Nightbreed (1990) with Kev Dooley

Brian is joined by JFC producer Kev Dooley as they descend into Midian to discuss the wild ride (and even wilder story) that is Clive Barker's Nightbreed! 


There is no greater demonic temptation...than becoming a studio head. 


Please consider supporting Kev's short Terms & Conditions! 

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
That's a mean junk and watching Rabbish.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
You gonna come out.

Speaker 3 (00:03):
And stop me?

Speaker 4 (00:22):
All right?

Speaker 2 (00:22):
This is Dick Miller. If you're listening to Junk Food Cinema.

Speaker 5 (00:27):
Who are these guys?

Speaker 6 (00:45):
Johnny get angry, Johnny get mad, because Junk Food Cinema
is going to Midian in a handbasket. That's right to
the weekly Cult Exploitation Film Cast, brought to you by
That is the Law dot com dot.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
Com dot com.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
Dot fuck the Law. I want meat.

Speaker 6 (01:03):
This week, Cargill was feeling a little ripe, so he
went to take a nice long bath for met and
in his stead, we have a very special guest. This
is someone that you don't know, the person behind the
curtain of JFC, our graphic designer at Times social media website, overlord, researcher, you.

Speaker 5 (01:21):
Name it, he has done it. This is my like.

Speaker 6 (01:24):
I am so happy that that this person is finally
able to join us for the podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:29):
Please welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
keV Dooley, Hey, what's up, everybody. Nice to be on
the air.

Speaker 5 (01:36):
He ain't natural, he's night breed.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
That's right, man.

Speaker 6 (01:40):
I am so fucking excited to talk about this movie
for so many reasons. But if you would like to
hear us excited to talk about other movies, we have
eleven years of the short Horseshit on your favorite podcast.
You can follow us on social media Junk Food Cinema
at pretty much every platform.

Speaker 5 (01:54):
And if you really like the show.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
I mean, if you really like the show, there you go.

Speaker 6 (01:58):
If you like it as much as there are there
are multiple multiple versions of this film that you can
still purchase. You can go to Patreon dot com slash
Junk Food Cinema financially support the show. We greatly appreciate it.
We are covering a movie today that you know what.
It's interesting to me how sometimes when you watch a
movie for the first time, it misses you, it bounces

(02:20):
off of you, you don't quite get it. And then you
invite someone to be on the show and you and
you're like, what movie would you like to cover? And
they pick that film, and then when you watch it again,
something finally clicks and I'm super excited that we get
to talk about this movie today. But before we get
into what movie we're covering, I would like to talk
a little bit about terms and conditions. No, we're not

(02:44):
making you sign anything to listen to Junk Food Cinema.
I am specifically talking about Kev's short film Terms and Conditions.

Speaker 7 (02:52):
That's right, I am currently in pre production and raising
funds to make a short film. As I said, terms
and Conditions. In a nutshell, the film is a douchey
tech bro who thinks AI can solve all of his problems,
including summoning a demon for him so that he can

(03:12):
get back at the girl at work who friendzoned him.
What he unfortunately comes to realize is that the gender
queer demon that shows up would much rather use this
guy's own technology to just drive him insane.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So yeah, that's Terms and Conditions.

Speaker 7 (03:29):
And like I said, we are raising funds right now
to move into production so I can pay the incredible
casting crew that I have lined up, and you can
find out more about the project at termsandcns dot com.

Speaker 6 (03:41):
It makes me so happy that you're making this movie,
not just because we're friends, but because I always love
when someone from the JFC family is able to branch
out and do something creative, and this sounds like such
a cool idea. I'm really excited to see how it
comes to life. So that's part of the reason We're
doing this episode as a way to promote your short
film and the crowdfunding you're doing for said short film,

(04:03):
but also because I could think of no finer way
to ring in the holiday season than to talk about
Night Breed.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Boon and Laurie. They were worn to.

Speaker 4 (04:16):
Stay away see nothing, but but didn't listen.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Now they're no longer lovers.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
For she's become a hunted and he's become one of
the night Freed from the creator of a hell razor.
Night Breed created off starts Friday at theaters everywhere.

Speaker 5 (04:41):
Hello, I mean, okay, hear me out.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
It's a Christmas movie.

Speaker 6 (04:44):
At heart is a Christmas movie. Decker does tie up
that old man with Christmas lights, right right?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
He does?

Speaker 6 (04:51):
Man, oh man, you know what, keV. We're going to
get into that old debate once again. Is Night Breed
a Christmas movie? I'm so sick of having this discussion.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
The Dinner Tale is all this time.

Speaker 6 (05:02):
Oh of course it's a Christmas What I mean, it's
not like we're talking about Silent Night, Deadly Night for
the initiation, which is absolutely not a Christmas movie. Night
Breed is a Christmas movie, and I think we all
just need to accept that.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Agreed, I'm putting it in the annual rotation from this
point on.

Speaker 6 (05:19):
There you go absolutely right between Christmas Vacation and a
Christmas story. Night Breed, absolutely silent Night Breed, deadly Night Breed.
We can make this work. We can absolutely make this work.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
We can do this.

Speaker 6 (05:32):
No, this is, of course, the nineteen ninety American dark
fantasy horror film written and directed by Clive Barker, based
on his nineteen eighty eight novella Cabal. So right off
the bat, we've covered a couple of Clive Barker movies
in the past. We've course covered his directorial debut with
hell Raiser, and on that same episode we also talked

(05:53):
about hell Raser two, which is not I believe directed
by Clive Barker, but you know it's still based upon
hell Raiser.

Speaker 5 (06:00):
And then we also have.

Speaker 6 (06:01):
Covered Midnight Meat Train, a movie that he also did
not direct, but is also based on one of his stories.
So we've dipped our toe into the world of Clive Barker,
and somehow that toe did not end up severed and
on a hook.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
I mean, congrats like it was touching good.

Speaker 7 (06:16):
I'm sure I definitely support covering Hell Razer and Hell
Raiser two together. Fun fact about me, I grew up
in a religious home and every time I watched Hell Raser,
I got the ick, and so I never bothered to
watch two. And actually, Brian, it was you at one
point who said, you know, you only watched half the story.
You have to finish the second one, And yeah, I did,

(06:37):
and it like completely changed my outlook on the film.
And yeah, watching one and two together is the only
way to go, because that just tells a nice complete story.

Speaker 6 (06:46):
You know, who all go on on a lemon Hazard
also grew up in a very religious household. Clive Barker
almost certainly, I mean as like as graphic and gnarly
and you know, grizzly as his movies are, they're also
incredibly Judeo Christian coded, and he is maybe the finest
artist in terms of his depiction, his visual representation of

(07:10):
what hell feels like, Like, I don't think anyone does
that better than Clive Barker. And he gets the chance
to do it here just as he did in Hell Raiser.

Speaker 7 (07:17):
Heck, yeah, it turns out those of us with a
little bit of religious trauma, we may have some demons
of our own to exercise, and art ends up being
a really great way for us to do that instead of,
you know, blowing up our personal relationships and things of
that nature.

Speaker 6 (07:31):
I mean, there's arguments to be made for both of
those tactics.

Speaker 5 (07:35):
I'm kidding.

Speaker 6 (07:36):
But you know the other thing, Kevin, Then I want
I want to like turn this over to you to
tell me exactly why you wanted to talk about night
Breed as a way to promote terms and conditions. But
something you know well about me is that I am
a cinema archaeologist, yes, and the thing that I love
is digging through troubled productions, getting to the root of

(08:00):
stories of passion, projects that go off the rails, and
especially movies that are you know, to to borrow from
another very successful podcast that I love, that feel like
blank checks that were supposed to be because of a
massive success and artists had this was supposed to be
their next big thing, and because of either their own hubris,
or studio meddling, or the zeitgeist, or a combination of

(08:24):
all of those things just didn't quite work or.

Speaker 5 (08:28):
Did you work.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
You had to be feasting when you were digging into this.

Speaker 5 (08:31):
One then oh my god. That's the thing.

Speaker 6 (08:33):
Honestly, the first viewing of this movie, as I mentioned,
it did kind of bounce off of me, and I
think that's because Hell Raiser didn't really work for me
for a very very long time. And if you go
back and listen to that episode there, I have a
lot of problems in Cargil. We both had a lot
of problems with just Hell Raiser. It's you know, like
like you said, like we agreed. Watching them Hell Raiser
and hell Razer two together really helped that that process

(08:55):
and helped earn my respect. But it's not something that
I go back to Night Breed. The first time I
saw it, I was just like, yeah, this is not
for me at all. I don't really get this. I
don't really understand it. But in preparation for this episode, man,
is it a fascinating story.

Speaker 7 (09:10):
Yeah, especially when you dig into all three Technically there's
more than that, but all three quote unquote official versions
of the movie that are out.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
There, right, Yes, the three purchasable versions of this movie.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
That's right, that's right.

Speaker 6 (09:24):
So before we get into the history of all that,
because it is a really fascinating story, I want to
know what specifically drew you to want to cover Night
Breed as a way to kind of introduce the audience
to the what you're trying to accomplish with terms and conditions,
like what's the shared DNA here?

Speaker 7 (09:40):
Yeah, I mean, unlike your initial reaction to night Breed.
When I saw Night Breed close to when it came
out in the early nineties, I didn't bounce off of it,
but I also did not understand why I had a
connection to it. Little bit of history for your audience,
As I said, I was raised in a religious home.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
I was a theater kid.

Speaker 7 (10:03):
I did a lot of different things throughout my life,
and then in my early forties, during the COVID lockdown,
actually I had an epiphany and came out as a
non binary gender queer under the trans umbrella, and then
all of a sudden, a lot of things from my
past started to click. And this was one of those

(10:25):
things that I remember watching it and thinking, there's something
about that group of weirdos, those misfits, those outcasts, that
connects with me, and none of the rest of the
world in this movie did.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
And yeah, and so.

Speaker 7 (10:42):
When it comes to terms and conditions, you know, we
have a demon in our piece, which technically the monsters
in Night Breeder not demons, but the design of them
is very much in the world I would love to
live in when we design when we bring our deem
into life. There's also again that that sense of outcastness

(11:07):
that's also in my piece, though in I will say
the outcasts in my piece have a little bit of
a happier ending. But uh there there's also this there's
a lot of queer coding in this surprise surprise made
by a queer filmmaker, and there's also a little bit

(11:29):
of not even a little bit. Uh, there's a lot
of camp to this movie, which is also why maybe
some people bounce off this. But camp is like part
of my soul at this point, and just about anything
I make has that there. So there's a lot in
Night Breed that I think the DNA of terms and

(11:50):
conditions can trace itself back to Night Breed in a
lot of ways.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (11:55):
Actually, I've been writing scripts, not making movies, just writing
scripts as like a creative outlet for ten twelve years now,
and for the longest time, every single time I sat
down to write a horror film, it came out really funny.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
In the end and just a little scary.

Speaker 7 (12:13):
And it wasn't until maybe two or three years ago
I finally sat down and said, all right, we're gonna
we're gonna rain this in. We're gonna pull the camp
back down, and we're gonna make a straight horror film
that's actually gonna.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Freak people out.

Speaker 7 (12:26):
That's not this piece, that's not terms and conditions. This
one is quite amusing, I like to think. But I
have a little feature waiting on me to make it
that is actually really goofy, and I think the junk
food cinema crowd will love it.

Speaker 8 (12:41):
See.

Speaker 6 (12:42):
And here's where I have to admit something pretty embarrassing, keV. We've,
like I say, like I said, we've covered hell Raiser,
We've done Midnight Meat Train, you know, hell Raiser two.

Speaker 5 (12:50):
We've we've flirted with with CLIVEE. Barker quite a bit.

Speaker 6 (12:54):
I'm ashamed to say that I never knew that Barker
himself was gay. I literally was a fact about his life.
Maybe because he was an artist that for a long
time his work just didn't speak to me. Like I said,
Hell Raiser didn't really work for me, this one didn't
work for me. The first time I saw it, and
so I never dug more into who he was. But yeah,

(13:14):
I mean this is this is an artist who you know,
purportedly understood that he was gay by about the age
of eighteen, you know, has been in committed relationships with men,
worked as an escort for a while, and definitely those
themes are alive and well in all of his work,
and I.

Speaker 5 (13:31):
Think with with hell.

Speaker 6 (13:34):
Raiser it's a little bit different because it's it's really
icky to assume that BDSM is the soul is like
the exclusive realm of the queer community, unless you're William
Friedkinn and you're making cruising. That doesn't really make any
fucking sense. Like S three people like to get whipped too,
So it doesn't immediately leap off the screen as like
this is queer coded, although you know, now looking back

(13:55):
on it, there's certainly a lot of that's. I think
that is more exploring the religious side of his upbringing
and Night Breed a thousand percent is exploring the themes
of the challenges and struggles of you know, incorporating queer
culture and the challenges and struggles they're in. And I'm
really excited to delve into that you know, talking about

(14:17):
you know, as you said, you know, finding your group
of misfits, right, and.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
That's what Night Breed is.

Speaker 6 (14:23):
They're they're depicted in the film as monsters because Clive
Barker loves him some monsters, but really what they are
is they're just outcasts. They're just different. And the way
that the society within the movie treats them, and it's
like as soon as they are alerted to their presence,
the hostility and violence enacted upon them feels very much

(14:43):
like the culture that we're unfortunately still you know, thirty
five years later grappling with.

Speaker 7 (14:50):
Yeah, you know, I think we had a little bit
of a break there, and that's honestly probably what led
to me feeling comfortable enough and also my friends and
my family in kind of exploring who I wasn't and
eventually coming out.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
But yeah, we're right back at it now.

Speaker 7 (15:06):
But yeah, I would say at least of Barker's work
that I've watched, and I haven't read a lot of
his stuff, but so talking about his film work, this
is probably the most maybe not explicitly queer queer, but
definitely very intentionally, very much thematically queer out of out

(15:28):
of his his film work.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
I mean it opens with.

Speaker 7 (15:33):
Our protagonists depending on which version you watch, obviously, but
you know, the protagonist has a dream and then is
immediately talking with his you know, within short order, talking
with his therapist, and you get if you've experienced it,
and I know a lot of Gamen in my life
now did experience it, and I do remember having friends

(15:56):
going through it when I was younger. But his therapy
very much, which feels like it's it's basically coded to
be conversion therapy in a lot of ways, and it's
it's not a healthy relationship between Boone and his therapist Decker.
But yeah, and then there's the whole aspect of you

(16:16):
have a counterculture. You have these people that don't fit in,
some of them. Honestly, one of my favorite things is
there's quite a few people you see and Midian that
I mean honestly look pretty normal. They shouldn't be outcasts,
I wouldn't think, but because of who they are and
because of the community that they're a part of, they

(16:38):
are outcasts, right, And so like all of that kind
of plays into, like I said, the sense that there
was something here for me, even when it would take
me another.

Speaker 2 (16:50):
Twenty plus years to come out. But even seeing it then.

Speaker 7 (16:53):
As a young teen, I was like, oh, I don't
know what it is.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
There's something here.

Speaker 7 (16:59):
It's the same way that when I was fifteen, I
remember going to my first midnight screening of a rocky
horror picture show, you know, with the whole performance and
all of that, and I didn't know what was going
on at all, but I knew these were my people,
and so I kept going back, you know, and yeah,

(17:21):
there's a lot a lot there than mine, And there's
a lot there that speaks to people that have actually
lived through things like conversion therapy and being you know,
socially outcast because of just being who they are.

Speaker 6 (17:32):
So yeah, well it's it's conversion therapy. But also I'm
not sure in the DSM five a recognized treatment method
is gaslighting, but that's certainly what the psychologist in this
movie is up to. And also, like something I'd written
down in terms of the queerness of this movie and
understanding that that's at the core of this makes so

(17:55):
many things make sense. For example, if you were just
watching this movie from the outside and you see exactly
what you just described that some of the creatures in
Night Breed are full on, decked out and makeup head
to head to toe monsters, right, like they are absolute creatures.
And then there's others like you said, that just look
like regular people. And I think that you know, if

(18:17):
you're looking at it from the outside and not understanding
the themes that Barker is playing with, you might think, oh,
they must have run out of money, right, like, it
must just be a.

Speaker 5 (18:26):
Situation where right can't afford to put everybody.

Speaker 6 (18:29):
Honestly, though, I think what he's trying to say there
is you know, he's he's speaking to the idea of passing.
Like how how you know when you're on on the
queerness scale, I don't know what to call. You may
be able to speak, maybe you will be able to
speak more to.

Speaker 5 (18:44):
It than I get.

Speaker 6 (18:45):
But like, there are people who you know, are more
out than others, and there are people who, even though
they are part of that community, are you know, not
as comfortable expressing that and therefore are quote unquote passing
more as straight. It's that old thing that you always
hear from bigoted people who you come out to and
they're like, wow, I know you never came off as gay.
You know, that's something that that you always hear, and

(19:07):
it's like, I feel like that's kind of what's going
on with the variations in design among.

Speaker 5 (19:13):
The Night Breed.

Speaker 6 (19:14):
As you you were playing with the idea that you know,
there are people who are out and proud and you
can tell from you know, miles away that this is
this is their their their truth. On the other hand,
there are people that aren't as comfortable expressing that, and
they are they're passing, so they are.

Speaker 5 (19:27):
They look quote unquote like everybody else.

Speaker 6 (19:29):
So I think that I think even that shows an
intentionality that if you're not familiar with the themes that
play here, you're just gonna think is a weakness of
the film.

Speaker 7 (19:39):
One hundred percent agree. And I mean as someone who's
gender queer but lives in a very masculine body, uh
and who works in sometimes conservative circles my day jobs
in tech, you know, there's times when I put on
a a flannel or a checkered h button up shirt

(20:00):
and tuck my hair up into a neat ponytail and
try to look as much like someone else wants me
to look like as possible, and then you know, if
you bump into me at Fantastic Fest.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
I may not even have clothing on, but if I.

Speaker 7 (20:15):
Do, I'll you know, whether I do or not, I'll
be having a great time, and you'll definitely be able
to see that I am a queer individual at that point.
So yeah, I mean that's also something as someone who
unknowingly shapeshift. Yeah, as someone who unknowingly masked for you know,
forty years of their life.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, that's absolutely what Clive is talking about there.

Speaker 6 (20:39):
I love that your more straight codd look is basically
just hipster brownie paper towel man.

Speaker 2 (20:47):
Well.

Speaker 7 (20:47):
I mean, if you look around, I did do a
little bit of heel work during Fantastic Fests this year,
and there's a picture that a friend of mine has
labeled my tech bro drag, and I felt a little
icky because of how well I was able to pull
it off from just the stuff in my closet. But
brownie paper towel guy is if I'm not at work

(21:08):
and I want to look mask that is where I land.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Flannel and jeans and big boots.

Speaker 6 (21:13):
That's been the paradigm of manliness for like fifty years. Like,
I hope the guy that you know initially posed for
that is proud of the fact that he has set
the stereotype for straightness and machismo for fifty years.

Speaker 7 (21:26):
I hope he was super gay. And I'll go one further,
I hope he was a trans man.

Speaker 5 (21:32):
Oh my god, dude, you oh oh. That's gonna turn
some heads at Sterling Cooper Draper Price when they figure
out that that campaign was not what they expected it
to be. Holy shit. I love that.

Speaker 3 (21:43):
After these messages, we'll be right back Alberta.

Speaker 5 (21:47):
There's so much that you had to share with.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
You.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
The world same.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
Not history and all.

Speaker 6 (22:17):
Right, So to break down the plot just a little
bit before we go into the history, because this movie
has a fascinating history. This is a movie about an
unstable mental patient named Aaron Boone, and I already have
to fucking stop. It was so distracted that his name
is Aaron Boone because he shares his name with a

(22:38):
former Yankees player and current manager of the New York Yankees,
and as a Red Sox fan, I reject Aaron Boone
as our hero.

Speaker 2 (22:45):
M fair, fair, All I'm.

Speaker 6 (22:47):
Saying is that you know, the tribes of the Moon
might embrace you, but you better stay the hell out
of Wosta that's all I'm That's all I'm gonna say
about Aaron Boone.

Speaker 5 (22:54):
But he's he is having.

Speaker 7 (22:56):
Personally, I kept thinking, if they'd made this five or
six years later, it would have been David Boriann's in
that role, because I swear to god, the guy's a
proto David booriann.

Speaker 5 (23:04):
Oh my god, you're so right, Oh my god.

Speaker 6 (23:07):
Oh and he's basically the angel of this group to
oh man, oh wow, I did not see that coming.

Speaker 5 (23:14):
That's interesting. But basically, he's.

Speaker 6 (23:16):
Having these dreams and visions of this place called Midian
and these dark presences that live there, and he is
sharing this with his psychologists, who leads him to believe
that he is actually a serial killer responsible for a
number of family slayings that have been taking place in
the area. And uh, it's hurt, you know, he's he
kind of goes on the run. Once he is convinced

(23:38):
by his psychologists that he's been carrying out this murders.

Speaker 5 (23:40):
He goes on the run. One thing leads to another.

Speaker 6 (23:42):
He gets killed by police and is whisked away to
this place called Midian, which is an abandoned cyme. It's
it blow, an abandoned cemetery with his tribe of monsters
and outcasts known as the night Breed. And the night
Breed are trying to stay hidden from the world outside
and of course Boone's presence, as so often happens in

(24:02):
stories like this, I feel like Joseph Campbell is just
writing notes furiously right now. It leads to a lot
of conflict because his arrival leads to the discovery of
this place, and conflict ensues with the upper world, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
And there is also a psychologist slash serial killer running around.
That is the basic gist of Night Breed, if you'll

(24:29):
indulge me, I think we should talk about the history
of this movie, because, like I said, it's just a
fascinating story and it goes back real quick.

Speaker 7 (24:37):
Though, I feel like we absolutely have to call out
who does play the psychiatrists slash as we come to
know serial killer who's trying to frame Boone. David Cronenberg
plays Decker, and he is an absolute delight in this role.

Speaker 6 (24:54):
Cronenberg is doctor Philip K. Dicker. Yeah, he's named after
Philip K. Dick and the character of Decker from Blade Runner.
I think it's funny all the locations in this movie
were shot in Alberta. Uh, that's also where the novella
tech plays, and they cast David Cronenberg in a lead role.
Does it get any more Canadian than that?

Speaker 7 (25:15):
Well, the funny thing is that's the reason they cast
David Cronenberg. The whole reason he knows Clive Barker is
because he reached out to him to say, Hey, you
wrote this novella about where I'm from and you got
it right and I love it. And that's actually how
they came to know each other and how Kronenberg ended
up working on this film.

Speaker 5 (25:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (25:35):
Can you imagine reaching out to Clive Barker and the
first thing you say to him is like, I appreciate
the authenticity by which you represented Alberta all in this story.
You could get all the feedback you could give him
about his work, and you're like, man, you know what
I really respect about you, Clive Barker.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
You're Alberta.

Speaker 6 (25:56):
You really nailed Alberta and that is what matters. A Like,
what the fucking fuck man? That is absolutely crazy. So
to get into the history of this movie a little bit,
you have to go back to September of nineteen eighty seven,
when Hell Raiser is released. That was Clive Barker's directorial debut,
based on his novel The hell Bound Heart, and it

(26:17):
was a massive hit, so much so that studios got
into a bidding war for his next film. And during
the UK publicity tour for hell Raiser, you know, as
keV mentioned, that's when he meets David Cronenberg, because yeah,
Dead Ringers, Croneberg is also kind of going around and

(26:37):
promoting at the same time they meet for the first time.
Cronenberg's a fan of Barker's work, and he was impressed
by his work on Cabal, which of course Nightbreed is
based on, again just because of the accuracy of Northern Alberta,
which which is where it takes place. But Kroneberg convinces

(26:57):
Barker to make a deal with Morgan Creek Productions, which
had offered Barker a three picture deal, and Kroneberg told
Barker that the founders of Morgan Creek, James Robinson and
Joe Roth, were the most collaborative producers he had worked
with up to that point in his career, and that's
why you know Barker should sign with them. Kroniberg goes
so far as to say that, you know, if he

(27:19):
makes this deal with Morgan Creek, that he himself, Kroneberg,
will happily be an actor in the film of whatever capacity.
That's how we get him playing uh doctor Decker. So yeah,
Barker makes a three picture deal with Morgan Creek, and
the three pictures were supposed to be Night Breed, Night
Breed two, and an adaptation of the short story Son
of Celluloid from the Book of Blood Volume three. Fucking sidebar,

(27:49):
are you familiar with Son of Celluloid Book of Blood three?

Speaker 5 (27:52):
That that particular Barker work.

Speaker 6 (27:55):
I am not tell me about it, So I want
I'm gonna tell you the plot, okay, and you you
tell me how awesome a movie version sounds like it
would be, okay. The premise of Son of Celluloid is
that an escape convict dies behind a film screen while
hiding from the police, and over the months following his death,
a cancerous tumor in his body actually gains sentience from

(28:18):
the emotions of the cinema's audience and comes to life.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Oh my god, right, I need another pair of pants.

Speaker 6 (28:25):
I'm sorry, I need to Uh yeah, like, I want
to see that so badly.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Now, Yeah, that would have been an amazing film.

Speaker 6 (28:34):
Who's the guy that directed, Oh God, damn it. Now
I'm gonna forget the name of the movie, Holy Motors.
The guy that directed Holy Motors, I feel like should
also direct Son of Celluloid.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Leos Carricks corrects, I don't know how to say his name.

Speaker 6 (28:47):
Yeah, that just feels like his wheelhouse and I would
love to see a film adaptation of that. So that
was the three picture deal put in place. And what's
interesting is that when Barker starts adapting Night Breed, he's
in vis it not as one movie, but, as he
called it, the Star Wars of horror films, like this
was gonna be an.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
At He's going to make a trilogy. Yes, it's gonna be.

Speaker 6 (29:10):
So they go into pre production on Night Breed and
Craig Chef Craig Sheffer, I believe is how you pronunce
Scheffer Scheffer?

Speaker 5 (29:16):
I'm not sure?

Speaker 4 (29:17):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (29:18):
He gets cast after Rutger Howard and Christopher Lambert turned
down the role. Evidently, Sheffer met Barker at a critic
screening of Hell Raiser and he got the invite to
that screening thanks to Stephen King, who he was friends with,
and Sheffer remarked to Barker that he'd love to work
with him in the future, and Barker told his assistant
to send Sheffer a copy of Cabal and that if

(29:38):
he liked it, he told Sheffer, You'll be the lead
of my next film. I honestly think Barker's yeah. I
think Barker's just a bigger fan of Voyage of the
Rock Aliens that he wants to admit.

Speaker 2 (29:48):
I think you may be right. But also, thank you
Stephen King.

Speaker 6 (29:52):
Yes, thank you Stephen King. But also who's not a
fan of Voyage of the Rock Aliens.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Come on, I'm with you on that one.

Speaker 6 (29:57):
Also, I didn't know this. Mark Alman, the lead singer
of Cell, was supposed to play Onaka in this movie,
One of the One of the Night Breed.

Speaker 5 (30:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (30:05):
Eventually that role goes to Simon Bamford, who played Butterball
and hell Raiser. But Allman was apparently a longtime friend
of Barker and had just signed a new contract with
Sony Music, and his management convinced him to reject being
in the film. I don't know why. I guess they
thought his career would be tainted. Sorry, couldn't help it,

(30:26):
could not help it, not even I mean I said sorry,
but I don't actually apologize.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
You're not actually sorry.

Speaker 5 (30:32):
No no, no, no, no, no no no.

Speaker 6 (30:33):
And the origin, the initial drafts of the screenplay. By
the way, we're written by Mark Frost, who's the co
creator of Twin Peaks.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
That's incredible, right, and it works.

Speaker 6 (30:41):
On the production until five days before principal photography when
he had to depart because the pilot of Twin Peaks
was filming at the same time. This movie was so yeah,
you can understand why he departed to work on that,
and and thank god he did because that Twin Peaks
is still foundational television absolutely. And then you know, speaking
of him wanting to make this the Star Wars of Horror,

(31:04):
Barker gets Ralph mcquarie, who was the art director on
all three of the original Star Wars trilogy because they
were longtime friends. Mcquarie agrees to work for Scale on
the film and does all of the matte paintings and
the backgrounds and all these things that would have cost
double for a normal studio, And he was able to

(31:25):
basically work for Scale because they were friends. So all
of the beautiful, incredible artwork in this film and the
production design, a lot of that is credit to the
legendary Ralph mcquari working on this movie.

Speaker 7 (31:36):
And I mean you can see it in every bit
of this film. It's I would call it gorgeous. I
don't know if everyone else would, but.

Speaker 5 (31:44):
Oh I would.

Speaker 7 (31:45):
Yeah, his work absolutely is gorgeous on this film.

Speaker 5 (31:48):
I love a good Matte painting like that.

Speaker 6 (31:49):
To me, there is nothing better in the cinema of
the seventies through the nineties than a gorgeous Matte painting.

Speaker 7 (31:56):
So I have someone in my life who does not
share that love of Matt paintings. They will go unnamed,
but I do enjoy every time one crops up in
a movie and they pointed out them, like sh yeah,
it's glorious, leave it alone.

Speaker 6 (32:10):
I would love so much if that person's name was Matt,
like just the iron of that, but.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
That would be amazing.

Speaker 5 (32:17):
I'm just saying well.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Again on Night bread trying to make some fe if.

Speaker 6 (32:24):
We jumped to March sixth, nineteen eighty nine, production on
Night Breed begins. Barker's given a budget of eleven million dollars.
So just to give you a contrast, Hell Razor was
made for nine hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
That is a great second film budget bump, right there.
I gill for that.

Speaker 6 (32:39):
We're talking about when we're talking about blank check. This
is the kind of shit we're talking about. But it
also explains why Hell Raser pretty much all takes place
in one murder attic, do you know what I mean?
Couldn't afford a lot of different settings here. We're gonna
stay mostly in the murder Attic. But they're using all
of the sound stages at Pinewood Studios in the UK

(32:59):
right after Tim Burton's finished with them, because they were
making Batman right before they started filming Night Breed and
that shit. Holy Like there's a lot of crossover actually
between the two that we'll get to, but just the
idea that it's like, Okay, Batman is wrapped now Night Breed,
like Pinewood Studios must have gotten whiplashed, you know what
I mean, Like that's fucking incredible too.

Speaker 7 (33:19):
I mean, you know, there's some there's some overlap in
maybe not themes, but vibes. Maybe I'd say, you know,
Tim Burton's Batman is pretty pretty gothic for a superhero film,
you know, so it is, I feel the horror vibes.

Speaker 3 (33:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (33:37):
Well, and it doesn't hurt that Danny Elfman literally scores
both movies.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Sure, it's like he just lived there.

Speaker 7 (33:43):
I mean, I'm sure the composer does not hang out
in the studios while they're shooting. But yeah, everything he
worked on was just there at Pinewood for a few years.

Speaker 6 (33:52):
There's a part of me that hopes to God that
Danny Elfman was just living in the rafters of Pinewood
with a cape and cowl, thinking he was actually man.

Speaker 2 (34:02):
I would I would love that.

Speaker 5 (34:04):
I want pictures hell, yes, hell yeah.

Speaker 7 (34:08):
If I'm not mistaken, this is the first film that
Danny Elfman did that that he scored that wasn't a Tim.

Speaker 5 (34:16):
Burton film, right, yeah, no, because I mean it's yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:22):
So he did Pee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, and Batman, so
you're right.

Speaker 5 (34:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (34:26):
Uh, those are his three credits before this, apart from
being like the musical arranger on Forbidden Zone. But that's
that's not not the same as being the film composer.
So yes, this is the first time he is not
under the wing of Tim Burton. Again, the Batman jokes
are just gonna keep coming and there's nothing we can
do about it.

Speaker 5 (34:42):
Let's all just accept it. Uh.

Speaker 6 (34:45):
So that they're shooting Night Breed. Uh And the the
thing that the thing that I keep coming up in
the research with is how like daunting the actual filming
was about. You know, Sheffer said it was the most
physically demanding thing he's ever worked on.

Speaker 5 (34:59):
The ho and hours of makeup that he had a
bad allergic.

Speaker 6 (35:02):
Reaction to because because this is back in the day
when the prosthetics were all oil based.

Speaker 5 (35:08):
Sure, so he had developed.

Speaker 6 (35:10):
A really bad skin allergy that like kept him up
at night and was having to Apparently he and a
lot of other cast members were taking uppers to keep
them awake during filming.

Speaker 7 (35:20):
This is yet another film that cocaine made.

Speaker 5 (35:22):
I hear you, pure Colombian median, don't worry about it.

Speaker 7 (35:30):
But yeah, I mean you look at how many people
are in full prosthetics or even just partial prosthetics, which
take time. Yeah, You've got people that had to sit
in a makeup chair what six seven, eight hours a
day and then go shoot a full day.

Speaker 6 (35:43):
So yeah, and then take a couple hours just to
get it off, you know, like that's that's you're not
scheduling a lot of time for sleep in between those activities.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
I look forward to that part of shooting my phone.

Speaker 7 (35:56):
Just torturing Victory because that I'm not playing the demon.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
Well that yeah, that's fair, that's fair.

Speaker 3 (36:01):
They will warn to stay away.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Nothing.

Speaker 6 (36:06):
But but I think the biggest event that happens during
filming halfway through Joe Roth again, one of the founders
of Morgan Creek, who is a producer on this movie,
becomes the new chairman of twentieth Century Fox.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Oh that should be fine, you see.

Speaker 6 (36:22):
And that's what's crazy is that you would think that
if if someone who was already behind your project becomes
the new head of a big studio, it's it's you know,
I think the death knell for a lot of passion
projects is when it's greenlit by a studio and there's
a regime change during production. But you would think if
the regime if the person working, yeah, you're the new regime,

(36:46):
you're the incoming regime. You think that would bode well.
But we're talking about a bigger studio, more shareholders, a
completely different philosophy and suddenly Clive Parker, this very singular artist,
is being asked to make concessions, the first one being
we're changing the title from Cabal to Nightbreed because night
Breed is a more commercial title. And I feel like

(37:09):
that's the Canner moment here, that's the Faustian deal with
the Devil is like, all we're gonna do is change
the title, Right, that's it. Just make this one little
change and then everything else will stay the same. Spoiler alert,
it does not stay the same.

Speaker 7 (37:21):
Yeah, there's an alternate universe where he pushes back on
the title, they hear what he's actually saying, and he
just gets to make the movie he wants to make.
But also, I've never understood the math or the marketing
wizardry in stuff like this, because Cabal and night Breed

(37:42):
neither one of them seem more marketable or more mainstream.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Than the other.

Speaker 7 (37:46):
Yeah, say you tell me night Breed, and I've never
seen this film, and you don't tell me anything about it.
I might think it's about sex workers or I don't know. No,
I'm gonna stick with that. I'm definitely gonna think it's
about sex workers night Breed, Right, Yeah, Cabal I'm gonna
get to exactly what this movie winds up being a
lot quicker, So I don't know.

Speaker 6 (38:08):
Well, it's like it's like the underwear nomes in South Park,
Like somebody just had a big whiteboard that said phase one,
night breed, phase two, phase three profit, Like.

Speaker 5 (38:17):
What how did? How do? How does that word equal money?

Speaker 6 (38:19):
I don't understand unless they're hoping the creepers show up
for the movie about sex workers. Well, I assume if
it's called night Breed or dressed like Batman, just Hooker's.

Speaker 5 (38:27):
Dressed like Batman. Of course, of course, but that's not
what the movie is.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
But we'll talk about what the movie is.

Speaker 6 (38:34):
We'll talk about what the movie actually is if not
Hooker's dressed like Batman. This was originally slated for Halloween
week in nineteen eighty nine, and I'm like, man.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
It would have killed Tuck.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
That would have killed on Halloween. Damn it.

Speaker 6 (38:46):
But of course the test screenings don't enthuse twentieth century Fox,
and it's unclear whether it's at this time or from
the start or when uh when Joe Roth becomes the
head of twentieth century Fox. But Barker does not have
final cut on this movie, So I don't know when
that happens or if that was part of the original deal.

(39:07):
But after the negative test screenings Fox, because they had
final cut over the film, they demand that Barker do
some reshoots.

Speaker 5 (39:15):
So they're going into late October eighty nine.

Speaker 6 (39:16):
With these reshoots, they want to make it more aligned
as a standard slasher film, and I feel like that's
the biggest problem is that the marketing department sees this
as a slasher movie. And the slasher element is such
a fucking red hair. It's not just a small part
of the story. It's a red herring in the story.

Speaker 7 (39:33):
It is, as we mentioned, not being in the DSN
gas Lighting. Yeah, the whole point of the slasher.

Speaker 2 (39:41):
Part is to make Boone.

Speaker 7 (39:48):
The patsy for Decker's crimes, and it has nothing to
do with anything that anyone would want to see in
this movie, right, Like, if you're here for the queer
coding and the outcast, then the monsters and Clive Barker's insanity,
that's not a slasher.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
Don't get me wrong, I adore.

Speaker 7 (40:07):
A slasher films have my whole life, but yeah, marketing
this film is a slasher. And then showing up thinking
that's what you're watching. I mean, it's no wonder I'm
assuming did not do well at the box office.

Speaker 6 (40:21):
Well, and I mean, if you're gonna push this as
a slasher spoiler alert alert, spoiler alert, you reveal like
fifteen minutes in that the slasher is actually the psychologist
played by David Cronenberg.

Speaker 5 (40:35):
So movie would be over at that point.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Turns out it's a really short film.

Speaker 6 (40:39):
Yeah, it's a short film, much like Terms and Conditions.
So that's why we chose to compare the two. But no,
they push it. They want to push it as a
standard slasher and move the release date to Valentine's Day
nineteen ninety. You want to talk about an atmosphere shift,
This is gonna be Halloween eighty nine, yes, no, no,
we met Valentine's Day ninety No?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Oh yeah. I mean there are, point of fact, a
slasher film, no less.

Speaker 7 (41:08):
There are films that have pulled off a horror release
at Valentine's Day, and there is a certain audience for that.
But I don't think nineteen ninety there was as much
of an audience for that, And I mean it definitely
they would not have wanted this movie.

Speaker 6 (41:23):
I don't think to me, it would make more sense
to release this at Easter, because it is it's a
movie with a savior complex, so I would have as a.

Speaker 7 (41:32):
Small cult following someone who's been resurrected, you know what.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
I like the cut of your.

Speaker 6 (41:37):
Jip, multiple references to the Old Testament, Like, there's so
much of this movie that would have worked better Easter
than Valentine's Day.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
That's all I'm gonna say.

Speaker 6 (41:46):
But yeah, I really like the fact is when you
move it to Valentine's Day. Now it's opening up against
Tony Scott's Revenge. Not a huge juggernaut to go up against,
but sure it also is up against the wide release
of Cinema Paradiso, which When's when's the Oscar for Best
International Film?

Speaker 5 (42:02):
So I mean that one is a big deal.

Speaker 7 (42:05):
Yeah, it didn't really stand a chance between that and
Barker losing final cut. By the way, making a note,
if my first feature takes off, demand final.

Speaker 6 (42:14):
Cut, absolutely and don't let them spin it to where
they like give you like Adobe final cut, Like no, no, no,
I wasn't asking for software.

Speaker 5 (42:24):
I was asking to control my movie. God damn it,
that's right.

Speaker 7 (42:28):
Yeah, And I mean, if you watch all three versions
of this film, which are again all three versions you
can buy, they are night and day difference, I would
say my preference is the director's cut. The cabal cut's great,
but it's also rough around the edges because it's not
finished and right and a little bloated. I think Barker

(42:49):
hits everything he wants to hit in.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
The director's cut.

Speaker 5 (42:52):
I would agree with that.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
After these messages, we'll be right back.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
This is the story of a guy, a girl, and
an alien, a share a mania, and two incredible bands,
and the one night.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
They will always remember how lad.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
Voyage of the Rock Aliens rated.

Speaker 6 (43:26):
From all of this, from this, from the history so far,
what you're probably understanding, what Barker definitely understood, is that
the studio did not understand.

Speaker 5 (43:35):
Night Breed, not at all.

Speaker 6 (43:36):
Yeah, it had no movie stars, it was violent, it
had elements of fantasy and horror.

Speaker 5 (43:40):
They saw that as a weakness.

Speaker 6 (43:42):
Barker saw that as the strength of this movie, and
I feel like it's fans do too. But when they
end up marketing Night Breed as a slasher film, uh,
you know, with these television teasers, they're confusing and doesn't
represent it well.

Speaker 5 (43:54):
And honestly, I think I think this.

Speaker 6 (43:56):
Is one of the worst examples of a marketing team
just fucking a movie because the heads of marketing of
both Fox and Morgan Creek didn't understand the movie. The
head of marketing Morgan Creek never watched the movie all
the way through because it quote disgusted and distressed him.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
What that's just weird.

Speaker 6 (44:13):
Man, You are marketing the movie, you have to fucking
watch it.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
First of all, you have to watch it. Secondly, uh, disgusted?
Come on, yeah, a lot of those monsters are really hot.

Speaker 5 (44:24):
Just to the record, I would love to know what's man.

Speaker 6 (44:27):
You know what, I don't want to know what specifically
disgusted this person because I don't like the answer I'm
gonna get. But they they basically, the two marketing heads
get together and they're like, look, we're only gonna attach
this to one movie. We're gonna attach this trailer to
one movie, and that's War of the Roses. Like, can
you imagine you go see fucking War of the Roses? Yeah,
and the trailer for night Braid hits You're like, what

(44:48):
the fuck is? And the trailers pushing it as a
slasher movie. So you go see War of the Roses
and then all of a sudden, they're promoting a slasher
movie from Valentine's Day and you're like, what the fuck?

Speaker 5 (44:58):
What the fuck? I mean?

Speaker 2 (44:58):
I do want to kill my now? Uh oh, I
guess I'll go see this.

Speaker 7 (45:03):
No, Also, you haven't seen War of the Roses yet,
so you don't you're not in that headspace.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
That didn't make any sense.

Speaker 6 (45:10):
What I just And then then they won't even show
the television spots until after ten pm on either cable
or network broadcast shows, So like they are burying this
fucking movie before it even comes out.

Speaker 7 (45:22):
Yeah, absolutely buried though I mean that probably did find
its audience in those timeslots, but also yeah, buried. You
were not going to get a mainstream audience to come
see it, if that's what you're doing.

Speaker 5 (45:33):
They damned this movie to Midian before it ever came out.

Speaker 6 (45:36):
They buried it in a cemetery and hoped no one
would ever like it's I understand that it sucks for
the movie. I understand that Barker got a raw deal,
but it is so fucking fitting that this is how
the movie itself was treated, because it's about the movie
itself is about a group of people who are treated
exactly this way.

Speaker 7 (45:55):
Yeah, it turns out if you queer code something really
well and you're talking about not being accepted, you might
also not be accepted.

Speaker 4 (46:05):
Who'd have thought if you're coming to Edmonton this summer
called one eight hundred four six three four six sixty
seven for a valuable coupon book and the menu for
Summer Fun Calendar Edmonton.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
So much to choose from.

Speaker 6 (46:16):
Let's go back to the movie for just a second here.
So it's been a while since I took a statistics class,
but as I remember it, there's mean, midian and mode. Correct,
that's how you you look at groups of numbers. That
sounds right, Okay, just wanted to make sure. So we
must be no wait, no, no, no, that's wrong. We must
be talking about the WWE wrestler Midian, formerly one of
the Hillbilly Tag team the Godwins, later a member of

(46:36):
Undertaker's ministry.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
Of course, that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Yes, that's what we're talking about. That's a deep cut
for wrestling fans.

Speaker 6 (46:47):
Right right, I put I put my brain in a
little jar and brought it into the ring with me.

Speaker 5 (46:53):
But I h I love that we've got Kronerberg in this.

Speaker 6 (46:55):
I love that he is just chewing fucking scenery like
he's got an extra mouth on top of his head
to chew the scenery with, because that would be how
Kronenberg operates.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Of course.

Speaker 5 (47:03):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (47:04):
And I love I love dude that that scene where
it feels like something kind of a Michael Mann film
where he kills that family, and I just I love
the fucking design of that mask that looks like kind
of half scarecrow, but the mouth is crooked and the
opening is kind of off to the side. It just
it's really unsettling and it's so well done.

Speaker 7 (47:25):
I mean, I would watch a slasher film with that
character as the villain. Yeah, that mask is great, love it.
Buttons for eyes. I have no idea how he saw
in it, but you know.

Speaker 6 (47:37):
No no idea. But definitely my next Halloween costume, I
think is what I've decided.

Speaker 7 (47:43):
I'll go as shun a saucy. Then we can kind
of we can make it a theme.

Speaker 6 (47:48):
So I literally had to make myself a little monster manual,
Like we're we're not recording an episode, we're playing a campaign.
Of D and D and I think I'm up with
a monster manual, of course, because I I had trouble.
So Shonasasi is the porcupine woman according to my notes
here correct yes, played by Christine McCorkindale. I will say

(48:09):
I wanted her more involved. That's my only gripe about her,
Like she was so good. Like the makeup across the
board in this movie is stunning, so fucking good.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Just next level.

Speaker 7 (48:19):
It was incredible, and that poor woman had to sit
in a makeup chair for six to seven hours to
have a small role in the film.

Speaker 5 (48:26):
Unfortunately, that poor woman was getting made up for a
demented version of Zubalie Zoo. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (48:32):
Like, Yeah, she looks like she's in the version of
Cats that I might have actually enjoyed.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I'd watched that version of Cats for sure.

Speaker 6 (48:40):
But I mean that again, the variations, because you've got
you've got this this porcupine woman, You've got this great,
you know dude with almost predator drades, and then you've
got then you've got like a guy that looks like
he's part of the shunting from society. Like there's just
so like the variation of characters and the way that
each one is brought to life. I can't imagine was

(49:01):
an easy task for this special effects team, but they
absolutely knock this out of the park.

Speaker 7 (49:08):
And then some of them are just cool looking in
the background and you never even figure out like what
actually makes them monstrous. So it's like there's Moonface Guy,
and I mean he's in it all, but you know
there's there's a guy with blue skin and big like
traditional demon horns, and just Barker and his team just
went wild on this and just made.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Everyone they could think of.

Speaker 7 (49:31):
They even brought in a little hell Razor vibe with
the guy who peels his own skin off and runs
around with not a lot of skin.

Speaker 2 (49:37):
Most of the movie.

Speaker 7 (49:39):
But yeah, I and that is the one nice thing
about having the director's cut and the cabal cut available
is now you get to see more of them, You
get they get to breathe a little bit as characters,
they get to have a little more to do, and yeah,
just the makeup effects on this art just absolutely stunning.

Speaker 6 (49:57):
So I have to shout out Moonface Guy that you made,
whose character's name is Kinsky played by Nicholas Fans because
He's a big part of the marketing. He's on all
the posters like front and center, right next to Craig Sheffer.
It was so distracting to me because of who I
am and the things that I'm interested in. Because he
looks like Mac Tonight with a tan.

Speaker 2 (50:21):
I kept wanting him to hand me a big Mac.

Speaker 5 (50:23):
Dude. I know a lot of you are going, who
the fuck is Mac Tonight? Ask your parents?

Speaker 6 (50:27):
Uh, one of the weirder spokes characters that McDonald's ever created.
And that's fucking saying something because they had not one,
but two characters at one point with with big max
for heads, so it's hard to stand out. Like the
night I tell you, what's a night breed? McDonald's land
characters are a fucking night breed.

Speaker 7 (50:46):
Unto themselves, they out of context, horrifying, all of them.

Speaker 6 (50:51):
Did you keV? Did you know that Grimace? The reason
he looks like that is he supposed to be a
taste bud?

Speaker 2 (50:57):
No?

Speaker 6 (50:58):
Really, Wow, But you want to talk about cronenberg es
purple a syentient purple taste Bud is Kronenberg shit.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
That is straight Cronenberg shit. I love it.

Speaker 5 (51:12):
I don't. I am not on board for any of this.

Speaker 6 (51:14):
I feel like, as a child, I should have had
to give consent to have that shit forced.

Speaker 5 (51:18):
Into my eyeballs.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Absolutely.

Speaker 6 (51:21):
And then on top of that, you got Mac Tonight
coming down like George Mellier is really hungry for a
fucking big Mac and sending this moon headed monstrosity down
to sing cru like croon tunes at me about how
he really wants a big mact is fucking weird. Our
childhood was weird. McDonald's is weird. They are a night
breedout to themselves and I will not let go of this,

(51:42):
you know.

Speaker 7 (51:42):
Honestly, yet another reason why this movie connected with me.
I grew up in a weird time and I connected
to weird stuff all along the way.

Speaker 6 (51:49):
So see, I think that was the missing piece for
me Initially, keV, I didn't accurately effectively connect Night Breeze.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
You didn't make the McDonald's connection, right.

Speaker 7 (51:58):
You know, if the marketing team had been on their game,
this could have been a great happy meal series.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
I'm just saying, I'm loving it.

Speaker 6 (52:07):
Look, I uh, I had to keep you going down
this this monster manual again. You mentioned the guy who
pulls his own skin off this is a character narsis
and we I love that we meet him earlier in
the movie and he just looks like a deadhead. He
just looks like somebody who would be a roadie for
like Ario Speedwagon. Oh yeah, and he's but he's also

(52:29):
talking about Midian. And this is our point in the
story where Boone is like, I'm trying to find Midian.
Midian's reaching out to me in my dreams. What do
you know about it? And he just becomes convinced that
if if he shows fealty to I don't know, I
can't remember the exact reason, but he gets it into
his head that if he rips the skin off his skull,
he'll be accepted into Midian, which, of course he just dies.

(52:50):
But man, the fuck just watching him peel off that it's.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
Just mid conversation, Hey.

Speaker 7 (52:56):
Bud, do you know where Midian's at? And you hold
on and he just starts peeling his skin off, and
you're like, WHOA hold up?

Speaker 6 (53:01):
Man, if I had a nickel for every time this
has happened to me, but I'd have a nickel. But yeah,
like this, I won't say it's realistic because I don't
actually know what it would look like if someone peeled
the skit. But it seems like it's got that signature
Clive Barker. Clive Barker musculature, do you know what I mean?
Like the guy is the guy was clearly a big

(53:23):
fan of mister Goodbody, and the big thing that comes
across in a lot of his movies is musculature and
just like pulling the flesh off and what's underneath. And
this is that moment, his hell raiser moment within Night Breed,
and I fucking love it.

Speaker 7 (53:37):
I think we figured out when the head of Fox
Marketing walked out, actually this was probably that moment.

Speaker 6 (53:43):
He's like, nah, this is the part that distressed him. Yeah,
abso fucking lily. But this is Hugh Ross from Trainspotting.
He was also in Bronson, He's also in Hannibal Rising.
He's got a really really good career in both theater
and film. But going down the monster list a little
bit further, I mentioned the guy with the predator, Drades Pelquin,
played by Oliver Parker, and a lot of these a

(54:05):
lot of the folks playing the monsters in this are
British stage.

Speaker 5 (54:09):
Actors who had worked with Barker before so it.

Speaker 6 (54:11):
Really does feel like he is building his own little
society within the movie.

Speaker 7 (54:16):
I also like to think that's where a lot of
the camp comes in. It is because he did pull
in theater actors and not film, and so they had
these big, over the top performances.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
That they can bring to life.

Speaker 6 (54:27):
The one that breaks my heart the most is the
one that was supposed to be played by the lead
singer of Soft cell ONAKA, who's just this sweet dude
with a dog like he doesn't appear again, passing whatever, Like,
he doesn't appear monstrous at all. But he's the one
that gets brutally murdered in a scene that feels like
a hate crime, like every single bit of sound design

(54:49):
in that, the staging of it, the people who are
committing it, dragging him out because you know that the
sunlight does kill many of the night breed, so that
they drag him out into the sun and he just explodes.
Because even oh, we are finding pathos with these characters,
even though we are connecting to them on an emotional level,
and the movie is queer coded and trying to get
at the heart of a lot of those issues, it's

(55:10):
also still a horror film.

Speaker 5 (55:11):
And people fucking explode. Mm hm, well, I.

Speaker 7 (55:13):
Mean and almost no scene is more career coded than this,
because when they are done committing their hate crime, the
uh people who would be the stand ins for the
Straits just kind of shrug and walk away like, oh, okay,
we're done here. Like also like something crazy and horrific
and you know, supernatural happens, forget about all that.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
They just they brutally murder this person who's not hurting.

Speaker 5 (55:37):
Anyone and then just doing nothing.

Speaker 7 (55:39):
Yep, because he's not one of us. This is okay,
and they just walk away.

Speaker 6 (55:43):
There's an amazing moment where this detective character, who I
will talk about as we break down the different versions
of the film, he goes up to is this, these
crimes are being carried out by like a local sheriff's
department and the posse that they put together of you know,
local idiots, and so it's very very conservative coded. Is like,
these are fucking even though this is Canada, these are rednecks, right.

Speaker 7 (56:05):
Oh they I mean they might as well have been
any small town in America with the amount of hardware
they pull out when they put together this posse.

Speaker 6 (56:14):
I believe Wayne would refer to them as dejons. These
are dejons from upcountry. And so again we have very
much the the conservative Middle America redneck coded characters who
are attacking and brutally murdering the queer coded characters like,
you don't have to do a lot of uh, you
don't have to do a lot of work. A lot
of it's done for you. But uh so one of

(56:36):
these share I think I think it's one of the
sheriff's deputies. The detective goes up to him and he goes,
you know, he wasn't hurting anybody. He was just it
seems like he wasn't dangerous, he was just different, And
that sheriff's character said, isn't that enough reason? Mm hm,
And I'm like, that's the most telling line in the
entire movie, Like, if you didn't sink up on any
of this before, that's the line that should tell you

(56:56):
where exactly we are.

Speaker 2 (56:58):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (56:58):
Yeah, And you can make a lot of a lot
of parallels to the way that a lot of minority
groups are treated. But given that it's a gay filmmaker
and writer, Yeah, it's just it's right there. It's not
even subtext at this point. He knows writers who use subtext,
and they're all cowards.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
They're all cowards.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
How oke last night to the sound of thing, How
far off?

Speaker 8 (57:24):
I said, and wondered, start at Howmu a song from
nineteen sixty two.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
And a funny how the Night Breeds.

Speaker 6 (57:35):
So the leader of this group, this group of night
breed is I love that his name is Dirk Lylesburg.
Like all these other characters are Narsis and shun A,
Sassa and Peloquin. And it's like, Hi, I'm Dirk Lylesburg.
I sell insurance, and yeah, I sell insurance in moose Jaw,
I'm Dirk Lylesburg. Like it doesn't make any fucking sense.

(57:56):
But it's played by the legendary Doug Bradley Pinhead himself,
because why wouldn't he be in Clive Barker's next movie?

Speaker 2 (58:03):
And I love that this is just Night and Day
from Pinhead. I mean, you hear Doug.

Speaker 7 (58:08):
Bradley playing a monster in another Clive Barker film that's
not Hell Raiser. Oh, I bet that's going to be
like crazy, it's gonna be over the top, it's going
to be insane. And then Dirk, much like the insurance
salesman you assumed him to be. Is kind of soft
spoken and kind and patient and you know, anxious, but

(58:29):
definitely not not Pinhead at all.

Speaker 6 (58:32):
No, he looks like a character from Never Ending Story, Yeah,
more than you know from Hell Raiser. Like he's basically
Zeus with gills.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, he does have cheap gills, but other than that,
you know, he just kind of looks like a nice
old man and he's really patient with people. Yeah. Yeah,
not Pinhead.

Speaker 5 (58:49):
Yeah, I mean, Barker basically told Bradley to play Lylesberg
as a status quo Moses who did not successfully lead
the Israelites out of Egypt. So again, we are absolutely
n't coded in this movie too.

Speaker 6 (59:02):
In terms of production design though, I think one of
my favorite elements of this because the production design in
this movie, like the world building that they do is
so impressive and so engaging. But like I love Baphomet,
their god that they keep basically at the center of
this society. Such a cool effect, such a cool creation.
I absolutely fucking love it.

Speaker 7 (59:24):
That is an intense design. The for those that haven't
seen it, there are it's almost a statue in like
the lowest area of their of Midian but it's it's
a living statue and parts of it are like glowing,

(59:46):
and there's tentacles coming out from the head to the
room that it's in. There's chains coming up from the floor.
Are they There's stuff coming up from the floor to
to kind of hold it in place. And it's dark
and creepy and weird and everyone's terrified of it, except
of course Boone Boon's like, fuck it, I'm gonna do

(01:00:06):
what I want.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
But yeah, just an incredible creature design.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
It looks like if Hell had a master control program.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 6 (01:00:15):
This is what it would look like if there was
Tron in Hell. This is what master control program would
look like. So I love that. I love the berserkers. Uh,
these it's like these monsters like and again they're all monsters,
so it's weird that they're like no, but these monsters
are like they're really out.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Of These are the ones you don't want to mess with.

Speaker 6 (01:00:33):
Yeah, yeah, these are the monsters that we the monsters
have locked up. But also they're berserkers, so are they
is their love like ticking clocks? Would they like some
making fuck Bear's erker?

Speaker 5 (01:00:44):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (01:00:45):
I don't believe you are correct, though they may have
a little trouble finding a partner because they are they're
chunky boys.

Speaker 5 (01:00:53):
Yes they are, Yes they are. Shout out to my
fellow chunky kings. I get it. I completely understand.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
After these messes, we'll be right back.

Speaker 8 (01:01:02):
When the trucks cut half passent to term two head
and fun go, it's a.

Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
Joe'll make it back tonight. And then also in the movie,
we haven't talked about her much because.

Speaker 6 (01:01:36):
She she's the romantic lead of the film, this character
of Laurie played by Anne Bobby, who was Boone's girlfriend.
But I mean again, because we're doing a lot of
specific coding in this film, their relationship doesn't feel I
don't really know how to explain this. They don't feel
like there their love is really a driving force behind

(01:01:58):
the movie.

Speaker 5 (01:01:59):
Even though by the end it's a supposed to.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Be like it.

Speaker 7 (01:02:01):
She feels definitely a beard, even at the end, even
when they're you know, professing love to each other and
YadA YadA, yadah, she's a beard and he does care
for her, but he doesn't love her.

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:02:13):
By the end of this movie, it feels like he's
trying to break up with her, and she does something
that is the the horror fantasy equivalent of just moving
in without asking mm, and it's like, fuck, now I'm
kind of stuck with her.

Speaker 5 (01:02:23):
She's on the lease. Now I didn't want I was
trying to break up. Somehow she ended up on the least. Fuck.

Speaker 6 (01:02:28):
I guess we're stuck together kind of a thing. Yep, yep,
I guess that's how I would explain that. But so, yeah,
as we moved through the movie, it's just Boone, you know,
finding out that he has been baptized by Bofamet, so
he is now night breed. He is not natural anymore.
Now he is night breed and dealing with those powers.
And at the same time, doctor Decker is trying to

(01:02:49):
find Midian to exterminate the breeders, is how he refers.

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
To it, which he doesn't want them breeding.

Speaker 6 (01:02:56):
Like again, you don't have to do a lot of legwork,
it's most done for you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:01):
Yeah, it's just right there.

Speaker 7 (01:03:03):
Yeah, you know, he could have stopped with just trying
to kill Boone, but no, now that he knows that
other people like Boone exist, it's like, nope, they've all got.

Speaker 5 (01:03:10):
To go, and this is all just leading toward this
massive confrontation with the hillbilities of the town and the
creatures of Midian, And I love that there are you know,
there are a night Breed that aren't really they're not
up to the fight. They're just not. That's not the
kind of characters they are. And unfortunately they're getting slaughtered.

Speaker 6 (01:03:28):
But then you also get those moments where some of
these characters like really come alive and find that darker
side of them and watching them just like tear the
eyes out of some of these fucking redneck sheriffs.

Speaker 5 (01:03:39):
It's pretty satisfying.

Speaker 7 (01:03:41):
It is quite satisfying. Well, yeah, and to kind of
go back to like the world building and that sort
of thing. They put on themselves a lot of rules
so that they could stay hidden, and those had to
deal with violence and with in some cases eating the
normies and that sort of thing. And they sort of
see this as you know, or we're actively being attacked,

(01:04:02):
and those that always kind of butted up against the
rules are just like, all right, well now you get
what you get. And yes, incredibly satisfying to see rednecks
get there, just come up and for sure.

Speaker 6 (01:04:16):
And just because this is night Breed and it's not Hell.
Racer doesn't mean that Clyde Barker can't find a way
to Like I said, he is the best in the
business of this depict Hell visually in a way that
is so upsetting and so tactile and so just insidious
because it will crawl into your brain and stay that
When Laurie is given the ability to see the history

(01:04:41):
that these tribes of the Moon as they're calling themselves,
what they've been through in the extermination attempts that they've survived,
like it feels almost like what Coppola would do a
few years later, or maybe like two years later with
the opening of Dracula and kind of rejecting the battle scene,
you know, for Vlaude Impaler, and it's just it's horrific

(01:05:02):
and like it's it's visions that nobody wants in their head.
And again that's just that's where he excels, is there
is so much darkness in his head and there is
so much like he might understand the concept of hell
better than any theologist that ever lived. And man, when
he starts putting that shit on the screen, the hair's

(01:05:23):
everywhere on me.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
You are standing up.

Speaker 7 (01:05:24):
Oh, it's it's Visceral like you, you are instantly uncomfortable
because it's like, oh no, I I this is too realistic.
I feel like I'm almost there and I don't want
to be here.

Speaker 5 (01:05:36):
No, thank you Visceral a reference to Viscera, another member
of the Undertaker's ministry from the obviously obviously We're not
Wait a minute, wasn't his name? What was it? He
was King God Mabel, he was He was King Mabel
before he was Viscera, and I always thought that was

(01:05:56):
the biggest King Mabel, who basically looked like a living
king cake from New Orleans.

Speaker 6 (01:06:01):
That was like his character. And then all of a
sudden he went dark and became Viscera, Like there are
heel turns and then there are fucking heel turns.

Speaker 7 (01:06:08):
Oh man, I totally forgot that was his gimmick before
he was Viscera.

Speaker 5 (01:06:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:06:13):
And then he won King of the Ring and he
went from being Mabel to King Mabel, and that just
made the whole purple and gold outfits like in the
whole New Orleans vibe even stronger.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
That's right, So.

Speaker 6 (01:06:24):
Yo, this has just become a podcast about the attitude
era of WWE. I hope that's okay with everyone, because
that's just what's happening with me. All I'm saying is that,
you know, that's the bottom line, because Stone Cold said
so and the Blood of Bahamet knows all Truth are
essentially the same mantra.

Speaker 5 (01:06:43):
That's that's really what.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
We're definitely the same vibe.

Speaker 6 (01:06:46):
If you can get into wrestling and horror movies, then
you know, our tribes of the moon will embrace you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
Amen.

Speaker 7 (01:06:53):
Well, you know, I'm pretty sure I've said this to
you before, but looking back, I now consider watching wrestling,
going to wrestling my first exposure to a form of
drag and so oh yeah, and I will still tell
people like, oh yeah, this is drag for straight men. Now,

(01:07:14):
there's a huge LBTQ plus community that's into wrestling. I'm
not taking that away from him, but wrestling is the
drag that straight men are allowed to watch. And but yeah,
definitely a lot of cross over there. And once you
add in horror, yeah, that's that's that's that's me in
a nutshell right there, horror wrestling drag camp.

Speaker 6 (01:07:35):
And I love I love that. You know, as doctor
Decker would say, that you've incorporated that into your private mythology.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
Yes, I love that for you can for me.

Speaker 5 (01:07:47):
Oh you didn't know, you know? You know?

Speaker 6 (01:07:49):
What else I love is the amount of irresponsible explosions
in this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
There are things that explode that I'm pretty sure camp
actually explode, but that's okay.

Speaker 5 (01:07:59):
I love it.

Speaker 6 (01:08:01):
The explosions, like when they start blowing shit up in
that cemetery set like Pinewood is like Pinewood has burned
down before. And I know, I know, because that's all
I'm saying is well, first of all, it's called Pinewood.

Speaker 5 (01:08:15):
It's basically made of kindling. But but I know that
this wasn't the movie that burned it down.

Speaker 6 (01:08:19):
But man, it's hard to sell anyone on that if
they know that at one point it did burn down
and they watched this movie. Because shit doesn't just explode.
There are Oppenheimer level mushroom clouds in this fucking movie.

Speaker 7 (01:08:32):
And you know, I didn't even know tombstones were flammable,
but here we.

Speaker 6 (01:08:35):
Are, come to Midian, the home of the flammable tombstones.
Rest in peace, now fuck that rest in pieces.

Speaker 5 (01:08:45):
Coup lowie.

Speaker 6 (01:08:49):
I don't know why I'm a salesman selling plots in
Midian but fine, that's that's just what I've become.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
You've got a bright future ahead of you.

Speaker 6 (01:08:56):
You know who I think should have had a brighter future.
One thing I know for certain, before we get into
how the different cuts are different, one thing that's consistent
in all the cuts they do.

Speaker 5 (01:09:05):
Sheryland so dirty in this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
Hmmm mm hmm.

Speaker 6 (01:09:09):
She's my favorite character in the movie. She's just this
barfly at the bar that's close to Midian. I love
that Midian has townies as well as monsters.

Speaker 5 (01:09:18):
That's fantastic. But yeah, she just hangs out at this bar.

Speaker 6 (01:09:22):
She's trolling for man meat and you know, she hangs
around the Canadian shit Kicker Bar. It's the same bar
where Anne Bobby commits the Canadian version of My biggest
cinematic pet peeve. Oh one of my and if you've
been listening to the show long enough, you know one
of my biggest cinematic pet peeves is when a character
walks into a bar and.

Speaker 5 (01:09:40):
Says, give me a beer.

Speaker 6 (01:09:43):
Yes, as if that bar only has one beer, just
one tap that says beer that they pull an anduum up.

Speaker 5 (01:09:50):
That's not how fucking bars work in the real world.

Speaker 7 (01:09:54):
I'm gonna try it someday just to see. Actually, I'm
going to keep trying it until.

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
It works, and I'll tell you look it.

Speaker 6 (01:10:00):
Yeah, they're just gonna get annoyed and kick you out
like you're a droid. Most highly like they don't serve.
They don't serve your kind here. No, and I'm not
talking about queers. I'm talking about people who say give
me a beer and are not more specific, like, I
get it. I get that you don't want to pay Miller,
you don't want to pay le Bat Mulson or Moosehead

(01:10:22):
if you're in Canada, I understand.

Speaker 5 (01:10:24):
Make up a beer. Just make it up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:27):
It's not hard.

Speaker 7 (01:10:28):
I mean it is like you gotta get lawyers involved
and make sure blah blah blah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
But sure, like, just do the work man.

Speaker 5 (01:10:35):
But she goes a step further and Bobby says, give
me a draft.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
That's right, I forgot a draft. And of course they
go to pull the draft and you can see there
are multiple taps, and he doesn't ask. He just pulls
a beer hands it to her.

Speaker 6 (01:10:52):
That's how it always works in movies. That's not how
it works in the fucking real world, Kevin. That's what
I have a problem with I wanted the bartender as
soon as she said, give me a draft, to just
open the front door.

Speaker 5 (01:11:01):
There, lady, there's your draft.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Goodnough for are we talking about?

Speaker 5 (01:11:07):
But then like she becomes friend with cheryl Anne.

Speaker 6 (01:11:09):
Cheryl Anne like has all like I just wanted, I
wanted a whole movie about Cheryl Anne. And she's dead
like five minutes later, and I'm like, God damn it,
you did Cheryl Anne dirty.

Speaker 2 (01:11:18):
So dirty.

Speaker 7 (01:11:19):
And you know, I won't assume that Clive Barker was
trying to put a little queer coating here, but those
two women had really great chemistry and their scenes together
they got along so well.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
It was yeah, it was it was. It was sad
to see her go so quickly.

Speaker 6 (01:11:32):
We were five minutes away from this becoming Canadian Thulman Louise.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Right, And I feel like we've all been cheated.

Speaker 5 (01:11:39):
We got robbed.

Speaker 6 (01:11:40):
We absolutely got fucking robbed that David. That should have
been the second movie by David. David Cronerberg. You Brad Fastard,
do whatever you want to Midian, but leave Cheryl Anne alone.

Speaker 5 (01:11:51):
God damn it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:57):
So let's talk for a second about the three existing
cuts of this movie because I will I will tell
you keV, like my my cinematic turnaround on this movie,
which happens on this show from time to time, might
actually be a case of Stockholm syndrome.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
MM.

Speaker 6 (01:12:13):
Because I sat down over two days and watched all
three versions of this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
That's a lot of night breathing.

Speaker 5 (01:12:19):
It's a lot of.

Speaker 6 (01:12:20):
Night bread especially since one of them is like two
and a half hours long. But basically, the three versions
of this movie that exist are the theatrical cut, the
director's cut, and something called the Cabal cut. And you
have to be careful because there was a time when
the director's cut was being sold as the cabal cut,
but the Cabal cut is something completely different.

Speaker 7 (01:12:40):
Yeah, I believe it actually was released in Italy as
Cabal and so if you're looking for the Cabal cut,
you can't wind up with just the film and Italian,
which is not as much fun.

Speaker 6 (01:12:49):
I'm gonna caution you against buying any movie from Italy,
and assuming it's the movie that it says it is.

Speaker 5 (01:12:54):
I have a history with knowing.

Speaker 7 (01:12:56):
I was gonna say, I believe your your audience knows
at this point not to do that.

Speaker 6 (01:13:01):
Yeah, yeah, go try watching Dawn of the Dead in
Italy and see if you can fucking find it. So
the theatrical cut has a runtime of an hour and
forty two minutes. It's kind of a fucking mess, you know.
There are so many things that are dropped without any introduction,
or they're introduced so late that we can't get a
handle on it. There are characters who seem like they
would be important, who just kind of disappear like and

(01:13:23):
at one point, one of the characters says, I never
believed in the prophecy.

Speaker 5 (01:13:27):
Well, neither did we, because we're fifteen minutes from the ending.
You just now mentioned this is.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
The first we've heard of the prophecy.

Speaker 6 (01:13:33):
Yeah, so I guess I'm with you. I don't believe
in it either.

Speaker 7 (01:13:36):
It's yeah, the theatrical cut is rough going back, especially
if you have the other cuts to compare to. But yeah,
there's the emotional heart and soul. The film is gone
in a lot of ways because you don't ever really
it's hard to connect with anyone because, like you said,
storylines are dropped or characters are dropped, they just disappear
somewhere in the chaos, and it's just and then the

(01:13:58):
movie's over.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
Definitely not my favorite of the cuts I've seen.

Speaker 6 (01:14:03):
Yeah, I mean it's it's not surprising when you watch
the theatrical cut and you realize that the movie only
made eight point eight million dollars in the United States
and Canada and seven million dollars internationally, so a total
of sixteen million on eleven million dollar budget, which is
basically in nineteen eighty nine to ninety breaking even.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Yeah, because they didn't put that much marketing into it.
But yeah, they did it.

Speaker 7 (01:14:23):
It probably broke even maybe, but they never would have
built it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:14:26):
It would have been seen as a failure.

Speaker 5 (01:14:28):
But it's also not surprising that the next two pictures
in that three picture deal did not surface. No, do
you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 (01:14:34):
Like, that's that's totally understanly from both sides, not just
because of the movie not being successful financially, because Barker going,
fuck all you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
I'm done with you, I ain't working with you anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:14:44):
I'm out.

Speaker 6 (01:14:45):
And then we got the director's cut, which is two
hours in one minute. So what happened was in early
two thousand and nine. There's a guy named Mark Miller
who is the co head Barker forms his own production
company after this, called Seraphim Films, and Mark Miller is
the co head of his production company, and he wants
to track down the missing footage that was cut out
of Clive Barker's cut of Night Breed, and much to

(01:15:07):
his surprise after he talks to Fox, the footage was
never lost. It was readily accessible in their archives. Basically like,
I'm going to recover that. Oh, yeah, it's right over there.
We just keep it in a box. Yeah, it wasn't lost,
it's over there.

Speaker 7 (01:15:19):
And Fox essentially said there's no market for this movie.
We're not gonna we're not gonna help you recut it,
but you can have it all. They basically just handed
him all the dailies and said, go cut a new film.

Speaker 5 (01:15:31):
I guess, go to town.

Speaker 6 (01:15:32):
So he's working on that, and then in twenty ten,
a VHS copy of Barker's one hundred and forty five
minute version of the movie, basically the work print before
it went into test screenings. They discover that and an
extended one hundred and fifty nine minute cut version from
a random VHS found in July two thousand and nine,
premiered in March twenty ten at the Horehound Weekend in Indianapolis,

(01:15:55):
and the positive word of mouth that this screening via
social media convinces Screen Factory to do a Blu ray
release of the Director's Cut, and that ends up being
released in the fall of twenty fourteen.

Speaker 5 (01:16:06):
Now, the Director's Cut, keV. This is where I have
to agree with you.

Speaker 6 (01:16:10):
I think this is the best version of the movie because,
and again when it was initially released on DVD, it
was erroneously referred to as the cabal cut, but that's
not what it is. Basically, the Director's cut has two
I think the two biggest differences is that Anne Bobby
has a song. She's a singer in the movie, and

(01:16:32):
her song is removed from the theatrical cut. Put back
in here Johnny get Angry, which, by the way, again,
not that you have to do a lot of work,
because the most of the legwork has done for you,
but it's a song about a woman wishing her man
wasn't so sensitive and got jealous more.

Speaker 2 (01:16:50):
I wish I wasn't a beard is the alternative title
to that song.

Speaker 6 (01:16:55):
I wish my dude would hit me, because at least
then I would feel like he was straight is the
subtech of the song, Like literally the lyric is I
want a brave man, I want a caveman. Stop making
me Kisha's and fucking give me five across the eyes
apparently is what this song is wishing for. It's rough,
it's a it's not a great song by any stretch

(01:17:16):
of the imagination. And then the other big difference is
that Narcis the character lives in the theatrical version. Yeah,
he is killed by Decker mid battle sequence in the
director's cut.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
Yeah, and it's a huge.

Speaker 7 (01:17:32):
Yeah, huge change obviously to his character, but also the
whole storyline and how effective Decker is at first, which
is not much at all versus Yeah, it changes so
much about I mean he also because of that, he
shows up in Midian, and he's in Midian for a

(01:17:55):
good chunk of the film, and he's helping guide Boon
along the way, and yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:18:00):
It's it's uh narciss Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Decker is
also there, but doing very different things than guiding anyone.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
Yes.

Speaker 6 (01:18:12):
But but I love the idea that the test Greetings
were so awful, and yet the one big note that
they latched onto is that the audience has got upset
when Narcis was killed. If you are Hugh Ross, you
get the biggest gold star ever because in a movie
that audiences hated during the test greeting, they hated that
you died, which means the one thing they fucking liked

(01:18:32):
about the movie was your character.

Speaker 7 (01:18:34):
Gotta love that, yeah, which I mean when he shows
up in the film more he's, you know, rocking a
cowboy hat and sunglasses and no.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
Skin and you know he's just having a good time,
and yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:18:48):
He's like a skinless Gene Simmons from Trick or Treat,
you know what I mean. It kind of looks like
a DJ at a small, a small like West Texas
rock and roll station.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
I would listen to that station.

Speaker 5 (01:19:01):
All day and all night.

Speaker 6 (01:19:02):
If it's too loud, you're too old, turn it up
and rip your skin off, love it. I would listen
to that. So yeah, that's the director's cut, which is
interesting because the other big difference between the Caball cut
and the director's cut is that the director's cut has
gone in and taken some of the footage from that
VHS work print that we mentioned, and they've cleaned it

(01:19:24):
up and they've put it back in the movie so
that you don't you don't notice a quality change the
cabal cut, which has a runtime of a whopping two
hours and twenty five minutes. So in twenty twelve and
early twenty twelve, a guy named Russell Cherrington, who is
a senior lecturer in film and Video production at the
University of Derby, created this composite cut of the film

(01:19:45):
using the footage that was found, you know, on DVD
of the film elements and the VHS tapes and then
everything that Warner Archive Collection had made available, and so
just basically took everything and pieced it together. And you
can see in this cut, like the moments that are
the VHS work print, they don't make any effort to

(01:20:08):
clean those up, so it'll be a stark like we
are shifting gears back to the VHS and then back
to the Blu ray and then back to the like
it's it's a little bit disjointed in that way. And
what I noticed what was so crazy is that yes,
again there are scenes that the caball cut shows in
VHS format that are actually cleaned up and put back
in the director's cut. So it's it's wild to be

(01:20:29):
just because of the overlap of when these two cuts
were being created. If it had been created significantly later,
there'd be much less of the VHS quality scenes. I
think in the Caball cut.

Speaker 7 (01:20:40):
True, and we might also have scenes that don't have
obvious ADR because we're looking at a shot of the
person's face and they're not speaking, but we can hear.

Speaker 2 (01:20:48):
Them, right, which does happen in the And I was like, oh,
this is what we're watching. Got it?

Speaker 5 (01:20:55):
Absolutely?

Speaker 6 (01:20:55):
So he puts together this one hundred and fifty five
minute long cut, the Caball Cut, and show it at
Mad Monster Party, which is a horror convention North Carolina. Craig
Scheffer is there and Bobby is there. And that projection
of the Cabal Cut led to a renewal of interest
among fans, and a new petition was created used to
raise awareness for the extended cut and to encourage producers
to release it, and it was known as the Occupy

(01:21:17):
Midian Movement.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
Of course it was a lot which.

Speaker 5 (01:21:21):
A term coined by and Bobby, so good good on her.

Speaker 6 (01:21:25):
But basically as all of this is going on is
when they announced you know this this blu ray that's
going to be coming out and then they're going to
They basically restored this Cabball cut, and again a lot
of the cuts are still in VHS quality, and they
it's sold on Clive Barker's online store exclusively.

Speaker 5 (01:21:45):
So there's a little bit of.

Speaker 6 (01:21:47):
Like a rogue or tape trading feel to the Cabal Cut,
where like, not only are some of the scenes VHS quality,
but the fact that you could only buy it on
Clive Barker's website, and that it's got this term that
the director's cut is not the Cabal cut, this is
the Cabal cut. Like I just I love that element
of it because it kind of feels dangerous, a little
bit likething you definitely aren't supposed to see.

Speaker 7 (01:22:09):
But also good luck finding one that you can afford nowadays,
because I think they only made about two hundred of
them and they're long gone.

Speaker 5 (01:22:16):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:22:18):
Little word of warning to the listeners. If you do
go hunting the Cabal Cut, you will find something called
the Ultimate Caball Cut. This is one hundred and ninety
minutes long and it is literally all the footage that
someone could find, put in mostly the correct order, with
a couple repeats and you do not want to watch that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
That is not the Cabal cut. Do not watch that one.

Speaker 6 (01:22:41):
Yeah, it's it's all the footage, including like Doug Bradley
at the craft service table having a sandwich.

Speaker 2 (01:22:47):
It just wags, makes no sense.

Speaker 6 (01:22:50):
What I found really interesting though about the Cabal cut
was that there are some really stark differences in terms
of the plot of the movie that don't exist in
the theat or director's cut. And one of them is
that the detective that I mentioned earlier, this character, God,
I'm trying to remember his name, he's the black detective.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Joye, the type of Joyce.

Speaker 6 (01:23:10):
Yes, yes, he doesn't die in the Cabal cut, and
he dies in both the theatrical and the director's cut.

Speaker 2 (01:23:16):
That is true.

Speaker 6 (01:23:17):
He's he's literally he makes it all the way to
the end of the movie, which is really interesting that
that only exists in the Cabal cut.

Speaker 5 (01:23:23):
Also, there is this weird.

Speaker 6 (01:23:28):
Stop motion like just glimpse of a creature in stop
motion that I don't believe is in the director's cut.
It's a berserker writing what looks like a do back lizard,
you know from Star Wars. And again it's only in
the Cabal cut.

Speaker 7 (01:23:42):
He really wanted to make Night Breed the Star Wars
of Horror, so you have to.

Speaker 6 (01:23:45):
Have a He really wanted to entice Phil Tippett to
work on this, I think is what we're getting.

Speaker 2 (01:23:49):
I think so too.

Speaker 7 (01:23:50):
By the way, Detective Joyce, canonically, I guess, survives because
he's also in the Night Breed. He's one of the
main characters in the Night Breed comics.

Speaker 5 (01:24:00):
Huh.

Speaker 6 (01:24:00):
That's interesting because the theatrical and director's cut both absolutely
fuck kill him.

Speaker 2 (01:24:04):
Yep, So I wonder.

Speaker 7 (01:24:06):
I wonder if he is from the source material Cabal
and survives in that.

Speaker 2 (01:24:10):
I don't. I haven't read it, so I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:24:12):
And then there's this other weird element that only exists
in the Cabal cut or if I'm wrong, please correct me.
But Decker's mask talks back to him in his own voice.

Speaker 2 (01:24:20):
Yeah, that is only in the Cabal cut.

Speaker 6 (01:24:22):
Yeah, yeah, Okay, So he has a conversation with the
mask like Green Goblin and Spider Man, like he's Willem
Dafoe or something.

Speaker 7 (01:24:28):
Which I mean, it's it's it's Cronenberg. He pulls it off.
But yeah, it doesn't at that point, it it It
adds too much. I think to Decker, like, he can
just be crazy and we don't have to know why
he's crazy, right, we don't have to know the specifics
of his crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:24:45):
He just likes to kill people.

Speaker 6 (01:24:47):
It's also weird that it only happens once toward the
end of the movie, Like it seems like if you're
going to establish that, it needs to be a thing
that happens throughout the movie, and this is literally one scene. Like,
I completely understand why this got cut, because if you're
going to commit to this, you really you need to
really commit to it and not just happen in one scene.

Speaker 7 (01:25:03):
Yeah, it needed to be a thing throughout the movie
for sure, part of his driving psychosis.

Speaker 2 (01:25:09):
I guess.

Speaker 5 (01:25:11):
His personal mythology for sure. Mm hmm uh yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:25:15):
But that's that's basically the rundown of the three different
cuts of this movie. And it's it's wild to me
whenever films have this many different versions, especially, I mean,
it makes sense, it is the it is the end
result of a troubled production that you have multiple cuts
of a film. And it's always fascinating to me when
you have big fans of a film that have multiple cuts,

(01:25:36):
their allegiances to different cuts and how those vary.

Speaker 5 (01:25:39):
Like it's just I love learning about shit like this.

Speaker 7 (01:25:42):
Oh hey, y'all, come find me and tell me why
I'm wrong on the cabal cut. Tell me why I'm
wrong for liking the director's cut the best.

Speaker 2 (01:25:50):
But yeah, no, I'm.

Speaker 7 (01:25:50):
Sure like there are fans of each cut out there,
and for good reason, Like you can there is maybe
not the theatrical, but the other two versions.

Speaker 2 (01:25:58):
There's definitely merit to what is included or not included.
I think so.

Speaker 7 (01:26:03):
Yeah, It's it's always wild to see, you know, a vision,
and you know, I guess I'm kind of living that
now too, right, Like I have a vision, I've put
it out on paper.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
We're going to bring it to life hopefully.

Speaker 7 (01:26:15):
Sometime soon, but it's it's going to evolve over time
with different creatives working on it, and we'll see what
we can come up with.

Speaker 6 (01:26:23):
I just think something like this that is so singular
and has so much of an artist's vision and passion
in it is something you can't ever discount, even if
the even if the product is not something that works
for you, you know, from start to finish. I really do
think things like this should be cherished because it is

(01:26:44):
an example of someone just refusing to play by anybody
else's rule and and and and commit to bringing this
incredibly imaginative nightmare in their head to the screen for
everyone to take part in. And again, whether or not
it works for you, I still think the experience of

(01:27:05):
this movie is well worth your time. I would recommend,
if you haven't seen it, to go with the director's cut.
I think it's the most accessible, and the VHS roughness
is not gonna throw you for a loop. But you're
also not gonna feel like you've been cheated out of
the things that make this movie make more sense, even
though you know we end on a cliffhanger, because this
was supposed to be the first of a trilogy. And honestly,
the ending of this movie feels like it should be

(01:27:26):
called Night Breed Ragnarok, because it's essentially the same ending
as Thor Ragnarok, where it's like, well, shit, what do
we do now? And now you're our savior, Like you
got to lead us to a new place and that's
where we were gonna jump off into the next one
that we never got.

Speaker 7 (01:27:41):
Yeah, and you almost get the sense that Boone was like, wait,
hold on, I didn't sign up for this, and then
the movie's over.

Speaker 5 (01:27:50):
And the movie just ends.

Speaker 6 (01:27:51):
The prophecy has been fulfilled, question mark, And Yeah, I
would have loved to have seen what the next chapter
of this story would have looked like.

Speaker 2 (01:27:59):
Same.

Speaker 6 (01:28:00):
So, yeah, I understand. I appreciate that this is the
movie you chose for the episode. I completely see how
it would be driving your creative engine for terms and conditions.

Speaker 7 (01:28:12):
Yeah, it's like I said, I'm a I've been a
lifelong horror fan. My parents put a TV in my
bedroom when I was six because they were tired of
my Atari, but they hooked up cable and I discovered
Horror on HBO and I'm been a fan of that
ever since. And that plus the camp, plus the queer coding, like,

(01:28:34):
there's just so much a night Breed for me to
love and I think for everyone to love.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
Y'all check it out.

Speaker 3 (01:28:39):
Everything that's true.

Speaker 4 (01:28:42):
God's an Astronauts is over the Rainbow.

Speaker 6 (01:28:48):
Comdians where the monsters lived, and that brings us to
the junk food pairing. And for this one, I went
with a Pati shoe, which is a French cream puff
that is popular in Canada.

Speaker 5 (01:28:59):
It's a del get pastry.

Speaker 6 (01:29:00):
Dough that is essentially butter, water, flower and eggs, and
then they often fill it with a type of cream,
but a lot of times what it looks like is.

Speaker 5 (01:29:09):
A weird cream filled croissant.

Speaker 6 (01:29:12):
And that's exactly what the hotel clerk is eating in
this movie. She drops all over the counter in the
floor because when you're looking at the first name, like, oh,
it's it's a donut, and then you look at the
pieces that she because they they fetishistically zoom in on
this fucking thing which she's putting it on the counter,
and it's like that looks like bread, that doesn't look
like donut, Like what's going on here? And I literally

(01:29:33):
had to like retcon research this to figure out what
the fuck it is she was eating before I realized, Yes,
it's absolutely a pat to show, and it's one where
the outer pastry is a little bit more croissant like,
but the innards are one just you know, some kind
of Bavarian cream and it.

Speaker 5 (01:29:50):
Looks delicious as fuck.

Speaker 6 (01:29:52):
It delous, but it's also it's also very much this
movie because it may appear like one thing from the outside,
but the more you dig in and unearthed the hidden layers,
it becomes something very different and ultimately delightful.

Speaker 5 (01:30:05):
It's basically the Median of desserts.

Speaker 2 (01:30:07):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
That's great.

Speaker 2 (01:30:09):
Yeah, you know what.

Speaker 7 (01:30:10):
This may be cliche, but I have been to Canada
and I have eaten this, and I have enjoyed it.
And I like to think that all the people of
Midian want to be able to walk into that honky
tonk and sit down and order a draft without naming
a specific beer, and get a nice basket of poutine.

Speaker 5 (01:30:33):
Uh yes, poutine.

Speaker 7 (01:30:34):
I don't know if y'all have done poutine before, but
I'm gonna say, get yourself a little poutine and watch
Night Breathe.

Speaker 6 (01:30:41):
I fucking love this idea poutine for dinner and a
Paticho for dessert. It's almost as Canadian as David Cronenberg
and a Canadian suxedo, which.

Speaker 5 (01:30:52):
Doesn't happen in this movie.

Speaker 6 (01:30:53):
But I feel like at some point in his life
he must have worn denim on denim, and we will
find those pictures.

Speaker 5 (01:30:57):
God damn it, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:59):
I'll get the research team on it right away.

Speaker 6 (01:31:00):
That's how we'll get him to be in your movie. Yeah, keV,
this is how we're gonna get David Cronenberg to be
in your movies. We're gonna blackmail him with pictures of
him in the Canadian tuxedo from nineteen ninety two.

Speaker 5 (01:31:09):
We will fucking figure it out. Man.

Speaker 2 (01:31:11):
I love this idea. Let's go for it.

Speaker 6 (01:31:14):
Well, keV, thanks again for being my guide through the
world of medians, showing me that it is better to
be night breed than it is to be natural.

Speaker 2 (01:31:20):
Amen.

Speaker 6 (01:31:21):
Please tell people how they can support Terms and Conditions,
where they can find information about it, all the good
stuff plug away.

Speaker 2 (01:31:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:31:28):
So the website is Terms and cons dot com, and
the crowdfunding platform that we're using, they pay attention to
us when we just get people to go on the
platform and follow us. So even if you can't support
us financially, please go to terms and cons dot com,
sign up and follow our campaign. But we also, I

(01:31:49):
like to think, have some nice fun incentives for backers.
You know, obviously when you back a project like this,
you want to see it. So there is a level
where you get to you'll be invited to a backer screening.
You know, we can offer you a credit and a
special section. We actually will also if you would like

(01:32:10):
to send us enough we will send you the screen
worn costume of our demon, which currently we're planning it
to be a very nice, swanky, bright, colorful suit, but
we'll see where that winds up. But yeah, Terms and
cons dot com you can find all the information. You
can get a run down on the crew and the
story and all of that.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32):
Thank you guys.

Speaker 6 (01:32:33):
If I may endorse, keV is one of the greatest
people that I have ever known, and is one of
the most creative people I've ever known.

Speaker 2 (01:32:40):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:32:41):
So I personally am super stoked to see you. Know
what Terms and Conditions looks like, how you get the
nightmares out of your head and put them on the screen.

Speaker 5 (01:32:51):
I will. I don't know how you could be like
Opening Day front Row for a short, but I will
fucking figure out how to be Opening Day front Row.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
For this short.

Speaker 2 (01:32:58):
I will save that seat for you.

Speaker 5 (01:33:00):
Awesome phenomenal.

Speaker 6 (01:33:02):
If you would like more of the Nightmare than is
Junk Food Cinema again, we have eleven years of this
horseshow on your favorite podcast or follow us on social media.
And if you really like the show.

Speaker 2 (01:33:10):
I mean, if you really like the show.

Speaker 6 (01:33:13):
If you like it as much as I'm pretty sure
by the end of this movie, David Cronenberg has pieces
of scenery growing out of his face. You can go
to Patreon dot com slash Junk Food Cinema financially support
the show. Just to remind everybody. As we wrap up,
God's an astronaut, Oz is over the Rainbow and Midian
is where the monsters live.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
Fine.

Speaker 5 (01:33:29):
Two of the Masters come out on line. Why do
we see him?

Speaker 1 (01:33:34):
We want so hot?

Speaker 5 (01:33:35):
Why do we want back to you?

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
I like it to line if you fucking mine