June Hackmonth: The Birdcage

As June Hackmonth continues, Brian and Cargill invite you to join their family and have an absolutely fabulous farcical time in The Birdcage!

Don't be afraid of our natural heat.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm kinda like this the doast.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
All right, this is Dick Miller.

Speaker 3 (00:23):
If you're listening to junk food cinema.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Who are these guys?

Speaker 4 (00:44):
When the schneckin beckons it's time for joke food cinema,
brought to you by how about those dolphins dot com?

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Man com dot com dot We are family.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
This is, of course, the weekly cult exploitation filmcast. Is
so good.

Speaker 4 (01:00):
He just has to be fattening. I'm your host, Brian Salisburn.
I'm joined, as per usual by my friend and co host.
He is a novelist, he is a screenwriter, a lieutenant
of Mega Force.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
He's a fan of Fussy, Fussy, Fussy.

Speaker 4 (01:10):
Marta Graham, Marta Graham, Marta Graham and Twila Twila, Twila,
Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, Michael Kidd, and Madonna Madonna, Madonna.
But he keeps it all inside. Mister c Robert Cargo, Hi,
how's it going, man?

Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's it's it's it's very cagy in here.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
I am so excited that we are birds of a
feather on this movie this week.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Are you so excited? Can you just not hide it?

Speaker 1 (01:36):
I'm about to. I think I like it.

Speaker 4 (01:39):
I think how you like what this show is, and
if you do, you can find eleven years of this
shit on your favorite podcast, or you can follow the
show on social media.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
And if you really like the show.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I mean you really like the show.

Speaker 4 (01:52):
You like it as much as I don't want to
be the only girl not dancing, you can go to
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as a dollar episode. You can financially support the show,
and we greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
As we continue June Hack Month.

Speaker 5 (02:06):
Virginia has amazing foliage, although I do think that the
folage in Ohio is underrated. The Hills, the Mountains, talk
about your purple Mountains, majesty Man.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
For a second week in a row, we're covering a
gene Hackman comedy.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
It's a gene Haha, a scream Hackman.

Speaker 4 (02:26):
Luckily he's not a gene Hackey comedian, as he proves
yet again in The bird Cage.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
Oranges everywhere are flogging to the bird Cage. What the
number one smash hit in America? And the Falling Down
the funniest comedy you'll see this year. Time Magazine says,
a very funny film Twila Lean and Williams are two
of the world's most gifted comics. And Joe Siega Raves

(02:54):
get the flock on over to a theater. This is
one funny movie.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
That's just what russelly Maw said the Bird to Mike
Nichols film, lead it up, I'll play more than that.
We're covering.

Speaker 6 (03:06):
This.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
This is what we're covering a Mike Nichols movie.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
We're covering a Mike Nichols movie, and we're covering the
bird Cage in Pride Month. I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
I mean, there's literally two two Mike Nichols movies we
might cover, and this is one of them. The only
other one would possibly be Day of the Dolphin, and
that is you know, apart from that, Mike Nichols is
one of those Oscar winning prestige directors whose movies, you know,
redefined eras. Even in his later years, his movies were

(03:37):
still very interesting and beloved, very very few flops or
low rated movies in his filmography. Of course, you know
the one, two three Punch of Who's Afraid of Virginia
wol followed by The Graduate, followed by Catch twenty two,
and that was just his sixties in the nineteen seventy

(03:59):
likey was a legend, and then in nineteen ninety six
made what is, by the way, never properly mentioned, but
one of the greatest remakes of all time.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
You know, there's part of me that says we shouldn't
cover Day of the Dolphin, But there's another, much bigger,
much louder part of me that says, what if we
did a Day of the Dolphin incredible Mister Limpet double
feature episode, because that would be great.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
But yeah, we're talking. We're talking The Bird Cage. Now.
This is one of those one of those movies that
has aged weirdly and is also is also functionally different
than most people remember it, which I think I will say.
I think that's one of the most interesting things about

(04:48):
The Bird Cage is if you were to ask anyone
who was around in the nineties what the plot of
The Bird Cage is, they would tell you the plot
of the last forty minutes of the movie, not the
first a eighty minutes of the movie. Because the movie,
everybody remembers it being about this awkward dinner between two
very different families, and it's like, yeah, that's the third

(05:09):
act of the movie.

Speaker 4 (05:11):
It's crazy cargo that we're including this in Gene hack Month,
and not a single person would be like, why are
you including that in June hack Month? Right, And yet
at the same time, the meat of Gene Hackman's role
in this movie does not begin until forty minutes from
the end of the film.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
No, No, he's he is just kind of a ticking
time bomb until then. He's the mcguffin of the movie
more than he is a full character until forty minutes
of the end of the movie. And that's what I
find so fascinating about rewatching this movie. I mean, first
of all, it's great. It is a remake of Lakay

(05:47):
j Alia Fay's, a famous French play that was adapted
into a series of films, and you know was then
remade in the nineties at just the right time. Because
what you would a lot of you need to really
know that weren't there at the time, or that were
too young at the time, was this was the point

(06:09):
in the mid nineties where uh the mainstream where gen
X really got behind uh the LGBT movement. It was
LGBT at the time.

Speaker 7 (06:21):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
In fact, people were still arguing whether there was should
the t should be involved. This is how back, how
far back this was, and uh there gen X was
just starting to push that there needs to be acceptance
of these communities, and of course, you know, the older
liberal set was like, yeah, it's about time, let's put
that into the media. And then for a few years

(06:42):
in ninety five, ninety six, ninety seven, ninety eight, you
really get this big push to start doing these firsts
about you know, gay relationships in mainstream entertainment. There had
been stuff about you know, being gay in television and
films previously, but always it was some big, you know,
it was a big dramatic thing. It was never hey,

(07:06):
this is normal, and the plot of the movie is
the conservatives just need to get over how normal this is.
Like that's that was not something that was in the
mainstream at the same time. Something from you know, the
indie film set was it was notorious at the time
that gay cinema sucked, Like there were just very few

(07:27):
great gay movies. You had Jeffrey and you had Priest,
and that was it until ninety six, where all of
a sudden, we've got bird Cage, We've got Brazilla, Queen
of the Desert and we start to see this explosion
of great queer cinema, and it was there was a
sense of elation that finally we're getting these really good

(07:47):
gay movies that we weren't able to get before because
for various reasons, people wouldn't put money behind movies that
they didn't quite believe it. And here in the mid
nineties that started to change, and we get the American
version of Lakeeje La Flies.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
Which took a while to bring to the screen. Oh yes,
for those of you who don't know, Lakaja Foe like.
The original stage play was put on in nineteen seventy
three in France. It was written by Jean Poure, and
then in nineteen seventy eight there was the French film adaptation,
which was co written by Francis Weber, who, if you

(08:26):
don't know Francis Veber, Francis Webber is responsible for some
of the more bizarre and or awful comedies of the eighties,
as well as a lot of great French movies that
would be remade in America to various degrees of success.
But for example, Francis Webber is partially responsible for Richard
Pryor's The Toy so there's that. So there sure is that.

(08:50):
But in the early eighties, they wanted to make an
American version of the play for Broadway. So they were
going to americanize the play for Broadway and it was
going to be directed by Mike Nichols. Mike Nichols was
actually hired. He was hired to direct by producer Alan Carr,
and that version of the story was going to be
set in New Orleans entitled The Queen of Basin Street.

(09:13):
But then car brought in a new production team to
co produce and at that point, Mike Nichols, the composer
Maury Yeston, and choreographer Tommy Toon were all fired off
of that production. So that's Mike nichols first shot at
adapting Lakajha Foe that goes by the Wayside.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
And then in the mid eighties, this is what's the
most insane about this. In the mid eighties, they were
going to do a film version. They were going to
do an American film remake of Lakajha Foe starring Frank
Sinatra and Dudley Moore. What I want to just say
that one more time, Frank Sinatra and Dudley Moore, one
of those two people was definitely not interested. And can

(09:54):
you guess who it was?

Speaker 2 (09:56):
Was it the person sitting on a rainbow?

Speaker 1 (09:57):
It was Dudley Moore. I'm not even fucking kidding. Sinatra
was in It was nothing. Mothers like no legs. It
doesn't sound like my cup of tea unless this vocated
or whatever the.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Fuck I mean. These are some very fairly sober characters, so.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's very true. That is very true.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
Uh, but put a pin in that Sinatra thing, because
I'm gonna I'm gonna bring that back around at the
end of the episode. But now we're into the early
nineties or sorry, the mid nineties, and we're back with
Mike Nichols helming an American remake on film of the
of Lakaja Folk. But it is no longer called The
Queen of Basin Street because Nichols, as part of his

(10:35):
research for this movie, along with Elaine May and the
production designer on this film, who by the way, is
bo Welch, they went to drag shows in Chicago and Savannah, Georgia,
and then bo Welch suggests, Hey, let's go to this
drag show in South Beach, And when Mike Nichols sees
that show, he decides to change the film setting from
New Orleans to South Beach, and now it's called The Birdcage.

(10:56):
Robin Williams is cast with Steve Martin, and the insane
part of this is Steve Martin is actually cast in
the role of Armand that Robin Williams would end up playing,
and Robin Williams was cast in the role of Albert
that would be played by Nathan Lane. Sergeant Bill Coe
runs over, Steve Martin has to depart the project. Robin

(11:20):
Williams had just played Missus Doubtfire for Chris Columbus and went,
you know what, I've kind of already done drag and
I think the more interesting challenge as a performer would
be to play the more subdued character. So he switches roles,
he moves over to play Armand and now they've got
to cast the role of Albert. Luckily, while he was

(11:41):
making Missus Doubtfire, there was an actor, a stage actor
from New York, very well known on Broadway but still
primarily a stage actor, who had auditioned for the role
of Robin Williams gay brother who does all the makeup
in Missus doubtfire. That role of course ends up going
to Harvey Fierstein.

Speaker 1 (12:00):
But Robbie, I mean, it was my role to play,
and anyone else gets in my way, I'll fucking kill him.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
But Robin Williams remembers this actor that came in and
read for that role and did such an amazing job
that he told that actor we're gonna work together again.
And that actor, of course is Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane again,
who at this point is doing a lot of a
Broadway work on the stage. So, Mike Nichols and Elaine May,
we need to talk about Elaine May for just a

(12:29):
fucking second here. Elaine May is an incredible screenwriter and
a damn good director who wrote a number of really
interesting screenplays, things like Heaven Can Wait. She wrote Mikey
and Nicky, which she ends up directing, and she's uncredited
on Tutsie. She was also one of the great script

(12:51):
doctors of Hollywood. She did work on Red's and Dick Tracy,
both for Warren Batty. She did script doctoring on Labyrinth,
Ghostbusters Two, What About Wolf, Dangerous Minds, Like, the list
goes on and on and on. Of all of these
projects that she serves as a script doctor on and
she worked with Mike Nichols a lot. In fact, the
two of them, because of the amount of times they
work together in their efficiency, they got nicknamed the world's

(13:13):
fastest humans, and they had actually had a falling out
that didn't get reconciled until they came together to work
on this movie. But Elaine May is unfortunately most notable
because she directed Ishtar, which completely unfairly tanked her career.
But she is a very fascinating figure in this whole
story because she is one of the writers on this movie,

(13:35):
and she's the one that she brings a lot of
life and energy into this movie and changes a few
things from the original that makes it distinctly you know,
this version of it. And I think that's great. But
it's at this point that they're like, Okay, Nathan, we
want you to play this role. The problem is, Nathan
Lane has just been given a leading role in a
Broadway revival of a funny thing happened on the Way

(13:56):
to the Forum that they're literally building around him Polonius
as Polonius. Yes, he's gonna be playing this character. They
built the entire production around him, and he says, you know, hey,
I would love to do it, but unfortunately, you know,
I can't. So when Robin Williams hears about that, he
starts to think, ah, maybe I don't want to do this,
And so they start thinking about people to replace Robin Williams,

(14:18):
and one of the names that come up with is
Kevin Klein.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
So Mike Nichols is relentless.

Speaker 4 (14:23):
Mike Nichols keeps reaching out to Nathan Lane, what do
you think about this person for the other role?

Speaker 1 (14:27):
What do you think about this?

Speaker 4 (14:29):
One of the names Heaths apparently throws out is Robert
Redford as the armand character, which is crazy. But the
whole time, Nathan Lane's like, no, listen, it's not that
I don't want to do the movie. It's that I
literally cannot im committed to. A funny thing happened on
the way to the form. Maybe you want to call
the producer and see if there's something you could do.
So Mike Nichols reaches out to the producer, Scott Ruden.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Scott Pruden famously, calm, respectful, Scott Ruden.

Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yeah, the guy that makes Joel Silver look completely even keeled.
Scott Ruden kind of person and I don't know what
Mike Nichols did, but evidently Scott Ruden calls Nathan Lane
and says, you really want to do this movie?

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Huh? And he's like yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
So they delayed starting on a Funny Thing Happened on
the Way to the Forum for a whole year so
that Nathan Lane can be in The Bird Cage. I
feel like, deep down Scott Ruden knew that this movie
was going to be a success, and sure enough, waiting
a year was a huge benefit to that production because
by the time the production gets on Broadway, they can

(15:31):
say starring Nathan Lande from the incredibly successful The Bird.

Speaker 2 (15:35):
Cage, Yeah, no, that is a legend That version of
a Funny Thing happened is a legendary version. It was
apparently amazing, and yeah, the thing is is what you
need to keep in mind, Like Nathan Lane is one
of those guys who's always felt like he's been around
and when he was the voice of Timone in The

(15:58):
Lion King, he was not a known entity. No Like
he'd acted but only in bit parts on shows. He
had never been a lead. So casting him in The
Lion King was casting him on his talent and then
he's coming into that. You know, he shows up in
as I was talking about earlier, Jeffrey, you know, for
a brief uh, you know, for a brief uh section

(16:21):
of that film, with one of my favorite lines of
that movie, I am a Catholic priest historically that falls
somewhere between florist and ultar boy. It's great, It's a
whole great bit. But yeah, the bird Cage is what
blew him up and turned him into the megastar that

(16:42):
he would go on to be for the rest of
the next, you know, decade of his career. And he's
had a weird curt because he blew up after this,
and he was everywhere and shows up in everything, and
then there just comes a point where everyone just, I guess,
kind of got done with him. And I've heard, you know,
behind the scenes that he can sometimes be difficult to

(17:04):
work with. I know other people who know him personally
who say he's a wonderful human being. So I don't
know where this falls. But for some reason, after that
like ten year stint of being like one of the
biggest people in stage and on screen, he just kind
of fell back into doing supporting roles. But this movie
blew him the fuck up.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
And the coda to this story is that Nathan Lane
ends up winning his first Tony for his performance in
that production of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way
to the Forum. And I would say that I think
the drop off ten years after this might be because
he decided, I'm gonna take this role in this new
Broadway show called What's.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
The Producers or something? Yeah, and then literally go on
to have the biggest show in the history of Broadway. Yeah,
and you know what, God bless him for.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
It, which they turned into a film. And about that
the better.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
It's so insane to me that a musical that good
could have a movie that's that not so good. But anyway, yeah,
all of this to say, Nathan.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Lane is phenomenal in this movie.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
It's the kind of performance in the kind of hit
film that you don't question for a moment why he's
still a household name, why he had this huge career
after this, And it's just, you know, the reactions that
he has to people, the physical choices he makes, just
like the little things he's doing, and the way he
slips into and inhabits multiple personas that given moments in

(18:30):
this movie. It is Chef's Kiss, And I mean, honestly,
Nathan Lane coming in and stealing platters full of scenes
from Robin Williams in nineteen ninety six is nothing short
of astonishing.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Oh, Robin Williams and Gene Hackman, and it's Robin Williams
falling on his tricks. Like you mentioned, the whole Fossey
Posse posse thing is that is a long running gag
of his. Yes, and you know he's going he is
going all out at times, but yeah, it Nathan Lane
is going bigger, which I think really worked for Williams
because it allowed Williams at times to be big, but

(19:05):
to shrink into a slightly less big version of what
he was doing, to make him seem much more sane
and rational, despite also still going big and getting a
bunch of laps on his own.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
I think at his heart, we'll talk more about this,
but I think at his heart, Robin Williams was always
really a dramatic actor. I think his sensitivity and his
tenderness and his emotional depth made him perfect for playing
dramatic roles, and that he could just you know, he
was just also one of the most fiercely boldly comedic

(19:40):
improvisers I've ever fucking seen. And you know, a guy
that can really just riff for days and a guy
whose energy is unmatched and unparalleled. And I get that,
but I really think. I mean, when you look at
his earliest film role, it's pop by the Sailor Man,
and it's like, yeah, that's a comedy, that's a musical,
but that also has some of the the tenderest, most

(20:00):
heartbreaking moments you will ever see in a movie based
on a fucking comic strip. Like it's just like, that's
just who Robin Williams is. That's the kind of sensitive
artist that he always was, and in this movie he
wanted to be able to explore that, like and he
has plenty of comedic charisma in this movie. He has,
like you said, those moments to go big, but I
think the real challenge was like finding finding the real

(20:24):
love in this story, and he did, and he does
it masterfully. And that gives Nathan Lane this platform to
be the larger than life character to really explore the
space and go big, and he's incredible at it.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
And it's it's also.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Interesting to note that at this point in his life,
Nathan Lane is gay but is not out about it.
So I actually grew up like this. Well, I'm gonna
talk about how this movie was really really important to me.
But I grew up thinking that Nathan Lane was straight
and literally thinking pretty much until I was an adult

(20:58):
that man, he is a really great because he convinced
me that he was he was gay in this movie,
and it turns out he really was and just wasn't
out about it.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
After these messages, we'll be right back.

Speaker 7 (21:09):
I'd have to kiss that.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
We'd better work fast.

Speaker 7 (21:13):
The plan is ready. Just call me old cap Old.
A con is set.

Speaker 6 (21:20):
But for this team, Hey, mom, not even practice makes perfect.

Speaker 7 (21:25):
Gross. Do you have any idea how much evere you
people need?

Speaker 6 (21:30):
Critics are calling Heartbreakers flat out funny. Ebert and Roeper
give it two thoms up the funniest comedy of the
year fake, starring Sigourney Weaver, Jennifer Love, Hewitt, ray Leota,
Jason Lee, and Gene Hackman.

Speaker 7 (21:48):
He doesn't look so bad, yeahs. Liver spots are positively glowing.

Speaker 6 (21:53):
Heartbreakers Wow now on VHS edition DVD.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Mike Nichols has five rules for filmmaking. The Five Rules
cue the dual lipa music. One, the careful application of
terror is an important form of communication. Two, anything worth
fighting for is worth fighting dirty for it. Three there's
absolutely no substitute for genuine lack of preparation. Four If

(22:26):
you think there's good in everybody, you haven't met everybody.
And five friends may come and go, but enemies will
certainly become studio heads. That's apparently Mike Nichols five rules film.
And honestly, from my limited exposure to his work, Mike
Nichols strikes me as a very sensitive but boldly subversive director.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Oh yeah, Like when I start.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Looking at what his movies are about, I mean, The
Graduate is a film that challenges the entire convention of
marriage and America. It challenges the idea of what a
romantic comedy is and what those endings are, and like
just so much like that that movie. The reason the
ending of that movie has talked about still to this
day is that's not how a romance is supposed to end.

(23:12):
In nineteen sixty seven, when we walk out of a
movie theater.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
No it's not. Oh man, I love that final shot.

Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, where it's just like yay, we did it, we
did oh god, we did it. Like it just you
just watch you watch the high where off like it's
just it's an incredible ending. And then you know, of course,
who's afraid of Virginia Wolf? His adaptation of that even
more violently is about challenging the conventions of marriage in America,
and that was his debut fucking film. But I mean

(23:42):
when you look at he's told stories about women with
ovarian cancer, He's told stories about women who have been
targeted by energy corporations and male corporate culture's. He's big
movies about dolphins abused by the military. He's taken on
substance abuse, casual violence, mental illness multiple times, delved in
with great care and compassion into the wear wolves, of course,

(24:04):
into the LGBTQ topics.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
And he even.

Speaker 4 (24:07):
Considers his adaptation of Angels in America for HBO to
be his career's crowning achievement. I mean that strikes me
as a filmmaker who is definitely about challenging convention and
being subversive.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I mean, that's why I led with him at the beginning.
You know, this is this is somebody who was pushing boundaries,
you know, for decades and did a lot of great
stuff and and and subversive stuff like this, Like it's
nineteen ninety six and he's making a film in which ostensibly,

(24:39):
ostensibly the villains of this movie villains if you will,
are you know, a conservative conservative politician and his wife.
I have opinions on that. One of the things that
has aged interestingly with this movie is my view on
this movie has changed wildly in certain respects. But it is, uh,

(25:05):
you know, it is a movie that is.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
That because of your recovery program, No, okay, curious as
a recovering Republican.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
I just wanted to know if that was part of.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
The as a as a recovering Catholic. No, no, no, no,
it's it's just the opposite.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
It's but.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Not just the opposite, but it's it's very different. But no,
the the whole premise of this movie is that the
conservatives need to get over their shit and just accept
that this is a very real family. Like that's the
premise of the movie. The movie is very much there's
nothing weird about us. What's weird is having to learn
to be like them, and that the comedy stems from

(25:45):
these people trying to be who they aren't and seeing
that it's not easy to act straight that you know,
it's not some normal passive thing that everybody has baked
into us and that you know, becoming gay turns that
into something different. It's a hole, radically different way of thinking.
And that's a very subversive idea in the mid nineties

(26:10):
to come at audiences with, and especially to do it
in such a way that audiences embraced it and lapped
it up and loved it. Because this was not a
controversial fucking movie. This movie was a This was a big,
you know, funny popcorn movie of nineteen ninety six, and
people just loved it despite the very subversive premise.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
I think today they would call this a four quadrant hit.
Like this movie it it's really interesting to think about
the fact. And we're going to talk about some of
the criticism on both sides for this movie, but it's
really interesting to think about it. This time, a lot
of gay cinema was either you know, these these quirky

(26:54):
sort of comedies that didn't land, you know, they didn't
land like Jeffrey or Too Long Fu or Priscilla Quin
of the Desert.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Well, those who happened this, you know, this is that
same year.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah, that's what I mean at this time.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Yeah, literally, And so like you've got comedies that are
you know, like movies that you know, people like us
definitely appreciate, but weren't necessarily big hits with the mainstream,
or the hits that are big with the mainstream are
these dour, bleak sort of dramas in which the gay
community is constantly under the thumb.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Of the fear of AIDS.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
Which is not to say that that's not a genuine
concern and a genuine problem, but literally, can you imagine
that you are, you know, a gay moviegoer at this time,
and you go to the movies and it's like, oh,
here I am being reminded once again that I could
potentially die of aides. Like it was just not the
greatest time for gay cinema. As we've mentioned, So a
movie like this comes out, a comedy like this comes

(27:51):
out that not only has subversive ideas, not only is
presenting gay culture in you know, a very positive light,
but that movie ends up making I did the math,
adjusted for inflation, three hundred and eighty million dollars, mm hmm,
what like that is crazy?

Speaker 2 (28:10):
Oh yeah, no, it was huge. Like there was no
getting away from this movie at.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
That time, just because we've been rambling on.

Speaker 4 (28:18):
And just in case you haven't seen or heard of
The Bird Cage, this is a comedy about a cabaret owner,
a gay cabaret owner, and his drag queen companion, and
they are basically pretending to be straight for a night
because their son and his new fiance are coming to
dinner with the fiance's parents, who happened to be very
right wing conservative. In fact, the father is a conservative senator.

(28:41):
And so it's this, I mean, it's a farce. And
that's what I love about this movie because I have
a soft spot in my heart for you know, this
kind of this kind of open door farce. It's just
you know, it's it's it's not hard to see that
this was a play first, Like it's very classically structured.

Speaker 1 (28:59):
It's very stagey.

Speaker 4 (29:00):
Which is a big like, it's it's a cat nip
for me in all genres, Like if your movie feels
like a stage play, I'm gonna watch it and I'm
gonna love it, but especially if it's a farce. I mean,
farce usually is the kind of comedy where you have
different webs of deception, you have people pretending to be things.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
They're not.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
All these spinning plates of multiple facades, people coming in
and out, and in opportune times we're having to build
lie upon lie to keep the facade going and then
eventually everything comes crashing down. That's what a farce is,
and that's my favorite type of comedy. And when you
add to it that this feels very stagy and theatrical.
It's absolutely my cup of tea.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
Sidebar, have we covered a funny thing happened on the
way to the forum yet?

Speaker 4 (29:47):
We have not covered a funny thing happened on the
way to the forum. But a funny thing is Cargo.
We're gonna cover a funny thing happen on the way
to the forum.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, yeah, take a drink, Juggieads. That's literally my favorite
musical in history. We have to cover that one. But
speaking of farses, that is that's for those of you
that have never seen a funny thing happen. It is.
It is quite literally a distillation of three Greek farcees
woven together into one movie or one stage play, you know,

(30:14):
musical that was turned into a movie.

Speaker 4 (30:16):
Sidebar within the sidebar, so side seption the song that
Christine Baranski and Robin Williams are dancing to in her
office is an excised song from a funny thing happened on.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
The way to the Forum.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
I was not aware of that.

Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, it's literally a song that got caught out of
that musical, Like I love that. They they of course
they would know that, and of course they would have
choreography to that.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's got to be a song that was meant for
hero and the prostitute, more than likely the virgin.

Speaker 7 (30:55):
Disting stargirl stargrove.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
And this has been two straight dudes talk theater.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
Oh my god, h I'm gonna talk about the star
power and then we're gonna get into some theater kids. Shit,
don't you fucking worry about it. Robin Williams in this
movie one of the funniest human beings who ever lived,
one of the most gifted improvisers, fearless physical comedians I've
ever seen. But what I what I've been presented with
again and again over the years since his tragic passing,

(31:24):
is how genuine, how kind, how gentle, and how deeply
sensitive an artist he really was, and how you know,
kind and genuine a person he really was, You know,
He did things like he paid for Christopher Reeves physical
therapy after his accident because you know, they had been
roommates at Juilliard.

Speaker 2 (31:42):
He was, Oh, he was the first person to go
visit at the hospital.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Yeah, the hospital, And of course to cheer Christopher Reeve up,
pretended to be a surgeon and did a Russian accent.
I mean, your typical Robin Williams thing. But I love
that he did that for Christopher Reeve to cheer him up.
You know, Robin Williams was adamantly against the war in
Iraq and yet still performed so many times for the
troops that they called him the new Bob Hope. He

(32:05):
was best friends with uh. He was best friends with
Steven Spielberg and would literally call the actors on this
set of Schendler's List because he knew how emotionally taxing
that shoot was, and he would just do bits on
speakerphone to lift their spirits, like he would do a
lot of his a lad material over the speakerphone to
lift the spirits of the cast of Schendler's List.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
You know.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
He co hosted the American version of Comic Relief. Hankas
Arias said that while they were filming this movie and
they were on breaks, Robin would go out to the
studio lot and perform for the groups on the trams
that were taking the studio tour. He's like, nobody did that.
Everybody avoided those trams. Robin would go out and perform
for them when we were on breaks. Further testament to
what a mint she was. Nathan Lane was not out

(32:49):
to the general public, as we mentioned, when making or
promoting The Birdcage, and he was especially nervous when doing
an interview on the Oprah Winfrey Show. But Nathan Lane
said Robin Williams had his back and told him that
if he didn't want to come out, that Robin Williams
would do his best to make sure that wouldn't happen,
and held true to that, so literally protecting his identity,
his secret, his information to share. Doesn't want to become

(33:12):
public with it. Robin's like, I got you.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
Buddy, and huge Warhammer fan.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
Huge Warhammer fan. Absolutely, that was gonna be the top
of my list of good guy shit.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
I mean, look, he can't he can't be, you know,
Robin Williams and a Warhammer fan and not be awesome.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
And he really was, and he's great in this movie.
He's he is, you know, the more subdued character, but
at the same time he finds the emotional range, he
finds those bits of genuine love and compassion, and he
plays this role so sweetly. And you know this, this
movie was hugely beloved and important for high school Brian.

(33:49):
I watched this fucking thing so many times at that age.
It's because I was a theater kid. I was branching out,
you know, not only doing high school shows, but also
like community theater, in local repertory theaters. Like I was
really passionate about it. I practiced a lot. I would
read scenes in my room. I'd practice different accents from tapes,

(34:09):
like I really was like trying to be good at this.
And in doing all of that, I was introduced to
a whole swath of new people from all different walks
of life and different lifestyles. I mean, in the world
of theater, if you're trying to avoid it, you shouldn't
be in theater, because that is part and parcel with
you know, that world. And and I, luckily, you know,

(34:30):
I credit my parents for teaching me the value of
kindness and openness and never to judge people because I
never had any trouble incorporating people who were different from
me into my circle. You know, if we were all
there to do a show, we're all there to do
a job. Like it was, it was just so rewarding
to meet new people. And this kind of coincided with
me being a little bit more analytical about my appreciation

(34:51):
of film. So I wouldn't say I was pretentious about it,
but there was certainly what I would call a naive
seriousness because this is what I wanted to do when
I wanted to be good at it. So I would
read film books, I would watch copious episodes of Inside
the Actors Studio and Robin Williams episode of Inside the
Actors Studio. If you haven't seen it, it's like from

(35:12):
ninety I want to say, it's like ninety eight or something.
It is this chaotic magic show of unrelenting bits and
I adored it. I watched it. Oh, I taped it.
I watched it over and over and over again. And
that's when I discovered this movie. And it explains how
The Bird Cage became the first work of queer cinema

(35:33):
to work its way into my heart and why I've
always had a fondness for it and always had this
big affection for Robin Williams. But yeah, I didn't really
think about it until we sat down record this episode.
But I was like, man, this movie was hugely important
for me because it was it hit me right at
the perfect time in my life. So there's a lot
of theater kids shit in me, and there's a lot
of theater kid shit that goes into my love for

(35:55):
this movie. But I mean, you don't have to be
a theater kid to appreciate things like the opening fucking
shot of this film. Oh my god. We have a
cinematographer here. Emmanuel Lubeski, also known as Chievo. He is
the cinematographer on films like The Revenant, Birdman, Gravity, Tree

(36:17):
of Life, Children of Men, Ali, Sleepy Hollow, The Cat
and The Hat. I don't know how that one got
in there, but he does this shot at the beginning
of the movie, this absolute magic trick of convincing the
audience that it's all one shot, when in reality it's three.
But the three shots are a helicopter shot, to a

(36:39):
crane shot, to a steady cam shot, and they're all
combined into this false ononner using the magic of dissolves,
matting and morphing. And I watched it over and over
again today and I couldn't like. I mean, if you
really look hard, you can see the seams, but the
way they work the seams in holy shit, it's like

(37:00):
like we're not even into the movie yet and I'm
already like, goddamn, that's incredible.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's a really great shot. And also
keep in mind that this is a shot in nineteen
ninety six where they're not trying to convince anybody. It's
a wonner. It's a wonder for the experience of the audience.
So it's not one of those things where you know, oh,
I can see the seams. It's like, well, congratulations. They
weren't trying to They weren't trying to convince you that it.

(37:26):
You know, they managed to do something that was physically impossible.
They did something because we are walking you into this
club and taking you around this club and making you
feel like you're in the club and putting you there
and feeling not it as an observer, but a participant,
because this movie is inviting you in. And it's a

(37:47):
wonderful shot that we would see something similar almost you know,
very similar a year later in boogiey Knights.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
This is very true Paul Thomas anders And by the way,
you mentioned Boogi Knights. Paul Thomas Anderson has said that
this movie is one of the two films that will,
without fail or question, make him stop dead in his
tracks and watch all the way to the very end,
no matter what else is happening, whenever it's on TV.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
I would not be shocked if that opening of Boogie
Knights was borrowed from this.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
I wouldn't be shocked by that either.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
But this is where we're introduced to the Birdcage, this
incredible drag club in South Beach, and we see that
the various acts that are going on. Of course, we
open with we are Family, which is, you know, a
great anthem, but also directly connected to what this movie
is challenging, which is the idea that family values is
connected is inextricable from conservative family values, when the term

(38:43):
is actually a lot more broad than that, and in
many cases, the people that espouse that the only type
of family values are Christian Republican conservative family values are
the people that aren't necessarily adhering to.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
The most the most moral family values.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
I don't know if you guys can open your mind
and consider the hypocrisy of a politician saying that you
have to live this way and this is the only
moral good, and then they themselves.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Are not very moral. I don't know if you can
get your head around that, because it's never happened before.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
But I think one of the things that has aged
the worst about this movie is how that bit hasn't
aged at all, Like every every bit of usually when
you have political satire in the nineties, it is so
very of the nineties and you just kind of, you know,
slap your knee and go, oh, isn't that adorable? Wouldn't

(39:35):
it be great if that was still politics today? And
instead this is like, oh no, this is exactly what
politics is today, like right down to you know, the
head of one of the you know, conservative family for
moral order is you know, does the worst possible thing.
And the movie acknowledges that there's literally a moment where

(39:56):
this situation gets worse because the prostitute the senator dies
with is black, like they and they straight up acknowledge
that like that's where this uh, where the conservative movement
is at that point, and by the way, has not
moved far from There's a lot that has changed and
a lot that has gotten worse in the rhetoric over

(40:17):
the years, but that particular part it just feels very
much like satire you'd have today, which you generally like,
you know, one of our movies that we covered, favorite
movies that we covered years ago, Dave, You know, a
person is ruined just because someone goes on television and
tells everybody what they're up to, and that feels so
naive in twenty twenty five, where it's like, yeah, that

(40:39):
guy would still get elected and then get another term,
like he tells me.

Speaker 1 (40:42):
Called that the Howard Dean conundrum, where it's like Howard
Dean had to drop out of a presidential race because
he yelled weird one time. Yehaw, Yeah, he got made
fun of so hard for it he had to literally
drop out of the running.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
And thirty four felamies later, haven't you know. So anyhow,
that's that's the thing I really find, like how hard
they go into that felt at the time like it
was satire, like it was way too far, and now
it's like, oh no, that's really on the note.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, yeah, And I just gotta say the Coalition for
Moral Order, Like.

Speaker 4 (41:22):
I hear those words in my vagina drives up, do
you know what I mean? Like it's just not the
most appealing, like ah, Like there's draconian and then there's
that shit.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Im no, no thank you, no thank you at all.

Speaker 3 (41:34):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
But yes, we're introduced these acts.

Speaker 4 (41:35):
But the star of this particular club is uh Starrena
is literally her name now carget When I tell you that,
I think Mike Nichols had a chip on his shoulder
making this movie. Not just because of the you know,
the time he was fired. You you would need a
whole swimming pool of guacamole for that chip. No, not
just because getting fired off of the attempt to revive

(41:58):
it as a stage play. But I think just worry
was in his career at this time. I definitely think
he hit a chip on his shoulder. So I don't
think he was unaware of the attempt before him to
turn this movie into a film with Sinatra and Dudley Moore,
because Starrena happens to be an anagram of Sinatra, and
they changed the name of this character from the original

(42:20):
play and movie to the name Albert which happens to
be Sinatra's middle name. So there's part of me that's
like that is his sly like finger poke at the
version that was gonna happen without him. Like I again,
I think there's a story about you know, when they
when they finished making this movie and they had this
dinner afterwards, and and Mike Nichols was talking about how

(42:44):
he was so excited and so angry at the same time,
and he said his reaction was instantaneously like, you know,
thinking about the people that had written him off, and
fuck you bastards you thought I couldn't do this anymore.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
We'll look at this like those are his words.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
So again, not so much a theory that he had
a chip on his shoulder, but just a biographical fact
that he had a chip on his shoulder. But I
do think the whole Starna Sinatra thing is tied into
that chip.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
For sure.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
That would not shock me after these messages. We'll be
right back.

Speaker 3 (43:13):
Julie Palmer's a lone shark who's about to get Hollywood.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
I got an idea from a movie.

Speaker 3 (43:19):
Becaun't everybody now the man who knows all the angles?

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Yesterday you were alone shot But I was never that thrun.

Speaker 5 (43:26):
Do you think the movie business is a little different.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
It's calling all the shots. You must bring something heavy.

Speaker 7 (43:31):
To the deal.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
I don't me.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
He's got no respect for us.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
John Travolda, you're stumbad.

Speaker 5 (43:38):
Huh yeah, some bead for you guys, sized Ge Napman
and I'm helping out Skara Rene Whoso.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
I know you're acting some answer you don't show. I
thought I was faking and Danny DeVito slip away, Well
it didn't sip away, Martin.

Speaker 5 (43:56):
You did when you went off with Nikki at my
birthday party.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Then it's a good party.

Speaker 7 (44:02):
Business is movie business.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Don't you puke on my shoes, Harry. I'm going to
go back to Lone Shock and just to take her
rest and get Shorty Raddar.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
It starts Friday, October twenties.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
That's theaters everywhere.

Speaker 4 (44:13):
We go upstairs and star Starina is having a bit
of a of an episode. She's very upset about something.
She's fighting with Armand played by Robin Williams, who is
the club owner and her partner, and she's convinced that
there's another man in his life. And she has this
great line about like, uh, you know you. You've made me,

(44:34):
You've made me very insecure, and you've made me this
and I'm now I'm just a fat short well but
he just lets he lets her say all of this,
and then Rob Wims just goes, wait, I made you short,
like I I love his like I love you, but
I'm I'm I'm frustrated with you and I've I've heard
all of these things before. Like he has a line
shortly after this he says, if we don't finish making

(44:55):
up soon, I'm gonna kill myself.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
And I'm just like, I get it, man, I get it.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
We're like, I love you all to hear all of this,
but I have also heard all of this. Yeah, great interaction.
So we're kind of bounced from here. It's in this
moment where they do this weird sort of fake out
where you think Armand is meeting a lover and it
turns out that he's actually meeting his son, his son

(45:21):
who is played by Oscar nominated screenwriter Dan Futterman as Val.
He wrote Capoti and co wrote Fox Catchers. This is
a twice nominated screenwriter now Dan Futterman, and he's not
the only Oscar nominated screenwriter to appear in this cast.
We also have Grant Heslov as one of the tabloid journalists.

(45:42):
Grant Heslov of good Night and good Luck. I believe
he won the Oscar for Argo. He was an actor
for many years in movies that are fully in line
with our core values, things like Licensed to Drive, True Lies, Congo,
Black Sheep, Dante's Peak, Enemy of the State. I could
go on and on and on, but he's partnered in
this movie with Tom McGowan, who was very important to
me because, in addition to being Captain Ronn, he was
also in a movie called Heavyweights that was in high

(46:04):
rotation at the Salisbury House. And it's funny too that
Heslov and Futterman are both in this because they both
got their first Oscar nominations for screenwriting in the same
year in two thousand and five, Heslav for good Night
and good Luck and Futterman for Capoti. So again, Heslov
one of the tabloid journalists. Dan Futterman as Val and.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
It's weird Cargo. Some critics have actually argued that it's
Val who's the real villain of the movie. I agree, okay,
I think there's a time I would have agreed as well,
like he is the guy asking his parents who have
never been anything but loving to him, who have never
given him anything but a wonderful home, Like, hey, can
you completely hide and lie about who you are to
play Kate a biggot just so I can marry his daughter?

(46:45):
But I do think I do think there are.

Speaker 4 (46:49):
You know, now, as I watched this movie, get a
little distance from it, get a little bit older, I
think there are some sympathetic notes on the page for
this character, And to Futterman's credit, I do think he
finds them, because this is character who's young. He's put
into this situation by a lie that he didn't tell,
that his fiance told. And his fiance is even younger
than he is, and he loves her and he desperately

(47:10):
doesn't want to lose her, and he knows that his
fiance is young enough that without her father's blessing, this
wedding won't happen. And he is just flailing. This is
a drowning man just trying to grab onto a life preserver,
and he's not going about it the most sensitive way,
and he's not he's being a little selfish, But in
the end he does do the right thing, and he
proudly stands by his folks. So I've gotten to a

(47:31):
point where I don't really see him as the villain.
He may be, you know, the inciting action for all
of He may be the complication in other words, but
I don't. I don't think he's the antagonist of the movie.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I disagree fair enough, and only because like he is sympathetic,
everyone is sympathetic. By the end, you know, this movie
is very very anti Christian conservative, and yet at the
end you love Gene Hackman and Diane Weist and they
you know, they this this movie forgives everybody because it

(48:05):
does stick to that entire concept of we are family
like that is ultimately what this movie is. This is
the can't we all get along of gay films of
the nineties. But yeah, but the thing is is he
doesn't ask his family to do this. He's pretty demanding
about it. That's what really hit me this time, because

(48:27):
I remember being like that shitty thing to do and
having the opinion that you had, and I've always felt
that way. Watching it this time, I was very much like, no,
he is pretty much laying down that dad's you guys
are gonna do this for me because I need this
and I don't ask anything of you, so you better
do it. And and it's it's like, oh, dude, you

(48:48):
are like he expresses his level of shame about where
he comes from. That is, you know, is a gateway
in nineteen ninety six, but in twenty twenty five feels
very very wrong headed, and so I definitely am in
that camp. I do want to talk about one of

(49:11):
the things with him and his fiance played by Calista Flockhart,
in another true nineties kind of thing like that only
in the nineties, Like, you could not remake this film
beat for beat and word for word in twenty twenty five.
You'd have to change some things. And one of the
things you have to change is Calista Flockhart being eighteen
years old yep, and having been sexually active for a

(49:35):
year with her boyfriend who's two years older than him. Ye,
that gets mentioned. Also eighteen year old Calista Flockhart played
by thirty two year old Calista Flockhart.

Speaker 4 (49:47):
Well, let's be fair, Carget, to be fair, to be fair,
timmy fair. You say that this is problematic and you
can't do it, but it's nineteen ninety six, so it's
also the golden era of Seinfeld. So I feel like
if there was one person that might think you can
do this is Jerry Seinfeld.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
So well, I mean, look as somebody who is nineteen
with my seventeen year old girlfriend who is now my wife.
There's and and with a full understanding of the Romeo
and Juliette laws. Let's say I get it, don't.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
Okay, by the way, guys, you want to talk about
a red flag someone who says, I know all the
ins and outs of the Romeo and Juliet loss.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
Yes, that's a hell.

Speaker 4 (50:29):
That's there's a character that laminates the Romeo and Juliet
laws and one of them their later Transformers movie.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yes, that was That was the joke I was going for.
But there we go.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
So I really really somebody is telling on himself.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
No, but it's one of those things where you know,
in the nineties, that was something that you know, as
having been there, totally acceptable. You know, hey, you guys
are cheers apart, that's totally fine. In twenty twenty five,
someone under the age of eighteen is not considered, you know,
despite what the laws are, are generally not considered by

(51:04):
society to have given consent, so things have definitely changed.
But that was one of those things that like set
up the flag. I was like, wait a second, they
said she's eighteen and they've been sexually active for year.
That means oh math. But I just thought it very
funny that despite the fact that, by the way, she
looks eighteen as fuck, that's how young Calista Flockhart just

(51:27):
always looked. She was thirty two when she made this
movie playing an eighteen year old.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
I hate that the Romeo and Juliet laws are the
reason for this.

Speaker 7 (51:37):
But sidebar, sidebary, here we go.

Speaker 4 (51:48):
So the composer on this movie, the no, the composer
on this movie is a guy named Jonathan Tunic, who
is one of two count them two EG honors involved
in this project, being Mike Nichols himself.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
But Jonathan Chunick is a big Broadway guy.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
By the way, how when we said, when you said
too e gotters, how many of you out there thought
that maybe Robert Robin Williams or Nathan Lane were the
e gotters and they aren't.

Speaker 4 (52:17):
Oh yeah, Before diving into the research, I would have
sworn on a stack of burning Bibles that absolutely Nathan
Lane had an egot, but he does not is not,
but this composer does because he worked a lot on Broadway.
But he also scored a few movies, including Speaking of
Romeo and Juliet Law's Endless Love, which is a really creepy,

(52:38):
ugly movie from the eighties. But I really want to know,
as the composer of that score, Jonathan, what the fuck
is with that dramatic rendition of Lionel Richie's Endless Love
song from that movie I.

Speaker 7 (52:56):
Can't resist Joha.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
There's a moment where the house is burning down and
they literally play this like big, sweeping orchestral, but it's
also supposed to be tense and dramatic version of I'll
hold You Close in my own It doesn't make any

(53:25):
fucking sense. And you have an egot, sir, you should
know better.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Oh man, I have not seen ed List Love. Oh
good point nine? Oh my goodness, do you.

Speaker 4 (53:35):
Know what cargo? Consider yourself lucky? I saw the remake
and that was bad enough. But then I was listening.
I was actually listening to an old eighties all over
and they talked about in the movie, and they played
a little snippet of the because they turned the song
into basically a motif throughout the film in different like
different tempos and different styles, much like you know what,
uh what they did.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
For the Long Goodbye and the Long Goodbye.

Speaker 4 (53:57):
But they play the song the house is burning down
and everyone's like, I'm going back in to save her,
and it's just like a dramatic version of that Lionel Richie.
It's terrible. But as Jonathan unic is one of two
egotters on this film, I did want to mention him.

Speaker 2 (54:11):
I just I love the tagline on this poster. She
is fifteen, he is seventeen, the love every parent fears.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
She is fifteen, He is seventeen and wants to be
a film critic someday, endlessener.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
By the a sidebar in a sidebar.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Side sception again he got of a sidebar?

Speaker 2 (54:39):
How great of a cameo is mister movie phone when
he shows up to be doing the news report.

Speaker 4 (54:47):
If you think, if you think that when they're in
the limo driving to South Beach and they are hearing
that Al Sharpton is denouncing the final words of Senator
Jackson over the radio. So if you think the person
reading that news report is not the King of Trailers,
Don la Fontaine. You are out of your fucking mind.

(55:09):
Don la Fontaine gets into this movie and I fucking
here for it. Let's talk about the hack Man of
the hour. Now, you mentioned I love I love how
you set me up for this, because you mentioned that
the theme of this movie is inescapably. We are family,
and as we all know, we all have people in
our families that we don't like necessarily, but we do love.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
And what I love.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
About Gene Hackman is that Gene Hackman always has this
vibe of like a bastard uncle, you still love despite
his bastardliness, and he brings that full force to this
character of this senator that he's playing, Senator Keeley, who
along with a Senator Jackson, have formed the Coalition for

(55:56):
Moral Order Black and he is about to go on
a reelection tour. Well, as he's about to embark on
this reelection tour, and he's just been told by his
young daughter, Hey, I want to marry this guy, he
gets a phone call that his Moral Order Coalition co founder,
Senator Jackson, has died in the arms of an underage
black prostitute and is basically fucked because this is going

(56:21):
to tarnish his ability to get reelected.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
What are they going to do?

Speaker 4 (56:25):
And he and his wife, played by the incredible Diane West, decide,
you know what, a wedding might actually be a good
thing for us. So let's go meet these parents. Let's
get the hell out of here because reporters are surrounding
our house.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
Let's sneak out of here.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Let's go to South Beach and meet these parents, which
is the entire setup of Oh my god, now we
have to pretend to be straight because these these right
wing nut jobs are coming. But what I love about
I'll get back to Gene Hackman, just saying what I
love about Diane Weist in this movie. Apart from being
absolutely adorable, she is the definition of unflappable, but in

(56:58):
a waspy way, like every weird thing that pops up
she just rolls with and it is it is a
very waspy affect, but she plays it with such charm.
Like One of my favorites is when she walks into
the house and they've course corrected too hard. They've over
corrected on the straightness of this place, Like it definitely
looks like a tomb that they're walking into. No art

(57:19):
on the walls, candles everywhere. It looks like a mausoleum
that they've walked into, and she says, what a lovely
vacation home. It's so severe and she says it just
like that, like she is just like so she's like, yes,
everything is great, like I refuse to let anything bother me.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
Interesting shinan why it looks like young men.

Speaker 4 (57:39):
Playing leap trog and then later when she has when
they go so far the other way that Nathan Lane
has done such a good job of portraying the mother
that Gene Hackman is actually like having building up a
lot of affection for her, like Diane we'e getting jealous
and then at the end being like somebody has to
like me best. It just incredible performance by Diane Weese

(58:02):
as the wife of Gene Hackman, who I think it's
interesting that he's in this movie because his college roommate
was Dustin Hoffman, who, of course his big break was
the Graduate Director by Mike Nichols. So I do think
that Gene Hackman in this movie is the perfect balance
of detestable and amusing, Like this is the most I've
ever liked a character who says the things that comes

(58:24):
out of Gene Hackman's mouth in this movie. And I
don't think that's a small accomplishment. Yeah, because I mean
he again, like we're introduced to him. He's talking about
how like Billy Graham is too liberal and Bob Dole
is too dark and like.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
All this shit. It's like he doesn't even like his
fellow Republicans.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
And by the way, there's a Bob Dole joke in
this movie.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
Bob Dole is gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (58:50):
That by the way, it feels very weird because after
his failed run for president, he started showing up everywhere,
so it's shocking that he's not here. Like, that's the
weird part. It's not that there's a Bob Dole joke,
it's that Bob Dole doesn't show up for a Bob
Dole joke, because after nineteen ninety six, Bob Dole was

(59:11):
everywhere telling Bob Dole jokes.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
Now, this is only half as many times as Bob
Dole refers to himself as Bob Dole in the third person.
So I totally it wasn't he doing like ed medication,
Oh yes, commercials after.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
A while, Yeah, like he did everything like and he
was it was a wink and a smile and everybody
had fun with him, and he uh, he became one
of those known as like one of the you know,
one of the elder statesmen in the party to where
when there was something going on in Senate, he he
actually was. He was. He was wheelchair bound at that point.

(59:43):
They rolled him into Senate to watch. He wasn't serving anymore,
but he was there just to kind of oversee, uh
and kind of give his voice of support for a
particular vote. And he got a standing ovation from the
senators there when he came. But he was, Yeah, he
he became a very affable, likable guy after a while,

(01:00:05):
which considering which administrations he had, you know, been party to,
some people were not thrilled with that career, you know,
revitalization and that's you know, those are arguments very different day.
But but yeah, this it just feels weird that there's
a nineties movie that makes a Bob Dole joke and

(01:00:26):
Bob Dole isn't there to wink at the camera, because
after this he always would be.

Speaker 4 (01:00:30):
I don't love that you put the Bob Dole erect
outis function commercials back in my brain, Like I don't
need to think about Bob Dole's exit poll. Do you
know what I mean, Like, I don't need any of that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
It could be an entrance poll.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
I mean, he got a standing ovation, but not on
his own. He definitely needed one of those pills. Look,
the point is Gene.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Had point is if it doesn't go down after four hours,
call a doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
I'm calling a press conference. If it doesn't go down
after four hours, are you kidding me? Give me a
break calling a doctor.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
They decide to go on this so for most of
the movie, they're just in the limo like they're driving
to the movie for most of the movie, which is
so incredible that even though he doesn't really begin the
meat of his performance till forty minutes from the end,
he still manages to own his portion of the screen.
And I love that even though he's stern, he's imposing,
he's wrongheaded and very conservative and not a very likable guy,

(01:01:25):
the movie finds a way to oddly humanize him through
his epic boringness. Like him describing their trip.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Down is agonizing by design.

Speaker 5 (01:01:39):
It's just so magical to me to come from the north,
where it's cold, to.

Speaker 7 (01:01:44):
The south, where it's warm.

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
See the tremendous differences from region to region in this
incredible country of ours.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
Yeah. No, and you know the fact that he he
loves this wife character because she speaks her mind, and
speaking her mind means you know, hey, look the baby
was gonna get aboarded anyway. You know, I say, we
kill the woman, you know, and the baby goes that
with the ship.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
What the fuck?

Speaker 6 (01:02:14):
You know?

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
She doesn't mean any of this. That's the best part.
That's the part that is the most scathingly like like
denouncing this kind of thinking, is that she pretends to
go along with it and says things that are even
more widely inappropriate. And Gene Hackman's just like, ah, how charming. Yes,
like that is the ultimate statement about this type of thinking,
for sure. But I love how taken Gene Hackman is

(01:02:36):
with Nathan Lane pretending to be VAL's mother.

Speaker 1 (01:02:39):
Or Missus Colman.

Speaker 7 (01:02:40):
She cries if you call her mother, she's not vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Just breaks my heart. They don't make women like that anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Here's a simple woman from Grover's Corners.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
She literally tells Gene Hackman she's from Grover's Corners and
he doesn't pick up on it. That's the town from
our town, motherfucker.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
You should know that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:00):
Going back just a hair. You know. The thing about
this we keep talking about, you know, the movie we
all remember is the last forty minutes. The bulk of
this movie is two men coming to grips with having
to do this favor for their son, and then satirizing
straight culture and having fun with it and trying to

(01:03:23):
like while they're having what seems like a lot of
making fun of gay culture and joking about gay culture,
and there is plenty of that in here. There's a
lot of satirizing of straight culture in here. At the
same time. One of my favorite bits in the movie
is when they're trying to teach Albert how to walk

(01:03:44):
like a man, you know, and which you and I
have one of our favorite favorite histories about this of
all time involves somebody trying to walk like a man
and getting it so wrong that we can't stark.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Are you talking about Trash? Of course, I'm talking about Trash.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
From the Bronx nineteen ninety Brons Warriors, in which, you know,
we've told this story many times, but in which one
actor that worked with him said he was so lying
on his feet he wouldn't leave prints in the snow,
and the director taught him how to walk, and instead
he does not walk like any being walks. And so
there's a whole series of Albert doing this and at

(01:04:25):
one point there's this great bit where Armand is just like,
try to walk like John Wayne. So Haythan Lane does
this John Wayne impression that he's like, is that bad?
And just like, no, I just never realized John Wayne
walked like that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:43):
The other great part of that is when he's trying
to he's trying to teach him how to talk like
a straight guy.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
It's like, ah, yes, old so and so, can you
believe it? How do you feel about that call today?

Speaker 5 (01:04:52):
I mean, the Dolphins fourth and three play on their
thirty yard line with only thirty four seconds to go.

Speaker 1 (01:04:58):
How do you think I feel?

Speaker 7 (01:04:59):
Betray bewildered, strong response, I'm not sure.

Speaker 4 (01:05:06):
He's like, is that is that wrong? And Robin Williams responses,
I honestly don't know. It's so good like.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
And quite literally, that is the bulk of what the
movie is. The movie is them prepping for this, not
the actual event. Like the actual event is the last
forty minutes of the movie, and that includes credits like
this movie once once they show up and we get
to the dinner, that's the third act, and that's where

(01:05:34):
everything starts, you know, becoming what it is. And then
the conclusion is so quick. I remember it being like
a much more involved thing, and it really is like
a quick two minutes into the club and out and
then the great final the great final bit of the
movie where we uh see Gene Hackman tell his driver

(01:05:56):
to meet him at the corner of such and such
and such and such and the drive is just like
not in a million years, lady.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Dude, I love the little moments of honest, heartfelt sweetness
in this movie that absolutely transcend orientation, gender or anything.

Speaker 4 (01:06:12):
Like there's so many lines in this movie it's like
I don't care who you are or what you believe,
Like that was an incredibly sweet thing that was said.
You definitely buy every single relationship in this movie. When
when Armand says to Albert, like, here's the polimony agreement.
You own half my life, I own half of yours.
There's only one place in the world I call home,
and it's.

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Because you're there.

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
Like that got to me, Like that's just a beautiful,
beautiful sentiment and you know, armand talking about how he's
gonna give up his beautiful cemetary plot and keep us
gain because he wants to be buried next to Albert,
his shitty cemetery.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
So I never miss a laugh.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
I mean, that's the crux of this movie is the
big thing that turning on its ears. It's the bickering
old married couple that loves each other very much. And
the big twist in the you know, in the seventies
in France in the nineties in America because it takes
us a while to catch up, is that it's two men.

Speaker 4 (01:07:05):
And are you saying we're behind the French in terms
of sexual liberation? Cargol, I will not hear of this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
We're behind the French in a lot of things.

Speaker 4 (01:07:12):
We're behind a lot of people in a lot of things,
as it turns out. But I mean there's even lines
from Vale where he's like the lines beginning of this
movie that kills me is when Val says, I'm the
only guy in my fraternity that doesn't come from a
broken home.

Speaker 1 (01:07:27):
Yeah, like that is.

Speaker 4 (01:07:28):
Like when the number one argument of pundits against gay
marriage at this point was that that's not a stable
home environment for a child and for him to That
is why I am not gonna sit here and let
anyone tell me that Mike Nichols is not a subversive filmmaker.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
When Val says I'm the only guy in my fraternity that.

Speaker 4 (01:07:46):
Doesn't come from a broken home, that is a beautiful
piece of writing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:50):
One of the most oft told jokes by comedians in
the nineties, that was one of those woke jokes in
the nineties was arguing straight up that no, we should
allow gay marriage because they have every they have every
right to be as miserable as we are, of course,
and that was the running gag, because take my wife please,
but take my husband please.

Speaker 1 (01:08:11):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (01:08:12):
Absolutely, Henny gayman instead of Hinny young men. Absolutely, And
like the scene where Albert is wearing it could still
be it could still be Jesus Christ. The fact that
Albert wears the suit like.

Speaker 2 (01:08:27):
You just suddenly giving me praise there just filled my
heart with joy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:31):
It's it's begrudging to say the least, but I will
take it because we have already discussed endless love like
five times.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
So yeah, I'll take it.

Speaker 4 (01:08:42):
The thing the story goes that because these you know,
very conservative parents are coming. We've got to get Albert
out of here. Albert is definitely the more flamboyant one.
He's never gonna pass this straight. We just got to
get him out of here. And they're going to convince
the woman who gave birth to Val to pose as
his I mean it is technically his mother, but to

(01:09:02):
come and pose.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
By the way, legend, Christine Baranski.

Speaker 1 (01:09:06):
Dude, this movie has you know, if the replacements, according
to Gene Hackman, has miles and miles of heart, this
movie has miles and miles of Broadway heft, and she
is the icing on the cake. Like again, two egodters,
Nathan Lane, Christine Baranski, Like this is a heavy hitting
Broadway movie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
And by the way, by the way, you can see
if you if you love those folks, if you've not
watched The Gilded Age. The Guilded Age has Christine Baranski
and Nathan Lane in amazing roles. It's on Max soon
to be HBO, Max soon to be HBL.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Gonna just be O.

Speaker 2 (01:09:47):
But they are amazing in it. But yes, so Christine
Baranski shows up midway through the film and it's like, oh, wonderful,
let's go.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
In a small role, but she has, you know, that
great dance bit with Williams, and she finds that sweet
little moment because she's been.

Speaker 1 (01:10:01):
Out of VAL's life this entire time, but.

Speaker 4 (01:10:04):
That moment when she calls to check about this message
she got from Armand and Vow's the one who picks
up and she realizes, like is this Vow, Like in
that tiny little moment, she finds the sweetness and she
finds a way to be moving, Like I love that
she makes a meal out of that, just that one
tiny sliver of a moment.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
And then we find out at the end of the
movie she's never met Val.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
She's never met him, she's never met him in his
whole life, and and it only reinforces the fact that
Albert has been mother to I mean, Val calls him,
calls her his momm Yeah, and like that's that's literally
you know how he refers to Albert. And I love that.

Speaker 4 (01:10:41):
I love at the end when he you know, finally
takes it, when you know the ruse has come down,
and Christine Baranski, who wasn't supposed to show up, does
end up showing up because now we've changed it. We
were going to get rid of Albert. Albert's gonna stay
and pretend to be straight, and he puts on that
suit and he's tried so hard to pass for straight
because this girl is important to his steps on. And
that's the other thing Gargil that I think has kind

(01:11:03):
of changed my opinion on Valve being the villain is
there are moments in your life where you will do
things for your kids, even when they're being little shits,
like you will absently, like it doesn't matter if they
say thank you, you will still do it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
And that's kind of the attitude that I.

Speaker 4 (01:11:17):
That I am probably you know, projecting onto Armand and
Albert in this but that moment where just because this
girl is important to what is effectively his steps on,
Albert puts on the suit. He's really trying to pass,
and he has that line he says, I just wanted
Holy shit, I just wanted so much to help you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
That's a shit.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
Wait, blind, like he really is trying to pass for straight.
He's like he should never have been asked to do that.

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
Don't get me wrong, but the fact that he's willing
to try just to make val happy is the sweetest
fucking thing in this whole movie.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
After these messages, we'll be right back.

Speaker 5 (01:11:55):
Courage something shared by countless Americans. So nombarrassing to talk
about ED, but it's so important dominions are out of
their partners that I decide to talk about a bug point.

Speaker 2 (01:12:07):
And after all, it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:08):
Can be associated with many conditions in the fluting, prostate surgery,
high blood pressure, diabetes.

Speaker 2 (01:12:15):
Or even smoking.

Speaker 5 (01:12:16):
And the point I want to make is there are
many treatments available for ED. So my advice is get
a medical checkup. It's the best way to get educated
about ED and what can be done to treat it.
It may take the little courage, but I've always found
that everything worthwhile does.

Speaker 4 (01:12:36):
When that seems like it's falling apart, we gotta get
Baranski here. Oh wait a minute, we've completely forgotten that
Albert is a is a drag performer. So Albert just
goes and dons a wig and address and pretends to
be the mother, And for a while everyone is buying it,
and especially Senator Keeley is buying it and falling in
love with this woman, and I cannot believe we've gotten

(01:12:58):
this far. End of the episode, I can agree on
us Cargil that we've gotten this far into the episode
without talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Hank's area as Agador the housekeeper, who is just an
incredible work of comedy. Like I love this character so much.
Uh you know, he's he's Watemalan and you cannot handle
his watemalinness. And he's got this this squeaky voice that
based apparently on his grandmother. What is that? Where are
you talking to me?

Speaker 6 (01:13:22):
Like, I'm jusoma because you're a faithful houseman, now go.

Speaker 1 (01:13:26):
Yeah, but my father was the shaman of his tribe, okay,
my mother was the high priest death okay.

Speaker 7 (01:13:32):
And why the hell did they move to New Jersey?

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:13:34):
It's he's flamboyant. He's maybe a little over exaggerated, but
he's so fucking funny. Like the voice is is great,
the pratfalls, the physical comedy he's doing in this movie,
Like I had to literally pause it. I've seen this
movie probably thirty times. I still had to pause it
today twice because I was laughing so hard when he
like came down in those shoes and just face planted

(01:13:56):
on the floor, or when he slipped in the kitchen,
like I was having to catch my breath. It was
just incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Yeah, this is a very weird point in Hanka Saria's
career because he blew up, He like came out of nowhere,
and then all of a sudden he's on the biggest
show on television, Herman's Head and Zimsens. Of course, I
was just say what now, Oh, yeah, he was on

(01:14:22):
Herman's Head.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
I know Parker Lewis can't lose, but maybe instead we
should talk about.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Oh do you do you not know Herman's Head?

Speaker 4 (01:14:29):
Oh, I know Herman's Head. I'm just naming other shows
that were popular at that time instead of talking about
the fucking Simpsons.

Speaker 2 (01:14:34):
I guess yeah, no, no, no, he was actually I
was not kidding. He actually was a star of that show.
But anyhow, he like blew up and started being in
everything and was doing all sorts of different, you know,
different characters in everything. You know, he went, he was
doing you know, all these characters on the Simpsons, and
then you know, in nineteen ninety five, he's in like

(01:14:58):
three or four different movies and four different TV series,
and then you know, he's in Heat of All Things,
and then he's in the bird Cage, and then the
next the next year he's in gross point blank, and
every single character is radically different, and he's in everything
everywhere for the late part of this the nineties, and

(01:15:19):
you know, and it feels like he keeps being handed
the chance to become a star, and American audiences aren't
picking it up. And he's never bad, he's never mediocre,
he's always amazing. And a bunch of us were just
waiting for when is Hanka's area going to get his
huge you know day to where he's leading movies where

(01:15:41):
he's the you know, the big guy, And it never happened.
But he's continued to be one of the greatest, funniest
character actors working in Hollywood to this fucking day.

Speaker 4 (01:15:52):
So apparently he and his good friend Billy Bob Thornton
were both working on movies at this time, pegas Aria
working on This, Billy Bob working on sling Blade, and
since both the characters had distinctive vs. French Fri tiers,
I mean, sling Blade is really a character after our
own heart, I mean, but both characters have distinctive voices
and behavior, so the two of them would get together

(01:16:14):
and they'd work on their characters' voices by driving around
pretending that Agador and Carl Childers were in a buddycop
movie together, and I want a movie about the two
of them doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:16:26):
I just watched a movie that's kind of that and
it was delightful, So yeah, I want to see that.
But by the way, sidebark, if you've not seen the
new Deep Cover that's on Amazon Prime, that is, which

(01:16:47):
is about three improv comedians who end up going under
cover and then end up going up against every UK
British heavy that there is in crime movie, you have
missed out on an un delightful hour and a half
of your life.

Speaker 1 (01:17:04):
Wow. I'm going to check that out.

Speaker 4 (01:17:06):
By the way, you mentioned heat Apparently there was at
one point on his birthday that Hanka's area who was
casting this after Mike Nichol saw him. And Quiz Show,
which is a movie I just saw it for the
first time a couple of weeks ago. Oh yeah, it's
it's basically I called it the the JFK of controversies
that aren't that important, do you know what I mean?
Like it's treated as if it's JFK. But it's a

(01:17:28):
controversy that has slowed down the quiz quiz game show
industry for a couple of years. But it's it's a
it's an amazing film.

Speaker 1 (01:17:36):
It's just when you get to the end of it
and you go, wait a minute, this is this is
all just about somebody cheating on a game show.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
Okay, sure, but anyway, it was a big deal and
was a famous story for years, and you know that's
an OSCAR nominated film.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
No, the film is great. I want to make it clear.

Speaker 4 (01:17:50):
The film is great, but when you ultimately think about it,
they are applying a deep like conspiracy type of drama,
like very much like JFK. With the number of characters
and the number of stories that are plotlin threadlines that
are going at the same time.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
It very much is JFK.

Speaker 4 (01:18:06):
It's just that it has nothing to do with the
political assassination.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
It's uh, they cheated at this game show.

Speaker 2 (01:18:11):
So his life doesn't have a great ass So.

Speaker 4 (01:18:15):
But he's making on his birthday both Heat and this movie.
He comes right off of one set onto the other
on an eighteen hour fucking day, and when Mike Nichols
finds out that he's on an eighteen hour day on
his birthday, he fucking sends him home. He's like, what
the hell are you doing here go home? And I
just I love that story that he was literally making
heat and birdcage at the same time on his birthday.

Speaker 2 (01:18:37):
Yeah, he was, he was committed. He's I mean, how
long how long could that cartoon he was on possibly last?

Speaker 1 (01:18:45):
Yes, seriously, it's gonna end any day now, right.

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
I mean they're running out of ideas. And you know,
by the way, everybody thought Simpsons was ending any day
now twenty fucking year, thirty fucking years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:18:59):
Here's my idea, Cargil.

Speaker 4 (01:19:00):
Now that Abevigoda has actually passed away, I think they
should convert that website is abe Vigoda dead?

Speaker 1 (01:19:06):
To is the Simpsons done?

Speaker 4 (01:19:09):
And literally yes, you could just you could just click
on the website and check and it'll just say no
until it is, because we're essentially just waiting around.

Speaker 1 (01:19:16):
For it to die, like we were a Pagoda. I
don't know why. By the way, we collectively as the
society decided we needed to all get together and wait
for abe Vigoda to die. But that fucking happened.

Speaker 2 (01:19:27):
It absolutely did. It was very Actually I have a
better use for that website, but let's not get into
politics right now.

Speaker 1 (01:19:37):
Have they remade Endlesslove Again dot.

Speaker 2 (01:19:39):
Com that that's exactly what I was thinking.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
By the way, my watamalanis my natural heat. That great
line he has in this movie.

Speaker 4 (01:19:46):
He has so many great little quips, the way he
fires back at Robin Williams and he's a terrible housekeeper,
like so much of that performance is great.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
But apparently I hope this is true.

Speaker 4 (01:19:57):
IMDb, as we know, is the most you know, unimpeachable
source of movie news. Like it's never wrong, it's never
just made up. Oh yeah, but on Wikipedia or on Wikipedia.
On IMDb it says that my natural Heat was the
inspiration for wrestler Eddie Guerrero and his catchphrase Latino Heat,
calling himself Latino Heat. Eddie Garrero is one of my

(01:20:18):
favorite wrestlers of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:20:19):
So he was great.

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
If this is true, this is one of my favorite
pieces of trivia of all time.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
I hate that you put Eddlas's love in my head.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
She is fifteen, he's been convicted of thirty four felonies.
It's a love every parent fear.

Speaker 4 (01:20:36):
I'm I'm damaging your psyche, but you know, don't mind.

Speaker 1 (01:20:41):
Anyway.

Speaker 4 (01:20:45):
I just want to mention really quickly the criticism and
the embrace of this movie because there were criticisms from
the gay community. This is I was a little tad
nervous about two Sis guys discussing it during Pride, because
there were some people that opine that the film contained
broad stereo types of gay people, probably largely around Hank
Azaria's character, but the particularly in the depiction of effeminine

(01:21:07):
gay men in general. I mean, there is a critic
for The New York Times, Bruce Bauer, who said that
it reinforces stereotypes that homosexuals are marginal, superficial creatures with
plenty of disposable income and relationships that aren't as solid,
which again makes me think that he didn't watch the movie,
because the relationship between Armand and Albert is the most
solid in the fucking movie.

Speaker 1 (01:21:27):
Yeah, so I don't really get that.

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):
But that being said, you know, Mike Nichols said that
the film is not meant to reflect the gay community
as a whole. The jokes are about divas, they're about theater,
they're about stars, they're you know, and critics responded as
if they were about gay people in general, and it
just isn't so. And again, being a privileged cis male.
I want to make it very clear that if you
are in the LGBTQ community and you feel that way

(01:21:51):
about The Bird Cage, I respect that I'm not out
to argue with your feelings. But I do also think
it's worth noting that Glad praise the film for going
beyond the stereotypes to see the character's depth and humanity,
and they said the film celebrates the differences and point
outs the outs the outrageousness of hiding those differences. And
it actually was nominated for a GLAD Media Award. And

(01:22:14):
on top of that, there were critics like BBC's Emily Maskew,
who said, you know what's particularly astute about the film
is the way in which it mixes farcical hijinks with
a satirical intent, taking aim at both homophobia and the
crisis of masculinity as it navigates the infiltration of conservativism
excuse me into a liberal space. So again, on both

(01:22:35):
sides of this, I think there have been really interesting
reads on this movie. But ultimately where I land, just
me personally is I think the movie is subversive in
the way it takes on conservative America and how they
view the gay community versus this is just a story
about people, people who are in love, people of different
orientations who are in love, and it's just about those

(01:22:57):
human stories. And they find so much hard in this movie,
between so many couples, and especially between Armand and Albert,
that I don't I don't know how it can be
read as anything positive.

Speaker 2 (01:23:09):
I mean, I feel that, you know, some of the
stereotypes stuck out to me at the time when it
came out. I was, as I've talked about in the past.
You know, my best friend came out when he was fifteen,
and you know, I had a choice to you know,
either find a new best friend or you know, be
the be the best friend of a gay guy in
small town Texas, and I chose the latter. And so

(01:23:29):
I spent a lot of years in the nineties in
the San Antonio gay community, and so some of these
you know were you know, glaring, and I get the
criticisms at the time, but the where media was at
the time, these were also huge step forward, the steps forward.

(01:23:51):
It's a movie that's very of its time. It's not
a movie that I think, hey, you know what, that's
right for a remake New that's it's it's one of
those things that very much from its era and that
the very ideas of it are stuck in that in
that past era. And uh but at but it's a
movie that holds up. It's very funny, that's very human.

(01:24:13):
You know, as we've talked about, the big debate is uh,
is the straight cis son the villain or not? You know,
because the in the text, that's what's there. You know,
it's never there's there's never any real negativity about the
gay community and our gay characters. Uh. There the flaws

(01:24:34):
of our gay characters are failings of them as people,
not for their sexuality. Uh. And that's that's what really works.
And it's why I think it's a movie that transcends
uh and and holds up uh and why I wanted
to talk about it because, uh man, this movie is
fucking funny.

Speaker 4 (01:24:52):
And we could talk all day about who the villain
might be, but I'll tell you who the hero definitely is,
and that's Albert. You know, as the media has descended
upon this place in South Beach, we know the senators
in there, we can't find him. We're waiting for him
to come out. It's Albert, who comes up with a solution,
We're gonna sneak the Senator out of here in Drag.
And I know that while they're making this, they knew
that one of the big audience cheer moments, one of

(01:25:15):
the big reactions from the audience would be Gene Hackman
and Drag because that push in through the collected ensemble
on the stage, like the way they push into that
to slowly everybody peels off and they reveal Gene Hackman
in that white gown and that Dame Edna Wig, like,
oh my god, it's so good and even better than that.

(01:25:35):
Like he's obviously a little uncomfortable at first, but like
five minutes later he says, I don't want to be
the only girl not dancing. He's legitimately concerned about the
dress making him look fat and the fact that nobody's
dancing with.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
Him like he has.

Speaker 4 (01:25:50):
This movie is all about the idea that it's about
acceptance not assimilation, Like just because you're not comfortable with whatever,
like you don't have to be you just accept me
over who they are. But this moment here where g
Jackman is like, I don't want to be the only
girl not dancing and then they just push right past
the reporters as we sing we are family, and we

(01:26:10):
go to that wedding scene that plays under the closing
credits with the Conservatives on one side and the Queen's
on the other and everyone's just kind of silently staring
at each other. And that's, you know, between Nathan Lane's
comical sobbing and the Bob Dola's gorgeous like it's so
it's it's it's funny, but it's still uplifting and.

Speaker 1 (01:26:27):
Also a joint Protestant and Jewish wedding that's pretty rad.

Speaker 2 (01:26:31):
Mm hm.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
They have two different ministers, they're minister and a rabbi
up there.

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
It's like the start of a joke, but it's it's
a great ending, very heartfelt movie. I love the hell
out of this film and only means more to me now.
And I'm like you, I'm super excited that we got
to cover this.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
Your pants and soup Eathan and three it's like a
sop whey do you think it was for shot?

Speaker 1 (01:26:50):
I've got to get back to before they eat enough
to see the bottom of the bowl.

Speaker 6 (01:26:56):
Job It's okay, it's fine, it's a shop, it's all.

Speaker 1 (01:27:02):
It stopped gliming, Dot Dan, you what are you standing?
A fut co cow cow damage and that brings us
to the junk food pairing, and for me, I went
with a chuko. It's a Guatemalan street food. It's a
type of sandwich.

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
Generally speaking, it'll be served on a toasted hot dog
bund or similar long narrow bread roll and contain one
or more types of meat. It could be hot dog,
other sausages, steak, chicken, whatever. But along with that you
have guacamalle, mayonnaise, ketchup mustard, and a type of boiled
sliced cabbage that uses a condiment. Now, the word shuko
means dirty in Guatemalan Spanish, but not dirty is in

(01:27:40):
gross or nasty, but rather messy like a dirty martini.
A real hot mess, you know, a gimme one with
everything that includes a ton of sauces, spreads and other condiments.
And thanks to Agador Spartacus and his natural heat, his waatemalanness,
this whole dinner charade was a real hot mess and
had a little bit of everything. Comedically, that's why I
went with a shucko.

Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
I chose a cubano. You know this movie is fucking
South Florida as fuck. And if there's one thing you
can say that Florida gave us that is U that
is absolutely undeniably good, it is Jeb Bush. If there's
two things I love, no, no, no, I love the Jeb

(01:28:23):
Bush jokes in this movie because they've aged better than
most everything else. Because at this point it was kind
of a joke, not kind of a joke. Jeb Bush
had not been elected to the governorship yet in Florida.
This was years before that. You know, his brother had
just been elected and in fact, I don't think had

(01:28:44):
been elected yet when they made this movie. So George Bush,
if I remember correctly, was not. He may have been.
It may have been ninety four. I need a double check.
Might be ninety four that he was in. So he
may have been. But the whole joke is that they're
going to stay with someone who's a family member of
a political family, not even the Jeb that you're thinking of.

(01:29:06):
It is that Jeb, But he wasn't that Jeb yet.
He was just brother to a governor, son to a
former president, and that's just that was what the joke was.
But anyhow, going back Stargrove Cubano is an undeniably amazing
sandwich and a very South Florida experience, and this is

(01:29:28):
very South Florida movie, and I think the best way
to do it is with a Cubana.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
I love that we both went with decadent, ethnic street
sandwiches like that. I mean, yeah, that's so the.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Vibe, right, I mean, that's kind of our thing.

Speaker 1 (01:29:39):
I mean it is.

Speaker 4 (01:29:39):
I will say another line in this movie that has
aged the way that that Champagne in uh, that Champagne
in the Rock fermented into nerve Gas is when Gene
Hackman says people in this country aren't interested in details.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
They only care about headlines.

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
I was like, boy, Gene, you really went ahead and
predicted the dissemination of news on social.

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):
Media, didn't you.

Speaker 4 (01:30:00):
Jesus christ Man, come on. So the movie's so good.
I highly recommend if you haven't seen this movie, watch it.
It's one of the it's still to this day, one
of the funniest movies I've ever seen. It's a beautiful
film about love, and I just I adore it. I
adore everything about it. If you adore some things about
junk food cinema, you can find eleven years of the
show on your favorite podcatcher.

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
You can follow us on social media.

Speaker 7 (01:30:21):
And if you really like the show, I mean, you
really like the show, you.

Speaker 4 (01:30:25):
Like it as much as I desperately want a sandwich
right now, you can go to Patreon dot com slash
Junk Food Cinema financially support the show.

Speaker 1 (01:30:30):
We greatly appreciate it. Cargill, where can people find you
on the interwebs.

Speaker 2 (01:30:33):
You can find me on Blue Sky at c Robert
Cargill do Blue Skied out social You can find my
latest movie The Gorge wherever you or Vice wherever you
can find it on an a Apple Plus. You can
find the trailer for my next film, Black Phone two
wherever you watch your trailers. And you can pick up
my latest book, which is coming out next month, all

(01:30:56):
the actual lead behind from Subterranean Press.

Speaker 1 (01:30:59):
Awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:30:59):
You can find I mean on the social media is
at Brag Guys Salisbury or at Junk Food Cinema. And yeah,
that's it, guys, A big hand for our girls, ladies
and gentlemen. We've come to the end of our show.
You are family too, Please sing along.

Speaker 7 (01:31:31):
It's just such a peace to everybody