September 19, 2023 • 32 mins
What if your workplace was a destination your employees couldn't wait to arrive at every day? You may think it's a far-fetched idea, but Joe Mull, begs to differ. He's an author, leadership coach, and a passionate advocate for turning workplaces into environments where employees don't just survive but thrive. Joe has a wealth of experience and insights to share, from his background in performing arts and student affairs, to leading learning development for one of the largest healthcare systems in the US. This episode is packed with engaging conversations about upgrading the employee experience, the competitive edge of a four-day work week, and the psychology behind job satisfaction.
Ever wondered why some employees stick around while others are quick to exit? Our second segment is dedicated to deciphering just that. We delve into Joe's research-backed findings on retention and turnover, emphasizing the three key areas employers need to win in: ideal job, meaningful work, and a great boss. But that's not all. In the age of remote and hybrid working, the role of managers and leaders is evolving. We discuss how to lead effectively from afar and foster a healthy workplace culture that nurtures trust and loyalty. Joe also introduces his book, Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work, championing a humane approach to the employee experience. If you're searching for fresh perspectives and practical strategies to level up your leadership game, this episode is a must-listen.
About Joe
Known as a dynamic, engaging speaker, Joe Mull teaches leaders and business owners how to be better bosses and make work “work for all”. He is the author of three books: Cure for the Common Leader, No More Team Drama, and his latest, Employalty: How to Ignite Commitment and Keep Top Talent in the New Age of Work. He is founder of the BossBetter Leadership Academy and the host of the globally popular Boss Better Now podcast, ranked in the Top 100 of all management podcasts (Apple).
As a thought leader and subject matter expert, Joe brings decades of real-world experience to his writing and speaking. He previously served as head of Learning & Development for Physician Services at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC), where he directed learning strategy and implementation for one of the largest physician groups in the U.S. Prior to his years of service in healthcare, he spent a decade working in leadership and program development roles in student affairs in higher education.
Joe holds the coveted Certified Speaking Professional™ (CSP®) designation from the National Speakers Association (NSA). Held by fewer than 20% of professional speakers worldwide, the CSP is the speaking profession’s international measure of speaking exce
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hey friends, I'm your host, Jenny Catron, and welcome
to the Lead Culture Podcast,part of the Art of Leadership
Network.
Now, my goal here is to coachyou to lead yourself well so you
can lead others better.
My team and I at the 4SightGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:35):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
Today on the podcast, my guestis Joe Mull.
Known as a dynamic, engagingspeaker, Joe Mull teaches
(00:57):
leaders and business owners howto be better bosses and make
work work for all.
He's the author of three booksCure for the Common Leader, No
More Team Drama and his latestbook, Employalty: How to Ignite
Commitment and Keep Top Talentin the New Age of Work.
(01:17):
He's the founder of Boss BetterLeadership Academy and the host
of the globally popular BossBetter Now podcast, which is
ranked in the top 100 of allmanagement podcasts.
As a thought leader and subjectmatter expert, Joe brings
decades of real world experienceto his writing and speaking.
(01:38):
He previously served as head oflearning and development for
physician services at theUniversity of Pittsburgh Medical
Center, where he directedlearning strategy and
implementation for one of thelargest physician groups in the
US.
Prior to his years of servicein healthcare, he spent a decade
working in leadership andprogram development roles in
(02:00):
student affairs and highereducation.
Joe is a sought after speaker.
He is a phenomenal writer andtoday we have a fantastic
conversation around the world ofwork and you're going to hear
from Joe sharing how to be adestination workplace.
I love so much his thoughts onjust the reality of the
(02:24):
workplace dynamic that we're allnavigating and he says stop
blaming people and start fixingwork.
So we dig into that.
Today I asked him about thatstatement in particular.
We talked about how to be thatdestination workplace.
He shares three things we needto provide to be the upgrade
employees are looking for.
And then, you guys, we dig intothe four day work week and why
(02:47):
it's a competitive advantage.
So here's my conversation withJoe Moll.
Joe, thanks so much for joiningme today.
Just in our pre conversationfree, free podcast conversation
(03:08):
I was like, oh, we're going to.
This is going to be fun, I'mlooking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Jenni, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited for thisconversation.
Just like you said, I think thework that we each do is going
to make this a fun one.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
You know, one of the things I have loved about
podcasting is I end up gettingconnected to people like
yourself who are doing similarwork.
You know different spheres ofinfluence typically and I'm like
, oh, there's other people whoget this, there's other people
who value this at the level thatyou know, that I do, and are
making huge impacts in yourcorners of the world, and so
(03:43):
thanks for joining us.
I'd love for you to telleverybody about your background
and your passion for employeeexperience and just kind of give
us, give us, the backstory abit so that we can catch up and
really dig into the conversationtoday.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh sure, and thank you for that.
You know, when people ask mewhat I do, the shortest, best
answer I've come up with is Iteach leaders how to be better
bosses and how to create theconditions at work for people to
thrive.
And I spent a number of years asthe head of learning and
development for physicianservices at one of the largest
healthcare systems here on theEast Coast, and then I went out
(04:18):
on my own about 10 years ago andcreated essentially a boutique
training firm where I was doingthat kind of work, predominantly
in healthcare at first, becausethat's my background, but then
a few years ago we opened up ourborders and and so I really I
speak and write about commitmentin the workplace, and that's
why these conversations are sofun, because I get to nerd out
(04:39):
with other people who love thatstuff and and and play around in
the psychology of what makespeople love a job, what makes
people come to work and give itall they've got, what are the
habits and routines and theinteractions that we need to
have as leaders to make thatpossible for people.
So most of my work is thesedays is is as a keynote speaker
(04:59):
and as a trainer and consultantfor organizations.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I love that.
Where did that interest emergefor you?
I don't you know.
Maybe maybe you always knewthis is what I want to do, but
for me it was.
I was doing a different careerand all of a sudden I discovered
, oh, I actually love theleadership, the people
development, the bringing a teamtogether and aligning them to
achieve a mission and, you know,and unleashing them to do that
(05:24):
in a way that energizes them.
And so I'd be curious for youdid you kind of stumble into
that being a passion point foryou, or did you know that pretty
early on?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You know it's funny.
I had these two very disparatecareer paths that came together,
I think, to make me good atwhat I'm doing, what I do now.
So I originally went toundergrad to get a degree in the
performing arts.
I have actually a bachelor'sdegree in music and theater
because I wanted to be onBroadway.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
But then, coming out of college, I got so involved in
student affairs and workingaround leadership on campus that
I ended up having a 10-yearcareer in student affairs and
higher education and then Imoved into the healthcare world.
But for almost 30 years now,everything I've ever done has
been about being in front of aroom of people and creating
(06:13):
programming that they findcompelling, and as I've done so
many different things aroundthat, especially in the student
affairs space, I sort of fell inlove with that psychology piece
of how do you translate reallycomplex ideas around people into
simple ideas that they can useevery day.
And that student affairs careerseemed to prepare me really well
(06:33):
, because when I moved over andjoined the HR team at a large
healthcare system it was sort oflike well, what do you mean?
We're not talking with leadersabout what people's needs and
wants and desires are at workand how we can give that to them
and the results that we canproduce on our teams if we do it
well.
And so I married together thatsort of interest in the
(06:53):
psychology of it with thatperformance aspect and ended up
in the training space.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, love that so much.
It's so fascinating to me howwe get there and if I had it to
do over again, I would just goback and take everything in
psychology I could, just becauseyou know, just the
understanding of how people work, how they think, like that's
just become such a passion pointfor me and helping motivate and
(07:19):
engage people.
So so, yeah, I was just curious.
I was like, oh, I want to hearthe back story there of how you
got to here.
Now I've heard you say so.
I can't wait until I get theopportunity to see you speak in
person, because I've watchedsome of your speaking online and
you are such a fantasticspeaker.
But one of the talks I heardyou say stop blaming people and
(07:41):
start fixing work and that kindof stopped me on my track.
So I was like I need you totell us more about that thought.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, how many times have you heard someone say no
one wants to work anymore?
How many?
Times have you heard someonesay oh, these kids, today,
they're, they're entitled, rightit's a work ethic.
The problem with people now iswork ethic and you know I hate I
tell audiences this all thetime that you know I hate to
break it to you, but everycomplaint you have about the
younger people coming in behindyou are the same complaints
(08:09):
people had about you.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
About you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You got here right.
It's youth right, but that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I maybe one of the videos you saw.
I was sharing a story about alocal business owner in my
community who is constantlyposting on Facebook that he has
open positions for thebusinesses that he owns, and he
always does it the same way.
He says need to find good people, no one wants to work.
And then he lists the pay andthe hours Uh-huh, and they're
not great.
And it's been a reallyinteresting thing to watch
(08:40):
members of the community comeback and comment and say no, no,
no time out, hold on, it's notthat nobody wants to work, it's
that nobody wants to work foryou and that's not the same
thing and we really want this tobe the story.
When we have a hard timefilling positions, we want to
say that it's people and we wantto say that it's work ethic.
But this idea of no one wantsto work is actually one of the
(09:02):
most biased, persistentgenerational tropes in human
history.
In the research that we weredoing for this new book that has
come out, we actually found aprofessor in Canada who has
studied this trope this trope noone wants to work and has found
instances of it showing up inNorth American newspapers every
year, going back 120 years.
(09:22):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, there's a mindset shiftthat needs to take place and it
really comes down to there is nostaffing shortage, there's a
great job shortage.
And when you do that, when youshift that mindset away from
blaming people, you turn themirror inward and you actually
start fixing the problems thatyour organization has as an
(09:43):
employer or that maybe youperpetuate as a leader that
pushes people out of anorganization.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, that's such a I mean I love just kind of a wake
up call to us there, becauseit's so easy to point the finger
at well, this generation justdoesn't, or whatever the excuse
is, and it's fascinating to hearokay, that's going back over
100 years, Like we've beensaying this about the incoming
generation.
Every generation is saying thatabout the one coming up behind
(10:11):
them, and but I think theperspective as a leader to be
willing to say, okay, what mightwe need to change, what might
be not quite right in ourleadership or in our culture as
an organization that is notactually retaining great folks
or attracting great folks, andyou know, and the it doesn't
(10:34):
take long to do the numbers andrealize that you know a little
better, pay a lot more attentionto your culture and the
environment you're creating inthe workplace, and even that a
little bit more expense, thereis a lot of savings over the
turnover.
That the cost of turnover Fairenough, no, question?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Absolutely.
You know we we don't see theinvisible costs of turnover on a
balance sheet right.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
We all.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We've all heard that it costs between one half and
two times the cost of someone'ssalary to replace them.
We also don't see the thelowering of the morale and the
increase in burnout.
There you go.
The other people who areabsorbing that work are taking
on when we can't fill thosepositions.
But you remember, you mentionednumbers, Jenni, and that's the
other part of this argument,that or this moment that we're
in, that I think people aren'tnecessarily plugged into when
(11:22):
they say no one wants to work orwe can't find good people.
There are.
We continue to add jobs to oureconomy at a breakneck pace and
we know that, for example, herein the United States,
unemployment is near record lows.
There have only been threemonths in the last 50 years
where it's lower than it isright now.
There is not an invisible massof people who have decided to
(11:47):
stop working, who are sittingthis one out right.
There just simply aren't enoughpeople to fill all the jobs
that we've added to our economy.
So when you say no one wants towork, it really is no, it's
that they don't want to work foryou.
And so we have these twocompeting identities right now
in the workplace.
We have departure organizationsand destination workplaces.
Oh yeah, and when we see so much, movement taking place across
(12:11):
the labor market, we can startto carve out what the identities
of each one of those are.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, that's big right there.
Departure organizations ordestination workplaces, that's
what you said, right.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So we almost need to evaluate which one of those are
we.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right, absolutely, or we need to choose that identity
.
So here's what's actuallyhappening in the labor market.
When we see this right now,we've been hearing terms like
the great resignation for acouple of years now.
When you ask people when didthat start, this idea that
everybody's quitting?
That actually started in 2010here in the United States.
We think it has started sinceCOVID, right.
(12:51):
But something interestinghappened after the great
recession in 2008.
In 2009, 2 million more peoplevoluntarily left their positions
than the year before.
Then it happened again in 2010,and then it happened again in
2011.
You can look at the jobs datafrom the US government.
Every year since 2010, thenumber of people who voluntarily
left their jobs has increased.
(13:11):
It was 28 million in 2010.
It was 50 million last year.
But here's the other crazy partof this During that exact same
time period, there was 50percent more hiring than there
was quitting.
With that data, what's clear isthat people aren't actually
quitting this idea of the greatresignation.
That's only half the story.
People are switching.
That's yeah.
More specifically, they'reupgrading.
(13:33):
When you ask people why are youchanging jobs, what you hear
are a whole host of answers Ineed better pay, I need a better
schedule.
I need a better boss, a lesstoxic workplace, more fulfilling
work.
I want a better commute.
I want more opportunity.
We can rattle off a dozenanswers, but they all roll up to
(13:53):
a single bigger idea, which isreally about quality of life.
Yeah, there's a massiverecalibration taking place right
now around how work fits intopeople's lives.
It's resulting in people goinginto the labor market and
looking for an upgrade.
We have to, if we're anemployer, choose an identity.
Are we going to be the upgrade?
If so, that's what makes us adestination workplace.
(14:15):
We have to engineer theconditions that provide the
quality of life that people arelooking for.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
That is so helpful.
How do you coach leaders thatsay, okay, yes, we definitely
want to be the upgrade, butwhere do I even start?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, we analyze more than 200 research studies and
articles on why people quit ajob or take a new job or decide
to stay in an organization.
This really came out of thework that I was doing around.
Where does commitment come fromin the workplace?
What leads people to stay?
Trying to answer that questionreally took us on this
(14:53):
remarkable journey that resultedin this new book.
I can tell you with convictionthat you become a destination
workplace when you win in threespecific areas of the employee
experience.
We call them ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
We know and this is my onesentence answer If your
listeners only remember onesentence from this conversation
(15:16):
today, at least on my side of it, I hope the sentences
commitment and retention appearwhen employees are in their
ideal job doing meaningful workfor a great boss, that's so
great there are dimensions tothis, though, and you know that
right, you've been doing thiswork for a long time.
The dimensions to ideal job areabout compensation, workload and
flexibility.
If you get my money right, ifmy workload is right and I have
(15:38):
some flexibility around when,where and how I work, that is my
ideal job.
It fits into my life like apuzzle piece, snapping into
place For meaningful work.
It's purpose, strengths andbelonging.
I believe my work matters.
It aligns with my gifts and I'ma part of a team where I'm
accepted and celebrated.
My work is meaningful and Iwant to do it.
That's good.
(15:58):
Then that great boss factor hasthree dimensions as well.
We know there are a lot ofthings you have to get right to
be considered a great boss.
We think the three mostimportant are trust, coaching
and advocacy.
If my boss grants and earnstrust.
If they coach me and theyadvocate for me, that person is
filling that role.
I've got a great boss.
We put all three of thosethings together.
(16:20):
We say if you're providingsomeone their ideal job, doing
meaningful work for a great boss, you are a destination
workplace for them.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, wow, that's powerful.
I bet everybody listening goingokay, that makes sense, that
makes sense.
We hear a lot of language aboutthe workplaces changed so much
in the last few years.
Certainly, the expectationsaround more flexibility, the
hybrid work and theconversations around that are
bananas right now, becauseyou've got people trying to pull
everybody back in.
What are you noticing aboutthat?
(16:49):
What if that is true?
What if that is overdramatized?
What do you see from yourperspective?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
This goes right to that quality of life piece.
Yes, I remember the CEO ofMicrosoft said in 2020, boy, we
just experienced two years ofdigital transformation in two
months.
It's so true because we hadpeople who had to figure out how
to do their jobs from home inremote work.
We all learned Zoom prettyquick, didn't we?
The reality is, for a lot offolks, they have proven that
(17:19):
they can do great work in aremote environment.
Their quality of life as aresult for so many folks has
improved.
We see people who are workingfrom home now talk about the
money.
They're saving the time.
They're saving the wear andtear on their car.
I'm not buying unhealthy foodat all the restaurants near the
office.
I'm cooking healthier food formyself at home.
(17:41):
I'm able to be in the drivewaywhen my kids get off the bus,
and I was never able to do thatbefore.
The friction around return towork is about lowering people's
quality of life without having aconversation with them about it
and ignoring that.
That's what we're doing.
There you go.
I was just engaged in an onlineconversation on LinkedIn about
(18:02):
this the other day of folks whowere talking about my company is
mandating that I'm coming backto the office.
They're adding a two-hourcommute, they're adding an extra
expense to my life that I'venot had for three years.
I'm going to spend more moneyon parking, on gas, on food.
And what people fail torecognize is that anytime you
(18:23):
lower your employmentrequirements, lower someone's
quality of life, you're creatinga flight risk.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's really good.
That's really good.
Yeah, you're creating a flightrisk when you lower their
quality of life.
So how do you coach the leaderwho's like but gosh, I feel like
, because we're not with eachother, like and feel like our
culture is suffering, I feellike we're not having the
connectivity or theopportunities for innovation and
so some of that draw thatleaders feel to get everybody
(18:54):
back together.
How do you manage that tension?
What's your, what's yourrecommendation there?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, I'm very much a centrist on the whole work from
home conversation.
I'm not one of these folks whoinsists that every job can be
done from home and there's nevera reason to get together.
To your point.
There are a lot of things or alot of benefits that employers
have every right to ask for.
By asking people to gatherright, we get creativity, we get
innovation, we get camaraderieand connection and relationships
(19:20):
, and all of these influence thequality of our work product and
our services delivery.
What tends to be lacking andwhat I would coach leaders to
think about is are you invitingyour employees to be a part of
the conversation, to shape yourreturn to office or your work
from home policies In the weekthat we're recording this?
The Smuckers Company out of Ohiohas been all over the news this
(19:44):
week because they have createda return to work set up that
their employees actually like,and it's because they co-created
it with them.
They created a model where theyidentified 22 weeks out of the
year that they called core weeks, and then they asked their
employees to be on site for, Ibelieve, half of them, and you
get to choose which of the 11 ofthe 22 core weeks, or maybe
(20:06):
it's most of them.
I don't know exactly what it is, but the point is that they
co-created it and so there was ameeting in the middle right.
It is absolutely within theright of an employer to say you
know we're going to need you onsite from time to time.
But it's also realistic foremployees to say look, we've
proven we can do this now.
Please don't take some thingsaway that we have come to really
(20:28):
experience this quality of lifemeasures.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good.
I was that.
That's kind of where my mindwas going when you started
talking about that.
I was like I think it has to dowith hey, let's have the
conversation together, so we'regetting the perspective of the
employee.
Like you talked about theflight risk thing, if we're
lowering their quality of lifeand we're not even thinking
about that, it's not on ourradar right, like we're you know
, and so if we're in theconversation with them, we've
(20:51):
got more perspective on that.
So that's a fascinating example.
I'm curious about the great boss.
Part of the equation that youshared and in one of the maybe
concerns that I've heard overthe last couple of years
especially with hybrid work,more remote work is it has, in
(21:14):
my opinion, it's put morepressure on managers to lead
better, and I think sometimes wewere lazy leaders because
people were just in proximity tous and so now it's requiring
more of us.
So I think the easy waysometimes is just well, let's
just get everybody back here,because then at least they're
here and they're in front of meand I know what they're doing
(21:36):
and you know it kind of makes iteasier for me as their manager.
So is that what you're seeingis like is my perception of that
right, and what do we need todo to help equip managers to
lead remote workers better?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yes, yes and yes.
So I think what you justdescribed is very common, even
if some managers don't givevoice to it.
I think both the work from homedebate and the what should I be
doing as a mid level orfrontline leader if I'm managing
remote workers, our actions canend up being rooted in fear and
(22:16):
mistrust.
Right.
We sometimes have the beliefthat if people aren't monitored,
if we don't know what they'redoing and when they're doing it,
that they're going to be doinglaundry and watching Netflix.
And so we end up imposing all ofthese systems and processes and
monitoring software on alargely ethical group of people
(22:36):
out of fear of the rare badApple, and it sends a really
powerful message to our teams,which is that we don't trust you
, right, which lowers morale andincreases disengagement.
And so what we're seeing, andwhat's really interesting, is
that Gallup, for example, hasbeen doing research on remote
work before any of us knew whatZoom was, and have consistently
(22:57):
found that remote workers canactually have higher levels of
engagement than on-site workers,as long as they get ongoing
feedback from their directsupervisor.
And so the advice that I wouldgive to managers who are trying
to lead effectively in a remoteenvironment is we need to think
differently about how people'sperformance is going to be
measured, right, it used to bein routines and projects and
(23:22):
maybe benchmarks along certainproject lines, but we actually
need to think of it more interms of outputs, and we need to
be willing to trust people toget to their work product in
their own way, and if they'restruggling to do that
effectively, we can coach them.
But we need leaders and theirdirect reports to actually
engage in ongoing conversationsto define what the output should
be, to determine howperformance is going to be
(23:45):
measured in an environment wherewe don't necessarily see each
other all the time or only havea certain number of touch points
.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
That's really good, super helpful.
I just think it's forcing us,as leaders, to think differently
, to think better about OK, howdo we do this?
In this context, we just youknow, for most of us that have a
few years of experience underour belt, frankly, I have the
benefit of when I startedForesight it was seven years ago
(24:12):
and so we started fully remotework before everybody was forced
to go to remote work, so I hadto kind of figure it out a
little bit ahead, but itchallenged my just normal
behaviors as a leader.
I had to think differentlyabout how do I lead a team
that's fully remote?
How do I and here we are acompany that focuses on creating
(24:33):
healthy culture, and I'm likehow, how do I create healthy
culture with a team I never seebeyond a Zoom screen, and so it
gave us a little bit of a leg upthen when our clients were
trying to navigate that throughthe last few years.
But it does.
It really challenges yourskills as a leader and as a
people manager, and I thinkthat's important for us to be
aware of and just be intentionalabout.
What are those things we needto think differently about?
(24:55):
I love how you said thinkingdifferently about even how to
measure performance.
You know the metrics are a bitdifferent, really valuable.
Ok, you have a new bookEmployalty and making sure I get
that right, because it's easyto say it wrong Employalty.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
You nailed it.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Good job I want to hear about it.
Tell us more about the book.
You gave us a couple of littlesneak peeks in some of the
conversation so far, but tell usmore about the book.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So we're playing a little bit of a trick on readers
, right?
You hear the word employaltyand you think, oh, this is going
to be a book about employeeloyalty.
But when you get into the book,what we reveal is that the word
employalty is a portmanteau ofthe words employer loyalty and
humanity.
We know that it is harder thanever before right now to find
and keep devoted employees, inpart because there is this sort
(25:41):
of reckoning taking place aroundhow work fits into our lives.
But also a lot of leaders stilldon't know or engineer the
conditions at work that leadpeople to want to be on a team
and to give it all they've got.
And so when we did all thatresearch and we analyzed the
sort of internal psychologicalscorecard that every employee
(26:02):
has, what are the experiencesthat I need to have consistently
that make me move from?
I have to be here, I have to dothis work to.
I want to be here, I want to dothis work we ended up
identifying those three areas,those three big factors that I
talked about ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
But even inherent in all ofthat is this bigger idea of a
(26:26):
more humane employee experience.
Because when you look at what'sbeen happening in the labor
market these last 15 years.
We do see people who arerejecting overwork, who are
rejecting burnout, who arerejecting being underpaid.
They've said I can no longerinteract with my employer when
my employer treats me as acommodity, and so our definition
(26:48):
of employalty is it's thecommitment that employers make
to a more humane employeeexperience, because that's what
leads to commitment at work.
And then the whole rest of thebook is that framework that we
talked about around ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So good, so good.
Okay, I have one more likelittle tangent.
I want to go on before I wrapthis up.
Today, you share a lot aboutthe four day work week and how
that can give us a competitiveadvantage, and so I know there's
curiosity around this, butthere are so many folks that are
like God, can we do that?
How would we do that?
What does that look like?
(27:23):
So I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit of your
thoughts about that.
The four day work week.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, sure.
So one of the dimensions thatwe write about for a more humane
employee experience is aboutworkload Right, that for years
we have continued to seeworkloads explode and that the
work of three then became thework of two, then became the
work of one, and that one personis really now doing the work of
three.
And so, as we see employeeschasing better quality of life,
(27:52):
better work life balance, weknow that four day work weeks
are an evidence based way thatemployers could give back some
time and some quality of life toemployees.
And, especially because we'vebeen studying four day work
weeks now for more than a decadeacross the globe, we have a ton
of pilots and research projectsaround this and there's a
perception that it's coming, andthe truth is it's here.
(28:13):
We actually wrote in the bookabout a whole host of companies
in the US that have been doingfour day work weeks for a while.
What the misperception is isthat you are cramming a bunch of
work and lesser pay into thatsame model, but it's not
necessarily true.
The four day work week pilotsthat have shown the most success
have typically averaged about36 to 37 hours a week, and
(28:37):
you're still getting a full timesalary and benefits.
It's just across four daysinstead of five, and what ends
up happening is, first of all,the organization has to figure
out how to work smarter, and sothere's a sort of trimming of
the fat right.
Are these meetings necessary?
Is this travel necessary?
Are we going to take on all ofthese projects in Q3, or should
we pare down to the two that aremost important so we work
(28:57):
smarter?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
than discipline.
There organizationally Say thatagain.
There's some discipline thereorganizationally.
The organization is taking onthe responsibility of get, like
you said, working smarter.
That's interesting.
Sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's okay, but it brings a greater question too.
If a really hard challenge isfinding and keeping devoted
employees, is that discipline alittle bit of a lesser hard
challenge?
Because if it is, then nowyou've identified a tactic that
makes it easier to find and keeppeople.
But the other thing that we seehappening with four-day work
weeks is when you give peoplesome time back in their lives
and you ease the pressures andthe burdens of them having to
(29:33):
manage their life outside ofwork, they become more committed
to your organization.
Right when their commitmentgoes up, when their happiness
goes up, their effort goes up.
So you're super chargingcommitment in your workplace.
When you do that, every metricthat you care about goes up.
One of the misperceptions aboutfour-day work weeks is if I'm
going to move to a four-day workweek, does that mean I have to
be open less or that we're goingto serve fewer customers?
(29:56):
None of that is true.
You can operate a seven-day aweek business with just
staggered staffing schedules.
We've seen hospitals do thisfor years for nurses, for
example.
As a tactic for the largerstrategy around workload
management and better quality oflife, four-day work weeks are
(30:16):
absolutely worth a look.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
That's fascinating.
Everybody needs to go getemployability.
They need to go check out thebook.
Tell us how to connect morewith you, Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That's so generous.
Thank you.
Employability is availableanywhere you like to get your
business books.
You can get it on Amazon, youcan get it at Barnes Noble.
If you'd like to support yourlocal independent bookstore, you
can go to indybound.
org and source the book fromthere.
You can find me over at joemull.
com.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Perfect.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us, just investing your
insight and wisdom to us asleaders today.
We'll be sure to link to all ofthose resources in the show
notes, and thanks again, joe.
This was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
My absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having such a goodconversation and being such a
generous host.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
All right, friends, I know that probably got your
wheels turning, probably madeyou a little uncomfortable here
and there, just of differentways that we have to think as
leaders to lead in our currentenvironment.
So I would love to know whatyou heard, send us your feedback
.
You can reach out to us atGetForesight on all the social
channels, at GetForesight, G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t, or
(31:32):
you can find me at Jenni Catron, j-e-n-n-i-c-a-t-r-o-n.
Be sure to check out joemull.
com and all of his resources andif you liked what you heard
here, if it got you thinking,share it with a friend, share it
with another coworker, maybesomebody on your leadership team
, maybe you're having some ofthese conversations and hearing
(31:55):
Joe's perspective would bevaluable to just kind of
kickstart some additionalconversation.
I am so glad you are here andyou're joining me every week to
keep learning and growing andworking together to figure out
how do we lead culture.
Well, if we can do anything foryou, help you in any way,
please don't hesitate to reachout at podcast, at Get4Sight.
(32:17):
com, and if there's somebody youthink I should talk to, if you
know somebody who has donereally good work in their
culture, like they have workedhard, they have a healthy and
thriving team.
I wanna hear their story, soshare that with me at podcast at
Get4Sight.
com.
All right gang, thank you somuch for listening today.
(32:38):
Keep leading well and we willsee you next week.
Hey friends, I'm your host, Jenny Catron, and welcome
to the Lead Culture Podcast,part of the Art of Leadership
Network.
Now, my goal here is to coachyou to lead yourself well so you
can lead others better.
My team and I at the 4SightGroup are committed to building
confident leaders, extraordinaryteams and thriving cultures.
(00:35):
Each week, we'll take a deepdive into a leadership or
culture topic that will give youthe tools you need to lead with
clarity and confidence andbuild a thriving team.
Today on the podcast, my guestis Joe Mull.
Known as a dynamic, engagingspeaker, Joe Mull teaches
(00:57):
leaders and business owners howto be better bosses and make
work work for all.
He's the author of three booksCure for the Common Leader, No
More Team Drama and his latestbook, Employalty: How to Ignite
Commitment and Keep Top Talentin the New Age of Work.
(01:17):
He's the founder of Boss BetterLeadership Academy and the host
of the globally popular BossBetter Now podcast, which is
ranked in the top 100 of allmanagement podcasts.
As a thought leader and subjectmatter expert, Joe brings
decades of real world experienceto his writing and speaking.
(01:38):
He previously served as head oflearning and development for
physician services at theUniversity of Pittsburgh Medical
Center, where he directedlearning strategy and
implementation for one of thelargest physician groups in the
US.
Prior to his years of servicein healthcare, he spent a decade
working in leadership andprogram development roles in
(02:00):
student affairs and highereducation.
Joe is a sought after speaker.
He is a phenomenal writer andtoday we have a fantastic
conversation around the world ofwork and you're going to hear
from Joe sharing how to be adestination workplace.
I love so much his thoughts onjust the reality of the
(02:24):
workplace dynamic that we're allnavigating and he says stop
blaming people and start fixingwork.
So we dig into that.
Today I asked him about thatstatement in particular.
We talked about how to be thatdestination workplace.
He shares three things we needto provide to be the upgrade
employees are looking for.
And then, you guys, we dig intothe four day work week and why
(02:47):
it's a competitive advantage.
So here's my conversation withJoe Moll.
Joe, thanks so much for joiningme today.
Just in our pre conversationfree, free podcast conversation
(03:08):
I was like, oh, we're going to.
This is going to be fun, I'mlooking forward to this.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Jenni, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm so excited for thisconversation.
Just like you said, I think thework that we each do is going
to make this a fun one.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
You know, one of the things I have loved about
podcasting is I end up gettingconnected to people like
yourself who are doing similarwork.
You know different spheres ofinfluence typically and I'm like
, oh, there's other people whoget this, there's other people
who value this at the level thatyou know, that I do, and are
making huge impacts in yourcorners of the world, and so
(03:43):
thanks for joining us.
I'd love for you to telleverybody about your background
and your passion for employeeexperience and just kind of give
us, give us, the backstory abit so that we can catch up and
really dig into the conversationtoday.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Oh sure, and thank you for that.
You know, when people ask mewhat I do, the shortest, best
answer I've come up with is Iteach leaders how to be better
bosses and how to create theconditions at work for people to
thrive.
And I spent a number of years asthe head of learning and
development for physicianservices at one of the largest
healthcare systems here on theEast Coast, and then I went out
(04:18):
on my own about 10 years ago andcreated essentially a boutique
training firm where I was doingthat kind of work, predominantly
in healthcare at first, becausethat's my background, but then
a few years ago we opened up ourborders and and so I really I
speak and write about commitmentin the workplace, and that's
why these conversations are sofun, because I get to nerd out
(04:39):
with other people who love thatstuff and and and play around in
the psychology of what makespeople love a job, what makes
people come to work and give itall they've got, what are the
habits and routines and theinteractions that we need to
have as leaders to make thatpossible for people.
So most of my work is thesedays is is as a keynote speaker
(04:59):
and as a trainer and consultantfor organizations.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
I love that.
Where did that interest emergefor you?
I don't you know.
Maybe maybe you always knewthis is what I want to do, but
for me it was.
I was doing a different careerand all of a sudden I discovered
, oh, I actually love theleadership, the people
development, the bringing a teamtogether and aligning them to
achieve a mission and, you know,and unleashing them to do that
(05:24):
in a way that energizes them.
And so I'd be curious for youdid you kind of stumble into
that being a passion point foryou, or did you know that pretty
early on?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You know it's funny.
I had these two very disparatecareer paths that came together,
I think, to make me good atwhat I'm doing, what I do now.
So I originally went toundergrad to get a degree in the
performing arts.
I have actually a bachelor'sdegree in music and theater
because I wanted to be onBroadway.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
But then, coming out of college, I got so involved in
student affairs and workingaround leadership on campus that
I ended up having a 10-yearcareer in student affairs and
higher education and then Imoved into the healthcare world.
But for almost 30 years now,everything I've ever done has
been about being in front of aroom of people and creating
(06:13):
programming that they findcompelling, and as I've done so
many different things aroundthat, especially in the student
affairs space, I sort of fell inlove with that psychology piece
of how do you translate reallycomplex ideas around people into
simple ideas that they can useevery day.
And that student affairs careerseemed to prepare me really well
(06:33):
, because when I moved over andjoined the HR team at a large
healthcare system it was sort oflike well, what do you mean?
We're not talking with leadersabout what people's needs and
wants and desires are at workand how we can give that to them
and the results that we canproduce on our teams if we do it
well.
And so I married together thatsort of interest in the
(06:53):
psychology of it with thatperformance aspect and ended up
in the training space.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, love that so much.
It's so fascinating to me howwe get there and if I had it to
do over again, I would just goback and take everything in
psychology I could, just becauseyou know, just the
understanding of how people work, how they think, like that's
just become such a passion pointfor me and helping motivate and
(07:19):
engage people.
So so, yeah, I was just curious.
I was like, oh, I want to hearthe back story there of how you
got to here.
Now I've heard you say so.
I can't wait until I get theopportunity to see you speak in
person, because I've watchedsome of your speaking online and
you are such a fantasticspeaker.
But one of the talks I heardyou say stop blaming people and
(07:41):
start fixing work and that kindof stopped me on my track.
So I was like I need you totell us more about that thought.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, how many times have you heard someone say no
one wants to work anymore?
How many?
Times have you heard someonesay oh, these kids, today,
they're, they're entitled, rightit's a work ethic.
The problem with people now iswork ethic and you know I hate I
tell audiences this all thetime that you know I hate to
break it to you, but everycomplaint you have about the
younger people coming in behindyou are the same complaints
(08:09):
people had about you.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
About you.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
You got here right.
It's youth right, but that's sogood.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I maybe one of the videos you saw.
I was sharing a story about alocal business owner in my
community who is constantlyposting on Facebook that he has
open positions for thebusinesses that he owns, and he
always does it the same way.
He says need to find good people, no one wants to work.
And then he lists the pay andthe hours Uh-huh, and they're
not great.
And it's been a reallyinteresting thing to watch
(08:40):
members of the community comeback and comment and say no, no,
no time out, hold on, it's notthat nobody wants to work, it's
that nobody wants to work foryou and that's not the same
thing and we really want this tobe the story.
When we have a hard timefilling positions, we want to
say that it's people and we wantto say that it's work ethic.
But this idea of no one wantsto work is actually one of the
(09:02):
most biased, persistentgenerational tropes in human
history.
In the research that we weredoing for this new book that has
come out, we actually found aprofessor in Canada who has
studied this trope this trope noone wants to work and has found
instances of it showing up inNorth American newspapers every
year, going back 120 years.
(09:22):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, there's a mindset shiftthat needs to take place and it
really comes down to there is nostaffing shortage, there's a
great job shortage.
And when you do that, when youshift that mindset away from
blaming people, you turn themirror inward and you actually
start fixing the problems thatyour organization has as an
(09:43):
employer or that maybe youperpetuate as a leader that
pushes people out of anorganization.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, that's such a I mean I love just kind of a wake
up call to us there, becauseit's so easy to point the finger
at well, this generation justdoesn't, or whatever the excuse
is, and it's fascinating to hearokay, that's going back over
100 years, Like we've beensaying this about the incoming
generation.
Every generation is saying thatabout the one coming up behind
(10:11):
them, and but I think theperspective as a leader to be
willing to say, okay, what mightwe need to change, what might
be not quite right in ourleadership or in our culture as
an organization that is notactually retaining great folks
or attracting great folks, andyou know, and the it doesn't
(10:34):
take long to do the numbers andrealize that you know a little
better, pay a lot more attentionto your culture and the
environment you're creating inthe workplace, and even that a
little bit more expense, thereis a lot of savings over the
turnover.
That the cost of turnover Fairenough, no, question?
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Absolutely.
You know we we don't see theinvisible costs of turnover on a
balance sheet right.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
We all.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
We've all heard that it costs between one half and
two times the cost of someone'ssalary to replace them.
We also don't see the thelowering of the morale and the
increase in burnout.
There you go.
The other people who areabsorbing that work are taking
on when we can't fill thosepositions.
But you remember, you mentionednumbers, Jenni, and that's the
other part of this argument,that or this moment that we're
in, that I think people aren'tnecessarily plugged into when
(11:22):
they say no one wants to work orwe can't find good people.
There are.
We continue to add jobs to oureconomy at a breakneck pace and
we know that, for example, herein the United States,
unemployment is near record lows.
There have only been threemonths in the last 50 years
where it's lower than it isright now.
There is not an invisible massof people who have decided to
(11:47):
stop working, who are sittingthis one out right.
There just simply aren't enoughpeople to fill all the jobs
that we've added to our economy.
So when you say no one wants towork, it really is no, it's
that they don't want to work foryou.
And so we have these twocompeting identities right now
in the workplace.
We have departure organizationsand destination workplaces.
Oh yeah, and when we see so much, movement taking place across
(12:11):
the labor market, we can startto carve out what the identities
of each one of those are.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, that's big right there.
Departure organizations ordestination workplaces, that's
what you said, right.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
So we almost need to evaluate which one of those are
we.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Right, absolutely, or we need to choose that identity
.
So here's what's actuallyhappening in the labor market.
When we see this right now,we've been hearing terms like
the great resignation for acouple of years now.
When you ask people when didthat start, this idea that
everybody's quitting?
That actually started in 2010here in the United States.
We think it has started sinceCOVID, right.
(12:51):
But something interestinghappened after the great
recession in 2008.
In 2009, 2 million more peoplevoluntarily left their positions
than the year before.
Then it happened again in 2010,and then it happened again in
2011.
You can look at the jobs datafrom the US government.
Every year since 2010, thenumber of people who voluntarily
left their jobs has increased.
(13:11):
It was 28 million in 2010.
It was 50 million last year.
But here's the other crazy partof this During that exact same
time period, there was 50percent more hiring than there
was quitting.
With that data, what's clear isthat people aren't actually
quitting this idea of the greatresignation.
That's only half the story.
People are switching.
That's yeah.
More specifically, they'reupgrading.
(13:33):
When you ask people why are youchanging jobs, what you hear
are a whole host of answers Ineed better pay, I need a better
schedule.
I need a better boss, a lesstoxic workplace, more fulfilling
work.
I want a better commute.
I want more opportunity.
We can rattle off a dozenanswers, but they all roll up to
(13:53):
a single bigger idea, which isreally about quality of life.
Yeah, there's a massiverecalibration taking place right
now around how work fits intopeople's lives.
It's resulting in people goinginto the labor market and
looking for an upgrade.
We have to, if we're anemployer, choose an identity.
Are we going to be the upgrade?
If so, that's what makes us adestination workplace.
(14:15):
We have to engineer theconditions that provide the
quality of life that people arelooking for.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
That is so helpful.
How do you coach leaders thatsay, okay, yes, we definitely
want to be the upgrade, butwhere do I even start?
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, we analyze more than 200 research studies and
articles on why people quit ajob or take a new job or decide
to stay in an organization.
This really came out of thework that I was doing around.
Where does commitment come fromin the workplace?
What leads people to stay?
Trying to answer that questionreally took us on this
(14:53):
remarkable journey that resultedin this new book.
I can tell you with convictionthat you become a destination
workplace when you win in threespecific areas of the employee
experience.
We call them ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
We know and this is my onesentence answer If your
listeners only remember onesentence from this conversation
(15:16):
today, at least on my side of it, I hope the sentences
commitment and retention appearwhen employees are in their
ideal job doing meaningful workfor a great boss, that's so
great there are dimensions tothis, though, and you know that
right, you've been doing thiswork for a long time.
The dimensions to ideal job areabout compensation, workload and
flexibility.
If you get my money right, ifmy workload is right and I have
(15:38):
some flexibility around when,where and how I work, that is my
ideal job.
It fits into my life like apuzzle piece, snapping into
place For meaningful work.
It's purpose, strengths andbelonging.
I believe my work matters.
It aligns with my gifts and I'ma part of a team where I'm
accepted and celebrated.
My work is meaningful and Iwant to do it.
That's good.
(15:58):
Then that great boss factor hasthree dimensions as well.
We know there are a lot ofthings you have to get right to
be considered a great boss.
We think the three mostimportant are trust, coaching
and advocacy.
If my boss grants and earnstrust.
If they coach me and theyadvocate for me, that person is
filling that role.
I've got a great boss.
We put all three of thosethings together.
(16:20):
We say if you're providingsomeone their ideal job, doing
meaningful work for a great boss, you are a destination
workplace for them.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, wow, that's powerful.
I bet everybody listening goingokay, that makes sense, that
makes sense.
We hear a lot of language aboutthe workplaces changed so much
in the last few years.
Certainly, the expectationsaround more flexibility, the
hybrid work and theconversations around that are
bananas right now, becauseyou've got people trying to pull
everybody back in.
What are you noticing aboutthat?
(16:49):
What if that is true?
What if that is overdramatized?
What do you see from yourperspective?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
This goes right to that quality of life piece.
Yes, I remember the CEO ofMicrosoft said in 2020, boy, we
just experienced two years ofdigital transformation in two
months.
It's so true because we hadpeople who had to figure out how
to do their jobs from home inremote work.
We all learned Zoom prettyquick, didn't we?
The reality is, for a lot offolks, they have proven that
(17:19):
they can do great work in aremote environment.
Their quality of life as aresult for so many folks has
improved.
We see people who are workingfrom home now talk about the
money.
They're saving the time.
They're saving the wear andtear on their car.
I'm not buying unhealthy foodat all the restaurants near the
office.
I'm cooking healthier food formyself at home.
(17:41):
I'm able to be in the drivewaywhen my kids get off the bus,
and I was never able to do thatbefore.
The friction around return towork is about lowering people's
quality of life without having aconversation with them about it
and ignoring that.
That's what we're doing.
There you go.
I was just engaged in an onlineconversation on LinkedIn about
(18:02):
this the other day of folks whowere talking about my company is
mandating that I'm coming backto the office.
They're adding a two-hourcommute, they're adding an extra
expense to my life that I'venot had for three years.
I'm going to spend more moneyon parking, on gas, on food.
And what people fail torecognize is that anytime you
(18:23):
lower your employmentrequirements, lower someone's
quality of life, you're creatinga flight risk.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
That's really good.
That's really good.
Yeah, you're creating a flightrisk when you lower their
quality of life.
So how do you coach the leaderwho's like but gosh, I feel like
, because we're not with eachother, like and feel like our
culture is suffering, I feellike we're not having the
connectivity or theopportunities for innovation and
so some of that draw thatleaders feel to get everybody
(18:54):
back together.
How do you manage that tension?
What's your, what's yourrecommendation there?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Yeah, I'm very much a centrist on the whole work from
home conversation.
I'm not one of these folks whoinsists that every job can be
done from home and there's nevera reason to get together.
To your point.
There are a lot of things or alot of benefits that employers
have every right to ask for.
By asking people to gatherright, we get creativity, we get
innovation, we get camaraderieand connection and relationships
(19:20):
, and all of these influence thequality of our work product and
our services delivery.
What tends to be lacking andwhat I would coach leaders to
think about is are you invitingyour employees to be a part of
the conversation, to shape yourreturn to office or your work
from home policies In the weekthat we're recording this?
The Smuckers Company out of Ohiohas been all over the news this
(19:44):
week because they have createda return to work set up that
their employees actually like,and it's because they co-created
it with them.
They created a model where theyidentified 22 weeks out of the
year that they called core weeks, and then they asked their
employees to be on site for, Ibelieve, half of them, and you
get to choose which of the 11 ofthe 22 core weeks, or maybe
(20:06):
it's most of them.
I don't know exactly what it is, but the point is that they
co-created it and so there was ameeting in the middle right.
It is absolutely within theright of an employer to say you
know we're going to need you onsite from time to time.
But it's also realistic foremployees to say look, we've
proven we can do this now.
Please don't take some thingsaway that we have come to really
(20:28):
experience this quality of lifemeasures.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, yeah, that's so good.
I was that.
That's kind of where my mindwas going when you started
talking about that.
I was like I think it has to dowith hey, let's have the
conversation together, so we'regetting the perspective of the
employee.
Like you talked about theflight risk thing, if we're
lowering their quality of lifeand we're not even thinking
about that, it's not on ourradar right, like we're you know
, and so if we're in theconversation with them, we've
(20:51):
got more perspective on that.
So that's a fascinating example.
I'm curious about the great boss.
Part of the equation that youshared and in one of the maybe
concerns that I've heard overthe last couple of years
especially with hybrid work,more remote work is it has, in
(21:14):
my opinion, it's put morepressure on managers to lead
better, and I think sometimes wewere lazy leaders because
people were just in proximity tous and so now it's requiring
more of us.
So I think the easy waysometimes is just well, let's
just get everybody back here,because then at least they're
here and they're in front of meand I know what they're doing
(21:36):
and you know it kind of makes iteasier for me as their manager.
So is that what you're seeingis like is my perception of that
right, and what do we need todo to help equip managers to
lead remote workers better?
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yes, yes and yes.
So I think what you justdescribed is very common, even
if some managers don't givevoice to it.
I think both the work from homedebate and the what should I be
doing as a mid level orfrontline leader if I'm managing
remote workers, our actions canend up being rooted in fear and
(22:16):
mistrust.
Right.
We sometimes have the beliefthat if people aren't monitored,
if we don't know what they'redoing and when they're doing it,
that they're going to be doinglaundry and watching Netflix.
And so we end up imposing all ofthese systems and processes and
monitoring software on alargely ethical group of people
(22:36):
out of fear of the rare badApple, and it sends a really
powerful message to our teams,which is that we don't trust you
, right, which lowers morale andincreases disengagement.
And so what we're seeing, andwhat's really interesting, is
that Gallup, for example, hasbeen doing research on remote
work before any of us knew whatZoom was, and have consistently
(22:57):
found that remote workers canactually have higher levels of
engagement than on-site workers,as long as they get ongoing
feedback from their directsupervisor.
And so the advice that I wouldgive to managers who are trying
to lead effectively in a remoteenvironment is we need to think
differently about how people'sperformance is going to be
measured, right, it used to bein routines and projects and
(23:22):
maybe benchmarks along certainproject lines, but we actually
need to think of it more interms of outputs, and we need to
be willing to trust people toget to their work product in
their own way, and if they'restruggling to do that
effectively, we can coach them.
But we need leaders and theirdirect reports to actually
engage in ongoing conversationsto define what the output should
be, to determine howperformance is going to be
(23:45):
measured in an environment wherewe don't necessarily see each
other all the time or only havea certain number of touch points
.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
That's really good, super helpful.
I just think it's forcing us,as leaders, to think differently
, to think better about OK, howdo we do this?
In this context, we just youknow, for most of us that have a
few years of experience underour belt, frankly, I have the
benefit of when I startedForesight it was seven years ago
(24:12):
and so we started fully remotework before everybody was forced
to go to remote work, so I hadto kind of figure it out a
little bit ahead, but itchallenged my just normal
behaviors as a leader.
I had to think differentlyabout how do I lead a team
that's fully remote?
How do I and here we are acompany that focuses on creating
(24:33):
healthy culture, and I'm likehow, how do I create healthy
culture with a team I never seebeyond a Zoom screen, and so it
gave us a little bit of a leg upthen when our clients were
trying to navigate that throughthe last few years.
But it does.
It really challenges yourskills as a leader and as a
people manager, and I thinkthat's important for us to be
aware of and just be intentionalabout.
What are those things we needto think differently about?
(24:55):
I love how you said thinkingdifferently about even how to
measure performance.
You know the metrics are a bitdifferent, really valuable.
Ok, you have a new bookEmployalty and making sure I get
that right, because it's easyto say it wrong Employalty.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
You nailed it.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Good job I want to hear about it.
Tell us more about the book.
You gave us a couple of littlesneak peeks in some of the
conversation so far, but tell usmore about the book.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
So we're playing a little bit of a trick on readers
, right?
You hear the word employaltyand you think, oh, this is going
to be a book about employeeloyalty.
But when you get into the book,what we reveal is that the word
employalty is a portmanteau ofthe words employer loyalty and
humanity.
We know that it is harder thanever before right now to find
and keep devoted employees, inpart because there is this sort
(25:41):
of reckoning taking place aroundhow work fits into our lives.
But also a lot of leaders stilldon't know or engineer the
conditions at work that leadpeople to want to be on a team
and to give it all they've got.
And so when we did all thatresearch and we analyzed the
sort of internal psychologicalscorecard that every employee
(26:02):
has, what are the experiencesthat I need to have consistently
that make me move from?
I have to be here, I have to dothis work to.
I want to be here, I want to dothis work we ended up
identifying those three areas,those three big factors that I
talked about ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
But even inherent in all ofthat is this bigger idea of a
(26:26):
more humane employee experience.
Because when you look at what'sbeen happening in the labor
market these last 15 years.
We do see people who arerejecting overwork, who are
rejecting burnout, who arerejecting being underpaid.
They've said I can no longerinteract with my employer when
my employer treats me as acommodity, and so our definition
(26:48):
of employalty is it's thecommitment that employers make
to a more humane employeeexperience, because that's what
leads to commitment at work.
And then the whole rest of thebook is that framework that we
talked about around ideal job,meaningful work and great boss.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
So good, so good.
Okay, I have one more likelittle tangent.
I want to go on before I wrapthis up.
Today, you share a lot aboutthe four day work week and how
that can give us a competitiveadvantage, and so I know there's
curiosity around this, butthere are so many folks that are
like God, can we do that?
How would we do that?
What does that look like?
(27:23):
So I'd love for you to justtell us a little bit of your
thoughts about that.
The four day work week.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, sure.
So one of the dimensions thatwe write about for a more humane
employee experience is aboutworkload Right, that for years
we have continued to seeworkloads explode and that the
work of three then became thework of two, then became the
work of one, and that one personis really now doing the work of
three.
And so, as we see employeeschasing better quality of life,
(27:52):
better work life balance, weknow that four day work weeks
are an evidence based way thatemployers could give back some
time and some quality of life toemployees.
And, especially because we'vebeen studying four day work
weeks now for more than a decadeacross the globe, we have a ton
of pilots and research projectsaround this and there's a
perception that it's coming, andthe truth is it's here.
(28:13):
We actually wrote in the bookabout a whole host of companies
in the US that have been doingfour day work weeks for a while.
What the misperception is isthat you are cramming a bunch of
work and lesser pay into thatsame model, but it's not
necessarily true.
The four day work week pilotsthat have shown the most success
have typically averaged about36 to 37 hours a week, and
(28:37):
you're still getting a full timesalary and benefits.
It's just across four daysinstead of five, and what ends
up happening is, first of all,the organization has to figure
out how to work smarter, and sothere's a sort of trimming of
the fat right.
Are these meetings necessary?
Is this travel necessary?
Are we going to take on all ofthese projects in Q3, or should
we pare down to the two that aremost important so we work
(28:57):
smarter?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
than discipline.
There organizationally Say thatagain.
There's some discipline thereorganizationally.
The organization is taking onthe responsibility of get, like
you said, working smarter.
That's interesting.
Sorry to cut you off.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's okay, but it brings a greater question too.
If a really hard challenge isfinding and keeping devoted
employees, is that discipline alittle bit of a lesser hard
challenge?
Because if it is, then nowyou've identified a tactic that
makes it easier to find and keeppeople.
But the other thing that we seehappening with four-day work
weeks is when you give peoplesome time back in their lives
and you ease the pressures andthe burdens of them having to
(29:33):
manage their life outside ofwork, they become more committed
to your organization.
Right when their commitmentgoes up, when their happiness
goes up, their effort goes up.
So you're super chargingcommitment in your workplace.
When you do that, every metricthat you care about goes up.
One of the misperceptions aboutfour-day work weeks is if I'm
going to move to a four-day workweek, does that mean I have to
be open less or that we're goingto serve fewer customers?
(29:56):
None of that is true.
You can operate a seven-day aweek business with just
staggered staffing schedules.
We've seen hospitals do thisfor years for nurses, for
example.
As a tactic for the largerstrategy around workload
management and better quality oflife, four-day work weeks are
(30:16):
absolutely worth a look.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
That's fascinating.
Everybody needs to go getemployability.
They need to go check out thebook.
Tell us how to connect morewith you, Joe.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
That's so generous.
Thank you.
Employability is availableanywhere you like to get your
business books.
You can get it on Amazon, youcan get it at Barnes Noble.
If you'd like to support yourlocal independent bookstore, you
can go to indybound.
org and source the book fromthere.
You can find me over at joemull.
com.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Perfect.
Thank you so much for sharingwith us, just investing your
insight and wisdom to us asleaders today.
We'll be sure to link to all ofthose resources in the show
notes, and thanks again, joe.
This was fantastic.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
My absolute pleasure.
Thanks for having such a goodconversation and being such a
generous host.
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
All right, friends, I know that probably got your
wheels turning, probably madeyou a little uncomfortable here
and there, just of differentways that we have to think as
leaders to lead in our currentenvironment.
So I would love to know whatyou heard, send us your feedback
.
You can reach out to us atGetForesight on all the social
channels, at GetForesight, G-E-T, the number four, s-i-g-h-t, or
(31:32):
you can find me at Jenni Catron, j-e-n-n-i-c-a-t-r-o-n.
Be sure to check out joemull.
com and all of his resources andif you liked what you heard
here, if it got you thinking,share it with a friend, share it
with another coworker, maybesomebody on your leadership team
, maybe you're having some ofthese conversations and hearing
(31:55):
Joe's perspective would bevaluable to just kind of
kickstart some additionalconversation.
I am so glad you are here andyou're joining me every week to
keep learning and growing andworking together to figure out
how do we lead culture.
Well, if we can do anything foryou, help you in any way,
please don't hesitate to reachout at podcast, at Get4Sight.
(32:17):
com, and if there's somebody youthink I should talk to, if you
know somebody who has donereally good work in their
culture, like they have workedhard, they have a healthy and
thriving team.
I wanna hear their story, soshare that with me at podcast at
Get4Sight.
com.
All right gang, thank you somuch for listening today.
(32:38):
Keep leading well and we willsee you next week.
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