July 15, 2025 • 44 mins
Are 10,000+ commissioned ministers in the LCMS being overlooked at the highest levels of church leadership? In this eye-opening episode, Tim Ahlman sits down with Bob McKinney, Dr. Jonathan Laabs, and Audrey Duensing-Werner to confront the decades-long tension around voting rights and representation for commissioned ministers in the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod.
Why, after 16 attempts across multiple conventions, is the Synod still resisting change? What's really holding us back: polity, fear, or a misunderstanding of power and ministry?
This conversation isn’t about titles. It’s about team, honor, and advancing the gospel in a post-Christian age. Whether you're a pastor, lay leader, DCE, teacher, or simply love your local church — this is a conversation the entire Synod needs to hear.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here.
Jack Calberg has a day off.
I pray the joy of Jesus is withyou that you got your water,
you worked out, you're movingyour body, maybe you're driving
into wherever it is.
You're going to advance thecause of Christ, be it a local
church, in your marketplacebusiness.
But you just want to learn, andthat's what Lead Time is all
about.
And I got three guests todaythat are going to educate us on
(00:25):
the topic of commissionedministers in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
I have Bob McKinney with me.
He is a 48-year DCE praise God,eight calls, three states.
He has served as a marriage andfamily therapist, married for
54 years to his wife Eunice.
What a joy.
They have two adult daughters,one granddaughter.
(00:47):
Hey, Bob, how you doing,brother?
What a joy to get to know youtoday.
Good to be with you guys.
Okay, let's do it.
Let's do it.
We also have Dr Jonathan Labs.
He is serving as the executivedirector of the Lutheran
Education Association for 28years and he has 48 years of
Lutheran education experience.
This is going to be a lot offun, Dr Labs.
(01:08):
How are you doing, brother?
I'm great, thank you.
Yeah, this is going to be good.
And then we have Audrey DunzineWarner.
Audrey and I got to hang out atone of our Accelerator ULC
gatherings.
She has served as a DCE for 31years.
In the last almost three yearsnow working with my brother,
Pastor Dan Shetman, at GloriaDay in Nassau Bay.
You doing well, Audrey, Great.
All right, let's kick it off.
(01:30):
Jonathan, go to you.
Give us the overview of thehistory of commission ministers
in the LCMS.
How has it evolved over theyears?
Obviously we're going to get tothe topic of commission
ministers, amazing men and women, serving as DCEs, directors of
(01:50):
outreach, DCOs we haven'tDirectors of Christian Outreach,
haven't heard about them in awhile.
We also have, obviously, awhole bunch of administrators
and educators who are servingunder this kind of commission
ministry banner.
You're represented atgatherings like Kindle that's
our DCE gatherings and LutheranEducator Association gatherings
(02:11):
that, Jonathan, you kind of puttogether.
But as it relates to districtand synod representation, it's
been hard to figure out what todo with you guys.
Where do they fit?
So, yeah, that's where we'regoing to be hanging out today.
Jonathan, give us a little bitof the history.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
The good news is we've had no problem figuring
out what to do.
So our calling is very clearand that's been a part of the
real interesting dynamics ofthis over the years.
We've all been a part of a lotof this through many of the
years, but none of us go back tothe very beginning of this,
which is really the beginning ofthe Synod in 1847.
(02:46):
As we look back, it's a littlebit surprising sometimes to
realize, you know, this problemisn't new.
From the very beginning, fromthe onset, with the LCMS, it was
constructed in the same way itoperates right now, and there
are two basic tenets to thatthat are written.
One is the equality ofcongregations, which at that
time were several dozen and ofcourse today are many more.
(03:08):
But the idea behind all of that, which has become debated today
as well, is that everycongregation has an equal vote.
And then the other part of thatis the balance of power and
quoting there that would not bea term I would use, but from
other documents the balance ofpower between clergy and laity
and the fact that there would bean equal representation of
(03:30):
those congregations.
And then, from the beginning,there was the understanding that
there were those who were noteligible to vote, and there were
three categories that werelisted in documents that we
found.
One was pastors, who aren'tauthorized to be the
representative from theircongregation.
Secondly, there were candidatesfor the office of pastor, and
then at that time, there wereteachers.
(03:51):
So from the beginning it wasdesigned that there was this
third category that would not beeligible to vote, even though
and I want to make sure Iemphasize this because a lot of
people don't know it theconstitution of the synod, from
its inception, involved teachersas members of the synod.
There are three categories ofmembership congregations, clergy
(04:14):
and commission and so it'simportant to understand this.
All started with that way backat that point.
Just one point to make, andthen there are a lot of other
things to talk about.
The word commission came later.
Teachers were obviously theones who were, pretty much from
the beginning, a part of thatministry, along with the pastors
.
But as there were a variety ofministries that were formed over
(04:38):
the years, the word commissionminister came in in the 70s, 80s
, as it was all being developed,and so the bylaws started
reflecting the development, thetraining and the commissioning
of those workers.
So that group had differentnames along the way, but it's
essentially based on the samepremise.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's interesting Commissioned and I would include
and I got a whole bunch ofworship leaders that are
probably mad at me right nowthat I didn't include all of our
worship leaders.
But there's a big bucketcategory in Synod and you are
rostered, so you count but youdon't get a say in who is
(05:17):
leading in our various districtsand Synod.
That's been the general story,and the reason is then the
professional and I hate usingthis word as well, but the
professional or rostered churchworker role would have a larger
voice than the laity, and sowe've kind of just said we're
going to have pastor, we'regoing to have the lay man or
(05:40):
woman be able to vote, but butcommission ministers, you're in
but you don't get a voice.
Bob, anything more to add Iknow you've been thinking about
this for quite a while to thathistory that Jonathan just
shared, as I researched itcoming out of Miami's convention
and read the document that cameout of COP coming out of Miami.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I haven't got it right in front of me and before
I'd say this in a microphone Iwould want to count this to make
sure.
But as I tracked backwards, theSenate's own document said that
this issue has come up about 16times in the cycles of Synod
(06:26):
and district conventions.
16 times in Synod, okay, andthere was one gap there of about
40 years or 35 years where itdidn't come up.
But it's resurged itself thatmany times.
And then the current position Ithink is the resurgence has
gotten some wheels by using oneof the tools that put Christian
(06:52):
ministers and a voice in theactual district convention floor
, and so that tool is expandingand there seems to be a little
bit more of a movement.
So this is a timelyconversation.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, that's good.
Can you give me a little bit ofwhat is happening now at a
number of districts, as we'rekind of trying at the district
level at least, which is, Iwould say, more simple than the
national convention?
Right, you'd think it'd becommensurate, but I think it is
more complex at the nationallevel.
But districts are trying somecreative things.
(07:25):
My district in the PSD istrying some creative things.
Would you give me and there'sprobably a variety of different
things that are being triedCould you give us some of the
variety of methods to have thecommission voice at least be
heard by those that are voting?
Yeah, who would you like torespond there?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, go ahead, bob.
You start with Jonathan, whohas longevity of using a tool
that puts puts commissionministers voice from out of the
floor committee status right onthe on the floor of district
conventions.
But he's done it in NID.
He's watched that happen overnumerous cycles.
(08:02):
That's kind of the mother, yes.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
What happened.
Pastor Bill Hameis was presidentat the time and he decided that
, beyond our ability to go tothe microphone and speak, which
has been there all along, itwould be more important to be
able to have the advisorydelegates also actually vote in
a preliminary way to give adviceby their vote, vote in a
(08:26):
preliminary way to give adviceby their vote.
And so it actually started withgreen and red placards that were
handed to the delegates, theadvisory delegates and, by the
way, not just the commission,teachers, dces, but also the
other advisory delegates thatwere pastors there, and then
they would hold them up and theywould actually look at those as
a body ahead of time.
With technology, eventually wewere also given the voting
(08:47):
devices, and that's what'shappening in many of the
districts right now.
We just had our NID conventionin March and so they would take
a preliminary vote, we wouldvote as the others would do,
everybody would see it, and thenthey go on to the main.
Vote Didn't take place for allthe votes or for elections, but
for a good number of them, andthat's been happening over, as
Bob said, a few cycles.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That's great, audrey, anything more.
What have you experienced?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yeah, lots of conversation in the last, you
know, several years at the atthe root of the commission
ministers and in their pocketsof places from NADC to LEA.
To that we need to educate,educate, educate and talk about
it in our little pockets ofinfluence around the Synod.
(09:34):
And so it's coming to thesurface much stronger than it
has been years ago, just becausepeople are like, hey, we have
boots on the ground here umyears ago.
Um, just because people arelike on hey, we have boots on
the ground here, um, we are theones that are immersed in the
middle of ministry, um, uh, inour congregations and our
schools, in our, um, in ourplaces of influence, and so, um,
(09:56):
let's have conversation abouthow we can have more of a voice
in that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting.
So what do you think is at theroot of this?
I mean, you have a topic that'sbeen brought up, bob, 16 times.
That's extraordinary Without asatisfactory conclusion.
And I don't like power balanceof power.
I said it.
Unfortunately, man, it's verypower centric and those who have
(10:23):
it and those who don't, and andthen I think, the estimation
that that other people want it.
I'm going to throw something outright now.
Uh, I do not do this podcast tobecome a leader at a district
or national level at all, likethat seems that that is the one
of the furthest things from mymind.
It sounds very, very difficultto do.
(10:45):
The reason I'm just going toexpose why I do this podcast is
for the advancement of thegospel at the local level,
whatever it takes to talk aboutthings that help the local
church thrive, and that could befirst article realities, how
healthy teams function, all theway to theology.
We need to talk about thedifficult points in theology for
us to unite to advance thecause of Christ, and I think the
(11:07):
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod,confessional Lutheranism has a
strong potential right now andthis is we're going to see if
it's realized a strong potentialto be a real force for kingdom
expanding good in the currentclimate of a post-Christian,
pre-christian day and age inwhich we live.
That's why I do this.
So power is not my motive, noteven close to that.
(11:29):
But as it relates to thecommission minister, it would be
an imbalance of power manypeople say.
So what is it that keeps usfrom having some sort of a
satisfactory conclusion?
To make sure, commissionministers are voting.
And I'll just throw somethingout.
We've had difference of opinionregarding women in ministry and
(11:51):
their voice being heard, andobviously I'd love to go to you,
jonathan.
I mean, we used to not evenhave women as teachers, like a
century ago, right?
I mean we didn't even haveeducators.
And so we're trying to respondto.
Women are in these various andthey have influence in these
very.
Oh, I don't know how this feelsfor us as a synod.
Is that a little bit of what'sbehind it?
(12:12):
I'm just teasing at why thishas been such a difficult,
difficult conversation to cometo a satisfactory conclusion.
It seems like we should be ableto figure something out,
jonathan.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I'll go to you first and then we'll talk about why it
is an issue for some simplybecause of lack of knowledge or
fear or just not being trained,you know, into what ministry
really is.
I mean, it's not scriptural,it's not doctrinal.
Ministry is ministry, missionis mission, and you know, we
teach it and we profess it andwe confess it together, and yet
(12:43):
there's this human fear thatcomes into play and then there's
the power part of it that is tome just dysfunctional.
So in our church body we don'thave the ability to make a lot
of changes in many areas.
This isn't the only issuethat's been going down through
decades that we've been tryingto address over the years.
But when you have the samepeople with the same structure
(13:04):
over all of these decadesperpetuating the same process
Bob mentioned how many timesthis has formally come to the
surface, but the reason nothinghappens is that it's put aside
in omnibus resolutions.
It's not brought to the floor.
We had a strong series of yearsfrom Dr Kucinich back in 2005,
where there was some realprogress being made toward
(13:26):
sweeping changes and dramaticthings that could happen in the
Senate, and after four yearsthere was a formal report made,
some very progressive thingsthat were suggested and brought
to the convention and there werea whole bunch of changes that
were made and there were a wholebunch of things that weren't
this particular one.
There was a very specificsuggestion to modify our bylaws
(13:47):
so that we could make thesechanges, because it's all just
polity that we have the abilityto do that and it was never
brought to the floor because ofstrategies that were keeping it
from there.
It's a lot like our governmentand filibustering and all of
that.
I mean it's dangerous the waythat that can keep us from
progressing, and it happens atthe district levels as well.
(14:10):
But it's just.
I've seen these conventions nowfor the last 35, 40 years.
All of us have experienced thatand it just doesn't change.
It has that inability to beable to move forward and to be
able to make those changes andin a church body that's changing
and growing in a variety ofways that are so different than
(14:32):
before, we have to finddifferent ways of making those
decisions.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Audrey, anything to add?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, ditto right before.
We have to find different waysof making those decisions.
Audrey, anything to add?
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, dittoright.
I think like the underlyingpiece of this is fear.
There's some sort of fear.
I was telling somebody the otherday that I started 31, really
32 years ago in ministry andwomen in ministry.
We've come a long way, but it'sbeen a lot of intentional
(14:57):
movement forward andconversations and tilling the
soil and raising up people thatcan have a loving conversation
around that.
And sometimes it's reallyoppressive to some.
They'll look and they'll go.
This is so hard because it's sodaunting To take it on.
(15:22):
It's like eating an elephant,right?
You have to do those littletiny bites at a time.
And actually, bob and John asall three of us have been
visiting the last three or fouryears together we're like, yeah,
we just got to start on thatdistrict level and continue.
Just keep the conversationgoing, keep the conversation
going, because it's so importantand there are so many people
(15:42):
who really truly are on the samepage that we're on too.
It's just like how do we breakthrough that wall so that it
doesn't just keep going back tothe old pot of where we were in
leadership?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, bob Tim.
I think, maybe to come from thehistory and then move to pretty
recent history.
One of the tools that's beingdeployed is that commission
ministers have somerepresentatives that are on the
(16:20):
district floor and they have theability to share advice before
the vote is taken on thebusiness issues not on elections
, but on the business issues andthose numbers are put on the
screen as a perspective not as avote, but as a perspective,
sort of a snapshot, sort ofhere's where we are as
(16:41):
commission ministers on thatparticular thing, and in PSD,
it's amazing to me that thepercentage of the vote meaning
for and against thosepercentages almost mirrors the
actual vote that comes from thepastors and the laypersons.
Now, that happened last year,not last year, in our last 2022
(17:06):
cycle, but we didn't have a realcontentious convention.
It was pretty nice, okay.
It was pretty nice okay.
What happened then, coming outof Miami and then moving into
(17:27):
Milwaukee, is this tool and someinstructions in terms of how to
use it.
As we pass that around Theninto Milwaukee, seven districts
had utilized this tool orintended to utilize that tool,
are intended to utilize thattool.
Now, that's as Audria said.
We need to start at thedistrict level, I think, in
order to affect the Senate level.
But one of the strategies is iflast cycle we had seven, what
if we had teens?
(17:49):
What if we had 13 or 14 nexttime?
And next cycle, what if we arein the 20s?
Out of the 30, some odddistricts OK, that's a slow way
to say hey, you know, the placedidn't fall apart, the pastors
didn't get run out of town andwhat happened is commission
ministers were able to say whothey are and what they do and
(18:12):
what they bring to the ministryof our church that we all love
and we're trained with.
But that never.
Those seven things never gotout of the floor.
Committee never made it to thefloor.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So for that to happen , the districts that are
utilizing this advisory it's nota vote but advisory opinion
using technology, pre-voting onnon-elected positions or issues.
I guess that model could besomething that is used.
(18:45):
A circuit could have a pastorand most every circuit has some
sort of a commission minister, Iwould imagine across the synod
right.
So every circuit could have oneadvisory delegate who are going
to offer their opinion prior tosome of our issues, some of the
resolutions that are gettingvoted on.
Is that something you wouldlike to write up a resolution
(19:06):
toward, and has that beenactually written?
And this is what I, dr Labs, Ithink this is what you're saying
right.
We've sent on this resolutionfrom districts and then it gets
in a floor committee, gets kindof sidelined.
Does that happen a number oftimes, jonathan?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, it has, and there have been a number of very
specific things and a number ofgeneral things that have been
brought.
Bob was referring to coming tothe Milwaukee convention.
There were some ideas that werebeing brought out and there was
a report that was generated asa result of a study and, by the
way, lots of great informationand history and a lot of things
were brought out about that butit generally concluded that we
(19:45):
shouldn't go ahead this was whatwas told to the convention
because we haven't been able tofind ways to do it before.
That's my analysis of it andthere were a lot of things in
there that just didn't makesense to me.
So we keep perpetuating that.
It didn't allow for a new way oflooking at it and I think the
(20:06):
ability for the Senate to beable to consider new ideas has
to come with an openness to havethat kind of dialogue on the
floor and not cut things at theknees.
Even in our district and NIDwhere this was started, there
were three opportunities toconsider a resolution from three
congregations about new ways oflooking at voting and even in
(20:27):
our district it was put intoomnibus and it never even got to
the district floor, so it wentbackward at the district level
when we were making progress.
All of those things are because, again, we have a system that
doesn't allow us to be able tocontinue to bring things out and
to be open enough to talkingabout it and when we had great
opportunities, like we did inthe late 2000s, from 2005 to
(20:49):
2010, it comes to one conventionand then it's cut and then you
don't see it again, unless it'sbrought up afterward and then
it's cut and then you don't seeit again unless it's brought up
afterward.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well, you all have such a profound heart for Jesus.
He has a love for you and,obviously, educating young and
old with the gospel.
Praise, be to God.
And part of our characterdevelopment is handling
difficult conversations and Idon't understand why we can't
talk about things publicly, onpodcasts or whatever, and we can
(21:21):
disagree agreeably.
I don't.
That's been one of the biggestI causes for concern for me over
the seven, eight years I'vebeen doing.
This podcast is inviting peopleon that.
I know I have a difference ofopinion.
I'm not going to.
We can still be brothers andhave differences of opinion and
and have open discourse.
I think it's a great day andage in which we live for the
church to model public discoursein a healthy, constructive way
(21:45):
where we're going to agree onway more than we disagree on.
For sure we're in the samehouse, right?
We're in the same churchcommunity.
So any thoughts, audrey, on whywe struggle so much to have
difficult conversations in thesynod?
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Not having enough education about it,
conversations about it.
I think it ultimately comesdown to fear, like the fear of
the unknown.
Right In 2025, we should beable to sit at a table, each of
us have a seat at the table andbe able to wrestle with that
together in love, in the name ofJesus, and the richness of that
(22:22):
, the richness of the wrestlingof that conversation anytime
I've had really good wrestlingconversations where my opinion
is completely different than theperson across the table.
It has sharpened me.
Sharpened me to a place ofwhere my heart has been open to
(22:42):
really understanding the wholepicture of what it is and seeing
the movement of the Holy Spiritin it all, rather than shutting
it down and not allowing theHoly Spirit to have a bigger
movement in this than right.
It's just, it's all of thatkind of stuff.
I know, as John and Bob and Ihave had lots and lots of
(23:03):
conversations around this lotsof Zoom, calls on steps to take,
continually moving thisconversation forward.
One of the things that Bob hassaid and I don't know where the
quote came from, but I rememberit and I connect it to Bob is he
said if it wasn't for thecommission minister, the face of
the gospel would be differentin our synod, and that's so rich
(23:27):
to me to say to invite us tohave a seat at that table for
conversation.
And it is not a power thing atleast not in our hearts.
It's not a power thing, it's a.
It's a because we are part ofthe part of the entire community
.
We're, we're commissionedentire community.
(23:56):
We're commissioned, we'retrained, we're rostered, we work
on the boots on the ground, inour places and spaces that we
minister to children, youth andtheir families throughout the
Senate, and so God is speakingto us and using us in powerful
ways in our local places andspaces, and so to not have a
voice then on the national levelis just unheard of.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Bob, anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think of some of the descriptors that we use for
ourselves in commission ministry, and a helpful one is that we
consider ourselves to be andtrain people coming out of
schools, that we are secondchair people, and if that card
(24:44):
could be played more, that wouldbe helpful to knock down some
of this fear thing that we're inteam.
We're linked to a pastor.
Whether he's good, bad or ugly,you know, we're linked to that
pastor and what happens there iscritical in terms of the
(25:05):
tentacles that commissionministers have into the
community through their schools,through their preschools,
through their youth ministry,those kinds of things.
And what we do is we bringpeople to know who Jesus Christ
is and to build into them adesire to be baptized, into that
.
And that's the pastor'sfunction, that's what we do.
(25:28):
We bring them in in that kindof way, not fearful at all about
any kind of takeover of power.
It's ministry and it's allabout Jesus and it's bringing
people to Jesus Christ as theirLord and Savior.
That's what we know and that'swhat we love and I don't think
we play.
We're second chair, we'relinked to a team.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
I think the average parishioner in the Synod doesn't
realize that we are called intothe public ministry.
So this is what differentiatesin the way that it was intended
in the beginning, that this isthe reason that we are fully
members of Synod, because we area part of that public ministry.
Not Word and Sacrament totallythat's the pastor's public
(26:10):
ministry, but we're a part ofthat public ministry to not
warden sacrament totally that'sthe pastor's public ministry,
but we're a part of that publicministry to work on behalf of
the church.
That's why the call, that'swhat leads to the call and
that's why the distinction ofthe roster status, not over and
above anybody else, because wework in team now with a growing
majority of others who are inministry, who are a part of that
(26:30):
in our places, in our schools,in our congregations, in our
communities.
But there's a special callingfor those who are trained and
equipped for that and I thinkthat not to have those people
who are in that particularposition of public ministry in
part, not to be able to have thesame ability to be able to make
decisions and to be able toadvance and move things forward
(26:54):
by voting I know the excusesthat have been used in a lot of
the reports is that voice isenough and that's the way it
should be, and we just disagree.
It's like in the American publichow would you not allow
somebody who is a citizen of theUnited States to vote?
It just doesn't make sense tosuggest that somebody can speak
and not vote.
Somebody who is a citizen ofthe United States to vote.
It just doesn't make sense tosuggest that somebody can speak
and not vote.
It's a right and in our churchit's especially something that
(27:16):
needs to be addressed.
So it never has made sense.
There's certainly no scripturalor doctrinal reason for it not
to happen.
It's purely the ability of ourchurch not to be able to make
those changes.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Just thinking of one.
Has there ever been a time whenthe commission minister was
placed as a lay vote, like theywould have an opportunity to
have a commission minister?
Because I don't like that.
I don't think that's a greatanswer either, because I think
we need the lay vote.
You've been called into publicministry, so yeah, even as I'm
kind of throwing that out there,I don't think it's satisfactory
(27:49):
.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
So we've thrown out some it's a part of the
conundrum and it's been takenboth ways.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
You know there isn't an easy answer for it, but there
actually have been suggestionsand solutions, like I said in
that in that 2009 report thatmade a lot of sense.
That don't upset the balance.
You just have to look at itdifferently.
And was that solution theadvisory voice?
You just have to look at itdifferently.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
And was that solution the advisory voice.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
No, it was the voting voice.
It was one of the ways of yeah,I know NID spent a lot of time
on this and other districts didtoo.
When you look at the synodicalstructure, you don't have direct
representation fromcongregations anyway.
Right, you don't have 6,000.
That was changed at that oneconvention to have that for the
election of the president.
So that became the popular vote, so to speak, from all the
(28:34):
congregations.
But for everything else, westill have the circuit.
So it's at the circuit levelthat even some of the people who
are resistant to other ideasstarted thinking.
Maybe at the circuit level it'sall selected by congregation,
so we're not taking away fromthat.
But why should thecongregations in a circuit be
limited to just two voices?
Why not have three voices froma circuit and change that
(28:57):
structure that would allow for acommission minister to be one
of them?
You're not taking anything awayfrom congregations, you're just
adding additional votes.
There's nothing wrong with that, but that was the one that
never made it to the floor ofthat convention in 2010.
And then it's taken all thistime, for a variety of reasons,
(29:17):
that when you have differentideas that come back again, it's
hard to reintroduce them, butthere are very specific
suggestions that were raised andsometimes are never addressed.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
That's well for the circuit that doesn't have a
commission minister, which Ithink would be very, very few,
very very few.
They could just have two layvotes right.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
There's nothing that would exclude that.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
And that's along the what I know is a controversial
stance, but in terms of sizes ofcongregations, that there are a
lot of factors about changes inour church that we need to
address to better take care ofbusiness, and this commission
minister is just one of those.
But we have the same problemswith some of the other issues
about equality and balance ofpower and those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
How many commission ministers are there in the LCMS,
Jonathan?
Do any of you have thosenumbers?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
There are over 10,000 who are listed in the
statistical reports right now,who are on the roster, and
that's inclusive of those whoare active, those who are
emeriti and those who arecandidates.
But those 10,000 all have theability to be selected and, by
the way, it should be stated,this is the basis A long time
(30:36):
ago.
It actually originally was thenumber of commission ministers
who could be advisory delegatesat a convention was one for
every 30 in the Senate, and thatchanged a few decades ago to
become one to 60.
So right now one person out ofevery 60.
So you take that 10,000, nowone person out of every 60.
So you take that 10,000, divideit by 60, and that's how many
delegates can be elected to cometo synodical conventions as
(30:56):
advisory delegates, and thatnumber has been fairly
consistent.
That was pointed out in thislast report because districts
are serious about selectingthose.
In NID I think we have 13 or 14to represent the number of
delegates that we have, andlarger districts, like all three
of ours in Texas and PacificSouthwest, have a dozen or more.
(31:19):
Maybe that we can select.
Some districts only have one ortwo, but it's representative in
that sense.
So we have the ability to haveadvisory delegates at least
elected on a regular basis andsent to conventions, jess Noble.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Hey, this is helpful.
I'm praying for change alongthese lines.
I'm grateful for the districtsthat are giving at least
advisory voice, representationat our district conventions, and
praying that a solution cancome at the national level as
well.
Let's close with somethingthat's positive.
Let's close with somethingthat's positive.
Let's close with give me thevalues, the top three values,
(31:56):
that a pastor, because pastorscome out and we're like you know
, I may be in team, I may besold.
You know, I don't necessarilyknow how to lead a team per se.
I mean, I have a lot to learnas I come out of seminary, and
that was definitely the case forme.
You come out though what aretop three values, or even like
(32:16):
dreams for how commissionministers and pastors would just
start to work together.
How do they team?
Well, and Audrey, I'll go toyou first, because you've
experienced the power of workingwith amazing pastors who see
you value.
You want to elevate your voiceand leadership influence in the
local congregation.
We'll just start with you,audrey.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , I've been gifted with some
amazing team pastors.
First of all, they do understandteam ministry and some of that
is the experiences that they'vehad throughout the years.
But secondly, their door isopen for me to have conversation
with them.
That's a lot of it.
They pray with me.
(32:56):
They look at me as a valid,integral part of the entire team
that I come with some expertise, entire team that I come with
some expertise, and they usuallysit down with me and we
brainstorm and dream and visiontogether.
(33:18):
They pray for me, they walkwith me, they encourage me and I
hope I do the same with them aswell, and so a lot of that and
a lot of that it was with anykind of relationship.
Right, the ones that I look andgo these were huge mentors in
my life and huge team connectingpeople are those that have been
(33:40):
open to me, sitting down and useven rustling through the hard
and praying and spending time ofconfession and absolving each
and all of that, forgiving eachother moments and it's just that
building of a relationship witheach other.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So it's all about it's all about relationship.
Bob, anything to add there interms of how pastors and
commission ministers worktogether?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Maybe to share a model, as we're, as we shared
from our district models of howto write an overture that would
include these specific thingsand also memorialize Senate to.
To consider it, it's always akind of the last thing to do to
keep the pot stirring and stuffare kind of the last thing to do
to keep the pot stirring andstuff.
One of the things we decided todo that worked really well for
us is that in our districtconvention we sat the first time
we used the tool of thepre-advisory on the screen.
We recruited 30 commissionministers to be representatives
(34:50):
for us.
Now we're a big district, wehad all those resources.
We could do that kind of thing.
What we did with them then is wesat them at the convention
floor between lay people andpastors and we trained them to
say, as the vote is hitting thefloor, you've already read the
thing.
Ok, you know this is coming up,and now there it is, and you
(35:10):
got it in front of you that theywould turn to the layperson and
say, if this one passes, howdoes that affect your church?
How does that affect yourschool, pastor, if this one
passed?
Is that a helpful thing for you?
There was conversation on thefloor before the advisory vote
was given.
It wasn't perfect, but it was agreat attempt and we're going
(35:34):
to do it again in our districtconvention now coming up at the
end of June.
Not sit them in their ownsection, but sit them so that
they can talk before they evenapproach.
Here's what we're going to dowith this resolution.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That's awesome, bob.
Jonathan, any thoughts on avision for commission ministers
and pastors working togetherboth on the floor but just
practically day in and day out?
Speaker 4 (35:56):
Just the word language.
So how we talk about ministry,how we refer to us not we or
they and this is true also forthose who aren't on the roster.
I mean in any given ministryteam.
Also for those who aren't onthe roster, I mean in any given
ministry team, whether it's witha school or without a school,
whether it's big or small, weare together in ministry and
we're working on behalf of thecongregation.
(36:18):
And by saying we all the time,and using the word ministry and
minister easily and freely.
And there are people for whomthat's easy, there are people
for whom that's not so easy.
But it's so important to say itpublicly, and not just at the
congregational or local level,but at the district level and at
the synodical level.
And it's like anybody in anypublic figure.
(36:39):
When you hear the terminology,when you see it written that way
, when it's exemplified andmodeled, it becomes more of a
norm.
And we don't have that as wellas I wish we did at many levels.
I just wish that we could dothat more freely.
It takes a lot of confidenceand it takes security to talk
like that, but to be able to dothat as easily as we are here,
(37:01):
publicly, I think would help toincrease the cause, so I'd pray
for more of that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, I was just thinking about my leadership
team right now and, audrey, Ibet it's pretty similar in your
makeup I only have two ordainedpastors out of the 12.
And then there's four, and wedon't even talk this way, just
we're all together beforecommission ministers, and then
the other half dozen are lay menand women that are just
(37:29):
uniquely gifted in our contextto serve and, like there is I
think it's Walther and many ofthe reformers the pastor's job,
one of our jobs, it's word andsacrament, obviously, but as it
relates to the way we teamtogether to advance the message
of Jesus, my call is to elevatethe voice of the other, wherever
(37:52):
they happen to be, and, in turn, honor leads to honor and
respect, right, and in turn,part of the lay call is to
elevate the voice of the pastorto say we need one another, and
that puts pride away.
Now, pride always is attacking,right, but that helps put pride
away to say I really, reallyneed you.
(38:14):
And if we miss on the basics,which the basics are love, it's
like Paul talked about this,right, if you miss on this, if
you miss on honor and respect,outdo one another in showing
honor and care and deference forone another.
But I feel right now in thesynod that we're struggling with
this in showing honor and careand deference for one another.
But I feel right now in thesynod that we're struggling with
this, showing honor to all ofthe gifted people, where would
(38:36):
we be, apart from all of theparts of the body of Christ
playing their role?
And the pastor is important.
But, my goodness, if it all ison the pastor's shoulder, we are
going to fail miserably.
Thankfully it's on God'sshoulders, the Spirit's
shoulders, and then going tofail miserably.
Thankfully it's on God'sshoulders, the Spirit's
shoulders.
And then it's about the church.
It's not just about the pastor.
(38:56):
If there's one point ofemphasis that this podcast has
had over the time, we believethat the voice of the pastor has
become imbalanced in the LCMSand we need to, by the Spirit's
power, include all of the voicesin our synod to be heard.
We need you desperately and Ithink not just commission
ministers, but the lay men andwomen in our church.
I'm praying you become moreconnected and concerned for the
(39:19):
imbalance toward the voice ofthe pastor at all different
levels in our church.
Audrey, anything to say thereas we're closing up?
This has been a lot of fun in akind of uncomfortable way, to
be honest.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, as I'm like thinking through, like what you
said, I mean, certainly it's allabout Jesus, only about Jesus,
always and only about Jesus, andI look and go.
It was exemplified to me sowell early on in ministry and
I'm constantly praying andthinking about that.
How do I continually show?
(39:51):
How do I get down and wash feet?
How do I be in team ministryand use the language of we and
really yes, surrender to Jesusto say what's my next best step
in being in team ministry withpastors, lay people, other
(40:12):
commission ministers, amen?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Amen.
Any closing comments?
Bob, I'll go to you and thenclose to Jonathan.
Closing comments.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Appreciate the conversation.
In the very beginning of mestarting to work on this in 2019
, 2020, I realized that one ofthe things that we have to do to
create change is we have totrain and talk and model with
(40:39):
our own commission ministers thevalue of being in a district
and what that district does foryou and the value of being part
of Senate, and that those voicesare needed.
Okay, because they haveperspectives that you know that
are different.
And so in the beginning I knew,hey, even if it said, okay,
(41:00):
it's done, commission ministers,you can vote, Would they
elatedly run into districtconventions and Senate
conventions saying, yeah, I getto vote?
No, they won't.
Okay, we have to recruit themand train them and do them,
because they've been taught itdoesn't count and they've been
taught by some of the thingsthat we've been speaking to.
(41:20):
So to have this conversationand share it with three other
brothers and sisters isrefreshing.
Thank you for taking the leadon that.
I kind of heard what you werehearing and you almost had a
summary just a few moments ago,but for you, a pastor, to say,
(41:41):
hey, let's open thisconversation and use this tool
to begin to continue the goodwork that the Lord has given us,
so thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Amen, honored Bob.
Grateful for you, jonathan.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
Yeah, my fear is for those that we're trying to
recruit, to identify and recruitand bring in and retain into
ministry.
There are a growing number ofdisincentives for that.
Whether it's perceived orwhether it's reality, there are
things that are making ittougher and tougher for thinking
about what it would be like,even if they feel called to that
(42:16):
ministry, that there arechallenges to it.
So we need to deal with thosethings.
But we also need to make surethat they understand the right
reason.
As Audrey said, it's all aboutJesus, it's about service, it's
about the call, and I have tomake sure that we also remind
everybody all the great ways inwhich serving and being involved
are there today.
There are lots of ways withinour districts, in our
(42:37):
communities and in the church.
We have floor committees.
We have a lot of agencies thatare making use of people in
these areas.
There are tremendous ways inwhich we can serve.
So it's not at all a negativething right down the road we're
picking on certain things rightnow, but we need to remind
people that they really arecalled into those ministries,
they're appreciated and thatthere are opportunities to serve
(43:00):
God in full-time and part-timeways.
As long as we can do thattogether, we can do it joyfully
and we can deal with the otherchallenges that we face.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Amen, bob, jonathan, audrey, what a joy to be with
you today.
This is Lead Time, like,subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take in thispodcast, pray that this was
helpful for you and if you'vegot a commission minister who
has felt some of these feelings,hopefully they know they're not
alone and I just really, reallyam grateful for all of the men
(43:31):
and women who are serving 10,000strong, plus hopefully more to
come, through our wonderfulConcordias.
My goodness, do we haveexcellent training mechanisms
there.
I'm so grateful for thetraining I received there and
for those that go through thenthe Colicbee program to also be
rostered as commission ministers.
It's wonderful.
The water is warm, man.
(43:52):
The kingdom expanding water iswarm.
Jump on in.
Let's get after it in our localcontext to make the name of
Jesus known.
The days are too short to doanything otherwise.
This is Lead Time and we'll beback next week with another
fresh episode.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Jesus loves you episodes.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day,jesus loves you.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Thanks Bob, thanks Jonathan, thanks Audrey, thanks
Pam.
You've been listening to LeadTime, a podcast of the Unite
Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(44:33):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
This is Lead Time.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Welcome to Lead Time.
Tim Allman here.
Jack Calberg has a day off.
I pray the joy of Jesus is withyou that you got your water,
you worked out, you're movingyour body, maybe you're driving
into wherever it is.
You're going to advance thecause of Christ, be it a local
church, in your marketplacebusiness.
But you just want to learn, andthat's what Lead Time is all
about.
And I got three guests todaythat are going to educate us on
(00:25):
the topic of commissionedministers in the Lutheran Church
Missouri Synod.
I have Bob McKinney with me.
He is a 48-year DCE praise God,eight calls, three states.
He has served as a marriage andfamily therapist, married for
54 years to his wife Eunice.
What a joy.
They have two adult daughters,one granddaughter.
(00:47):
Hey, Bob, how you doing,brother?
What a joy to get to know youtoday.
Good to be with you guys.
Okay, let's do it.
Let's do it.
We also have Dr Jonathan Labs.
He is serving as the executivedirector of the Lutheran
Education Association for 28years and he has 48 years of
Lutheran education experience.
This is going to be a lot offun, Dr Labs.
(01:08):
How are you doing, brother?
I'm great, thank you.
Yeah, this is going to be good.
And then we have Audrey DunzineWarner.
Audrey and I got to hang out atone of our Accelerator ULC
gatherings.
She has served as a DCE for 31years.
In the last almost three yearsnow working with my brother,
Pastor Dan Shetman, at GloriaDay in Nassau Bay.
You doing well, Audrey, Great.
All right, let's kick it off.
(01:30):
Jonathan, go to you.
Give us the overview of thehistory of commission ministers
in the LCMS.
How has it evolved over theyears?
Obviously we're going to get tothe topic of commission
ministers, amazing men and women, serving as DCEs, directors of
(01:50):
outreach, DCOs we haven'tDirectors of Christian Outreach,
haven't heard about them in awhile.
We also have, obviously, awhole bunch of administrators
and educators who are servingunder this kind of commission
ministry banner.
You're represented atgatherings like Kindle that's
our DCE gatherings and LutheranEducator Association gatherings
(02:11):
that, Jonathan, you kind of puttogether.
But as it relates to districtand synod representation, it's
been hard to figure out what todo with you guys.
Where do they fit?
So, yeah, that's where we'regoing to be hanging out today.
Jonathan, give us a little bitof the history.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
The good news is we've had no problem figuring
out what to do.
So our calling is very clearand that's been a part of the
real interesting dynamics ofthis over the years.
We've all been a part of a lotof this through many of the
years, but none of us go back tothe very beginning of this,
which is really the beginning ofthe Synod in 1847.
(02:46):
As we look back, it's a littlebit surprising sometimes to
realize, you know, this problemisn't new.
From the very beginning, fromthe onset, with the LCMS, it was
constructed in the same way itoperates right now, and there
are two basic tenets to thatthat are written.
One is the equality ofcongregations, which at that
time were several dozen and ofcourse today are many more.
(03:08):
But the idea behind all of that, which has become debated today
as well, is that everycongregation has an equal vote.
And then the other part of thatis the balance of power and
quoting there that would not bea term I would use, but from
other documents the balance ofpower between clergy and laity
and the fact that there would bean equal representation of
(03:30):
those congregations.
And then, from the beginning,there was the understanding that
there were those who were noteligible to vote, and there were
three categories that werelisted in documents that we
found.
One was pastors, who aren'tauthorized to be the
representative from theircongregation.
Secondly, there were candidatesfor the office of pastor, and
then at that time, there wereteachers.
(03:51):
So from the beginning it wasdesigned that there was this
third category that would not beeligible to vote, even though
and I want to make sure Iemphasize this because a lot of
people don't know it theconstitution of the synod, from
its inception, involved teachersas members of the synod.
There are three categories ofmembership congregations, clergy
(04:14):
and commission and so it'simportant to understand this.
All started with that way backat that point.
Just one point to make, andthen there are a lot of other
things to talk about.
The word commission came later.
Teachers were obviously theones who were, pretty much from
the beginning, a part of thatministry, along with the pastors
.
But as there were a variety ofministries that were formed over
(04:38):
the years, the word commissionminister came in in the 70s, 80s
, as it was all being developed,and so the bylaws started
reflecting the development, thetraining and the commissioning
of those workers.
So that group had differentnames along the way, but it's
essentially based on the samepremise.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
That's interesting Commissioned and I would include
and I got a whole bunch ofworship leaders that are
probably mad at me right nowthat I didn't include all of our
worship leaders.
But there's a big bucketcategory in Synod and you are
rostered, so you count but youdon't get a say in who is
(05:17):
leading in our various districtsand Synod.
That's been the general story,and the reason is then the
professional and I hate usingthis word as well, but the
professional or rostered churchworker role would have a larger
voice than the laity, and sowe've kind of just said we're
going to have pastor, we'regoing to have the lay man or
(05:40):
woman be able to vote, but butcommission ministers, you're in
but you don't get a voice.
Bob, anything more to add Iknow you've been thinking about
this for quite a while to thathistory that Jonathan just
shared, as I researched itcoming out of Miami's convention
and read the document that cameout of COP coming out of Miami.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
I haven't got it right in front of me and before
I'd say this in a microphone Iwould want to count this to make
sure.
But as I tracked backwards, theSenate's own document said that
this issue has come up about 16times in the cycles of Synod
(06:26):
and district conventions.
16 times in Synod, okay, andthere was one gap there of about
40 years or 35 years where itdidn't come up.
But it's resurged itself thatmany times.
And then the current position Ithink is the resurgence has
gotten some wheels by using oneof the tools that put Christian
(06:52):
ministers and a voice in theactual district convention floor
, and so that tool is expandingand there seems to be a little
bit more of a movement.
So this is a timelyconversation.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah, that's good.
Can you give me a little bit ofwhat is happening now at a
number of districts, as we'rekind of trying at the district
level at least, which is, Iwould say, more simple than the
national convention?
Right, you'd think it'd becommensurate, but I think it is
more complex at the nationallevel.
But districts are trying somecreative things.
(07:25):
My district in the PSD istrying some creative things.
Would you give me and there'sprobably a variety of different
things that are being triedCould you give us some of the
variety of methods to have thecommission voice at least be
heard by those that are voting?
Yeah, who would you like torespond there?
Speaker 3 (07:40):
Yeah, go ahead, bob.
You start with Jonathan, whohas longevity of using a tool
that puts puts commissionministers voice from out of the
floor committee status right onthe on the floor of district
conventions.
But he's done it in NID.
He's watched that happen overnumerous cycles.
(08:02):
That's kind of the mother, yes.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
What happened.
Pastor Bill Hameis was presidentat the time and he decided that
, beyond our ability to go tothe microphone and speak, which
has been there all along, itwould be more important to be
able to have the advisorydelegates also actually vote in
a preliminary way to give adviceby their vote, vote in a
(08:26):
preliminary way to give adviceby their vote.
And so it actually started withgreen and red placards that were
handed to the delegates, theadvisory delegates and, by the
way, not just the commission,teachers, dces, but also the
other advisory delegates thatwere pastors there, and then
they would hold them up and theywould actually look at those as
a body ahead of time.
With technology, eventually wewere also given the voting
(08:47):
devices, and that's what'shappening in many of the
districts right now.
We just had our NID conventionin March and so they would take
a preliminary vote, we wouldvote as the others would do,
everybody would see it, and thenthey go on to the main.
Vote Didn't take place for allthe votes or for elections, but
for a good number of them, andthat's been happening over, as
Bob said, a few cycles.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
That's great, audrey, anything more.
What have you experienced?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yeah, lots of conversation in the last, you
know, several years at the atthe root of the commission
ministers and in their pocketsof places from NADC to LEA.
To that we need to educate,educate, educate and talk about
it in our little pockets ofinfluence around the Synod.
(09:34):
And so it's coming to thesurface much stronger than it
has been years ago, just becausepeople are like, hey, we have
boots on the ground here umyears ago.
Um, just because people arelike on hey, we have boots on
the ground here, um, we are theones that are immersed in the
middle of ministry, um, uh, inour congregations and our
schools, in our, um, in ourplaces of influence, and so, um,
(09:56):
let's have conversation abouthow we can have more of a voice
in that.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting.
So what do you think is at theroot of this?
I mean, you have a topic that'sbeen brought up, bob, 16 times.
That's extraordinary Without asatisfactory conclusion.
And I don't like power balanceof power.
I said it.
Unfortunately, man, it's verypower centric and those who have
(10:23):
it and those who don't, and andthen I think, the estimation
that that other people want it.
I'm going to throw something outright now.
Uh, I do not do this podcast tobecome a leader at a district
or national level at all, likethat seems that that is the one
of the furthest things from mymind.
It sounds very, very difficultto do.
(10:45):
The reason I'm just going toexpose why I do this podcast is
for the advancement of thegospel at the local level,
whatever it takes to talk aboutthings that help the local
church thrive, and that could befirst article realities, how
healthy teams function, all theway to theology.
We need to talk about thedifficult points in theology for
us to unite to advance thecause of Christ, and I think the
(11:07):
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod,confessional Lutheranism has a
strong potential right now andthis is we're going to see if
it's realized a strong potentialto be a real force for kingdom
expanding good in the currentclimate of a post-Christian,
pre-christian day and age inwhich we live.
That's why I do this.
So power is not my motive, noteven close to that.
(11:29):
But as it relates to thecommission minister, it would be
an imbalance of power manypeople say.
So what is it that keeps usfrom having some sort of a
satisfactory conclusion?
To make sure, commissionministers are voting.
And I'll just throw somethingout.
We've had difference of opinionregarding women in ministry and
(11:51):
their voice being heard, andobviously I'd love to go to you,
jonathan.
I mean, we used to not evenhave women as teachers, like a
century ago, right?
I mean we didn't even haveeducators.
And so we're trying to respondto.
Women are in these various andthey have influence in these
very.
Oh, I don't know how this feelsfor us as a synod.
Is that a little bit of what'sbehind it?
(12:12):
I'm just teasing at why thishas been such a difficult,
difficult conversation to cometo a satisfactory conclusion.
It seems like we should be ableto figure something out,
jonathan.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
I'll go to you first and then we'll talk about why it
is an issue for some simplybecause of lack of knowledge or
fear or just not being trained,you know, into what ministry
really is.
I mean, it's not scriptural,it's not doctrinal.
Ministry is ministry, missionis mission, and you know, we
teach it and we profess it andwe confess it together, and yet
(12:43):
there's this human fear thatcomes into play and then there's
the power part of it that is tome just dysfunctional.
So in our church body we don'thave the ability to make a lot
of changes in many areas.
This isn't the only issuethat's been going down through
decades that we've been tryingto address over the years.
But when you have the samepeople with the same structure
(13:04):
over all of these decadesperpetuating the same process
Bob mentioned how many timesthis has formally come to the
surface, but the reason nothinghappens is that it's put aside
in omnibus resolutions.
It's not brought to the floor.
We had a strong series of yearsfrom Dr Kucinich back in 2005,
where there was some realprogress being made toward
(13:26):
sweeping changes and dramaticthings that could happen in the
Senate, and after four yearsthere was a formal report made,
some very progressive thingsthat were suggested and brought
to the convention and there werea whole bunch of changes that
were made and there were a wholebunch of things that weren't
this particular one.
There was a very specificsuggestion to modify our bylaws
(13:47):
so that we could make thesechanges, because it's all just
polity that we have the abilityto do that and it was never
brought to the floor because ofstrategies that were keeping it
from there.
It's a lot like our governmentand filibustering and all of
that.
I mean it's dangerous the waythat that can keep us from
progressing, and it happens atthe district levels as well.
(14:10):
But it's just.
I've seen these conventions nowfor the last 35, 40 years.
All of us have experienced thatand it just doesn't change.
It has that inability to beable to move forward and to be
able to make those changes andin a church body that's changing
and growing in a variety ofways that are so different than
(14:32):
before, we have to finddifferent ways of making those
decisions.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Audrey, anything to add?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, ditto right before.
We have to find different waysof making those decisions.
Audrey, anything to add?
Yeah, I'm like, yeah, dittoright.
I think like the underlyingpiece of this is fear.
There's some sort of fear.
I was telling somebody the otherday that I started 31, really
32 years ago in ministry andwomen in ministry.
We've come a long way, but it'sbeen a lot of intentional
(14:57):
movement forward andconversations and tilling the
soil and raising up people thatcan have a loving conversation
around that.
And sometimes it's reallyoppressive to some.
They'll look and they'll go.
This is so hard because it's sodaunting To take it on.
(15:22):
It's like eating an elephant,right?
You have to do those littletiny bites at a time.
And actually, bob and John asall three of us have been
visiting the last three or fouryears together we're like, yeah,
we just got to start on thatdistrict level and continue.
Just keep the conversationgoing, keep the conversation
going, because it's so importantand there are so many people
(15:42):
who really truly are on the samepage that we're on too.
It's just like how do we breakthrough that wall so that it
doesn't just keep going back tothe old pot of where we were in
leadership?
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yeah, bob Tim.
I think, maybe to come from thehistory and then move to pretty
recent history.
One of the tools that's beingdeployed is that commission
ministers have somerepresentatives that are on the
(16:20):
district floor and they have theability to share advice before
the vote is taken on thebusiness issues not on elections
, but on the business issues andthose numbers are put on the
screen as a perspective not as avote, but as a perspective,
sort of a snapshot, sort ofhere's where we are as
(16:41):
commission ministers on thatparticular thing, and in PSD,
it's amazing to me that thepercentage of the vote meaning
for and against thosepercentages almost mirrors the
actual vote that comes from thepastors and the laypersons.
Now, that happened last year,not last year, in our last 2022
(17:06):
cycle, but we didn't have a realcontentious convention.
It was pretty nice, okay.
It was pretty nice okay.
What happened then, coming outof Miami and then moving into
(17:27):
Milwaukee, is this tool and someinstructions in terms of how to
use it.
As we pass that around Theninto Milwaukee, seven districts
had utilized this tool orintended to utilize that tool,
are intended to utilize thattool.
Now, that's as Audria said.
We need to start at thedistrict level, I think, in
order to affect the Senate level.
But one of the strategies is iflast cycle we had seven, what
if we had teens?
(17:49):
What if we had 13 or 14 nexttime?
And next cycle, what if we arein the 20s?
Out of the 30, some odddistricts OK, that's a slow way
to say hey, you know, the placedidn't fall apart, the pastors
didn't get run out of town andwhat happened is commission
ministers were able to say whothey are and what they do and
(18:12):
what they bring to the ministryof our church that we all love
and we're trained with.
But that never.
Those seven things never gotout of the floor.
Committee never made it to thefloor.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
So for that to happen , the districts that are
utilizing this advisory it's nota vote but advisory opinion
using technology, pre-voting onnon-elected positions or issues.
I guess that model could besomething that is used.
(18:45):
A circuit could have a pastorand most every circuit has some
sort of a commission minister, Iwould imagine across the synod
right.
So every circuit could have oneadvisory delegate who are going
to offer their opinion prior tosome of our issues, some of the
resolutions that are gettingvoted on.
Is that something you wouldlike to write up a resolution
(19:06):
toward, and has that beenactually written?
And this is what I, dr Labs, Ithink this is what you're saying
right.
We've sent on this resolutionfrom districts and then it gets
in a floor committee, gets kindof sidelined.
Does that happen a number oftimes, jonathan?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Well, it has, and there have been a number of very
specific things and a number ofgeneral things that have been
brought.
Bob was referring to coming tothe Milwaukee convention.
There were some ideas that werebeing brought out and there was
a report that was generated asa result of a study and, by the
way, lots of great informationand history and a lot of things
were brought out about that butit generally concluded that we
(19:45):
shouldn't go ahead this was whatwas told to the convention
because we haven't been able tofind ways to do it before.
That's my analysis of it andthere were a lot of things in
there that just didn't makesense to me.
So we keep perpetuating that.
It didn't allow for a new way oflooking at it and I think the
(20:06):
ability for the Senate to beable to consider new ideas has
to come with an openness to havethat kind of dialogue on the
floor and not cut things at theknees.
Even in our district and NIDwhere this was started, there
were three opportunities toconsider a resolution from three
congregations about new ways oflooking at voting and even in
(20:27):
our district it was put intoomnibus and it never even got to
the district floor, so it wentbackward at the district level
when we were making progress.
All of those things are because, again, we have a system that
doesn't allow us to be able tocontinue to bring things out and
to be open enough to talkingabout it and when we had great
opportunities, like we did inthe late 2000s, from 2005 to
(20:49):
2010, it comes to one conventionand then it's cut and then you
don't see it again, unless it'sbrought up afterward and then
it's cut and then you don't seeit again unless it's brought up
afterward.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well, you all have such a profound heart for Jesus.
He has a love for you and,obviously, educating young and
old with the gospel.
Praise, be to God.
And part of our characterdevelopment is handling
difficult conversations and Idon't understand why we can't
talk about things publicly, onpodcasts or whatever, and we can
(21:21):
disagree agreeably.
I don't.
That's been one of the biggestI causes for concern for me over
the seven, eight years I'vebeen doing.
This podcast is inviting peopleon that.
I know I have a difference ofopinion.
I'm not going to.
We can still be brothers andhave differences of opinion and
and have open discourse.
I think it's a great day andage in which we live for the
church to model public discoursein a healthy, constructive way
(21:45):
where we're going to agree onway more than we disagree on.
For sure we're in the samehouse, right?
We're in the same churchcommunity.
So any thoughts, audrey, on whywe struggle so much to have
difficult conversations in thesynod?
Speaker 5 (21:59):
Not having enough education about it,
conversations about it.
I think it ultimately comesdown to fear, like the fear of
the unknown.
Right In 2025, we should beable to sit at a table, each of
us have a seat at the table andbe able to wrestle with that
together in love, in the name ofJesus, and the richness of that
(22:22):
, the richness of the wrestlingof that conversation anytime
I've had really good wrestlingconversations where my opinion
is completely different than theperson across the table.
It has sharpened me.
Sharpened me to a place ofwhere my heart has been open to
(22:42):
really understanding the wholepicture of what it is and seeing
the movement of the Holy Spiritin it all, rather than shutting
it down and not allowing theHoly Spirit to have a bigger
movement in this than right.
It's just, it's all of thatkind of stuff.
I know, as John and Bob and Ihave had lots and lots of
(23:03):
conversations around this lotsof Zoom, calls on steps to take,
continually moving thisconversation forward.
One of the things that Bob hassaid and I don't know where the
quote came from, but I rememberit and I connect it to Bob is he
said if it wasn't for thecommission minister, the face of
the gospel would be differentin our synod, and that's so rich
(23:27):
to me to say to invite us tohave a seat at that table for
conversation.
And it is not a power thing atleast not in our hearts.
It's not a power thing, it's a.
It's a because we are part ofthe part of the entire community
.
We're, we're commissionedentire community.
(23:56):
We're commissioned, we'retrained, we're rostered, we work
on the boots on the ground, inour places and spaces that we
minister to children, youth andtheir families throughout the
Senate, and so God is speakingto us and using us in powerful
ways in our local places andspaces, and so to not have a
voice then on the national levelis just unheard of.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
Bob, anything more to say there?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
I think of some of the descriptors that we use for
ourselves in commission ministry, and a helpful one is that we
consider ourselves to be andtrain people coming out of
schools, that we are secondchair people, and if that card
(24:44):
could be played more, that wouldbe helpful to knock down some
of this fear thing that we're inteam.
We're linked to a pastor.
Whether he's good, bad or ugly,you know, we're linked to that
pastor and what happens there iscritical in terms of the
(25:05):
tentacles that commissionministers have into the
community through their schools,through their preschools,
through their youth ministry,those kinds of things.
And what we do is we bringpeople to know who Jesus Christ
is and to build into them adesire to be baptized, into that
.
And that's the pastor'sfunction, that's what we do.
(25:28):
We bring them in in that kindof way, not fearful at all about
any kind of takeover of power.
It's ministry and it's allabout Jesus and it's bringing
people to Jesus Christ as theirLord and Savior.
That's what we know and that'swhat we love and I don't think
we play.
We're second chair, we'relinked to a team.
Speaker 4 (25:48):
I think the average parishioner in the Synod doesn't
realize that we are called intothe public ministry.
So this is what differentiatesin the way that it was intended
in the beginning, that this isthe reason that we are fully
members of Synod, because we area part of that public ministry.
Not Word and Sacrament totallythat's the pastor's public
(26:10):
ministry, but we're a part ofthat public ministry to not
warden sacrament totally that'sthe pastor's public ministry,
but we're a part of that publicministry to work on behalf of
the church.
That's why the call, that'swhat leads to the call and
that's why the distinction ofthe roster status, not over and
above anybody else, because wework in team now with a growing
majority of others who are inministry, who are a part of that
(26:30):
in our places, in our schools,in our congregations, in our
communities.
But there's a special callingfor those who are trained and
equipped for that and I thinkthat not to have those people
who are in that particularposition of public ministry in
part, not to be able to have thesame ability to be able to make
decisions and to be able toadvance and move things forward
(26:54):
by voting I know the excusesthat have been used in a lot of
the reports is that voice isenough and that's the way it
should be, and we just disagree.
It's like in the American publichow would you not allow
somebody who is a citizen of theUnited States to vote?
It just doesn't make sense tosuggest that somebody can speak
and not vote.
Somebody who is a citizen ofthe United States to vote.
It just doesn't make sense tosuggest that somebody can speak
and not vote.
It's a right and in our churchit's especially something that
(27:16):
needs to be addressed.
So it never has made sense.
There's certainly no scripturalor doctrinal reason for it not
to happen.
It's purely the ability of ourchurch not to be able to make
those changes.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Just thinking of one.
Has there ever been a time whenthe commission minister was
placed as a lay vote, like theywould have an opportunity to
have a commission minister?
Because I don't like that.
I don't think that's a greatanswer either, because I think
we need the lay vote.
You've been called into publicministry, so yeah, even as I'm
kind of throwing that out there,I don't think it's satisfactory
(27:49):
.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
So we've thrown out some it's a part of the
conundrum and it's been takenboth ways.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
You know there isn't an easy answer for it, but there
actually have been suggestionsand solutions, like I said in
that in that 2009 report thatmade a lot of sense.
That don't upset the balance.
You just have to look at itdifferently.
And was that solution theadvisory voice?
You just have to look at itdifferently.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
And was that solution the advisory voice.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
No, it was the voting voice.
It was one of the ways of yeah,I know NID spent a lot of time
on this and other districts didtoo.
When you look at the synodicalstructure, you don't have direct
representation fromcongregations anyway.
Right, you don't have 6,000.
That was changed at that oneconvention to have that for the
election of the president.
So that became the popular vote, so to speak, from all the
(28:34):
congregations.
But for everything else, westill have the circuit.
So it's at the circuit levelthat even some of the people who
are resistant to other ideasstarted thinking.
Maybe at the circuit level it'sall selected by congregation,
so we're not taking away fromthat.
But why should thecongregations in a circuit be
limited to just two voices?
Why not have three voices froma circuit and change that
(28:57):
structure that would allow for acommission minister to be one
of them?
You're not taking anything awayfrom congregations, you're just
adding additional votes.
There's nothing wrong with that, but that was the one that
never made it to the floor ofthat convention in 2010.
And then it's taken all thistime, for a variety of reasons,
(29:17):
that when you have differentideas that come back again, it's
hard to reintroduce them, butthere are very specific
suggestions that were raised andsometimes are never addressed.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
That's well for the circuit that doesn't have a
commission minister, which Ithink would be very, very few,
very very few.
They could just have two layvotes right.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
There's nothing that would exclude that.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
And that's along the what I know is a controversial
stance, but in terms of sizes ofcongregations, that there are a
lot of factors about changes inour church that we need to
address to better take care ofbusiness, and this commission
minister is just one of those.
But we have the same problemswith some of the other issues
about equality and balance ofpower and those kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
How many commission ministers are there in the LCMS,
Jonathan?
Do any of you have thosenumbers?
Speaker 4 (30:08):
There are over 10,000 who are listed in the
statistical reports right now,who are on the roster, and
that's inclusive of those whoare active, those who are
emeriti and those who arecandidates.
But those 10,000 all have theability to be selected and, by
the way, it should be stated,this is the basis A long time
(30:36):
ago.
It actually originally was thenumber of commission ministers
who could be advisory delegatesat a convention was one for
every 30 in the Senate, and thatchanged a few decades ago to
become one to 60.
So right now one person out ofevery 60.
So you take that 10,000, nowone person out of every 60.
So you take that 10,000, divideit by 60, and that's how many
delegates can be elected to cometo synodical conventions as
(30:56):
advisory delegates, and thatnumber has been fairly
consistent.
That was pointed out in thislast report because districts
are serious about selectingthose.
In NID I think we have 13 or 14to represent the number of
delegates that we have, andlarger districts, like all three
of ours in Texas and PacificSouthwest, have a dozen or more.
(31:19):
Maybe that we can select.
Some districts only have one ortwo, but it's representative in
that sense.
So we have the ability to haveadvisory delegates at least
elected on a regular basis andsent to conventions, jess Noble.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Hey, this is helpful.
I'm praying for change alongthese lines.
I'm grateful for the districtsthat are giving at least
advisory voice, representationat our district conventions, and
praying that a solution cancome at the national level as
well.
Let's close with somethingthat's positive.
Let's close with somethingthat's positive.
Let's close with give me thevalues, the top three values,
(31:56):
that a pastor, because pastorscome out and we're like you know
, I may be in team, I may besold.
You know, I don't necessarilyknow how to lead a team per se.
I mean, I have a lot to learnas I come out of seminary, and
that was definitely the case forme.
You come out though what aretop three values, or even like
(32:16):
dreams for how commissionministers and pastors would just
start to work together.
How do they team?
Well, and Audrey, I'll go toyou first, because you've
experienced the power of workingwith amazing pastors who see
you value.
You want to elevate your voiceand leadership influence in the
local congregation.
We'll just start with you,audrey.
Speaker 5 (32:36):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , I've been gifted with some
amazing team pastors.
First of all, they do understandteam ministry and some of that
is the experiences that they'vehad throughout the years.
But secondly, their door isopen for me to have conversation
with them.
That's a lot of it.
They pray with me.
(32:56):
They look at me as a valid,integral part of the entire team
that I come with some expertise, entire team that I come with
some expertise, and they usuallysit down with me and we
brainstorm and dream and visiontogether.
(33:18):
They pray for me, they walkwith me, they encourage me and I
hope I do the same with them aswell, and so a lot of that and
a lot of that it was with anykind of relationship.
Right, the ones that I look andgo these were huge mentors in
my life and huge team connectingpeople are those that have been
(33:40):
open to me, sitting down and useven rustling through the hard
and praying and spending time ofconfession and absolving each
and all of that, forgiving eachother moments and it's just that
building of a relationship witheach other.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
So it's all about it's all about relationship.
Bob, anything to add there interms of how pastors and
commission ministers worktogether?
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Maybe to share a model, as we're, as we shared
from our district models of howto write an overture that would
include these specific thingsand also memorialize Senate to.
To consider it, it's always akind of the last thing to do to
keep the pot stirring and stuffare kind of the last thing to do
to keep the pot stirring andstuff.
One of the things we decided todo that worked really well for
us is that in our districtconvention we sat the first time
we used the tool of thepre-advisory on the screen.
We recruited 30 commissionministers to be representatives
(34:50):
for us.
Now we're a big district, wehad all those resources.
We could do that kind of thing.
What we did with them then is wesat them at the convention
floor between lay people andpastors and we trained them to
say, as the vote is hitting thefloor, you've already read the
thing.
Ok, you know this is coming up,and now there it is, and you
(35:10):
got it in front of you that theywould turn to the layperson and
say, if this one passes, howdoes that affect your church?
How does that affect yourschool, pastor, if this one
passed?
Is that a helpful thing for you?
There was conversation on thefloor before the advisory vote
was given.
It wasn't perfect, but it was agreat attempt and we're going
(35:34):
to do it again in our districtconvention now coming up at the
end of June.
Not sit them in their ownsection, but sit them so that
they can talk before they evenapproach.
Here's what we're going to dowith this resolution.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
That's awesome, bob.
Jonathan, any thoughts on avision for commission ministers
and pastors working togetherboth on the floor but just
practically day in and day out?
Speaker 4 (35:56):
Just the word language.
So how we talk about ministry,how we refer to us not we or
they and this is true also forthose who aren't on the roster.
I mean in any given ministryteam.
Also for those who aren't onthe roster, I mean in any given
ministry team, whether it's witha school or without a school,
whether it's big or small, weare together in ministry and
we're working on behalf of thecongregation.
(36:18):
And by saying we all the time,and using the word ministry and
minister easily and freely.
And there are people for whomthat's easy, there are people
for whom that's not so easy.
But it's so important to say itpublicly, and not just at the
congregational or local level,but at the district level and at
the synodical level.
And it's like anybody in anypublic figure.
(36:39):
When you hear the terminology,when you see it written that way
, when it's exemplified andmodeled, it becomes more of a
norm.
And we don't have that as wellas I wish we did at many levels.
I just wish that we could dothat more freely.
It takes a lot of confidenceand it takes security to talk
like that, but to be able to dothat as easily as we are here,
(37:01):
publicly, I think would help toincrease the cause, so I'd pray
for more of that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, I was just thinking about my leadership
team right now and, audrey, Ibet it's pretty similar in your
makeup I only have two ordainedpastors out of the 12.
And then there's four, and wedon't even talk this way, just
we're all together beforecommission ministers, and then
the other half dozen are lay menand women that are just
(37:29):
uniquely gifted in our contextto serve and, like there is I
think it's Walther and many ofthe reformers the pastor's job,
one of our jobs, it's word andsacrament, obviously, but as it
relates to the way we teamtogether to advance the message
of Jesus, my call is to elevatethe voice of the other, wherever
(37:52):
they happen to be, and, in turn, honor leads to honor and
respect, right, and in turn,part of the lay call is to
elevate the voice of the pastorto say we need one another, and
that puts pride away.
Now, pride always is attacking,right, but that helps put pride
away to say I really, reallyneed you.
(38:14):
And if we miss on the basics,which the basics are love, it's
like Paul talked about this,right, if you miss on this, if
you miss on honor and respect,outdo one another in showing
honor and care and deference forone another.
But I feel right now in thesynod that we're struggling with
this in showing honor and careand deference for one another.
But I feel right now in thesynod that we're struggling with
this, showing honor to all ofthe gifted people, where would
(38:36):
we be, apart from all of theparts of the body of Christ
playing their role?
And the pastor is important.
But, my goodness, if it all ison the pastor's shoulder, we are
going to fail miserably.
Thankfully it's on God'sshoulders, the Spirit's
shoulders, and then going tofail miserably.
Thankfully it's on God'sshoulders, the Spirit's
shoulders.
And then it's about the church.
It's not just about the pastor.
(38:56):
If there's one point ofemphasis that this podcast has
had over the time, we believethat the voice of the pastor has
become imbalanced in the LCMSand we need to, by the Spirit's
power, include all of the voicesin our synod to be heard.
We need you desperately and Ithink not just commission
ministers, but the lay men andwomen in our church.
I'm praying you become moreconnected and concerned for the
(39:19):
imbalance toward the voice ofthe pastor at all different
levels in our church.
Audrey, anything to say thereas we're closing up?
This has been a lot of fun in akind of uncomfortable way, to
be honest.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
Yeah, as I'm like thinking through, like what you
said, I mean, certainly it's allabout Jesus, only about Jesus,
always and only about Jesus, andI look and go.
It was exemplified to me sowell early on in ministry and
I'm constantly praying andthinking about that.
How do I continually show?
(39:51):
How do I get down and wash feet?
How do I be in team ministryand use the language of we and
really yes, surrender to Jesusto say what's my next best step
in being in team ministry withpastors, lay people, other
(40:12):
commission ministers, amen?
Speaker 2 (40:14):
Amen.
Any closing comments?
Bob, I'll go to you and thenclose to Jonathan.
Closing comments.
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Appreciate the conversation.
In the very beginning of mestarting to work on this in 2019
, 2020, I realized that one ofthe things that we have to do to
create change is we have totrain and talk and model with
(40:39):
our own commission ministers thevalue of being in a district
and what that district does foryou and the value of being part
of Senate, and that those voicesare needed.
Okay, because they haveperspectives that you know that
are different.
And so in the beginning I knew,hey, even if it said, okay,
(41:00):
it's done, commission ministers,you can vote, Would they
elatedly run into districtconventions and Senate
conventions saying, yeah, I getto vote?
No, they won't.
Okay, we have to recruit themand train them and do them,
because they've been taught itdoesn't count and they've been
taught by some of the thingsthat we've been speaking to.
(41:20):
So to have this conversationand share it with three other
brothers and sisters isrefreshing.
Thank you for taking the leadon that.
I kind of heard what you werehearing and you almost had a
summary just a few moments ago,but for you, a pastor, to say,
(41:41):
hey, let's open thisconversation and use this tool
to begin to continue the goodwork that the Lord has given us,
so thanks, Tim.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Amen, honored Bob.
Grateful for you, jonathan.
Speaker 4 (41:53):
Yeah, my fear is for those that we're trying to
recruit, to identify and recruitand bring in and retain into
ministry.
There are a growing number ofdisincentives for that.
Whether it's perceived orwhether it's reality, there are
things that are making ittougher and tougher for thinking
about what it would be like,even if they feel called to that
(42:16):
ministry, that there arechallenges to it.
So we need to deal with thosethings.
But we also need to make surethat they understand the right
reason.
As Audrey said, it's all aboutJesus, it's about service, it's
about the call, and I have tomake sure that we also remind
everybody all the great ways inwhich serving and being involved
are there today.
There are lots of ways withinour districts, in our
(42:37):
communities and in the church.
We have floor committees.
We have a lot of agencies thatare making use of people in
these areas.
There are tremendous ways inwhich we can serve.
So it's not at all a negativething right down the road we're
picking on certain things rightnow, but we need to remind
people that they really arecalled into those ministries,
they're appreciated and thatthere are opportunities to serve
(43:00):
God in full-time and part-timeways.
As long as we can do thattogether, we can do it joyfully
and we can deal with the otherchallenges that we face.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
Amen, bob, jonathan, audrey, what a joy to be with
you today.
This is Lead Time, like,subscribe, comment.
Wherever it is you take in thispodcast, pray that this was
helpful for you and if you'vegot a commission minister who
has felt some of these feelings,hopefully they know they're not
alone and I just really, reallyam grateful for all of the men
(43:31):
and women who are serving 10,000strong, plus hopefully more to
come, through our wonderfulConcordias.
My goodness, do we haveexcellent training mechanisms
there.
I'm so grateful for thetraining I received there and
for those that go through thenthe Colicbee program to also be
rostered as commission ministers.
It's wonderful.
The water is warm, man.
(43:52):
The kingdom expanding water iswarm.
Jump on in.
Let's get after it in our localcontext to make the name of
Jesus known.
The days are too short to doanything otherwise.
This is Lead Time and we'll beback next week with another
fresh episode.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day.
Jesus loves you episodes.
It's a good day.
Go and make it a great day,jesus loves you.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Thanks Bob, thanks Jonathan, thanks Audrey, thanks
Pam.
You've been listening to LeadTime, a podcast of the Unite
Leadership Collective.
The ULC's mission is tocollaborate with the local
church to discover, develop anddeploy leaders through biblical
Lutheran doctrine and innovativemethods To partner with us in
this gospel message.
Subscribe to our channel, thengo to theuniteleadershiporg to
create your free login forexclusive material and resources
(44:33):
and then to explore ways inwhich you can sponsor an episode
.
Thanks for listening and staytuned for next week's episode.
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