August 1, 2023 • 36 mins
Have you ever felt like you are constantly running on fumes, with no time or energy for yourself? Tali Kauflin, the Executive Director of Accounts and Services for Clever, joins us to shed light on this critical issue and guide us on the path to creating the much-needed margin in our lives. She combines her professional expertise with personal experiences as a leader, a pastor's wife, and a mother of five to give us practical advice on how to identify and respond to signs of a lack of margin.
Tali's passion for the concept of margin is rooted in her own journey of surviving intense life seasons. She emphasizes the importance of self-care and reflection, revealing how these practices can help us view our limits not as a hindrance, but as a gift. By sharing her story of thriving in leadership despite numerous challenges, Tali encourages us to create our own margin, even when life seems overwhelmingly full.
As leaders, we often feel the need to do everything ourselves. But Tali encourages us to empower our teams, cultivate trust and responsibility, and identify tasks that only we can do. This intentional positioning allows us to create the necessary margin in our roles. If you're feeling overwhelmed, Tali's insightful conversation is a must-listen. She offers an encouraging word to other leaders to seek assistance when needed and shares how Clever's services can aid in this journey. Let's take this opportunity to learn from Tali and start creating the margin we need in our lives today!
About Clever:
Busy leaders, meet Clever—a game-changing agency for all your marketing, creative, and communication needs. Their fractional workforce offers expertise as well as on-demand and ongoing project support for all of your graphic design, marketing, website, and production needs. We trust Clever with our website and they exceeded our expectations and feel like an extension of our team. With flexible 30-day contracts and exceptional results, Clever delivers success without the high cost of full-time hires.
Embrace more margin and less chaos—hire Clever today at weareclever.com or call or text 404-585-1953.
Culture Conference 2023
Culture Conference is back and registration is now open. Mark your calendar for August 10th and register you, your team, every leader you know to join us.
Culture Conference is a free digital conference designed to help you build thriving teams, cultivate inspiring workplaces, and achieve your mission. We have an amazing speaker line up, including Pat Gelsinger, CEO of Intel; Valorie Burton, Life Strategist and Bestselling Author, Josh Howerton, Senior Pastor of Lakepointe Church and New York Times bestselling author Jon Acuff - just to name a few!
Join us for a one-day digital conference where you’ll hear from today’s top leaders about how you can build a thriving team, cultivate an inspiring workplace, and achieve your mission.
Register for free to view the live-streamed event, or upgrade to the Culture Conference All-Access Pass.
Register at cultureconference.org
We need your help to get the LeadCulture podcasts in front of more leaders! There are three simple things you can do that truly help us:
- Review us on Apple podcasts
- Subscribe - we’re available wherever you listen to podcasts.
- Share - let your friends know about the podcast by sharing your favorite episode on social media!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jenni Catron (00:10):
Hey everyone, I'm your host, Jenni Catron, and
this is the Lead Culture Podcast, where I coach you to lead
yourself well so you can leadothers better.
My team and I at 4SightGroupGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:31):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
Well, guys, we are just daysaway from Culture Conference and
we are so excited.
Here behind the scenes we aredoing all the things to be ready
(00:54):
for you to join us for CultureConference on August 10th.
Now I hope those of you who areregular listeners, you're like
Jen we've already registered.
We got that taken care of.
But if you're new or if you'vejust been slackened a little bit
and you haven't quite gone toget registered, go to
cultureconference.
org and make sure you areregistered.
(01:15):
Culture Conference is a freedigital conference designed to
help you build thriving teams,cultivate inspiring workplaces
and achieve your mission.
Now, this year, as every year,we have an amazing speaker
lineup.
We're going to hear from PatGelsinger, the CEO of Intel,
Valerie Burton, a lifestrategist and bestselling
(01:38):
author, Josh Howerton, thesenior pastor of Lake Point
Church, New York Timesbestselling author John Acuff,
my great friend Annie Downs, andso many more.
So, cultureconference.
org, that's where you need to go.
Get registered because it'sfree to you, because of amazing
(01:59):
sponsors like our friends atClever.
And so today you're going tohear from Tali , who is the
executive director of Accountsand Services for Clever.
Now, before I tell you aboutTali, I want to tell you about
Clever.
Clever is designed for busyleaders.
They are a game-changing agencyfor all your marketing,
(02:20):
creative and communication needs.
Their fractional workforceoffers expertise as well as
on-demand and ongoing projectsupport for all of your graphic
design, marketing, website andproduction needs.
Now we have worked with Cleverfor, I think, going on three
years, and they help us with allof our website stuff.
(02:41):
They help us with all of ourproduction stuff, including
producing culture conference,and so they really do feel like
an extension of our team.
And with flexible 30-daycontracts and exceptional
results, Clever delivers successwithout the high cost of
full-time hires.
And so, guys, I want toencourage you to go check out
(03:04):
Clever.
Embrace more margin and lesschaos by reaching out to Clever
at WeAreClever.
com, or you can call or text thenumber 404-585-1953.
So go to WeAreClever.
com or call or text 404-585-1953.
(03:27):
All right, well, you are goingto hear from Tali, who is the
executive director at Clever,and we have just a phenomenal
conversation about this idea ofmargin, about the importance of
margin and how to create margin.
Now, in addition to her roleoverseeing a team of 70 at
Clever, Tali is a pastor's wife.
(03:48):
She is a mom of five kids,she's a church planter, a Bible
teacher, like she lives a verybusy and full life.
She also is going to be one ofour speakers for Culture
Conference.
So today you get just a littlesneak peek at this topic of
margin that she's going to betalking about, and so I love
this conversation with Tali.
(04:08):
She digs into some of theindicators that we're lacking
margin, like what does it looklike when we're lacking margin?
We probably could rattle thingsoff right, because all of us
need more margin in our lives,but she gives us a little more
of a hint of what are some ofthose indicators that let us
know we're lacking margin.
She talks about moving fromreactive to intentional.
(04:31):
A lot of times we've talked onthe podcast about moving from
reactive to proactive.
I love how she says move fromreactive to intentional.
We talk about seeing our limitsas a gift.
That one, I'll step on sometoes a bit.
And then this was reallyfascinating.
She talks about what humilityhas to do with the concept of
(04:54):
margin.
So, guys, here is myconversation with Tali .
Well, Tali, so fun to have youon the podcast.
Thanks for joining me today.
Tali Kauflin (05:11):
Thanks for having me.
Jenni Catron (05:13):
Well and I have to kick off this episode by saying
thank you, and Clever, forsponsoring Culture Conference.
So this episode is going to airright before a culture
conference starts, so the timingis perfect and we're really
grateful that you guys not onlysponsor the event but also
produce the event.
So thanks for that.
(05:34):
We're excited about it.
Tali Kauflin (05:36):
Oh, you're so welcome.
We really believe in whatculture conference does and are
excited to just be a sponsor anda partner in this exciting
conference coming up.
Really soon.
Jenni Catron (05:45):
I know it's pretty exciting, well, and you guys
have been a part of it from thebeginning with us, and so it's
fun to have you as a sponsoragain and get to dive into this
world together.
But I want to dig into yourworld a little bit, your life as
a leader, learn a little bitmore about who you are, and one
of the topics that you're goingto be speaking on this in
(06:07):
culture conference and I thoughtyou know what we need to talk
about this on the podcast,because I think this idea of
creating margin and theimportance of margin is a
conversation I have with leadersall the time.
They're just wrestling with the.
There's not enough hours in theday.
How do I juggle life and allthe things?
(06:27):
But take us back a little bitand give us a little bit of your
story and how margin becamesuch a passion point for you,
because the little bit we'vediscussed, it's like there's
some history behind why thisbecame a passion point for you.
Yeah, for sure?
Tali Kauflin (06:42):
Well, I'll start by saying I'm a mom of five and
so automatically you don't havemuch margin, so that just comes
par for the course.
But I've been married to apastor for 20 years and we've
been in ministry for 20 yearsand have just experienced season
after season where there's morework than there is time to
(07:03):
accomplish it all.
And in the middle of all of thework, we planted a church,
which means you're wearingmultiple hats and you're doing
multiple roles.
We've had a child who has hadleukemia two times, and so not
only are you planting a church,doing ministry life, trying to
take care of your kids, but thenyou're also living in a
(07:24):
hospital and walking through andnavigating suffering, and that
just changes everything.
So thankfully he's doing great.
He has been off treatment forthree years now and in remission
.
But in the middle of all ofthat you find yourself surviving
and not thriving.
And you realize later on, whenyou're in these seasons of
(07:46):
intensity, it could be sickness,it could be work, it could be
emotional, mental there's somany things that cause seasons
of intensity you get to theother side of it and you realize
we're still treading water,we're still functioning as a
survivor and not as someone whois able to thrive.
And my husband and I looked ateach other.
(08:07):
We were like, okay, somethinghas to change.
So we did some personalinventory of just our time.
We realized that a lot of ourtime was not being used well.
We were doing a lot of things,but not always the most
impactful things or the mostimportant things, and we were so
reactive all the time we justfelt like we were moving from
(08:30):
crisis to crisis or problem toproblem, and then collapsing
into bed at the end of the dayand hoping that the next day we
could pull ourselves up from apillow and face the day.
So again, yeah, I do it allagain, so, yeah.
So, through many iterations ofdifficulty, many iterations of
just coming very close toburnout, and many iterations of
(08:54):
like, wow, things are goingreally well, we had to discern
what works for us.
So in the middle of all that,then you went out of career and
leadership roles and leadingothers not just my five humans
that I'm responsible for they'relive and livelihood, but the
(09:16):
humans that I'm responsible forat my job and realize you know
what?
There's gotta be a better way,we can do better here.
So that was kind of thebeginnings of a big shift for me
.
Jenni Catron (09:28):
Can you give us a couple of examples of the kind
of things I think like asleaders here, that they're like
oh yes, I can resonate with thatand, granted, you know, you've
had just a full plate it soundslike for most of your adult life
, and then, of course, with yourson's health, I mean that's a
(09:49):
whole other level of disruption.
That is like you know, it's awhole other thing, but I bet,
not normal.
Then we don't want that to bethe normal for anyone.
But I think there's a lot ofleaders who can resonate with
that idea of I feel like I'mreacting all the time Like you
(10:09):
know, just like because I do.
I think you get in some ofthose seasons where you're just
having to function so you knowrapidly to things that then that
becomes your normal.
So can you give us a couple ofexamples of the kind of things
where you realized, oh, we'renot, we need to change this.
This is not spending our timewisely here.
(10:31):
What were some of those?
Maybe a couple of practicalthings that you guys said.
Tali Kauflin (10:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean it could be sosimple as going from meeting to
meeting to meeting, to phonecall, to email to.
I mean you're just literallymoving from thing to thing to
thing and there's no pause forreflection, there's no pause for
application, there's just nopause.
Another huge indicator for mewas the things that I knew that
(10:59):
would give me health physicallyand mentally and emotionally.
I always ended up saying no toor just didn't have enough time
for.
So, for example, I have on mycalendar every day I block off
an hour of time to take a walk,and every day I have to make a
choice, Am I going to take thatwalk?
And I'm telling you, Jenni, alot of days I don't.
(11:19):
And I let the reactivity ofbusyness and the demands of work
Basically, I forego theinterests and the requirements
for a healthy me.
I just put them aside becauseI'm so busy.
And another big indicator Inoticed was that I just wasn't
emotionally available to thepeople that I love the most,
(11:40):
like, for example, my husband.
Would come home from work, Iwould come home from work and
there was nothing left to givethe other person.
There's just nothing.
I missed important dates.
I can't tell you the amount ofbirthday invitations that I
missed in my personal emailbecause I was so zeroed in on my
work email and my work lifethat I just dropped so many
(12:01):
balls in the things that, likethese, are the memory makers
right here.
Like I do, value my career it'svery important to me, but, like
these other things that I wassacrificing the quality time,
the emotional space andbandwidth being present, they
just got pushed aside and Iconvinced myself that I could
muscle through it and pushthrough it.
(12:26):
I had this realization that noneof us like limits.
Limits are culturally.
Limits are things to be broken,not things to embrace.
Limits are things that are nota good thing, but I've learned
through just studying scriptureand living enough life that
(12:48):
limits are actually a gift.
They're like the guardrails onthe highway.
Without guardrails on thehighway, we're going to veer off
that highway eventually andtake a turn too hard and do
something disastrous.
But those guardrails, thoselimits, tell us that there is an
end and a beginning to wheresafety on the road exists and we
can embrace them, or we cankeep, try to crash into them and
(13:10):
damage ourselves in the process, or we can say no.
These limits are actuallyreally good things, and not just
the guardrails.
The lines on the road keep mefrom crashing into the guardrail
, so there's a other limit andanother boundary.
That's actually really good.
So I mean, that's what marginessentially is.
It's the space between our loadand our limit.
(13:31):
It's that, it's that bufferingspace that allows us to safely
traverse this life.
And we need to take stock ofwhat those lines are, because if
we just press through them, youknow, in an attempt to break
through our limits, often thoselimits break us before we break
(13:52):
through them, and that'sdangerous.
Jenni Catron (13:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's super helpful.
I love that the margin is reallythe space between our load and
our limits, and just the visualof that is so incredibly helpful
Because, like, my mind wasgoing to the like see myself in
a car just repeatedly bumpinginto the like, you know, like if
(14:15):
you saw me do that driving downthe road, you would think the
girl is like something is wrong,something is like I'm curiously
wrong with her.
But you think about how often wedo that, right, you know, just
in our lives, and I I'm curiousfor you, but I know for me that
I always feel like I should beable to do just a bit more, or I
(14:38):
should be able to respond tothat thing.
Or you know and the listenersof the podcast know me well
enough to know that you know I'ma Enneagram three achiever,
like you know.
So it's like I never think thatI have limits on my capacity
until I come crashing into it.
So I would love to hear how?
(14:58):
How did you redefine limitswhen you you know, as you're
recognizing, okay, we've got to,we've got to readjust some
things to be able to thrive morein life and leadership?
How did you define those limits?
What was the starting point foryou guys.
Tali Kauflin (15:14):
Yeah, and I think I completely resonate with what
you just said.
There's oh, I can always domore, I'm a very high capacity
person and I'll push myself veryhard, and I I think the
realization was that that is nota long play, that's a short
play.
Yeah, Mine.
And so if I want to last foryears in this race, then I need
(15:35):
to have a much longer view thanI currently have.
And so it became a mathequation in a lot of ways for
every yes that I say, it's a noto something else, and I needed
to decide what's the best yes,and what's the right no.
And honestly, for me it startedwith humility.
I had to realize that I can'tdo everything, and nor should I
(15:56):
try, and that's hard.
That's hard for a driven person, and I think it's hard for a
leader, because innately, you'reborn to achieve, you're born to
climb, you're born to move theball down the field.
That's exciting, that's thethrill.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
I just think we need to have alonger view in considering not
(16:17):
just ourselves with that, butthe people that we're leaving a
legacy for, and take stock ofthe reality that are we leading
leaving collateral damage in ourwake, or are we leading leaving
thriving culture in our wake?
And so, for me, one of thefirst things, one of the first
steps Well, I'm gonna stoptalking.
(16:37):
We'll erase that.
You can ask any questions.
Jenni Catron (16:41):
That's good.
That's good.
No, I love that so much thatyou said it started with
humility.
Such a big statement rightthere, right Of like recognizing
that we are not superheroes,like we are not superhuman, that
I can't do everything, and like.
I love what you said there, too, about like having that longer
(17:02):
view is so powerful, so you havea little acronym to help
leaders find margin.
Would you tell us about that?
Tali Kauflin (17:10):
Love to.
So, after reading a lot ofbooks and a lot of thinking, I
am a very visual person, so Ilove rhyming phrases.
I love acronyms.
They just help me keep myvision clear of where I'm headed
.
So this acronym is deep and theletters stand for do what only
you can do, and then equip yourleaders and power your leaders
(17:33):
and position yourself out oftheir way.
Yeah, that's a tough one.
None of this is easy, but Ifound it to be really impactful
and successful in creating aculture of margin for myself and
for my teams.
Jenni Catron (17:51):
So okay, talk about each of those a bit more
for us.
So it's deep.
Do what only you can do equipyour people and power your
leaders and position yourselfout of the way.
So give us a little moreinsight on those.
Coach us through them.
If you were coaching all theleaders listening, which you are
, how would you give us a littleinsight in each of those?
Tali Kauflin (18:14):
Yeah.
So, like we said before, doingwhat only you can do starts with
that position of humility.
You could do everything,especially if you are the
captain of the ship, because youprobably are familiar enough
with everything that you coulddo it.
But again, it starts with thathumility position.
You really shouldn't be doingeverything and probably you're
(18:35):
not the best at doing everything.
So the first step for do for meis taking stock of everything
that my day and my week requiresof me.
And so how I do that is I startby writing everything I want to
do, everything I have to do andeverything I get to do, kind of
compile a list and just reflecton all of this thing.
(18:55):
I think the shift here is youhave to go from being reactive
to intentional, and unless youare aware of all the things that
are laying before you, youcannot be intentional.
You will only ever be reactive.
And so, starting with becomingaware of what you need to do,
you look at that list and youseparate it out into two things
the things that, literally, youare the only person in your
(19:17):
organization can do.
You are the only person who cando that thing.
You set that list aside.
Everything else can go tosomeone else, your massive list
should have shunned considerably.
Hopefully, yeah.
And so then, with your list ofthings only you can do, or the
things that you want to do, youknow you prioritize that by
(19:38):
impact, by importance, bypriority.
You look at the time, which isthe limitations that every
single human on this earth hasonly 24 hours in a day, 52 weeks
in a year.
We all have this good limit.
How does that work?
So if you wake up at this time,can you actually do all these
things in this day?
(19:58):
It's a sobering exercise, butit's an important one to know
the difference between what youcan do and what you actually
don't need to do, and so youbegin to consider who can I give
these things to?
There are a lot of tasks thatonly you can do, like paying
some of your bills because ofpasswords and things like that.
(20:20):
Those are simply fixed byautomation, and so finding
someone who can help point youin the right direction for tools
to automate your calendar soyou're not emailing back and
forth with people to schedulesomething, I mean, that saves so
much time.
There's such small littletricks we can do there, but
really recognizing like this isthe narrow lane of things that
(20:42):
require my touch.
That's good and that's how thatstarts.
What's that?
Yeah, the next one is equippingyour team Truly.
I think most leaders know thatall of our teams always need
ongoing opportunities to grow intheir skill sets, grow in their
understanding.
This is an investment that we,as leaders, get to make Now.
(21:05):
If we're handing off, if we'redelegating from our list of
things, that often requires aninvestment of our time into our
people so that they can do well,we need to be careful that
we're not hoarding knowledge forourselves.
We really do want to equip themwith that knowledge in mind.
(21:25):
That equipping others saves youtime to do what only you can do
yeah.
Then the next step is empowering.
This is one that I think can bethe hardest for some leaders,
because it's rooted in trust.
That's big, yeah.
You have to trust your peopleand they have to know that you
trust them.
If we say we trust our leadersand we withhold trust and
(21:49):
micromanage them, we are settingour team up for failure out the
gate.
They will never take ownership.
Truly, empowering your leadersmeans that they own it, because
with ownership comesresponsibility and from
responsibility comesaccountability.
That is how the ball gets, notjust moved meter by meter, but
(22:11):
the ball gets moved down thefield yard by yard in bigger
gaps.
It's so important to choose theright people.
It's okay if we don't choosethe right people.
Sometimes we learn.
This is all a learning exercise, in my opinion.
I don't think we always make theright choices out the gate, but
the reality is empoweredleaders are engaged with their
(22:35):
work.
They contribute their best.
They want to share their ideas.
When we are micromanaging andwhen we are withholding trust,
they're not going to share theirideas.
They're not going to feel likethey can take risk themselves,
something that I've done atClever.
(22:57):
That's been such a joy to do,as I've learned who my people
are.
Which is part of choosing theright people is by seeing them,
understanding them, listening tothem.
I've just communicated to themover and over.
I trust you for this.
I know you can do this and Iknow you'll come to me when you
feel like you can't.
(23:17):
That has just proven to fostersuch a healthy working
relationship between us.
I don't feel this weight tocome in and really be in the
weeds of something I don't needto be in the weeds on.
It's very freeing for me as theleader.
It's very empowering for them,as the direct reports and other
(23:38):
leaders in the company, to justknow that they have space to
thrive.
Which leads me to the last point, which is to position yourself
out of the way, this one.
Once you've learned to trustyour leaders, it shouldn't be
super hard, but goodness, itsure can be.
Get out of the way.
It's hard.
You don't want to miss theexciting wins.
(24:00):
You want to be part of them.
Yeah, that's an owner's mindset.
This is your baby.
Of course you want to be inthere with the wins.
You also don't want thefailures to go on failing too
long.
You want to swoop in there andfix that.
Turn the ship.
Getting out of the way meanssometimes you're out of the way
(24:22):
of the wins and you're out ofthe ways of the losses while
they get worked out with yourteam, trusting that they'll
bring you in when they need you.
Jenni Catron (24:32):
When they need you .
Yeah, that's big.
As you said that, I wasthinking about a team that I was
working with.
One of the criticisms that theteam had of their leader as
we're just kind oftroubleshooting the dynamics and
the culture and where theyneeded support it was that they
felt like their leader alwaysre-inserted in the wins.
(24:55):
They felt like that leaderstole the wins from them Again.
I know that wasn't the leader'sintention.
Yeah, I think even the teamknew that that leader's
intention but I think theydidn't position themselves out
of the way.
I think in a heart ofcelebrating with the team, they
actually kind of took the winaway in some way.
(25:18):
Isn't that what you're speakingto?
Tali Kauflin (25:20):
For sure.
I mean we want to acknowledgetheir efforts and their
ownership.
If we're taking ownership ofwhat they have done, then we're
robbing them of this.
I mean, we all know howimportant it is when we have
worked super hard on somethingand to see it cross the finish
line not just cross the finishline, but cross the finish line
with a banner success.
(25:40):
If someone else comes in andusurps some of the goodness of
that, that's hard and it's apride thing.
It's like celebrate whatsomeone has done because you see
them, because you want to keepa value of them.
Nothing devalues someone otherthan taking credit for something
(26:01):
that they've done that you hadno knowledge, expertise or input
in.
We don't need, as leaders, wereally don't need to have our
fingerprints on every singlething.
That's right, yeah.
Jenni Catron (26:13):
Ultimately it starts to get fun when you
realize you didn't and there wasstill this major win in the
organization and you're like andI can't take any credit Like
it's kind of a weird moment as aleader when you see that happen
and you're like that wasamazing.
I didn't really do anythingother than set my team up and if
(26:37):
you can find the joy in thatand celebrate that, I mean it's
such a culture builder thatpeople really feel I love.
Where you talked about earlier,like that ownership leads to
responsibility, which leads toaccountability.
Like that's such a powerfulequation that we don't realize
that a big part of that is by usempowering and getting out of
(27:01):
the way.
Tali Kauflin (27:03):
Like just get out of the way.
Truly, I think the older I get,the more I wanna celebrate the
crowns on other people's headsthat end like, oh, you're doing
so great here.
Like, celebrate you, wonderful,I'm so thankful for you, versus
coveting it for myself.
With maturity, with leading for20 years, comes this
(27:25):
perspective of this desire forshared celebration, and that's
such a like who wants tocelebrate alone?
That's such a lonely space.
It's so much more fun andenjoyable.
And then also, when you get outof the way, you realize that
your reach, the ripples of it,are much wider and further than
if you're like lasering in onperson, by person, by person.
(27:46):
You can have such a biggerimpact.
The ripple just goes so muchfurther when you're not there to
disrupt it constantly.
You know, yeah, that's supergood.
Jenni Catron (27:55):
You too.
Yeah, Really good, Tali.
Okay.
So lots of leaders listeninghere are going yes, I recognize
I need to be more intentionalabout this.
I need to be thoughtful aboutmargin.
How would you encourage them tostart, Like, based upon what
you've shared today, they'rerecognizing.
You know what?
I'm in that reaction mode allthe time.
(28:16):
Or I really need to be moreintentional about creating the
space, creating the margin,empowering my team, et cetera.
How would you encourage them toget started?
Tali Kauflin (28:26):
Well, you know, in a lot of ways it starts with
that acknowledging I'm spinningplates, I'm treading water and
I'm doing too much.
So that acknowledgement thatself-awareness is key number one
.
You have to start there.
And then I think, oftentimes,instead of trying to muscle
through yet one more thingbecause here's what can come
(28:46):
from listening to talk like thisNow I have one more thing I
need to do.
I have one more step-by-stepprogram to run through and, you
know, gonna have success.
I think the two things areself-awareness, that I need help
To deciding if this is thething that you need, the most
important thing, because forsome people it could just be you
(29:07):
need more rest, like you don'tneed another step-by-step thing,
you just need to learn how torest so that.
And then for other people, youmight just need help, like you
just might not be able to dothis by yourself, and that's
okay.
I think the best leaders are theones that surround themselves
with experts.
They surround themselves withpeople who are better than them
at a myriad of things, and soknowing when to ask for help,
(29:32):
knowing who to ask for help,that's good.
That would be the next thing.
And I think, the last thing andI was thinking about this
recently.
I'm trying to reintegratehealthy habits into my life.
Again, like I said at thebeginning, even in my own life,
being aware of margin, beingdeeply convinced of its
importance, I don't take the runthat I say that I'm gonna take
every day, and so, in order toreintegrate healthy habits into
(29:55):
my own life, it requiresdiscipline.
Yeah, anything in our lifethat's gonna have lasting impact
requires self-discipline and asleaders, we are familiar with
that.
We know that Sometimes we justneed someone to be come
alongside us and be like youjust need a little bit more
discipline.
You're doing too much.
Just be more disciplined in afew things, right?
So those would be the threethings that come to mind.
Jenni Catron (30:18):
Yeah, that's super helpful, telly.
I love that so much.
I wanna give you a minutebecause one of the things that I
think is part of the power ofClever, the company that you
work for, is that in many waysyou kind of help organizations
create some margin by the waythat you serve and partner with
other organizations.
(30:38):
So I'd love for you to take aminute and just tell our
listeners about Clever and whatyou guys do and how you serve
other leaders.
Tali Kauflin (30:45):
Absolutely I would love to.
I love working for Clever andthis is one of the reasons why
we pride ourselves on beingmargin makers.
We love nothing more than whensomeone comes to us and says I
need help and we're like come on, let's come alongside you.
We come alongside all kinds ofleaders and all kinds of
(31:06):
industries to really just createspace for them to do what only
they can do.
So let's say we have a churchleader, a pastor, coming to us
and they have a website thatthey need to be rebuilt, or they
don't have time to do theirSunday graphics, or they wanna
do an end of year givingcampaign and this is a mountain
to them.
They know the church needsthese things, they know they
(31:26):
wanna accomplish these things.
They just don't have the staff.
They have a staff that'sspinning plates.
They have a staff that'swearing 20 different hats.
We can come in and we can sayyou know what, pastor?
We can take that off your plate.
We can't hug your members, wecan't preach your sermons, we
can't be at those membersmeetings, but we sure can take
your sermon series off of yourplate.
(31:47):
We sure can design your end ofyear giving campaign in a way
that just is surprising anddelighting and beautiful and
creative, because lack of marginmeans you have no room for
creativity.
So we're able to come alongsidepeople who are basically burned
out and produce creativesolutions for them.
You know we can.
(32:08):
We, we listen to the problemsthat are stated and we help you
whittle down the problems thatactually need to be solved.
Oftentimes we come in and we'relike I think I need this.
I think I need that.
This is the problem that needsto be solved.
Our team at Clevers are reallygreat at hearing all of your
concerns and coming back to youwith a 90-day plan of success of
you.
Know what I heard, what yousaid and here's how we're going
(32:30):
to journey there with youtogether.
Then you just show up to aweekly meeting and we get to
show you all the things thatwe've done to lighten your load.
I think that Clever has thisreally unique role of getting to
come alongside and just carrythe load.
It's like doing a three-leggedrace.
We get to come alongside of youfor as long as you want us.
(32:50):
We're going to be there andwe're going to help you cross
the finish line, arm in arm sideby side.
Jenni Catron (32:56):
That's so good.
We partnered with you guys forI think it's going on three
years now A lot of the thingsthat, first of all, I just don't
even know how to do, but,secondly, you don't need to be
doing, especially on thecreative side with our website
and all of our production needsand things like that.
The stuff that is not core tothe work that I do but is
(33:17):
essential for us.
Being able to share what we do,I feel like, is where you guys
have been such a great partnerwith us.
Thank you for that.
How do we learn more aboutClever?
Where do we go for that?
Tali Kauflin (33:28):
Oh, great, well, you can certainly go to
weareclever.
com.
That is our website.
You can find us on Facebook andInstagram and LinkedIn.
We're all over the place.
We are on the socials.
Jenni Catron (33:40):
Perfect, perfect.
We'll link to that in the shownotes Weareclever.
com, which is fabulous.
Tali Kauflin (33:48):
Well, we try to be , we try to be we are clever.
Jenni Catron (33:52):
I love it.
Tal9i, this was so helpful.
Thank you for just sharing yourinsight and wisdom.
Thank you for your journey as aleader that forced you to
reckon with some of thesedynamics and not you know that
In many cases often lead leadersto burnout.
And what I heard you saying islike you got really intentional
(34:13):
to say, even with all of thecraziness of life, even with all
the responsibilities we hadgoing on, we you and your
husband in particular wereintentional to say we've got to
figure out how to operate in ahealthier way and be smart about
margin.
So thanks for sharing that withus today, thanks for leading
well and we're grateful for yourinfluence in our world today.
Tali Kauflin (34:36):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Jenni Catron (34:38):
All right, gang.
I hope that got you thinking.
I think that deep acronym is soincredibly powerful Do what
only you can do, equip your teamand power your leaders and
position yourself out of the way.
So that's going to get youthinking and I hope you'll take
some action on that.
You know every one of us needsmore margin, and this is one of
(35:00):
those things that, at everyseason of leadership, is
requiring a little somethingdifferent from you, and so
you're constantly having tocreate more margin so that you
can do those things that onlyyou can do.
And what only you can do isconstantly shifting, and so I
think this is just a really good, healthy inventory to say where
(35:21):
do I need to create more marginso that I can lead myself well,
so I can lead others better?
So let me know what you thoughtof this week's episode.
Send us an email at podcast atget4sight.
com, just reach out to us on allthe social channels Get4sight,
or you can find me atJenniCatron, and then let us
(35:42):
know what we can do to serve youbetter.
Give us feedback on the episode, give us that review, slap some
stars on it, and then I wouldlove it if you would share this
episode with another leader,maybe somebody that you know is
struggling with time or withmargin and just share it with
them and encourage them tolisten in.
(36:03):
And then, if we can be aresource in any other way, I
wanna encourage you to go togetforsightcom that's G-E-T, the
number four, s-i-g-h-t dot comand check out the different
things that we're doing there.
We're actually doing a fewlittle upgrades to the website,
so we're trying to get clearerabout what we do and how we do
(36:24):
it, so we can serve you betterin all things leadership and
culture.
And if you haven't done it yet,go to cultureconference.
org.
Make sure you're registered andI will see you next week.
Hey everyone, I'm your host, Jenni Catron, and
this is the Lead Culture Podcast, where I coach you to lead
yourself well so you can leadothers better.
My team and I at 4SightGroupGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:31):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
Well, guys, we are just daysaway from Culture Conference and
we are so excited.
Here behind the scenes we aredoing all the things to be ready
(00:54):
for you to join us for CultureConference on August 10th.
Now I hope those of you who areregular listeners, you're like
Jen we've already registered.
We got that taken care of.
But if you're new or if you'vejust been slackened a little bit
and you haven't quite gone toget registered, go to
cultureconference.
org and make sure you areregistered.
(01:15):
Culture Conference is a freedigital conference designed to
help you build thriving teams,cultivate inspiring workplaces
and achieve your mission.
Now, this year, as every year,we have an amazing speaker
lineup.
We're going to hear from PatGelsinger, the CEO of Intel,
Valerie Burton, a lifestrategist and bestselling
(01:38):
author, Josh Howerton, thesenior pastor of Lake Point
Church, New York Timesbestselling author John Acuff,
my great friend Annie Downs, andso many more.
So, cultureconference.
org, that's where you need to go.
Get registered because it'sfree to you, because of amazing
(01:59):
sponsors like our friends atClever.
And so today you're going tohear from Tali , who is the
executive director of Accountsand Services for Clever.
Now, before I tell you aboutTali, I want to tell you about
Clever.
Clever is designed for busyleaders.
They are a game-changing agencyfor all your marketing,
(02:20):
creative and communication needs.
Their fractional workforceoffers expertise as well as
on-demand and ongoing projectsupport for all of your graphic
design, marketing, website andproduction needs.
Now we have worked with Cleverfor, I think, going on three
years, and they help us with allof our website stuff.
(02:41):
They help us with all of ourproduction stuff, including
producing culture conference,and so they really do feel like
an extension of our team.
And with flexible 30-daycontracts and exceptional
results, Clever delivers successwithout the high cost of
full-time hires.
And so, guys, I want toencourage you to go check out
(03:04):
Clever.
Embrace more margin and lesschaos by reaching out to Clever
at WeAreClever.
com, or you can call or text thenumber 404-585-1953.
So go to WeAreClever.
com or call or text 404-585-1953.
(03:27):
All right, well, you are goingto hear from Tali, who is the
executive director at Clever,and we have just a phenomenal
conversation about this idea ofmargin, about the importance of
margin and how to create margin.
Now, in addition to her roleoverseeing a team of 70 at
Clever, Tali is a pastor's wife.
(03:48):
She is a mom of five kids,she's a church planter, a Bible
teacher, like she lives a verybusy and full life.
She also is going to be one ofour speakers for Culture
Conference.
So today you get just a littlesneak peek at this topic of
margin that she's going to betalking about, and so I love
this conversation with Tali.
(04:08):
She digs into some of theindicators that we're lacking
margin, like what does it looklike when we're lacking margin?
We probably could rattle thingsoff right, because all of us
need more margin in our lives,but she gives us a little more
of a hint of what are some ofthose indicators that let us
know we're lacking margin.
She talks about moving fromreactive to intentional.
(04:31):
A lot of times we've talked onthe podcast about moving from
reactive to proactive.
I love how she says move fromreactive to intentional.
We talk about seeing our limitsas a gift.
That one, I'll step on sometoes a bit.
And then this was reallyfascinating.
She talks about what humilityhas to do with the concept of
(04:54):
margin.
So, guys, here is myconversation with Tali .
Well, Tali, so fun to have youon the podcast.
Thanks for joining me today.
Tali Kauflin (05:11):
Thanks for having me.
Jenni Catron (05:13):
Well and I have to kick off this episode by saying
thank you, and Clever, forsponsoring Culture Conference.
So this episode is going to airright before a culture
conference starts, so the timingis perfect and we're really
grateful that you guys not onlysponsor the event but also
produce the event.
So thanks for that.
(05:34):
We're excited about it.
Tali Kauflin (05:36):
Oh, you're so welcome.
We really believe in whatculture conference does and are
excited to just be a sponsor anda partner in this exciting
conference coming up.
Really soon.
Jenni Catron (05:45):
I know it's pretty exciting, well, and you guys
have been a part of it from thebeginning with us, and so it's
fun to have you as a sponsoragain and get to dive into this
world together.
But I want to dig into yourworld a little bit, your life as
a leader, learn a little bitmore about who you are, and one
of the topics that you're goingto be speaking on this in
(06:07):
culture conference and I thoughtyou know what we need to talk
about this on the podcast,because I think this idea of
creating margin and theimportance of margin is a
conversation I have with leadersall the time.
They're just wrestling with the.
There's not enough hours in theday.
How do I juggle life and allthe things?
(06:27):
But take us back a little bitand give us a little bit of your
story and how margin becamesuch a passion point for you,
because the little bit we'vediscussed, it's like there's
some history behind why thisbecame a passion point for you.
Yeah, for sure?
Tali Kauflin (06:42):
Well, I'll start by saying I'm a mom of five and
so automatically you don't havemuch margin, so that just comes
par for the course.
But I've been married to apastor for 20 years and we've
been in ministry for 20 yearsand have just experienced season
after season where there's morework than there is time to
(07:03):
accomplish it all.
And in the middle of all of thework, we planted a church,
which means you're wearingmultiple hats and you're doing
multiple roles.
We've had a child who has hadleukemia two times, and so not
only are you planting a church,doing ministry life, trying to
take care of your kids, but thenyou're also living in a
(07:24):
hospital and walking through andnavigating suffering, and that
just changes everything.
So thankfully he's doing great.
He has been off treatment forthree years now and in remission
.
But in the middle of all ofthat you find yourself surviving
and not thriving.
And you realize later on, whenyou're in these seasons of
(07:46):
intensity, it could be sickness,it could be work, it could be
emotional, mental there's somany things that cause seasons
of intensity you get to theother side of it and you realize
we're still treading water,we're still functioning as a
survivor and not as someone whois able to thrive.
And my husband and I looked ateach other.
(08:07):
We were like, okay, somethinghas to change.
So we did some personalinventory of just our time.
We realized that a lot of ourtime was not being used well.
We were doing a lot of things,but not always the most
impactful things or the mostimportant things, and we were so
reactive all the time we justfelt like we were moving from
(08:30):
crisis to crisis or problem toproblem, and then collapsing
into bed at the end of the dayand hoping that the next day we
could pull ourselves up from apillow and face the day.
So again, yeah, I do it allagain, so, yeah.
So, through many iterations ofdifficulty, many iterations of
just coming very close toburnout, and many iterations of
(08:54):
like, wow, things are goingreally well, we had to discern
what works for us.
So in the middle of all that,then you went out of career and
leadership roles and leadingothers not just my five humans
that I'm responsible for they'relive and livelihood, but the
(09:16):
humans that I'm responsible forat my job and realize you know
what?
There's gotta be a better way,we can do better here.
So that was kind of thebeginnings of a big shift for me
.
Jenni Catron (09:28):
Can you give us a couple of examples of the kind
of things I think like asleaders here, that they're like
oh yes, I can resonate with thatand, granted, you know, you've
had just a full plate it soundslike for most of your adult life
, and then, of course, with yourson's health, I mean that's a
(09:49):
whole other level of disruption.
That is like you know, it's awhole other thing, but I bet,
not normal.
Then we don't want that to bethe normal for anyone.
But I think there's a lot ofleaders who can resonate with
that idea of I feel like I'mreacting all the time Like you
(10:09):
know, just like because I do.
I think you get in some ofthose seasons where you're just
having to function so you knowrapidly to things that then that
becomes your normal.
So can you give us a couple ofexamples of the kind of things
where you realized, oh, we'renot, we need to change this.
This is not spending our timewisely here.
(10:31):
What were some of those?
Maybe a couple of practicalthings that you guys said.
Tali Kauflin (10:35):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean it could be sosimple as going from meeting to
meeting to meeting, to phonecall, to email to.
I mean you're just literallymoving from thing to thing to
thing and there's no pause forreflection, there's no pause for
application, there's just nopause.
Another huge indicator for mewas the things that I knew that
(10:59):
would give me health physicallyand mentally and emotionally.
I always ended up saying no toor just didn't have enough time
for.
So, for example, I have on mycalendar every day I block off
an hour of time to take a walk,and every day I have to make a
choice, Am I going to take thatwalk?
And I'm telling you, Jenni, alot of days I don't.
(11:19):
And I let the reactivity ofbusyness and the demands of work
Basically, I forego theinterests and the requirements
for a healthy me.
I just put them aside becauseI'm so busy.
And another big indicator Inoticed was that I just wasn't
emotionally available to thepeople that I love the most,
(11:40):
like, for example, my husband.
Would come home from work, Iwould come home from work and
there was nothing left to givethe other person.
There's just nothing.
I missed important dates.
I can't tell you the amount ofbirthday invitations that I
missed in my personal emailbecause I was so zeroed in on my
work email and my work lifethat I just dropped so many
(12:01):
balls in the things that, likethese, are the memory makers
right here.
Like I do, value my career it'svery important to me, but, like
these other things that I wassacrificing the quality time,
the emotional space andbandwidth being present, they
just got pushed aside and Iconvinced myself that I could
muscle through it and pushthrough it.
(12:26):
I had this realization that noneof us like limits.
Limits are culturally.
Limits are things to be broken,not things to embrace.
Limits are things that are nota good thing, but I've learned
through just studying scriptureand living enough life that
(12:48):
limits are actually a gift.
They're like the guardrails onthe highway.
Without guardrails on thehighway, we're going to veer off
that highway eventually andtake a turn too hard and do
something disastrous.
But those guardrails, thoselimits, tell us that there is an
end and a beginning to wheresafety on the road exists and we
can embrace them, or we cankeep, try to crash into them and
(13:10):
damage ourselves in the process, or we can say no.
These limits are actuallyreally good things, and not just
the guardrails.
The lines on the road keep mefrom crashing into the guardrail
, so there's a other limit andanother boundary.
That's actually really good.
So I mean, that's what marginessentially is.
It's the space between our loadand our limit.
(13:31):
It's that, it's that bufferingspace that allows us to safely
traverse this life.
And we need to take stock ofwhat those lines are, because if
we just press through them, youknow, in an attempt to break
through our limits, often thoselimits break us before we break
(13:52):
through them, and that'sdangerous.
Jenni Catron (13:54):
Yeah, yeah, that's super helpful.
I love that the margin is reallythe space between our load and
our limits, and just the visualof that is so incredibly helpful
Because, like, my mind wasgoing to the like see myself in
a car just repeatedly bumpinginto the like, you know, like if
(14:15):
you saw me do that driving downthe road, you would think the
girl is like something is wrong,something is like I'm curiously
wrong with her.
But you think about how often wedo that, right, you know, just
in our lives, and I I'm curiousfor you, but I know for me that
I always feel like I should beable to do just a bit more, or I
(14:38):
should be able to respond tothat thing.
Or you know and the listenersof the podcast know me well
enough to know that you know I'ma Enneagram three achiever,
like you know.
So it's like I never think thatI have limits on my capacity
until I come crashing into it.
So I would love to hear how?
(14:58):
How did you redefine limitswhen you you know, as you're
recognizing, okay, we've got to,we've got to readjust some
things to be able to thrive morein life and leadership?
How did you define those limits?
What was the starting point foryou guys.
Tali Kauflin (15:14):
Yeah, and I think I completely resonate with what
you just said.
There's oh, I can always domore, I'm a very high capacity
person and I'll push myself veryhard, and I I think the
realization was that that is nota long play, that's a short
play.
Yeah, Mine.
And so if I want to last foryears in this race, then I need
(15:35):
to have a much longer view thanI currently have.
And so it became a mathequation in a lot of ways for
every yes that I say, it's a noto something else, and I needed
to decide what's the best yes,and what's the right no.
And honestly, for me it startedwith humility.
I had to realize that I can'tdo everything, and nor should I
(15:56):
try, and that's hard.
That's hard for a driven person, and I think it's hard for a
leader, because innately, you'reborn to achieve, you're born to
climb, you're born to move theball down the field.
That's exciting, that's thethrill.
I don't think that's a bad thing.
I just think we need to have alonger view in considering not
(16:17):
just ourselves with that, butthe people that we're leaving a
legacy for, and take stock ofthe reality that are we leading
leaving collateral damage in ourwake, or are we leading leaving
thriving culture in our wake?
And so, for me, one of thefirst things, one of the first
steps Well, I'm gonna stoptalking.
(16:37):
We'll erase that.
You can ask any questions.
Jenni Catron (16:41):
That's good.
That's good.
No, I love that so much thatyou said it started with
humility.
Such a big statement rightthere, right Of like recognizing
that we are not superheroes,like we are not superhuman, that
I can't do everything, and like.
I love what you said there, too, about like having that longer
(17:02):
view is so powerful, so you havea little acronym to help
leaders find margin.
Would you tell us about that?
Tali Kauflin (17:10):
Love to.
So, after reading a lot ofbooks and a lot of thinking, I
am a very visual person, so Ilove rhyming phrases.
I love acronyms.
They just help me keep myvision clear of where I'm headed
.
So this acronym is deep and theletters stand for do what only
you can do, and then equip yourleaders and power your leaders
(17:33):
and position yourself out oftheir way.
Yeah, that's a tough one.
None of this is easy, but Ifound it to be really impactful
and successful in creating aculture of margin for myself and
for my teams.
Jenni Catron (17:51):
So okay, talk about each of those a bit more
for us.
So it's deep.
Do what only you can do equipyour people and power your
leaders and position yourselfout of the way.
So give us a little moreinsight on those.
Coach us through them.
If you were coaching all theleaders listening, which you are
, how would you give us a littleinsight in each of those?
Tali Kauflin (18:14):
Yeah.
So, like we said before, doingwhat only you can do starts with
that position of humility.
You could do everything,especially if you are the
captain of the ship, because youprobably are familiar enough
with everything that you coulddo it.
But again, it starts with thathumility position.
You really shouldn't be doingeverything and probably you're
(18:35):
not the best at doing everything.
So the first step for do for meis taking stock of everything
that my day and my week requiresof me.
And so how I do that is I startby writing everything I want to
do, everything I have to do andeverything I get to do, kind of
compile a list and just reflecton all of this thing.
(18:55):
I think the shift here is youhave to go from being reactive
to intentional, and unless youare aware of all the things that
are laying before you, youcannot be intentional.
You will only ever be reactive.
And so, starting with becomingaware of what you need to do,
you look at that list and youseparate it out into two things
the things that, literally, youare the only person in your
(19:17):
organization can do.
You are the only person who cando that thing.
You set that list aside.
Everything else can go tosomeone else, your massive list
should have shunned considerably.
Hopefully, yeah.
And so then, with your list ofthings only you can do, or the
things that you want to do, youknow you prioritize that by
(19:38):
impact, by importance, bypriority.
You look at the time, which isthe limitations that every
single human on this earth hasonly 24 hours in a day, 52 weeks
in a year.
We all have this good limit.
How does that work?
So if you wake up at this time,can you actually do all these
things in this day?
(19:58):
It's a sobering exercise, butit's an important one to know
the difference between what youcan do and what you actually
don't need to do, and so youbegin to consider who can I give
these things to?
There are a lot of tasks thatonly you can do, like paying
some of your bills because ofpasswords and things like that.
(20:20):
Those are simply fixed byautomation, and so finding
someone who can help point youin the right direction for tools
to automate your calendar soyou're not emailing back and
forth with people to schedulesomething, I mean, that saves so
much time.
There's such small littletricks we can do there, but
really recognizing like this isthe narrow lane of things that
(20:42):
require my touch.
That's good and that's how thatstarts.
What's that?
Yeah, the next one is equippingyour team Truly.
I think most leaders know thatall of our teams always need
ongoing opportunities to grow intheir skill sets, grow in their
understanding.
This is an investment that we,as leaders, get to make Now.
(21:05):
If we're handing off, if we'redelegating from our list of
things, that often requires aninvestment of our time into our
people so that they can do well,we need to be careful that
we're not hoarding knowledge forourselves.
We really do want to equip themwith that knowledge in mind.
(21:25):
That equipping others saves youtime to do what only you can do
yeah.
Then the next step is empowering.
This is one that I think can bethe hardest for some leaders,
because it's rooted in trust.
That's big, yeah.
You have to trust your peopleand they have to know that you
trust them.
If we say we trust our leadersand we withhold trust and
(21:49):
micromanage them, we are settingour team up for failure out the
gate.
They will never take ownership.
Truly, empowering your leadersmeans that they own it, because
with ownership comesresponsibility and from
responsibility comesaccountability.
That is how the ball gets, notjust moved meter by meter, but
(22:11):
the ball gets moved down thefield yard by yard in bigger
gaps.
It's so important to choose theright people.
It's okay if we don't choosethe right people.
Sometimes we learn.
This is all a learning exercise, in my opinion.
I don't think we always make theright choices out the gate, but
the reality is empoweredleaders are engaged with their
(22:35):
work.
They contribute their best.
They want to share their ideas.
When we are micromanaging andwhen we are withholding trust,
they're not going to share theirideas.
They're not going to feel likethey can take risk themselves,
something that I've done atClever.
(22:57):
That's been such a joy to do,as I've learned who my people
are.
Which is part of choosing theright people is by seeing them,
understanding them, listening tothem.
I've just communicated to themover and over.
I trust you for this.
I know you can do this and Iknow you'll come to me when you
feel like you can't.
(23:17):
That has just proven to fostersuch a healthy working
relationship between us.
I don't feel this weight tocome in and really be in the
weeds of something I don't needto be in the weeds on.
It's very freeing for me as theleader.
It's very empowering for them,as the direct reports and other
(23:38):
leaders in the company, to justknow that they have space to
thrive.
Which leads me to the last point, which is to position yourself
out of the way, this one.
Once you've learned to trustyour leaders, it shouldn't be
super hard, but goodness, itsure can be.
Get out of the way.
It's hard.
You don't want to miss theexciting wins.
(24:00):
You want to be part of them.
Yeah, that's an owner's mindset.
This is your baby.
Of course you want to be inthere with the wins.
You also don't want thefailures to go on failing too
long.
You want to swoop in there andfix that.
Turn the ship.
Getting out of the way meanssometimes you're out of the way
(24:22):
of the wins and you're out ofthe ways of the losses while
they get worked out with yourteam, trusting that they'll
bring you in when they need you.
Jenni Catron (24:32):
When they need you .
Yeah, that's big.
As you said that, I wasthinking about a team that I was
working with.
One of the criticisms that theteam had of their leader as
we're just kind oftroubleshooting the dynamics and
the culture and where theyneeded support it was that they
felt like their leader alwaysre-inserted in the wins.
(24:55):
They felt like that leaderstole the wins from them Again.
I know that wasn't the leader'sintention.
Yeah, I think even the teamknew that that leader's
intention but I think theydidn't position themselves out
of the way.
I think in a heart ofcelebrating with the team, they
actually kind of took the winaway in some way.
(25:18):
Isn't that what you're speakingto?
Tali Kauflin (25:20):
For sure.
I mean we want to acknowledgetheir efforts and their
ownership.
If we're taking ownership ofwhat they have done, then we're
robbing them of this.
I mean, we all know howimportant it is when we have
worked super hard on somethingand to see it cross the finish
line not just cross the finishline, but cross the finish line
with a banner success.
(25:40):
If someone else comes in andusurps some of the goodness of
that, that's hard and it's apride thing.
It's like celebrate whatsomeone has done because you see
them, because you want to keepa value of them.
Nothing devalues someone otherthan taking credit for something
(26:01):
that they've done that you hadno knowledge, expertise or input
in.
We don't need, as leaders, wereally don't need to have our
fingerprints on every singlething.
That's right, yeah.
Jenni Catron (26:13):
Ultimately it starts to get fun when you
realize you didn't and there wasstill this major win in the
organization and you're like andI can't take any credit Like
it's kind of a weird moment as aleader when you see that happen
and you're like that wasamazing.
I didn't really do anythingother than set my team up and if
(26:37):
you can find the joy in thatand celebrate that, I mean it's
such a culture builder thatpeople really feel I love.
Where you talked about earlier,like that ownership leads to
responsibility, which leads toaccountability.
Like that's such a powerfulequation that we don't realize
that a big part of that is by usempowering and getting out of
(27:01):
the way.
Tali Kauflin (27:03):
Like just get out of the way.
Truly, I think the older I get,the more I wanna celebrate the
crowns on other people's headsthat end like, oh, you're doing
so great here.
Like, celebrate you, wonderful,I'm so thankful for you, versus
coveting it for myself.
With maturity, with leading for20 years, comes this
(27:25):
perspective of this desire forshared celebration, and that's
such a like who wants tocelebrate alone?
That's such a lonely space.
It's so much more fun andenjoyable.
And then also, when you get outof the way, you realize that
your reach, the ripples of it,are much wider and further than
if you're like lasering in onperson, by person, by person.
(27:46):
You can have such a biggerimpact.
The ripple just goes so muchfurther when you're not there to
disrupt it constantly.
You know, yeah, that's supergood.
Jenni Catron (27:55):
You too.
Yeah, Really good, Tali.
Okay.
So lots of leaders listeninghere are going yes, I recognize
I need to be more intentionalabout this.
I need to be thoughtful aboutmargin.
How would you encourage them tostart, Like, based upon what
you've shared today, they'rerecognizing.
You know what?
I'm in that reaction mode allthe time.
(28:16):
Or I really need to be moreintentional about creating the
space, creating the margin,empowering my team, et cetera.
How would you encourage them toget started?
Tali Kauflin (28:26):
Well, you know, in a lot of ways it starts with
that acknowledging I'm spinningplates, I'm treading water and
I'm doing too much.
So that acknowledgement thatself-awareness is key number one
.
You have to start there.
And then I think, oftentimes,instead of trying to muscle
through yet one more thingbecause here's what can come
(28:46):
from listening to talk like thisNow I have one more thing I
need to do.
I have one more step-by-stepprogram to run through and, you
know, gonna have success.
I think the two things areself-awareness, that I need help
To deciding if this is thething that you need, the most
important thing, because forsome people it could just be you
(29:07):
need more rest, like you don'tneed another step-by-step thing,
you just need to learn how torest so that.
And then for other people, youmight just need help, like you
just might not be able to dothis by yourself, and that's
okay.
I think the best leaders are theones that surround themselves
with experts.
They surround themselves withpeople who are better than them
at a myriad of things, and soknowing when to ask for help,
(29:32):
knowing who to ask for help,that's good.
That would be the next thing.
And I think, the last thing andI was thinking about this
recently.
I'm trying to reintegratehealthy habits into my life.
Again, like I said at thebeginning, even in my own life,
being aware of margin, beingdeeply convinced of its
importance, I don't take the runthat I say that I'm gonna take
every day, and so, in order toreintegrate healthy habits into
(29:55):
my own life, it requiresdiscipline.
Yeah, anything in our lifethat's gonna have lasting impact
requires self-discipline and asleaders, we are familiar with
that.
We know that Sometimes we justneed someone to be come
alongside us and be like youjust need a little bit more
discipline.
You're doing too much.
Just be more disciplined in afew things, right?
So those would be the threethings that come to mind.
Jenni Catron (30:18):
Yeah, that's super helpful, telly.
I love that so much.
I wanna give you a minutebecause one of the things that I
think is part of the power ofClever, the company that you
work for, is that in many waysyou kind of help organizations
create some margin by the waythat you serve and partner with
other organizations.
(30:38):
So I'd love for you to take aminute and just tell our
listeners about Clever and whatyou guys do and how you serve
other leaders.
Tali Kauflin (30:45):
Absolutely I would love to.
I love working for Clever andthis is one of the reasons why
we pride ourselves on beingmargin makers.
We love nothing more than whensomeone comes to us and says I
need help and we're like come on, let's come alongside you.
We come alongside all kinds ofleaders and all kinds of
(31:06):
industries to really just createspace for them to do what only
they can do.
So let's say we have a churchleader, a pastor, coming to us
and they have a website thatthey need to be rebuilt, or they
don't have time to do theirSunday graphics, or they wanna
do an end of year givingcampaign and this is a mountain
to them.
They know the church needsthese things, they know they
(31:26):
wanna accomplish these things.
They just don't have the staff.
They have a staff that'sspinning plates.
They have a staff that'swearing 20 different hats.
We can come in and we can sayyou know what, pastor?
We can take that off your plate.
We can't hug your members, wecan't preach your sermons, we
can't be at those membersmeetings, but we sure can take
your sermon series off of yourplate.
(31:47):
We sure can design your end ofyear giving campaign in a way
that just is surprising anddelighting and beautiful and
creative, because lack of marginmeans you have no room for
creativity.
So we're able to come alongsidepeople who are basically burned
out and produce creativesolutions for them.
You know we can.
(32:08):
We, we listen to the problemsthat are stated and we help you
whittle down the problems thatactually need to be solved.
Oftentimes we come in and we'relike I think I need this.
I think I need that.
This is the problem that needsto be solved.
Our team at Clevers are reallygreat at hearing all of your
concerns and coming back to youwith a 90-day plan of success of
you.
Know what I heard, what yousaid and here's how we're going
(32:30):
to journey there with youtogether.
Then you just show up to aweekly meeting and we get to
show you all the things thatwe've done to lighten your load.
I think that Clever has thisreally unique role of getting to
come alongside and just carrythe load.
It's like doing a three-leggedrace.
We get to come alongside of youfor as long as you want us.
(32:50):
We're going to be there andwe're going to help you cross
the finish line, arm in arm sideby side.
Jenni Catron (32:56):
That's so good.
We partnered with you guys forI think it's going on three
years now A lot of the thingsthat, first of all, I just don't
even know how to do, but,secondly, you don't need to be
doing, especially on thecreative side with our website
and all of our production needsand things like that.
The stuff that is not core tothe work that I do but is
(33:17):
essential for us.
Being able to share what we do,I feel like, is where you guys
have been such a great partnerwith us.
Thank you for that.
How do we learn more aboutClever?
Where do we go for that?
Tali Kauflin (33:28):
Oh, great, well, you can certainly go to
weareclever.
com.
That is our website.
You can find us on Facebook andInstagram and LinkedIn.
We're all over the place.
We are on the socials.
Jenni Catron (33:40):
Perfect, perfect.
We'll link to that in the shownotes Weareclever.
com, which is fabulous.
Tali Kauflin (33:48):
Well, we try to be , we try to be we are clever.
Jenni Catron (33:52):
I love it.
Tal9i, this was so helpful.
Thank you for just sharing yourinsight and wisdom.
Thank you for your journey as aleader that forced you to
reckon with some of thesedynamics and not you know that
In many cases often lead leadersto burnout.
And what I heard you saying islike you got really intentional
(34:13):
to say, even with all of thecraziness of life, even with all
the responsibilities we hadgoing on, we you and your
husband in particular wereintentional to say we've got to
figure out how to operate in ahealthier way and be smart about
margin.
So thanks for sharing that withus today, thanks for leading
well and we're grateful for yourinfluence in our world today.
Tali Kauflin (34:36):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
Jenni Catron (34:38):
All right, gang.
I hope that got you thinking.
I think that deep acronym is soincredibly powerful Do what
only you can do, equip your teamand power your leaders and
position yourself out of the way.
So that's going to get youthinking and I hope you'll take
some action on that.
You know every one of us needsmore margin, and this is one of
(35:00):
those things that, at everyseason of leadership, is
requiring a little somethingdifferent from you, and so
you're constantly having tocreate more margin so that you
can do those things that onlyyou can do.
And what only you can do isconstantly shifting, and so I
think this is just a really good, healthy inventory to say where
(35:21):
do I need to create more marginso that I can lead myself well,
so I can lead others better?
So let me know what you thoughtof this week's episode.
Send us an email at podcast atget4sight.
com, just reach out to us on allthe social channels Get4sight,
or you can find me atJenniCatron, and then let us
(35:42):
know what we can do to serve youbetter.
Give us feedback on the episode, give us that review, slap some
stars on it, and then I wouldlove it if you would share this
episode with another leader,maybe somebody that you know is
struggling with time or withmargin and just share it with
them and encourage them tolisten in.
(36:03):
And then, if we can be aresource in any other way, I
wanna encourage you to go togetforsightcom that's G-E-T, the
number four, s-i-g-h-t dot comand check out the different
things that we're doing there.
We're actually doing a fewlittle upgrades to the website,
so we're trying to get clearerabout what we do and how we do
(36:24):
it, so we can serve you betterin all things leadership and
culture.
And if you haven't done it yet,go to cultureconference.
org.
Make sure you're registered andI will see you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!