
trying to seem very interested in a way that is
just so disturbing and dickish and weird.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
He's really hoping that woman will smoke his sausage later.
That's really what it's helping will happen. But yeah, you
got this creepy old dude who runs the pharmaceutical company
played by Dean Jaeger, which sounds like a character from
Pacific Rim but it's not playing slate in this movie.
And then you have the mayor played by Jack Carter,
who are fully in cahoots and they're both greasy, awful people,

(01:07:18):
so of course they're about to die. And when this
fucking alligator comes charging into this wedding, I mean, not
only does the mayor get mauled to death, not only
do waiters and guests get flung around that yard like
wayward frisbees, like you're watching fucking the Flying with Lindezes
or something like they're literally being thrown by this alligator's tale.

(01:07:41):
It's incredible. But then this pharmaceutical ceo gets crushed inside
of his limo, like the alligator just beats the limo
into being completely compacted. It's kind of amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:54):
It is. And also my one disappointment in the whole
movie is in that scene, which is which is it
wasn't John Sales as the driver. Ah really was showing
all these like walk in appearances in all the movies
at this time and was just always like there and
you know, like he's the in Piranha, he's the the

(01:08:15):
the military guy who gets flashed to be you know,
knocked out so that they could escape. And that was
the big sunglasses guy who just like gets to gafaw
at the screen as he watches n alligator eat a
guy and slam the guy into the fucking car. And
that was the perfect spot for John Sales to be
and he just wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
And by the way, we mentioned it once already, but
just to just to really hit home on Henry Silva's
death in this movie, well, he's recruiting what he calls
local guides to show him around this neighborhood in Chicago.
Let's just say it must be the South shot of Chicago.
The way he's the way he's discussing being in the
wilderness and so on and so forth, I guess. But

(01:08:56):
they lead him down this alley where he's like stalking
this thing, and then it gets a hold of him
and we just see we see this fucking animatronic alligator
start to slowly swallow Henry Silva. Like this gator is
Joey Chestnut on Coney Island on July fourth, and he
has just taking those that Henry Silva is the Glizzy

(01:09:18):
that he's taking down. And it's fucking incredible, Like exit
the movie, Henry Silva, thank you for being here. That's
a wrap on Silva. It's a pretty fucking fantastic. It
might be even more gruesome than Quinn's death and Jaws.

Speaker 3 (01:09:35):
Yeah, I mean, and it's it's particularly like his his
very short window in this movie. You know, as he
comes in, he's an asshole. He gets told this thing
is bigger than you think and it's very dangerous. Well,
you know, if I don't have a chance to dying today,
what fun is there? Well then he dies, screaming as
his own rifle doesn't miss fires as the guy trying

(01:09:58):
to save him after a bunch of weird casual racism. Yeah,
that whole scene, Like everything about Henry Silva is just
like he's like, ah, the concrete jungle. We're in the jungle. Okay, Chief,
you're the king of the tribe. Okay, you know, and
we're like, we get it, we get it, you're racist.
We just give us our money and get eaten by
the alligator. Please, we get it, you're racist.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
I believe it is another of the books written by
Florida Man version of Ernest Hemingway.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Jesus right, one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Of those books is we get it, you're racist. It's
it's not for whom the belt.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
All No, it's called the Sun's also racist. My son's
also racist by Florida Man.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
By Ernest Hemming and Hawing, I believe is the Florida
Man version. Oh, I want that to be a thing
so bad, so badly, I want it to be a thing.
And then yeah, when we finally blow up this alligator
with all of the gas and the sewers and it's
a spectacular explosion, fan fucking tastic. We can't just end
the movie there. We can't just pull the manhole cover

(01:11:04):
and fade to black. We have to have a sequel
setup where we just see another baby alligator get deposited
into the sewer. By the way, there was an actual
sequel to this movie. It's Alligator to the Mutation, made
in nineteen ninety one, starring Joseph Bologna and Richard Lynch.
I have not seen this, but I have heard that

(01:11:26):
it is spectacularly terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
I thought it clearly is because I thought you were
fucking kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
No. I owned this movie on VHS for a very
long time, but I never fucking watched it, and I
still have not seen it. And yeah, I've heard it's
pretty fucking terrible.

Speaker 3 (01:11:41):
Alligator to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
The Mutation, get out of here. Before we get out
of here, I just want to you know, we don't always,
as much as we revere the Man, as much as
he is one of the most influential voices in film criticism,
we don't always agree with Roger Ebert, and I feel
like his review of this movie was particularly unfairly harsh.
He did suggest in his review for the Chicago Sun

(01:12:05):
Times that it would be best to flush this movie
down the toilet. To see if it also grows into
something big and fearsome, and I just don't think that's fair.
And it's funny too, because contrarily, in the New York Times,
Vincent can be another very important voice in film criticism.
He actually gave the film a mostly positive review. He
said it was it's suspense is frequently as genuine as

(01:12:29):
its wit and its fond awareness of cliches. It uses
like he maybe a little bit tongue in cheek, but
still very complimentary of the movie. But Roger Ebert man,
he did not care for this movie at all.

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:12:41):
Yeah, I feel like there was a period that he
walked back. But there was a period of time where
Halloween and Alien broke Roger Ebert where they were just
so masterful, yes, so good, so genre and junkie and
the type the things that they had to still apologize for,

(01:13:02):
like being into because like you know, outer space monster
movies and you know, with guys in ribber suits and
you know, fucking alligators in the sewer or what were
you know, the Slashers wasn't quite you know, it was
so good that that's what genre is now. And you
could hear him talk about that at the time in reviews,

(01:13:23):
and he's like, with movies like Halloween out there in Alien,
you know, the bar has been raised, and anything that
was under the bar, he just shoult on, including the thing,
you know. And then years later he would walk a
lot of these reviews back. I feel like he was
looking he did not realize that those were two masterpieces,
that everything just went right for those movies, and those

(01:13:45):
movies were made by absolute modern, fucking masters, and judging
every other film around them was just kind of fucking
unfair to compare them so harshly.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
It's true. I think that's that's an entirely app theory.
Alligator not do particularly well in the US and Canada,
but it was a big hit internationally and it made
a boatload of money. ABC actually paid three million dollars
for the TV rights to the movie, so it made money.
It just didn't make money in the initial run state side,
but it did end up making money, probably what explains

(01:14:19):
the years later sequel. But yeah, this is this is
a movie that we have talked about for years. This
is a movie that was very much a part of
the cacophony of drunken b movie appreciation that ended up
becoming junk food cinema. Like, I'm so happy we got
to talk about this movie. I feel like, if you
haven't seen it, this is when you absolutely have to

(01:14:41):
track down. It's just a fantastic piece of a B cinema,
but elevated by the people making it really giving a
shit and I very much appreciate that about it. And
it's just so much fun and Robert Forrester is so good,
and yeah, this is a This is a classic around
the halls of junk food cinema for a fucking reason.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Absolutely, It's just it's one of the big five. We
love it too, Like.

Speaker 5 (01:15:04):
Comes up through the sidewalk What I Almost Died.

Speaker 2 (01:15:12):
Alligator rated r And that brings us to the junk
food pairing. And I am gonna go with a giant
gummy alligator. A lot of times when you buy, you know,
gummy shaped animals, the big ones that you can buy
the animals usually an alligator. And the reason I'm going
with that one specifically is in what I think is
his most cynical aspect of the screenplay. As soon as

(01:15:37):
people start getting eaten by alligators in Chicago, you have
this like weird cottage industry that immediately springs up all
these people that start selling stuffed alligators and rubber alligators
and selling baby alligators again all over the city. They're
trying to cash in on the media hype, right and
it feels very callous and very craven. But at the
same time, its inclusion in this movie feels like John

(01:16:00):
Sale saying something about the nature of people and how
tragedy doesn't always bring out the best in people, and
I do appreciate that. But the rubber alligators that these
people would carry around on these sandwich boards trying to
sell at the site of fucking bodies being recovered, reminded
me very much of the gummy alligators of my youth,
which is why I went with this.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Right on, I went slightly different Country Boy. Gator alligator nuggets.
Oh nothing goes with a movie where you blow up
gator like good gator nuggets. And if you've never had
gator nuggets, you need to get yourself to the South
and get yourself some gaiteror nuggets because the chicken they

(01:16:43):
taste like fucking chicken. It's delicious. They're chicken nuggets, but
they're made of gator. And think about sitting down and
watching a movie with some chicken nugs, but they're alligator
nuggets and you're watching alligator that's the way to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
I like, you know, every time I go to New Orleans,
which I go there a lot, I always try to
get some fried alligator bites and they're usually served with
this great like rimolade sauce. So fucking good. Incredible as is.
By the way, speaking of incredible, just before we get
out of here, I do want to mention there is
some stunt work in this movie. There are multiple cars
that explode in this movie. There is a boat that

(01:17:18):
ramps off the back of an alligator, crashes and then explodes.
They spent some fucking money on the stunts in this movie,
and it's just spectacular. I really have to applaud the
second unit work in this movie.

Speaker 3 (01:17:31):
Yeah, if there's a I meant to mention that during
the podcast. But yeah, if there's a vehicle in this movie,
there's a good chance it's gonna blow up. Oh yeah,
Is it a car gonna blow up? Is it a
boat gonna blow up?

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
That?

Speaker 3 (01:17:45):
Does it make sense? It blows up, It doesn't matter,
blows up, blows up real good.

Speaker 2 (01:17:48):
There's one car that explodes that you can't even blame
the alligator for.

Speaker 3 (01:17:53):
This is the car accident.

Speaker 2 (01:17:54):
The might of the explosion that destroys the alligator, which
was not initiated by the alligator, ends up blowing up
a car that's nearby the manhole where the bomb was.
So so there's just a car that's parked that blows
up because they use too much dynamite to kill this
fucking alligator.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
And that's what happens when you adapt in Ernest Hemingway.

Speaker 2 (01:18:15):
Now, yes, there will be many many explosions. The guy
liked his fireworks. I don't know what to tell you.
Thank you so much for venturing into the sewers with
us to talk about Alligator, a very important film to
this podcast. If you would like more of this podcast,
you can find us on your favorite podcast or follow
us on social media. And if you really liked the show.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
I mean you really liked the show.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
If you like it as much as I love the
idea of English classes teaching the works of Florida Man
Ernest Hemingway, you can go to Patreon dot com slash
jeenfits in too financially support the show. Cargio Where can
people find you on the interwebs.

Speaker 3 (01:18:46):
You can find me on Blue Sky at c Robertcargill
dot Blue Sky dot Social. You can find me appearing
in a book coming out now. Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
The book is called My Son's Also Racists by Florida
man Ernest Dimmingway.

Speaker 3 (01:19:03):
The End of the World as we Know It, New
Tales from the Stand by Stephen King. Just a bunch
of us writers were given carte blanche to go ahead
and tell our own story in the stand universe, and
I'm really proud of mine. I just got the book.
The stories I'm ringing are really fucking good. You're gonna
dig it. You can also find me in Haunted Reels,
another anthology, this one of horror filmmakers, including like the

(01:19:24):
likes of Mike Flanagan, and I'm really proud of that
story as well. You can find both of those wherever
you get your books. And look forward to Black Phone
two coming out this October. We're very proud of that movie.
We've finally gotten it to the we're at we're at
the finish line, and we're just very proud of it.
So get ready to start hearing about that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:47):
So that's gonna do it for junk food cinema until
next week. See you later, alligator.

Speaker 4 (01:19:51):
We're to change the moment slam to depend on that
swam with us on.

Speaker 3 (01:19:58):
Gat a moment in that swarm like a blow of
his hand. But what's our bar, don't smoke is in
the okeepon dope.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
The sheriff's out there stooping the brown to shut that
business down.

Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
And let's desup.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
He