March 13, 2022 • 48 mins
Legendary basketball Coach Tom Penders joins us to discuss the financial cost and mental stress of defending your reputation against unscrupulous fame-seeking wanna-be lawyers.
Thomas Vincent Penders (born May 23, 1945) is an American retired college basketball coach, who last coached from 2004 through 2010 at the University of Houston. He is from Stratford, Connecticut[1] and has a 649–437 career record. As a college athlete, Penders played both basketball and baseball for the University of Connecticut and is one of the few players to have competed in both the NCAA Tournament as well as the College World Series.
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Episode Transcript
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Music intro:
Sat down. (00:08):
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All by myself.
Just like you to
Bret Adams: Welcome to lawyers are assholes. (00:15):
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I'm your host, Brad Adams, a lawyer, I should say a
recovering lawyer who found a platform to address a broken
legal system. This is where we call out incompetent and
unscrupulous lawyers, prosecutors and judges.
Anyone that touches the legal system.
We're coming after you.
If you're an asshole, my guest today is Tom Penders.
If you're a sports fan, you'll know who Tom Penders is.
(00:37):
Tom Penders is one of the winningest NCAA basketball
coaches in the history of the game.
Long stints coach in at Texas Houston.
Very, very successful collegiate coach.
A really good friend of mine, and you're going to hear the
stories one of the greatest nights of my life when I met
Tom Penders and just give you a hint.
(00:59):
It involves the L.A.
Clippers owner Donald Sterling.
Bob Huggins, Jerry Tarkanian and a couple of models.
And we're going to get into that a little bit.
But Tom is on here because Tom has has been through the
civil litigation grinder, and we're going to talk about the
trials and tribulations of of defending two cases, both
(01:22):
which he won by jury verdicts.
But the expense the inability for most people to actually
represent themselves because of the cost in civil
litigation items, a different animal because he's done very
well financially and had the ability to to pay these
defense costs. But we're going to go through his horrendous
(01:43):
history and involvement with the legal system.
So before we bring Tommy, we're going to talk about the
asshole of the week, and I normally I do a couple of these,
but this asshole today deserves an entire section.
Actually, the entire show could be about specific assholes
of the week across the country.
But but this one takes the case and it's a little bit
(02:04):
personal to me. But in Columbus, Ohio, we had a little bit
of public corruption cases over the past couple of years,
and we had a fella in full disclosure.
He's a really good friend of mine named John Rafael.
So John was charged and convicted a few years ago for
extorting some political contributions, paid his dues,
(02:27):
serve 16 months in a federal penitentiary, and life went
on. John came back out, tried to get his life back together
and frankly did have his life back together.
Except they came back the the feds came back after him for
another charge.
It should have been frankly charged at the same time the
(02:49):
original case was.
But to make a long story short, and here's why this fella
Peter Glenn Applegate now why this guy has a hyphenated
name, I don't know, but he's an assistant federal
prosecutor in the assistant district here in Columbus,
Ohio. So John Rafael is charged again, works out of plea
agreement and goes to get sentenced.
(03:11):
And the federal judge here in the 6th District, Watson,
says to the prosecutor and to John verbatim transcript
you've been to prison, Watson told Rafael at the hearing.
You've come out of prison, you lost your mother, you lost
your brother, you lost your business, you lost your
reputation. Now, apparently, for Mr.
(03:33):
Glenn Applegate, this wasn't a satisfactory way of dealing
with Mr.
Rafael's sentence because Mr.
Watson gave him 18 months of home confinement, 18 months and
another conviction.
All right. So now what happens at this point is that this
Mr. Glenn Applegate files a forty nine page appeal of the
(03:55):
sentence, OK, which which he basically has zero chance.
I mean, discretion is discretionary.
But here's the issue.
You've got a guy Johns, almost 67 years old, twice
convicted felon.
The judge gave him a break with home confinement.
He's already spent 18 months in prison.
He is in horrendous health, almost 67 years old.
(04:18):
What is the purpose of putting this guy at our tax dollars
back in the pokey?
Sam SHYMANSKY, a well-renowned, I should say, criminal
defense lawyer, a buddy of mine who practices here in this
jurisdiction, said at best, such a move to appeal the
sentence is not even allowed in state court, says Sam.
But just because you have the right to appeal doesn't make
(04:40):
it appropriate. What you have here is a bunch of crybaby
because the judge has the courage to do what is
appropriate. I can't agree with Sam anymore.
Now, I don't know if this guy is an assistant prosecutor.
I don't know if he was forced to do it by Kenneth Parker,
the newly appointed U.S.
(05:00):
attorney. But it really is outrageous.
I mean, and I reached out to the guy who invited him on the
podcast. Of course, they're not going to respond.
They're not going to. Come on, and he he refused in an
email to do it. First, I had to chase down their emails
because apparently they're so important that you can't get
an email of a assistant U.S.
(05:21):
attorney, which is outrageous.
So what I do, I went out and I did a public records
request. I'm going to get all their emails.
They're just not that damn important to to not allow the
public to be able to communicate with them.
But anyway, this guy is absolutely the asshole of the week.
I can't wait till he's embarrassed with this Court of
Appeals decision that comes back.
(05:43):
And then we can find out.
I'd really like to know.
Actually, I'd really like to know what motivates this guy.
Said this to him in an email.
I said, what would motivate you to to to sit in your office
and write a 49 page appeal brief, trying to trying to send
this guy back to prison?
I mean, what are you thinking?
(06:03):
What goes through your thought process to do this to
another human being?
I just don't get it.
Mr. Glenn Applegate, hyphenated name You are the asshole of
the week. Welcome, welcome, Tom Penders to lawyers are
assholes now I got I got it.
We got to tell the listeners to coach before we get into
(06:24):
this thing, how how you and I met one of the most memorable
evenings of my my life involving Donald Sterling, Bob
Huggins, who who I was representing at the time for a job
with the Clippers, Jerry Tarkanian and yourself.
We go to, we go to, we go to the coaches, hang out in Vegas
(06:48):
and and that's the first time I met you.
And that was a hell of a night, wasn't it?
Tom Penders: Oh, amazing. (06:54):
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When when I think back on it
Bret Adams: Now, for those those listeners are not quite as adept at (06:59):
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sports world as is coaching I.
Bob Huggins was coaching at Cincinnati at the time, and the
Clippers were interested in him jumping into the NBA.
And so we set we set up this meeting, and I remember
Sterling's office had called me before and said that Mr.
(07:23):
Sterling wanted to bring a couple of associates.
And and if you remember time, he brings in these two.
I don't know if they were 20 year old models.
We're going to call them models, but we had those girls.
We had sterling, we had we had hugs and hugs, and I walk in
and like, look at each other and say, Oh my God, this is
this is really happening.
And then. And then the other thing I remember Shelly Smith
(07:45):
from ESPN was in, and she comes over and says, Well, she
obviously figures out, we're there with the owner of the
Los Angeles Clippers, with Tarkanian, with Bob Huggins.
There's no other reason than for us to be there than to be
talking about a job.
And I said, Shelly, I promise you.
I said, Just please don't say anything.
This is this is very sensitive.
(08:06):
You know, Cincinnati wants him back.
Bob doesn't know what he wants to do.
Please don't say anything.
And she kept her word.
And then some people in the next table at Overheard and
they actually ended up calling Fox.
And then I had to end up apologizing to her, saying, Hey,
we didn't, you know, we protecting this, but we didn't know
this was happening. But but anyway, a long winded story to
(08:27):
to the beginning of a great friendship, and I appreciate
you coming on from Miami.
And I really wanted to talk about the litigation crap that
you went through, coach and how it seriously, if anybody
wasn't in your position and had your economic wherewithal
and principle because you were principal and you weren't
(08:49):
going to pay anybody just to get rid of the case.
And that's what I want to talk about and the frustrations
and and tell us about the two pretty high profile
litigation pieces that you ended up as a defendant in.
Tom Penders: Well, I had probably in my life, I had poor situations where (09:02):
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I had to go to court.
One was my first marriage after 10 years was dissolving and
my wife at the time and I had come to the conclusion that
this wasn't working.
(09:23):
We got married at age twenty one and we had a couple of
kids who were living in New York City and we didn't know we
wanted to do, and we split.
And then, you know how those things work?
But I did. I was successful.
And in the fact that I got custody of my two children and
(09:46):
actually one divorce in New York City, I was the first one
and I wasn't impressed with the opposing lawyer.
And I felt that, you know, just just being truthful was the
best way if you're ever in that situation.
For those people that you know are going to face it, it's
(10:10):
good to have an honest lawyer if you can find one.
And I was successful in doing that, but I want to go back
on that night in Las Vegas a little bit when we've we met
for the first time.
It was a custom in the summertime.
(10:30):
Whenever I went out to Las Vegas, I would meet Jerry
Tarkanian and earlier in that day, and that's how Tarek is.
It just beat me at Pedro's restaurant.
It was a popular place for him.
Is probably the only restaurant that.
And it became a place for me.
(10:53):
So much so the owner of the restaurant, a guy named Fred
Glusman, who's still in that business and it's my favorite
place. So I go in there and I was shocked to see hugs in
there. My man, Bob Hogan.
And it was kind of a reunion for us.
(11:13):
And then all of a sudden.
The table and I realized what's going on, and you and I got
to talking a little bit and then hugs left for a few
minutes, went to the bathroom and then I was pushing him
for the clipper job along with you.
(11:35):
Or at least try to get Sterling, Donald Sterling, the
infamous Donald Sterling, who I had met for the first time.
I'm telling him he's nuts if he doesn't go after Bob
Huggins because I think Bob is one of those guys that would
be a great pro coach.
And certainly 20 years ago, he was one of the hottest names
(11:57):
and most qualified guys in college basketball.
And Donald Sterling, after it was over, after that three or
four hour dinner we had with Shelly Smith, you know who I
knew I knew her for?
Oh, probably 15 or 20 years.
(12:20):
She had a great career as a sideline reporter in college
basketball and just about everything else for ESPN.
So anyway, it was kind of a reunion, but I realized early
on that he was interested in Bob Huggins, so I decided,
Well, I'm going to help my friend Bob Huggins here.
(12:43):
But when it's over.
And it was, we closed the place.
Oh yeah.
Bret Adams: Oh, it was. (12:49):
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Tom Penders: It was. (12:50):
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Bret Adams: It was a long. It was a long dinner because I remember (12:51):
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riding back to riding back to the hotel now.
Now, Sterling, of course he's staying.
He's, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm slumming at the Mandalay
Bay and he's at, he's at the Ritz and they're connected out
there. At least they were at the time.
And and we went in in the lobby and he put out, he put on
(13:12):
the napkin what he was going to, what he was going to offer
hugs. And you spent the entire weekend contemplating it.
And Bob finally decided he wasn't going to do it.
But I think if you ask him today and he may, he may have
regretted that because he he would have lasted a couple of
years with the Clippers got fired and and be somewhere else
now, you know, making making six, seven, $8 million a year,
(13:37):
not more coaching coaching in the league.
But but anyway, I don't want to bore our listeners with all
of our our good old sports stories,
Tom Penders: But we became we became friends after that. (13:45):
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Yeah.
Bret Adams: And that was great. (13:49):
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Tom Penders: We got you. You offered me an opportunity to go out and see (13:50):
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the Memorial Golf Tournament.
Yeah. And I was like a kid in a candy store for a couple of
days, out and out in Columbus, Ohio.
And then, you know, we just had a friendship afterwards and
we'd talk all the time and I never had a real agent.
(14:14):
Brett. But if I needed one, you were the guy I would have
called to represent me because we became friends and
trusted friends.
So well, that's that's part of
Bret Adams: What you got to (14:27):
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Tom Penders: Do to the situation. (14:28):
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I appreciate
Bret Adams: It. I appreciate. I really appreciate you saying that. (14:30):
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You remember. Do you remember your buddy?
Tom's really close with with Jim Nance.
Do you remember Nicklaus kind of stiffness a little bit
when we went up in the tower and and Lanny Watkins and and
Jim were very inviting and Nicklaus sat there like a bump
on a log, but that's a different story, too.
(14:52):
Anyway, anyway, anyway, so, so enough name drop.
And we I want to get back to the the two bullshit national
cases that you had where you went to jury on the one where
the coach accused you of defamation and you win that case
and I know why you fought it because you didn't you weren't
(15:14):
going to roll over and pay somebody a dime when you were
trying to protect your reputation.
Tom Penders: Exactly. My dad was a high school coach and a legendary (15:20):
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coach back in Stratford, Connecticut, where I was born and
raised. It's right next to Bridgeport.
It's kind of a sister city.
And my father was the most popular man in Stratford,
(15:40):
Connecticut. You know, he built baseball fields for the for
everybody in the town.
And from five years old to 15 years old, he started a
program where every grammar school in the city had somebody
in the summertime, you know, kind of a camp deal for kids
(16:03):
to play baseball or everything from horseshoes to playing
checkers. The kids stayed out of trouble in the summertime,
and he didn't get a dime for it, but that was just.
Some of the things he did in the city of Stratford and and
he used to say this all the time that nobody can put a
(16:24):
value on your name and that stuck with me.
And, you know, as a coach, you're a public figure.
And any time anybody wants to know what a coach is making
salary wise, all they have to do is send a letter saying
(16:45):
it's public information and they can find out at least what
the school is paying you, not your shoe contract or your
television or radio deal.
But you know your basic salary and your benefits and things
like that come from your contract.
But I got, you know, I got sued by an assistant coach who
(17:10):
never applied for a job after I left.
I can say that after I left Texas, but it was a situation I
found out later on where he was.
He was pushed by the athletic director, who we had a very
public pay to pay, so to speak.
(17:30):
And it wasn't a happy splitting.
But the same athletic director had offered me a new five
year deal about five months earlier before he started
trying to push me out, which is what happens in college
basketball. Very few coaches are going to just resign on
their own. The reality is it if you're a coach and you get
(17:55):
pushed out, you're going to get a nice package to leave.
So I wasn't really against that part of it.
But the athletic director and I got into a personal
situation, which I explained in my book, The Head Coach
Walking that that story is in there.
(18:16):
And, you know, the athletic director and I made up years
later and those things happened.
But the best year I ever had in coaching was when I left
the University of Texas and went to George Washington
University because I was being paid by two schools, right?
(18:38):
I don't know what Mike Sheskey was making in two thousand
one, but I did really well, and it made Sports Illustrated
the whole story.
It wasn't just about me, but it was about assistant coaches
who take the rap for head coaches.
Well, first of all, there were no rules broken in the
(18:59):
situation from an athletic director pushes a former
assistant and.
But was it that an assistant?
Bret Adams: But Tom wasn't that part. (19:08):
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I mean, they were trying to get leverage on you for your
buyout too, right?
I mean, weren't they pushing this this lawsuit to to try to
limit the amount of money that that that they were going to
pay have to pay?
But the fact is, you, you actually you said, I'm not I'm
not authorizing school to pay anything.
(19:29):
I'm not paying anything.
We're going to trial and you went to trial and you and you
you won a jury verdict.
Tom Penders: Yes, I had the I was living in Washington, D.C. (19:36):
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and Potomac, Maryland, when the suit came to be that
particular lawsuit.
Bret Adams: So you had to travel back because jurisdiction was back in (19:48):
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Texas, so you had to travel back and forth.
Yep.
Tom Penders: Take depositions back and forth for that one and do all the (19:54):
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depositions. And incidentally, I had to, you know, on the
advice of my lawyer, I had to go to some friends of mine in
the coaching business, just a couple of them.
And Jerry Tarkanian was one of the coaches who was willing
(20:17):
to take a deposition for me in that lawsuit.
And he did a terrific job explaining how coaches get jobs
and assistant coaches, how they're tied to head coaches,
which a lot of people don't realize.
It happens right in the head coaches, head coaches.
(20:38):
When they get pushed out, the assistant coaches are hanging
by a thread hoping to stay and and, you know, raise their
families or whatever the case may be.
Assistant coaches are the people that get all chewed up in
this whole business when a head coach gets pushed out or
(20:59):
fired. But I didn't get fired.
They were trying to push me out and create a storm, a bleep
storm, right?
Bret Adams: With that with that lawsuit. (21:08):
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But let me ask you this time.
Obviously, you don't have the success that you have in your
life without being a pretty tough guy.
I mean, I know you're a tough guy, but I mean, tell the
listeners how how wearing that litigation is.
I mean, just what an absolute pain in the ass it is.
And just emotionally, especially man.
(21:30):
I mean, the most nervous moments of my life is when that
jury walks out waiting for a decision because I don't care
what lawyer. You never know you just you never, ever know
what they're going to do at the end of the day.
Tom Penders: The only thing I would warn people or tell people about in (21:46):
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this situation is, you know, a coach is a public person and
you know, your name is worth a heck of a lot of money, but
there's no price, in my opinion.
There's no price that I wouldn't pay to protect my name.
(22:08):
And if you lose a lawsuit that becomes a major national
story. They use your name in the story when the lawsuit is
made. Cbs I remember Greg Gumbel on CBS announcers in the
middle of a game in the tournament.
(22:29):
I believe it was in the Elite Eight room that Tom Penders
is being sued by.
Right. An assistant coach and I was watching the game and I
hadn't been served with the papers yet.
Bret Adams: You didn't even know you were being sued until you heard it (22:42):
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on national television.
Tom Penders: Exactly. And I had some people that I knew at CBS, but Jim (22:48):
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Nantz was one of them.
And we've been friends since 1986, when he first came to
CBS and I was a coach at Fordham University in New York in
the Bronx. And it was, you know, over my contacts and
(23:09):
everything else that it helped me.
It helped me in this regard.
I was not a national coach or anything at that time.
And a lot of people were going, Why is this on CBS?
I had about twenty five phone calls within 10 minutes at
(23:33):
that time asked me what the heck is going on?
And I said, Well, I don't really know, but I'll let you
know when I get the actual papers right.
So I went through that.
I had to fly back down there for that one and the opposing
side. It was very evident to me when I got in the courtroom
(23:56):
that I had a real professional lawyer who was interested in
saving my name and doing it for the right reasons.
You know, he put a cap on what is going to charge me.
But anyway, just going through that, it was an education
for me. But I'll say this.
(24:19):
Never go to the court if it's just the judge making the
decision. And you know, I learned that early on in my life
going through that divorce situation.
I said, Boy, I wish I had a jury, but it just turned out I
was lucky that the judge wasn't tied to anybody
(24:42):
politically. And I was happy with that one, but I said,
Boy, if I ever have to go to court again, I want a jury.
Well, you
Bret Adams: You've obviously had (24:53):
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Tom Penders: You got some. I was there. (24:54):
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I was there, Brett, which is what we're talking about.
You know, I got sued after a story hit Sports Illustrated,
the one I was talking about and it talked about all the
money that I made when I left the University of Texas and
(25:15):
somebody up in New Jersey who I had had lunch with one time
during the nineteen ninety six Final Four in New Jersey was
right over the bridge and most of the coaches were staying
in Manhattan.
I had lunch with some friends and this agent type guy was
(25:37):
was representing some of my other friends that were in the
broadcast and television industry because I had done some
work for ESPN for two Final Fours on ESPN two.
I was the The Digger Phelps for ESPN two on The Deuce.
They called it back in nineteen ninety six, right when I
(26:00):
had been doing a lot of work for ESPN and I was told by
somebody a real big guy at ESPN that any time I wanted to
quit coaching and go into television, I had a job.
So I felt like as a, you know, a little parachute from the
business. If I decided to do that, I had the end with ESPN.
(26:25):
But I wanted to know, you know, who should represent me in
those negotiations when, if they ever happened?
Well, that person that that lawyer, I had met one time.
Bret Adams: You basically that you basically Tom were interviewing, (26:41):
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right? I mean, you're interviewing him to decide whether
you want him to represent you, right?
That's basically what happened.
Tom Penders: Exactly, right? (26:49):
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Exactly.
Bret Adams: I mean, I know the story, so I'm trying to get getting ahead (26:50):
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of it a little bit and I don't want to.
But but that that particular agent sued you claiming a fee.
Claiming that he had actually negotiated your deal.
Tom Penders: Right, exactly. (27:05):
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And there was no record of a phone call from him to me in
his phone records.
There were no letters talking about this quote agreement I
have with this guy.
And I was shocked by I didn't even remember the guy's name,
but he he wanted to.
(27:26):
He wanted to sue me.
Well, he did sue me for a couple hundred thousand dollars
because of the contract I did get from the University
Bret Adams: Of the Contract that you essentially negotiated. (27:36):
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Tom Penders: Yes. And I had to go back to Morristown, New Jersey, as I'm (27:39):
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living in Potomac, Maryland, just after I left George
Washington University.
And at that time, I was going to go to ESPN at least for a
couple of years and have some fun with that possible
career. And that's what I ended up doing.
(28:03):
Well, I had this lawsuit to deal with, and I didn't think
it would be good for television or if I wanted to get back
into coaching or stay and coaching at that time, if I lost
the lawsuit from a guy who says he represented me.
You know, I always had a lawyer that would help me with the
(28:24):
contract, but I basically told them the terms that I wanted
in the contract, and his job was just to make sure that he
was able to draw up a legal document that would bind the
school to me and vice versa.
And, you know, I never wanted an agent at that time.
(28:45):
I didn't need an agent.
It was lawyers that helped me write.
But this guy thought that he could, you know, he could get
a couple of hundred grand out of me.
And again, I had to go all the way back to Texas to defend
myself, as I had to do in Potomac during this particular
(29:06):
deal where the agent was suing me.
That was in Morristown, New Jersey.
It was about a five hour drive to go from Potomac,
Maryland, to Morristown, New Jersey.
And when I did get there early on in that particular trial,
I thought the judge up right away.
(29:29):
I said, There's no way we're going in front of this guy if
he's making the decision that my lawyer was a guy I really
didn't know.
But Larry Brown's agent lawyer, a guy named Joe Glass.
The this was the guy.
Yeah. A deposition for you.
(29:49):
His name was Joe Glatt.
I know Joe. Joe knew Joe.
Yeah, great guy.
And he had helped me with my contract going back to the mid
seventies because of my relationship with Larry Brown.
You know, we became friends.
He actually represented one of my players from Colombia
(30:09):
with his contracts over in England and Scotland.
He played for 20 years over there and he coached there.
His name is Elton Byrd, one of the best point guards I ever
coached in a draft pick of the Celtics the same year as
Larry Bird. It would have had two birds on the roster if
the Dolphins decided to go there.
(30:32):
But he went and played over in Europe, and he's now an
owner for the Nets G League team back in Brooklyn.
He's been with the Sacramento Kings and now he's, you know,
he's still in the NBA in terms of front office being the
(30:54):
owner of a G League team.
So anyway.
But yeah, but you represented it out.
Bret Adams: But so you had you get counsel from Joe and then you had (31:00):
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another jury trial? I mean, you, you didn't offer him any
money. I mean, you could have paid him 10 20 grand and been
done with it. And you said, No, I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to do it right.
Tom Penders: No, exactly. (31:17):
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Yeah. Same thing.
You know, defending your name.
Know what's it worth?
And you know, those two lawsuits cost me a couple of
hundred thousand dollars.
But to me, it was worth it.
At that time, I was making a, you know, a lot less than a
million dollars a year.
(31:38):
I'll just say that.
Bret Adams: Yeah, but you still. (31:39):
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But you were in a position, though, Tom, that you you could
afford it, which is, you know, I mean, I tell people,
Listen, if you're if you're a small business, I mean, less
and less. I mean, this is unbelievable to say this.
And but unless you've got a dispute that you've got one
hundred grand on the line, I mean, it's just it's not worth
(32:01):
it. It's not worth the risk.
It's not worth the cost of the litigation.
Again, that goes back to incompetent judges and can't keep
control of the litigation and just allows deposition after
deposition. And you know, that happens with judges that
have never practiced law because they don't know how to
walk in and say, Guys, you don't need to do this.
(32:22):
I mean, how can we resolve this?
That just doesn't happen anymore.
But what I wanted to ask you, Tom, on both these
situations. What was your weight like before both juries
came out? I mean, that's pretty, pretty stressful, isn't
it? I mean, I know I've been
Tom Penders: There for stressful then. (32:37):
undefined
So it's like going through a hundred triple overtime games
and losing at the buzzer in all cases.
So yeah, I didn't.
I don't think I ever really got over nervous for a
basketball game that I coached.
(32:59):
And the bigger the game, the more relaxed I was because I
figured I didn't have to motivate my players.
I could just coaching and maybe work on a referee a little
bit during the game, the guy that needs a little help from
time to time.
But I was nervous as hell for it during that time where you
(33:21):
have to wait for the jury to come back.
But I I didn't want to risk doing it in front of a judge
who is tied to the opposing person who sued me and the
judge. They were friends.
They all were from the same town of Morristown.
(33:42):
As a matter of fact, the lawyer and the judge were members
of the same country club and probably played golf on
numerous occasions.
But they dragged the case out for oh, got a year and a
half. I had to keep going back to Potomac, Maryland, coming
from Potomac to Morristown for pre trials.
(34:06):
Probably seven times.
Yeah, for trials.
Bret Adams: And then most of the pretrial time where these judges want (34:09):
undefined
you there for no damn good reason.
I mean, you're available by phone.
Yeah, it's fine.
But but some again, these judges have never been in real
life and understand the cost of going back and forth and
paying the attorney fees when, when you know, it's almost
(34:32):
like there were certain parts of Kobe that worked out for
the legal system because you didn't have all these damn
in-person hearings, you could do them on Zoom and not have
the the time and expense most of the time.
Being able to to do it, but the fortunate part is you did
have the financial wherewithal to stand up for your name
and being able to challenge these guys where you know where
(34:55):
the average person, you know they're going to, especially
in a small business, they're going to pay five, 10, 20
grand to get rid of it. And unfortunately, there's so many
lawyers that take advantage of that that, no, you can't do
it. So let me let me squeeze it 20 grand out of them
because it's going to cost him 100 to to litigate this
(35:16):
case, which is just total bullshit, just bullshit.
Tom Penders: But yeah, it's somebody trying to make money off your name. (35:20):
undefined
Get a little fame there, get their name in the newspaper.
And that's basically what happened in this case.
But by choosing a jury, I felt comfortable that, you know,
I believe there were seven jurors in this particular case
(35:43):
in Morristown, New Jersey, and it was a case that should
have lasted about 12 hours.
Instead, it dragged out almost two weeks because of the
judge. He was he was obviously trying to set up situations
where, you know, the guy who is suing me would have the
(36:04):
best opportunity to win, and it was ridiculous.
I mean, he actually every day he did something, and at one
point my lawyer just got up and walked out of the
courtroom. That was so ridiculous and absurd for him.
And I was wondering what the world's going on here.
(36:25):
The judge said to me, Well, Mr.
Penders, where do we go from here?
And I said, I don't know your honor.
You're the judge here.
I don't know what I should do, but I'd be willing to
represent myself if I have to, because this case is, you
know, it's ridiculous.
(36:46):
It's absurd, and it's one of those frivolous lawsuits.
Bret Adams: So that's so you were able to say that. (36:50):
undefined
So you were able to stand up, which is which is fantastic
because most lawyers, frankly, are cowards.
It's unbelievable.
These the lawyers talk this big game out in the bar, into
your in the office and they come in and they got their tail
between their their their legs.
They're petrified.
I mean, it just I've seen it my entire career.
(37:13):
But but Tom, I mean, just logically, you know, this is a
contract case between you and this guy, you know, should
have taken the two witnesses should have been yourself and
him. Right.
And then and then and then have that jury judge that
credibility. So instead, this judge, you know, allowed this
case to go. I mean, I don't even think it should have been
12 hours. You should have had this case should have been
(37:35):
done in a day.
Tom Penders: Right, exactly. (37:36):
undefined
And boy, you know, you know, a little bit more about law
than I do.
But you know, it goes I didn't really know how they could
delay a trial.
I drive all the way, five hour drive.
I get to the courtroom with my wife, and all of a sudden,
(37:57):
there's nobody there.
It's an empty room and the court comes out and says, Well,
we're going to have a trial a month and a half from now
today. In the meantime, I'm there with my attorney.
There's no opposing anybody.
But the judge said, come back in a month and a half.
(38:19):
So I come back in a month and a half on that date.
Same thing. Empty courtroom.
No, no opposing lawyer.
The guy who sued me isn't there seven different times.
I had to do that and I was, you know?
My time is worth a lot of money.
And my name was worth a heck of a lot more than the time,
(38:42):
so, you know, I fought it and I won.
And it was like an hour and a half.
The jury came, came back and I didn't know whether because
it was in Morristown, New Jersey, but it was a unanimous
decision. And.
(39:03):
You know, I
Bret Adams: Want your concern was that you had it, you were you were not (39:04):
undefined
on the home court and you had that judge probably tainting
the jury. But this but showing up with the lawyer and
driving that way and then not having a hearing.
I mean, there's got to be some accountability.
I mean, here they're just there has to be.
And the problem is is the lawyers won't stand up and say
(39:25):
anything. I mean, because if you do now, you take some
risk. You know, if your guy stands up and said, Hey, this
is bullshit, why driving all the way over here, wasting my
time and you couldn't call me, you couldn't do anything to
to stop this?
And then you run the risk of of alienating them even even
further. But you know what?
(39:45):
That. Hey, Thomas, why I'm doing this podcast, man, I'm
trying to. I'm taking situations like yours and and trying
to make change with it. Because if you had a competent
judge and a non biased judge in your situation, probably
one you don't even go to trial and you get it resolved.
Tom Penders: But, well, brothers, you know, people can sue you for (40:03):
undefined
anything and the civil case, they can sue you at any time
for anything in our country instead of having it like it is
over in England, where the loser has to pay all the cost,
including the opposing lawyers.
(40:24):
But in our country, you know you have to pay your lawyer.
I don't know what goes on with the guy who sued you.
It was probably one of those.
The lawyer gets seventy five percent and the plaintiff, if
he wins, he gets twenty five percent.
But the loser, which would have been me.
(40:44):
If I lost those cases, I would have been probably held up
for at least a couple hundred thousand.
And all the expenses, so, you know, would have been a
year's salary out of my pocket to defend myself.
A lot of people don't know what goes on in this case, the
(41:06):
jury, you have to assume they know nothing about your
profession. So I had some coaching friends like Jerry
Tarkanian, and I'm sure Bob Huggins.
If I had asked him to do a deposition, he would.
But, you know, I had a talk with the main guy, he said to
(41:27):
that former assistant of mine in his deposition.
Like Eddie, I have an opportunity out here at Fresno.
We have a place open now.
Why don't you send me an email?
And, you know, I think you're the type of guy that could
(41:47):
fill that position.
And, you know, that was played in the courtroom.
And I think that had a big because people don't realize,
you know, the coaching business coaches are hired all the
time. And I don't want to mention any names of guys who've
been in litigation or have been thrown out of coaching for
(42:11):
five years because they broke some rules, whether their
assistant coaches or head coaches.
But people don't realize that when you're a coach, a
college coach in particular, you lose a lawsuit, you're
probably your career is probably ended.
As a college level, you might have to go.
(42:32):
You remember a guy, another coaching friend of mine, Jim
Bret Adams: O'brien, Jim, (42:36):
undefined
Tom Penders: Who won a major award. (42:37):
undefined
Well, yeah, yeah, he was.
He won a lawsuit at Ohio State.
He sued the athletic director in the school, but he
couldn't get a job anymore.
He won because he was literally a trackball.
That's right, because he won a lawsuit.
He was fired without cause.
(42:58):
And, you know, Jim was one of the best coaches in the
business, and he couldn't even get interviewed for college
jobs after that because it's a big
Bret Adams: Family to Tom. (43:08):
undefined
I mean, he was he was as good as human being as he was as a
competent coach.
Tom Penders: But yes, he was. And he he he, I think, now retired. (43:15):
undefined
But he gala's Division Three job in Boston, he wanted to
coach so badly that he said, you know, I'll coach Division
three. He would have even coached high school if that was
all that was available. He was a guy who could have coached
(43:35):
in the NBA. He had a great team.
Great, great person.
He was also a great basketball player at Boston College.
But you know, if you sue, if you sue, it's so public the
case becomes public.
So anyway, people don't realize that for us, the people
(43:58):
outside.
Bret Adams: That's why I wanted you on here. (43:58):
undefined
I wanted, I wanted.
I wanted to.
People to hear your story, because one of the things that
we're really advocating is especially in Ohio, I mean, you
want to eliminate half the lawyers is that you require
every case like you're in your cases are perfect examples
is that you're required to go to a mediation before you
(44:21):
file a lawsuit you want to eliminate.
Half the lawsuits in the state of Ohio is you require
mediation with a competent mediator, so you don't you don't
get it in some jackasses hands that that's looking in your
case to get his name associated with, you know, I'm suing
the, you know, the coach at Texas and and you're a bigger
(44:41):
target. I mean, as a celebrity, you're a bigger you're a
bigger target anyway.
But but man, I think we made a little education here, Tom,
with your story and and I really appreciate you doing this
and and catching up on this because I think it's a these
these cases are indicative of why we need to change
litigation and limit the role of lawyers in these kind of
(45:05):
cases. And I think we'll be much better off as a society,
but really appreciate you taking the time.
Is it 85 or 90 in your South Beach home right now?
Tom Penders: Well, I'm very happy that I bought a condo down in Florida (45:15):
undefined
at age 20.
I forgot how old I was, but it was about two thousand one
twenty one years ago.
You know, I had back surgery, so it's a nice place to
rehab. Nice, warm,
Bret Adams: But it's probably not bet it's probably not gone up in value (45:35):
undefined
in the last couple of years, either, has it?
Tom Penders: No, I will. (45:41):
undefined
I'll never sell it. My wife and I love it here.
And we also have a home up in Rhode Island.
But you know, as you get older, you like the warm weather
more and more. And I always did.
And you know, we we sit here and watch the cruise ships go
in and out. We've got a nice beach, which is an easy walk
(46:04):
from where we are and it's it's a great city.
Oh, I love it.
Bret Adams: I love it down there. (46:09):
undefined
We got we got two or three inches of snow come tonight.
So appreciate that.
Appreciate that
Tom Penders: Visual. It's 82 degrees there, right? (46:15):
undefined
Eighty two degrees.
Yeah, I work for the chamber, yeah, you do.
Here is a side.
Bret Adams: Thank you. Hey, thanks for coming on, buddy. (46:25):
undefined
I really appreciate it.
Tom Penders: My pleasure. (46:28):
undefined
Bret Adams: Thank you. Tom Penders, Great guy. (46:30):
undefined
Great story. I wanted Tom on here to talk about his
litigation experiences.
We're going to have a lot of conversations moving forward
about bad civil litigation, bad plaintiffs lawyers, bad
defense lawyers and bad, incompetent judges that I mean,
who in the world what?
What competent judge would allow a dispute between two
(46:54):
individuals take two weeks of time, extended this.
I have pretrial and you don't show up for.
I mean, it's just it's outrageous.
But until until lawyers have the balls to stand up and say,
I just cost him my client money, I can't just not show up.
I mean, you can't just have us drive five hours and not
(47:16):
show up for a pretrial or whatever type of hearing it is.
We need competent judges that are going to take control of
that situation and not and not let it happen.
And the other element that I wanted to to show was Tom
Penders made a lot of money coaching basketball and and he
could afford.
He could absolutely afford to defend these cases.
(47:37):
Take it to the I mean, even if he owed the money, he could
afford to pay it. And most people can't.
They just can't do that.
But you know, we're going to harp on this for as long as as
I'm able to do this podcast.
But but if we can get legislatures to take lawyers out of
the process initially and not end up in a courtroom or
somebody's shotgun in a lawsuit against somebody else, if
(47:59):
we have what I've talked about as a mandatory mediation
before you pay a filing fee to file a lawsuit will
eliminate half the civil litigation in the state of Ohio,
and we'll limit half and half of them.
But my goal is to eliminate many lawyers as I can.
So anyway, thank you for tuning in.
That is my rant of the day, and we'll talk to you next
(48:22):
time.
undefined
All by myself.
Just like you to
Bret Adams: Welcome to lawyers are assholes. (00:15):
undefined
I'm your host, Brad Adams, a lawyer, I should say a
recovering lawyer who found a platform to address a broken
legal system. This is where we call out incompetent and
unscrupulous lawyers, prosecutors and judges.
Anyone that touches the legal system.
We're coming after you.
If you're an asshole, my guest today is Tom Penders.
If you're a sports fan, you'll know who Tom Penders is.
(00:37):
Tom Penders is one of the winningest NCAA basketball
coaches in the history of the game.
Long stints coach in at Texas Houston.
Very, very successful collegiate coach.
A really good friend of mine, and you're going to hear the
stories one of the greatest nights of my life when I met
Tom Penders and just give you a hint.
(00:59):
It involves the L.A.
Clippers owner Donald Sterling.
Bob Huggins, Jerry Tarkanian and a couple of models.
And we're going to get into that a little bit.
But Tom is on here because Tom has has been through the
civil litigation grinder, and we're going to talk about the
trials and tribulations of of defending two cases, both
(01:22):
which he won by jury verdicts.
But the expense the inability for most people to actually
represent themselves because of the cost in civil
litigation items, a different animal because he's done very
well financially and had the ability to to pay these
defense costs. But we're going to go through his horrendous
(01:43):
history and involvement with the legal system.
So before we bring Tommy, we're going to talk about the
asshole of the week, and I normally I do a couple of these,
but this asshole today deserves an entire section.
Actually, the entire show could be about specific assholes
of the week across the country.
But but this one takes the case and it's a little bit
(02:04):
personal to me. But in Columbus, Ohio, we had a little bit
of public corruption cases over the past couple of years,
and we had a fella in full disclosure.
He's a really good friend of mine named John Rafael.
So John was charged and convicted a few years ago for
extorting some political contributions, paid his dues,
(02:27):
serve 16 months in a federal penitentiary, and life went
on. John came back out, tried to get his life back together
and frankly did have his life back together.
Except they came back the the feds came back after him for
another charge.
It should have been frankly charged at the same time the
(02:49):
original case was.
But to make a long story short, and here's why this fella
Peter Glenn Applegate now why this guy has a hyphenated
name, I don't know, but he's an assistant federal
prosecutor in the assistant district here in Columbus,
Ohio. So John Rafael is charged again, works out of plea
agreement and goes to get sentenced.
(03:11):
And the federal judge here in the 6th District, Watson,
says to the prosecutor and to John verbatim transcript
you've been to prison, Watson told Rafael at the hearing.
You've come out of prison, you lost your mother, you lost
your brother, you lost your business, you lost your
reputation. Now, apparently, for Mr.
(03:33):
Glenn Applegate, this wasn't a satisfactory way of dealing
with Mr.
Rafael's sentence because Mr.
Watson gave him 18 months of home confinement, 18 months and
another conviction.
All right. So now what happens at this point is that this
Mr. Glenn Applegate files a forty nine page appeal of the
(03:55):
sentence, OK, which which he basically has zero chance.
I mean, discretion is discretionary.
But here's the issue.
You've got a guy Johns, almost 67 years old, twice
convicted felon.
The judge gave him a break with home confinement.
He's already spent 18 months in prison.
He is in horrendous health, almost 67 years old.
(04:18):
What is the purpose of putting this guy at our tax dollars
back in the pokey?
Sam SHYMANSKY, a well-renowned, I should say, criminal
defense lawyer, a buddy of mine who practices here in this
jurisdiction, said at best, such a move to appeal the
sentence is not even allowed in state court, says Sam.
But just because you have the right to appeal doesn't make
(04:40):
it appropriate. What you have here is a bunch of crybaby
because the judge has the courage to do what is
appropriate. I can't agree with Sam anymore.
Now, I don't know if this guy is an assistant prosecutor.
I don't know if he was forced to do it by Kenneth Parker,
the newly appointed U.S.
(05:00):
attorney. But it really is outrageous.
I mean, and I reached out to the guy who invited him on the
podcast. Of course, they're not going to respond.
They're not going to. Come on, and he he refused in an
email to do it. First, I had to chase down their emails
because apparently they're so important that you can't get
an email of a assistant U.S.
(05:21):
attorney, which is outrageous.
So what I do, I went out and I did a public records
request. I'm going to get all their emails.
They're just not that damn important to to not allow the
public to be able to communicate with them.
But anyway, this guy is absolutely the asshole of the week.
I can't wait till he's embarrassed with this Court of
Appeals decision that comes back.
(05:43):
And then we can find out.
I'd really like to know.
Actually, I'd really like to know what motivates this guy.
Said this to him in an email.
I said, what would motivate you to to to sit in your office
and write a 49 page appeal brief, trying to trying to send
this guy back to prison?
I mean, what are you thinking?
(06:03):
What goes through your thought process to do this to
another human being?
I just don't get it.
Mr. Glenn Applegate, hyphenated name You are the asshole of
the week. Welcome, welcome, Tom Penders to lawyers are
assholes now I got I got it.
We got to tell the listeners to coach before we get into
(06:24):
this thing, how how you and I met one of the most memorable
evenings of my my life involving Donald Sterling, Bob
Huggins, who who I was representing at the time for a job
with the Clippers, Jerry Tarkanian and yourself.
We go to, we go to, we go to the coaches, hang out in Vegas
(06:48):
and and that's the first time I met you.
And that was a hell of a night, wasn't it?
Tom Penders: Oh, amazing. (06:54):
undefined
When when I think back on it
Bret Adams: Now, for those those listeners are not quite as adept at (06:59):
undefined
sports world as is coaching I.
Bob Huggins was coaching at Cincinnati at the time, and the
Clippers were interested in him jumping into the NBA.
And so we set we set up this meeting, and I remember
Sterling's office had called me before and said that Mr.
(07:23):
Sterling wanted to bring a couple of associates.
And and if you remember time, he brings in these two.
I don't know if they were 20 year old models.
We're going to call them models, but we had those girls.
We had sterling, we had we had hugs and hugs, and I walk in
and like, look at each other and say, Oh my God, this is
this is really happening.
And then. And then the other thing I remember Shelly Smith
(07:45):
from ESPN was in, and she comes over and says, Well, she
obviously figures out, we're there with the owner of the
Los Angeles Clippers, with Tarkanian, with Bob Huggins.
There's no other reason than for us to be there than to be
talking about a job.
And I said, Shelly, I promise you.
I said, Just please don't say anything.
This is this is very sensitive.
(08:06):
You know, Cincinnati wants him back.
Bob doesn't know what he wants to do.
Please don't say anything.
And she kept her word.
And then some people in the next table at Overheard and
they actually ended up calling Fox.
And then I had to end up apologizing to her, saying, Hey,
we didn't, you know, we protecting this, but we didn't know
this was happening. But but anyway, a long winded story to
(08:27):
to the beginning of a great friendship, and I appreciate
you coming on from Miami.
And I really wanted to talk about the litigation crap that
you went through, coach and how it seriously, if anybody
wasn't in your position and had your economic wherewithal
and principle because you were principal and you weren't
(08:49):
going to pay anybody just to get rid of the case.
And that's what I want to talk about and the frustrations
and and tell us about the two pretty high profile
litigation pieces that you ended up as a defendant in.
Tom Penders: Well, I had probably in my life, I had poor situations where (09:02):
undefined
I had to go to court.
One was my first marriage after 10 years was dissolving and
my wife at the time and I had come to the conclusion that
this wasn't working.
(09:23):
We got married at age twenty one and we had a couple of
kids who were living in New York City and we didn't know we
wanted to do, and we split.
And then, you know how those things work?
But I did. I was successful.
And in the fact that I got custody of my two children and
(09:46):
actually one divorce in New York City, I was the first one
and I wasn't impressed with the opposing lawyer.
And I felt that, you know, just just being truthful was the
best way if you're ever in that situation.
For those people that you know are going to face it, it's
(10:10):
good to have an honest lawyer if you can find one.
And I was successful in doing that, but I want to go back
on that night in Las Vegas a little bit when we've we met
for the first time.
It was a custom in the summertime.
(10:30):
Whenever I went out to Las Vegas, I would meet Jerry
Tarkanian and earlier in that day, and that's how Tarek is.
It just beat me at Pedro's restaurant.
It was a popular place for him.
Is probably the only restaurant that.
And it became a place for me.
(10:53):
So much so the owner of the restaurant, a guy named Fred
Glusman, who's still in that business and it's my favorite
place. So I go in there and I was shocked to see hugs in
there. My man, Bob Hogan.
And it was kind of a reunion for us.
(11:13):
And then all of a sudden.
The table and I realized what's going on, and you and I got
to talking a little bit and then hugs left for a few
minutes, went to the bathroom and then I was pushing him
for the clipper job along with you.
(11:35):
Or at least try to get Sterling, Donald Sterling, the
infamous Donald Sterling, who I had met for the first time.
I'm telling him he's nuts if he doesn't go after Bob
Huggins because I think Bob is one of those guys that would
be a great pro coach.
And certainly 20 years ago, he was one of the hottest names
(11:57):
and most qualified guys in college basketball.
And Donald Sterling, after it was over, after that three or
four hour dinner we had with Shelly Smith, you know who I
knew I knew her for?
Oh, probably 15 or 20 years.
(12:20):
She had a great career as a sideline reporter in college
basketball and just about everything else for ESPN.
So anyway, it was kind of a reunion, but I realized early
on that he was interested in Bob Huggins, so I decided,
Well, I'm going to help my friend Bob Huggins here.
(12:43):
But when it's over.
And it was, we closed the place.
Oh yeah.
Bret Adams: Oh, it was. (12:49):
undefined
Tom Penders: It was. (12:50):
undefined
Bret Adams: It was a long. It was a long dinner because I remember (12:51):
undefined
riding back to riding back to the hotel now.
Now, Sterling, of course he's staying.
He's, you know, I'm a I'm a I'm slumming at the Mandalay
Bay and he's at, he's at the Ritz and they're connected out
there. At least they were at the time.
And and we went in in the lobby and he put out, he put on
(13:12):
the napkin what he was going to, what he was going to offer
hugs. And you spent the entire weekend contemplating it.
And Bob finally decided he wasn't going to do it.
But I think if you ask him today and he may, he may have
regretted that because he he would have lasted a couple of
years with the Clippers got fired and and be somewhere else
now, you know, making making six, seven, $8 million a year,
(13:37):
not more coaching coaching in the league.
But but anyway, I don't want to bore our listeners with all
of our our good old sports stories,
Tom Penders: But we became we became friends after that. (13:45):
undefined
Yeah.
Bret Adams: And that was great. (13:49):
undefined
Tom Penders: We got you. You offered me an opportunity to go out and see (13:50):
undefined
the Memorial Golf Tournament.
Yeah. And I was like a kid in a candy store for a couple of
days, out and out in Columbus, Ohio.
And then, you know, we just had a friendship afterwards and
we'd talk all the time and I never had a real agent.
(14:14):
Brett. But if I needed one, you were the guy I would have
called to represent me because we became friends and
trusted friends.
So well, that's that's part of
Bret Adams: What you got to (14:27):
undefined
Tom Penders: Do to the situation. (14:28):
undefined
I appreciate
Bret Adams: It. I appreciate. I really appreciate you saying that. (14:30):
undefined
You remember. Do you remember your buddy?
Tom's really close with with Jim Nance.
Do you remember Nicklaus kind of stiffness a little bit
when we went up in the tower and and Lanny Watkins and and
Jim were very inviting and Nicklaus sat there like a bump
on a log, but that's a different story, too.
(14:52):
Anyway, anyway, anyway, so, so enough name drop.
And we I want to get back to the the two bullshit national
cases that you had where you went to jury on the one where
the coach accused you of defamation and you win that case
and I know why you fought it because you didn't you weren't
(15:14):
going to roll over and pay somebody a dime when you were
trying to protect your reputation.
Tom Penders: Exactly. My dad was a high school coach and a legendary (15:20):
undefined
coach back in Stratford, Connecticut, where I was born and
raised. It's right next to Bridgeport.
It's kind of a sister city.
And my father was the most popular man in Stratford,
(15:40):
Connecticut. You know, he built baseball fields for the for
everybody in the town.
And from five years old to 15 years old, he started a
program where every grammar school in the city had somebody
in the summertime, you know, kind of a camp deal for kids
(16:03):
to play baseball or everything from horseshoes to playing
checkers. The kids stayed out of trouble in the summertime,
and he didn't get a dime for it, but that was just.
Some of the things he did in the city of Stratford and and
he used to say this all the time that nobody can put a
(16:24):
value on your name and that stuck with me.
And, you know, as a coach, you're a public figure.
And any time anybody wants to know what a coach is making
salary wise, all they have to do is send a letter saying
(16:45):
it's public information and they can find out at least what
the school is paying you, not your shoe contract or your
television or radio deal.
But you know your basic salary and your benefits and things
like that come from your contract.
But I got, you know, I got sued by an assistant coach who
(17:10):
never applied for a job after I left.
I can say that after I left Texas, but it was a situation I
found out later on where he was.
He was pushed by the athletic director, who we had a very
public pay to pay, so to speak.
(17:30):
And it wasn't a happy splitting.
But the same athletic director had offered me a new five
year deal about five months earlier before he started
trying to push me out, which is what happens in college
basketball. Very few coaches are going to just resign on
their own. The reality is it if you're a coach and you get
(17:55):
pushed out, you're going to get a nice package to leave.
So I wasn't really against that part of it.
But the athletic director and I got into a personal
situation, which I explained in my book, The Head Coach
Walking that that story is in there.
(18:16):
And, you know, the athletic director and I made up years
later and those things happened.
But the best year I ever had in coaching was when I left
the University of Texas and went to George Washington
University because I was being paid by two schools, right?
(18:38):
I don't know what Mike Sheskey was making in two thousand
one, but I did really well, and it made Sports Illustrated
the whole story.
It wasn't just about me, but it was about assistant coaches
who take the rap for head coaches.
Well, first of all, there were no rules broken in the
(18:59):
situation from an athletic director pushes a former
assistant and.
But was it that an assistant?
Bret Adams: But Tom wasn't that part. (19:08):
undefined
I mean, they were trying to get leverage on you for your
buyout too, right?
I mean, weren't they pushing this this lawsuit to to try to
limit the amount of money that that that they were going to
pay have to pay?
But the fact is, you, you actually you said, I'm not I'm
not authorizing school to pay anything.
(19:29):
I'm not paying anything.
We're going to trial and you went to trial and you and you
you won a jury verdict.
Tom Penders: Yes, I had the I was living in Washington, D.C. (19:36):
undefined
and Potomac, Maryland, when the suit came to be that
particular lawsuit.
Bret Adams: So you had to travel back because jurisdiction was back in (19:48):
undefined
Texas, so you had to travel back and forth.
Yep.
Tom Penders: Take depositions back and forth for that one and do all the (19:54):
undefined
depositions. And incidentally, I had to, you know, on the
advice of my lawyer, I had to go to some friends of mine in
the coaching business, just a couple of them.
And Jerry Tarkanian was one of the coaches who was willing
(20:17):
to take a deposition for me in that lawsuit.
And he did a terrific job explaining how coaches get jobs
and assistant coaches, how they're tied to head coaches,
which a lot of people don't realize.
It happens right in the head coaches, head coaches.
(20:38):
When they get pushed out, the assistant coaches are hanging
by a thread hoping to stay and and, you know, raise their
families or whatever the case may be.
Assistant coaches are the people that get all chewed up in
this whole business when a head coach gets pushed out or
(20:59):
fired. But I didn't get fired.
They were trying to push me out and create a storm, a bleep
storm, right?
Bret Adams: With that with that lawsuit. (21:08):
undefined
But let me ask you this time.
Obviously, you don't have the success that you have in your
life without being a pretty tough guy.
I mean, I know you're a tough guy, but I mean, tell the
listeners how how wearing that litigation is.
I mean, just what an absolute pain in the ass it is.
And just emotionally, especially man.
(21:30):
I mean, the most nervous moments of my life is when that
jury walks out waiting for a decision because I don't care
what lawyer. You never know you just you never, ever know
what they're going to do at the end of the day.
Tom Penders: The only thing I would warn people or tell people about in (21:46):
undefined
this situation is, you know, a coach is a public person and
you know, your name is worth a heck of a lot of money, but
there's no price, in my opinion.
There's no price that I wouldn't pay to protect my name.
(22:08):
And if you lose a lawsuit that becomes a major national
story. They use your name in the story when the lawsuit is
made. Cbs I remember Greg Gumbel on CBS announcers in the
middle of a game in the tournament.
(22:29):
I believe it was in the Elite Eight room that Tom Penders
is being sued by.
Right. An assistant coach and I was watching the game and I
hadn't been served with the papers yet.
Bret Adams: You didn't even know you were being sued until you heard it (22:42):
undefined
on national television.
Tom Penders: Exactly. And I had some people that I knew at CBS, but Jim (22:48):
undefined
Nantz was one of them.
And we've been friends since 1986, when he first came to
CBS and I was a coach at Fordham University in New York in
the Bronx. And it was, you know, over my contacts and
(23:09):
everything else that it helped me.
It helped me in this regard.
I was not a national coach or anything at that time.
And a lot of people were going, Why is this on CBS?
I had about twenty five phone calls within 10 minutes at
(23:33):
that time asked me what the heck is going on?
And I said, Well, I don't really know, but I'll let you
know when I get the actual papers right.
So I went through that.
I had to fly back down there for that one and the opposing
side. It was very evident to me when I got in the courtroom
(23:56):
that I had a real professional lawyer who was interested in
saving my name and doing it for the right reasons.
You know, he put a cap on what is going to charge me.
But anyway, just going through that, it was an education
for me. But I'll say this.
(24:19):
Never go to the court if it's just the judge making the
decision. And you know, I learned that early on in my life
going through that divorce situation.
I said, Boy, I wish I had a jury, but it just turned out I
was lucky that the judge wasn't tied to anybody
(24:42):
politically. And I was happy with that one, but I said,
Boy, if I ever have to go to court again, I want a jury.
Well, you
Bret Adams: You've obviously had (24:53):
undefined
Tom Penders: You got some. I was there. (24:54):
undefined
I was there, Brett, which is what we're talking about.
You know, I got sued after a story hit Sports Illustrated,
the one I was talking about and it talked about all the
money that I made when I left the University of Texas and
(25:15):
somebody up in New Jersey who I had had lunch with one time
during the nineteen ninety six Final Four in New Jersey was
right over the bridge and most of the coaches were staying
in Manhattan.
I had lunch with some friends and this agent type guy was
(25:37):
was representing some of my other friends that were in the
broadcast and television industry because I had done some
work for ESPN for two Final Fours on ESPN two.
I was the The Digger Phelps for ESPN two on The Deuce.
They called it back in nineteen ninety six, right when I
(26:00):
had been doing a lot of work for ESPN and I was told by
somebody a real big guy at ESPN that any time I wanted to
quit coaching and go into television, I had a job.
So I felt like as a, you know, a little parachute from the
business. If I decided to do that, I had the end with ESPN.
(26:25):
But I wanted to know, you know, who should represent me in
those negotiations when, if they ever happened?
Well, that person that that lawyer, I had met one time.
Bret Adams: You basically that you basically Tom were interviewing, (26:41):
undefined
right? I mean, you're interviewing him to decide whether
you want him to represent you, right?
That's basically what happened.
Tom Penders: Exactly, right? (26:49):
undefined
Exactly.
Bret Adams: I mean, I know the story, so I'm trying to get getting ahead (26:50):
undefined
of it a little bit and I don't want to.
But but that that particular agent sued you claiming a fee.
Claiming that he had actually negotiated your deal.
Tom Penders: Right, exactly. (27:05):
undefined
And there was no record of a phone call from him to me in
his phone records.
There were no letters talking about this quote agreement I
have with this guy.
And I was shocked by I didn't even remember the guy's name,
but he he wanted to.
(27:26):
He wanted to sue me.
Well, he did sue me for a couple hundred thousand dollars
because of the contract I did get from the University
Bret Adams: Of the Contract that you essentially negotiated. (27:36):
undefined
Tom Penders: Yes. And I had to go back to Morristown, New Jersey, as I'm (27:39):
undefined
living in Potomac, Maryland, just after I left George
Washington University.
And at that time, I was going to go to ESPN at least for a
couple of years and have some fun with that possible
career. And that's what I ended up doing.
(28:03):
Well, I had this lawsuit to deal with, and I didn't think
it would be good for television or if I wanted to get back
into coaching or stay and coaching at that time, if I lost
the lawsuit from a guy who says he represented me.
You know, I always had a lawyer that would help me with the
(28:24):
contract, but I basically told them the terms that I wanted
in the contract, and his job was just to make sure that he
was able to draw up a legal document that would bind the
school to me and vice versa.
And, you know, I never wanted an agent at that time.
(28:45):
I didn't need an agent.
It was lawyers that helped me write.
But this guy thought that he could, you know, he could get
a couple of hundred grand out of me.
And again, I had to go all the way back to Texas to defend
myself, as I had to do in Potomac during this particular
(29:06):
deal where the agent was suing me.
That was in Morristown, New Jersey.
It was about a five hour drive to go from Potomac,
Maryland, to Morristown, New Jersey.
And when I did get there early on in that particular trial,
I thought the judge up right away.
(29:29):
I said, There's no way we're going in front of this guy if
he's making the decision that my lawyer was a guy I really
didn't know.
But Larry Brown's agent lawyer, a guy named Joe Glass.
The this was the guy.
Yeah. A deposition for you.
(29:49):
His name was Joe Glatt.
I know Joe. Joe knew Joe.
Yeah, great guy.
And he had helped me with my contract going back to the mid
seventies because of my relationship with Larry Brown.
You know, we became friends.
He actually represented one of my players from Colombia
(30:09):
with his contracts over in England and Scotland.
He played for 20 years over there and he coached there.
His name is Elton Byrd, one of the best point guards I ever
coached in a draft pick of the Celtics the same year as
Larry Bird. It would have had two birds on the roster if
the Dolphins decided to go there.
(30:32):
But he went and played over in Europe, and he's now an
owner for the Nets G League team back in Brooklyn.
He's been with the Sacramento Kings and now he's, you know,
he's still in the NBA in terms of front office being the
(30:54):
owner of a G League team.
So anyway.
But yeah, but you represented it out.
Bret Adams: But so you had you get counsel from Joe and then you had (31:00):
undefined
another jury trial? I mean, you, you didn't offer him any
money. I mean, you could have paid him 10 20 grand and been
done with it. And you said, No, I'm not going to do it.
I'm not going to do it right.
Tom Penders: No, exactly. (31:17):
undefined
Yeah. Same thing.
You know, defending your name.
Know what's it worth?
And you know, those two lawsuits cost me a couple of
hundred thousand dollars.
But to me, it was worth it.
At that time, I was making a, you know, a lot less than a
million dollars a year.
(31:38):
I'll just say that.
Bret Adams: Yeah, but you still. (31:39):
undefined
But you were in a position, though, Tom, that you you could
afford it, which is, you know, I mean, I tell people,
Listen, if you're if you're a small business, I mean, less
and less. I mean, this is unbelievable to say this.
And but unless you've got a dispute that you've got one
hundred grand on the line, I mean, it's just it's not worth
(32:01):
it. It's not worth the risk.
It's not worth the cost of the litigation.
Again, that goes back to incompetent judges and can't keep
control of the litigation and just allows deposition after
deposition. And you know, that happens with judges that
have never practiced law because they don't know how to
walk in and say, Guys, you don't need to do this.
(32:22):
I mean, how can we resolve this?
That just doesn't happen anymore.
But what I wanted to ask you, Tom, on both these
situations. What was your weight like before both juries
came out? I mean, that's pretty, pretty stressful, isn't
it? I mean, I know I've been
Tom Penders: There for stressful then. (32:37):
undefined
So it's like going through a hundred triple overtime games
and losing at the buzzer in all cases.
So yeah, I didn't.
I don't think I ever really got over nervous for a
basketball game that I coached.
(32:59):
And the bigger the game, the more relaxed I was because I
figured I didn't have to motivate my players.
I could just coaching and maybe work on a referee a little
bit during the game, the guy that needs a little help from
time to time.
But I was nervous as hell for it during that time where you
(33:21):
have to wait for the jury to come back.
But I I didn't want to risk doing it in front of a judge
who is tied to the opposing person who sued me and the
judge. They were friends.
They all were from the same town of Morristown.
(33:42):
As a matter of fact, the lawyer and the judge were members
of the same country club and probably played golf on
numerous occasions.
But they dragged the case out for oh, got a year and a
half. I had to keep going back to Potomac, Maryland, coming
from Potomac to Morristown for pre trials.
(34:06):
Probably seven times.
Yeah, for trials.
Bret Adams: And then most of the pretrial time where these judges want (34:09):
undefined
you there for no damn good reason.
I mean, you're available by phone.
Yeah, it's fine.
But but some again, these judges have never been in real
life and understand the cost of going back and forth and
paying the attorney fees when, when you know, it's almost
(34:32):
like there were certain parts of Kobe that worked out for
the legal system because you didn't have all these damn
in-person hearings, you could do them on Zoom and not have
the the time and expense most of the time.
Being able to to do it, but the fortunate part is you did
have the financial wherewithal to stand up for your name
and being able to challenge these guys where you know where
(34:55):
the average person, you know they're going to, especially
in a small business, they're going to pay five, 10, 20
grand to get rid of it. And unfortunately, there's so many
lawyers that take advantage of that that, no, you can't do
it. So let me let me squeeze it 20 grand out of them
because it's going to cost him 100 to to litigate this
(35:16):
case, which is just total bullshit, just bullshit.
Tom Penders: But yeah, it's somebody trying to make money off your name. (35:20):
undefined
Get a little fame there, get their name in the newspaper.
And that's basically what happened in this case.
But by choosing a jury, I felt comfortable that, you know,
I believe there were seven jurors in this particular case
(35:43):
in Morristown, New Jersey, and it was a case that should
have lasted about 12 hours.
Instead, it dragged out almost two weeks because of the
judge. He was he was obviously trying to set up situations
where, you know, the guy who is suing me would have the
(36:04):
best opportunity to win, and it was ridiculous.
I mean, he actually every day he did something, and at one
point my lawyer just got up and walked out of the
courtroom. That was so ridiculous and absurd for him.
And I was wondering what the world's going on here.
(36:25):
The judge said to me, Well, Mr.
Penders, where do we go from here?
And I said, I don't know your honor.
You're the judge here.
I don't know what I should do, but I'd be willing to
represent myself if I have to, because this case is, you
know, it's ridiculous.
(36:46):
It's absurd, and it's one of those frivolous lawsuits.
Bret Adams: So that's so you were able to say that. (36:50):
undefined
So you were able to stand up, which is which is fantastic
because most lawyers, frankly, are cowards.
It's unbelievable.
These the lawyers talk this big game out in the bar, into
your in the office and they come in and they got their tail
between their their their legs.
They're petrified.
I mean, it just I've seen it my entire career.
(37:13):
But but Tom, I mean, just logically, you know, this is a
contract case between you and this guy, you know, should
have taken the two witnesses should have been yourself and
him. Right.
And then and then and then have that jury judge that
credibility. So instead, this judge, you know, allowed this
case to go. I mean, I don't even think it should have been
12 hours. You should have had this case should have been
(37:35):
done in a day.
Tom Penders: Right, exactly. (37:36):
undefined
And boy, you know, you know, a little bit more about law
than I do.
But you know, it goes I didn't really know how they could
delay a trial.
I drive all the way, five hour drive.
I get to the courtroom with my wife, and all of a sudden,
(37:57):
there's nobody there.
It's an empty room and the court comes out and says, Well,
we're going to have a trial a month and a half from now
today. In the meantime, I'm there with my attorney.
There's no opposing anybody.
But the judge said, come back in a month and a half.
(38:19):
So I come back in a month and a half on that date.
Same thing. Empty courtroom.
No, no opposing lawyer.
The guy who sued me isn't there seven different times.
I had to do that and I was, you know?
My time is worth a lot of money.
And my name was worth a heck of a lot more than the time,
(38:42):
so, you know, I fought it and I won.
And it was like an hour and a half.
The jury came, came back and I didn't know whether because
it was in Morristown, New Jersey, but it was a unanimous
decision. And.
(39:03):
You know, I
Bret Adams: Want your concern was that you had it, you were you were not (39:04):
undefined
on the home court and you had that judge probably tainting
the jury. But this but showing up with the lawyer and
driving that way and then not having a hearing.
I mean, there's got to be some accountability.
I mean, here they're just there has to be.
And the problem is is the lawyers won't stand up and say
(39:25):
anything. I mean, because if you do now, you take some
risk. You know, if your guy stands up and said, Hey, this
is bullshit, why driving all the way over here, wasting my
time and you couldn't call me, you couldn't do anything to
to stop this?
And then you run the risk of of alienating them even even
further. But you know what?
(39:45):
That. Hey, Thomas, why I'm doing this podcast, man, I'm
trying to. I'm taking situations like yours and and trying
to make change with it. Because if you had a competent
judge and a non biased judge in your situation, probably
one you don't even go to trial and you get it resolved.
Tom Penders: But, well, brothers, you know, people can sue you for (40:03):
undefined
anything and the civil case, they can sue you at any time
for anything in our country instead of having it like it is
over in England, where the loser has to pay all the cost,
including the opposing lawyers.
(40:24):
But in our country, you know you have to pay your lawyer.
I don't know what goes on with the guy who sued you.
It was probably one of those.
The lawyer gets seventy five percent and the plaintiff, if
he wins, he gets twenty five percent.
But the loser, which would have been me.
(40:44):
If I lost those cases, I would have been probably held up
for at least a couple hundred thousand.
And all the expenses, so, you know, would have been a
year's salary out of my pocket to defend myself.
A lot of people don't know what goes on in this case, the
(41:06):
jury, you have to assume they know nothing about your
profession. So I had some coaching friends like Jerry
Tarkanian, and I'm sure Bob Huggins.
If I had asked him to do a deposition, he would.
But, you know, I had a talk with the main guy, he said to
(41:27):
that former assistant of mine in his deposition.
Like Eddie, I have an opportunity out here at Fresno.
We have a place open now.
Why don't you send me an email?
And, you know, I think you're the type of guy that could
(41:47):
fill that position.
And, you know, that was played in the courtroom.
And I think that had a big because people don't realize,
you know, the coaching business coaches are hired all the
time. And I don't want to mention any names of guys who've
been in litigation or have been thrown out of coaching for
(42:11):
five years because they broke some rules, whether their
assistant coaches or head coaches.
But people don't realize that when you're a coach, a
college coach in particular, you lose a lawsuit, you're
probably your career is probably ended.
As a college level, you might have to go.
(42:32):
You remember a guy, another coaching friend of mine, Jim
Bret Adams: O'brien, Jim, (42:36):
undefined
Tom Penders: Who won a major award. (42:37):
undefined
Well, yeah, yeah, he was.
He won a lawsuit at Ohio State.
He sued the athletic director in the school, but he
couldn't get a job anymore.
He won because he was literally a trackball.
That's right, because he won a lawsuit.
He was fired without cause.
(42:58):
And, you know, Jim was one of the best coaches in the
business, and he couldn't even get interviewed for college
jobs after that because it's a big
Bret Adams: Family to Tom. (43:08):
undefined
I mean, he was he was as good as human being as he was as a
competent coach.
Tom Penders: But yes, he was. And he he he, I think, now retired. (43:15):
undefined
But he gala's Division Three job in Boston, he wanted to
coach so badly that he said, you know, I'll coach Division
three. He would have even coached high school if that was
all that was available. He was a guy who could have coached
(43:35):
in the NBA. He had a great team.
Great, great person.
He was also a great basketball player at Boston College.
But you know, if you sue, if you sue, it's so public the
case becomes public.
So anyway, people don't realize that for us, the people
(43:58):
outside.
Bret Adams: That's why I wanted you on here. (43:58):
undefined
I wanted, I wanted.
I wanted to.
People to hear your story, because one of the things that
we're really advocating is especially in Ohio, I mean, you
want to eliminate half the lawyers is that you require
every case like you're in your cases are perfect examples
is that you're required to go to a mediation before you
(44:21):
file a lawsuit you want to eliminate.
Half the lawsuits in the state of Ohio is you require
mediation with a competent mediator, so you don't you don't
get it in some jackasses hands that that's looking in your
case to get his name associated with, you know, I'm suing
the, you know, the coach at Texas and and you're a bigger
(44:41):
target. I mean, as a celebrity, you're a bigger you're a
bigger target anyway.
But but man, I think we made a little education here, Tom,
with your story and and I really appreciate you doing this
and and catching up on this because I think it's a these
these cases are indicative of why we need to change
litigation and limit the role of lawyers in these kind of
(45:05):
cases. And I think we'll be much better off as a society,
but really appreciate you taking the time.
Is it 85 or 90 in your South Beach home right now?
Tom Penders: Well, I'm very happy that I bought a condo down in Florida (45:15):
undefined
at age 20.
I forgot how old I was, but it was about two thousand one
twenty one years ago.
You know, I had back surgery, so it's a nice place to
rehab. Nice, warm,
Bret Adams: But it's probably not bet it's probably not gone up in value (45:35):
undefined
in the last couple of years, either, has it?
Tom Penders: No, I will. (45:41):
undefined
I'll never sell it. My wife and I love it here.
And we also have a home up in Rhode Island.
But you know, as you get older, you like the warm weather
more and more. And I always did.
And you know, we we sit here and watch the cruise ships go
in and out. We've got a nice beach, which is an easy walk
(46:04):
from where we are and it's it's a great city.
Oh, I love it.
Bret Adams: I love it down there. (46:09):
undefined
We got we got two or three inches of snow come tonight.
So appreciate that.
Appreciate that
Tom Penders: Visual. It's 82 degrees there, right? (46:15):
undefined
Eighty two degrees.
Yeah, I work for the chamber, yeah, you do.
Here is a side.
Bret Adams: Thank you. Hey, thanks for coming on, buddy. (46:25):
undefined
I really appreciate it.
Tom Penders: My pleasure. (46:28):
undefined
Bret Adams: Thank you. Tom Penders, Great guy. (46:30):
undefined
Great story. I wanted Tom on here to talk about his
litigation experiences.
We're going to have a lot of conversations moving forward
about bad civil litigation, bad plaintiffs lawyers, bad
defense lawyers and bad, incompetent judges that I mean,
who in the world what?
What competent judge would allow a dispute between two
(46:54):
individuals take two weeks of time, extended this.
I have pretrial and you don't show up for.
I mean, it's just it's outrageous.
But until until lawyers have the balls to stand up and say,
I just cost him my client money, I can't just not show up.
I mean, you can't just have us drive five hours and not
(47:16):
show up for a pretrial or whatever type of hearing it is.
We need competent judges that are going to take control of
that situation and not and not let it happen.
And the other element that I wanted to to show was Tom
Penders made a lot of money coaching basketball and and he
could afford.
He could absolutely afford to defend these cases.
(47:37):
Take it to the I mean, even if he owed the money, he could
afford to pay it. And most people can't.
They just can't do that.
But you know, we're going to harp on this for as long as as
I'm able to do this podcast.
But but if we can get legislatures to take lawyers out of
the process initially and not end up in a courtroom or
somebody's shotgun in a lawsuit against somebody else, if
(47:59):
we have what I've talked about as a mandatory mediation
before you pay a filing fee to file a lawsuit will
eliminate half the civil litigation in the state of Ohio,
and we'll limit half and half of them.
But my goal is to eliminate many lawyers as I can.
So anyway, thank you for tuning in.
That is my rant of the day, and we'll talk to you next
(48:22):
time.
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