September 5, 2023 • 37 mins
When we think of leadership, we often revert to the traditional model of management. But is that model still relevant in a post-COVID world, and with a millennial workforce? That's the question we explore with Holly Tate, Senior Vice President of Growth at Leadr. Holly, whose passion for people development is infectious, shares why she believes the old model of leadership is outdated. We discuss the five characteristics of high-performing teams and the paramount importance of building trust intentionally within your teams.
You'll learn how to foster a healthy culture of feedback and recognize each team member's unique strengths. Holly guides us through the key differences between coaching and criticism, stresses the need for self-awareness, and the importance of individual development plans. We're shifting the focus from climbing the corporate ladder to enhancing the individual's skills and strengths. Leadership is not about titles, but about intentional investment in the growth of your team members.
In the final part of our discussion, Holly provides valuable insight into the challenges of a hybrid work environment. We explore the essential role culture plays as a system that people react to. How can you create a culture that works for distributed teams? What tools can you use to reinforce that culture? Holly shares her personal journey of leading a team from five to almost 40 people, underlining the need to never assume trust and always strive for a balance in everything we do. Prepare for an episode packed with invaluable insights on leadership and personal growth.
About Holly
Holly Tate is SVP of Growth at Leadr. She is a growth strategist, entrepreneur, speaker, and member of the Forbes Communication Council.
Before joining Leadr, Holly Vice President of Business Development & Marketing at Vanderbloemen, where she led partnerships, brand growth, demand and lead generation, sales and marketing alignment, and new industry initiatives for the company.
Holly is founder of performance marketing agency, The Ready Network, and an international speaker on marketing, communications, brand growth, leadership development, and workplace culture. She has spoken at conferences including Pushpay Summit, Texas Ministry Conference, Engage, Northwest Ministry Conference, That Church Conference, and ICMA (India).
As a member of the Forbes Communications Council, Holly contributes thought leadership on marketing and communications to Forbes online where her advice has been featured in 40+ articles.
Resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hey friends, I'm your host, Jenni Catron, and this is
the Lead Culture Podcast, whereI coach you to lead yourself
well so you can lead othersbetter.
My team and I at the 4sightGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:31):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
On this week's episode, I amjoined by my good friend, Holly
Tate.
Holly is the Senior VicePresident of Growth at Leadr
(00:55):
that you have heard me talkabout so often.
We are big fans of Leadr andyou're going to hear Holly share
a little bit more about thatresource today.
But Holly is a growthstrategist, an entrepreneur, a
speaker and member of the ForbesCommunication Council.
Now, before joining Leadr,holly was Vice President of
(01:16):
Business Development andMarketing at Vanderbloemen,
where she led partnerships,brand growth, demand and lead
generation, sales and marketingalignment and new industry
initiatives for the company.
Holly is also the founder of aperformance marketing agency
called the Ready Network and sheis an international speaker on
marketing communications, brandgrowth, leadership, development
(01:38):
and workplace culture.
As a member of the ForbesCommunication Council.
Holly contributes thoughtleadership on marketing and
communication to Forbes Online,where her advice has been
featured in 40 plus articles.
So she is a busy leader.
She has a lot going on.
Holly has been a longtimefriend.
She's actually been on thepodcast.
I think this is the thirdepisode.
(02:00):
I should have gone back andchecked that before I recorded
this, but we'll go do thathomework.
But today we dig into aconversation about why is
management dead?
So at Leadr they have a brandnew book out called Management
is Dead.
You want to go check that out.
And she really talks about thisidea of really moving from
managers to coaches, to guidesto leaders, and why that matters
(02:23):
so much.
She tells us about the fivecharacteristics of high
performing teams.
We dig into thosecharacteristics a bit and then
she shares just some of whatshe's learning as a leader and
why we should never assume wehave trust and be intentionally
and purposeful about earning it.
And so you guys, thisconversation is such a helpful.
(02:45):
First of all, lots of justcamaraderie and friendship
probably shows up through theepisode, but Holly is one of
those kindred spirits who reallyunderstands the importance of
healthy leaders and healthyculture, and I think that shines
through this episode today.
Holly, it's good to have youback.
(03:13):
Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I'm trying to remember now is this you might
have been a third time guest.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I think it's possible .
At least two, maybe three.
Yeah, at least two, maybe three.
So you're a regular favorite,like that might be a once a year
thing.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
We should like title that.
What could we call that?
I don't know, I don't know.
I need to title.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Something special yeah, Something special if
you're back three times.
Yes, no, but I'm excited totalk today because obviously it
would be great to catch up onall things at leader and how you
guys are doing.
But then you also.
You guys have released a newbook called Management is Dead
and I am excited to dig intothat today.
(03:58):
But before we get there, catchus up on life.
What's going on in your world?
Any big news we should knowabout.
Big updates we should know.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, thank you, I'm not.
I haven't melted yet in the 100plus degree weather we're
having in Houston Texas thissummer.
It has been brutal.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is where, like you're, smart to live in
Wisconsin.
Well, we had a hundred degreeday this week here in Wisconsin
in late August.
Yeah, so I got like one day ofit.
It was only one day.
It was like this little, likelittle blip, and I was like, oh,
texas friends, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
It's been.
It has been relentlessly hot,so that's the latest.
But the good news is I get totravel for work a lot with
leader, get to go visitcustomers and just kind of
evangelize the work that we'redoing around people development,
and so sometimes I get a breakfrom the heat, whereas my
husband has to stay here andhold down the fort.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So especially Houston .
Like bless you all.
Like I, the few times I'vevisited Houston.
Like the weather is never veryfriendly.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I know.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No, I don't mind hot weather, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It's just really humid.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, the humidity is rough, I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So it is.
It is rough, it's beautifulhere, you know, in the fall,
over the winter, but the summersit's gross, yeah, it's intense.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Okay, so I want to dive into this topic of
management is dead.
Okay, tell us, tell us why.
Yeah, why is management dead,yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, so for those of you who have never heard of,
like what leader?
What are they talking about?
We spell it weird it's L E, a DR.
The whole idea is that the oldway, which is still a lot of the
way that people today lead,which is true management style.
So it's, I want to be a goodmanager, but we believe that
that is dead because of so manythings.
(05:50):
Number one the whole world ofwork looks so different than it
used to, especially post COVID.
We're all in different places.
Now we're all connected 24,seven and especially the next
generation.
Their expectations of the worldof work are so different.
So where it used to be that youknow, even me, I'm kind of an
anomaly.
I'm a millennial, but I've beenin my jobs for longer than the
(06:13):
average millennial typically is.
But it used to be.
You would, you know, join a joband you would stay there for
years and raise in the ranks andget your you know a couple of
percentage pay every couple ofyears, whereas, especially the
younger generation, they canstart a business on Instagram
now, yeah Right, they can go toYouTube and learn how to do
(06:34):
anything, so they're no longerlooking for a quote unquote
manager, they're really lookingto be led and developed.
They're looking for thatrelationship that they can't get
anywhere else, more of thatguide and that mentor.
And so that's why we believethat management is dead, that
supervisory, managing, rightRelationship it doesn't work
(06:55):
anymore.
It's more of someone who's aguide and a coach and a true.
That's what we would call atrue leader.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah yeah.
That's so fascinating because Ibet a lot of listeners can
resonate with that.
What do you say to the personwho's like?
But what about like holding himaccountable?
What about you do have to makesure everything's happening and
is on task and like, so what'syour reaction to the first
(07:23):
person that is fearful of, butyou still have to manage things?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah it has to be alive a little bit right, it
can't be totally dead.
We've we have these fiveprinciples that are About
consistent leadership, and whenthese things are present which
I'll go through in a secondthat's where we're able to have
the both the accountability butalso the trust.
I mean, I think about PatrickLincioni and the five
(07:46):
dysfunctions of a team, right,like, yeah, it talks about
accountability and trust are atthe foundation of every
relationship.
But especially when we're on ateam and I think a lot of us as
managers forget about thatbecause we're so Focused on
performance, we're so focusedand I've been there, I've been
that bulldozer manager it's likeguys, we got a goal to hit, I
don't care about anything elseexcept the end zone and let's go
(08:09):
.
But what I realize is, when I amthat focused on management and
performance, I Bulldoze, all ofthe people that are in my way
lose their trust and then theyeither they leave or I have to
work is that much harder laterto rebuild that trust, which
takes way longer than if I wouldjust bring them along on the
(08:31):
journey Right and earn theirtrust in the meantime, in the,
you know, in the first place?
So those five things are, wereally believe in one-on-ones,
one-on-one check-ins, havingthem consistently.
I'm a huge fan of weeklyone-on-ones.
I just think that bi-weekly oronce a month is just too slow.
Yeah, but you're not havinganyone on ones, just start
somewhere.
(08:51):
That's what I always tellleaders.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Well, and Holly, take that, take a minute there, and
you know, because what'sstaggering is there are probably
people that are like what doyou mean by a one-on-one, yeah?
So yeah, explain that a littlebit of like even what, what that
means to you.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yes.
So a one-on-one is aintentional Scheduled check-in
between you and your directreport and again, I like to do
it on a weekly basis, but we'dsay at least bi-weekly.
Yeah, and I, what I try to dois focus in three areas.
So first is care.
You know, I just admitted thatI can be that bulldozer manager
sometimes.
But the first thing I want todo is really make sure that the
(09:33):
person that I'm leading knowsthat I, I care about them and I
care a lot.
That's usually why I'm sointense, because I care a lot.
But if I don't lead with care,I don't ask Anna and Carissa,
you know how they're doing,how's work-life balance, how's
the new baby, etc.
And I just jump into projectsthat that can signal to them
(09:56):
that I care more about theprojects than I do as them.
As a person, that's good.
Yeah, I try to start there.
Sometimes it's two minutes andsometimes it's 20 minutes.
It just depends on what youknow me and that person need.
That day, sure.
And then I try to touch ondevelopment.
So care and then development,and this is just the person's
best next step.
Sometimes you know Carissawho's on my team.
(10:16):
She was in your women inleadership cohort yeah, it's for
the.
You know six months that shewas in that cohort with you.
We talked about that every week.
It was a recurring agenda item.
What are you thinking?
How are you applying it to yourrole?
Because if she's just going andattending and then I never ask
her how it's going, we're nottruly developing her and so
that's good, I try to touch onthat, or maybe it's just reading
(10:36):
a book or Taking an onlinecourse.
You know it could.
It could mean a myriad ofdifferent things, but really
just trying to make sure thatthat person is truly being
developed.
And then, thirdly, performance,and notice the order Right, so
it's like care.
Development.
And then performance, becauseif we're letting the person know
we care about them, we'reearning their trust, which is
the foundation of every healthyrelationship.
(10:58):
Right for developing them.
Which means, hey, it's notabout me, it's about you, Jenni,
how can I help you?
And performance goes so mucheasier.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Trust because of care and development, their
performance kind of takes careof itself at that point, yeah,
so passionate about theone-on-one well, and even just
that little microcosm, that oneyou know Characteristic or
attribute of a high performingIndividual, you know leader is,
you hear that is more of aleader than a manager.
(11:30):
Like, even as you describethose three things that you're
doing in that one-on-one, all ofa sudden you go well, yeah, the
management, part of that per se, the performance you know where
you're checking in onperformance, that's a, that's a
fraction of it, because you'veyou really coached and developed
first.
You cared, coached, developed,etc.
So like you can give just alittle microcosm there of like
(11:52):
that's the, that's thedistinction, that's the
difference.
That's happening.
Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's this visual andI think it was Adam Grant
actually, where this originallycame from.
Some obsessed with him onsocial media, like people, are
like Holly, your Instagram isjust reposting Adam Grant stuff.
I'm like, yeah.
I want to repost everything heputs out.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right, it's so good.
I'm like how can one individualhave all of those golden
nuggets every day?
I'm like I don't know, but hedoes it.
I'm just like I just need tohang it out, like just just go
retweet, repost everything AdamGrant talks about, and you know,
yes, it is so true.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
But yeah, he posted this visual that I thought was
so good, I think.
I think when he originallyposted it it was about conflict
and the idea was that, like whatwe usually experience as
conflict is two or two peoplepointing at each other, right,
and the conflict is like in themiddle and we're pointing at
each other, you know.
But healthy conflict is twopeople standing side by side,
(12:54):
arm and arm, pointing togetherat the problem.
Oh, I think that's the same asleadership, right?
Like management is like twopeople pointing at each other,
right, and I think that you knowdevelopment or true leadership
is Standing, you know,hand-in-hand, arms locked,
pointing together in the samedirection, tackling the problem
together.
That's coaching, love thatcompared to management.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, that's good, that's good, Okay, so tell us
about a couple of these othercharacteristics.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, so regular one-on-ones.
The second one is consistentfeedback.
I know, and like literally,feedback is an F word, f word,
and a lot of us have had reallynegative experiences with
feedback, and so when we seehigh performing teams, high
performing leaders, is whenthere's an intentional effort To
create a healthy culture offeedback, so kind of like what
(13:43):
we just talked about.
Right, like when we're givingand receiving feedback, it's
it's given from a place ofcoaching and development and not
criticism, and actually learnedthat for huge any you.
You gave a talk on feedback Onetime where you talked about
that difference between coachingand criticism.
Yeah, I mean being so clearabout what is that goal in mind
that that person or that team istrying to achieve.
(14:04):
That's good, objective feedbackon how they can get there,
rather than criticism is Sayingthat something is wrong or
there's a perceived fault ormistake, and so that is a really
important distinction for us asleaders, to make sure that
we're Coaching and notcriticizing when it comes to
feedback.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And then the third one is recognizing our team for
their unique skills andstrengths.
So you know, really knowing ourteam members whether that's
using a tool like Working Genius, which I know you at 4Sight
Group use that one a lotMyersBriggs , or Disc I mean
there's so many different onespredictable success but really
(14:48):
making sure that we knowourselves and our team so that
we can recognize them for theunique skills and strengths that
they bring to the table andmake sure we've got everybody in
the right place, sure so.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
The last two are clear goals and then making sure
that everybody has adevelopment plan.
So making sure that goals areclear so that we can all answer
the question on you know what'smost important right now to our
mission or our company.
And then development plans.
And again, I think weovercomplicate these.
I see like executive teams orHR teams spend hours, if not
(15:25):
months, sometimes even a year,like we're still working on our
development plan pathway andlike I think it's just a best
next step.
And yeah, with every person onyour team, what's their best
next step and how can you givethem one resource to help them
get there?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So those are the five yeah, those are so good
One-on-ones consistent feedback,unique skills and strengths,
clear goals, development plans.
I wanna ask you a question onthe development plans one,
because I am hearing a lot ofquestions around this lately
about, well, what's mydevelopment pathway?
Like, you know, how do Idevelop here?
And for a lot of theorganizations that we work with,
(16:03):
you know they would beconsidered small organizations,
small businesses, even if theyhave up to a couple hundred
employees, and so typically inthose environments there aren't
a lot of like obviouspromotional opportunities, right
, like on a team of 30, thereare only so many directors,
there are only so many managers,et cetera.
And so what I see a lot is thatpeople equate development with
(16:25):
a title change, and I've beentrying to help reframe that with
a hey, we want everybodygrowing and developing and
continuing to, you know, justdevelop those skills and
strengths that they have andknow that they're being invested
in here.
Is that how you guys would lookat that?
Development plans as well?
It's not just a promotionalplan.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad you brought this upbecause I hear the same thing.
It's like oh, but we don't haveany room for promotions, but I
really don't think that's whatthe majority of people are
asking for when they ask to bedeveloped.
So I think everybody shouldread Radical Candor by Kim Scott
.
She talks about this conceptbetween rock stars and
superstars, and there's beenmultiple people on our leader
(17:06):
team, like employees at leader,who have read that book and said
it changed their lives, becausethey realize that they don't
want to be a manager Like, theydon't want to lead people, they
want to be the best.
I think about Anna on my team.
She read that book and came tome and she was like Holly.
I feel like I finally have alanguage to communicate what
I've been trying to say foryears, which is I want to be the
best marketing manager ever andI want to continue to grow in
(17:28):
my skills and expertise andbecome a specialist as a
marketing manager.
I don't want to be a director,vp or you know and lead people
and be responsible for strategy,and that is great.
Like we need both.
We need rock stars andsuperstars.
If Anna and I both wanted to be, you know, the one that wants
(17:48):
to get promoted, all the timewe'd be in trouble Because
somebody would have to do thework.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, and then it said, like your only opportunity
is to move on, and what I'veseen time and time again is we.
Then, you know, if somebodydoes move into one of those
positions because that's theperceived way to develop and
grow, then they're, they'repromoted out of their actual
strengths and you know, andthey're miserable, the
(18:13):
organization suffers for it.
And so I think I love how youframed it as development plans
and I love also how you saidjust what's the next best step.
And you know, as I've done thiswith teams through the years,
it's like just a conversationwith that employee saying, hey,
where do you think you need togrow?
What are you passionate aboutlearning and excelling in?
What do I see as your leader,not manager?
(18:36):
And you know, what do we wantto?
You know, what do we want to mapout for the year, six months,
whatever your duration is, andthat commitment from us as
leaders to our team members tosay, hey, we want to invest in
your development.
And it can be simple, it mightjust be we're they're reading a
book a quarter, or they're goingto a conference once a year or
(18:58):
they're doing a course.
You know they're doingforesight leadership Institute.
You know, like whatever thatmight be, we're just intentional
on that development.
So I just wanted to call thatout because I'm just hearing so
much about that piece that Ithink is a topic of conversation
right now yeah, I'm so glad youdid.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And just a practical example of that, like in Anna
and her review, that we just didbecause I know that she wants
to be that rock star then I amnow able to help coach her and
say, okay, anna, what is onetechnical area in marketing
where you want to grow in thenext six months?
And so she went out and found afree online course through
HubSpot that she's going to betaking and to help her, you know
(19:38):
, be better as a rock star inmarketing.
Whereas if I didn't have that,if we didn't have that
conversation or shared you knowlanguage I would probably be
like Anna, you should be takinga management course and learning
how to lead people.
And she'd be like no, I don'tlike this.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, that's not what I'm passionate about.
Yeah, so good.
Holly, I'm curious, because youguys work with a lot of leaders
and a lot of differentorganizations.
That's one of those challengesor topics that's kind of
bubbling up.
But what are some other thingsthat you're hearing?
What are some of the challengesleaders are facing right now
from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, One of the biggest things is just still
figuring out this whole hybridversus in-office totally remote.
I'm hearing that more and more.
I think the article just cameout, which is so ironic, that
Zoom is requiring everybody tocome back to work which is
hilarious.
I think across the board,leaders are really trying to
(20:36):
figure this out, because I thinkthat there's still this fear,
going back to management versusdevelopment that if I can't see
my team, I don't know whatthey're working on.
We lack visibility becausewe're all over the place.
Even for organizations that dohave an in-person culture now
there's a lot of folks that areworking from home sometimes or
(20:58):
different hours the visibilitypiece is challenging.
How do we know that we're allaligned, that we're working on
the most important thing, thatour goals are clear?
That has been a big challengefor leaders that I talked to.
I really desire that visibilitypiece.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Are you seeing any organizations, any leaders
starting to crack the code onthat?
What are some things thatyou're seeing that are working
in helping people navigate ahybrid working environment?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
I think, first of all , have someone on the team that
is responsible in owning yourculture.
Jenni, I know this is what youguys do so well 4Sight the
Group.
It's just amazing to me howit's still like oh yeah, well,
that's just an HR function.
The HR leader is like wait,what?
My KPIs don't have anything todo with culture.
They're all about compliance orperformance.
(21:50):
Being really clear about onedefining our culture.
If you're listening to this andyou are like what is that?
I don't know what that means.
You need to 4Sight the Groupnow.
I didn't pay her to do that, bythe way.
Yeah, getting so clear about it.
Yes, then having someone on theteam.
It doesn't have to be an HR,but someone who is that culture
(22:12):
champion that is owning that andreally driving that up, down
and across the org chart.
Then the second thing of course, I'm biased.
I love our platform for this,but making sure that you're
using tools that give you thatvisibility, not in a micromanage
way.
When we've built leader, we'vebeen really intentional.
There's plenty of tools outthere.
(22:33):
If you want to be a big brotherand you want to track people's
time and micromanage them,there's lots of technology out
there that will do that.
What we set out to do withleader was build a platform that
allows it's like a digitalworkspace.
It allows teams to work togetherbut also gives the executive
(22:54):
team that visibility into.
Are the behaviors that we aresaying we expect actually being
pulled through the org chartActually developing our people
as everyone engaged in growing,and are we getting our work done
, making sure that you're usingtools and resources to be able
to have that visibility so youcan confidently answer that
question, keep your eye on itand make changes and iterations,
(23:18):
as you're seeing that inside offor us at Leader, that digital
workspace, I love that youhighlight that, because the
visibility piece is huge.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I think one of the things that we've coached
organizations on in this area isthat we were lazy in the old
way and that proximity gave usvisibility and it gave us the
illusion of we were all aligned,we were all working together
effectively In some cases, wewere.
(23:51):
What the hybrid dynamic hasdone is again, it's taken away
some of that proximity and it'screated a gap in visibility.
Figuring out how do we fillthat gap?
One of the things when we'redoing the culture work with
teams, we're helping them definethat culture, build the plan
(24:13):
for what they aspire to.
We talk about how so much ofculture is actually a system
which people react to becausethey're like oh, culture is
organic.
Yes, and in any organizationthat's more than a handful of
people.
We actually need some systemsthat reinforce the things that
(24:33):
are most critical to who we areand how we work together.
We coach our clients toactually use Leader because it's
such a helpful and engagingplatform.
You can reinforce those thingsthat are so critical to your
culture through the platform.
Being thoughtful andintentional of yes, this is what
(24:55):
we want to look like.
This is who we are at our best.
This is what we want to looklike Even a distributed team in
a hybrid scenario and here usingthose tools that reinforce the
systems that make that culture areality.
They work together socritically, but it does take
more intentionality.
Again, I think it was the lazyway of well, if they're all here
(25:15):
, we can have some semblance ofcontrol on it.
Now we have to have moredigital systems that help us do
that.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Nailed it.
It's moving from that cultureof caught with a C taught with
with a T.
It used to be that that wasbased only on the size of your
organization, but now, becausewe're hybrid or we're fully
remote, we have to be thinkingabout culture from the very
beginning, as how do we teachthis, how do we scale this?
Because we can't just sit nextto each other in the same room
(25:46):
every day and observe behavior.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
That's right.
That's exactly right, holly.
I'm curious what are youlearning as a leader Now you've
been in your role?
Senior VP.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yes, I'm two years now.
Yeah, Gosh, that's gone fast.
You're crazy.
I know you're with me from thevery beginning, Jenni.
You remember that conversationwe had when I was like I think I
want to do this job.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Should I do it?
Matt Trusseter still owes mefor that.
Yes, but yeah, two and a halfyears you guys have been on just
a rocket ride of growth.
I know that maybe two and ahalf years, maybe the same title
, but I know that it iscontinuing to stretch you and
(26:32):
grow you as a leader.
I'd love to hear what are youlearning?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh my goodness, so much.
Yeah, I keep telling even myteam.
I'm like this is going to be ina book one day.
I'm in the middle of living it.
I feel like I'm only halfwaythrough the book right now.
My own personal journey.
Even over the last year and ahalf at Leadr, I've learned so
much.
I came on board two and a halfyears ago as a one woman
(26:57):
marketing team and literally wasdoing all the things, from
building things in Canva toupdating our website, to working
on strategy and all the things.
Then I grew our marketing teamto about five people and then,
almost overnight, Matt came tome and said our CEO and said hey
(27:18):
, holly, I think I want you tolead the sales team, which was a
downline of like 30 people.
So overnight my downline wentfrom like five to almost 40
people.
Oh yeah, because we werebuilding a new team at the time
as well that I was leading, andso it was this exhilarating
opportunity, right, it was like,oh my goodness, this is my on
(27:38):
paper, my dream job.
But what I came to learn somany things through that
experience.
I mean, the first thing Ilearned was I assumed that I had
the team's trust because Iworked with all of them before,
even though they didn't reportto me.
I assumed that I had the team'strust.
And what I learned so much inthose, especially those first
(27:59):
six months, was you can neverassume that you have trust,
always be making relationaldeposits.
We kind of talked about trustat the beginning of had jannies,
five dysfunctions of a team,but like never think you have
trust and always be working toearn it.
And so, because we talked aboutthis before we started
recording working genius, I'm aDG with disk, I'm a high D, I'm
(28:25):
an in-eargram eight like lots ofenergy, intense passion, lots
of ideas.
And so I went in there and waslike let's go and didn't bring
my team along on that journey,maybe lots of changes really
fast.
And everybody was like whiplashand all that.
So that was a really big lessonthat I learned early on, which
(28:49):
will kind of lead to the mostrecent lesson.
So all that to say, I'll kindof end the story Like I actually
ended up giving the sales teamback over to our CEO, and so it
was really humbling because Ifelt like I'd failed.
It was like that was at the sametime that you know, there were
the economy started to go crazyand we were all like well, it's
gonna happen, you know, andleading sales at that point is
(29:09):
hard, and so that was.
You know, I really felt likeman, I failed, like I have not
been able to lead this team atthe capacity and at the
performance that I really wantedto.
But all that to the most recentlearning that I've had, because
(29:30):
I've never been more energizedin the work I'm doing today, in
the last like four months and mywhole two and a half years.
I'm more energized in the lastfew months than I ever have been
at leader and it's because,number one, I'm working in my
sweet spot, like my workinggenius, like DG, every single
day, yeah, yeah.
And then, two, I had thisrealization where and I worked
(29:52):
one of my coaches helped mefigure this out.
She said, holly, you can chooseto have influence or authority.
And they're not necessarily thesame thing, right, and usually
when you are, when you usuallyhave to cash out influence to
earn authority, but influence isso much bigger than any
(30:13):
authority you could ever have.
And so it's interesting becausenow I have very a lot less
direct reports In fact, I onlyhave two today and I had a lot
in my downline a year ago, andso at first it was really
humbling and it was like, oh mygosh, my team is so small.
Now I had this big team andthis big responsibility, but
what I have more of today ismore influence.
(30:35):
So I had authority at the time,but I didn't have influence.
Yeah, yeah.
And now I've really learned andtried to live into that.
What does it look like toreally lead from a place of
influence and steward that well,both internally and externally?
So anyway, that was kind of asaga and pretty.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
No, it's so good.
I'm sure so many listeners yeah.
I was gonna say I know a ton oflisteners are listening to that
going that I like I.
That resonates, I get that.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat, thanks for just being a
little honest about that journeyfor you, because, again, I do
think we naturally assume justmore is better.
(31:15):
So, okay, yeah, let me take onthat team, let me take on that
thing and I was so guilty ofthis it's probably still on, but
I remember that very distinctlythe church in Nashville when it
was growing so rapidly.
It's like okay, yeah, okay,yeah, okay, yeah.
And it's just like but there's apoint of diminishing returns
(31:35):
and you're not in your sweetspot and all of a sudden you've
lost your energy, your passion,your enthusiasm for the work and
you're going.
What in the world?
This is everything I thought Iwanted.
And so to pause and do thatevaluation, to have honest
conversations with your leaderand to be willing and humble
enough to release something thatmaybe isn't, you know, in the
(31:57):
it's not the best season for it,or it's not the best for your
giftedness and to be able tolike, really focus on that sweet
spot, cause you're gonna bebetter for you, you're gonna be
better for the organization andfor the team as a result of that
, so thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, of course, I hope it encourages others to be
and to be more open about it,cause when we are, that's where
we can all help each other.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Oh, that's so true, so true, okay.
So what is one thing you wouldcoach our listeners to do today?
Knowing, like the landscape ofleadership, what leaders are
navigating?
You know a lot of the listenersto lead culture.
What would you coach them ifyou could be the coach to all of
us?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, I mean the number one thing is get your one
on one's on the calendar.
And the biggest pushback I hearis holy, I already have a busy
calendar.
Like there's no way I can't doit, but it's counterintuitive.
But when you get your one onone's on the calendar and you
actually have really great oneon ones you will be amazed at
how much of your capacity isbeing freed up Because your team
will be able to run faster,more effectively when you're
(32:59):
empowering them with the careand developments and coaching
that they need to go accomplishtheir mission.
So get your one on one calendar.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
So true, I love that so much.
I have seen that play out overand over again in my journey and
with a lot of the leaders thatwe've coached, that like really
prioritizing that.
And back to that trust buildingpiece, like that commitment to
your direct reports to give themthat focus, time and attention.
That one on one space like thatis like just such a significant
(33:32):
trust builder.
That then, and the talk that Idid for culture conference, was
trust building behaviors andit's those simple, consistent
behaviors of leadership thatactually build trust and give
teams a great foundation forexcelling.
So I love that so much.
(33:53):
Okay, how do we learn moreabout leader?
Cause I think a lot of folkslistening actually are like I
need to know a little bit moreabout this tool, cause we've
just skimmed the surface on thattoday.
So hopefully we created somecuriosity and people can go
reach out to you, get a demo, etcetera, and just get connected
with you.
Beyond that, tell us how to doall that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yes, well, it's leadr .
com, but again we spell it kindof weird.
So it's L E A D R dot com andyou can chat right there on the
website with our team or requesta demo, even see a product
overview.
So that is all right there onour website and my emails Pretty
easy.
It's hollytapes At leadercomand you can always reach out
(34:31):
anytime.
I'd love to connect with you.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
So good, holly.
Thank you so much for comingback, for being a returning
guest, for pouring into us asleaders, and we will be sure to
put all of that info in the shownotes and folks I would
encourage you definitely gocheck out leader L-E-A-D-Rcom
and get your one-on-ones on thecalendar.
Let's do it.
(34:55):
Thanks, denny.
All right, friends, I know thatwas helpful to you.
I took lots of notes as I wastalking to Holly and I hope you
did as well.
Make sure you go check outleader L-E-A-D-Rcom and check
out what they do.
Check out, do a demo and seewhat that resource is all about.
(35:17):
But again, having systems,having tools that help you
reinforce the best habits andbehaviors of your team leader is
one of those resources thathelps you do that.
So I really wanna encourage youto check that out.
Let me know what you thought ofthis week's episode.
Connect with me on Instagramand Facebook.
You can find us at Get4sightG-E-T, the number four,
(35:38):
s-i-g-h-t, or at Jenny Catron,j-e-n-n-i-c-a-t-r-o-n.
Guys, I actually love hearingfrom you, so, like, message me
on Instagram or social media,send me an email at podcast at
get4sightcom.
Is there somebody you think Ishould interview?
Maybe there is somebody who isjust doing exceptional with
(36:01):
their culture, like maybe youknow a leader who has done
really good work to build ahealthy culture, maybe rebuild a
culture.
I'd love to hear their storyand consider them for the
podcast.
So if you have some suggestions, send them my way.
Podcast at getforsightcom.
In the meantime, make sure youare signed up for weekly
(36:21):
insights.
That is my email that goes outto you every week telling you
our latest blog posts, ourlatest podcast episode where
we're gonna be things that we'reworking on, new initiatives
that we have going on.
You wanna make sure you are inthe know on all of that.
So go to get4sightcom and youcan sign up there.
We also have done some updatesto the website.
(36:42):
We talk a lot moreintentionally about the lead
culture framework.
So if you've been trying tofigure out oh gosh, where do we
start?
I know we need to do some workon culture or I just wanna make
sure we are really doing good,healthy, just reflection on our
culture and investing in ourteam.
We really walk you through whatthat lead culture process looks
(37:04):
like and so you can check thatout there.
Then you can get in touch withone of us and we'd be happy to
answer your questions or helpyou work on your culture more
intentionally.
Well, you guys, thanks forlistening today.
Keep leading well, and we willsee you next time.
Hey friends, I'm your host, Jenni Catron, and this is
the Lead Culture Podcast, whereI coach you to lead yourself
well so you can lead othersbetter.
My team and I at the 4sightGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:31):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
On this week's episode, I amjoined by my good friend, Holly
Tate.
Holly is the Senior VicePresident of Growth at Leadr
(00:55):
that you have heard me talkabout so often.
We are big fans of Leadr andyou're going to hear Holly share
a little bit more about thatresource today.
But Holly is a growthstrategist, an entrepreneur, a
speaker and member of the ForbesCommunication Council.
Now, before joining Leadr,holly was Vice President of
(01:16):
Business Development andMarketing at Vanderbloemen,
where she led partnerships,brand growth, demand and lead
generation, sales and marketingalignment and new industry
initiatives for the company.
Holly is also the founder of aperformance marketing agency
called the Ready Network and sheis an international speaker on
marketing communications, brandgrowth, leadership, development
(01:38):
and workplace culture.
As a member of the ForbesCommunication Council.
Holly contributes thoughtleadership on marketing and
communication to Forbes Online,where her advice has been
featured in 40 plus articles.
So she is a busy leader.
She has a lot going on.
Holly has been a longtimefriend.
She's actually been on thepodcast.
I think this is the thirdepisode.
(02:00):
I should have gone back andchecked that before I recorded
this, but we'll go do thathomework.
But today we dig into aconversation about why is
management dead?
So at Leadr they have a brandnew book out called Management
is Dead.
You want to go check that out.
And she really talks about thisidea of really moving from
managers to coaches, to guidesto leaders, and why that matters
(02:23):
so much.
She tells us about the fivecharacteristics of high
performing teams.
We dig into thosecharacteristics a bit and then
she shares just some of whatshe's learning as a leader and
why we should never assume wehave trust and be intentionally
and purposeful about earning it.
And so you guys, thisconversation is such a helpful.
(02:45):
First of all, lots of justcamaraderie and friendship
probably shows up through theepisode, but Holly is one of
those kindred spirits who reallyunderstands the importance of
healthy leaders and healthyculture, and I think that shines
through this episode today.
Holly, it's good to have youback.
(03:13):
Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I'm trying to remember now is this you might
have been a third time guest.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I think it's possible .
At least two, maybe three.
Yeah, at least two, maybe three.
So you're a regular favorite,like that might be a once a year
thing.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
We should like title that.
What could we call that?
I don't know, I don't know.
I need to title.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Something special yeah, Something special if
you're back three times.
Yes, no, but I'm excited totalk today because obviously it
would be great to catch up onall things at leader and how you
guys are doing.
But then you also.
You guys have released a newbook called Management is Dead
and I am excited to dig intothat today.
(03:58):
But before we get there, catchus up on life.
What's going on in your world?
Any big news we should knowabout.
Big updates we should know.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, thank you, I'm not.
I haven't melted yet in the 100plus degree weather we're
having in Houston Texas thissummer.
It has been brutal.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is where, like you're, smart to live in
Wisconsin.
Well, we had a hundred degreeday this week here in Wisconsin
in late August.
Yeah, so I got like one day ofit.
It was only one day.
It was like this little, likelittle blip, and I was like, oh,
texas friends, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
It's been.
It has been relentlessly hot,so that's the latest.
But the good news is I get totravel for work a lot with
leader, get to go visitcustomers and just kind of
evangelize the work that we'redoing around people development,
and so sometimes I get a breakfrom the heat, whereas my
husband has to stay here andhold down the fort.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So especially Houston .
Like bless you all.
Like I, the few times I'vevisited Houston.
Like the weather is never veryfriendly.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I know.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No, I don't mind hot weather, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
It's just really humid.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah, the humidity is rough, I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So it is.
It is rough, it's beautifulhere, you know, in the fall,
over the winter, but the summersit's gross, yeah, it's intense.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Okay, so I want to dive into this topic of
management is dead.
Okay, tell us, tell us why.
Yeah, why is management dead,yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Well, so for those of you who have never heard of,
like what leader?
What are they talking about?
We spell it weird it's L E, a DR.
The whole idea is that the oldway, which is still a lot of the
way that people today lead,which is true management style.
So it's, I want to be a goodmanager, but we believe that
that is dead because of so manythings.
(05:50):
Number one the whole world ofwork looks so different than it
used to, especially post COVID.
We're all in different places.
Now we're all connected 24,seven and especially the next
generation.
Their expectations of the worldof work are so different.
So where it used to be that youknow, even me, I'm kind of an
anomaly.
I'm a millennial, but I've beenin my jobs for longer than the
(06:13):
average millennial typically is.
But it used to be.
You would, you know, join a joband you would stay there for
years and raise in the ranks andget your you know a couple of
percentage pay every couple ofyears, whereas, especially the
younger generation, they canstart a business on Instagram
now, yeah Right, they can go toYouTube and learn how to do
(06:34):
anything, so they're no longerlooking for a quote unquote
manager, they're really lookingto be led and developed.
They're looking for thatrelationship that they can't get
anywhere else, more of thatguide and that mentor.
And so that's why we believethat management is dead, that
supervisory, managing, rightRelationship it doesn't work
(06:55):
anymore.
It's more of someone who's aguide and a coach and a true.
That's what we would call atrue leader.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah yeah.
That's so fascinating because Ibet a lot of listeners can
resonate with that.
What do you say to the personwho's like?
But what about like holding himaccountable?
What about you do have to makesure everything's happening and
is on task and like, so what'syour reaction to the first
(07:23):
person that is fearful of, butyou still have to manage things?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Yeah it has to be alive a little bit right, it
can't be totally dead.
We've we have these fiveprinciples that are About
consistent leadership, and whenthese things are present which
I'll go through in a secondthat's where we're able to have
the both the accountability butalso the trust.
I mean, I think about PatrickLincioni and the five
(07:46):
dysfunctions of a team, right,like, yeah, it talks about
accountability and trust are atthe foundation of every
relationship.
But especially when we're on ateam and I think a lot of us as
managers forget about thatbecause we're so Focused on
performance, we're so focusedand I've been there, I've been
that bulldozer manager it's likeguys, we got a goal to hit, I
don't care about anything elseexcept the end zone and let's go
(08:09):
.
But what I realize is, when I amthat focused on management and
performance, I Bulldoze, all ofthe people that are in my way
lose their trust and then theyeither they leave or I have to
work is that much harder laterto rebuild that trust, which
takes way longer than if I wouldjust bring them along on the
(08:31):
journey Right and earn theirtrust in the meantime, in the,
you know, in the first place?
So those five things are, wereally believe in one-on-ones,
one-on-one check-ins, havingthem consistently.
I'm a huge fan of weeklyone-on-ones.
I just think that bi-weekly oronce a month is just too slow.
Yeah, but you're not havinganyone on ones, just start
somewhere.
(08:51):
That's what I always tellleaders.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Well, and Holly, take that, take a minute there, and
you know, because what'sstaggering is there are probably
people that are like what doyou mean by a one-on-one, yeah?
So yeah, explain that a littlebit of like even what, what that
means to you.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Yes.
So a one-on-one is aintentional Scheduled check-in
between you and your directreport and again, I like to do
it on a weekly basis, but we'dsay at least bi-weekly.
Yeah, and I, what I try to dois focus in three areas.
So first is care.
You know, I just admitted thatI can be that bulldozer manager
sometimes.
But the first thing I want todo is really make sure that the
(09:33):
person that I'm leading knowsthat I, I care about them and I
care a lot.
That's usually why I'm sointense, because I care a lot.
But if I don't lead with care,I don't ask Anna and Carissa,
you know how they're doing,how's work-life balance, how's
the new baby, etc.
And I just jump into projectsthat that can signal to them
(09:56):
that I care more about theprojects than I do as them.
As a person, that's good.
Yeah, I try to start there.
Sometimes it's two minutes andsometimes it's 20 minutes.
It just depends on what youknow me and that person need.
That day, sure.
And then I try to touch ondevelopment.
So care and then development,and this is just the person's
best next step.
Sometimes you know Carissawho's on my team.
(10:16):
She was in your women inleadership cohort yeah, it's for
the.
You know six months that shewas in that cohort with you.
We talked about that every week.
It was a recurring agenda item.
What are you thinking?
How are you applying it to yourrole?
Because if she's just going andattending and then I never ask
her how it's going, we're nottruly developing her and so
that's good, I try to touch onthat, or maybe it's just reading
(10:36):
a book or Taking an onlinecourse.
You know it could.
It could mean a myriad ofdifferent things, but really
just trying to make sure thatthat person is truly being
developed.
And then, thirdly, performance,and notice the order Right, so
it's like care.
Development.
And then performance, becauseif we're letting the person know
we care about them, we'reearning their trust, which is
the foundation of every healthyrelationship.
(10:58):
Right for developing them.
Which means, hey, it's notabout me, it's about you, Jenni,
how can I help you?
And performance goes so mucheasier.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Trust because of care and development, their
performance kind of takes careof itself at that point, yeah,
so passionate about theone-on-one well, and even just
that little microcosm, that oneyou know Characteristic or
attribute of a high performingIndividual, you know leader is,
you hear that is more of aleader than a manager.
(11:30):
Like, even as you describethose three things that you're
doing in that one-on-one, all ofa sudden you go well, yeah, the
management, part of that per se, the performance you know where
you're checking in onperformance, that's a, that's a
fraction of it, because you'veyou really coached and developed
first.
You cared, coached, developed,etc.
So like you can give just alittle microcosm there of like
(11:52):
that's the, that's thedistinction, that's the
difference.
That's happening.
Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think there's this visual andI think it was Adam Grant
actually, where this originallycame from.
Some obsessed with him onsocial media, like people, are
like Holly, your Instagram isjust reposting Adam Grant stuff.
I'm like, yeah.
I want to repost everything heputs out.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
Right, it's so good.
I'm like how can one individualhave all of those golden
nuggets every day?
I'm like I don't know, but hedoes it.
I'm just like I just need tohang it out, like just just go
retweet, repost everything AdamGrant talks about, and you know,
yes, it is so true.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
But yeah, he posted this visual that I thought was
so good, I think.
I think when he originallyposted it it was about conflict
and the idea was that, like whatwe usually experience as
conflict is two or two peoplepointing at each other, right,
and the conflict is like in themiddle and we're pointing at
each other, you know.
But healthy conflict is twopeople standing side by side,
(12:54):
arm and arm, pointing togetherat the problem.
Oh, I think that's the same asleadership, right?
Like management is like twopeople pointing at each other,
right, and I think that you knowdevelopment or true leadership
is Standing, you know,hand-in-hand, arms locked,
pointing together in the samedirection, tackling the problem
together.
That's coaching, love thatcompared to management.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yeah, that's good, that's good, Okay, so tell us
about a couple of these othercharacteristics.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, so regular one-on-ones.
The second one is consistentfeedback.
I know, and like literally,feedback is an F word, f word,
and a lot of us have had reallynegative experiences with
feedback, and so when we seehigh performing teams, high
performing leaders, is whenthere's an intentional effort To
create a healthy culture offeedback, so kind of like what
(13:43):
we just talked about.
Right, like when we're givingand receiving feedback, it's
it's given from a place ofcoaching and development and not
criticism, and actually learnedthat for huge any you.
You gave a talk on feedback Onetime where you talked about
that difference between coachingand criticism.
Yeah, I mean being so clearabout what is that goal in mind
that that person or that team istrying to achieve.
(14:04):
That's good, objective feedbackon how they can get there,
rather than criticism is Sayingthat something is wrong or
there's a perceived fault ormistake, and so that is a really
important distinction for us asleaders, to make sure that
we're Coaching and notcriticizing when it comes to
feedback.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Yeah, that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
And then the third one is recognizing our team for
their unique skills andstrengths.
So you know, really knowing ourteam members whether that's
using a tool like Working Genius, which I know you at 4Sight
Group use that one a lotMyersBriggs , or Disc I mean
there's so many different onespredictable success but really
(14:48):
making sure that we knowourselves and our team so that
we can recognize them for theunique skills and strengths that
they bring to the table andmake sure we've got everybody in
the right place, sure so.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
The last two are clear goals and then making sure
that everybody has adevelopment plan.
So making sure that goals areclear so that we can all answer
the question on you know what'smost important right now to our
mission or our company.
And then development plans.
And again, I think weovercomplicate these.
I see like executive teams orHR teams spend hours, if not
(15:25):
months, sometimes even a year,like we're still working on our
development plan pathway andlike I think it's just a best
next step.
And yeah, with every person onyour team, what's their best
next step and how can you givethem one resource to help them
get there?
Speaker 2 (15:40):
So those are the five yeah, those are so good
One-on-ones consistent feedback,unique skills and strengths,
clear goals, development plans.
I wanna ask you a question onthe development plans one,
because I am hearing a lot ofquestions around this lately
about, well, what's mydevelopment pathway?
Like, you know, how do Idevelop here?
And for a lot of theorganizations that we work with,
(16:03):
you know they would beconsidered small organizations,
small businesses, even if theyhave up to a couple hundred
employees, and so typically inthose environments there aren't
a lot of like obviouspromotional opportunities, right
, like on a team of 30, thereare only so many directors,
there are only so many managers,et cetera.
And so what I see a lot is thatpeople equate development with
(16:25):
a title change, and I've beentrying to help reframe that with
a hey, we want everybodygrowing and developing and
continuing to, you know, justdevelop those skills and
strengths that they have andknow that they're being invested
in here.
Is that how you guys would lookat that?
Development plans as well?
It's not just a promotionalplan.
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Absolutely.
I'm so glad you brought this upbecause I hear the same thing.
It's like oh, but we don't haveany room for promotions, but I
really don't think that's whatthe majority of people are
asking for when they ask to bedeveloped.
So I think everybody shouldread Radical Candor by Kim Scott
.
She talks about this conceptbetween rock stars and
superstars, and there's beenmultiple people on our leader
(17:06):
team, like employees at leader,who have read that book and said
it changed their lives, becausethey realize that they don't
want to be a manager Like, theydon't want to lead people, they
want to be the best.
I think about Anna on my team.
She read that book and came tome and she was like Holly.
I feel like I finally have alanguage to communicate what
I've been trying to say foryears, which is I want to be the
best marketing manager ever andI want to continue to grow in
(17:28):
my skills and expertise andbecome a specialist as a
marketing manager.
I don't want to be a director,vp or you know and lead people
and be responsible for strategy,and that is great.
Like we need both.
We need rock stars andsuperstars.
If Anna and I both wanted to be, you know, the one that wants
(17:48):
to get promoted, all the timewe'd be in trouble Because
somebody would have to do thework.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, and then it said, like your only opportunity
is to move on, and what I'veseen time and time again is we.
Then, you know, if somebodydoes move into one of those
positions because that's theperceived way to develop and
grow, then they're, they'repromoted out of their actual
strengths and you know, andthey're miserable, the
(18:13):
organization suffers for it.
And so I think I love how youframed it as development plans
and I love also how you saidjust what's the next best step.
And you know, as I've done thiswith teams through the years,
it's like just a conversationwith that employee saying, hey,
where do you think you need togrow?
What are you passionate aboutlearning and excelling in?
What do I see as your leader,not manager?
(18:36):
And you know, what do we wantto?
You know, what do we want to mapout for the year, six months,
whatever your duration is, andthat commitment from us as
leaders to our team members tosay, hey, we want to invest in
your development.
And it can be simple, it mightjust be we're they're reading a
book a quarter, or they're goingto a conference once a year or
(18:58):
they're doing a course.
You know they're doingforesight leadership Institute.
You know, like whatever thatmight be, we're just intentional
on that development.
So I just wanted to call thatout because I'm just hearing so
much about that piece that Ithink is a topic of conversation
right now yeah, I'm so glad youdid.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And just a practical example of that, like in Anna
and her review, that we just didbecause I know that she wants
to be that rock star then I amnow able to help coach her and
say, okay, anna, what is onetechnical area in marketing
where you want to grow in thenext six months?
And so she went out and found afree online course through
HubSpot that she's going to betaking and to help her, you know
(19:38):
, be better as a rock star inmarketing.
Whereas if I didn't have that,if we didn't have that
conversation or shared you knowlanguage I would probably be
like Anna, you should be takinga management course and learning
how to lead people.
And she'd be like no, I don'tlike this.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, that's not what I'm passionate about.
Yeah, so good.
Holly, I'm curious, because youguys work with a lot of leaders
and a lot of differentorganizations.
That's one of those challengesor topics that's kind of
bubbling up.
But what are some other thingsthat you're hearing?
What are some of the challengesleaders are facing right now
from your perspective?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yes, One of the biggest things is just still
figuring out this whole hybridversus in-office totally remote.
I'm hearing that more and more.
I think the article just cameout, which is so ironic, that
Zoom is requiring everybody tocome back to work which is
hilarious.
I think across the board,leaders are really trying to
(20:36):
figure this out, because I thinkthat there's still this fear,
going back to management versusdevelopment that if I can't see
my team, I don't know whatthey're working on.
We lack visibility becausewe're all over the place.
Even for organizations that dohave an in-person culture now
there's a lot of folks that areworking from home sometimes or
(20:58):
different hours the visibilitypiece is challenging.
How do we know that we're allaligned, that we're working on
the most important thing, thatour goals are clear?
That has been a big challengefor leaders that I talked to.
I really desire that visibilitypiece.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Are you seeing any organizations, any leaders
starting to crack the code onthat?
What are some things thatyou're seeing that are working
in helping people navigate ahybrid working environment?
Speaker 1 (21:28):
I think, first of all , have someone on the team that
is responsible in owning yourculture.
Jenni, I know this is what youguys do so well 4Sight the
Group.
It's just amazing to me howit's still like oh yeah, well,
that's just an HR function.
The HR leader is like wait,what?
My KPIs don't have anything todo with culture.
They're all about compliance orperformance.
(21:50):
Being really clear about onedefining our culture.
If you're listening to this andyou are like what is that?
I don't know what that means.
You need to 4Sight the Groupnow.
I didn't pay her to do that, bythe way.
Yeah, getting so clear about it.
Yes, then having someone on theteam.
It doesn't have to be an HR,but someone who is that culture
(22:12):
champion that is owning that andreally driving that up, down
and across the org chart.
Then the second thing of course, I'm biased.
I love our platform for this,but making sure that you're
using tools that give you thatvisibility, not in a micromanage
way.
When we've built leader, we'vebeen really intentional.
There's plenty of tools outthere.
(22:33):
If you want to be a big brotherand you want to track people's
time and micromanage them,there's lots of technology out
there that will do that.
What we set out to do withleader was build a platform that
allows it's like a digitalworkspace.
It allows teams to work togetherbut also gives the executive
(22:54):
team that visibility into.
Are the behaviors that we aresaying we expect actually being
pulled through the org chartActually developing our people
as everyone engaged in growing,and are we getting our work done
, making sure that you're usingtools and resources to be able
to have that visibility so youcan confidently answer that
question, keep your eye on itand make changes and iterations,
(23:18):
as you're seeing that inside offor us at Leader, that digital
workspace, I love that youhighlight that, because the
visibility piece is huge.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
I think one of the things that we've coached
organizations on in this area isthat we were lazy in the old
way and that proximity gave usvisibility and it gave us the
illusion of we were all aligned,we were all working together
effectively In some cases, wewere.
(23:51):
What the hybrid dynamic hasdone is again, it's taken away
some of that proximity and it'screated a gap in visibility.
Figuring out how do we fillthat gap?
One of the things when we'redoing the culture work with
teams, we're helping them definethat culture, build the plan
(24:13):
for what they aspire to.
We talk about how so much ofculture is actually a system
which people react to becausethey're like oh, culture is
organic.
Yes, and in any organizationthat's more than a handful of
people.
We actually need some systemsthat reinforce the things that
(24:33):
are most critical to who we areand how we work together.
We coach our clients toactually use Leader because it's
such a helpful and engagingplatform.
You can reinforce those thingsthat are so critical to your
culture through the platform.
Being thoughtful andintentional of yes, this is what
(24:55):
we want to look like.
This is who we are at our best.
This is what we want to looklike Even a distributed team in
a hybrid scenario and here usingthose tools that reinforce the
systems that make that culture areality.
They work together socritically, but it does take
more intentionality.
Again, I think it was the lazyway of well, if they're all here
(25:15):
, we can have some semblance ofcontrol on it.
Now we have to have moredigital systems that help us do
that.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Nailed it.
It's moving from that cultureof caught with a C taught with
with a T.
It used to be that that wasbased only on the size of your
organization, but now, becausewe're hybrid or we're fully
remote, we have to be thinkingabout culture from the very
beginning, as how do we teachthis, how do we scale this?
Because we can't just sit nextto each other in the same room
(25:46):
every day and observe behavior.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
That's right.
That's exactly right, holly.
I'm curious what are youlearning as a leader Now you've
been in your role?
Senior VP.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yes, I'm two years now.
Yeah, Gosh, that's gone fast.
You're crazy.
I know you're with me from thevery beginning, Jenni.
You remember that conversationwe had when I was like I think I
want to do this job.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Should I do it?
Matt Trusseter still owes mefor that.
Yes, but yeah, two and a halfyears you guys have been on just
a rocket ride of growth.
I know that maybe two and ahalf years, maybe the same title
, but I know that it iscontinuing to stretch you and
(26:32):
grow you as a leader.
I'd love to hear what are youlearning?
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Oh my goodness, so much.
Yeah, I keep telling even myteam.
I'm like this is going to be ina book one day.
I'm in the middle of living it.
I feel like I'm only halfwaythrough the book right now.
My own personal journey.
Even over the last year and ahalf at Leadr, I've learned so
much.
I came on board two and a halfyears ago as a one woman
(26:57):
marketing team and literally wasdoing all the things, from
building things in Canva toupdating our website, to working
on strategy and all the things.
Then I grew our marketing teamto about five people and then,
almost overnight, Matt came tome and said our CEO and said hey
(27:18):
, holly, I think I want you tolead the sales team, which was a
downline of like 30 people.
So overnight my downline wentfrom like five to almost 40
people.
Oh yeah, because we werebuilding a new team at the time
as well that I was leading, andso it was this exhilarating
opportunity, right, it was like,oh my goodness, this is my on
(27:38):
paper, my dream job.
But what I came to learn somany things through that
experience.
I mean, the first thing Ilearned was I assumed that I had
the team's trust because Iworked with all of them before,
even though they didn't reportto me.
I assumed that I had the team'strust.
And what I learned so much inthose, especially those first
(27:59):
six months, was you can neverassume that you have trust,
always be making relationaldeposits.
We kind of talked about trustat the beginning of had jannies,
five dysfunctions of a team,but like never think you have
trust and always be working toearn it.
And so, because we talked aboutthis before we started
recording working genius, I'm aDG with disk, I'm a high D, I'm
(28:25):
an in-eargram eight like lots ofenergy, intense passion, lots
of ideas.
And so I went in there and waslike let's go and didn't bring
my team along on that journey,maybe lots of changes really
fast.
And everybody was like whiplashand all that.
So that was a really big lessonthat I learned early on, which
(28:49):
will kind of lead to the mostrecent lesson.
So all that to say, I'll kindof end the story Like I actually
ended up giving the sales teamback over to our CEO, and so it
was really humbling because Ifelt like I'd failed.
It was like that was at the sametime that you know, there were
the economy started to go crazyand we were all like well, it's
gonna happen, you know, andleading sales at that point is
(29:09):
hard, and so that was.
You know, I really felt likeman, I failed, like I have not
been able to lead this team atthe capacity and at the
performance that I really wantedto.
But all that to the most recentlearning that I've had, because
(29:30):
I've never been more energizedin the work I'm doing today, in
the last like four months and mywhole two and a half years.
I'm more energized in the lastfew months than I ever have been
at leader and it's because,number one, I'm working in my
sweet spot, like my workinggenius, like DG, every single
day, yeah, yeah.
And then, two, I had thisrealization where and I worked
(29:52):
one of my coaches helped mefigure this out.
She said, holly, you can chooseto have influence or authority.
And they're not necessarily thesame thing, right, and usually
when you are, when you usuallyhave to cash out influence to
earn authority, but influence isso much bigger than any
(30:13):
authority you could ever have.
And so it's interesting becausenow I have very a lot less
direct reports In fact, I onlyhave two today and I had a lot
in my downline a year ago, andso at first it was really
humbling and it was like, oh mygosh, my team is so small.
Now I had this big team andthis big responsibility, but
what I have more of today ismore influence.
(30:35):
So I had authority at the time,but I didn't have influence.
Yeah, yeah.
And now I've really learned andtried to live into that.
What does it look like toreally lead from a place of
influence and steward that well,both internally and externally?
So anyway, that was kind of asaga and pretty.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
No, it's so good.
I'm sure so many listeners yeah.
I was gonna say I know a ton oflisteners are listening to that
going that I like I.
That resonates, I get that.
So, yeah, thank you for sharingthat, thanks for just being a
little honest about that journeyfor you, because, again, I do
think we naturally assume justmore is better.
(31:15):
So, okay, yeah, let me take onthat team, let me take on that
thing and I was so guilty ofthis it's probably still on, but
I remember that very distinctlythe church in Nashville when it
was growing so rapidly.
It's like okay, yeah, okay,yeah, okay, yeah.
And it's just like but there's apoint of diminishing returns
(31:35):
and you're not in your sweetspot and all of a sudden you've
lost your energy, your passion,your enthusiasm for the work and
you're going.
What in the world?
This is everything I thought Iwanted.
And so to pause and do thatevaluation, to have honest
conversations with your leaderand to be willing and humble
enough to release something thatmaybe isn't, you know, in the
(31:57):
it's not the best season for it,or it's not the best for your
giftedness and to be able tolike, really focus on that sweet
spot, cause you're gonna bebetter for you, you're gonna be
better for the organization andfor the team as a result of that
, so thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, of course, I hope it encourages others to be
and to be more open about it,cause when we are, that's where
we can all help each other.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Oh, that's so true, so true, okay.
So what is one thing you wouldcoach our listeners to do today?
Knowing, like the landscape ofleadership, what leaders are
navigating?
You know a lot of the listenersto lead culture.
What would you coach them ifyou could be the coach to all of
us?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, I mean the number one thing is get your one
on one's on the calendar.
And the biggest pushback I hearis holy, I already have a busy
calendar.
Like there's no way I can't doit, but it's counterintuitive.
But when you get your one onone's on the calendar and you
actually have really great oneon ones you will be amazed at
how much of your capacity isbeing freed up Because your team
will be able to run faster,more effectively when you're
(32:59):
empowering them with the careand developments and coaching
that they need to go accomplishtheir mission.
So get your one on one calendar.
Speaker 2 (33:08):
So true, I love that so much.
I have seen that play out overand over again in my journey and
with a lot of the leaders thatwe've coached, that like really
prioritizing that.
And back to that trust buildingpiece, like that commitment to
your direct reports to give themthat focus, time and attention.
That one on one space like thatis like just such a significant
(33:32):
trust builder.
That then, and the talk that Idid for culture conference, was
trust building behaviors andit's those simple, consistent
behaviors of leadership thatactually build trust and give
teams a great foundation forexcelling.
So I love that so much.
(33:53):
Okay, how do we learn moreabout leader?
Cause I think a lot of folkslistening actually are like I
need to know a little bit moreabout this tool, cause we've
just skimmed the surface on thattoday.
So hopefully we created somecuriosity and people can go
reach out to you, get a demo, etcetera, and just get connected
with you.
Beyond that, tell us how to doall that.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yes, well, it's leadr .
com, but again we spell it kindof weird.
So it's L E A D R dot com andyou can chat right there on the
website with our team or requesta demo, even see a product
overview.
So that is all right there onour website and my emails Pretty
easy.
It's hollytapes At leadercomand you can always reach out
(34:31):
anytime.
I'd love to connect with you.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
So good, holly.
Thank you so much for comingback, for being a returning
guest, for pouring into us asleaders, and we will be sure to
put all of that info in the shownotes and folks I would
encourage you definitely gocheck out leader L-E-A-D-Rcom
and get your one-on-ones on thecalendar.
Let's do it.
(34:55):
Thanks, denny.
All right, friends, I know thatwas helpful to you.
I took lots of notes as I wastalking to Holly and I hope you
did as well.
Make sure you go check outleader L-E-A-D-Rcom and check
out what they do.
Check out, do a demo and seewhat that resource is all about.
(35:17):
But again, having systems,having tools that help you
reinforce the best habits andbehaviors of your team leader is
one of those resources thathelps you do that.
So I really wanna encourage youto check that out.
Let me know what you thought ofthis week's episode.
Connect with me on Instagramand Facebook.
You can find us at Get4sightG-E-T, the number four,
(35:38):
s-i-g-h-t, or at Jenny Catron,j-e-n-n-i-c-a-t-r-o-n.
Guys, I actually love hearingfrom you, so, like, message me
on Instagram or social media,send me an email at podcast at
get4sightcom.
Is there somebody you think Ishould interview?
Maybe there is somebody who isjust doing exceptional with
(36:01):
their culture, like maybe youknow a leader who has done
really good work to build ahealthy culture, maybe rebuild a
culture.
I'd love to hear their storyand consider them for the
podcast.
So if you have some suggestions, send them my way.
Podcast at getforsightcom.
In the meantime, make sure youare signed up for weekly
(36:21):
insights.
That is my email that goes outto you every week telling you
our latest blog posts, ourlatest podcast episode where
we're gonna be things that we'reworking on, new initiatives
that we have going on.
You wanna make sure you are inthe know on all of that.
So go to get4sightcom and youcan sign up there.
We also have done some updatesto the website.
(36:42):
We talk a lot moreintentionally about the lead
culture framework.
So if you've been trying tofigure out oh gosh, where do we
start?
I know we need to do some workon culture or I just wanna make
sure we are really doing good,healthy, just reflection on our
culture and investing in ourteam.
We really walk you through whatthat lead culture process looks
(37:04):
like and so you can check thatout there.
Then you can get in touch withone of us and we'd be happy to
answer your questions or helpyou work on your culture more
intentionally.
Well, you guys, thanks forlistening today.
Keep leading well, and we willsee you next time.
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