Superman II (1980)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
The following podcast represents Junk Food Cinema as it was
originally conceived and intended to be recorded.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
I desire all right, this is Dick Miller.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
If you're listening to Junk Food Cinema, who are these guys?

Speaker 1 (00:59):
Just West Planet Houston, A new episode of Junk Food
Cinema comes bursting out of the phantom zone, brought to
you by Justice Forotis dot org.

Speaker 4 (01:08):
Org dot com dot Neil.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Before zod except after c This is, of course the
weekly cult exploitation film has so good it just has
to be fattening. I'm Brian Salisbury, your host that I'm
joined as per usual by my friend and colleague.

Speaker 4 (01:23):
He is a novelist. He is a screenwriter, a.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Lieutenant at Mega Force, a man who calls himself the
last son of Krypton whenever he's had too much tequila.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
Mister c Robert Cargill, Hi, how's it going, man? It's going?

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Things are you know? Things are Things are going.

Speaker 4 (01:40):
They are progressing, things are progressing.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
There is nothing we can do about that, but we
are happy to be here with you all talking about
another great movie that I can't believe we haven't covered
in the past.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
A sad reason we're talking about it.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
We'll get into that in just a moment, but first,
a little bit of housekeeping path keeping. If you would
like to hear more of Cargolinized bullshit, we have eleven
years of it on your favorite podcast. You can also
follow us on social media at Junk Food Cinema, pretty
much everywhere.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
And if you really liked the show.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
I mean you really liked the show, you like.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
It as much as I get the sense that right
at the end, Richard Donners still didn't like the sal Kinds,
you can go to Patreon dot com slash Junkfood Cinema
and financially support the show.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Cargill, that's me, that's you.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
We pulled an audible this week because we lost a giant.
We lost a titan this week. In so many ways,
but especially to those of us who are deeply ingrained
in the love of comic book cinema. This man was
one of the greatest on screen comic book villains of
all time, to say nothing of his outside of the

(02:48):
world of comic book's distinguished acting career. Amazing performances, never
had a bad one if you ask me. But we
recently lost Terrence Stamp. Yeah, Terrence Stamp is a zona
fide screen inferno since the early fucking sixties. Oh yeah,
I mean again, Like I said, he never turned into
bad performance. He was incredible in so many movies. His

(03:10):
last film was a terrific turn in Edgar Wright's phenomenal
Last Night in Soho. And we've covered his work on
other episodes like Young Guns, The Limey and Superman seventy eight. Actually,
and I had forgotten Cargill. There was a sly nod
in the show Smallville that every time Clark heard Jorel speak,

(03:31):
it was the voice of Terrence Stamp, which I think
is is so funny that you know, he goes from
playing one of the greatest Superman villains of all time
to playing Joerel.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
Well, but also as Smallville bands will tell you that
Joerel is not necessarily a good guy.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Oh that's true. No, I remember that. God, that's all
coming back to me.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
I watched it in college and I have not set
foot in Smallville since then. But that is all that
that weird, Like, maybe Jirell is the devil on Superman
Shoulder is a very interesting take for sure, But we
decided this week in honor of Terence Stamp, and because
we've only covered the first Superman that maybe it's high
time to put on the boots, strap on the cape,

(04:13):
and fly into Superman two.

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Superman two is taking off all over America as the
adventure continues to explode across movie screens everywhere, sore right
into new record breaking heights. Audiences and critics agree there
is only one film to see this summer, Superman two,

(04:40):
the most exciting movie event of our time, rated PG
now playing everywhere.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Now, Cargill, I remember I pushed hard for this one
to be a part of June Hack Month, but in hindsight,
I'm so glad we didn't include this as part of
June Hack Month, you know, because we had already covered
the first Superman. So I thought Superman two was the
next logical step, you know, to honor Gene Hackman. But
this movie is far more appropriate to discuss as a

(05:09):
celebration of Terrence Stamp that would have than it would
have ever been for Gene Hackman.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Well yeah, Haman Hackman disappears halfway through the movie and
then shows back up like in the third act, like
he's there and then gone, and frankly in terms of
in terms of all of the films, and we will
we will end up discussing a bunch of the films.
The Lex Luthor in this movie is my least favorite

(05:36):
on screen luthor.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
So here's the thing, and I really, I really want
to be clear about this. Yes, Zod is definitely the
principal villain in Superman two. Lex Luthor is a side character.
But there's another reason why I feel like I'm glad
we didn't cover this as part of June Hackman because,
as we'll discuss, Hackman kind of got shafted very hard
by the theatrical cut of this movie, the Leicester cut,

(06:01):
And it's almost to the point that using Superman two
to honor Hackman feels low key disrespectful, like he doesn't
have any new scenes, you know, and they're using body
doubles and ADR and we're gonna get into the history
of all this, so really strap in, because we need
to talk about the fact that Superman two exists as
two completely separate entities.

Speaker 4 (06:24):
Oh yeah, and the story of that is insane.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
And you know, as I delved deeper and deeper into it,
like I did, sort of you know, pins on the corkboard, Pepe, Sylvia,
like intense level of research for this episode, to the
point that I was literally watching the Richard Lester cut,
which is the version of Superman two that was released
in theaters in nineteen eighty And I also watched the

(06:49):
Richard Donner cut, which was something that came out in
two thousand and six in which Richard Donner had actually
gone in and compiled everything that he had shot. And
you know, we're gonna get into this whole story, but
the fact that these two movies exist separately, and the
fact that the debate has raged for years about which
version is better, about you know, how the different elements

(07:11):
work together.

Speaker 4 (07:12):
Like, I'm really excited to talk about it.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
And I will say that when I started the research,
it was my humble opinion that and I don't want
to descend into petty hyperbole here, but that maybe the
soul Kinds are war criminals. Uh, Because like, if you
go back and look at the chicanery that directly leads
to the controversial dueling versions of Superman two, Like that

(07:34):
goes all the way back to nineteen seventy one, when
they produced a film adaptation of the Three Musketeers.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
One for All and all fuf funks were Free Musketeers
rated Beaches with Richard Lester.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
They get Richard Lester to direct this Three Musketeers adaptation,
and they come up with this brilliant idea like, hey,
let's split this into two movies.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Let's film both of them at the.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Same time to say production cost, because we don't have
to start and stop, and then we only have to
pay the actors once, even though we're releasing two movies.
And the second half of that movie was released in
nineteen seventy four as The Four Musketeers and again directed
by Richard Lester, who at this point in his career
had done A Hard Day's Night, which was a monster
like kind of an unexpected monster hit.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
It was a movie. I don't know if y'all know this.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
A Hard Day's Night was really a movie that was
put out just so that they could sell us of
the soundtrack, because there was a loophole that said that
the record company that had the rights to the Beatles'
music didn't have the rights to soundtrack. So if they
could just make a movie with the Beatles and release
the soundtrack from that movie, technically you'd be releasing a
Beatles album that you would get the profits from, and
not the company that actually released Beatles albums. And yet

(08:44):
the movie was as successful, if not more successful, than
the soundtrack to the movie, and that kind of helped
Richard Lester to get a lot of work. He's a
fairly I don't know how you feel about Leicester Cargat,
but I kind of find him to be very inconsistent.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah, that's a that's a that's a very fair way
to to put it.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
I mean, he directed one of our favorite comedies, A
Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum, And
you know, he has directed movies that you know.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
It's my favorite musical of all time.

Speaker 4 (09:14):
I know this, I do know this about you and
I oh, I.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
Was telling everybody else who's listening, because there are people out.

Speaker 4 (09:19):
There there are wait what that's when?

Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah. And I do really really dig the Three Musketeers
and Four Musketiers movies. I think they're great. They're so
much fun. I think there's so much about them that
is exceptional.

Speaker 5 (09:38):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
But you know, he also directed other things that you know,
aren't are I don't think he ever did anything, you know, inconsistent.
I think is the first term. I don't think he
ever made anything that I've seen that's terrible Superman three,
or that I could even be like, well it's not
great Superman three, just kind of like, eh, you know,

(10:02):
his his his worst stuff that I've seen is still good.
But I say it was good, like, yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
Enjoy it was a tone, there was a tone to
that for you.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah it's the I've seen it and you know, oh right,
I have seen that, and I can't remember anything but
a few shots from it, you know, kind of reaction.
So but but yeah, he also you know, and he
played around with a lot of really interesting fantasy which
was so interesting about him, like his Robin and Marion

(10:34):
from seventy six. You know, but I've never seen Butch
and Sundance the early days. That sounds like just it's
always it's always sounded like a bad idea.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
I think that's why you say that you've never seen
a film of his that's terrible, because that movie literally
is almost like a punchline for like what's a terrible
sequel or what's a terrible movie? You can usually say
Butch and Sundance the early days, people go oh yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
It's still got a five point seven on IMDb.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Man, We've covered movies on this show that don't have
five point seven ratings on IMDb.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
So yeah, this is William Kat Tom Behringer. You know,
maybe I need to watch that and find out.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
I mean, I'm still reeling from the revelation that there
are people out there listening to this. I thought we
were recording in the Fortress of Solitude, but apparently this
is like going out to other humans.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
So I don't know how I feel about that.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Oh wait, you know what, I'm going to take this back.

Speaker 4 (11:28):
There aren't people out there.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
I forgot that Lester're directed Part three.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Superman three, Oh yeah, yeah about.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yeah about that. Forget what I just said.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
Just rewind and forget everything you've heard up to this point.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah yeah, Superman three is uh is pretty bad.

Speaker 3 (11:45):
Superman three this time is going to be the best
time of all.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Going back to you know, these two cuts, which we'll
get into, the history of the debate has raged forever.
Uh uh, And by forever, I mean for nineteen years.

Speaker 4 (12:03):
Yeah, it's like since two thousand and six.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yes, But but I would argue the reason the debate
has raged is because neither is better than the other.
Each does certain things and makes choices that are better
than the choices that are in the other movie at
certain times. There are things I love about the Donner cut,
and there are things I prefer and absolutely love about

(12:26):
the Leicester cut, And like, I have a friend who's
an editor who sent me his cut where he took
both cuts and recut them together to create one super
cut of the best choices, And frankly, that's my favorite
cut I've ever watched.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
Can I tell you a really nerdy secret.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I literally was getting elements together to do that myself
after watching both of these cuts so much for this episode,
I was like, I really would just like to play
around with it and see if I can piece Toget
like Frankenstein together a mix of the Leicester cut and
the Donner cut, just as if I could do it.
So I love that someone else in your life has
already done that. I think I'm gonna try my hand
at it as well.

Speaker 2 (13:06):
Oh yeah, no. And it's an editor of an Oscar
nominated Oscar nominated film, guy who's been working in the
industry forever. He sat down, he's a huge Superman fan,
and he sent me a DVD years ago of like
here's here's my cut and and I was like, ah, yes,
this is all the best stuff.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
I love that this guy is vicariously big leaguing me.
He's big leaguing me through you. That's fine, I get it.
I'm still gonna try my hand at this because, uh, yeah,
do it. I agree with you. No, I agree with you.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
And fan edits are we don't talk about this on
the podcast. I think we brought it up once or
twice in the entire eleven year history. I love fan
edits of things. I think they're really great experiments. I've
seen some fan edits that absolutely have wrecked their own
films in the best way. Like there's there's a cutout there.

(13:57):
I don't know if you can still find it. I
found it years ago. I used to show it to people.
That was the two Texas Chainsaw remakes edited together to
be from Leatherface's point of view, and so they really
edited it to where you are just they start with
the beginning, and you start with him, and you follow

(14:17):
leather Face, and it's at like a ninety three minute
movie of these two movies cut together, of leather Face
going through and killing all these people, but told from
his point of view, and it was just it's such
an interesting experiment. I saw an x Men cut that
was a cut of the first three movies cut together

(14:38):
into one two hour movie that cut out everything that
just didn't work in the first and third one and
trim down the second one. I mean, I think x
Men two is fucking amazing, but like turned it into
a cut that took everything I did not like about
the first one and everything I hated about the third
one and made me love the entire narrative. Those types

(15:00):
of edits can be great. I've seen terrible edits fan
edits where I'm like, what the fuck do you think
you're doing? This is ridiculous, But yeah, absolutely sit down
and make your cut. Do it. I want to see
what you do.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
I know I will definitely play around with that, and
I've come to the same sort of conclusion that you have,
and we'll get more into that later. But I will
also tell you that there is a fan cut version
of a particular film trilogy. That is the only way
that I will watch that trilogy anymore.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
Gee, I wonder who stars in that war of a film?

Speaker 1 (15:38):
A few stars star in that war of a film
you might say, yeah, it's the specialized cut.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
I don't know why we're dancing around it.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
It's like the specialized cut of the original Star Wars
trilogy is the absolute best version of those movies that
you can watch.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Oh, I thought you were talking about the the the
Phantom edit.

Speaker 4 (15:58):
I don't know about that. Well.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
I think of vaguely heard those words before, but I
don't know what the Phantom Medic is.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
The Phantom Medit is the Phantom Menace with jar Jar
Banks removed and tightened up to make logic work. There's
also an infamous cut of all three of the original
or of the prequel movies, that Toprah Grace edited himself.

Speaker 1 (16:26):
See I knew he did something like that, but I
couldn't remember what fucking movie it was for.

Speaker 2 (16:29):
Oh, it was for the prequels, and you can. He's
never posted it online in my knowledge. He only shows
it to friends at events where he'll be like, Hey,
come on over, I'm showing the Phantom Medic or whatever
he calls it. And then there's the Phantom Medic, which
people which did float around online for a long time.
I'm certain it's out there somewhere. I have no idea

(16:51):
what the state of piracy looks like in twenty twenty five.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
You know what, I will attempt my own cut of
The Phantom Menace. First, I'm gonna cut the DVD in
half of the Machete and I'm going to throw it
in the trash.

Speaker 4 (17:01):
Mission accomplished.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
And then Jason Murphy sheds a tear like the Indian
and that old commercial.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh no, he just appears in my house and starts
throwing things at me. I don't know how he's been
able to do this astral projection shit, but he only
does it if I bet get out of here.

Speaker 4 (17:18):
God damn it, Murphy.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
And of course I didn't mean Native American.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
But no, no, it's just Jason Murphy. But I understand
what you're saying, Stargrobe.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
This is what the saul kinds are up to.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
They've they've created this whole double feature filming technique wherein
they are really kind of cheating people out of money
and doing things that even Roger Corn would be.

Speaker 4 (17:43):
Like, I don't know if that's above board.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
And so as a result of this, I don't know
if you're aware of this, But because Alexander Elia and
Michael Salkinds split this movie into two parts and of
course talking about not only the Musky Tears, but then
Superman as well. The Screen Actors Guild contracts now often
feature what is called a soul Kind clause, which requires

(18:08):
producers to state up front how many movies are being
are being shot and that the actors and actresses evolved
must be paid for each. They literally had to invent
terminology in Screen Actors Guild contracts to prevent this from
happening again.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Well that's why we have unions, because it did then
happen again in a weird way with Back to the Future.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
Oh yes, of course.

Speaker 2 (18:33):
So yeah, there was lots of chicknnery going on all
over the place, with you know, producers trying to milk
the most. In fact, that's where you know what happened
here was as a result of the weird stuff going on.
We don't see Jorell in this movie because they didn't
want to fucking pay Brando again.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Oh my god, we will get into that, but get well,
let's get into that. Well no, I just want to
say all of this to say that at the same
time they're making these Three Musketeers movies, they also buy
the rights to a very popular comic book character by
the name of Superman, and then after they finished with
their their Musketeers nonsense, in nineteen seventy six, a little

(19:13):
movie is released called The Omen.

Speaker 4 (19:21):
Which makes sixty million dollars worldwide.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
So the Salkinds decide that they're going to take their
innovative double feature filming technique to a film adaptation of
the Superman comic and they hire Richard Donner, who directed
The Omen, to direct Superman and Superman two simultaneously. And
they landed on Donner because William free Can turned them
down and Sam Peckinpad took umbrage with something they said
during his meeting and pulled a gun on them.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
The true story that is that it's not even a joke,
like it sounds like a bok no.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
No, no no.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's that is the most Pecan pause shit I have
ever heard. I've never heard that story, but that is
Pekan pause. Fuck.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
It is heck and paw to the maxima. Oh my gosh.
So yeah, they they land on Richard Donner. Richard di
Donner is hired to do both Superman and Superman two,
but while he's trying to finish part two. You know,
there's still elements from the first one that aren't quite right,
and they're not sure if they're gonna get it done
by Christmas, so he has to focus all of his

(20:19):
efforts on finishing the elements of part one before he's
finished making Part two, and this caused them to go
overtime and over budget a lot, and he kept asking
the sal Kinds for more money and for more time,
and funny enough, Richard Lester is brought in at this point,
not to replace Donner, but to be basically a go

(20:43):
between between Donner and the sal Kinds, who at this
point are just not talking to each other. So he's
brought in and then he starts doing some second unit work,
and then there is some friction between Donner and Pierre Spengler,
who's like the third producer on this movie, the only producer,
the big producer.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
Of the movie.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
His last name is not soul Kind, and basically Donna's like,
if that guy comes back for two, I'm not directing it.
And then he finds out that they want to x
they want to ax all of the Marlon Brando footage
that was shot for Part two because Marlon Brando is
demanding more money. He's basically demanding to be paid for
both movies, which normally is not an unreasonable request. But

(21:21):
he also was paid a million dollars already and then
also got a percentage of the gross. So I'm not
saying Marlon Brando's in the wrong here. I am saying
that the structure of the payment should have been for everyone.
If you're into movies, you get paid for two movies.
But Marlon Brando was eating more than anybody else already.
So when he demanded to be paid for both movies
pretty much the same rate, they were like, well, we're

(21:43):
just gonna cut out all the Marlon Brando stuff from
the second movie. And Richard Donner's like, if you do that,
I'm not finishing it, And that's basically what happened. He
gets fired and they bring in Richard Lester to make
the movie. To finish the movie. Here's the problem, Cargill.
As you probably are aware, there's a rule in the
DGA that you cannot be credited as the director of

(22:06):
a movie unless you shot about at least fifty percent
of the movie. And since Donner had already completed seventy
to eighty percent of Superman two. Richard Lester had to
go back and reshoot a ton of stuff that Donner
had already done just so that he could be credited.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
As the director of the movie. Fucking discuss.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
I mean, this is what happens when you have producers
who really screw the pooch, who really kind of decide, hey,
we're gonna go ahead and do this, and then really
drop the ball and then cost themselves more money. Like
how much did they spend to reshoot that so that

(22:46):
Lester could get that credit that they just would have
paid to Branda, like, you know, And how big of
a cost saving measure was it? And by the way,
that stuff turned out to be really good and really
important to make a more interesting.

Speaker 4 (23:04):
Movie, right absolutely.

Speaker 1 (23:06):
And that's what's crazy, is that if you start to
get the impression that maybe it was more of a
pride thing and an ego thing than a financial decision.
I don't know, but perhaps ego played into it just
a little bit on this. But that's how we end
up with the theatrically released version of Superman two, directed
by Richard Lester. Another thing that's very important to note,

(23:29):
besides the excised Marlon Brando footage. Gene Hackman, out of
loyalty to Richard Donner, refuses to come back and shoot
any new scenes. So anything that is new in the
Lester cut that was not shot by Richard Donner and
features the character of Lex Luthor is done with body

(23:50):
doubles and ADR, which is, like I said, that's why,
in hindsight, this would not have been a good movie
to cover during June Hackman because technically, at a certain
point he's not even in this movie.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
And it's uh, and it's it's kind of sad. But
at the same time, I'm I'm glad we get to
talk about Uh, Terrence Stamp because of Stamps movies, this
is the one that has the most cultural impact. Oh yes,
that people like, there was so many Neil before Zod
jokes on the day that he passed. Uh, But that's

(24:27):
to say that we've been telling Neil or Zod jokes
for forty five fucking years before.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
So when my son was born, his initials are z
os and you better believe I released pictures of him
in the hospital still that said Neil before Zas Like,
if you don't think I did that, you don't fucking
know me very well.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Nope, and uh yeah, so it's you know, he's he
and he's so fucking good in this movie.

Speaker 4 (24:55):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
And uh and so freaking good in both cuts of
the movie. That's the thing is the stuff that got
cut with Jorell doesn't just cut Joerel. It cuts some
of their storyline. Oh yeah, and their storyline is really interesting.
And that's the thing is that there really are some
points in that Donner cut, and you can see why
Donner quit, Like the movie that came out was not

(25:20):
the movie Richard Donner wanted to make. And Richard Donner
had made great films before, went on to make great
films after, and so it's clear that this was a
matter of a real matter of pride in the work,
and so much so that he came back to re edit,
which is a thing that directors just typically don't do,

(25:42):
and he was happy to do it, and I thought
that was pretty rad of him.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
I Mean, my favorite thing about Terrence Stamp as General
Zod is he is a prim and proper maniac, Like
he is completely arrogant and egotistical, to the point that
he uses his name in the third person constantly, right,
like He's Clifford Franklin out here, but at the same time,

(26:06):
there is such a decorum and a way that he
carries himself, and it's just it is accepted by all
that I will rule the world. Like it's just so
hoity toity and yet maniacal at the same time. And
I fucking love the balance that Terrence Stamp strikes where
it's like I am going to be ruthless, I am

(26:28):
going to be power mad, and I'm going to be crazy,
but at the same time, I am going to appear
at all times on screen like I have my shit
fully together at all moments.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Why do you say this to me when you know
I will kill you for it?

Speaker 1 (26:43):
That is the beauty of that Terrence Stamp performance, and
I love it so much. But like, yeah, I mean,
one of the biggest differences between the two cuts is
how they connect to each other, because when Donner was
working on these two movies, you may recall at the
end of Superman, you know, Alex Luthor's got these missiles
that are kind of flying around everywhere, and you know

(27:04):
Superman grabs one of these missiles and hurls it into space.
In Donner's version, the way that movie was supposed to end,
is that it's that missile that goes out into space
and shatters the phantom Zone, releasing General zod Non and Ursa.
While he's making it, the sull Kinds go, don't end
the movie like that. We don't want it to end

(27:24):
on a cliffhanger. So now he doesn't have an ending.
Now I was like, I don't know what the fuck
to do. So what did he do? He took what
was supposed to be the ending for Part two and
stuck it as the ending of Part one, where Superman
basically flies backwards around the world to undo the earthquake
that kills Lois Lane. So that was supposed to be

(27:45):
the ending of two. Now it's the ending of one.
And I think it's really fascinating that he had a plan.
Donner had this plan where he was basically gonna end
Part one on a cliffhanger. When you think about how
a lot of like the finales of franchises are handled, now.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
That's literally the blueprint.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
You make the last movie two movies and you in
the first part on a cliffhanger is literally how they
fucking wrap up franchises. Now, oh yeah, every single franchise
I could think of, does it like the Twilight movies,
the Harry Potter movies, the Avengers movies, Like, literally, this
is how it is done, and it's it's because Richard
Donner set the fucking standard.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah. No, I mean, and if if that were to
be done the Donner version of doing it in this
day and age, we would have the movie as we
saw it and then would have a mid credit sequence
where we see the missile going where we're like, what
is that? And then we're like, oh, And originally we
were supposed to see at the beginning of the first

(28:43):
movie them getting expelled. Yeah, that was supposed to be
a big part of it.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
And they set it up like again, you want to
talk about the way like the Marvel Cinematic Universe works now,
they set up General zod Non and Ursa at the
beginning of the first movie. The first movie opens on
Krypton with the trial of these three and it's Jerrell
who ultimately is the deciding vote that sends them into
the Phantom Zone. And basically it's like, all right, guys,

(29:12):
file that away for later and then we move on
with the first movie. So the second movie opens in
both versions with revisiting that trial. But what's crazy in
the Leicster version is that Brando was just not in it.
Now he's just not there. So we're doing the whole
trial again and it's just somebody else's voice telling us
what's going on from off screen, and then we see
them fired away. We kind of get the last Week

(29:34):
on Superman situation with clips from the first movie, and
then Donner's cut opens up with a dedication to Christopher
Reeve that's without whom we'd never believed a man could fly. Ooh,
that hit me right in the feels. Oh and by
the way, if you have not seen last year's documentary

(29:55):
Super slash Man the Christopher Reeves story, fucking watch it tonight, Like,
watch it immediately. It is simultaneously the most heartbreaking and
uplifting piece of documentary filmmaking I've ever witnessed. And I
watched it for the first time on election night, so
it was the therapy that I really needed. But it's
it's a brilliant, brilliant documentary. Highly recommend it. But yeah,

(30:19):
So the two movies kind of open similarly, where we're
rehashing the first one, but again in Lester's version. There's
no Marlon Brando. Marlon Brando apparently never existed, but we
do get that recap of last week on Superman and
then you know Donner's cut also, it's got footage with Brando.
But then it's got clips from the first movie, saved

(30:39):
from where Miss test Maker is saving saving Superman from
Lexus Pool, he's got that kryptonite around his neck, and
then sending the nuke into space. But I think it's
a little less hokey of a recap because Donner isn't
showing us how he would have started Superman two. He's
reminding us how he would have ended Superman one on
that cliffhanger.

Speaker 2 (30:57):
Yeah, it's really interesting, is like the opening of this movie.
We've got the base opening, and then all of a sudden,
we're getting a recap of the whole first movie. Yep,
And I'd forgotten the movie opens that way, and I
was just like, oh, right, this is just we're watching
Superman again. All right, this is the five minute version
of Superman. I'm in.

Speaker 4 (31:15):
It's kind of like the first seven Friday the Thirteenth movies.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
It's yeah, but it reminded me of being like it
reminded me of being a kid, and you know, before
the age of VHS, like truly the age of VHS,
when every house had a VHS player and there were
there were stores nearby that had films, and most films
were on VHS. When you had a favorite movie that
was geared towards kids, you got those old storybook records

(31:43):
with a book and you would go through and it
was all the highlights of the movie, and so you'd
listen to the movie, you know, a ten minute version
of the movie. As you're turning the page when you
hear the sound of the chimes, and you know, I
always wondered why it was a chime when I was

(32:04):
a kid, and then I grew up and was an
adult and realized because if it was any kind of beep,
it would drive parents up the fucking wall. And so
this nice light chime in the background is just not
very offensive. I bet they tested the fuck out of it.
But yeah, it reminds me of that. It's just all
the great highlights from that movie you loved when you
were a kid, you know, and as a kid, because

(32:26):
I watched both of these as they you know, as
a child, as a child child. So yeah, but I do.
I do delight in that.

Speaker 1 (32:37):
At the sound of the fifteenth beep, your parents are
getting divorced. Enjoy two Christmases.

Speaker 4 (32:43):
And it's your fault, and it's your fault. Goodbye.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
After these messages, we'll be right back.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
Hey, let's take a minute and meet Clark.

Speaker 2 (32:51):
Can't the star of Superman cheat? Believe me, you're in
for a treat just as soon as Jimmy.

Speaker 5 (32:56):
Gets back here, great Caesar's ghost.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
What's holding him?

Speaker 3 (33:00):
You know I can't work without a good breakfast.

Speaker 5 (33:02):
Chief, Jamie's bringing a box of Kellogg's Sugar Smacks, all.

Speaker 3 (33:06):
The more reason for hurrying, confounded that boring nose. I
like those new sugar Smacks, and he knows I do too.
That's a cinch.

Speaker 5 (33:13):
Well here I am, young man. If you spill those
new sugar Smacks.

Speaker 4 (33:18):
You are fired.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Golly, Chief, I hadn't opened up the box yet, but
I'm going through now. Folks, don't wait.

Speaker 5 (33:26):
Get Kellogg's new sugar Smacks.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
They're better than never.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
Puffs of wheat sugar toasted and candy sweet.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
You bet, just get Kellogg's Sugar Smacks brand new.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
By the way, since we cut out the storyline, you know,
the ending of the first movie where it's the missile
that Clark sends into space that releases General Zod and
his cohorts from.

Speaker 4 (33:49):
The Phantom Zone. We now need to come up with
something in the Leicester.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Cut that explains how they got out of the Phantom Zone.
And that is the reason for the Eiffel Tower opening
with the terrorists and the bomb and the elevator, which
does not exist in the Donner cut, because it was
literally just to fix for how they were going to
explain that they got out of the Phantom Zone.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
And in the Donner cut, I.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Just need to say this, speaking of the Phantom Zone,
Terence Stamp once he's freed, has this amazing line delivery
where he looks straight down the barrel of the camera
and just goes free.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
I fucking love it so much. It's not an the
Lestric cut. It's so fucking good.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
But then it also had me wondering, I don't understand
why in neither cut of this movie there isn't a
moment just after the Phantom Zone shatters that Zod doesn't
look at Ursa and go were you shouting?

Speaker 4 (34:43):
Forgive me?

Speaker 1 (34:45):
The whole time we were drifting through space like as
soon as they get locked in the phantom zone, like
Zod's like, you're kneel before me, you and your airs,
And of course non doesn't talk, but Ursa's just in there,
going forgive me, forgive me, like she's trying to cop
a plea bargain or something.

Speaker 4 (35:04):
I guess.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Another power granted to Zod by Earth's Yellow Sun is
completely ignoring blatant disloyalty, something I learned from from neither cut,
just from the opening of the first movie.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
Come on, Zod, you got to pick up on that shit.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
But yeah, the Leicester cut has the entire Eiffel Tower sequence,
which is kind of silly, but I guess works like
you need something to explode in space. Whatever the Donner
cut is. We just open at the Daily Planet and
Lois is already suspecting that Clark is Superman, and she
jumps out of a window at the Daily Planet to
prove that he's Superman. You'll save me, and then, you know,

(35:41):
very much like what happens at Niagara Falls in the
Leicester cut, he finds a way to surreptitiously save her
so that he's not also revealing himself. So that's like
the first obvious difference, right there is we don't go
to Paris in the in the Richard Donner cut.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, yeah, and Paris is, as you mentioned, silly.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's a little like the police officer who gets too
distracted by a translation book to like notice that Lois
is climbing under the the the trestles of the fucking elevator,
Which why did she do that? That just seems crazy
as well. Yeah, it's just it's it's silly. And it's
indicative of kind of the difference between Donner and Lester

(36:22):
and their approach to Superman is that Donner approached this
more as an epic piece of storytelling, a hero's journey,
wanted to take it very seriously, and Richard Lester openly admitted, like,
that's not really my bag. I make comedies. So he
inserted a lot of like silliness into it.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Well, and that was that was that was always a
problem with the early comic book movies, And this is
something that you have to really There was a I've
mentioned in the past, but there's a a famous article
from uh from Entertainment Weekly, and I believe it was
ninety seven, pretty certain it was ninety seven. In which

(36:59):
it was called super Zero, and it's why can't Hollywood
make a good superhero movie? And there they talked about
how there were early successes like Superman and Batman, but
that there were so many other failures along the way.
And one of the big problems was that Superman you
could be kitchy with, you could be tongue in cheek

(37:22):
because Superman was such a you know, gosh, golly g
Willakers kind of superhero that you could make something very
for color. Batman was something that kept evolving, and they
were always making every version. Like there's this famous meme
online of Doctor Manhattan going it is nineteen eighty nine.
I am sitting in a dark movie theater. I'm about

(37:44):
to watch a darker, grittier Batman. The year is two
thousand and four. I'm sitting in a dark movie theater.
I'm about to watch a darker, grittier Batman. The year
is the year is twenty twenty two. I'm sitting in
a dark movie theater. I'm about to watch a darker,
grittier Batman. And you know, we keep making Batman grittier
and grittier to the point that the current version is

(38:04):
almost autistic.

Speaker 1 (38:07):
You know what, I don't wish you could perceive time
as I do. I don't wish for that anymore.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, But but there is this whole thing of you know,
during the nineties, in order to try to make sense
of like how making a superhero movie that that could
work like Superman, which was for very for color, or
could be as outlandish and its own thing like the

(38:34):
Burton Batman's. Everybody kept grasping at straws and couldn't quite
find the balance until Fox made X Men. And once
Fox made x Men, that ushered in the era that
we're in now, where superhero movies are what they are
as much as you know they you know, people will
point to the you know, Iron Man as being kind

(38:54):
of the boom that's the beginning of MCU. At that point,
we already had to really great superhero movies that in
that decade in Batman Begins and The Dark Night, which
were its own thing, but everyone kind of realized how
you can do it serious while also being fun for
the family. And but when we go back to these movies,

(39:18):
these movies were very much like, well, these are comic
book movies, so we have to treat them like comic
book movies. So we got to be goofy with it,
and they get goofy with it in both. You know,
there is no one cut where it's like, oh, Donner
is less goofy. It's like, oh no, there's plenty of
goofiness in the Donner movies. This is true, you know,
right down to why would the greatest mastermind, criminal mastermind

(39:43):
in the world employ a complete and income poop. Why
Because that's how it was in the comics. You know,
it was, you know, bungling. There's you know, one of
the things a friend of mine was telling me, you know,
years ago that found fascinating was the fact that you know,
in the original comics, like if you were like, the
Donner movies were not. The Donner and Lester movies were

(40:05):
not particularly well received by hardcore comic fans because they
deviated so much from the established lore, which these movies
we now consider to be the established lore. But one
of the weird, weirdest things is that Lex Luthor, the
reason why he was so bitter at Superman was Superboy
while he was trying to stop something flew through a

(40:28):
window and knocked over a shelf full of chemicals that
mixed together and got on Lex and made all his
hair fall out. And the reason why Lex Luthor is
bald is because of super Boy, and since then he's
been trying to destroy Superman because he's so bitter that
he's bald now. And that's Lex Luthor's original origin story.

(40:51):
So you know, getting a little goofy with it is
kind of what they felt they had to do to
make a proper superhero movie at the time.

Speaker 4 (41:00):
Can I tell you why I love us?

Speaker 2 (41:03):
Do it?

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Let me fly around the world really quickly and take
you back to twenty eighteen. On our episode on Superman
seventy eight, I think I mentioned the peck and Paul
drawing a gun on the Salkenes, and you're exact, because
I just listened to it on my way home today

(41:24):
from work because I didn't want to repeat the junk
food pairing. Your exact response when I told you that
story is that's the most peckin pas shit I've ever heard.
And then, not seriously, not five minutes later in that episode,
you told that exact story about Lex Luthor losing his hair.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
A little piece of comic history. People raise your hand
if you know why Lex Luthor is bald and why
Lex Luthor hates Superman. Guess what, They're tied together because
the canon history of why Lex Luthor hates Superman is
because when he was Superboy, Superboy was battling a super

(42:06):
villain accidentally got knocked through a window, knocked over a
bunch of chemicals which fell on Lex Luthor, making all
of Lex Luthor's hair fall out, and Lex Luthor was
then bald and wanted to destroy Superman as a result.
That's what the that's what canon of this used to be.
It's why there's this whole gag about Lex Luthor wearing

(42:26):
wigs and then revealing his help is bald at the end.
That was Richard Donner and team making fun of the actual, stupid,
brain dead history of where Lex Luthor came from. Lex
Luthor one of the great villains in history. The original
Cannon version of him sucked, and this movie shattered.

Speaker 4 (42:48):
That we the two of us, are nothing if not
on brand.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
I mean, and this is seven years ago, seven years ago.
Twenty twenty eight is not two years ago, Guys, twenty
twenty eight is seven fucking years ago.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Eight is three years from now.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Actually, hundreds of episodes I've made, I've made like five
movies since then. I think how many how many fucking
movies have I made? I don't fucking know. I'm counting
four at least. Yeah. Uh, my brain is mush.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
Brain equals mush.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
I yeah. So if you're listening to Back Going, we
know this story, Cargo, I'm very sorry.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
No, no, no, that is not why I bring this up.
Because there is every episode we do with somebody's first episode.
I'm not worried about that. I bring it up because
it's just fucking hilarious to me that literally, like an
hour and a half ago.

Speaker 4 (43:48):
I heard this. It's like, now.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
I've had forgotten that story though you'd forgotten I told
that story.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
I yeah, and it just hit me just now that
you told it. I was like, holy shit, what is
happening with my brain?

Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yep? Well that is uh, that is the That is
a sign that may we need to hang up our headphones,
like maybe it's time to let the next generation of
movie podcasters move in. We've heard all the stories.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
People on iTunes have been telling us that for years,
and still we persist.

Speaker 2 (44:17):
Although I still think I'm pretty certain I still have
a couple of, you know, big stories to drop on
the show that you'll be like, wait, why have I
never heard this story before?

Speaker 4 (44:26):
And then I'll just start going back through old episodes
like what he did?

Speaker 1 (44:29):
He tell it before too. I know that it's again
Pepe Sylvia moment. That's what's gonna happen. Absolutely, another one
of the biggest differences between the Lester cut and the
Donner cut. You know, besides the fact that you know,
you got a lot of adr with Gene Hackman and
like to the point that they're they're adr ing people
around Gene Hackman. I don't know to match something or what,

(44:49):
but like there's lines of dialogue when they're in prison
that are changed between the two cuts. There's more actual
comedy between Gene Hackman and Ned Batty Bady, who's barely
in this movie, has a couple of funny moments. There's
one about uh there, you know, Lex is talking about
his plan. He's looking at the prison laundry. He holds
up a pair of boxer shorts and says, to Otis,

(45:12):
Slasher Fogelstein's a bedwetter and then hands it to him.
And then Otis is like standing next to a rack
of clothes and kind of leans over it to whisper
a rumor like Slasher Fogelstein's a bedwetter pass it on
and the rat closes and he's like, oh hi, mister Fogelstein,
Like there's there's like a good joke and it's completely
not in the Lester version. Uh So you're right, there
is definitely some silliness in the Donner version as well.

(45:35):
But the Niagara Falls thing, I think is another big
point of demarcation. Even though both films arrived there roughly
at the same point thirty minutes into the Donner cut
thirty three minutes into Lester's cut, Donner cuts almost immediately
from that to Lex arriving at the Fortress of Solitude,
because the entirety of lois jumping into Niagara Falls to
try and force Clark to prove he superman. It's it's

(45:57):
redundant at that point because you know Donner had already
done that at the beginning of the film, So we
get far more of Lex and miss Testmocker at the
Fortress of Solitude. And here is where I think the
biggest difference in the two versions is is you really
feel the absence of Brando if once you watch the
Donner cut. You go back and watch the Leicester cut,
you really feel that absence of Brando because in the

(46:21):
Leicester cut, when Miss Testmacher and Lex Luthor are in
the Fortress of Solitude messing with the crystals, it's some
random Cryptodian who's like reading poetry.

Speaker 4 (46:29):
And then we cut and it's.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Laura his mom, because again we can't get Brando back,
so we replace it with a random Kryptonian reading a
poem and then Laura the mom. Whereas you know, it's
Jurrell in the Donner cut reading that poem. And I
gotta tell you, man, Brando, just even though he's a hologram,
even though he's probably recording his lines to what he
called a green bagel with all the like special effects,

(46:53):
the man could fucking bring it, like he was, you know,
by a lot of accounts, kind of a monster. The
guy could fucking bring it.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
That's kind of a monster. Absence of Brando is my
favorite Colone. Absence of Brando.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
You know, he did call Johnny Depp the greatest actor
of his generation, and I feel like the commercial for
absence of Brando would totally be Johnny Depp in that commercial.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
No, like you've never stuck a stick of butter up
a woman's ass.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
Okay, you know I was gonna make a butter joke too,
and I thought better of it.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
But I did not. Oh you did say kind of
a monster, and so we have to remind people that no, no, no.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Full on monster.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Yes monster butter, not butter and Margarine situation.

Speaker 4 (47:40):
He is a full fat monster.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I can't believe it's not Brendo.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
Why do you say this to me when you know
I will kill you for it.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
The beauty is that inside you're you're you're so bitter.
You didn't make that joke.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
Here, I'm so butter. I didn't make that joke. Look,
the point is.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
And it's Brando explaining who's odd and his cohorts are,
and it's you know, you're learning it from Brando, like
I just I just think it has more weight to it.
It doesn't feel as like TV movie of the Week
as this scene does in the Leicester. But again going
back to what you were saying about even the Donner
cut having silliness, Miss Tech, there's a comedic note where
Miss Tesmoker needs to use the bathroom the whole time,
and she asks Lex to ask the hologram of Darrell

(48:22):
where the bathroom is? And when Lex finishes this epic
speech about could you imagine if there's three of them
and they all have the powers of Superman, you hear
a toilet flush, and you hear from mov's screen, I
found it.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
There's a fucking toilet joke.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
And you know why that's there to answer the important
question of whether Superman shits.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
Yes, yeah, yes, that's exactly like, oh, yeah, well, where's
the where's the bathroom in the bat cave? Well, they
found the bathroom in the Fortress of Solitude. And believe me, well,
I mean believe me if you know this, but you're
a dad. The true fortress of solitude is the bathroom.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
Oh my god, I that yes, it absolutely is. I
usually tell my family I'm gonna go take a meeting,
and they know that.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
Then you go. You drop the kids off with the
super Bowl? Sure, with the Browns up the kids off
of the pool, the Browns at the super Bowl. That's
that's my euphemisms that I'm mixing up.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yes, I can drop the I can't drop the kids
off of the pool. I don't see the Browns going
to the super Bowl anytime.

Speaker 4 (49:23):
Soon.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
Look, Cleveland just turned off the podcast, and that's fine,
I understand, But the fact that there.

Speaker 4 (49:29):
Is I mean, it's a fortress of solitude.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
It's not as if the Crystals installed a toilet for guests,
which means Superman's dropping some kryptonite in there. And that's
just something that I had always wondered about. So I'm
glad it's there to answer that question. It's answered, it's
asked and answered. Uh, you know, and then we got
you know, Zod and the crew are arriving on Earth,

(49:50):
and we've got all the Houston jokes.

Speaker 4 (49:52):
The planet Houston.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
It turns out it is a town called East Houston, Iowa,
which is a funny detail in there.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
It's one of those weird, weird jokes that you just
kind of question the logic and then just don't worry
about it. But you know, they're confused at you know,
planet Houston or Houston whostar and uh, and yet they
speak English.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
And yet they speak English.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
And yet at one point in the Donner cut, Superman's like,
haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
It's like, no, they fucking haven't.

Speaker 1 (50:28):
They absolutely fucking have not, Superman, And you know, that
don't be a dick.

Speaker 4 (50:32):
That's just pedantic. You know what, that's just panantic.

Speaker 1 (50:35):
That's one of the few places the Lester cut I
think is superior is this line in the Lester Cutters
would you like to step outside? Which is both a
badass line and a callback to that that truck stop
diner bully who you know he had that fight with
after he looses. Look, I'm getting ahead of myself, but
the point is, of course they don't know what the
fucking first Amendment is Superman, and you know that he does.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
He does. By the way, this.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Is the moment in The Donner Coat, which I think
is fascinating where because us we don't have that interior
of the hotel room in in in Niagara Falls. Because
in that scene they're talking about Lois jumping into the water,
which is not in.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
The Donner Cup.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
They have to come up with it, like there has
to be a scene where Lois finally proves that yes,
in fact, Clark is Superman. So Donner you know, obviously
filming this after the passing of I think both Margo
Kidder and and Christopher Reeve goes.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
To the screen test footage.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
There's a screen test wherein Lois finds out that Clark
is Superman. And I fucking love this scene. Even though
it's just, you know, a screen test, and a lot
of people have said that it kind of breaks up
the flow of the movie. I love it for a
number of reasons. I love it, first of all because
Superman as Clark, Christopher Reeve starts to push back against
Lois's repeated dismissal of him. And what I find fascinating

(51:55):
about that choice is that her dismissing him is exactly
what he needs to happen to sell this disguise. So
it's a good thing for him, like in terms of
maintaining this cover that Lois is dismissing him, but it
kills him because he is in love with her and
can't be with her, you know, most of the time,
because he has to be Clark and he has to

(52:16):
maintain this facade. And you really see Christopher Reeves acting Chops.
We've talked about this before, Cargill. One of Christopher Reeve's
greatest strengths was his ability to play multiple characters or
multiple versions of the same character within the same movie.
And this is just another example of how fucking good
he is at that.

Speaker 2 (52:33):
Oh yeah, yeah, no, And frankly, that's the that's the
better story, you know, the you know, her firing the
gun and him having the conversation with her about you know,
if I weren't Superman, you know, I Clark Kent would
be dead right now, and and her like, yeah, but

(52:54):
I knew.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
And oh she says from a blank she fired a
blanket him, right, she had her base. This is covered
either way. Yeah, I mean, Screwlex Luthor. This is the
greatest criminal mind in the world right here.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Well, I mean that's the that's the thing. And one
of the things I like about that scene is that
that scene really showcases who Lois Lane is and why
he's in love with Lois Lane. Like Lois Lane is,
you know, no slouch. You know, she is incredibly clever,
and these movies play so fast and loose that we

(53:28):
don't really get to see that very often, and in
that scene you absolutely do. In the in the Leicester cut,
not so much, Batman.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
I'm gonna let you finish. Lois Lane is the world's
greatest detective. I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Yeah, sorry, bats, sorry, bats. After these messages, we'll be
right back.

Speaker 5 (53:50):
Sounds like Lisa and Scotler clapped in the icy cave
of that frosty faced Cunn Captain Cole, this is a
job for Superman.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
My fast free zapper, well free Superman, Claria, No way,
captain your kids, my new Superman Hot Coco, Meg says,
the supertasting way to warm up, and see Captain Cold
can't take this warm reception.

Speaker 5 (54:13):
New Superman Hot Coco a super tasting way to warm up.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
I think it's interesting that you could literally chart the
differences as you move through the plot and talk about
this movie. One of the other big differences is that
there's a lot less screen time in the Donner cut
For one, mister Clifton James, who plays the small town
sheriff who also played Sheriff j W. Pepa from the
two earliest Roger Moore Bond films, playing pretty much that

(54:41):
exact character again.

Speaker 4 (54:44):
But yeah, there's there's just a lot of his part
that's cut out.

Speaker 1 (54:46):
There's a lot of the comedy, Like there's this whole
thing with like Ursa going to the small town and
challenging a guy to arm wrestle and throwing him out
the window, and then Zod lifting a guy off the ground,
like just a lot of this kind of slap sticky
stuff that you know that Richard Lester is all about that.
You know, it doesn't really work for me, but you know, I.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
Know, like the I think the worst moment, the worst
minute of the movie is when the the cop and
the deputy are driving and we've got their their inane banter,
and the banter is just kind of nothing and it's
a nothing burger. It's it's all leading to a joke
that the deputy is an idiot. You know, I can't
eat fish. Don't eat fish? Well, I guess the Lord

(55:27):
of the fish. Like, it's not.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Funny when it comes to jokes in this movie. Cargil,
they have a wide selection.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
They have a wide selection.

Speaker 4 (55:37):
They have a wide selection.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
That's the entire joke of that conversation is that he
just keeps yeah, you know, like just start talking about
a Royal with cheese or something. If you're gonna be
driving along and having conversations about fast food, like this.

Speaker 4 (55:48):
Is not it. This is not hit the same way
the Royal with cheese does. That's all I'm going to say.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
That ain't hit fam That ain't h.

Speaker 4 (55:54):
Fam as my children would say.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
By the way, though, one of the most bizarre fucking
elements that was cut out of this movie but still
inexplicably exists in the TV edit.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
Holy shit.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
So there's a scene where, uh, the cop car first
pulls up and the sirens are going, and Zod says,
I really like this blinking red light, but I don't
like this irritating sound. So Non walks up and rips
the light off of the cop.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
Car and like tries to hand it to him.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Apparently there is a scene that was taken out of
the Donner cut that he fucking shot where later later on,
like it's not too much later, there's a kid that
like gets on a horse and goes to ride for help,
and Zod says to Non, I said, no one leaves,
and Non chucks this red police light at this kid

(56:45):
and kills him.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
What the fucking kills a kid?

Speaker 2 (56:49):
He crist back, he got about that.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
I'm sorry, Why was that? Why how was that ever
gonna work in either of it? You cannot, Richard Donna,
look at me, Look at me right now, Look at me.
I know, I know from beyond the grave, look at me.
I understand that you had the more serious version. But
you have a toilet flush joke in the Fortress of Solitude.
You cannot put a toilet flush in the Fortress of Solitude.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
And child murder.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
By the most dim witted, maybe the most empathetic of
the villains in the same fucking movie. Is a great
poet once said that, ain't it fam.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Well, I mean, the thing is is, there's something that
I've talked about in the past. You know, there's the
concept of saving the cat, which is when a protagonist
does something great to make the audience like them. You know,
they do something selfless, they do something good. There's also
the idea of what we call kicking the dog, which

(57:45):
is doing something so evil that we absolutely want to
see these people taken down. And frankly, until the fight
scene at the end of the movie, these guys are
just a nuisance, right, Like, they don't really hurt anybody.
They just kind of bully people. They're just being bullies.

(58:06):
The movie is all about bullying in its own way,
you know, all throughout and and and so it's clear
that Donner's like, oh, we need to set up that
Superman needs to give up the love of his life.
He has to become Superman again to stop these people,

(58:28):
because clearly they are going too far, and up until then,
they're just kind of like wrecking shit and hurting people
but not actually doing anything like lethal. Even when they're
even when they take over the White House and they're
ruling the world, they're just kind of sitting in the
White House going, yeah, we're ruining the world, and that's

(58:50):
kind of boring. Yeah, sure is ruling the world, and
we I'm sure, I'm certain Donner thought, we need them
to do something that we cannot forgive them for so
that we can watch them get their asses fucking kicked.
And we want to see them get kicked, and that's
what he was thinking.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Yeah, And I mean I get that, and you're probably right,
but I do find it interesting that there was also
a scene that was excise from the script, so it
was never shot, called Villains Conquer the World. It was
a sequence in which zod Ursa and Non are destroying
you know, national monuments all over the country, like their
fucking rolling emeric or something, I don't know, And it
was never shot, and it considered, you know, using computer

(59:32):
effects to augment existing footage to put it back in
the Donner cut, but he Richard Donovito the idea, so
there was at least a plan at some point to
show them causing mass destruction instead of you're right, just
picking on this one small town. And even when the
military gets involved there, it's basically like a Gi Joe battle,
where it's like, well, we're blowing up things around them

(59:54):
and making them fall out of their trucks, like oh
my head, Like it's not there's no bloodshed. Even in
that sequence where they're literally fighting the military, you know,
it's no trashing an ie hop. Let's just put it
that way. The destruction is not quite the same as
later Superman movies would be. I think another of the
biggest differences in this movie has to do with Superman's

(01:00:16):
powers and the way he gives them up and the
way that he gets them back. And the reason I
want to talk about this is because I think the
two different versions, like I think Donner was going for
something very specific that the Lester version doesn't quite understand,
and the giving up to the power sequence to me,
is the clearest and most distinctive difference between the two version.

(01:00:37):
It's the moment that solidifies which way I will lean
I'm not saying which one is superior, because we're yeah,
we need to talk about how these things blend together.
But my preference for the Donner cut has to do
with the fact that the giving up of the powers.
In the Donner cut, it's a conversation. It's a conversation
where after, you know, because Superman brings Lowis of the

(01:00:58):
Fortress Solitude when she's figured out his secret. They make
love and then Kalel has a heart to heart with
Brando the hologram about I want to be with this woman,
It's all I want and you know, and Brando says,
if you're going to do that, you basically have to
give up your powers and become human, and that's when
he you know, shows him the chamber. The acting in
this scene from both Reeve and Brando is god tear.

(01:01:21):
It is so good because the entire time Drell is
urging him to reconsider, like this decision is permanent. You'll
no longer be special, you'll no longer be able to
protect these people, and Superman wants so desperately to be
with Lois.

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
But Reeves still plays this with a quiver and a
torment because he's trying to keep at bay, his desire
to avoid not only letting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:42):
The people of Earth down, but also his father, and
it is just incredible, Like and the fact that in
the Lester cut they took all the Brando stuff out
is basically having this conversation with his mother when I
think so much of what Donna was doing in this
movie is about the relationship between fathers and sons and
about how you know you can protect your you know,
especially the relationship and a father's son, like you try

(01:02:04):
and set them on the right path to be a
good man, and you can protect them from so much,
but you can't always protect them from their.

Speaker 4 (01:02:10):
Own bad decisions.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
And so much of that plays into so much of
this movie in the Donner cut, and it's lost in
the Leicester cut. Like there's even a shot where you know,
Lois is like on a perch overhead. They've again, they've
just made love. So she's like literally like wrapped in
his cape and she's looking down at what's transpiring, and
the hologram of Jirell like looks up at her and
kind of gives her a side eye, like just like

(01:02:35):
you're doing this to him. Like it's like there's a
fucking moment where it's just Brando's staring it off off
of a camera, and the way it's edited together and
the way that they play it, it is a devastating
emotional moment, and I I love it, like I really
love this version. And it's the one that made me
realize how much of this movie is about that that

(01:02:57):
you don't get from the Leicester cut. I mean, you
can't tell the storyorry about fathers and sons if the
father's not there, you know what I mean, Like it
doesn't quite.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
I mean, the Lester cut isn't about that at all,
not even a little bit. It's a very different film.
It's and it's it's also one that you know, I'm
just I've always felt like I really loved it when
I was younger, and the more I revisit it, the
more I feel like it is it is a sequel

(01:03:27):
because of the way it was developed. It is a
sequel in search of itself, sure, and that both cuts
of the movie are trying to find a movie within
what is essentially the back half of another movie, yes,
and so trying to set us up, trying to get
us into it. They both do it in very different ways,

(01:03:48):
you know, Lex is a very different you know, not
very different, but just is more comic relief in this
one than actual menace, which isn't at all what he
is in the Like he's there's comic relief in there,
but he is menacing. He does have a plot, and
that plot does get foiled at the end with one

(01:04:09):
of what is considered to be possibly one of the
biggest cop outs in movie history.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
Are you talking about the amnesia kiss?

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
No, I'm talking about traveling, flying so fast, you travel
back in time so that you can stop everything that
just happened in the movie. Oh yeah, And and the
the question that that has asked for for Time Immemorium,
especially that that old animated series that was uh on
early YouTube how it should have ended always made fun
of because it's like, excuse me, you could have just

(01:04:41):
flown back in time and and done and stopped this. Uh,
why didn't you do that?

Speaker 4 (01:04:47):
The oceans too, Like what the fuck? Man?

Speaker 2 (01:04:49):
Yeah, why don't why don't you just do that to
solve every problem you have? You know? Uh, you know,
so it's it's one of those that you know, but
that's how effective, you know, Lex Losor's plan is. In
the first one and this one. It's just you know,
convinced these guys to give you Australia.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
As and Cuba and Cuba and Cuba.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
By the way, if Superman flies backwards around the world, like, oh,
good for you, Lois doesn't remember your Superman. Meanwhile, you've
buried most of the continents underwater, motherfucker.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Also true, there is.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
No Australia anymore. Lex your fucks come to me Superman
if you dare.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
But I think, honestly, the most unforgivable aspect of the
Richard Lester cut is not even so much how the
power is taken away, although when you watch the reshot
version where it's Christopher Reeve and uh and and Laura
Susanna york Is that you can tell Christopher Reeve is
not his heart is not in that moment, like he's

(01:05:55):
still there, he's still present. But I think even he
knows that it was better the first time around, and
his performance it's just there's not any real kind of
complexity in it anymore. And it's really the unforgivable part, though,
is how he gets the powers back, because in the
lesser cut, it's literally just somebody dropped one of the
crystals on the ground and forgot about it, and then
later he finds it it starts glowing green, and then

(01:06:17):
the next thing we see he's gotten his powers back.
It's literally deusex crystal. Yeah, I found this crystal. I
guess not all of them were broken. Okay, I'm Superman again.
In the Donner cut, the Donner cut, we get the
emotional crux of this whole fucking movie when the last
green crystal conjures Durrell again, and first he chastises Superman

(01:06:38):
for his decision, but he also says, I anticipated you
might do something like this, and I also anticipated that
you would then want to reverse it, and you redeem yourself.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
And so what he does is he uses the last
bit of cosmic energy that is keeping him alive as
of this simulation. So the energy contained within his memory
is what he uses to restore Kalel's power. But there's
a sacrifice to that because it means there will be
no further contact between them, even from beyond the grave.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yeah, it cost something.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
It I wept like seeing And I don't know, Cargo,
I don't know if I mentioned this up top. I'm
not sure i'd ever seen the Donner cut all the
way through. Oh, because it came out, you know, like
in two thousand and six. Like it's not something that
I was like watching. Is like I watched the first
two Superman movies as a kid all the time. But
I'm not sure prior to this episode, prior to doing
the research, that I had really sat down and absorbed

(01:07:30):
the Donner cut and made note of the differences. But
this scene is emotionally magnificent, as Michael Scott would say,
and it wrecked me. And it culminates with this hologram
head seemingly all of a sudden becoming corporeal, and Marlon
Brando steps out and put his hand on clark'shoulder and says,
my son. And it's this beautiful, perfect moment that underlies

(01:07:51):
the entire point of what Richard Donner was doing with
this movie. And in the Lester version, it's just, hey,
I got my powers back off screen. I'm here, let's fight,
and it just it. You need that, man, You need
there to be a punch, you need there to be
a core to this movie. Because that's literally what Donner
was after. When I say that he was trying to
do something more serious and You're right, you could probably

(01:08:15):
do Superman, Kitchie. And there are jokes in this movie
that are silly, but there's the moments of levity in
this and then there is the deep emotional resonance that
sets this apart from something like the Batman sixty six
movie that is all camp, it's all tongue in cheek,
there is nothing, there's there's no stake to that sizzle.

(01:08:35):
This movie has the steak with the sizzle, and especially
the Donner cut is what I'm talking about specifically, and
it's just it's a fascinating, fascinating experience to watch both
of them back to back. What I was doing literally
is I would get about ten to fifteen minutes. I'd
get through a major set piece on one version, and
then I would stop and I would go to that
same like I'd basically kind of watch these movies in

(01:08:56):
fifteen minute chunks, Like I'd watch fifteen minutes a lesser,
then watch that same fifteen minutes of Donner and just
go back and forth until both movies were over. And
it was, apart from being a little psychotic, uh was
wildly enlightening.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Yeah, it's it's it's its own thing.

Speaker 4 (01:09:13):
But I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:13):
I don't want this to feel like all I'm doing
in this episode is kicking Richard Lester in the balls.
So let me just say this another like, even though
Richard Lester is responsible for the fucking cellophane s that
gets thrown at Non in this movie, one of the
dumbest moments in any comic book movie ever made, God

(01:09:34):
damn it, and that was that was that was Richard
Lester throwing a cellophane s. Jack O'Halleran as Non, what
are we doing here? But the ending in the Leicester cut,
despite having a silly device, and I think the ending
might be the most controversial demarcation between the two cuts.

(01:09:54):
I'm here to tell you I think the Leicester cut
works better because in the Donner cut, you know, he
defeats the Kryptonian three, he uses his eyelasers to destroy
the fortress, and then you know, there's this tacit agreement
between him and Lois, like your secret is safe with me.
They understand they can't be together because the world needs him,
and then all of a sudden, as Lois sits down

(01:10:17):
to start typing a story. Definitely, you know footage that
was shot in the early two thousands and not the
mid seventies. The world starts moving backwards, and then we
realize that he's doing that thing. He's flying around the
world and he's reversing everything so that she doesn't know
that he's Superman, which is fine, I guess, like again,

(01:10:38):
it was It was what Donner was going to do
with the ending of this movie.

Speaker 4 (01:10:42):
It's a stupid reset. It doesn't really work.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
But then it complicated even more because then he goes
back to the truck stop and kicks that guy's ass.

Speaker 4 (01:10:51):
I have so many questions.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
I have so many questions brought about by this flying
around the world backwards. Does that mean that because he
reversed everything, he also didn't stop Luther's nuclear missile at
the end of the first one? Or does that mean
Luther never fired it in the first place? And was
Luther still in the fortress when Clark destroyed it or.

Speaker 4 (01:11:07):
Was that also undone?

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
And also, since he erased the events of the last
week or so, doesn't that mean the guy that truck stop.

Speaker 4 (01:11:14):
Has no idea who Clark is?

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
And if so, doesn't that make Clark the aggressor for
pre cog beating the tar out of this man?

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
I have so many questions, Cark, you do have questions.

Speaker 4 (01:11:26):
I mean, do you do you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Not think about this, about all of the all of
the problems, like this is not a it's not a real.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
I absolutely do. I mean this is why I have
said there's better things in both versions. You know, there's
I don't think there's one truly perfect version. I think
Lester's ending is better. I also think that the you know,
the scene with the blank is better. And I think

(01:11:54):
that you know, uh, Donner better than.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
Better than Clark slightly burning his hand and because there's
no damage, he's like, you have to be superman, and
everybody just agrees with that exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:12:03):
Also, I you know, I prefer you know, Donners opening
to uh to the French, uh, the French terrorists. I
also think joerel Is you know with with Brando is
significantly better. That father son stuff is great, and the
cost of that that does it. That did bother me

(01:12:24):
a lot while we rewatching the Lester cut today, where
I was just like, oh, right, there's really you know,
we're told you'll never be able to go back, and
then he goes back because there must be a way
to go back, and he finds the crystal and now
he's back, and it's like, but that's we were told
you know, what are you doing here? And again because

(01:12:45):
it was a superhero movie. Oh whatever, logic is, you
know who cares? We care? God, damn it, we fucking care.
And so yeah, I've I've long felt that both both
cuts have their merit. Neither is perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Yeah, And in the Leicester cut, when they beat the
Kryptonian three, he doesn't destroy the fortress. They go back
to New York and Lois talks about I mean, it's
a great bit of acting for Margo Kidder, like her talking,
and she's great in this movie. And I hate how
dirty she was done by the Salkenes because apparently because
she spoke up that you know, we shouldn't be reshooting
all this, and her loyalty to Donner, that's the reason

(01:13:21):
why when they let Lester fucking direct Part three, she
is sidelined. She's barely in that fucking movie. She's at
the beginning to tell you why she's not in the
rest of the movie. And that's it, like basically a
punitive measure against how dare you side with Donner? How
dare you speak up against this we're basically gonna write
you out of the next movie that's fucked up, that's

(01:13:42):
really really fucked up.

Speaker 2 (01:13:44):
And she got written out of the not a great movie.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
That's true, and I'm sure she's like, thanks her. So
you think her lucky stars every day that she didn't
have to be in Superman three.

Speaker 4 (01:13:53):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
But you know, in the Lester ending, she's telling him
in this great moment that like knowing that she she
knows his secret, she's gonna keep it, but not being
able to be together is killing her. So like she says,
this is killing me. And this is where we use
this this very dumb device, this amnesia kiss where Superman
gives her a kiss so good that it wipes her memory.

(01:14:14):
And I hated that for years, even like when I
was younger, I was like, that's so stupid. He just
kisses her and she forgets But watching that scene more
closely and scrutinizing both versions, the motivation for him doing
it and the problem that it solves is fairly elegant.
It's just a stupid device, Like it's on par with
the amnesia bullets from Wolverine. I get that, but there

(01:14:36):
is at least a solid motivation, and Christopher replays it
well and then it solves the problem in a much
more elegant way than just flying around the world backwards.
So yeah, I mean, I kind of like I don't
hate it as much, and I think this ending actually
functionally works better because Donner's ending is not an ending,
it's a fix, it's a patch.

Speaker 4 (01:14:58):
This is an actual ending.

Speaker 1 (01:15:00):
Clark goes back to the truck stop and has a
less inappropriate dust up with the bully trucker, and there's
actually dialogu where the cook says, you know, take it easy,
I just had this joint fix.

Speaker 4 (01:15:07):
It costs me a fortune.

Speaker 1 (01:15:09):
And then after he beats up this dude because he
got his powers back, he says to the cook, oh,
I've been working out, directly referencing the fact that he
got his ass kicked before, which, by the way, in
that scene again, Christopher Reeve an incredible actor. When he
starts getting his ass kicked, it's not the physical pain
of being beaten, it's the fear in the shock of
like being able to feel pain at all. And yet

(01:15:31):
he keeps getting up because the one thing that that
chamber did not remove from him was his sense of righteousness.
So he's still fucking Superman, just without the powers. And
again Reeve.

Speaker 4 (01:15:44):
Playing multiple versions of the same character in the same movie.
He makes that moment distinctive and it's fucking amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:15:51):
After these messages, we'll be right back.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
Superman treat. Now you'll tell me why Superman peanut butter
tastes so great, never.

Speaker 4 (01:16:05):
So fresh, roasted, so creamy, so yummy. Secret would be mine?

Speaker 3 (01:16:10):
Oh mine, I foiled again.

Speaker 4 (01:16:17):
Just wait, Superman.

Speaker 5 (01:16:18):
I'll find out Superman peanut butey.

Speaker 4 (01:16:21):
Its strength is its great taste. I defire.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
And this is where I've arrived on this debate cargo.
Like I grew up understanding Superman two's reputation as one
of the rare sequels that surpasses its original. Like even
Ebert said that, like it was a thing like up
for many, many years, people would say, Oh, I like
Superman two better than Superman.

Speaker 4 (01:16:38):
It's the best.

Speaker 2 (01:16:39):
I was one of those, Yeah, And.

Speaker 1 (01:16:41):
It's just you know, I think there's like the characters
in it, the story that it's trying to tell we're
invested in it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:46):
We've been invested in it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:47):
So it's framed one of the first movie and when
the Donner cut was released, I dialed into this tide change.
I did notice that, you know, it was suddenly universally
understood that Lester is a clown, and Donner's version isn't
merely supreme, it's the only acceptable cut, which was so
wild to me that it happened that fast, and I
think maybe even I bought into it a little bit.

(01:17:08):
And even though I hadn't like sat down and finished
the whole thing, it made me start noticing the things
in the Lester cut I didn't like. And admittedly there
are still some comedic beats outed by Lester that I
can't fucking stand. But ultimately, as Cargio said, neither version
is perfect. Each has its functional problems. I think Donners
is an epic, pensive heroes journey that's as moving as

(01:17:29):
it is entertaining. The Brando stuff is brilliant, But recutting
the movie in two thousand and six he was backed
into the same logistical corners that led to the ending
being broken in the first place. And while Lester's ending
has a more functional ending, it's predicated on a wholly
stupid and entirely contrived plot device that, upon rewatch, is laughable.

(01:17:50):
But even though I think Lester's ending is better, I
don't like Lester's over the top goofy shit because it
clashes with the more serious approach to the superhero that.

Speaker 4 (01:17:59):
Donner took part one, even with some of his jokes.

Speaker 1 (01:18:02):
And I also can't suss out how much credit we
should even be giving to Lester since he came into
an almost finished film and reshot enough to be able
to take credit, Like, how much of this movie are
we even attributing to Richard Lester? And how much of
the things we're attributing to Richard Lester are good are
worthwhile he.

Speaker 2 (01:18:21):
Was doing stuff behind the scenes before that though correct.

Speaker 1 (01:18:25):
He was doing some second unit directing when Donner and
the Salkings weren't getting along. Yeah, but I mean, yeah,
it's he was there. I just think that a lot
of this is an attempt to sort of nineteen eighty
four the past and be like, oh no, no, we're gonna
fly around the world and pretend that Richard Lester directed
this movie when really Richard Lester redirected this movie. Yeah,

(01:18:47):
And I think this is especially suspicious when you see
what a disaster Superman three is when Lester has full control.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
This time is going to be the best charm movie.
But again, that movie was built entirely Richard Pryor.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
Because Richard Pryor kissed the ass of the saul Kinds
when he appeared on Carson one night. That's go fucking
look that up. The whole reason Richard Pryor is the
star of Superman three, it's because he went on Carson
and said, oh, I'd love to be in a Superman movie.
Those saul Kinds, man, I wish they'd give me a call.

Speaker 4 (01:19:14):
Boom.

Speaker 1 (01:19:14):
He's the star of Superman three. Apparently back in the day,
all you had to do was go on Carson. You
can get anything you want.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
I mean, that is also true.

Speaker 4 (01:19:23):
It's a weird, wild stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:19:26):
But in the in the end, the perfect version of
Superman two still eludes us. And that's that's just where
we land.

Speaker 2 (01:19:32):
That is where we land. But it's still better than
three and four.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
It's still better than three and four, that's for goddamn sure.
And I wish I wish Richard Donner, who was offered
the chance to come back and direct Superman four, had
come back and directed Superman four, because that would have
been something to behold. He was busy in nineteen eighty
seven with some other movie. I don't know, some buddy
cop action. I don't know if anyone's seen it, like

(01:19:56):
loaded weapon or something, I don't know, whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:19:57):
It's like that, you know, And this movie, you know,
it may not have you know, or were four rather
four may not have been made at the same studio,
but it's still cannon.

Speaker 4 (01:20:09):
Still fucking cannon as it turns out.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
I also want to just throw a quick shout out
before we get to the junk food peng when I
throw a quick shout out to Sarah Douglas, who plays
Ursa in this movie. She's great. She's very cold, she's
very like. The way she moves is very angular and
weird and awesome. And unfortunately she was dubbed throughout most
of the Leicester cut by the woman who would then
be the actress who played the woman who was consumed

(01:20:35):
by the computer. And Superman three dubbed most of Ursa's
lines for the Leicester cut of Superman two, which is
an adjustice on two different levels.

Speaker 2 (01:20:43):
Yeah, and she's I did not get a chance because
we spend so much time time about the two different cuts.
I didn't really get a chance to talk about. But
one of my favorite little quirks that I noticed on
this viewing that I'd never really picked up on in
the past and as a kid, was her collecting all
the badges. Yes, like I remember her taking the deputy's badge,

(01:21:05):
but in a couple of shots you can see she
also has the badge for that she stole from the astronaut.
Like she's literally collecting trophies. What a backward planet.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
This must be.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
Where the men were the ribbons.

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
She's a fascinating actress that had that did so much
great stuff. We talked about her recently in Solar Babies
and you know, oh yeah, no, she was all over
the place for a while. If you needed an evil bitch,
she was your evil bitch. You know, she worked her
way up. She actually is, you know, just one of

(01:21:44):
the party guests in roller Ball. But so she's in
the Superman movies. She was in v as Pamela. She
was in Conan the Destroyer, she was in Solar Babies.
She was one of those women that me growing up.
She was always the bad guy and I loved that.
I always adored seeing her on film. And then of

(01:22:05):
course she would show up in a boom. We should
probably talk about at some point that. I don't think
you and I have ever discussed a Return of Living
Dead part three.

Speaker 4 (01:22:15):
Oh sure, Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (01:22:17):
Just such a fun fucking movie.

Speaker 4 (01:22:19):
I do like that movie.

Speaker 2 (01:22:20):
Actually, so do I. I had that poster on my wall
for a long time.

Speaker 4 (01:22:25):
It's a great poster.

Speaker 1 (01:22:26):
I mean with the woman with the claws and all
the like shards of glass or whatever in her skin.

Speaker 4 (01:22:30):
Oh yeah, yeah, poster man. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
Yeah. But so she's really great here.

Speaker 1 (01:22:36):
You know, she almost played evil in by the way.
She she had to turn it down and then Meg
Foster took the role, but we were this close to
having her as evil in In them, well.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
Sarah Douglass is her and Meg Foster are the two
bad bitches, like they're if you wanted to if you
needed a bad bitch in an eighties movie, those were
your women. You went to one of the two and
they were they you. And every time they're on screen,

(01:23:04):
there is never a moment where you don't think they
are one of the most menacing things in the world.
They were both so great at this and she's just
really good here.

Speaker 1 (01:23:15):
Yeah, I think she's fantastic. By the way, one quick
game of I bet you don't know this person's in
this fucking movie, John Ratsenburger.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Oh yeah, as that brief, I was in high school.

Speaker 1 (01:23:29):
John fucking Ratsenberger as Controller number one.

Speaker 4 (01:23:34):
Holy shit balls.

Speaker 2 (01:23:36):
At a huge, huge year for him if you think
about it, because uh, he would then go on to
do Battle Truck, which you know huge.

Speaker 4 (01:23:46):
I'm sorry, what's the name of that movie again?

Speaker 2 (01:23:48):
Battle Truck, Battle Truck.

Speaker 4 (01:23:51):
There it is absolutely fuck yeah. No. I appreciate that
this movie exists.

Speaker 1 (01:23:57):
I appreciate that we have both versions now so we
can kind of compare and contrast and see where different
threads were going to lead us. And I just I
think maybe I would like to see your Friends edit
of this movie, because I feel like the closest to
perfect version of this movie is a weird Frankenstein of
the two of them, and it would be an interesting
experiment to try and breed the elements that work from

(01:24:17):
Lester's cut and the ones that work from Donner's cut
into something that, you know, I don't know if it
would be fully fluid from start to finish, but it
might be a little bit closer to what was intended
before Battle Truck and that brings us to the junk
food pairing, And for this one, I didn't go with
the Superman ice cream because that's literally what we picked
for Superman seventy eight, So instead I went with Superman

(01:24:40):
peanut butter. In the era of shameless licensing and mass
marketing to kids like never before, nineteen eighty one saw
the release of Superman peanut Butter, made by the good
folks at sunny Land Refining Company. That sounds wholesome. Whether
you opt for crunchy or smooth, rest assured your jar
of Superman peanut butter will be almost as sticky as
trying to debate which is the superior cut of Superman two.

(01:25:01):
One of my favorite things about learning about Superman peanut
butter is learning that these jars of peanut butter evidently
also included coupons for the Superpowers toy line, which made
possibly the greatest Justice League figures ever made. That my
grandmother definitely bought my brother and I an entire case
of at a garage sale.

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
Right on.

Speaker 4 (01:25:21):
What's your junk food pairing for this movie?

Speaker 2 (01:25:23):
Fresh squeezed orange juice? Of course it is, you know,
no matter how many cigarettes you're smoking. That orange juice
is gonna keep you healthy as long as you have
a thousand milligrams a day.

Speaker 1 (01:25:32):
Yeah, I'm gonna need you to include those cigarettes, because
oranges is way too healthy a food pairing for this
particular show.

Speaker 4 (01:25:38):
So let's add in the cigarettes.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Cigarettes and fresh squeezed orange juice. That is that is,
that is the breakfast of champions. That is, if you've
never kissed somebody after that back in the eighties or nineties,
you have no idea what you're missing.

Speaker 4 (01:25:52):
Taste like Houston, Taste like Houston. Thank you for taking.

Speaker 1 (01:25:56):
This journey through space and time with us as we
discussed both versions of Superman two. You rest in peace
to Terrence Stamp, an actor that was always always compelling
to watch, credible roles across you know what, almost eighty
years of fucking film roles to go back and and mine.
If you haven't exposed yourself to enough. Terrance Stamp just

(01:26:19):
a real giant and I'm sorry to see him go,
but a life well lived for sure. If you would
like more junk foods in him, of course, you can
follow us on social media and get eleven years of
this shit on your favorite podcast here, And if you
really like the show.

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
I mean, you really liked the show.

Speaker 1 (01:26:34):
If you like it as much as I am, definitely
gonna dare myself to eat a nineteen eighty one jar
of Superman peanut butter, you can go to patreon dot
com slash junk Food Cinema financially support the show and
try to stop me from doing that. Cargill, where can
people find you on the interwebs?

Speaker 2 (01:26:47):
You can find me on Blue Sky at c Robert
Cargill dot Bluesky dot Social. You can find me all
over the place in media. Right now, we got two
new anthologies out. We've got Haunted Reels two where you
can read my new st eat the Rich. Just released
is The End of the World as We Know It,
set in the world of Stephen King's The Stand a
Stephen King approved and he loves it anthology. You can

(01:27:10):
read my story Wrong Fucking Place, Wrong fucking Time. You
can find my new book All the Ash We Leave
Behind at Subterranean Press, coming soon on audiobook if that
is your thing. You can find my latest movie, which
is being talked about again for all sorts of weird reasons,
The Gorge, streaming on Apple Plus and coming in October.

(01:27:33):
You've got Black Phone two coming out in theaters, so
if you dig my shit, there's new shit for you
out there.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
Thank you very much, Gargo. I'm going to wrap up
the show with an important lesson from Jarrell. The virtuous
spirit has no need for thankful approval, only the certain
conviction that what is being done is right. That being said,
please support us on Patreon because I don't have a
virtuous spirit.

Speaker 4 (01:28:16):
I defire you.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
I will done one second. I have had a dog invade, okay,
and she's wet and.

Speaker 4 (01:28:27):
Wet dog, wet dog. I'm a wet dog.

Speaker 1 (01:28:31):
You can tell me off before I start to smell
like dog.

Speaker 4 (01:28:34):
Wet dog, wet dog.

Speaker 2 (01:28:36):
All right, and we're back.

Speaker 4 (01:28:38):
I was singing a whole Tom Jones song.

Speaker 2 (01:28:39):
About your well, I know I was there.

Speaker 4 (01:28:41):
Oh good, I'm glad you got you

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