May 5, 2025 • 25 mins
Some of you just want to be liked. Others of you are obsessed with the scoreboard. The crowd and the metrics shouldn't be your ultimate gauges of success or value. In this episode Lone Rock Leadership Cofounder Russ Hill explores where leaders seek validation and how this fundamental choice defines leadership effectiveness, sustainability, and ability to scale.
• First Leaders seek validation from the crowd, prioritizing harmony and being liked
• This approach creates pleasant environments but often fails to drive results
• Second Leaders seek validation from scoreboard metrics, authority, and status symbols
• While driving short-term results, this leadership style struggles with innovation and retention
• The most effective leaders seek validation first internally, staying consistent with their principles
• Trusted advisors who provide honest feedback form a second critical validation source
• External validation—whether from crowds or scoreboards—is ultimately unreliable
• Some people will unfairly judge you regardless of your actions or intentions
• If you don't have critics, you're likely not making enough impact
• Understanding your validation source requires honest self-assessment
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
If you lead to be liked or to win, you're playing
the wrong game.
What?
Let's talk about it in thisepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious,strengthen your ability to lead
in less than 30 minutes.
You're listening to Lead in 30.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Where do you look for validation?
What's your natural state?
Where do you naturallygravitate to seek validation as
a leader?
We're talking business here,right?
So in the organization that youlead on the team that you lead
in the career that you're in,where do you look for validation
(00:46):
from?
Nobody's asked you thatquestion recently, have they?
Or like ever, but it's reallyinteresting to think about and
it really defines yourleadership style.
I want to dig into this andtell you what the research shows
in this episode of the Lead in30 podcast.
Welcome into it.
(01:07):
In less than 30 minutes, wegive you a framework, a model, a
question, a best practice, anexample, a story, something for
you to consider implementing inthe way that you lead others.
My name is Russ Hill.
I make my living coaching,consulting senior executive
teams at some of the world'sbiggest companies.
You can find out more about ourfirm.
I'm one of the co-founders ofit, one of the members of the
(01:27):
team.
I get to be the voice of anincredible group.
You can find out more aboutwhat we do, both on the
executive consulting side, aswell as the leadership
development off the shelftraining of mid-level managers.
You can find out more aboutthat at lead in third.
Actually, no, not lead in 30.
Used to be leadin30.com.
We changed it because thereason for it is we don't just
(01:48):
have one course anymore, we'vegot four, and then we've got the
consulting side, so lonerockioLonerockio is the URL for
Lonerock Leadership.
I've talked recently about someof the new courses that we've
launched.
We are getting a ton ofinterest in what we call Adapt
(02:11):
in 30.
So the foundation of leadershipdevelopment, that the core of
what every manager needs, in ouropinion, is Lead in 30.
It's clarity alignment movementthe first things I've got to do
as a leader to create clarityalignment movement.
So we teach that in a four weekcohort experience you can
certify people, hr folks, l andD people inside your company to
(02:32):
train managers whether that's 10managers in your organization
or whether that's a 10,000, uh,we offer that at uh for lead in
30.
And then and so then you look at, well, what other skills do
they need?
And a lot of the trainingcompanies that are out there.
In fact, a lot, of, a lot ofthe content or development
that's out there is just 10,000courses.
It's like if you go to LinkedInlearning, what's the number?
(02:55):
I can't remember.
I think it's 17,000.
Is that what it?
I think that was the last count.
17,000 courses in LinkedInlearning.
So you got some of thesecompanies that are literally
like paying for licenses fortheir employees to LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn and I thinkit's fabulous and I think
they're amazing courses inLinkedIn learning, but I don't
want to offer my manager 17,000courses.
(03:15):
Like which one.
Should I start with what's mostimportant, what's core to the
way that we lead?
I want to share vocabulary.
I want to talk about whatreally matters, how I'm going to
be evaluated, what's going toscale, and so the answer isn't
an all access pass.
That's the worst thing you cangive a manager.
By the way, there's this thingcalled chat GPT now, where I can
(03:36):
get all that.
Anyway, I can just type in andsay help me with this, and so
what I need is a sharedexperience I have with other
people inside my organization,with simple frameworks and model
and vocabulary and all of that.
So we've got core models thatwe implement and then there's
follow up to it.
So, anyway, adapt in 30 is oneof the courses which is about
managing through change anduncertainty and how do you lead
(03:58):
a team through that, and theremight just be a little bit of
value to that in our currentenvironment at the time that I'm
recording this.
So anyway, you can find outmore about all that at uh see,
see the, the three new coursesthat we've launched in just the
last few months adapt in 30,decide in 30.
So many leaders, so manyorganizations struggle with
(04:18):
decision making.
And then power in 30, which isthis decision, not just to take
accountability, but to show uppowerfully.
How do you do that?
What does that mean?
Because the worst feeling youcan ever have is powerless
powerless in your job, powerlessin an organization, powerless
in a relationship.
It's debilitating.
(04:38):
It can leave you paralyzed andthere's no growth.
When you feel powerless,there's no movement, there's
only surrender.
Why would you do anythingdifferent?
You're powerless, so just getout the white flag, just sit
down and wave it.
You're powerless to do anything.
It's the most debilitatingmindset you can have in any
organization.
(04:59):
So what do we want?
We want a company, anorganization, a department full
of people who feel powerful.
And I can't make you feelpowerful.
It's actually a choice.
You make A choice to viewyourself as powerful in a
relationship, in your career, inyour job, in your organization.
Anyway, you can find out allabout that at lonerockio.
Okay, let's talk aboutvalidation.
(05:22):
So, speaking of lead in 30, alot of you listen, you've been
through the course or you atleast know these concepts that
we teach.
I'm going to do a quickrefresher because there's a
decent amount of you all overthe world that listen or that
maybe you're finding thisepisode out of the blue and you
need a little bit of abackground on this.
In Lead in 30, our kind offoundational leadership training
(05:42):
course, we teach the first,second and third leader.
These are leadership styles.
There are lots of profiles,patterns, assessments, all that
out there.
Um, and you can, just, you know, throw a rock and you'll hit
one um in in lead in 30, we, we,we break it down into just
three basic styles.
The one, the first one, is thefirst leader.
I'm going to spend 30 secondson this and then and then we're
(06:10):
going to get to validation.
So the first leader seeksconsensus.
They're super slow to makedecisions.
They love meetings, they lovedialogue, they love making
everyone feel important.
Everybody on the team feelsheard.
Engagement scores are off thecharts.
The problem with the firstleader is we don't really
execute well becauseeverything's a priority.
There's really no vision orclarity.
We're just kind of here to meetand talk and discuss and
(06:31):
everyone feels great.
And so people who are drivenstruggle when they're led by the
first leader.
Organizations that demandperformance struggle to promote
or retain or hold on to firstleaders because they don't place
a lot of value in them.
And yet some companies rewardthe first leader and what you
tend to see in their metrics isnot a lot of growth year over
year or quarter over quarter,because they're led by first
(06:53):
leaders.
Second leaders lean intocompliance.
What they want is for you tojust execute like we don't
really need another meeting.
I mean, I've already given youthe direction, right, you know
what to do, just go execute onit.
And so the value of the secondleader is you tend to get
incredible performance,especially out of the gate.
When you put a second leaderinto a new position or a new
(07:14):
department.
You promote them, you hire themfrom you know, from outside the
organization.
They're just really good atexecution.
The struggle with the secondleader is involvement, alignment
, just buy-in, and there's justtends to be silos, there tends
to be tension, there tends to bepeople rolling their eyes and
you log into their virtualmeeting.
There's really no need to haveyour camera on or unmute
(07:37):
yourself, because why would youspeak up or raise your hand.
The second leader came into themeeting already knowing the
answer it's whatever he or shesays.
So that's the struggle with thesecond leader.
They've got great performanceout of the gate.
But in today's day and age,when employees have a choice of
where they want to work, theyopt not to work for the second
leader, unless they're one ofthe favorite children of the
(07:59):
second leader.
Then they might stick around.
So what we teach in Leader Thirdis a different approach, what
we call the third leader.
I'll get more into that in amoment, but what I want to talk
about in this episode I'm justusing those as kind of handles
for this.
So just think about.
The first leader is somebodythat seeks consensus.
They care a ton about what theyeah, the second leader is
(08:21):
compliance, and then the thirdleader seeks ownership or people
to buy in.
So where do they seekvalidation?
So let's tie this into you Someof you seek validation from the
crowd.
That's what someone who leansinto consensus the first leader,
somebody that leans into a lotof discussion doesn't really
(08:41):
move the organization forward.
Where they are seekingvalidation.
Think about this is superinteresting.
This might be you, this mightbe your organization kind of the
overwhelming culture this mightbe the boss you work for,
somebody else or somebody onyour team, like this is totally
(09:01):
them.
They seek, because we all seekvalidation some more than others
.
Some of us have a big timeproblem with this.
Others of us, um, don't we?
You know we seek it, but wekind of manage it well.
So we'll get into outcomes andand some and some thoughts about
what, what, um, what mythoughts are about that in a
(09:23):
moment.
But but, um, hang on one second, while I'm recording this in
real time, I'm making sure that,okay, got it All right.
So and uh, so the.
So the first leader, the personthat seeks consensus.
They're seeking validation fromthe crowd, they're looking for
approval from the team.
They really highly value beingliked.
(09:46):
Right, they want to be liked,they want to create harmony.
Oh my gosh, that matters somuch.
The smiles on the cameras, onZoom or Teams, the, everyone
just getting along.
The group satisfaction is like,so rewarding to them.
(10:06):
We might be missing the number,we might not be innovating, we
might not be driving it forward,we might be losing market share
, whatever it might be.
Missing the number, we mightnot be innovating, we might not
be driving it forward, we mightbe losing market share, whatever
it might be, but wow, I'm likedand wow, the team gets along
and this is just a really goodplace.
That's a problem in acompetitive marketplace.
The second leader, the one thatseeks compliance where do they
(10:29):
seek validation?
Think about that for a second.
So the first leader, this firstexample, they're seeking
validation Again, some of youwanting to be liked seeking
validation from the crowd.
Where does the kind of thecommand and control, the
compliance executive or manager,where are they seeking
validation?
They are seeking validationfrom the scoreboard.
(10:53):
They want validation from theresults.
They actually like authorityrecognition.
It's really important to themto be viewed as senior.
As you know, that whole phraselike kiss the ring, a total
second leader, right Statusmatters a ton to them.
(11:17):
They anchor their identity andoutcomes, the revenue, the speed
, the wins.
That's what the second leaderjust seeks validation from.
We're winning on the scoreboard, we're crushing it out there.
I'm in a good position.
This organization recognizes mygenius or whatever it might be,
(11:39):
or my hard work or my degree.
I mean, I was interesting.
We were at college.
Just a quick aside on this.
We were at college graduationright Recently, for I did an
episode like two episodes ago onthis um, three members of our
family you know, our son andthen two in-laws or future
in-laws, uh, for our kids, uhwalked the stage at college
(11:59):
graduation so exciting.
And you look at that scene andthe robes, the robes that they
wear, and you just look at someand I don't mean any discredit
to anybody, but the just thestatus.
And you know, in our program atthe university it printed, you
know what, what do these robesmean?
And just the more things onthere and it said pay attention
(12:21):
to their sleeves and whateverthat's status that's.
Look at, I mean, why the crapare we wearing as a professor,
wearing a robe?
Why?
Why can they not just show upin nice business attire, like,
can you imagine the collegegraduation scene in a modern day
(12:42):
company?
Like the CEO walks in with therobe and it's interesting about
courtrooms, right, the judge hasto differentiate, separate him
or herself.
The robe is insane.
It's like, are you kidding me?
I was sitting there.
I'm like this is like, howoutdated is this?
(13:04):
And then you know, thedoctorate.
What do they call that the um,the, the, the thing that they
put over your show and I'moffending some of you.
Some of you are like youracademics or you're into that
and you're like Russ, you don'tget it.
The history and this and theother.
(13:24):
Okay, maybe I'm wrong on this.
I I leave total space for mebeing off my rocker on it, but
please help me.
Please help me understand that.
That's not seeking validationthrough status, because why, if
I have a doctorate, if I have aPhD, why do I need you to know
that?
Why is that important on thestage at a college graduation?
(13:45):
And so we don't do?
There's nothing similar inbusiness.
As far as a tire, now you couldsay, yeah, some companies,
you've got this parking space,this, that or the other, the
companies that the more, themore outward evidences we have
of status in our organization,the more screwed up that culture
(14:08):
is in the modern day period.
Challenge me on it, bring it,I'm so interested in hearing you
say it.
The assigned spots for theexecutive team Are you nuts?
The, the, the.
Well, they're up on the 17thfloor of the building and the
big suite like no, I mean.
So anyway, you can disagreewith me, I just know what I see
(14:31):
in the workplace.
I make my living traveling fromorganization to organization
All these different companiesand I'm just telling you there
are some parallels between howmuch the executives seek
validation of their status orrecognition of their authority,
and the culture and theinnovation and the engagement
(14:56):
and the ideation that'shappening in that organization
period.
Anyway, okay, just had to getthat out.
Ah, it feels better to inventit about that.
I just sat there at the collegegraduation like this is it's
insane in 2025, at the time I'mrecording this, that we still do
that.
In my opinion, you could now.
I'm all about calling out thepeople getting their doctorate
(15:18):
at this commencement, like theydeserve a round of applause.
Like I'm going to stand andapplaud for them.
Like wow, that was a lot ofhard work.
I'm not sure how much it'sgoing to help you in your career
, unless you're going intoacademics or obviously certain
degrees like you know a scienceand whatever else.
Like that's awesome.
But I know very few people whothe success that they have comes
(15:40):
through the academiccredentials.
Just now, it's a.
It's a ticket to some gamesagain.
I want the doctor attending meto have the PhD, right, I mean,
obviously they would be a doctor.
I want people to be educated.
Anyway, I need to get off this,okay.
So the second leader seeksvalidation from the scoreboard.
(16:02):
They look, look, I'maccomplishing the metrics.
You should love me.
So is that flawed?
At the end of the day, it'sflawed, it's part of it.
But so what's the answer, russ,where?
What do you like?
We'll make what.
What should we be doing?
Okay, I'll make the point, theyes, the results matter, yes,
(16:26):
the harmony on the team, and noteven let's not use the T, the
word uh, harmony.
Let's use the word involvement,let's use the word
participation, let's use theword ownership on the team.
There, I really like the wordinvolvement.
If they feel involved inhelping accomplish this, that
(16:48):
they've got a role in it, thattheir opinion matters, that
their contribution, their effortmatters, it's critically
important.
That's important If we'repaying attention to the results
and they matter.
Yeah, they matter.
We've got to deliver on thisquarter.
We've got to deliver on themetrics that the shareholders,
the investors, the owners, themembers want or need.
(17:11):
But deeper, deeper down, what Iwould suggest to you?
That the most effective leaders, that in their mind, they have
defined certain principles thatmatter tremendously and they do
not gain validation simply fromthe scoreboard, because you can
(17:34):
hit the metrics and still be anenormously flawed leader who
can't scale and get buy-in anddevelop leaders and set us up
for long-term success.
So instead, you've defined someprinciples.
They are core to you.
You want to lead this waybecause it is true to who you're
trying to be and you seekvalidation from this is going to
(17:58):
sound kind of soft to some ofyou and some of you are going to
need to think about this andyou're welcome.
I want you thinking about it.
Your validation comes from acouple of different places.
In the most effective, grounded, long-term, scalable leaders
Number one internal period, likethat's such a critical part.
(18:22):
I have lived long enough.
It almost makes me emotional,you all.
Because what the the, the priceI paid to gain this wisdom
wasn't, it wasn't cheap, it, it,it, it required, um, some
wounds, some, some battle scars.
(18:42):
Some of the wisdom I've gainedin life and some of you
listening have gained this toois that no matter what I do, no
matter how I show up, no matterwhat, what, no matter my intent,
some of you, some of the peoplein the organization, are going
to unfairly judge me.
(19:04):
They're going to hold opinionsthat aren't true aren't
reflective in who I really am.
Others are going to define meby my weakest moment.
Yep, I did show up that waythat one day.
Or yep, I used to be that way15 years ago.
Or yep, I slipped and did thatonce, twice, maybe a few times,
(19:26):
but that's not true to who I'mtrying to be.
That's not that.
That's not, um consistent withthe experiences I've been
creating on a regular basis, umin in in the recent past.
That's not true to who I youkeep following me.
They're gonna be people that, infact, you're not.
You're not doing a good job.
If you don't have critics.
(19:47):
It means you're, means you'reinvisible.
Nobody's noticing you.
It's when you actually startmaking a difference that you
start having some critics peopleand there is literally nothing.
You know this, right.
There's literally nothing youcan do that will convince them
otherwise.
You're.
You know people like this inyour life, right.
There's literally nothing youcan do that will convince them
otherwise.
You're.
You know people like this inyour life, right?
(20:07):
Doesn't matter what theevidence is.
The truth is they have definedyou or they've defined someone
in your position, or someonewith your skin color, or with
your gender, or with your area,that is a zip code or in
whatever it is.
They've defined you a certainway and it doesn't matter what
you do.
That's how they're so.
(20:27):
So we, we understand that.
So the the validation needs tofirst come from internally.
What they're saying is not true.
I or, or what, what, what'sgoing in that direction?
It's I know that I'm showing upthis way.
What's going in that direction?
It's I know that I'm showing upthis way.
You have to first seekvalidation from the core inside
you, and what I do is what I'mdoing, consistent with who I'm
(20:51):
trying to be, with what I'msaying.
So the most effective leaderswho scale, they first seek
validation from their internalvoice source, whatever.
Okay, where's the second placethey go?
The second place they go istrusted advisors.
(21:12):
It's not the crowd overall,it's the people that will give
them honest feedback coming froma place of good intention.
Them, honest feedback comingfrom a place of good intention,
not the clones, not the echochamber, not the critics, not
(21:38):
the naysayers.
The people who have experience,the people that know what we're
trying to accomplish, thepeople that are interested in
helping me see what I need tosee.
The people that are interestedin helping me see what I need to
see.
So a trusted advisor, not thecrowd, not just a scoreboard,
but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm seekingthose people out, this group of
whatever you want to call thatgroup.
(21:58):
I'm getting their feedback.
Are some of them my employees?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my bosses?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my bosses?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my peers?
Yes, are some of them relatedto me?
Yes, are some of them pastcolleagues?
Yes, some of them are neighbors.
Some of them are at my church,some of them are wherever they
might be.
Now I'll tell you that.
The third category.
There is a third category, butit won't apply to all of you, or
(22:21):
maybe you've got a differentword that I would use, and
that's God, a higher power,validation from that, like I'm
living, consistent with whatever.
And this kind of goes back toyou know your principles.
But I'm seeking validation,meaning like this is consistent
with what I think.
That higher power, the universe, the whatever or whatever that
(22:42):
thing is, that, the greater goodthat's out there, um, that
that's important to me, thatthat there, his, it's, however
you define it, perspective onwhat I'm doing.
I'd throw that out.
Obviously, we're not going toteach that in business I would
never say that in a clientmeeting, but in a little casual
(23:04):
podcast I can say that so, andthat may or may not apply to you
, but those first two really do.
Internally, does that makesense?
So in this episode, what Ireally wanted to do was to get
you thinking about where youseek validation from whose
opinion really matters, like howdo you kind of gain your
self-worth?
Have you thought about thatrecently?
(23:26):
Have you ever stepped back andanalyzed that?
So hopefully, during the courseof this episode you thought,
okay, maybe I am leaning alittle too much into being liked
.
Maybe harmony is a little tooimportant to me.
Maybe the scoreboard or theresults or authority, the robe
(23:50):
at graduation, the status, theparking spot maybe that matters
a little too much to me.
And because they're, I'm not, Idon't have time this episode to
get into the why those thingsare flawed.
But people will turn on you sofast, that board member that
you're placing your validationon and that feels good, right,
(24:13):
I'm not saying don't, we shouldall like to be liked.
There's no way to divorceyourself or separate yourself
from that.
That feels good, but it's notwhat's going to sustain me and
it's not what I'm ultimatelyseeking.
So if that, if I get that,that's cool.
If the board member thinks I'mdoing a good job, that's awesome
.
I want to keep them happy.
But that board member or thatstockholder or that executive or
(24:35):
that customer or that whomever,if they that opinion isn't what
really I'm looking for.
It's internal.
Am I doing what I know?
I mean, I've been.
There's so many stories I couldtell the weather, veins and
meetings that are seekingvalidation from the room, the
people just so many examples ofall of this.
And so, ultimately, what Iwould propose to you is internal
(24:57):
, internal validation thatyou're exercising consistently
with what you're trying to doand what you know to be right.
The core of and you could uselots of different words to
describe that and then thesecond place is a group of
trusted advisors.
Maybe there's a board member inthere, maybe there is a.
You just you define that.
(25:18):
You get the point.
Where do you seek validationfrom and what adjustments do you
need to make?
That's what I wanted you to bethinking about in this episode
of the lead in 30 podcast sharethis episode with a colleague,
your team or a friend.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Tap on the share button and text the link.
Thanks for listening to thelead in 30 podcast with russ
hill.
If you lead to be liked or to win, you're playing
the wrong game.
What?
Let's talk about it in thisepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious,strengthen your ability to lead
in less than 30 minutes.
You're listening to Lead in 30.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Where do you look for validation?
What's your natural state?
Where do you naturallygravitate to seek validation as
a leader?
We're talking business here,right?
So in the organization that youlead on the team that you lead
in the career that you're in,where do you look for validation
(00:46):
from?
Nobody's asked you thatquestion recently, have they?
Or like ever, but it's reallyinteresting to think about and
it really defines yourleadership style.
I want to dig into this andtell you what the research shows
in this episode of the Lead in30 podcast.
Welcome into it.
(01:07):
In less than 30 minutes, wegive you a framework, a model, a
question, a best practice, anexample, a story, something for
you to consider implementing inthe way that you lead others.
My name is Russ Hill.
I make my living coaching,consulting senior executive
teams at some of the world'sbiggest companies.
You can find out more about ourfirm.
I'm one of the co-founders ofit, one of the members of the
(01:27):
team.
I get to be the voice of anincredible group.
You can find out more aboutwhat we do, both on the
executive consulting side, aswell as the leadership
development off the shelftraining of mid-level managers.
You can find out more aboutthat at lead in third.
Actually, no, not lead in 30.
Used to be leadin30.com.
We changed it because thereason for it is we don't just
(01:48):
have one course anymore, we'vegot four, and then we've got the
consulting side, so lonerockioLonerockio is the URL for
Lonerock Leadership.
I've talked recently about someof the new courses that we've
launched.
We are getting a ton ofinterest in what we call Adapt
(02:11):
in 30.
So the foundation of leadershipdevelopment, that the core of
what every manager needs, in ouropinion, is Lead in 30.
It's clarity alignment movementthe first things I've got to do
as a leader to create clarityalignment movement.
So we teach that in a four weekcohort experience you can
certify people, hr folks, l andD people inside your company to
(02:32):
train managers whether that's 10managers in your organization
or whether that's a 10,000, uh,we offer that at uh for lead in
30.
And then and so then you look at, well, what other skills do
they need?
And a lot of the trainingcompanies that are out there.
In fact, a lot, of, a lot ofthe content or development
that's out there is just 10,000courses.
It's like if you go to LinkedInlearning, what's the number?
(02:55):
I can't remember.
I think it's 17,000.
Is that what it?
I think that was the last count.
17,000 courses in LinkedInlearning.
So you got some of thesecompanies that are literally
like paying for licenses fortheir employees to LinkedIn.
I love LinkedIn and I thinkit's fabulous and I think
they're amazing courses inLinkedIn learning, but I don't
want to offer my manager 17,000courses.
(03:15):
Like which one.
Should I start with what's mostimportant, what's core to the
way that we lead?
I want to share vocabulary.
I want to talk about whatreally matters, how I'm going to
be evaluated, what's going toscale, and so the answer isn't
an all access pass.
That's the worst thing you cangive a manager.
By the way, there's this thingcalled chat GPT now, where I can
(03:36):
get all that.
Anyway, I can just type in andsay help me with this, and so
what I need is a sharedexperience I have with other
people inside my organization,with simple frameworks and model
and vocabulary and all of that.
So we've got core models thatwe implement and then there's
follow up to it.
So, anyway, adapt in 30 is oneof the courses which is about
managing through change anduncertainty and how do you lead
(03:58):
a team through that, and theremight just be a little bit of
value to that in our currentenvironment at the time that I'm
recording this.
So anyway, you can find outmore about all that at uh see,
see the, the three new coursesthat we've launched in just the
last few months adapt in 30,decide in 30.
So many leaders, so manyorganizations struggle with
(04:18):
decision making.
And then power in 30, which isthis decision, not just to take
accountability, but to show uppowerfully.
How do you do that?
What does that mean?
Because the worst feeling youcan ever have is powerless
powerless in your job, powerlessin an organization, powerless
in a relationship.
It's debilitating.
(04:38):
It can leave you paralyzed andthere's no growth.
When you feel powerless,there's no movement, there's
only surrender.
Why would you do anythingdifferent?
You're powerless, so just getout the white flag, just sit
down and wave it.
You're powerless to do anything.
It's the most debilitatingmindset you can have in any
organization.
(04:59):
So what do we want?
We want a company, anorganization, a department full
of people who feel powerful.
And I can't make you feelpowerful.
It's actually a choice.
You make A choice to viewyourself as powerful in a
relationship, in your career, inyour job, in your organization.
Anyway, you can find out allabout that at lonerockio.
Okay, let's talk aboutvalidation.
(05:22):
So, speaking of lead in 30, alot of you listen, you've been
through the course or you atleast know these concepts that
we teach.
I'm going to do a quickrefresher because there's a
decent amount of you all overthe world that listen or that
maybe you're finding thisepisode out of the blue and you
need a little bit of abackground on this.
In Lead in 30, our kind offoundational leadership training
(05:42):
course, we teach the first,second and third leader.
These are leadership styles.
There are lots of profiles,patterns, assessments, all that
out there.
Um, and you can, just, you know, throw a rock and you'll hit
one um in in lead in 30, we, we,we break it down into just
three basic styles.
The one, the first one, is thefirst leader.
I'm going to spend 30 secondson this and then and then we're
(06:10):
going to get to validation.
So the first leader seeksconsensus.
They're super slow to makedecisions.
They love meetings, they lovedialogue, they love making
everyone feel important.
Everybody on the team feelsheard.
Engagement scores are off thecharts.
The problem with the firstleader is we don't really
execute well becauseeverything's a priority.
There's really no vision orclarity.
We're just kind of here to meetand talk and discuss and
(06:31):
everyone feels great.
And so people who are drivenstruggle when they're led by the
first leader.
Organizations that demandperformance struggle to promote
or retain or hold on to firstleaders because they don't place
a lot of value in them.
And yet some companies rewardthe first leader and what you
tend to see in their metrics isnot a lot of growth year over
year or quarter over quarter,because they're led by first
(06:53):
leaders.
Second leaders lean intocompliance.
What they want is for you tojust execute like we don't
really need another meeting.
I mean, I've already given youthe direction, right, you know
what to do, just go execute onit.
And so the value of the secondleader is you tend to get
incredible performance,especially out of the gate.
When you put a second leaderinto a new position or a new
(07:14):
department.
You promote them, you hire themfrom you know, from outside the
organization.
They're just really good atexecution.
The struggle with the secondleader is involvement, alignment
, just buy-in, and there's justtends to be silos, there tends
to be tension, there tends to bepeople rolling their eyes and
you log into their virtualmeeting.
There's really no need to haveyour camera on or unmute
(07:37):
yourself, because why would youspeak up or raise your hand.
The second leader came into themeeting already knowing the
answer it's whatever he or shesays.
So that's the struggle with thesecond leader.
They've got great performanceout of the gate.
But in today's day and age,when employees have a choice of
where they want to work, theyopt not to work for the second
leader, unless they're one ofthe favorite children of the
(07:59):
second leader.
Then they might stick around.
So what we teach in Leader Thirdis a different approach, what
we call the third leader.
I'll get more into that in amoment, but what I want to talk
about in this episode I'm justusing those as kind of handles
for this.
So just think about.
The first leader is somebodythat seeks consensus.
They care a ton about what theyeah, the second leader is
(08:21):
compliance, and then the thirdleader seeks ownership or people
to buy in.
So where do they seekvalidation?
So let's tie this into you Someof you seek validation from the
crowd.
That's what someone who leansinto consensus the first leader,
somebody that leans into a lotof discussion doesn't really
(08:41):
move the organization forward.
Where they are seekingvalidation.
Think about this is superinteresting.
This might be you, this mightbe your organization kind of the
overwhelming culture this mightbe the boss you work for,
somebody else or somebody onyour team, like this is totally
(09:01):
them.
They seek, because we all seekvalidation some more than others
.
Some of us have a big timeproblem with this.
Others of us, um, don't we?
You know we seek it, but wekind of manage it well.
So we'll get into outcomes andand some and some thoughts about
what, what, um, what mythoughts are about that in a
(09:23):
moment.
But but, um, hang on one second, while I'm recording this in
real time, I'm making sure that,okay, got it All right.
So and uh, so the.
So the first leader, the personthat seeks consensus.
They're seeking validation fromthe crowd, they're looking for
approval from the team.
They really highly value beingliked.
(09:46):
Right, they want to be liked,they want to create harmony.
Oh my gosh, that matters somuch.
The smiles on the cameras, onZoom or Teams, the, everyone
just getting along.
The group satisfaction is like,so rewarding to them.
(10:06):
We might be missing the number,we might not be innovating, we
might not be driving it forward,we might be losing market share
, whatever it might be.
Missing the number, we mightnot be innovating, we might not
be driving it forward, we mightbe losing market share, whatever
it might be, but wow, I'm likedand wow, the team gets along
and this is just a really goodplace.
That's a problem in acompetitive marketplace.
The second leader, the one thatseeks compliance where do they
(10:29):
seek validation?
Think about that for a second.
So the first leader, this firstexample, they're seeking
validation Again, some of youwanting to be liked seeking
validation from the crowd.
Where does the kind of thecommand and control, the
compliance executive or manager,where are they seeking
validation?
They are seeking validationfrom the scoreboard.
(10:53):
They want validation from theresults.
They actually like authorityrecognition.
It's really important to themto be viewed as senior.
As you know, that whole phraselike kiss the ring, a total
second leader, right Statusmatters a ton to them.
(11:17):
They anchor their identity andoutcomes, the revenue, the speed
, the wins.
That's what the second leaderjust seeks validation from.
We're winning on the scoreboard, we're crushing it out there.
I'm in a good position.
This organization recognizes mygenius or whatever it might be,
(11:39):
or my hard work or my degree.
I mean, I was interesting.
We were at college.
Just a quick aside on this.
We were at college graduationright Recently, for I did an
episode like two episodes ago onthis um, three members of our
family you know, our son andthen two in-laws or future
in-laws, uh, for our kids, uhwalked the stage at college
(11:59):
graduation so exciting.
And you look at that scene andthe robes, the robes that they
wear, and you just look at someand I don't mean any discredit
to anybody, but the just thestatus.
And you know, in our program atthe university it printed, you
know what, what do these robesmean?
And just the more things onthere and it said pay attention
(12:21):
to their sleeves and whateverthat's status that's.
Look at, I mean, why the crapare we wearing as a professor,
wearing a robe?
Why?
Why can they not just show upin nice business attire, like,
can you imagine the collegegraduation scene in a modern day
(12:42):
company?
Like the CEO walks in with therobe and it's interesting about
courtrooms, right, the judge hasto differentiate, separate him
or herself.
The robe is insane.
It's like, are you kidding me?
I was sitting there.
I'm like this is like, howoutdated is this?
(13:04):
And then you know, thedoctorate.
What do they call that the um,the, the, the thing that they
put over your show and I'moffending some of you.
Some of you are like youracademics or you're into that
and you're like Russ, you don'tget it.
The history and this and theother.
(13:24):
Okay, maybe I'm wrong on this.
I I leave total space for mebeing off my rocker on it, but
please help me.
Please help me understand that.
That's not seeking validationthrough status, because why, if
I have a doctorate, if I have aPhD, why do I need you to know
that?
Why is that important on thestage at a college graduation?
(13:45):
And so we don't do?
There's nothing similar inbusiness.
As far as a tire, now you couldsay, yeah, some companies,
you've got this parking space,this, that or the other, the
companies that the more, themore outward evidences we have
of status in our organization,the more screwed up that culture
(14:08):
is in the modern day period.
Challenge me on it, bring it,I'm so interested in hearing you
say it.
The assigned spots for theexecutive team Are you nuts?
The, the, the.
Well, they're up on the 17thfloor of the building and the
big suite like no, I mean.
So anyway, you can disagreewith me, I just know what I see
(14:31):
in the workplace.
I make my living traveling fromorganization to organization
All these different companiesand I'm just telling you there
are some parallels between howmuch the executives seek
validation of their status orrecognition of their authority,
and the culture and theinnovation and the engagement
(14:56):
and the ideation that'shappening in that organization
period.
Anyway, okay, just had to getthat out.
Ah, it feels better to inventit about that.
I just sat there at the collegegraduation like this is it's
insane in 2025, at the time I'mrecording this, that we still do
that.
In my opinion, you could now.
I'm all about calling out thepeople getting their doctorate
(15:18):
at this commencement, like theydeserve a round of applause.
Like I'm going to stand andapplaud for them.
Like wow, that was a lot ofhard work.
I'm not sure how much it'sgoing to help you in your career
, unless you're going intoacademics or obviously certain
degrees like you know a scienceand whatever else.
Like that's awesome.
But I know very few people whothe success that they have comes
(15:40):
through the academiccredentials.
Just now, it's a.
It's a ticket to some gamesagain.
I want the doctor attending meto have the PhD, right, I mean,
obviously they would be a doctor.
I want people to be educated.
Anyway, I need to get off this,okay.
So the second leader seeksvalidation from the scoreboard.
(16:02):
They look, look, I'maccomplishing the metrics.
You should love me.
So is that flawed?
At the end of the day, it'sflawed, it's part of it.
But so what's the answer, russ,where?
What do you like?
We'll make what.
What should we be doing?
Okay, I'll make the point, theyes, the results matter, yes,
(16:26):
the harmony on the team, and noteven let's not use the T, the
word uh, harmony.
Let's use the word involvement,let's use the word
participation, let's use theword ownership on the team.
There, I really like the wordinvolvement.
If they feel involved inhelping accomplish this, that
(16:48):
they've got a role in it, thattheir opinion matters, that
their contribution, their effortmatters, it's critically
important.
That's important If we'repaying attention to the results
and they matter.
Yeah, they matter.
We've got to deliver on thisquarter.
We've got to deliver on themetrics that the shareholders,
the investors, the owners, themembers want or need.
(17:11):
But deeper, deeper down, what Iwould suggest to you?
That the most effective leaders, that in their mind, they have
defined certain principles thatmatter tremendously and they do
not gain validation simply fromthe scoreboard, because you can
(17:34):
hit the metrics and still be anenormously flawed leader who
can't scale and get buy-in anddevelop leaders and set us up
for long-term success.
So instead, you've defined someprinciples.
They are core to you.
You want to lead this waybecause it is true to who you're
trying to be and you seekvalidation from this is going to
(17:58):
sound kind of soft to some ofyou and some of you are going to
need to think about this andyou're welcome.
I want you thinking about it.
Your validation comes from acouple of different places.
In the most effective, grounded, long-term, scalable leaders
Number one internal period, likethat's such a critical part.
(18:22):
I have lived long enough.
It almost makes me emotional,you all.
Because what the the, the priceI paid to gain this wisdom
wasn't, it wasn't cheap, it, it,it, it required, um, some
wounds, some, some battle scars.
(18:42):
Some of the wisdom I've gainedin life and some of you
listening have gained this toois that no matter what I do, no
matter how I show up, no matterwhat, what, no matter my intent,
some of you, some of the peoplein the organization, are going
to unfairly judge me.
(19:04):
They're going to hold opinionsthat aren't true aren't
reflective in who I really am.
Others are going to define meby my weakest moment.
Yep, I did show up that waythat one day.
Or yep, I used to be that way15 years ago.
Or yep, I slipped and did thatonce, twice, maybe a few times,
(19:26):
but that's not true to who I'mtrying to be.
That's not that.
That's not, um consistent withthe experiences I've been
creating on a regular basis, umin in in the recent past.
That's not true to who I youkeep following me.
They're gonna be people that, infact, you're not.
You're not doing a good job.
If you don't have critics.
(19:47):
It means you're, means you'reinvisible.
Nobody's noticing you.
It's when you actually startmaking a difference that you
start having some critics peopleand there is literally nothing.
You know this, right.
There's literally nothing youcan do that will convince them
otherwise.
You're.
You know people like this inyour life, right.
There's literally nothing youcan do that will convince them
otherwise.
You're.
You know people like this inyour life, right?
(20:07):
Doesn't matter what theevidence is.
The truth is they have definedyou or they've defined someone
in your position, or someonewith your skin color, or with
your gender, or with your area,that is a zip code or in
whatever it is.
They've defined you a certainway and it doesn't matter what
you do.
That's how they're so.
(20:27):
So we, we understand that.
So the the validation needs tofirst come from internally.
What they're saying is not true.
I or, or what, what, what'sgoing in that direction?
It's I know that I'm showing upthis way.
What's going in that direction?
It's I know that I'm showing upthis way.
You have to first seekvalidation from the core inside
you, and what I do is what I'mdoing, consistent with who I'm
(20:51):
trying to be, with what I'msaying.
So the most effective leaderswho scale, they first seek
validation from their internalvoice source, whatever.
Okay, where's the second placethey go?
The second place they go istrusted advisors.
(21:12):
It's not the crowd overall,it's the people that will give
them honest feedback coming froma place of good intention.
Them, honest feedback comingfrom a place of good intention,
not the clones, not the echochamber, not the critics, not
(21:38):
the naysayers.
The people who have experience,the people that know what we're
trying to accomplish, thepeople that are interested in
helping me see what I need tosee.
The people that are interestedin helping me see what I need to
see.
So a trusted advisor, not thecrowd, not just a scoreboard,
but I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm seekingthose people out, this group of
whatever you want to call thatgroup.
(21:58):
I'm getting their feedback.
Are some of them my employees?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my bosses?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my bosses?
Absolutely.
Are some of them my peers?
Yes, are some of them relatedto me?
Yes, are some of them pastcolleagues?
Yes, some of them are neighbors.
Some of them are at my church,some of them are wherever they
might be.
Now I'll tell you that.
The third category.
There is a third category, butit won't apply to all of you, or
(22:21):
maybe you've got a differentword that I would use, and
that's God, a higher power,validation from that, like I'm
living, consistent with whatever.
And this kind of goes back toyou know your principles.
But I'm seeking validation,meaning like this is consistent
with what I think.
That higher power, the universe, the whatever or whatever that
(22:42):
thing is, that, the greater goodthat's out there, um, that
that's important to me, thatthat there, his, it's, however
you define it, perspective onwhat I'm doing.
I'd throw that out.
Obviously, we're not going toteach that in business I would
never say that in a clientmeeting, but in a little casual
(23:04):
podcast I can say that so, andthat may or may not apply to you
, but those first two really do.
Internally, does that makesense?
So in this episode, what Ireally wanted to do was to get
you thinking about where youseek validation from whose
opinion really matters, like howdo you kind of gain your
self-worth?
Have you thought about thatrecently?
(23:26):
Have you ever stepped back andanalyzed that?
So hopefully, during the courseof this episode you thought,
okay, maybe I am leaning alittle too much into being liked
.
Maybe harmony is a little tooimportant to me.
Maybe the scoreboard or theresults or authority, the robe
(23:50):
at graduation, the status, theparking spot maybe that matters
a little too much to me.
And because they're, I'm not, Idon't have time this episode to
get into the why those thingsare flawed.
But people will turn on you sofast, that board member that
you're placing your validationon and that feels good, right,
(24:13):
I'm not saying don't, we shouldall like to be liked.
There's no way to divorceyourself or separate yourself
from that.
That feels good, but it's notwhat's going to sustain me and
it's not what I'm ultimatelyseeking.
So if that, if I get that,that's cool.
If the board member thinks I'mdoing a good job, that's awesome
.
I want to keep them happy.
But that board member or thatstockholder or that executive or
(24:35):
that customer or that whomever,if they that opinion isn't what
really I'm looking for.
It's internal.
Am I doing what I know?
I mean, I've been.
There's so many stories I couldtell the weather, veins and
meetings that are seekingvalidation from the room, the
people just so many examples ofall of this.
And so, ultimately, what Iwould propose to you is internal
(24:57):
, internal validation thatyou're exercising consistently
with what you're trying to doand what you know to be right.
The core of and you could uselots of different words to
describe that and then thesecond place is a group of
trusted advisors.
Maybe there's a board member inthere, maybe there is a.
You just you define that.
(25:18):
You get the point.
Where do you seek validationfrom and what adjustments do you
need to make?
That's what I wanted you to bethinking about in this episode
of the lead in 30 podcast sharethis episode with a colleague,
your team or a friend.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Tap on the share button and text the link.
Thanks for listening to thelead in 30 podcast with russ
hill.
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