482: Romain Tourillon on Forefoot Training, Toe Strength, and Athletic Development

Today’s guest is Romain Tourillon. Romain is a sports physiotherapist and researcher specializing in the foot–ankle complex, with clinical leadership at the Swiss Olympic Medical Center, La Tour Hospital (Geneva). His PhD at Université Jean Monnet Saint-Étienne examined foot muscle strength and sport performance. It’s important to train the lower legs in athletes, but the question is what type of training is best, especially when it comes to working the toes and forefoot, versus more general calf and shin work. In this episode, Romain discusses his research on forefoot biomechanics and performance. He shares training that boosted MTP (big-toe) flexion strength ~28% in trained athletes and explains how stronger forefeet enhance sprinting, cutting, and jumping via better force transmission and stability. We also cover injury prevention, targeted foot/ankle exercises, challenges in measuring toe strength, and where 3D analyses may take the field— with practical takeaways for coaches and athletes throughout. Today’s episode is brought to you by Hammer Strength and the Just Fly Sports Online Courses Check out the newest mini-course, Sprint Drills Reloaded on how to maximize sprint drills, their specific strength development, building of major sprint actions, along with better integration of sprint drills into sprinting technique. The special intro sale ends July 1st. (https://justflysports.thinkific.com/courses/sprint-drills-reloaded) Use code “justfly10” for 10% off the Vert Trainer Use code “justfly20” for 20% off of LILA Exogen Wearable resistance gear at www.lilateam.com View more podcast episodes at the podcast homepage. (https://www.just-fly-sports.com/podcast-home/) Timestamps 0:00 Building a PhD Protocol from Real-Life Training 4:46 Using Everyday Objects to Innovate Foot Training 8:16 Surface Texture and Proprioception in Barefoot Work 11:27 Breaking Down Romain’s PhD Research on the Forefoot 16:22 Gym and Home-Based Protocols for MTP Flexion 22:11 Measuring Toe and Forefoot Strength Accurately 31:20 Mobility of the Forefoot and Its Role in Force Production 37:31 Results: How 8 Weeks of Forefoot Training Changed Performance 43:54 Explaining the Improvements in Cutting, Jumping, and Sprinting 53:01 Linking Forefoot Strength to Ankle Stability and Injury Prevention 58:23 Isolated Toe Training vs. Global Foot and Calf Training 1:15:09 Designing General Foot-Ankle Programs for Teams Actionable Takeaways 0:00 – Building a PhD Protocol from Real-Life Training Romain developed his research exercises by first experimenting on himself to understand their feel, intensity, and weaknesses. Test new foot or ankle drills on yourself first to refine cues and feel. Note the sensations and difficulties athletes might face before implementing. Use self-testing to build better communication and progression strategies. 4:46 – Using Everyday Objects to Innovate Foot Training The “foot bridge” concept came from standing barefoot on two bricks, showing that creative setups can unlock new sensations without expensive tools. Incorporate simple props like bricks or angled boards to change foot loading. Create small balance challenges to engage the toes and arches differently. Use low-cost, adaptable tools to spark innovation in foot training. 8:16 – Surface Texture and Proprioception in Barefoot Work Different surfaces alter how foot muscles activate, making proprioception a key training variable. Rotate athletes between rough, smooth, and dampened surfaces to shift activation. Use barefoot drills regularly to strengthen sensory feedback from the toes. Treat surface texture as a deliberate tool to adjust difficulty and stimulus. 11:27 – Breaking Down Romain’s PhD Research on the Forefoot Romain studied how forefoot strength training impacts sprinting, cutting, and jumping performance. Add structured toe flexion and forefoot drills to comple...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Roman, it is awesome to have you back, and I'm excited to dig into your PhD
that has now been published.
I know we were talking about it at the end of last show, but before we dig into
that, I'm curious, what does the researcher do for your own training when it
comes to the foot and ankle?
How does that go about in your own practice?

(00:23):
Yeah, hi, Joel. Thanks for the invitation for, I would say, the part two.
So now the job is done
I finished my PhD so I
can talk about all the results well
that's really a good question in regards to I always say the protocol that we

(00:44):
created for this PhD I always say that all the exercise first came from my own
training just that I really like you know,
to go much more into details around foot ankle biomechanic research.
And I have some kind of idea looking at research and say, okay,

(01:08):
I can try to create this one.
Or if you put the tools like that, or if you have this position, et cetera.
And one of my philosophy as a rehab coach is also, you know, to,
I would say, be able to do all the exercise that that can give to your athletes.

(01:30):
Also, because you understand a little bit the feeling and the intensity or the
way that you have to do it.
So, I would say that's all things,
yeah, was part of my idea
of training and many things and if
we go back to for example the foot bridge the foot

(01:53):
bridge and put just two bricks and put the foot here yeah came during the covid
lockdown I was uh you know at home like everyone and I was just in my garden
and I have to to kind of break from the whole world and And just,
I was barefoot and just put my foot on that.

(02:18):
And I remember that I was just reading a book, so not was very concentrated
on the exercise, but just do some balance on one leg and read a book on too big.
And yeah, I feel something around my arch.
And I say, oh, it could be great, et cetera. So I would say that a lot of things

(02:42):
come from doing research, reading research, and that gave me some idea.
And this summer, for example, I...
Profiling my calf on my own. So just evaluating many parameters from my calf, both legs.

(03:02):
So I would say reactive strength, capacities, and maximal strength,
both in knee flexion, knee extended position.
And I start to just build my own program in four weeks,
just two sessions and so that's also

(03:23):
one example that I can give to my
courses just train on my own and to
see how I can change my own you know weaknesses because this is not all your
athletes that have some weaknesses and to work also on that to understand what
it is also to train hard the car for example it was my goal during the summer and et cetera, yeah.

(03:50):
Yeah, I think that there's a lot of foot training potential ideas sitting in anyone's garden.
I would, like there was rocks when I moved into this house that I'm in five years ago.
I would walk around outside and I'd find like an interesting rock and stand
on it and think, oh, this feels interesting to put my foot this way on this rock.

(04:11):
And then the bricks is interesting as well. I know Adarian Barr,
who's been on the show many times, has been very much into bricks for training the foot.
I would usually see him using more for forefoot applications where you would
cut a brick in half and just have the front arch or the balls of the feet on
the brick and then doing different manipulations.

(04:34):
That's so cool that you have that midfoot application. So like the heels on
one brick and the forefoot's on another brick and you would stand on that for however long.
Yeah, and it's funny because I think now it's maybe also because everyone asks

(04:54):
me about, you know, how do you know how I can have U-inkling plate,
U-bricks, U-etc.
So actually, I have so many ideas of objects,
you know, that I can build because I build with my father so many little custom-made

(05:16):
things for foot and ankle training.
And yeah, I think it's a good idea maybe in the future it's maybe to create
a kind of company where I build all my ideas where you can have the things for the first race,
the things for the third foot, the things for the might foot,

(05:38):
the things for the mobility and etc so yeah I always said that's um the the
greatness of our job is that there is no good or I would say or bad exercise there is just some,
parameter that you really have to focus on but you can really have different

(06:02):
kind of way of targeting things.
The big thing is just that it's at the end you have the same effect.
I would say it's not that we don't care or we move from A to B,
it's just that we can have so many different things.
Also it's cool to have different kind of exercise for your athletes,

(06:26):
you know, kind of preference because athlete A.
Doesn't like you exercise or this exercise and prefer to do the other one and
it's also it's cool also to have a kind of you know uh variety of your own exercise
also it's not just I think one or two exercise also yeah.

(06:49):
Yeah the I think that's very common that like a foot exercise will come out
and everyone just thinks oh everyone this is the gold standard this one foot
exercise and everyone should be doing or this isometric and everyone should,
that should be like this standard that we all do.
But I know last time we talked about the forefoot dominance or midfoot exercises

(07:12):
and or intrinsic foot versus more of that calf. And I want to get into that today as well.
The one thing before I ask you about your research and the studies and the findings
there, because I really am excited to unpack that in depth today.
I think last at the end of last podcast, we might've spent three or five minutes talking about it.

(07:35):
And I wanted to ask you the bricks though about like the sensation,
just because I think that's something that we don't, that's one of those more
subtle things that maybe we don't talk about in more the research,
the more mathematical sense so much,
like being barefoot on bricks versus if you just had like a smooth,
I don't know, like a box, a really smooth box or something.

(07:57):
Do you have any thoughts on the texture of what you're standing on or like a
no slip grip where it's like that rough like sandpaper kind of type feel of
what you're standing on?
Do you have any thoughts on that with the surfaces that we train on or utilize
for anything that's barefoot in nature?
Yeah, that's a good question. I think that from a proprioceptive things,

(08:24):
we know that the foot and ankle really have the ability to change his biomechanics
regarding to the surface that you are in contact with,
meaning that if you have a damping surface, so something that dissipates energy but not, you know,
release it or not give you back, We know that it will increase your foot and

(08:49):
ankle muscle activity to perform these energetical things.
That's the same when you run or when you have some stiffness or springness of the surface.
Where we know that if it helps you, your brain will know that.
And after your foot and ankle, it's turned off a little bit.

(09:10):
Just to have a kind of economic things.
But when it came to exercise, I really try to be barefoot as most as I can,
just because I like to see also the engagement of the toes or the engagement of the muscle.

(09:32):
And I really try to do it barefoot and also between, you know,
kind of intensity of max intensity and also some discomfort.
Sometimes barefoot could be painful or could be not comfortable if it's,
you know, the brick, for example, it's too stiff or etc.

(09:54):
That's also the preference of the athletes.
And so, but for most of the time, I really try to be barefoot during my exercise.
So, for example, if we talk about the protocol of my PhD,

(10:14):
98% of the time all the athletes did the five exercises barefoot here.
But yeah, that's always the thing between what you want in terms of things and
maybe you can change because of this, yeah, painful things or discomfort here.

(10:40):
I prefer to have, for example, max intensity that, you know,
he push hard, for example, on the ground, etc.
Pain tree that barefoot and, you know, that's my, I would say,

(11:00):
philosophy around that.
And not always barefoot, but most of the time.
Yeah, so let's dig in then to that PhD research.
And I just think it was so interesting to me. I know, again,
you talked about it last time.
So could you explain, again, for those who caught the last podcast,
but re-share about the research, but then let's dig into the results and the

(11:23):
training implications for that.
Well, the idea was pretty simple. It's just that the foot and curl complex,
it's pretty hard and complex in terms of anatomy. so many joints, many muscles, etc.
So the idea was just to have a look in the MTP joint, so we can call it the forefoot.

(11:50):
So the idea of the PhD was really to, I would say, investigate the role and
the function of the forefoot flexion strength, so the strength into flexion.
So the role and the function of the strength of the
forefoot into the propulsion

(12:11):
kinetics and into how
we said the overall performance during three main tasks which was sprinting
cutting and jumping in athletes so for this PhD we have three big parts number
one was creating a dynamometer or

(12:34):
ergometer that was able to evaluate precisely and validately the strength of the MTP flexion.
Number two was a study, a cross-sectional study where we took five athletes,
healthy and highly trained athletes in five different sports.

(12:58):
And evaluated the strengths of their forefoot.
Also, some other foot parameters like foot morphological deformation,
foot postures, foot anchor reactive strength, and also the strength of the calves
isometrically and the quadriceps.
And after we just performed all the kinetics evaluations, so ground reaction

(13:24):
force during two different parts of the acceleration phase,
and cutting, horizontal cutting, vertical jump, horizontal jump,
and after 90 degrees of cutting.
So it was cross-sectional, meaning that it's just one time, or I would say two

(13:45):
times, so one was familiarization.
And after we wanted to know the association or the relationship between MTP
flexion strength and foot parameters in relation to some kinetics.
So the kinetics was propulsion kinetics, meaning the impulse,

(14:08):
and also the ratio of force.
So we also evaluate, I would say,
not just the amount of force that you can produce, but also the transmission
of force that you can put on the ground, so the direction of the resultant of the 3D forces.

(14:29):
And the last part was basically the same evaluation,
but was the same evaluation after a protocol of eight weeks of improving the
strength of the forefoot, where we have a control group and a training group.
And we have also, so before we have a control period, So just to have a look

(14:57):
into the variation and viability of our measurement.
So to make sure that when you don't train, or to make sure to see if you don't
train, you have a stable, you know.
I would say variation or change, stable change on all of your metrics.

(15:19):
After you have the training of eight weeks, so two sessions per week.
And after you have the post-training evaluation and after we portrayed also day-training period.
So to understand how it is or what was the effect of the day-training period
around all the parameters.

(15:40):
So did you have the same strengths or did you lose because you stopped the protocol?
So yeah, so part one, part two, part three was that.
So pretty straightforward PhD around very, you know, precise region of the foot.

(16:02):
So just the forefoot. So only exercise around the forefoot and to see if you have some effects.
So that was the goals.
Got it. And then forefoot, like use MTP joint, is that toe training more so
than calf raise based training? Or could you explain that?
Yeah, if you look at our protocols.

(16:29):
Basically it's all around the MTP, yes.
So meaning that we have, so for the gym session, so it was a session based in the gym.
We have a forefoot MTP flexion, so with heavy load and etc.,

(16:49):
and electrical stimulation in certain positions, so it was Exercise 1.
Exercise 2 was a heavy load for the first race, so it was, I would say,
an exercise focusing or targeting only the first race.
So it was a first-ray push on, I would say,

(17:14):
an inclined leg curl, So it's just like a soleus kind of position,
but you only push on your first and you want to elevate your heel thanks to
the flexion of your first.
So it's a navy load exercise for the first, Ray.
After we have a really

(17:35):
kind of inclined pogo jump
but pogo really with the forefoot I would say interaction with the ground so
really forefoot plyometrics so this was our three exercises in the gym session so we also increased,

(17:57):
so it was also heavy loading plyometric just meaning that.
At the end, you change the inclination, so to work on much more the lateral
part of the forefoot and the medial part of the forefoot.
And we also increase the body weight thanks to dumbbells.
And after, in regards to the home session,

(18:21):
because we have two sessions per week, one was what we call a supervised optimal
session, meaning that it was the optimal things where you can have access to
materials, being a gym, etc.
And the second one was a home session where we just gave to athletes a complex
or electrical stimulators.

(18:44):
And so they've done 15 minutes of a footbridge on two books at home with the
electrical stimulation.
And after so mtp flexion iso
push on the wall so a maximal isometric on
the on the wall so having the mtp in dorsiflex position and just push as hard

(19:08):
as they can so it was basically you know uh these five exercise so yeah the
five exercise you are willing to target only a little bit for shoe, the arch,
and the might foot also, but dedicated to improving the MTP flexor.

(19:29):
So it was really an isolated protocol, you know.
Yes, sorry. It was really a kind of very analytically and isolated protocol on the MTP flexor.
Athletic performance is built on a spectrum of training methods,
from high-velocity skills to power training to strength work.

(19:52):
And on one end of that spectrum, on that strength end, you have the most targeted
work in the form of machines. And this is part of the reason that so many top
speed and strength coaches have their favorite machines to deliver that targeted stimulus.
For decades, Hammer Strength has been a top provider of reliable,
effective machines that are trusted by coaches and athletes worldwide.

(20:14):
They fit seamlessly into that total performance program delivering that targeted
strength stimulus. When it comes
to your machine-based strength training needs, think Hammer Strength.
If you want a path to connect the dots of human performance,
you can join over 1,000 coaches and athletes who have taken a Just Fly Sports online course.

(20:34):
My five-star reviewed courses include the mini-courses Speed ID as well as Sprint Drills Reloaded.
My full-length offerings that are CEU certified include Elastic Essentials and
Sprint Acceleration Essentials.
To learn more, you can head to justflysports.com slash courses and take the
next step to level up your human performance knowledge. Let's get back to the show.

(20:57):
Yeah, I like just how focused all that was just to that forefoot,
just because we talk about, hey, you have to get stronger feet and ankles and all that.
But there's, yeah, it just highlights the different part and the very specific piece of that.
And with the toes as well, I know we'll talk about the outcomes with all the
athletic movements and acceleration and jumping and cutting.

(21:18):
Um I was going to ask you as well was there
is there a way you measure maximal toe strength just because
I've seen a few different ways of measuring that
maximal push I have in my basement
here it's I think his name is tom michaud he um he
invented the toe pro and he has this device that you
have your your foot's on the ground and you

(21:40):
put a little um it's like a little piece of plastic that
goes under the toes and then you have a person clamp their toes
down and you and it measures how much force yeah
yeah so it's that's
which I find that's an illuminating thing um and I don't think it's perfect
but someone who's very weak and someone who's very strong it's very apparent

(22:01):
who's who's strong and weak so that's that you know that's interesting but I
wonder if there's more of a is there more of a gold standard or how how would
you measure that specific four foot strength yeah
That's really a good question because um during my phd defense since the two big applications,
well, three big applications, but number one application of my PhD was how we

(22:25):
can precisely evaluate MTP flexion because we don't have any gold standard so far.
So we don't have an isokinetic, it's what I say, we don't have an isokinetic for the toes.
So we don't have any gold standard. so for me there is two I would say four
big things to understand number one is that,

(22:50):
being able to evaluate the flexion of the two people,
have a shortcut like they say that it's the
intrinsic strength but it's not you can't I would say just evaluate the strength
of the intrinsic it's always MTP flexion is always come from the two groups

(23:11):
so extrinsic two flexor and intrinsic so you can't really you know.
Divided your evaluation into intrinsic and extrinsic.
So I always mention in all my manuscript on my PhD that was the MTP flexion and MTP flexor.
And we know that into these MTP flexors, the extrinsic two flexors are the strongest

(23:36):
because they are the biggest.
It's pretty simple here.
Number two is if you want to evaluate those muscles, you have to understand
that those muscles are pretty sensitive to angle and to dorsiflexion.
So changing the angle of the ankle, so putting your ankle into dorsiflexion

(23:59):
or plantar flexion, change the force-length relationships of the extrinsic to flexor.
So if you want to evaluate precisely, you have to be very aware of the position
of the ankle first and on the MTP for sure.
Because we know that the MTP flexion,

(24:20):
I would say, in terms of the optimal position for force production,
it's where you are between 20 and 35 degrees of MTP dosiflexion.
And when you have the ankle in neutral and some amount of dosiflexion.
So that's why you have two joints to be sensitive.

(24:46):
So that's why when you want really to be very precise between two sessions,
you have to put the same angulation each time because you can have so many different force productions,
not just because you are stronger, but just because you don't push at the same force lengths.

(25:07):
But that's, you know, and I would say the big mistake that I saw with all the
things that we can have on social media and on paper so far into MTP flexion
is that you really have to block.
When I say block, it's really block. You have to stabilize the rear foot

(25:31):
Because actually your brain or your triceps or your calf is share the same neural
drive than your MTP flexor.
So it's really difficult just to push as hard as you can with your toes without
having any activation of the calf.

(25:51):
But the big thing is it can change totally the force production on your thing.
So that's why it's always
amazed me the kind of the position where people just put a dynamometer under
the toes without any stabilization and just force on the toes is that you

(26:15):
have for sure a plantar flexion moment also.
So it's not really a reliable and valid thing.
So that's why blocking the rear foot, it's also very, very important for me.
It's even more the most important thing when it came to forefoot strength.

(26:36):
It's because it's the same nerve drive. So it's the tibia nerve.
So yeah, that's what I would say. So you can't divide it between intrinsic, extrinsic to flexor.
You have to have to be at the same angle and you have to block and stabilize

(26:59):
the rear foot because the calf compensation could be so big.
And even more on weak athletes that will, you know, push a little bit and have
to want to rise their heel because of compensation, etc.
So yeah, that's mainly the three things that I really try to focus on.

(27:24):
Hmm. That's interesting that the calf can compensate and dig in so much with the toe strength.
And I would imagine athletes who have weaker toe flexion values are probably
going to constantly be just trying to get the needed forces from up the chain.
It's funny to see because yeah on

(27:44):
our custom made egrometer so
we we've done so many evaluation
can't remember how many athletes and how
many trials but it's funny to see all
the firing composition that we've seen but the big
one was that that was you know uh even
more not pushing it directly in the rising like not having the connection to

(28:10):
perform the flexion of the toes and directly want to first plantar flex their
calf and after producing flexion of the toes.
So that's why for some even more weak athletes it's pretty we said difficult too.
And that's why also the evaluation that you mentioned just before so where you

(28:36):
have the toes on the ground and you have like the paper grip test it's the same.
So if your
Foot it's on the ground and you
don't have a stabilization of maybe the ankle
on the ground you can also cheat
a little bit the test by you know flexing

(28:58):
your toes but having also the involvement of
the soleus and yeah So that's why I really try to put the foot and ankle on
table or on a brick where I know that I can add a rigid belt or even what we
created in the lab was a snowboard fixation, you know,

(29:21):
on the foot to really strap usually the complexity.
Yeah. I think in the very, um,
maybe more the open chain, less clinical world, just watching an athlete do
a vertical jump is interesting because seeing how high the, or a counter movement

(29:44):
jump, watching how high the heel prefers to get off the ground in kind of that propulsive phase.
Um, it makes sense with what you're talking about with the angle,
like that 20 to 35 degrees. I think you said it was in there.
And that heel lifting basically to create roundabout that angle.
And it makes me wonder an athlete, an athlete with strong toes and good coordination

(30:09):
and body awareness is probably going to get that nice best angle naturally to
leverage whatever strength they have through the forefoot in that terminal phase,
especially people who are more elastic and bouncy and really,
really use their feet versus having more of an engine upstream.
And I feel it too. I say that too because I feel that when I do different plyometric

(30:32):
exercises as well where you kind of put your toes at that angle naturally and
it's like, ooh, there's a lot of spring here. I can feel this repeatedly.
One of the ones I like is called a low squat foot jumper.
You're basically in a half squat and then you're hopping up and down without
changing the half squat position and your heels are always off the ground. That's the big one.

(30:53):
And when that it's almost like you're always feeling that angle,
I'm making an angle for people who are just listening.
So that's why I think I just kind of feel that happening.
But I think a lot of athletes would either just mush through it a little bit,
like the heels will come down.
Or maybe like you said, maybe they get a lot of it out of the calf and their
toes are actually they're just the toes are maybe just hanging on for dear life

(31:16):
at the bottom. Yeah, that's right.
That could be also a lose of anteriorization of the center pressure of the force application.
And so the heel drop of the ground also because they are much more posteriorly
when they contract the ground.

(31:38):
So not having confidence with the toes. And what you mentioned, it's pretty right,
meaning that dorsiflexion for the MTP or range of motion of dorsiflexion, it's so important.
And that's why when you have, you know, like hallux valgus, hallux rigidus,

(32:00):
turf toes injury, where you can have an impairment of the motion of the toes,
you change the force lengths into less optimal things.
And that's also create this kind of inhibition and atrophy that we can have

(32:21):
in relation to dose pathology, where we know that an abductor hallucis,
for example, or the flexor hallucis longus, has really, you know,
have this ability to produce when your MTP start to dorsiflex into dose range.

(32:42):
And when you are fixed hallux or rigid hallux that can dorsiflex,
that impair their ability to have a production on force.
So that's a big thing. So mobility of the forefoot will dictate,
I will say, your ability to produce force.

(33:03):
That's the same for the dorsiflexion of the tibia, for example,
where we know that it's allow you to also perform optimally or not.
Yeah, it's that, I've thought about that a lot more in the last years,

(33:25):
recent years, is your ability to produce force being your ability to mobilize
and open the space prior.
But it's interesting, something like the forefoot, I think we would look at that.
It's a lot harder to think about mobility in the forefoot than something that's
big and obvious, like hip mobility.
If you have bad hip or hamstring mobility, it's pretty obvious.

(33:47):
What does good forefoot mobility look like? I think that's the beauty,
Yeah. I think in forced-length relationship, which is the foundation of all
every, you know, human anatomy knowledge was, you know,
force-speed curve, forced-length relationship.
And enforced lengths, we forget lengths, and lengths is dependent on range of motion.

(34:13):
So that's why having also not just mobility,
but having MTP joint mobility is also a parameter that for sure will dictate
your physical output here.
Is that just so, is that when you're talking MTP mobility or that forefoot,

(34:37):
is that toe, like the toes flexing, like your ability to put your foot on like
a slanted board and really lean forward into it and have the toes flex?
Is it something within the forefoot itself? Like if I, I'm using my hands a
lot, this is audio, but like if I had a foot,
like, and I'm manipulating the forefoot and the bones, like something,
like anything in relation to the structure inside the foot itself,

(35:01):
or is it mostly the toes and just the number, the flexion range that you're looking at?
Yeah, for sure. I would say if you have passive range,
if you have big passive range of motion, that doesn't mean that you will have
the same amount of active range so that you can have the dorsiflexion here.

(35:26):
But the first thing is, yeah, I would say, oh, you can improve this is, could be.
The third thing could be manual therapy or working on manipulating or mobilization
of the two to include things.
What I like also, it's a kind of chronic stretch or stretch where you dorsiflex the MTP,

(35:54):
I would say to the max amplitude that you have and you keep this position or this position here.
I like to do both, so dorsiflexion of the toes and dorsiflexion of the tibia.
So that will work a lot on flexor hallucis longus and digitorium longus flexibility so the tendons.

(36:21):
So yeah, you can, I would say, improve the articular or arthrokinematic thanks
to manual therapy, for example, and mobilizations.
And much more on the muscle tendon unit because it's all about the tendon of
the flexor that allow you also to have this range here.

(36:43):
And after for sure, it's to be sure that he has actively the ability to flex
and extend it within this, I would say,
range because you can have the passive range of motion but not the active range. Yeah.
So let's dig into the results of the research. So then we started,

(37:06):
I asked you about it and we were, we, I, I led on a few rabbit trails.
Let's dig into, cause that premise is so good. Like four foot strength.
We talked about the MP and MTP joint and some of the dynamics there.
So let's get into the strengthening of that joint. You talked about the exercises.
Uh, what impact did that have on, as you mentioned, sprinting, cutting and jumping?

(37:31):
Yeah.
So if we go back to the protocol, so eight weeks, two sessions per week.
So the first thing that we wanted to understand is, did we change MTP flexion strength?
So what we found is that we basically improved the MTP flexion on the dominant

(37:59):
foot and non-dominant foot by approximately 28%,
which was pretty,
very, very important because it was really highlevel or highly trained athletes.
So 28% of
improvement it's pretty impressive and

(38:23):
what we try to do it's not just a basic
statistical analysis and group average we try also to evaluating the rate of
responders so being a responder it's to know that your improvement is below your.

(38:46):
Minimal detectable change that we evaluate during your control period.
So everyone has his own variations of the time and so to be sure that your improvement
or your increment is I would say clinically.
Or can be sure we evaluate this to for every athlete here and around all protocol we have, yeah.

(39:17):
92% of rate of responder.
So basically every athlete improves their main TP flexion strength above the
NDC, even more the stronger one.
So we basically believe that at the beginning of the protocol,

(39:39):
even the guys that already have stronger toes or a really big MTP flexion strength
have an improvement that is still, you know,
valid or relevant clinically.
We also have an hypertrophy of those muscles. So we evaluate the cross-sectional

(40:06):
area of one intrinsic foot muscle alone and the flexor directoring lungus.
And we found also a 10% of hypertrophy after the eight weeks.
So we have a kind of neural and structural effects. So our first,

(40:28):
The result was to say that those muscles, so the MTP flexor,
can be trained, I would say,
heavily like any muscle and then can improve their strength from a neural aspect
and structural aspect and you can make the foot muscle bigger.

(40:52):
So that was the first thing. And the second thing was, does it change or did it change the kinetics?
And what we found is that around all the explosive tasks that we evaluate,
we found that for the cuttings, so the change of direction,

(41:17):
we have biggest rate of responder into the cutting time.
So it was the overall performance, and we can't correlate this improvement by
having our responder with a bigger medial lateral ratio of force.

(41:39):
So what we found is that they have the same amount of force after the protocol,
but the ratio of force, the transmission to the ground was really different.
And so in terms of cutting, so people in the training group was able to produce

(42:01):
more, I would say, force into the medial lateral direction.
So better, I would say, not force production, the force transmission to the
ground, so into the direction here.
And we wanted, or it was, it could be really explained by the fact that.

(42:23):
The strike that they used during the night during our explosive task was a forefoot strike.
So if we look at their ultimate foot contact when they turn at 90 degrees for
all of our athletes was a forefoot strike.
So for cutting which we found this, we also found things during a broad jump

(42:50):
or horizontal jumping, so it was a counter-movement jump horizontally.
And we found also an increase of horizontal force production to the ground,
so increase of horizontal concentric inputs and ratio of force.
And we can also explain this because

(43:10):
what changed between a vertical
jump and a horizontal jump is that
during the horizontal jump you have an
increased dorsiflexion moment so you have much
more bending moment at the toes because you
have a forward link of the body so
you have a center of mass that is moving

(43:32):
much more anteriorly and our explanation around this improvement was that after
our protocol and also because one of the exercise of our protocol was to have
a heavy load forwarding or to forwarding you know,
push with your tools and forwarding with your body. What we.

(43:54):
Explain to those results is that after the
protocol we're much more able you know
to I would say forward lean a bit
more with your trunk and your body and to have a much
more optimal angulation for your
jump um here and um
the last things that we found but on small

(44:17):
amount of athletes also because not every athlete
did the really big maxima sprint because
for some sport it was not so for
example a handball or basketball athlete
was not relevant to do a 30
meter sprint so it was just rugby soccer and

(44:39):
track and field athletes so on the training
group into maximal speed so
it was maximal or kinetic during maximal speed we found that we increased the
vertical or the effective vertical inputs so producing much more vertical force to the ground which.

(45:07):
Are one of the key things when it came to, I will say,
be performant during maximal speed is your ability, you know,
also to have vertical springness to the ground and vertical force production
to order you to have flight time and etc.

(45:28):
So we know that the vertical vector increase or your performance of your sprint is,
important when it came to maximal speed and when it came to the vertical force production.
So that's the three big things.

(45:51):
That we, I will say, found. And we didn't find any, you know,
explanation around what we had some responder,
what this guy wasn't a responder, because basically for the most thing,

(46:13):
it was not correlated with some demographics on some sport.
So it was not because of the sport or because of the training volume or even
more because of the MTP flexion strength at the beginning.
So what we found sometimes is that you have the same amount of increment of

(46:39):
your MTP flexion and the same amount of improvement in your kinetics for some
responders but not for some.
So it was very individual things and actually we can't really explain why I
would say you are this particular responder or not.

(47:01):
So I think that one of the three big explanations for me is that having a stronger
forefoot allows you maybe three big things.
Number one is to produce much more mechanical work within the forefoot region.

(47:21):
So it's what I call having a greater forefoot producer.
Or having a stronger forefoot allow you to store and release much more mechanical
energy thanks to your MTP flexor.
So we know they have long tendons and we know that they can also,

(47:43):
you know, having this, I would say, stretch and shortening cycle action.
So it was improving the forefoot spring or the stretch and shortening cycle
from the MTP flexor tunnel units.
And number three, it's that having a stronger forefoot, a lower U-calf,

(48:10):
to have a much better forefoot transmitter or have a stable foundation.
And we know that having a stronger forefoot can, you know,
put your sump force of application in much more entirely to the ground,
and so it's increased the anchor gear ratio.

(48:33):
So that's the three maybe biomechanical explanations around our results.
It's a fore-foot producer, fore-foot transmitter, or fore-foot recycler, or fore-foot spring.
And so I think that the new area or the new knowledge or the new study or the further study,

(48:57):
it's really to maybe use the same protocol,
but really to perform a 3D biomechanical evaluation on all the joints on the
foot to understand what you change from a really kinetic perspective,

(49:22):
meaning your ankle joint work or ankle joint power,
your forefoot joint work or forefoot power,
to understand really what will change precisely inside the foot after this protocol
because our evaluation or our study,

(49:42):
it's not global but an overall aspect of force production.
So, ground reaction force, you don't know when you increase your ground reaction
force, you don't know where it's come from.

(50:04):
For us, it was maybe from the calf, from the forefoot on my foot,
but maybe you increase something else, I don't know, the knee or maybe the hip.
So, the hip has better, you know, joint to transmit its force.
So that for me will be the new area of understanding around this now.

(50:34):
Yeah. A few things I took from you,
Romain, as you were talking and explaining the cuts and the broad jump,
especially, is it made me think about giving athletes more options.
So if you have a stronger forefoot and toes that you may have options to different

(50:57):
angles of motion you wouldn't have before like you mentioned that broad jump
like you could lean forward more was that correct?
Like if you had stronger toes you could actually get a more forward lean but
that to me that would strike me as not just being great for a broad jump test
which is more just a combine thing in many cases or the 1900 Olympics when it

(51:18):
was an actual event in track
But it's, there's so many cuts and, or cuts too, but like acceleration situations,
little leaps forward, all sorts of motions in sport where you have to really fall forward more.
And if you have a stronger, more functional forefoot, you could get into positions
that maybe you couldn't if you didn't have that.

(51:40):
So I think that, and even the cutting I was thinking about, you mentioned with
the forefoot, like the moment of change of direction, and of course the improved rate of force ratio.
But it makes me think as well, in cutting, what if those toes strength gives
you access to a better foot position in that turn that you wouldn't have otherwise

(52:03):
had the potential access to?
And it gives you more options. And so, yeah, I think that's,
to me, that's kind of what I was getting out of it as you were talking is because, like you said,
Way back in this show, you could also get strength from the calf to do the job.
But the forefoot almost like that's what gives you the options to be more precise

(52:26):
with what's actually happening on the ground. And that's probably part of the
reason why, like you said, it is so individual because there's a lot of different
ways to solve athletic problems.
Yeah, I think you...
That's brilliant, yeah, this kind of individual option that you can use.
That's a new option, or that's a new skill that you have.

(52:51):
And to come back to the cutting, what we know, and it could be related to, for example.
Ankle sprain or chronic ankle instability, where we know that during a cutting moment,
movement we know that the forefoot it's biomechanically

(53:13):
linked with the rear foot meaning that we know particularly
thanks to now a really precise
biomechanical study that the flexion
of your hallux so the ability of your hallux to flex on the ground is correlated
related to your inversion of your rear foot that just means that if I push on

(53:36):
the ground with my forefoot and my hallux stay on the ground,
that will reduce the ability of my rear foot to invert.
So that's mean, and that could be also related to injury of mechanism during
lateral ankle sprain, where you have a forefoot strike and your hallux, you know,

(53:57):
totally deviated and I would say doesn't escape the ground after you have an
inversion moment that is traumatic.
So I always now think when it came, you know, for example, to ankle or rear
foot stability is that, yeah,

(54:19):
when it came to forefoot strike actions, your ability really to your MTP to
stay on the ground will offer you, as you mentioned.
Also stability to put more force on the ground.
That, I would say, before the protocol could lead to traumatic things.

(54:43):
It was funny to see in some athletes that had some incur injury to see that
they were much more comfortable to put much more medial lateral force on the
ground on a forefoot strike,

(55:03):
than before maybe because of fear or maybe because they know that if you put
too much force mediolaterally maybe you will have a traumatic thing so that's also,
all the sling that we can maybe create between your forefoot and your rear foot

(55:26):
and also as you mentioned maybe your car, that is your big motor, but yeah.
Yeah. I like, um, I think we talked about this exercise last time you were on,
and I know you've posted videos on this kind of thing with, um,
like if the feet are on a slant board and you're lifting the heel up,

(55:48):
the toes are staying pressed against that board. So they're being flexed under load.
Um, one of the, one of my favorite exercises is doing like single leg hinge
type motions with that front foot or the main foot on that reverse slant board
just to get those toes to have to lengthen under load.

(56:10):
And it's interesting, I hadn't put that together with the ankle sprain,
where if you can really get the toes on the ground as a function of time,
it gives you more time on the ground and you are more firmly rooted on the ground through the forefoot,
then you don't have to just, you're less likely to, yeah, have that inversion

(56:32):
ankle sprain where you roll to the outside.
I hadn't, so then that's what you're linking, right? Where if you have more
flexion through the toes, you can really get into those positions,
you're going to be less likely to turn the ankle over on the other side.
Yeah, your first ray flexion related to your inversion of your rear foot.

(56:55):
That means that if your first ray stay on the ground, you will have less inversion of your rear foot.
So that's a neuromuscular and biomechanical link between those two regions and those two movements.
So flexion for the first ray and inversion for the rear foot.

(57:17):
So that makes sense, really.
So yeah, if you first race stay on the ground, you will reduce your inversion
moment of your ankle that will maybe turn into a traumatic event.
So that's why also, as you mentioned, a board or inking plate that you'll,

(57:40):
you know, work on 3d kind
of exercise when you have frontal and sagittal
different movement it's it's powerful
and it's really important also when it came to foot ankle you know robustness
and and training where you have to focus on on the 3d because the your foot

(58:03):
is deformed in the the force that encounter with the gram in 3D is pretty big,
it's not just sagittal it's not just pronation it's not just supination,
etc it's about many, many things also, yeah,
yeah.
Yeah. Um, I want to talk a little bit about, um, four foot, very fore foot specific strength.

(58:30):
Like, as you mentioned, three exercises, I had them written down there,
the, the toe flexion or the MTP flexion, the big toe training and that incline
pogo, which I was going to say to you that incline pogo, that's,
I've seen that a lot in the, um,
I guess you could call it the Marinovich style training system here in the States.
It's like guys on a super cat, like a jump machine, and they would incline the board.

(58:52):
So you're literally just hopping on this machine with like a repeat,
like fore foot no flexion type thing.
And I've talked to coaches who think that's a great thing.
I've also talked to coaches who don't like it because they think it's maybe
too much stress on the Achilles or something like that.
Uh, which I think if you're not used to it, it could be.
Um, but I, I, when you said that, I was like, Oh yeah, I, I've seen a lot of

(59:16):
that in that kind of training situation.
And the Marinovich and then Sports Science Lab is an offshoot of that that also does a lot of that.
And they get athletes a lot of times there who do a lot more of the traditional
weightlifting background, and then they'll start training the foot in that in
all sorts of different ways. And they do increase their jumping and athleticism

(59:37):
and injury prevention a lot. That's the thing out of that system.
It's injury prevention is a big one.
Um, anyways, all this to say, um, where I was headed and I don't want to trip
myself up in my own thought patterns, but, uh, forefoot training,
so more toe specific versus not that it is always a versus,
but versus like just calf raises or, uh, isometric ankle, like a,

(01:00:01):
like a max iso push or, um,
like a spring ankle where you're, you're just doing the, the isometric and focusing
more on the ankle joint than the toes.
Is there benefits or what would the main benefits to toe training versus more
of that global foot ankle training be?
What situations would you like to do more of one than the other, essentially?

(01:00:28):
You need to do more of one than the other, I should say.
Yeah, that's a good question. If we just look at the link between your calf
and your forefoot, so I told you that they share the same nerve drive,
so it's the tibial nerve.

(01:00:48):
So that just means that your MTP flexion or your MTP joint is really related to your calf.
And so that's why I always say that you can be strong on one,
so MTP flexion, but weak on your calf.

(01:01:09):
You can be strong on both, etc.
So I like to use both kind of exercise, meaning that you can really...
Focus on the calf without trying to targeting the MTP flexion.
So for example, it could be a paraphrase where you have your toes outside the ground.

(01:01:38):
So that would be an exercise where you want to, in your heel rises exercise
or your calf raise moment, you really want to increase the contribution just come from your calf.
But on the other side, if you do a calf raise in an incline plate or incline surface,

(01:01:59):
so where you have really a dorsiflexion of your MTP and you do a calf raise,
You know that in this exercise.
You increase the MTP joint moment and the mindful joint moment,
so you can really target in most, I would say, increase the contribution on the MTP flexion.

(01:02:21):
So I like to, I would say, try to evaluate analytically the calf and the MTP to understand,
do I have to just focus on the calf itself?
And I know that he has a standard or a stronger forefoot or a good strong forefoot.

(01:02:48):
So maybe I would say performing calf or calf exercise will be relevant for this athlete.
Sometimes he's weak on the two regions and I have to find exercise where you

(01:03:08):
can isolate those things or work them together.
So this exercise in calf raise with endosiflexion of the MDP, it's pretty relevant.
Or sometimes it's really just the forefoot that is weak, as I told you.
And that's, you really make sense to totally get to the forefootexercise here.

(01:03:36):
Also, I think because maybe you have some synergy between these stats,
what we found in the PhD is that all of our exercise didn't lead to calf strength improvement.
So even doing some pogo during eight weeks or doing some mid foot bridge or

(01:04:02):
MTP flexion on the wall and etc.
Even this where we know that the calf was
activated during our exercise because as I told you it's pretty difficult to
walk on the forefoot without you know having no activation at all so even those
exercises didn't lead to calf improvement so that's just say to me that.

(01:04:28):
You can't that doesn't mean
by because you walk on the toes that your
calf will improve and etc I think that you really
have to maybe have
some kind of goals during your session when you say
I'm much more into the calf here and
or I'm much more into the forefoot or I'm much more

(01:04:50):
into both or I will try to have both this but I would say I don't I don't know
what is the best between these options
or just the calf guys or just the forefoot guys because at the end,
what basically we know is that you can be strong on one region but lose some

(01:05:18):
of this energy within the other one.
We know that the big motor within the foot anchor,
it's really the triceps but that doesn't mean but because you are a big calf
also that you will have a good ankle gear ratio so I like the idea to say that

(01:05:40):
the ankle gear ratio so your ability of your calves to have a good labor.
It's also really improvement but if I know that it's weak on the calf I would say that,
Even to think about the labor, just to build your account first and after we

(01:06:03):
will work to improve also your labor or your leverage, foot leverage.
Yeah, that's... I would say my exercise selection always tried to come from
assessment and evaluation.

(01:06:24):
Sometimes about what is the feeling of my athletes during the exercise because
sometimes it's funny to believe that he will feel this muscle during,
for example, a calf exercise, but he will tell you that he feels his arch.

(01:06:45):
Or you give a kind of forefoot and arch exercise and he will tell you that he feels his calf.
And so that's always what I
mentioned your ability to change the
exercise or have different variety of things to targeting the right muscles

(01:07:06):
so it's always that's why just the basic question where do you feel the muscle
tension or the tension is one of the,
most important questions when it came to coaching you know.
Yeah for sure I I find I always

(01:07:27):
want athletes to be able to why I
should say this I always want to find an exercise that
lets an athlete feel it in their arch especially somebody
has really weak toes that to me is always uh of course I want them to feel in
their calf as well but to me it seems like that uh more athletes well tell me
what you think about this Romain is do you feel and more athletes would have

(01:07:51):
a weak foot intrinsic versus those who have weak just calves.
Is that true? Or is it kind of, you know, there's some people with strong feet and weak.
But like you said, you can't get the intrinsic, the feet, without getting the
calf too. So I would imagine there's more people with weak feet than calf structures.
Yeah, that's a really good question because that's one of the,

(01:08:16):
I would say most questions that people ask me is, Romain, do you have any exercise
where you can have a feeling under the arch because all of my exercise you know, doesn't,
give this feeling to my athletes and so I will say that,

(01:08:39):
Most of the athletes sometimes doesn't feel the burn under the arch,
but maybe it's because it's much more easy to feel burn into all the lower limb muscles.
So if you want to feel burn around quadriceps, you have maybe much more exercise or even more,

(01:09:04):
I would say, basic stuff to feel your quadriceps or even your calf or your hips
or your back or your abdominals,
any muscles.
So maybe that's why that having or they believe that they will have the same
feeling under the arch. Maybe that's the first thing.
I would say one of the big things around arch feeling, it's, yeah.

(01:09:32):
Try really to, that's why, sorry, to the electrical stimulation under the arch, it's so intensive,
meaning that all of my students that work with me on the PhD,
so they just did one session to fill, I would say, the protocol.

(01:09:58):
They performed just one session and just one of the exercises with the electrical stimulation.
And just after one session, during all the week, they have some doms under
the arch and for them it was the first time.
So just 10 minutes of electrical stimulation under the arch at max intensity,

(01:10:20):
you will have a kind of titanic contraction that you never had before and that
could be brutal and that for them being the first time that, oh, okay,
now I understand what it is to feel you know the arch burning so electrical

(01:10:40):
stimulation helps to feel things for me but also to use electrical stimulation
in certain position on all the muscle that you want that your athlete feels.
And footbridge, I think footbridge, when you load your body and you do a forward

(01:11:01):
lean, footbridge is also a good exercise to feel it.
And I think that the better one is being in a footbridge position,
but having the toes in dorsiflex position.
So that's maybe the biggest of the exercise where you will have much more,

(01:11:30):
also some kind of, around the plantar fascia also around the plantar fascia some you know.
Strain like a strain effect and you will feel also or feeling around the arch.
So footbridge, but not having the toes on the ground, but having all the toes

(01:11:56):
in dorsiflex position and having the unloading position of the midfoot,
it's one of my great or best exercise as well,
I really want athletes to feel the arch or to really activate all the foot muscles,

(01:12:19):
intrinsic foot muscles and MTP flexor, yeah.
Yeah. Um, I want to finish up with talking about, well, something you said about,
um, like if you, again, if you get the toes and forefoot, you're going to get the calf too.
And it reminds me of something, uh, Rafe Kelly, um, is, is very much a coach

(01:12:42):
into play, uh, movement training.
And he, one of, uh, quote that he said a long time ago is always tried to train
at the highest level of complexity that's available. And to me,
it would seem that if I could train something that's a little more complex,
like think of it like a tree, like you got the root, the trunk, and then the branches.
And as you get out from the trunk, it gets more complex.
And I think of the body that way a little bit, like the training,

(01:13:05):
the forefoot, like you just said, getting the burn in the forefoot,
the branches is harder than the trunk, the quad.
That's very, pretty much, you know, do enough squats and ride a bike or whatever.
You're going to get that.
But it's a little more complex.
It should you know hopefully as simple as possible but
complex to get feeling in the the

(01:13:25):
branches but if you can train that and
get the knock-on effect or the effect all the way down the
body it would make sense to focus most of
your efforts there for the sake of efficiency or essentialism like if I could
only do two lower leg exercises and with my training group it would make sense
to probably do things that would focus on that MTP flexion versus maybe just

(01:13:49):
doing calf raises and tibialis raises or something.
I mean, not that those are bad exercises, but then I was also thinking about just in having options.
Like if the toes are strong, you have more options, it's probably going to help
you with injury prevention versus if I just wanted performance outcomes,
like just vertical jump, max vertical jump height or something,
maybe it's fine to just then do calf raises.

(01:14:12):
But it would just make sense that if I want to have an essentialist view that
to do the thing that gets everything else anyways, which is toe strength or
toe based, toe based strength.
And like you said, that nerve innervates both, which I think is really fascinating.
So if you, I'll ask you this, that was a little bit of me rambling my own thoughts

(01:14:34):
off, apologize, but let me ask you this to close is, is rehab versus a healthy
team that let's just say they don't have any issues.
So you're rehabbing someone versus it's the strength coach and I'm giving some
general exercises to a team.
What are your thoughts on that athletic performance coach just giving general
exercises for the foot and calf and without like a specific injury or a specific

(01:14:58):
pattern that you're chasing?
Do you have any thoughts with that when it's more of a general performance and
injury prevention setup?
Well, I would say that the big thing around, you know,
kind of want to improve your foot ankle care or foot ankle athletic development

(01:15:23):
is that the foot ankle is pretty so complex.
And also you have maybe so many muscles that you can target.
So if I if we talk about the knee you know
you can say okay we will do quadriceps oriented
exercise hamstring oriented exercise but for

(01:15:46):
the foot and ankle that you can have so many options so that's why when I talk
with teams and etc I say and when it came to athletic development I said that
the basic biomechanical function of the ankle is a kind of three-phasic action.

(01:16:06):
So the first thing is you have absorber foot ankle muscle where you have much
more eccentric and isometric actions after you have the propulsion action where
you have propulsing muscles.
That have a greatest role in run that here.

(01:16:30):
And if we talk about also the foot and ankle, particularly is especially is
that they are built for spring.
So if you look at the anatomy of the foot and ankle muscles,
any, so intrinsic, extrinsic, and the calf.

(01:16:51):
Is that they are built for springness, meaning that they have a short fiber
length, muscle fiber length, and always long-tenden to store and release mechanical energy.
So that's why I say to them that if you want to improve the athletic thing,

(01:17:11):
around the foot and ankle, you have
to find exercise where it's
much more absorbing oriented exercise and
on absorbing oriented exercise you are you can
have an isolated and analytical
approach so you just focus on

(01:17:33):
the muscle that are the biggest role in the absorption within the foot ankle
complex or you can have what I can call a coupling approach where you take the
foot and ankle complex as a whole and you work on absorbing exercise.
So for example, it could be a mid foot landing exercise, for example.

(01:18:00):
The same for the propulsing-oriented exercise and the same for the spring-oriented exercise.
And for me, that's the best or the order ofthing to improve the athletic development.
What it changed between the athletic development into a team and me as a rehab

(01:18:23):
coach is that when I rehab someone, is that I have just one guy.
I have the time maybe to evaluate those three
aspects and to say okay with this
guy it's much more into improving this because this is because of that that
this is injury came or he injured this muscle so his absorption will be impaired

(01:18:48):
or is already impaired and we will improve this and etc.
The big thing when it came to teams and athletic development is that you can't
perform this holistic evaluation that I created thanks to my PhD.

(01:19:09):
But maybe I have this focusing on, okay, maybe we do a misocycle of just absorbing
or foot anchor oriented exercise.
For example I don't know during two months
uh that doesn't mean
that during two months you you will have many

(01:19:31):
many sessions because I really believe that foot
ankle muscle have a super
power to improve very quickly and even
more that other muscle for
just the reason that we
already talk about is that the it's

(01:19:52):
it's less conditioning or it's it's it's really less conditioning
because it it it was or it's usually
never really work uh in how
you know uh um athlete careers um yeah and so that's why I always say to them
when I talk about absorption propulsion spring I said That doesn't mean that

(01:20:15):
you have to have a protocol with, you know,
putting six hour weeks working just a full angle.
That means that you focus on this during two years three months,
for example, with specific exercise here.
And you will see that this is the kind of region that can improve very quickly and rapidly.

(01:20:37):
And that's what we found in our PhD in MTP flexion is that we already could
have stopped our protocol at five weeks, for example.
So we did eight weeks. But what we found is that at six weeks, week six...

(01:20:57):
The improvement was at the highest and after it doesn't change from six to eight
and it doesn't change for eight to day training periods.
So I think you can improve very quickly and rapidly if you put the right things.
And I really believe that after, even if you stop, you know.

(01:21:21):
It's always funny to when
I talk with some physio or
SNC that they are afraid of losing the
strength that they have gained like meaning that
I give you 20% of quadriceps strength and they believe that after 2 weeks it

(01:21:43):
will disappear you know if you stop the protocol but actually if you play your
sport actively and you engage in your sport, the strength that,
you earned after the protocol, basically it will stay a bit the same.
It will disappear here. It will maybe disappear or decrease after an injury

(01:22:08):
or after an immobilization or after a lockdown period, for example,
where you reduce your activity.
But that's why If you go back, yeah, focusing on the triphasic action of the
ankle, using exercise on mesocycle and microcycle with this.

(01:22:30):
And you can do a full season foot ankle program with absorption,
propulsion, and spring.
Or you can say, okay, we will work on those three aspects during our week.
Also that after a selection that it's up to you teams and you context but yeah that's always my.

(01:22:58):
Brainstorming and I will say idea for for teams that I work with or consult with.
It's like the branches on the tree, those small branches on the end can get
up to speed or needed level pretty quick. I think about rock climbing.

(01:23:21):
I rock climb in the winter and the first week my fingers are just so, so weak.
But by week two or three in, they're getting pretty close to how,
I mean, they're not as strong as they are after three months,
but the curve of improvement is very rapid.
That first week on the wall is always terrible. It's always terrible.

(01:23:42):
That's funny, the difference between end muscle for rock climbing,
where we want our end muscle to be strong.
And on the other side, and so the end muscle are dedicated to find precision

(01:24:02):
and coordination, but they are not really built for force production.
But when you do rock climbing, you want to have, yes, the precision of the finger,
but, you know, a strong also and muscles to be able to grasp things.
And the other side, I really see that your foot muscles are dedicated when you

(01:24:26):
see their mechanical property to force production,
but people want them to be able to grasp or to do some sometimes very complex
coordination things and etc.
And so the very dichotomy between end muscle for rock climbing where we want

(01:24:48):
to be strong, where we have to be strong.
And for me, it should be the same for the foot muscle.
It should be strong because they are built for that here.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Um, yeah, I could go on about, I was just thinking about

(01:25:08):
how the rock, um, you know, the people who rock climb for life and how strong
their fingers and tendons are.
Like if you are a rock climber, what does, what, uh, distinguishes the highest
level rock climbers is finger strength to body weight.
Like not even, not even grip. It's almost like pull-ups and then grip and then fingers.
And it's the fingers that's the elite, but that's like a lifetime of just being

(01:25:30):
on the wall and slow, slow build.
Um, and that, that makes me think about too, what you were talking about earlier
about the force storage through the forefoot and volume over time and those types of things.
And, but relative, like just, Hey, general workable forefoot intrinsic strength
that is going to help us get into better positions.

(01:25:50):
Um, you know, that, that not needing as much time to shore up,
which I think is important.
I also was thinking too, if you have it then you can go play your sport and
you're using it like you're every time you cut
You're using that improved eats that
you got and I think we're always very hung up on oh like this has got to be
in the program forever keep adding more keep adding more well what if I can

(01:26:13):
just do the essential to maintain what I have and isn't that the goal really
because we want to be able to play and you put our investment in what moves
the needle for our actual sports.
So, um, yeah, I'm fascinating stuff, Romain.
Um, wait, I think I've, I've actually run out of time here and I got,
shoot, I have like a whole, uh, page of notes crammed down and a page,

(01:26:37):
a half page of questions I didn't get to ask you, but I will save them for next time.
Uh, and just this, I love this topic. Uh, you're doing such great work and it's
really cool to hear about your PhD. Awesome.
Uh, Whenever the next research projects come out as well, my ears will be tuned
for when those are out. So thank you so much for your time today.
Thank you, Joel. Always a pleasure. And yeah, I think we answered three or four

(01:27:03):
questions on the 10 or 12 questions that we put on the paper.
But yeah, that's why I can't come back to a post for you.
Sounds good.