May 16, 2025 • 29 mins
The science shows we're doing it all wrong! New research about virtual and offsite meetings shows they're leading to burnout and lack of engagement. We're doing it all wrong. In this episode Lone Rock Leadership cofounder Russ Hill shares three new scientific research studies that shows how we need to adjust our virtual meetings and our offsite schedules to boost engagement and drive results.
• Virtual meetings should ideally last 30 minutes, never exceeding 2 hours
• Limit meetings to 3-4 per day with substantial breaks between them
• For offsites, start later (9-10am) or at noon, not 8am
• End meetings around 2:30-3pm when brains naturally disengage
• Block your calendar to prevent back-to-back scheduling
• Leave people "wanting more" rather than completely depleted
• Microsoft's brain activity research shows significant stress during back-to-back meetings
• Long meetings create both mental underload (boredom) and overload (information saturation)
• Shorter meetings lead to more engagement and better outcomes
• Allow time for networking, individual work, and natural connections
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Your meetings are way too long.
What science is now showingabout how we should be
structuring our off-sitemeetings and our virtual
meetings?
Guess what we're doing it allwrong.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious.
Strengthen your ability to leadin less than 30 minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
When I first got into the consulting business and I
became an employee, right, anemployee of a consulting firm
and we had all of these clientsand I mean big companies, right,
so the biggest companies in theworld, many of them we were
consulting.
And so I was put on theseproject teams and we had to set
a curriculum that our consultingfirm used the intellectual
property right, Frameworks andmodels that had been developed
over many, many, many yearstrying to solve the problems
(00:57):
that organizations and executiveteams were dealing with in
trying to manage people, tryingto get results and acquisitions
and mergers and restructuringand adjusting strategies and
trying to drive performance andbuild accountability and all of
those sorts of things.
And so when I went to work forthe firm, they gave you very,
very detailed instructions onhow we were going to do things.
(01:22):
I mean down to the down todetails about whether or not you
should have tables in the room,how the chair should be
structured, microphones, aboutthe music that you would play
coming into and out of breaks,about every single detail, how
to draw things on flip charts.
I, literally, when I joined thefirm, I had to draw some of our
(01:43):
models on frameworks andframeworks on flip charts and
then the founders and theleaders of the company rip them
off.
They're like nope, russ, do itagain.
Nope, that line is not straight.
Nope, do it again.
This is our intellectualproperty, russ.
People are paying a lot ofmoney for this.
You can't draw it casually, andwhere you stand, and whether
your back is to different people.
(02:05):
I mean all of these details andand the reason that we did this
, the reason that firm did that,is because we wanted to be
world-class, the best in thebusiness, down to every little
detail.
And one of the things that wasemphasized to us was the length
(02:26):
of meetings.
So, cause, our clients werepaying a lot of money.
Typically, you know, you'd havethe executive team, or maybe
you had 200, you know the top200 in an organization, and then
, a few times during the year,you'd have, um, uh, several
thousand, a sales conference,you know all the sales managers
for a global company or whateverit might be.
And so we were we.
We we were charging clients for, you know, ongoing engagements,
(02:50):
and then part of this was thesebuilt-in meetings.
This was before virtualmeetings, like way back then.
You remember, you remember wayback then, when we didn't do
virtual meetings, like fouryears ago.
Like five years ago, I mean, itwas like it feels like like you
can't even remember lifewithout virtual meetings, but it
was like just yesterday that weweren't doing them.
(03:13):
So if you're maybe 28, youcan't remember that, or 27, you
don't remember it, but for thoseof us that are, I've been
around for a minute, we'veforgotten about it.
But in person meetings.
So, anyway, our um, our CEO,discovered, found out that some
of us in the firm were notrunning meetings from 8 AM to 5
(03:35):
PM.
We were ending the meetingswith the clients earlier, like
three or four, and he wantednothing to do with it.
This was one of the co-foundersat the time.
And so there was this directivethat went out to the
organization of no, thesecompanies are paying for a full
day of an onsite meeting andyou're to go to five.
(03:56):
Do not end early.
Give them the maximum amount,like you, you just.
You just engage them all theway through.
Amount Like you, just engagethem all the way through.
I could not have disagreed more.
I was a problem child on thisand you know what the science is
in and guess what?
I was right and you alreadyknow this anyway because you
(04:22):
experience it in meetings, butwe're going to talk about how
this applies to virtual meetingsthat you run and you're a part
of in your organization as well.
We're doing it all wrong.
Welcome in to the Lead M30podcast.
In less than 30 minutes, wegive you a framework, research,
a model, a best practice, anexample, a story, an experience
that we've recently had as we'reout in this leadership lab with
executive teams of all theseorganizations, or things that
(04:43):
we're learning as we are doingthese, cohorts after cohort,
with hundreds of leaders, and soyou put those together back to
back.
You got thousands of leadersevery month going through these
and we share those findings andour experiences here in the lead
in 30 podcasts in less than 30minutes.
In an episode, I am Russ Hill,I'm one of the co-founders of
the firm and I just happen to bethe spokesperson, the person
(05:05):
with the microphone, for ourpodcast.
You can find out more about theamazing work our team is doing
and the amazing results ourclients are getting, both on the
consulting side as well as theoff-the-shelf leadership
training side at LoneRockio.
Lonerockio Our company is calledLoneRock Leadership and, oh man
(05:29):
, this is on my mind because Ijust well, for multiple reasons.
Let me give you two.
That just happened, and so theoutcome of this episode is
you're going to have researchand data and I'm going to get
you to think differently.
I'm going to offer somethoughts for you to adjust how
you do virtual meetings and howyou do off sites.
Some of you aren't involved inoff sites, but as you climb in
(05:51):
the org chart and you moved fromorganization to organization or
you build your company orwhatever it is, you're going to
want to do off sites.
They are a critical part of anyleadership team.
You've got to get out of thebuilding.
We highly, highly, highlyrecommend because we see the
effectiveness of it and mostfortune 50 companies do this
(06:14):
where they do an offsite once aquarter with the leadership team
.
There's no reason why, ifyou're halfway down the org
chart or anywhere on that orgchart, why you can't take your
leadership team off site and doa meeting every quarter.
You should be doing.
It is what we would advocate,based on the impact.
We'll get more into that injust a moment.
(06:35):
You don't have to fly them away.
You don't have to go to someelaborate place, but there's
just so much data about how wethink more creatively we get the
attention of people in themeeting, when we're away from
the facility and we go to someplace that really stimulates our
brain activity and that couldbe just simply, doesn't it be
(06:57):
some exotic, beautiful place?
It could just be a nice hotelballroom, a nice meeting room.
I used to do it like when I hadno budget and I was a lower
level leader.
I'd do it like at a at somemeeting room, at a at some hotel
.
Anyway, let's, let's talk aboutthese couple of experience I
had recently.
So I was in the in the Midwestwith an executive team this is
(07:21):
in the last few weeks and, um,and we, we had a meeting that
was scheduled all day.
It was supposed to end at 4 PMand so after lunch I went up to
the uh, the senior executive whooversaw this team, and I asked
him.
I said, okay, we got a coupleof options as we look toward the
afternoon.
Number one the first option iswe go to four, because we're on
(07:44):
everybody's calendar till fourand we've got this thing and I,
you know, I want to get to thistopic and that topic that we've
gotten into, we haven't gottento yet, dig into deeper into
that and have a conversationaround it.
I said now the second option iswe call this thing at like two
30 and we go.
So we come back out of lunchand we go really focused for
like an hour and a half orwhatever it was.
(08:04):
And uh, and then we cuteverybody loose at two 30 and we
leave them wanting more.
And he didn't even hesitate andoh, I was so glad because we
were perfectly aligned he saidwe're calling it at two 30, wrap
it up at two 30, russ, you andyour team, just let's leave them
wanting more.
And uh, and let let's's, let'scut it loose.
(08:25):
I could not have agreed more.
Why?
Why do I say that we don't?
We, like, we've got all thesepeople in the same room.
Some of them travel, some ofthem, you know, depends on your
organization too.
We, we've got this greatconversation going and it's
because you, you have this.
You know exactly what I'mtalking about.
(08:46):
And now the research and datapoints to it.
And that is by two, 32 o'clock,three at the latest.
You're dead, your brain stopsworking, you are, you want out,
you're done.
And so, from three to five, twoto five, whatever it is, your
(09:09):
meeting, our meetings are almostcompletely ineffective.
Now there are a couple ofthings you can do to change that
, and I'll give you anotherexample.
And both of these are offsite.
Then I'm going to go to virtualin just a moment, because
that's a big reality for all ofus.
So our company just had two daysof meetings.
I flew back literally like afew hours ago.
(09:30):
At the time I'm recording this,I just got back and to my home
office.
So day one was just thefounders meeting was just really
going through and updatingstrategy on a few things,
pushing our thinking on a coupleof things.
We're crisscrossing the globe,we're all over the place.
We're with different clients.
As the firm has grown, we don'twork together on the same
(09:54):
projects anymore and so all ofour team is really dispersed,
and that's just for bandwidthsake, because we've got so many
clients that in differentorganizations and different
projects that are going, and sowe, we, uh, we want to make sure
that.
So we were, we were gettingtogether for a full day.
Well, um, that day wasincredibly engaging because of
(10:20):
we were creating which is a bigthing, like a meeting.
I'll get more to that theaction items in just a second.
The takeaways I don't I'mgetting ahead of myself here,
but the meeting was fullyengaging and we finished up on
day one around 10 o'clock atnight, maybe 11.
And so now you're and, by theway, then day two, we had some
(10:42):
of the leaders of our company,some of the folks that lead up
the training side of ourorganization, with lead in 30.
And then the three new coursesthat we rolled out in the last
few months of of decide in 30,of adapt in 30 and power in 30,
these three new courses that arejust oh my gosh.
We thought there was going tobe demand in the marketplace for
(11:04):
it.
We had no idea.
And so, like there's just theamount of work that's going on
in our organization, theadditional team members that
we're having to to bring on tohandle the demand around those
three new courses is off thecharts.
People who've been through leadin 30 are like, oh my gosh,
clarity, alignment, movementthat's amazing, or whatever.
Whatever they get these results, and like the the amount of
(11:26):
change that's happening in ourindustry or in our company or
out there.
We've got to better equip ourmanagers to be able to deal with
it anyway.
So we're building, we're, we'rebuilding some of the strategies
around different things andexecuting, and how are we going
to meet market demand?
And yada, yada, yada.
That was day two.
So we've got additional peopleit's not just the founders, it's
now a broader team and thensome outsiders and different
(11:46):
things that we invited.
So that day meeting went from.
It went all day.
We ended at four.
Everybody was engaged.
We could have gone longer, butwe did a few.
We did a few things.
We did a few things that madeus stay engaged that late, and
then with some members of theteam, we went till 11, 11 pm and
(12:07):
it was a full day.
Well, how, russ, these seem tobe contradictions.
You're telling me about thismeeting in the Midwest where
you're telling the seniorexecutive let's cut it at 2.30.
And then you tell me that youcan go all day into late at
night.
How does that work?
Okay, here's the takeaway.
And, by the way, there's a bunchof research, and let me quote
just a few of them.
(12:27):
So one of these studies isMicrosoft, what they call their
human factors lab, where theyactually used EEGs and they
monitored brain activity.
They monitored stress levels ofpeople in meetings.
Another study that we've beenlooking at is the Journal of
Occupational Health, psychologyand cognitive engagement levels
(12:52):
in meetings, virtually and onsite.
And then the last study thatwe've spent a lot of time
looking at is the MIT Sloanremote meeting study.
All of these are within thelast few years.
Two of the three were withinthe last 12 months and I'm going
to share with you the findings,the scientific research driven
(13:17):
brain science studies, and it'sgoing to back up everything you
already know.
And so why aren't we adjusting?
So here's I'm going to stay atthe offsite or the full day
meeting and then I'm going to govirtual in just a minute.
A lot of you who aren't doingoffsites I want, I want you to
have this data so you can, youcan adjust how offsites that
(13:38):
you're a part of, you cansuggest this to your boss or
when you're doing an offsite,you, you, you know what the
science shows.
Here's what one of the thingsthat we found is you don't go
all day, you, you take massivebreaks, and a few things that I
would.
I would throw at you that I'mgoing to go relatively quick and
stay at a high level on,because I've got to do this in
(14:00):
less than 30 minutes and wecould do this.
We could take literally liketwo hours and barely cover the
surface on this.
So one of the ways that we'vereally worked on engagement at
our off sites is we don't tostart an offsite.
Why?
Because the concern, the issue.
(14:27):
There's a couple of reasons.
The concern that most peoplecoming to your offsite have is
oh my gosh, I've got so muchgoing on.
How am I going to stay up todate with the emails, the calls,
the different things, theprojects that I've got done?
I've got to get that to aclient, all those sorts of
things.
So you create the offsite withtime for them to work on them,
so they can get up at 7 am, 6 am, whatever it is, and they've
(14:48):
got that first hour of theworkday from eight to nine to
get stuff done.
And so let them get stuff done.
Start at 10, start at nine inour company on day one.
Typically we did a little bitdifferent this week because of
the volume of what we needed toget to, but typically we we
split the two-day off sites umover the two days and we start
at noon on day one, noon at dayone, and the reason is we go
(15:13):
noon to four or noon to five.
We take a few, but you had thewhole morning to do work.
You had the whole morning to,to, to get things done, and then
and then we're start, and thenthe engagement and the endorphin
rush and the dopamine and allthat comes from being in person
and in the same room and ideasthat, that, that that's all
(15:33):
hitting in the afternoon and andby the time you're getting
tired, four or five hours in,we're done.
We're done with it.
Okay, the other reason to notstart at 8 am and to start at 9
or 10, beyond what I just saidis to allow people to go to
breakfast and network togetherto be able to have interaction.
Now our recommendation to youwould be don't schedule that.
(15:57):
Don't make it an on-demandthing, because that's part of it
.
You think that, oh, we'rehaving breakfast for an hour,
people can do whatever, and thenwe're having this social
activity and then we're going togo to Topgolf or we're going to
go drive race cars, and thenyou've taken my schedule.
I'm with you from 7 am with thebreakfast, or 730, till nine
(16:19):
o'clock at night.
You fried me, even though we'redoing active things and it's
social or whatever.
You told like you know, likethe active stuff is good and
that, and team building and allthat, but I need breaks to get
away from everybody.
I need breaks to get thingsdone.
I want to go back to my hotelroom.
I want to go have a one-on-onemeeting with this person or that
(16:44):
person.
I want to go outside andbrainstorm.
I want to.
I want some time to schedulesome time with that person and
the other functional area tojust talk.
I want to just talk.
I want to go find somebody andgo do something where I'm
catching up with them about howthey're doing in life and ask
them about, you know, theirlong-term plan.
Are they going to stay with thecompany?
How are they feeling about this?
Dig into different things, andI can't do that at these big
(17:07):
social events, whether it'sbreakfast or go-kart racing or
whatever else.
And so don't take all of my time.
If you want my best ideas, youwant my best energy, you want
this to be a source of energyfor everybody in that first day,
take four or five hours.
That includes the meal thateverybody comes to, that
(17:28):
includes the activity orwhatever else.
That's it.
That's it.
Watch what happens.
I promise you, if you have anoffsite and let's say you have
20 people coming or you have 400, give them three to four or
five hours of free time duringthat day and then ask for
(17:50):
feedback.
I promise you you will get anenormous amount of positive
feedback, an enormous amount,and then you start the next day.
So let's then then you do thesame thing in day two.
The other option to this whichwe've tried in our company, our
firm, based on what we've seen,best practices and other
organizations, and we loved itand we saw the difference in
(18:11):
energy level, the difference inideation, the different level
and engagement, that the othermodel is you start at noon or
one.
On day one, you go till four.
You give people their evening.
You might have a short activity, short an hour or two, like
quick, don't take the wholeevening.
You might love it, they don't.
And then and there are somepeople who will, but there are a
(18:33):
lot of people who don't andthey can't get as much done and
then day two, start at nine, noteight, start at nine, go to
noon or one, and then you'redone.
That's it.
Less is more, less is more.
Now let's talk about virtual,and then I'm going to back up
(18:55):
the science and share with you afew of the findings in a minute
.
Virtual meetings is virtualmeetings.
We just do not have tolerancefor these to go long and and and
the takeaway, the punchlinefrom all of the all of the
research, again, what youalready know is these back to
back to back virtual meetingsare the death of your
organization.
If you want to watch engagementdip, if you want to watch
(19:16):
ideation plummet, if you want towatch burnout skyrocket,
schedule long virtual meetingsand create a culture where
people have back to back to backto back to back virtual
meetings, it's death.
It's not productive.
You think it's productive.
You look at schedules.
(19:36):
I look at somebody in our firm'sschedule and they're working
from home that day and I seethree meetings, virtually for a
half hour each on their calendarand I think that's a productive
employee, that's an engagedperson.
I look at somebody's calendar.
You know how you can see eachother's calendars in a company,
right, and I look at somebody'scalendar and I see eight virtual
(19:59):
meetings, six virtual meetingswith no break or very little
break in between, and I thinkthat's a burned out employee,
that's someone who we're notgetting the best from.
That's somebody who's going tobe struggling, right, and in so
many companies the culture isthe opposite.
It's a badge of courage.
Look at my calendar it's fullof virtual meetings.
(20:21):
I am so important, yeah, andyou're not generating much,
you're not ideating, you're notconnecting with people, you're
not sitting and thinking alone,you're not problem solving,
you're not digging deep into theprojects, you're not taking us
into the future.
So what's the ideal?
So the number of virtualmeetings in a day limit, limit
(20:44):
it.
And one way to do this a hack,if you want to get super
tactical is you look at yourschedule a few days out and it
depends on your organization andyou create buffers.
So you've got a meeting thatpopped up virtual depends on
your organization and you createbuffers.
So you've got a meeting thatpopped up virtual meeting on
your calendar at 8 AM.
So the next two hours you put a, you, you put an appointment on
(21:05):
your calendar and outlook orwhatever.
You block it off and, dependingon your organization, if
anybody challenges you on that,leave the company.
Like, like, let's just be real,somebody's looking at that and
go.
Well, what are those two thingsLike that, like you don't want
to work for that boss?
Do they not trust you?
Are they going to micromanageit that much?
Like?
And if you don't have the spaceor ability to build that in.
(21:26):
And I'm not saying that therearen't weeks where you're
overloaded.
Yeah, that happens, that andthat's going to happen.
But I'm talking about week in,week out.
Let that be the outlier, theexception where it's back to
back to back to back.
We're all going to have that inoccasional weeks.
If that's every week, you'redone, You're done.
And so put block out two hours,block out an hour, so no one can
(21:48):
grab that.
They see that you're busy andthen, and then you've got the
next virtual meeting or whateverit is, and then block it out,
block the calendar out.
I do that in our organization.
That time's just not availablebecause I want, when we connect,
I want to be at my best Ifyou're right after the next one
or whatever.
Whatever you're not going toget the best.
Okay, what's the ideal length ofa virtual meeting?
(22:10):
30 minutes.
All the data suggests it.
30 minutes is ideal.
Um surveys show that.
The, the, the academic researchthat's been done on and there's
been a ton on virtual meetingsshow that.
Now you think well, I've got 10people on this, we can't go 30
minutes.
Or I've got a one-on-one withsomebody and we need an hour.
(22:31):
Okay, go an hour, but just knowthat engagement levels start to
dip after 30 minutes, accordingto all the brain research and
there's lots of reasons for that.
You can just search for it inchat, gpt or any place else you
want to AI will spit out all abunch of crap that's related to
this for you If you want to digdeeper in it, if you want to
(22:52):
verify any of it and and and.
So what if I've got a teammeeting, so I've got 20 people,
or I've got 40 people, or I'vegot a cross-functional meeting
that we have Do not go longerthan 90 on the high end.
Like, let's say it's exception,you got to go longer.
They're like this big thing andwe're getting all these people,
(23:12):
or whatever it is, two hoursmax.
Two hours max, these four hour.
We actually have other companiesin our space that certify, you
know, like, like we certifypeople to be able to facilitate,
lead in 30 or adapt in 30internally, like these are HR, l
and D leaders, that sort ofthing, right, and?
(23:34):
And so we certify them to wherethey can deliver our IP, our
content, structured in thescientifically backed, highly
engaged way that we do it withblended learning and a cohort
and all that stuff, right.
So we certify people in that.
Other companies that certifypeople in content, they do these
certification meetings that areeight hours virtually, six
(23:55):
hours, virtually Are you insane?
That is our.
Our certification is two hoursone day, virtually.
Two hours the next day,virtually.
There is no way we're takingyou past the two hour mark.
You people are not listeningtheir, their, their capacity,
called cognitive overload, right, that that's a huge thing.
(24:18):
And then these, these, uh, thesestress levels that happen.
So let me give you a little bitof the re.
So.
So, frequency of virtualmeetings no more than three or
four day.
Look at your people's calendars.
What's the norm in yourorganization?
If everybody's got them stackedlike boom boom, boom, boom over
you, like that's a, do not besurprised when you get the
(24:41):
employee engagement scores back.
Do not be surprised when you'renot innovating.
Do not be surprised when you'vegot all these sorts of things
right.
That, that is too, that's a,that that is a warning sign for
you.
So, um, let's just share, bulletpoint real quick, a couple of
these studies.
So microsoft human factors lab,this, uh, brainwave study that
(25:03):
they did.
They, they put eegs on peopleand then have them go to
back-to-back virtual meetings.
The stress level that theyshowed was enormous.
What?
What they recommended?
Instead of giving you a ton ofdata about this study, what I'll
tell you is they said break it.
Everything I've advocated cameout is related to their study
(25:25):
and others and our ownexperience, but the data shows
it.
The science backs it up.
They suggested a minimum of 10minute breaks between meetings
if they have to be back to back,but the real solution is an
hour or two between them andonly about three a day.
Let's talk about the Journal ofOccupational Health Psychology.
(25:45):
What they showed was thatprolonged cognitive engagement
in meetings creates mentalunderload and mental overload.
This is the research, research.
One of the research things onthese off-sites are long
meetings and the cognitiveunderload.
Like I when I first saw thatterm described, as I'm like what
(26:06):
does underload mean?
And what it means is you'rebored.
You've tuned out so many ofthese off-sites that we go to in
organizations.
They spend the time doingbriefings.
Hey, let's have accounting, dothis, we're going to take an
hour on that.
And then marketing is going tospend two hours updating.
(26:27):
And then HR is going to do theemployee engagement score
updates and then we're going tospend an hour after lunch where
sales updates us on this andthen research and development is
going to take two hours andlike just get all sharp objects
away from me.
That is death.
(26:48):
There's not a C singleexecutive on your team that
likes that.
That's not the way to getengagement.
Yes, you have briefings, butthey can't look like that.
You're experiencing under load,which is okay.
I have checked out and so thatwhat, the what, what the brain
(27:08):
activity showed is just okay.
It depletes.
This is what happens at 2 PM.
At 3 PM, I'm like, oh, I'm justout of it.
Overload is I'm actually tunedin.
So the cognitive overload isI'm actually tuned in and paying
attention and my capacity tostore or process everything
that's come at me today in thislong offsite meeting or in this
(27:31):
two and a half hour virtualmeeting, it's done.
There's no more room in the cupfor more water.
Stop pouring it in.
That's what was so brilliantabout the executive in the
Midwest a week or two ago.
Two, 30, guess what?
We're leaving in the in the cupmore room.
So people walk out energizedlike, wow, number one, thanks
(27:54):
for giving me some time back.
That I wasn't expecting.
That's a huge win.
And number two, I'm wow.
I could have gone for anothertwo or three hours.
I've got more juice left in me.
Yep, we're good.
They walk out of there on fire.
You should have seen the energylevel in these people.
And so this that that is whatI'd have you think about.
(28:14):
The length of your meetings, thefrequency of them virtually
off-site all of that.
Our meetings are too long,we're pushing too much into them
and we need the CEO, bless hisheart.
That told us to go till fivewas wrong.
I started ending the meetingsearly Two o'clock, three o'clock
(28:34):
.
You know what happened.
I got invited back more andmore.
Those accounts, those accountsexpanded.
His approach was wrong.
The shorter meeting actuallyled to more engagement, less
people feeling energized and mycontracts, my engagement with
these organizations.
They were like russ.
We want the team back.
We'll come back like we need todo.
(28:56):
Can you be back in 30 days?
Come back, we're like we needto do it.
Can you be back in 30 days?
As opposed to, his theory waswell, we go to five and they're
going to feel.
They're going to feel like wow,we gave them so much, so much
value that they're going to knowthey were done.
They had tuned out at two orthree.
Anyway, you get the point.
That is what's on my mind inthis episode of the lead in 30
(29:16):
podcast share this episode witha colleague, your team or a
friend.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Tap on the share button and text the link.
Thanks for listening to thelead in 30 podcast with russ
hill.
Your meetings are way too long.
What science is now showingabout how we should be
structuring our off-sitemeetings and our virtual
meetings?
Guess what we're doing it allwrong.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
This is the Lead in 30 podcast with Russ Hill.
You cannot be serious.
Strengthen your ability to leadin less than 30 minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
When I first got into the consulting business and I
became an employee, right, anemployee of a consulting firm
and we had all of these clientsand I mean big companies, right,
so the biggest companies in theworld, many of them we were
consulting.
And so I was put on theseproject teams and we had to set
a curriculum that our consultingfirm used the intellectual
property right, Frameworks andmodels that had been developed
over many, many, many yearstrying to solve the problems
(00:57):
that organizations and executiveteams were dealing with in
trying to manage people, tryingto get results and acquisitions
and mergers and restructuringand adjusting strategies and
trying to drive performance andbuild accountability and all of
those sorts of things.
And so when I went to work forthe firm, they gave you very,
very detailed instructions onhow we were going to do things.
(01:22):
I mean down to the down todetails about whether or not you
should have tables in the room,how the chair should be
structured, microphones, aboutthe music that you would play
coming into and out of breaks,about every single detail, how
to draw things on flip charts.
I, literally, when I joined thefirm, I had to draw some of our
(01:43):
models on frameworks andframeworks on flip charts and
then the founders and theleaders of the company rip them
off.
They're like nope, russ, do itagain.
Nope, that line is not straight.
Nope, do it again.
This is our intellectualproperty, russ.
People are paying a lot ofmoney for this.
You can't draw it casually, andwhere you stand, and whether
your back is to different people.
(02:05):
I mean all of these details andand the reason that we did this
, the reason that firm did that,is because we wanted to be
world-class, the best in thebusiness, down to every little
detail.
And one of the things that wasemphasized to us was the length
(02:26):
of meetings.
So, cause, our clients werepaying a lot of money.
Typically, you know, you'd havethe executive team, or maybe
you had 200, you know the top200 in an organization, and then
, a few times during the year,you'd have, um, uh, several
thousand, a sales conference,you know all the sales managers
for a global company or whateverit might be.
And so we were we.
We we were charging clients for, you know, ongoing engagements,
(02:50):
and then part of this was thesebuilt-in meetings.
This was before virtualmeetings, like way back then.
You remember, you remember wayback then, when we didn't do
virtual meetings, like fouryears ago.
Like five years ago, I mean, itwas like it feels like like you
can't even remember lifewithout virtual meetings, but it
was like just yesterday that weweren't doing them.
(03:13):
So if you're maybe 28, youcan't remember that, or 27, you
don't remember it, but for thoseof us that are, I've been
around for a minute, we'veforgotten about it.
But in person meetings.
So, anyway, our um, our CEO,discovered, found out that some
of us in the firm were notrunning meetings from 8 AM to 5
(03:35):
PM.
We were ending the meetingswith the clients earlier, like
three or four, and he wantednothing to do with it.
This was one of the co-foundersat the time.
And so there was this directivethat went out to the
organization of no, thesecompanies are paying for a full
day of an onsite meeting andyou're to go to five.
(03:56):
Do not end early.
Give them the maximum amount,like you, you just.
You just engage them all theway through.
Amount Like you, just engagethem all the way through.
I could not have disagreed more.
I was a problem child on thisand you know what the science is
in and guess what?
I was right and you alreadyknow this anyway because you
(04:22):
experience it in meetings, butwe're going to talk about how
this applies to virtual meetingsthat you run and you're a part
of in your organization as well.
We're doing it all wrong.
Welcome in to the Lead M30podcast.
In less than 30 minutes, wegive you a framework, research,
a model, a best practice, anexample, a story, an experience
that we've recently had as we'reout in this leadership lab with
executive teams of all theseorganizations, or things that
(04:43):
we're learning as we are doingthese, cohorts after cohort,
with hundreds of leaders, and soyou put those together back to
back.
You got thousands of leadersevery month going through these
and we share those findings andour experiences here in the lead
in 30 podcasts in less than 30minutes.
In an episode, I am Russ Hill,I'm one of the co-founders of
the firm and I just happen to bethe spokesperson, the person
(05:05):
with the microphone, for ourpodcast.
You can find out more about theamazing work our team is doing
and the amazing results ourclients are getting, both on the
consulting side as well as theoff-the-shelf leadership
training side at LoneRockio.
Lonerockio Our company is calledLoneRock Leadership and, oh man
(05:29):
, this is on my mind because Ijust well, for multiple reasons.
Let me give you two.
That just happened, and so theoutcome of this episode is
you're going to have researchand data and I'm going to get
you to think differently.
I'm going to offer somethoughts for you to adjust how
you do virtual meetings and howyou do off sites.
Some of you aren't involved inoff sites, but as you climb in
(05:51):
the org chart and you moved fromorganization to organization or
you build your company orwhatever it is, you're going to
want to do off sites.
They are a critical part of anyleadership team.
You've got to get out of thebuilding.
We highly, highly, highlyrecommend because we see the
effectiveness of it and mostfortune 50 companies do this
(06:14):
where they do an offsite once aquarter with the leadership team
.
There's no reason why, ifyou're halfway down the org
chart or anywhere on that orgchart, why you can't take your
leadership team off site and doa meeting every quarter.
You should be doing.
It is what we would advocate,based on the impact.
We'll get more into that injust a moment.
(06:35):
You don't have to fly them away.
You don't have to go to someelaborate place, but there's
just so much data about how wethink more creatively we get the
attention of people in themeeting, when we're away from
the facility and we go to someplace that really stimulates our
brain activity and that couldbe just simply, doesn't it be
(06:57):
some exotic, beautiful place?
It could just be a nice hotelballroom, a nice meeting room.
I used to do it like when I hadno budget and I was a lower
level leader.
I'd do it like at a at somemeeting room, at a at some hotel
.
Anyway, let's, let's talk aboutthese couple of experience I
had recently.
So I was in the in the Midwestwith an executive team this is
(07:21):
in the last few weeks and, um,and we, we had a meeting that
was scheduled all day.
It was supposed to end at 4 PMand so after lunch I went up to
the uh, the senior executive whooversaw this team, and I asked
him.
I said, okay, we got a coupleof options as we look toward the
afternoon.
Number one the first option iswe go to four, because we're on
(07:44):
everybody's calendar till fourand we've got this thing and I,
you know, I want to get to thistopic and that topic that we've
gotten into, we haven't gottento yet, dig into deeper into
that and have a conversationaround it.
I said now the second option iswe call this thing at like two
30 and we go.
So we come back out of lunchand we go really focused for
like an hour and a half orwhatever it was.
(08:04):
And uh, and then we cuteverybody loose at two 30 and we
leave them wanting more.
And he didn't even hesitate andoh, I was so glad because we
were perfectly aligned he saidwe're calling it at two 30, wrap
it up at two 30, russ, you andyour team, just let's leave them
wanting more.
And uh, and let let's's, let'scut it loose.
(08:25):
I could not have agreed more.
Why?
Why do I say that we don't?
We, like, we've got all thesepeople in the same room.
Some of them travel, some ofthem, you know, depends on your
organization too.
We, we've got this greatconversation going and it's
because you, you have this.
You know exactly what I'mtalking about.
(08:46):
And now the research and datapoints to it.
And that is by two, 32 o'clock,three at the latest.
You're dead, your brain stopsworking, you are, you want out,
you're done.
And so, from three to five, twoto five, whatever it is, your
(09:09):
meeting, our meetings are almostcompletely ineffective.
Now there are a couple ofthings you can do to change that
, and I'll give you anotherexample.
And both of these are offsite.
Then I'm going to go to virtualin just a moment, because
that's a big reality for all ofus.
So our company just had two daysof meetings.
I flew back literally like afew hours ago.
(09:30):
At the time I'm recording this,I just got back and to my home
office.
So day one was just thefounders meeting was just really
going through and updatingstrategy on a few things,
pushing our thinking on a coupleof things.
We're crisscrossing the globe,we're all over the place.
We're with different clients.
As the firm has grown, we don'twork together on the same
(09:54):
projects anymore and so all ofour team is really dispersed,
and that's just for bandwidthsake, because we've got so many
clients that in differentorganizations and different
projects that are going, and sowe, we, uh, we want to make sure
that.
So we were, we were gettingtogether for a full day.
Well, um, that day wasincredibly engaging because of
(10:20):
we were creating which is a bigthing, like a meeting.
I'll get more to that theaction items in just a second.
The takeaways I don't I'mgetting ahead of myself here,
but the meeting was fullyengaging and we finished up on
day one around 10 o'clock atnight, maybe 11.
And so now you're and, by theway, then day two, we had some
(10:42):
of the leaders of our company,some of the folks that lead up
the training side of ourorganization, with lead in 30.
And then the three new coursesthat we rolled out in the last
few months of of decide in 30,of adapt in 30 and power in 30,
these three new courses that arejust oh my gosh.
We thought there was going tobe demand in the marketplace for
(11:04):
it.
We had no idea.
And so, like there's just theamount of work that's going on
in our organization, theadditional team members that
we're having to to bring on tohandle the demand around those
three new courses is off thecharts.
People who've been through leadin 30 are like, oh my gosh,
clarity, alignment, movementthat's amazing, or whatever.
Whatever they get these results, and like the the amount of
(11:26):
change that's happening in ourindustry or in our company or
out there.
We've got to better equip ourmanagers to be able to deal with
it anyway.
So we're building, we're, we'rebuilding some of the strategies
around different things andexecuting, and how are we going
to meet market demand?
And yada, yada, yada.
That was day two.
So we've got additional peopleit's not just the founders, it's
now a broader team and thensome outsiders and different
(11:46):
things that we invited.
So that day meeting went from.
It went all day.
We ended at four.
Everybody was engaged.
We could have gone longer, butwe did a few.
We did a few things.
We did a few things that madeus stay engaged that late, and
then with some members of theteam, we went till 11, 11 pm and
(12:07):
it was a full day.
Well, how, russ, these seem tobe contradictions.
You're telling me about thismeeting in the Midwest where
you're telling the seniorexecutive let's cut it at 2.30.
And then you tell me that youcan go all day into late at
night.
How does that work?
Okay, here's the takeaway.
And, by the way, there's a bunchof research, and let me quote
just a few of them.
(12:27):
So one of these studies isMicrosoft, what they call their
human factors lab, where theyactually used EEGs and they
monitored brain activity.
They monitored stress levels ofpeople in meetings.
Another study that we've beenlooking at is the Journal of
Occupational Health, psychologyand cognitive engagement levels
(12:52):
in meetings, virtually and onsite.
And then the last study thatwe've spent a lot of time
looking at is the MIT Sloanremote meeting study.
All of these are within thelast few years.
Two of the three were withinthe last 12 months and I'm going
to share with you the findings,the scientific research driven
(13:17):
brain science studies, and it'sgoing to back up everything you
already know.
And so why aren't we adjusting?
So here's I'm going to stay atthe offsite or the full day
meeting and then I'm going to govirtual in just a minute.
A lot of you who aren't doingoffsites I want, I want you to
have this data so you can, youcan adjust how offsites that
(13:38):
you're a part of, you cansuggest this to your boss or
when you're doing an offsite,you, you, you know what the
science shows.
Here's what one of the thingsthat we found is you don't go
all day, you, you take massivebreaks, and a few things that I
would.
I would throw at you that I'mgoing to go relatively quick and
stay at a high level on,because I've got to do this in
(14:00):
less than 30 minutes and wecould do this.
We could take literally liketwo hours and barely cover the
surface on this.
So one of the ways that we'vereally worked on engagement at
our off sites is we don't tostart an offsite.
Why?
Because the concern, the issue.
(14:27):
There's a couple of reasons.
The concern that most peoplecoming to your offsite have is
oh my gosh, I've got so muchgoing on.
How am I going to stay up todate with the emails, the calls,
the different things, theprojects that I've got done?
I've got to get that to aclient, all those sorts of
things.
So you create the offsite withtime for them to work on them,
so they can get up at 7 am, 6 am, whatever it is, and they've
(14:48):
got that first hour of theworkday from eight to nine to
get stuff done.
And so let them get stuff done.
Start at 10, start at nine inour company on day one.
Typically we did a little bitdifferent this week because of
the volume of what we needed toget to, but typically we we
split the two-day off sites umover the two days and we start
at noon on day one, noon at dayone, and the reason is we go
(15:13):
noon to four or noon to five.
We take a few, but you had thewhole morning to do work.
You had the whole morning to,to, to get things done, and then
and then we're start, and thenthe engagement and the endorphin
rush and the dopamine and allthat comes from being in person
and in the same room and ideasthat, that, that that's all
(15:33):
hitting in the afternoon and andby the time you're getting
tired, four or five hours in,we're done.
We're done with it.
Okay, the other reason to notstart at 8 am and to start at 9
or 10, beyond what I just saidis to allow people to go to
breakfast and network togetherto be able to have interaction.
Now our recommendation to youwould be don't schedule that.
(15:57):
Don't make it an on-demandthing, because that's part of it
.
You think that, oh, we'rehaving breakfast for an hour,
people can do whatever, and thenwe're having this social
activity and then we're going togo to Topgolf or we're going to
go drive race cars, and thenyou've taken my schedule.
I'm with you from 7 am with thebreakfast, or 730, till nine
(16:19):
o'clock at night.
You fried me, even though we'redoing active things and it's
social or whatever.
You told like you know, likethe active stuff is good and
that, and team building and allthat, but I need breaks to get
away from everybody.
I need breaks to get thingsdone.
I want to go back to my hotelroom.
I want to go have a one-on-onemeeting with this person or that
(16:44):
person.
I want to go outside andbrainstorm.
I want to.
I want some time to schedulesome time with that person and
the other functional area tojust talk.
I want to just talk.
I want to go find somebody andgo do something where I'm
catching up with them about howthey're doing in life and ask
them about, you know, theirlong-term plan.
Are they going to stay with thecompany?
How are they feeling about this?
Dig into different things, andI can't do that at these big
(17:07):
social events, whether it'sbreakfast or go-kart racing or
whatever else.
And so don't take all of my time.
If you want my best ideas, youwant my best energy, you want
this to be a source of energyfor everybody in that first day,
take four or five hours.
That includes the meal thateverybody comes to, that
(17:28):
includes the activity orwhatever else.
That's it.
That's it.
Watch what happens.
I promise you, if you have anoffsite and let's say you have
20 people coming or you have 400, give them three to four or
five hours of free time duringthat day and then ask for
(17:50):
feedback.
I promise you you will get anenormous amount of positive
feedback, an enormous amount,and then you start the next day.
So let's then then you do thesame thing in day two.
The other option to this whichwe've tried in our company, our
firm, based on what we've seen,best practices and other
organizations, and we loved itand we saw the difference in
(18:11):
energy level, the difference inideation, the different level
and engagement, that the othermodel is you start at noon or
one.
On day one, you go till four.
You give people their evening.
You might have a short activity, short an hour or two, like
quick, don't take the wholeevening.
You might love it, they don't.
And then and there are somepeople who will, but there are a
(18:33):
lot of people who don't andthey can't get as much done and
then day two, start at nine, noteight, start at nine, go to
noon or one, and then you'redone.
That's it.
Less is more, less is more.
Now let's talk about virtual,and then I'm going to back up
(18:55):
the science and share with you afew of the findings in a minute
.
Virtual meetings is virtualmeetings.
We just do not have tolerancefor these to go long and and and
the takeaway, the punchlinefrom all of the all of the
research, again, what youalready know is these back to
back to back virtual meetingsare the death of your
organization.
If you want to watch engagementdip, if you want to watch
(19:16):
ideation plummet, if you want towatch burnout skyrocket,
schedule long virtual meetingsand create a culture where
people have back to back to backto back to back virtual
meetings, it's death.
It's not productive.
You think it's productive.
You look at schedules.
(19:36):
I look at somebody in our firm'sschedule and they're working
from home that day and I seethree meetings, virtually for a
half hour each on their calendarand I think that's a productive
employee, that's an engagedperson.
I look at somebody's calendar.
You know how you can see eachother's calendars in a company,
right, and I look at somebody'scalendar and I see eight virtual
(19:59):
meetings, six virtual meetingswith no break or very little
break in between, and I thinkthat's a burned out employee,
that's someone who we're notgetting the best from.
That's somebody who's going tobe struggling, right, and in so
many companies the culture isthe opposite.
It's a badge of courage.
Look at my calendar it's fullof virtual meetings.
(20:21):
I am so important, yeah, andyou're not generating much,
you're not ideating, you're notconnecting with people, you're
not sitting and thinking alone,you're not problem solving,
you're not digging deep into theprojects, you're not taking us
into the future.
So what's the ideal?
So the number of virtualmeetings in a day limit, limit
(20:44):
it.
And one way to do this a hack,if you want to get super
tactical is you look at yourschedule a few days out and it
depends on your organization andyou create buffers.
So you've got a meeting thatpopped up virtual depends on
your organization and you createbuffers.
So you've got a meeting thatpopped up virtual meeting on
your calendar at 8 AM.
So the next two hours you put a, you, you put an appointment on
(21:05):
your calendar and outlook orwhatever.
You block it off and, dependingon your organization, if
anybody challenges you on that,leave the company.
Like, like, let's just be real,somebody's looking at that and
go.
Well, what are those two thingsLike that, like you don't want
to work for that boss?
Do they not trust you?
Are they going to micromanageit that much?
Like?
And if you don't have the spaceor ability to build that in.
(21:26):
And I'm not saying that therearen't weeks where you're
overloaded.
Yeah, that happens, that andthat's going to happen.
But I'm talking about week in,week out.
Let that be the outlier, theexception where it's back to
back to back to back.
We're all going to have that inoccasional weeks.
If that's every week, you'redone, You're done.
And so put block out two hours,block out an hour, so no one can
(21:48):
grab that.
They see that you're busy andthen, and then you've got the
next virtual meeting or whateverit is, and then block it out,
block the calendar out.
I do that in our organization.
That time's just not availablebecause I want, when we connect,
I want to be at my best Ifyou're right after the next one
or whatever.
Whatever you're not going toget the best.
Okay, what's the ideal length ofa virtual meeting?
(22:10):
30 minutes.
All the data suggests it.
30 minutes is ideal.
Um surveys show that.
The, the, the academic researchthat's been done on and there's
been a ton on virtual meetingsshow that.
Now you think well, I've got 10people on this, we can't go 30
minutes.
Or I've got a one-on-one withsomebody and we need an hour.
(22:31):
Okay, go an hour, but just knowthat engagement levels start to
dip after 30 minutes, accordingto all the brain research and
there's lots of reasons for that.
You can just search for it inchat, gpt or any place else you
want to AI will spit out all abunch of crap that's related to
this for you If you want to digdeeper in it, if you want to
(22:52):
verify any of it and and and.
So what if I've got a teammeeting, so I've got 20 people,
or I've got 40 people, or I'vegot a cross-functional meeting
that we have Do not go longerthan 90 on the high end.
Like, let's say it's exception,you got to go longer.
They're like this big thing andwe're getting all these people,
(23:12):
or whatever it is, two hoursmax.
Two hours max, these four hour.
We actually have other companiesin our space that certify, you
know, like, like we certifypeople to be able to facilitate,
lead in 30 or adapt in 30internally, like these are HR, l
and D leaders, that sort ofthing, right, and?
(23:34):
And so we certify them to wherethey can deliver our IP, our
content, structured in thescientifically backed, highly
engaged way that we do it withblended learning and a cohort
and all that stuff, right.
So we certify people in that.
Other companies that certifypeople in content, they do these
certification meetings that areeight hours virtually, six
(23:55):
hours, virtually Are you insane?
That is our.
Our certification is two hoursone day, virtually.
Two hours the next day,virtually.
There is no way we're takingyou past the two hour mark.
You people are not listeningtheir, their, their capacity,
called cognitive overload, right, that that's a huge thing.
(24:18):
And then these, these, uh, thesestress levels that happen.
So let me give you a little bitof the re.
So.
So, frequency of virtualmeetings no more than three or
four day.
Look at your people's calendars.
What's the norm in yourorganization?
If everybody's got them stackedlike boom boom, boom, boom over
you, like that's a, do not besurprised when you get the
(24:41):
employee engagement scores back.
Do not be surprised when you'renot innovating.
Do not be surprised when you'vegot all these sorts of things
right.
That, that is too, that's a,that that is a warning sign for
you.
So, um, let's just share, bulletpoint real quick, a couple of
these studies.
So microsoft human factors lab,this, uh, brainwave study that
(25:03):
they did.
They, they put eegs on peopleand then have them go to
back-to-back virtual meetings.
The stress level that theyshowed was enormous.
What?
What they recommended?
Instead of giving you a ton ofdata about this study, what I'll
tell you is they said break it.
Everything I've advocated cameout is related to their study
(25:25):
and others and our ownexperience, but the data shows
it.
The science backs it up.
They suggested a minimum of 10minute breaks between meetings
if they have to be back to back,but the real solution is an
hour or two between them andonly about three a day.
Let's talk about the Journal ofOccupational Health Psychology.
(25:45):
What they showed was thatprolonged cognitive engagement
in meetings creates mentalunderload and mental overload.
This is the research, research.
One of the research things onthese off-sites are long
meetings and the cognitiveunderload.
Like I when I first saw thatterm described, as I'm like what
(26:06):
does underload mean?
And what it means is you'rebored.
You've tuned out so many ofthese off-sites that we go to in
organizations.
They spend the time doingbriefings.
Hey, let's have accounting, dothis, we're going to take an
hour on that.
And then marketing is going tospend two hours updating.
(26:27):
And then HR is going to do theemployee engagement score
updates and then we're going tospend an hour after lunch where
sales updates us on this andthen research and development is
going to take two hours andlike just get all sharp objects
away from me.
That is death.
(26:48):
There's not a C singleexecutive on your team that
likes that.
That's not the way to getengagement.
Yes, you have briefings, butthey can't look like that.
You're experiencing under load,which is okay.
I have checked out and so thatwhat, the what, what the brain
(27:08):
activity showed is just okay.
It depletes.
This is what happens at 2 PM.
At 3 PM, I'm like, oh, I'm justout of it.
Overload is I'm actually tunedin.
So the cognitive overload isI'm actually tuned in and paying
attention and my capacity tostore or process everything
that's come at me today in thislong offsite meeting or in this
(27:31):
two and a half hour virtualmeeting, it's done.
There's no more room in the cupfor more water.
Stop pouring it in.
That's what was so brilliantabout the executive in the
Midwest a week or two ago.
Two, 30, guess what?
We're leaving in the in the cupmore room.
So people walk out energizedlike, wow, number one, thanks
(27:54):
for giving me some time back.
That I wasn't expecting.
That's a huge win.
And number two, I'm wow.
I could have gone for anothertwo or three hours.
I've got more juice left in me.
Yep, we're good.
They walk out of there on fire.
You should have seen the energylevel in these people.
And so this that that is whatI'd have you think about.
(28:14):
The length of your meetings, thefrequency of them virtually
off-site all of that.
Our meetings are too long,we're pushing too much into them
and we need the CEO, bless hisheart.
That told us to go till fivewas wrong.
I started ending the meetingsearly Two o'clock, three o'clock
(28:34):
.
You know what happened.
I got invited back more andmore.
Those accounts, those accountsexpanded.
His approach was wrong.
The shorter meeting actuallyled to more engagement, less
people feeling energized and mycontracts, my engagement with
these organizations.
They were like russ.
We want the team back.
We'll come back like we need todo.
(28:56):
Can you be back in 30 days?
Come back, we're like we needto do it.
Can you be back in 30 days?
As opposed to, his theory waswell, we go to five and they're
going to feel.
They're going to feel like wow,we gave them so much, so much
value that they're going to knowthey were done.
They had tuned out at two orthree.
Anyway, you get the point.
That is what's on my mind inthis episode of the lead in 30
(29:16):
podcast share this episode witha colleague, your team or a
friend.
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Tap on the share button and text the link.
Thanks for listening to thelead in 30 podcast with russ
hill.
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